Barbados Underground

Can Indians And Blacks Co-exist In Barbados?

January 29, 2008 · 230 Comments

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Click on image to hear BBC report on Guyana massacre

Analysts Fear Racial Tension Could Spark Further Violence

Calm was reported on Tuesday, in areas of Guyana affected by tensions fueled by the murders of 11 people by a suspected criminal gang last weekend. On Monday, police fired teargas and pellets to disperse hundreds of protesters blocking roads along the country’s east coast. Some groups and analysts, including the human rights association, have expressed concern that tension between Guyana’s ethnic communities could boil over into further violence.

Source: BBC Report

It is prophetic that BU published the article entitled Can Barbados Avoid Escalating Crime & Violence In Neighbouring Trinidad & Guyana? on the 26 January 2008. Our article coincided with the massacre of 11 persons in rural Guyana which is reported to have escalated ethic tensions there. This was a tragic incident and we extend our sympathy to the affected families.

As Barbadians, the unfortunate incident serves to highlight the present danger of an open door immigration policy. We have written ad nauseam on the subject, specifically the impact of Indo-Guyanese on a dominantly Negro nation like Barbados – do a search of our archives using key word ‘Immigration’. It is instructive that Guyana is a country which is split almost down the middle by race, i.e. Indian and Black. It is a country where although the Blacks have enjoyed political power, the Indians have been the economic force in the country. There has been irrefutable evidence manifested through the years of the racial tensions in Guyana. It is a society which continues to struggle to find a basis for sustained harmony between the races. Anyone who challenges this assertion we liken to the proverbial ostrich.

We agree with one commenter who forwarded the view that self-preservation is a natural instinct of animals, the uncivilized kind and it is one which human can do well to learn. We have repeatedly stated that our immigration policy needs to become more efficient. Immigrant labour should be regulated to match demand and the process should be copiously documented. We are amused by the politicians, theoreticians and intellectuals who continue to spout positions based on text book positions. In the Caribbean, we have two living examples of multi-ethnic societies which continue to struggle to find the formula to support coexistence. Why should Barbados experiment with the idea of a growing multi-ethnic society and ignore the perennial racial tensions in Guyana and Trinidad?

We again wish to send out a word of caution to those responsible in our new government to closely examine the current open door policy supported by the past government. It has gotten so bad that illegal immigrants don’t even bother to move around Barbados clandestinely. Ordinary Barbadians can with ease direct the authorities to areas in Barbados where illegal Guyanese can be found in bushels. We have nothing against Guyanese, Indian or Black i.e. in theory. In practice, however, we think that there is sufficient evidence to be concerned. The vast number of Guyanese immigrants are of the unskilled variety and we strongly believe that with a world recession forecasted and the new DLP government’s commitment to slowing capital projects roll-out, excess labour in the construction sector is bound to occur.

Will anyone hear our cry?

Categories: Blogging · Guyana · Law,Crime · Racism · World News
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230 responses so far ↓

  • notesfromthemargin // January 29, 2008 at 9:34 PM

    David,

    The racial tensions in Guyana and Trinidad owes much to the political history of both of those countries. Where Barbados had the politics of inclusion (and it’s acompanying ills), politicians in those countries specifically practised the politics of EXCLUSION . As in a black president openly favoured the black population and vice versa. This road leads only to one destination; where the country is split into two camps and they practice a zero sum game, “as in all for me, none for you”.

    Politicians in Barbados have always taken the position of being relatively even handed. This tradition goes back to Grantley Adam and Errol Barrow. Also there would appear to be a greater respect for the rule of law in Barbados than either Trinidad or Guyana.

    I do think that increasing numbers of indo-Guyanese will add to the mix of tensions that we have in Barbados. However increasing numbers of Afro Guyanese also come with many of the same issues so I could not classify that as “racial” in nature.

    I do believe that if the rules were applied fairly to the illegal Guyanese workers (NIS deducted and paid, taxes deducted, health and safety standards enforced, employers of illegal immigrants punished) you would find that much of the illegal immigration would stop as the demand for that would be much lower.

    Marginal

  • Tony // January 29, 2008 at 9:45 PM

    Indians and Blacks do co-exist in Barbados. This has been going on from my days at secondary school. There might be religious differences and also some elements who might thrive on seeing a division but Barbadian society is generally tolerant.

  • Anonymous // January 29, 2008 at 10:07 PM

    Idiot.

    Barbados is not Guyana.

    Barbados is not Trinidad.

    Indian people have been living peacefully in Barbados for hundreds of years.

    It make me sick to see how far you would go to give expression to your racist hatred of Indians.

    If you want to stir up racist strife in Barbados, look no further than Bajan whites and foreign whites like Adrian Loveridge whose backside you so much delight in licking.

    Banished For Preaching Evil

  • Banished For Preaching Evil // January 29, 2008 at 10:07 PM

    Idiot.

    Barbados is not Guyana.

    Barbados is not Trinidad.

    Indian people have been living peacefully in Barbados for hundreds of years.

    It make me sick to see how far you would go to give expression to your racist hatred of Indians.

    If you want to stir up racist strife in Barbados, look no further than Bajan whites and foreign whites like Adrian Loveridge whose backside you so much delight in licking.

    Banished For Preaching Evil

  • David // January 29, 2008 at 11:52 PM

    Indians and Blacks do co-exist in Barbados. This has been going on from my days at secondary school. There might be religious differences and also some elements who might thrive on seeing a division but Barbadian society is generally tolerant.

    This is true but certainly you must acknowledge that the magnitude of the immigrant population is much larger compared to the time to which you speak and there are different social dynamics at work as well.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 12:34 AM

    Yes, going to school with them is one thing, but wait until you have to go to them to get a job and they give the job to the own kind so they could pay low wages and overwork and maltreat them, then you will re-cant what you have said, wait until you fall in love with one of them and Mamu, she mother gets a heart attack and then her father kills her, or none of the above happens, but you have to jump on board a Caribbean Airlines jet before you can kiss her, and then go all the way to Belize so you can be together. Or wait until you try to rent from them, and the only reason you got the flat is because Mamu wants a black person in her flat so that the PNC people can see she is not racist. And I can go on and on. The above are all true stories that I have seen or heard of, and I am not a racist, but a God fearing Holiness Guyanaese Christian. You know if you meet an East Indian from Guyana in a foreign country they don’t say they are Guyanese, but East Indian, then you have prod them like say some thing like you have a Caribeban accent, so you must be from Trinidad, then they say South America, well besides Guyana they could be from Suriname or Cayenne. To them Guyanese denotes black people. I am black therefore I am Guyanese. They are Est Indians born in Guyana.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 12:43 AM

    I beg to differ with your statement that Black President has excluded them. Are you telling me Burnham excluded them, not in the least, he went our of his way to make them feel at home. Look Burnham was no fool, he bent backwards for them and a lot of them became wealthy during Burnham’s rule. There were lots of East Indians in Burnham’s cabinet, but they left because they did not agree with some of LFSB’s policies, and these policies were made by Burnham to appease the Jagans. Now I like Dr. Jagan very much, and I chatted with him one time. Oh such a lovely man, and so compassionate about the plight of our people. I cried when Dr. Jagan died, I really did.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 2:28 AM

    As a student of Guyanese History it is safe for me to say that Barbados in the future will not become like Guyana. You see in nutshell Dr. Jagan married Janet Rosenburg brought her to BG in a PAN-AM plane that landed in the Demerara River. Here we were in our colony growing our cane and enjoying life, but Mrs. Jagan did not like what she saw and she began to disrespect our British rulers by disobeying our colony’s rules and forming her political action committee. The PAC became the PPP and won the first British held elections, but the government was suspended because of communistic leanings. Then LFSB left the PPP and formed the PNC thus carrying away all the black vote, the mixed race vote and some of the white vote, which left the Jagans PPP as an East Indian party……and here is the root of the problem.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 4:24 AM

    Please kindly allow me to say that the statement made on the other section of this blog about the same Black Guyanese and East Indian Guyanese attacking each other in Guyana are now down the road in B’dos and will act likewise. That is a false statement, because the recent vicious act against innocent Guyanese was done a a criminal gang. The gang has a black leader, and the area that he attacked is a predominately East Indian area, so the chances of an East Indian being hurt in his brutal rampage is feasable due to the demogaphics of the area. Had he struck in the Upper Demerara area and attacked homes in Linden, most likely his victims would have been Black Guyanese since that area is predominantly Black. Had he struck in Georgetown it could have been any body.

  • Bimbro // January 30, 2008 at 4:45 AM

    So far, I’ve only read the main headline and the answer is, ‘yes, they can’!! With the Indians on top and the blacks underneath them, as usual – AND, I IN FUH DAH ONE BIT!!!!

    So, I say, allow a few in, but ONLY A FEW, and keep a very, close eye on them!!!!

    Back fuh mo hot-licks, soon!!!! :)

    P.S. Rihanna, is my heroine, so her daddy can stay any time of the night or day, as far as I’m concerned!!!! :)

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 4:46 AM

    I know I am saying too much, but before the white Guyanese left Guyana in droves they and the East Indians were battling it out. They fire bombed a school bus carrying white Guyanese children, and if my memory serves me well two white Guyanese school girls were killed, then the Abraham family was almost wiped out, only Ann, Diana and their Mum lived and that was because they were at a cocktail party that night. Mr. Abraham and 7 sons and daughters perished in a fire bombing of their Hadfield St. GT home. They hated Peter D’Aguiar, the man that brought you all Banks Beer. Just the other day in Stabroek News a person sent a racism letter to the editor of said paper attacking Chinese Guyanese, and then signed the name to reflect an East Indian. Mr. Faria the Guyana Honourary Consel in Bridgetown had to write a letter to the editor of said paper stating that the letter was so offensive that it should not have been published. So you see this thing involves other people not only black Guyanese. The population is 43% African, 43% East Indian, 7% Amerinidian, 2% Chinese and 1% white, plus 375 Barbadians, and as high as 30,000 illegal Brasilians

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 5:50 AM

    Well, I can see it now, Welcome to Barbadostan, and you nice Cave Hill boys have married a devi plucked from the heart of Barbadostan, and then you have forgotten to give your mother-in-law a box of Cadbury for her birthday. Your mother-in-law is offended so she called Bhougie in Trinidad to tell her that you don’t like Indian people because you forgot her birthday. And then Radio Barbados will blare out those Hindi ballards at all hours of the night, and then of course Cassandra will be chatting with Avinash and then your East Indian mother-in-law will call to chat and tell Avinash that she has East Indian girl for him. Of course Roebuck St. will now have sari shops and Indian gift and groceries and when ships depart Barbadostan they will smell that pungent wift of curry 10 miles offshore. The Barbados Hilton will become Oberoi Barbadostan Hotel, and Queen Elizabeth Hospital will be Shemoti Indira Gandhi Hospital

  • David // January 30, 2008 at 5:57 AM

    Maybe this is why some Barbadians are afraid. To visualize the future where there is a large population of Black/Indian mix which will change the Barbados which many traditional Barbadians are so proud. To visualize a PM or MP of East Indian ancestry. This is not inconceivable when we consider that many of these immigrant populations are concentrated in only a few districts.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 6:39 AM

    I am telling you all from experience. Adrian Hotel will become the Radhna Krishna Mandir. The carneage will be considered the holy Ganges so you will see mamu and bhapu and devi walking down to the carneage to take a dip in the holy water, since the water there will be considered to come underground from the Holy Ganges River in India. Then Bhapu will decide that he can grow good basmati rice so he will replace the front lawn with a rice field, then the cow will wonder into you all yard and eat the grass, cow in street, cow in field at Kennsington Oval. Jhandi flags flying from bamboo. Mamu is sick at QE 11 Hospital which is now Indira Gandhi Hospital and of course Bhapu, and Dev and Devi and Shalendra all them want to spend the night, with Bhapu in the same bed with the patient. Of course they are not going home so instead of eating at the hospital cafeteria they decide to cut a few branches from a tree to make a fire and cook some curry on the hospital grounds. Mullens Road is now Mohammed Ali Jinnah Road, and Transport Barbados is no more, because Bhapu is now running a mini bus service to the airport and all points in between. The Oberoi Barbadostan Hotel the once Hitlon Barbados beach is now used for creamations and Cave Shepherd isnow Kiraplani’s with everything from Hindustan even the Cadbury Chocolate. Take a trip to Guyana and see or better yet Suriname

  • Bimbro // January 30, 2008 at 6:56 AM

    A devi???? Sister Babe, what is that????

    I must really be out of touch, in the UK!!!

    Back soon!!!! Laaddddddddddddd:)

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 7:28 AM

    How often have i stated that Guyan is a failed state. Well i have been saying such since the 80’s when my childhood sweetheart now my wife visited Guyana and Venezuela in some exchange program. Her response then on what her impression of Guyana were are to this day my opinion of Guyana.

    —————-IT IS A FAILED STATE.————–

    There is a distinct difference in attitudes and personalities between Indians from India and Africa as Dr. Mohammed the one time pharmiacist in strathclyde was and the Patels who came around the village selling their goods and wares, and these Indo Guyanese, …big difference. I don’t know why this is as i have not given it much thought, but one difference to be noted was Dr.Mohammed and the Patels where muslims and most of the Indo-Guyanese are from a Hindu background. Again i am not suggesting that this is the reason although the Muslim minority in India would probably say it is.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 7:29 AM

    OK Bimbro, a devi is like a young lady and a dev a young man, mamu is mother, and bhapu is father. Morning Barbados is now Namaste Barbadostan. Say good bye to movies like Bend it like Beckham or Big Mama’s Family because cinemas with names like the Indra Mahal and Moti Mahal are now showing Geeta Hindustan memshos Hoagie a Mahendra Wallah. Look I had better go before I get into trouble. Those of you that have visited Guyana the Indra Mahal is on the road to Georgetown from Timehri. And finally Bridgetown is now Bridgetown Nagar and Holetown is now Holebad

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 7:39 AM

    I was a student at Hindu College in Georgetown in the 60’s and we had food day, so I made prawn curry and nice Karibbean rice to accompany my dish. Well the judge was Dr. Shurti Kant from India and now Guyana. I won first prize and Dr. Kant said to me Baby you can cook better Indian food than these Indians. I thanked him, but besides my jheera and cardomon and curry and garlic, oinon and salt I added a little MSG for flavour, and to this day I always walk with curry powder with a tince of MSG for special flavour when I am asked to make curry dishes for people. Well I am Guyanese what else is there to do. My dear late Mum use to say no trick no living int his world. Look I have cooked for the Bookers Tate people in Guyana, the headman and his wife. The said Aunty Baby they have never tasted such fine Guyanese food, and of course they asked my what I put inside, I say just salt and local herbs, but it’s my MSG

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 7:40 AM

    Can Indians And Blacks Co-exist In Barbados?

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The answer is yes, and they have been, but not all Indians have the same background, beliefs, and cultural practices.

    Get up early a moring in Bridgetown and see the muslims Indian carring out the teachings of their faith by feeding the poor and homeless. Dr. Mohammed was a known importer of goods and many a black small shopper owner benefited from him, which angered the white merchant class in Bridgetown who went about the process of closing down his business, via thier monolistic attitudes. The Patels, well i don’t have to speak about them any Barbadian from rural Barbados can speak about these people, what a blessing they were. But these racist Indo-Guyanese blood suckers are a different story.

  • Bimbro // January 30, 2008 at 8:13 AM

    Thanks, Sis Babe, back soon!!!!

    Adrian, u been ok?!!

    Wrote lots of stuff to u in the ‘Guyanese’ forum & don’t think I got a reply!!! What happened?!!!!

  • Bimbro // January 30, 2008 at 8:14 AM

    Or was it the homosexuals, forum?!!!!

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 8:20 AM

    I tell you what the difference is, You see Adrian these Indo Guyanese are in reality Afro-Indian Guyanese. The Black culture in Guyana is the dominant culture, and so the Indo Guyanese have had to adapt to that culture, but by the same token they clinging to India, so they get confused. I use to say Guyana is a black country until I went to some Chinese Guyanese home for dinner to discover they had the very same Afro Guyanese traditons as I. And of course the Guyanese accent is technically an African accent, for all Guyanse sound like some one from Ghana. It’s true. Fancy this Guyanse Chinese season their Chinese food with Lea and Perrins worchetershire sauce as opposed to soy sauce.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 8:25 AM

    Namaskar Mems Sahibs, Where are all the Cave Hill people? I guess since I am here ranting and raving about Hindustani mem shogie Guyanastan they have decided to stay away. Well I am not going to write anymore so Namaste Barbadostan

  • Looking // January 30, 2008 at 8:47 AM

    Barbados must not persue any policy which appears racist however our immigration apparatus needs to be regulated, strengthened and our laws enforced. Illegal aliens must be firmly put out of the country. The legal ones can stay and are welcome. As long as we have our immigration policy clearly spelt out and the accompanying laws followed we should not have a problem with Guyanese, Chinese or those illegal white people who are encouraged here by local whites.

    Now that Owen Arthur has thankfully demitted PM’s office the immigration officers can do their jobs fairly and without fear. Arthur directed a lot of unwarranted abuse at the immigration and police of our beloved island. Good riddance to him.

  • Snoopy // January 30, 2008 at 8:56 AM

    David et al,

    What of Indians who are not from Guyana, or T&T, i.e., their parents are from India and they were born in Bim. What are your thoughts on that, or do you not make any distinction?

    The Indians (Hindus), and by that I mean those with parents from India who came off ‘the boat’ (so to speak :) ), and settled in Bim, are a definite minority. Their numbers add up to less (someone correct me if I’m wrong please), than the Guy-Indo/Black and Muslim population.

    Their reasons for coming to Bim, I think, are the same as most of us C’bbean folks when we look to move to the US/Europe/Canada, i.e., that of a higher standard of living (either socially, economically or politically).

    However, I think I see the point that David is trying to make. That being, in a small island, a large influx of non-nationals may disrupt the country’s ‘harmony’, either socially, economically or politically.

    We’re seeing disruption in all three right now.

    Socially: When non-nationals migrate to a country, they bring with them their own norms, cultures and attitudes (including violent behaviour). Barbados has always been a quite, polite and peaceful country.

    Economically: This is the most apparent one. Guyanese labourers, who in trying to seek a better life than that of their own back home, upset the apple cart by offering labour and accepting a lower price than Barbadians. That’s the free market at work. Happens all around the World. Look at India and the US. Jobs are leaving the US to go to India because labour is cheaper, not because they want to send them.

    Mind you, and this is subject to how much money, if any at all the Guyanese/TT send back home, some of the money they earn is being spent in Bim’s economy in the form of rent, food stuff, entertainment, etc. I’m not sure about taxes/NIS. I’m a firm believer in paying taxes. If you come into a country other than your own and live there and enjoy their social services, then you should definitely pay taxes.

    Politically: This is tricky. Is Bim ready for a non-black PM, no, I doubt it. We are still paranoid and not trusting enough. I think, please correct me if I’m wrong, we’d always choose a black PM any day over a non-black PM. Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t? Or how about, the lesser of two evils? Yet, as black people, we still pull each other down. Why?

    What would happen if (and I speak hypothetically ofcourse), the World turned against the Caribbean (unlikely that this would happen without just cause), would we see a united Caribbean people rising up in defence? Mind you, some would argue that this is already happening, that’s why we have CARICOM/CSME etcetera…

    In conclusion I would ask that people remember we all share the same air and the same space. We may not be of the same colour/culture, but we come from and live on the same planet.

    No, I’m not a hippie and I’m not daft. I watch the news, read the papers and talk to people, I see what’s happening.

  • Bimbro // January 30, 2008 at 9:08 AM

    Sister Babe, thanks for the description of Guyana! I have n’t been there and have no reason to suppose I ever will but your knowledge is consumate!

    Please remind me of one event! Sometime in the 70s or 80s I recall reading about an incident here in the UK, possibly during the Burnham administration, about a man chasing a white churchman down the street, possibly even in Georgetown, with an axe and maybe, killing him!!

    I think it had something to do with the political situ there, at the time. Can u recall the incident!!

    Otherwise, thanks for the history and speak soon!!

    BTW, how’re you finding life in Bim!!!!

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 9:24 AM

    Yes Bimbro, They were protesting against Burnham, but as I say Burnham was no fool, Burnham brought in the Jonestown People’s Temple and Rabbi Washington with his House of Israel group, well the Guyanese were protesting and led by a white Roman Catholic Jesuit priest and Rabbi went after him with an axe, oh my. That was something. Listen you should see the Guyana Parliment in action in those days. Burnham told the white lady member of Parliament to sit down you stupid white lady and shut up. Anyway when Burnham died President Hoyte who they said is a Grenadian turned Rabbi over to USA authorities and I beleive he died in a US jail. Rabbi was from East St. Louis IL and so he and his group were sent packing to East St. Louis and of course the Jonestown people commited mass suicide. Burnham had a Barbadian connection, but it is had to say if he was born in Guyana since they could have changed his birth certificate to reflect such

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 9:39 AM

    you do know there is a flip side to the Mamu and Bhapu story that I have told above. Well lets look at Granny Wilson the wealthy black Guyanese socialite who would not rent her flats to Indians because they cook too much curry and her white Burger Paint wall will get stained up, and besides east Indians are heathens, Granny would not rent to such since granny is an Anglican and prides herself in all things English. Granny does not rent to black Guyanese either because they are always late with the rent, and as for Chinese well they are dirty and many years ago a Chinese Guyanese man stole her pet doggie Prancer that was given to her by Captain Renson the last overseer of planatation that Granny inhertited and that Chinese Guyanese man cooked Granny doggie and ate him. Granny is waiting for a nice English man to come and rent. Granny lives in Guyana, but refers to the Jaganites and Burnhamnites as the Sugar Hill Gang. Granny says bring the English back to Guyana and let the good times roll. Granny can’t see an Indian doctor for it’s a sin for a heathen to see a naked Anglican Granny, but she can’t see a Black Guyanese doctor either as he might want to have carnal knowledge with her and I can go on and on but you get the idea. By the way Granny is referd to as Granny because she is old. she never married because she was waiting in her great house for the Lord to send her a good English husband, but it never happened, so now she feels she is at the mercies of the Sugar Hill, but as Granny says what goes around comes around and as she says pretty soon the English will be back in Guyana and she can hear Green sleaves and White Christmas playing once again on Guyana NCN Radio instead of some heathen singing Christmas in Guyana and she can’t understand a word he is saying

  • Island Dude // January 30, 2008 at 9:56 AM

    BU…. You need to specify whether you mean Indians for Guyana or Indians from India or of Indian parents born in Bim.

    There has been a history of harmony between Bajans and Indians from India/Indians born in Bim of Indian parents…which no one can object to.
    They have played an integral part of our social and economic life in Barbados prior and after Independence. They are also many mix mariages ( with no one getting abused or murdered)because the Indians form India have actually become so bajanised that they are tolerant and don’t act in the eratic manner of those in the subcontinent.
    Now enter the Guyanesse connection( I’m not being racist here)

    Both the Afro and Indo Guyanese are bringing their racial tension over to Barbados which is a serious cause for concern. This will definitely put the Racial balance between Indians from India and the Bajan public out of order.

    We agree that Barbadians, Indians, Vincentians, St. Lucians and others have coexisted. Even although this is true the escalating illegal immigration has clouded the issue. Barbadians now see the Indian problem as part of a bigger problem of an immigration issue which is out of control.

    David

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 10:16 AM

    Burnham’s second wife was half Chinese/Guyanese and half Black, President Hoyte’s wife was half Portuguese/Guyanese and half Black, Peter D’Aguiar the man that brought you Banks Beer and Guyana Minister of Finance and Deputy PM had a white Guyanese wife and of course Dr. Jagan married a white American Jew. I wonder why these leaders did such.

  • Bimbro // January 30, 2008 at 10:21 AM

    Thanks for all the above, SB. I think we can do without all that headache, in Bim!!

    How’re u finding life in Bim!!!!

  • Anonymous // January 30, 2008 at 10:26 AM

    David // January 30, 2008 at 5:57 am

    Maybe this is why some Barbadians are afraid. To visualize the future where there is a large population of Black/Indian mix which will change the Barbados which many traditional Barbadians are so proud. To visualize a PM or MP of East Indian ancestry. This is not inconceivable when we consider that many of these immigrant populations are concentrated in only a few districts.

    ***************

    You racist idiot.

    We just got a prime minister who is half-white.

    Why don’t you go about attacking him too, because if you don’t want people in government who are of East Indian descent then you shouldn’t accept any red boy or ecky-becky either. And like you said, we know that those red-legs are all concentrated in St. John and the other east coast parishes.

    Why don’t you start by getting rid of them, eh?

    It is low-thinking animals like you who were responsible for going on the airwaves and fueling genocide in Rwanda, and also the ethnic cleansing we see in Kenya today.

    The killing always starts with swine like YOU.

    Foolish racist pig.

  • Anonymous // January 30, 2008 at 10:34 AM

    What really angers me is hypocrites like David of BU who want to keep Barbados racially pure, yet think that black Bajans have an automatic right to migrate to white majority countries such as the USA, Canada and the UK.

    Your blog carries information that it is run by a couple nearing retirement. I really hope that’s true, because that indicates old age which indicates near death. I really really really really really hope that you will “dead off” real soon, so that all your hatred will die with you.

    If you have any, I hope that all your children marry Indians.

    Racist hypocrite pig.

  • Thomas Gresham // January 30, 2008 at 10:37 AM

    We are a small island and this creates many understandable insecurities. But for our people and country to grow and develop, we need to broaden our horizons beyond the caribbean sea, travel, learn and experience the way things happen elsewhere. We are too small to be an autarky.

    Hopefully our students and youth will return with their experience and knowledge or we can enjoy their knowledge in other ways (this blog connects many Bajans living abroad). The Barbadian member of Al Gore’s Nobel Prize winning team has done well for himself, but also for Barbados. He will inspire our kids beyond their immediate surroundings and he has enlarged our country’s name and reputation.

    We do not want favours for our people when they live abroad, but we want them to be welcome and treated fairly and when they stay and settle to have rights as others do. So how should we treat people who come here? Especially those who come here under CSME as graduates who can bring skills and capital? If we are to grow and develop, having those who come with different skills will also contribute. Personally, I would like a few Indian traders, not graduates, come and shake up our cosy distributive trades sector and make it as competitive as it is in Trinidad.

    Contrast our insecurities now with Singapore.
    Our national hero, Errol Barrow thought there was much we could learn from Singapore. Singapore is one of the most successful economies in the world. It now ranks as one of the richest having been one of the poorest in 1960. Its land area is just one half larger than Barbados and it has 3 million people with plans to grow to 5 million, primarily through immigration. Yes. 3 million people and plans for 5 million and just one half bigger than Barbados – as you may guess they have lifted the 30ft building height restriction! They are targeting India as a source for graduates to come and settle in Singapore. Today around 10% of the population are Indian by descent, some 60-70% are Chinese origin. It has a strong culture – Bajans think the place sounds to repressed and controlled – but whatever it is, it is stong. Their self-confidence in their culture is directly related to their willingness to invite others to come and live in Singapore and that is directly related to their path out of developing country status. Barbados is not Singapore but we should see what we can learn. No successful country has been successful by being inward looking and resistant to immigration, even large ones like America. In America, a country with 300 million people, their economic successes are almost all tales of down trodden immigrants made good for many to benefit from.

  • Anonymous // January 30, 2008 at 11:03 AM

    David

    All I can tell you is to be strong and develop a backbone of steel because there are vested interest in this country who want to see the influx of these persons of indian descent increase their numbers here in barbados, and they will use any bogus argument to try and pretend that it isn’t so.

    I am watching to see if bajans will come out here on this blog and say publicly what they have been saying privately about their objection to this large number of non nationals in increasing numbers coming to this country.

  • Nat // January 30, 2008 at 11:32 AM

    Wow…As a huge fan of Barbados and its people, I am very disappointed to hear the racist comments being made in this forum. I am an Indian whose ancestors moved to East Africa and now live in Canada, which is a VERY diverse country. I thank GOD, for the sake of ALL immigrants, that Canada does not have attitudes like displayed here when it comes to immigration. This xenophobia is dangerous and only hinders any unity of the Carribean. Somehow an unrealisticl freight has been created against Indians, where does this come from? MY, if all we needed to do is pick a few ‘horror stories’ of any race to create very scary stereotypes of an entire segment of people, how would any race not be seen as dangerous?

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 12:07 PM

    Nat, Please don’t make me come there to Canada and give you two hits with my belna. There is no unrealistic freight, as you say created here about Indians, for everything that I have said here is based on experience. The US is facing a similiar situation with Mexico that they are building a fence, liekwise Barbados is facing a similiar problem with Guyanese both black and Indians, and the other Guyanese. No one here is creating scary steroetypes of anybody. We just talking. And let me tell you that the same lovely Canada has stereotyped Indians and Chinese in Vancouver, so don’t come here and try to lambaste Barbardian. And as for Caribbean unity, well that can only be in the 700 island of the Bahamas, because every Caribbean nation is unique in its own way.

  • Bimbro // January 30, 2008 at 12:10 PM

    Nat, I guess you’re trying to tell us that your people are angels, are n’t you. Fortunately, we’re not that stupid!!!!

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 12:10 PM

    Nat // January 30, 2008 at 11:32 am

    Wow…As a huge fan of Barbados and its people, I am very disappointed to hear the racist comments being made in this forum. I am an Indian whose ancestors moved to East Africa and now live in Canada, which is a VERY diverse country. I thank GOD, for the sake of ALL immigrants, that Canada does not have attitudes like displayed here when it comes to immigration. This xenophobia is dangerous and only hinders any unity of the Carribean. Somehow an unrealisticl freight has been created against Indians, where does this come from? MY, if all we needed to do is pick a few ‘horror stories’ of any race to create very scary stereotypes of an entire segment of people, how would any race not be seen as dangerous?
    ==============================
    Nat don’t fool youself that anyone in Barbados could care anything for your disappointment. Immigration concerns are at the forefront of the thought of citizens all across the globe. Canada’s predicament is understandable, as is their need for immigrants, but you can continue to Thank God while ignoring the reality of population growth by immigration. I live in North America, my Son was born in Canada, and i am as informed as you or anyone else about Canada. While born and bred Canadians have been leaving Canada primarily as a result of the cold, other reasons have led to the exodus, and Canada’s unchecked immigration is one of them. 29 or so Million people and a rapidly aging population make immigration a neccessity, but don’t try to fool us that it comes without significant social cost. Canadians tend to suffer from a milder version of the British stiff upper lip, so becuase they are not talking does not mean that the demonstrated negative practices of bulk immigration are not present in Looney Land. Plus Canada has the expanse of Land so that native Canadians can move further away from the negative effects of their government’s open immigration policies.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 12:13 PM

    I love everyone, and I am accustomed to Black, Indian, Chinese, Amerinidan and white and every mixture. Oh I love the English, maybe I will move to Barbados and work at Adrian’s and for free, you see thats the Guyanese spirit in me, and in spite of the fact that every day is turmoil in Guyana. I still love Guyana with all my heart and all her Tajah, Obeah, Umbanda, Hakka, English duck, Bucktuh people. Bye

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 12:24 PM

    Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 8:20 am

    I tell you what the difference is, You see Adrian these Indo Guyanese are in reality Afro-Indian Guyanese. The Black culture in Guyana is the dominant culture, and so the Indo Guyanese have had to adapt to that culture, but by the same token they clinging to India, so they get confused. I use to say Guyana is a black country until I went to some Chinese Guyanese home for dinner to discover they had the very same Afro Guyanese traditons as I. And of course the Guyanese accent is technically an African accent, for all Guyanse sound like some one from Ghana. It’s true. Fancy this Guyanse Chinese season their Chinese food with Lea and Perrins worchetershire sauce as opposed to soy sauce.
    ==============================

    Sister Baby i am not highlighting Indo-Guyanese in Barbados as the problem out of malice.Whatever the origins of their cultural practice and were the ILLEGAL GUYANESE IN Barbados of a different colour, hue, creed, yeT some how exhibit the same attitudes as the ones that are currently here then my position would not differ other than how i would identify the culprits.

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 12:33 PM

    Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 12:13 pm

    I love everyone, and I am accustomed to Black, Indian, Chinese, Amerinidan and white and every mixture. Oh I love the English, maybe I will move to Barbados and work at Adrian’s and for free, you see thats the Guyanese spirit in me, and in spite of the fact that every day is turmoil in Guyana. I still love Guyana with all my heart and all her Tajah, Obeah, Umbanda, Hakka, English duck, Bucktuh people. Bye
    ==============================

    I love everyone too. But i do not love all behavours, all attitudes, or all practices. One such behaviour is by those Barbadians who would encourage illegal immigration, and for those immigrants who on arriving in their newly adopted homeland, not to attempt to assimilate, and while i also believe that a free people in a society cannot be force to do anything, here in lies my missgivings about open immigration. The rumoured benefits it brings has many more unintended side effects.

  • nonsense // January 30, 2008 at 12:39 PM

    Another day, another torrent of racism in BU dressed up as ‘discussion’. The whole question of ethnic tension in Guyana is simply a smokescreen for this sort of diatribe. It’s the same as someones saying, “There’s massive violence in Jamaica so all black people are violent and we should restrict black immigration” or “The US has one of the highest gun crime rates in the world and is mainly white so all white people are gun nuts”. You have the right to your opinions, I have the right to label you homophobic and racist.

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 1:35 PM

    nonsense // January 30, 2008 at 12:39 pm

    Another day, another torrent of racism in BU dressed up as ‘discussion’. The whole question of ethnic tension in Guyana is simply a smokescreen for this sort of diatribe. It’s the same as someones saying, “There’s massive violence in Jamaica so all black people are violent and we should restrict black immigration” or “The US has one of the highest gun crime rates in the world and is mainly white so all white people are gun nuts”. You have the right to your opinions, I have the right to label you homophobic and racist.
    ==============================

    ha ha ha ha well you stick to your RIGTHS and “uh gine LEFT yuh tuh own devises”.

    The attempted similarities are poorly made. Americans have been at odds with their government for many years over immigration. It mattered little where they were coming from. Don’t be fooled by the high influx of the Irish, who have now assimilated and now exhibit many of the attitudes towards blacks and others that was once directed towards them, by other European Americans. The fact is that concerns about immigration were hardly as prevalent in Barbados 15 years ago as they are today, yet i can remember as boy, the many accents of the many different people living, going school and working around me. I can recall being fascinated with the Caribbean accents and pride myself of being able to distinguish a Kit-titian accent from that of a Antiguan, Vincentian from Grenadian etc., having never left Barbados, not even on a vacation. Immigration concerns in Barbados is a recent phenomenon, and on closer inspection it is as a result of the INDO-GUYANESE, and i go further to state that it is as a result of the attitudes and personality trait of these people. I believe that they have brought their suspicions of Afro-Guyanese to bare on Black Barbadians in Barbados, and that this is the primary reason for the unified position of Barbadians across all classes and profession on these people.

  • Nat // January 30, 2008 at 1:42 PM

    I NEVER meant to say Canada is perfect. Lord knows it is FAR from pefect. However it is probably the best model we have for diversity and pluralism in the world right now. And if many Canadians held the same viewpoints on immigration as I have seen here, I would be in trouble, many black people would be, many Asians would be etc etc. However this fear-based attitude does remind me of the immigration policies of Canada in the 1800’s when Canada started seeing (needing) immigrants from outside England and France and Europe. I guess it is a natural initial response.
    Sister Baby- your few stories you have posted about Guyanese and Guyanese Indians IS EXACTLY Stereotyping. One cannot judge an entire people based on the actions of a few- just as ‘nonsense’ pointed out.
    It is almost like a scapegoat attitude- where we seem to be blaming many economic problems (ie unemployment) on a particular group of people.

  • Nat // January 30, 2008 at 1:46 PM

    immigration does come with costs- I am not opposed to the idea of Barbados tightening its immigration policy or whatever else. What is shocking and uphauling is the RACIST attitude on this forum against the Guyanese…both Indian and Afro.

  • passing through south // January 30, 2008 at 3:44 PM

    blacks bring their own problems upon themselves.look around the whole world e.g kenya and point proven.shut up and move on with life.blacks hold back their own selves and cause their own problems, not guyanese or whites or indians

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 4:25 PM

    Nat don’t you think you should address those particular comments and commentators who have to your mind exhibit, and or uttered racist, xenophobic, and fear mongering comments?, because when you make your blanket statements, such as “this blog” and “Barbados or Barbadians this or that” you are including all of us, and I would like to think that i can defend my positions. Is there something in my comments so far that you can accurately attribute any of those blanket labelS you have thrown up?

    1800: how could anything occuring today remind you of that period? where you an eyewitness then? or are you likely to be referencing someone’s else’s account of that time? The convenience for such an association is too easy to make but if challenge will probably be much more difficult to substantiate. want to give a try?

    Stereotyping: are you suggesting that stereotying in of itself is bad? what about the truth? If i can prove that the much talk about ebonics is in reality “Toddler speak” spoken by an abundance of African American adults whom it seems have never been taught to correctly pronunce the two FF in the word FiFty or who have pronunce “ASK” as if to say “AXE” (bajans does this too) If i can prove this to be TRUE, why would this particular Stereotyping for telling the truth be a bad thing? :D Political correctness may have had good intention when first practice but it has gone to far in allowing all kinds of behaviours that is having untold negative effects in schools, villages, and society as a whole.

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 4:27 PM

    Nat // January 30, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    immigration does come with costs- I am not opposed to the idea of Barbados tightening its immigration policy or whatever else. What is shocking and uphauling is the RACIST attitude on this forum against the Guyanese…both Indian and Afro.
    =============================

    Can i recommend that you highlight those offending comments and deal with them, unless you really believe that this forum which includes everyone is guilty,….then i would ask you to lay out your evidence to substantiate your charge.

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 4:36 PM

    Marginal made some good points. It goes back to the approch that Leroy Trotman enunciated by way of an employment registry which was dismiss out of hand without a cogent explanation as to why this would not be good thing. Leroy Trotman also spoke about a minimum wage, that even illegals would qualify for, but again he was dismissed. He further went on too suggest that caricom should do whatever it can to help Guyana provide an envoirnment AT HOME for it’s citizen since the major reason given for what can only be characterize as “FLIGHT” is the lack of opportunity to make a basic living in Guyana.

  • Adrian Hinds // January 30, 2008 at 4:38 PM

    Nat, sister baby says she is from Guyanese extract, unless you have proof to the contrary who are you to cast your blanket lebel on her, and that we might believe you?

  • David // January 30, 2008 at 7:45 PM

    We are struggling to understand why BU is being labeled as racist?

    We have asked that our immigration laws and policies be improved/strengthened.

    We have asked Barbadians to to study how immigration will impact our small country.

    We have asked most importantly to learn from Trinidad and Guyana which continue to struggle with Indo/Black tension.

    We stand by our position.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 8:04 PM

    Adrian, I am not bothering with Nat. He can’t raise my pressure, especially since he lived in East Africa, because any East African would came here and write exactly what I wrote above. Prof. Ali Mazuri held the Rodney Chair at UG in the 90’s and he too said what I have said, so there. Nat, do you think I as a black woman with all my curry cooking and pigeon Hindi can move to Mumbai and everything would be fine. I think not. I probably could not get a ricksha wallah to pick me, muchless find a job Well as for the hatred of Guyanese, well Nat don’t even worry about that for all I have to do is step off the jet at BGI Airport wearing my sari, but carrying my belna, in case of any trouble, in tow with some nice Guyanese curry and roti, and some mit tai for dessert and all the Adrians will be my friend. So don’t worry, we Guyanese accustomed to them. I have experienced racism from white people in the land of BET and Oprah, but my dear I just wrtie if off as they are jealous of me, so they behave like that. So don’t worry we just talking, Well I have to run my favourite show is now on, Hell Date on BET Bye

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 8:23 PM

    But I hope you all seeing the madness that is Guyana, because if Guyana was such a divided country do you think that I could have learned to cook Indian food, speak pigeon Hindi, wrap a sari, do Rakki, celebrate Diwali, and the Indians doing Obeah and going to Djukaland in Suriname to do umbanda and how would I have known that the meat in a Chinese restaurants in Guyana are seasoned with Lea and Perrins Worchestershire sauce and at the end of cooking masked with a tince of soy to give it a a sort of Chinese flavour. Anyway, Adrian in old age, I tend accept all behaviours. I do, I say oh well, so be it.

  • Sister Baby // January 30, 2008 at 9:01 PM

    Nat, I would be the first to garland you if you were to come to Guyana. CARIFESTA coming up in August and I will be in Guyana Stadium jumping up with my fellow toyi toyi Guyanese, skarling away in the warmth of our Guyana. And then in September is a GUYAFESTA- Festival Africiane de la Guyane

  • Robert Hooke // January 30, 2008 at 9:05 PM

    According to David “We are struggling to understand why BU is being labeled racist?”

    Let me offer you a few quotes from contributors to this blog, which if they were said in Britain by white people about black people, I for one would be marching in the streets and there would be a serious public discussion as to whether the blog should be closed down on grounds of incitement to racial hatred, which is a serious offence in the UK and elsewhere.

    “Yes, going to school with them is one thing, but wait until you have to go to them to get a job and they give the job to the own kind so they could pay low wages and overwork and maltreat them”
    Sister baby

    “So far, I’ve only read the main headline and the answer is, ‘yes, they can’!! With the Indians on top and the blacks underneath them, as usual – AND, I IN FUH DAH ONE BIT!!!!”
    Bimbro

    “But these racist Indo-Guyanese blood suckers are a different story.”
    Adrian Hinds

    Of course, it is only three people and the same three people who also express other socially objectionable views so we should be cautious about labeling the whole blog, but I have to say I have been disappointed that of all the issues we can address we have had two cracks at the same issue in a few days.

    Like all racism, this is intended to distract people from the real and difficult issues. Our socio-economic problems are not caused by a few Guyanese Indians immigrants. Are Guyanese Indians contributing to one-parent families in Barbados? Are Guyanese Indians responsible for boys on the block? Are Guyanese Indians making us an uncompetitive economy? Are Guyanese Indians responsible for low-levels of productivity and service?

  • David // January 30, 2008 at 9:30 PM

    RH you should not confuse BU’s positions with commenters.

  • standpipe // January 30, 2008 at 11:10 PM

    Racist black dog!

  • Analyst // January 30, 2008 at 11:46 PM

    Check this article out by Prof Kean Gibson, UWI in Cave Hill, She has written two books on Indian racism against Afro Guyanese in Guyana:

    This was copied from The Caribbean Impact – Jan 2008

    Racism and the degeneration of Guyana
    PART I
    By Dr. KEAN GIBSON\

    I am on a one-year sabbatical from my job at The University of the West Indies, Barbados so most of my time is spent in Guyana which is my research area. I have done research on the Creole language, African-Guyanese culture (Comfa and Kwe-Kwe), but more recently I have been interested in the racism in the society and the political, social and economic consequences of a racial power structure. In the past I would spend my summer vacations and have occasional short visits to the country.

    Whenever I return to Barbados it takes me a couple of days to recover from the trauma of the society. Now that I am in Guyana on a more or less continuous basis, I feel that I am living in a pressure cooker, and like many Guyanese, I just want some relief from the tensions in society. The problem in the country is inequality and the consequences of it with respect to differential distribution, rights and duties (which is what racism is about).

    I was particularly concerned with a report in the Stabroek News (“Five ERC reports presented to Parliament,” October 19, 2007) where it was stated that studies conducted by the Ethnic Relations Commission (ERC) show that discrimination against African-Guyanese was a ‘perception’:

    “The Ethnic Relations Commission (ERC) says studies on five important areas of concern in the country found no real evidence of discrimination but a perception that certain ethnic groups are discriminated against.”

    A subsequent notice appeared in Stabroek News (October 28, 2007) where the ERC was inviting African-Guyanese to a forum to discuss their “perceived needs.” The use of the term “perception” implies that nothing needs to be done since discrimination is just a figment of the imagination of African-Guyanese. The discrimination must be a perception because no laws are broken. In South Africa during the apartheid era, and in the Southern United States in the pre-Martin Luther King, Jr. era, laws were passed prohibiting people from living or sitting in certain areas; and if these laws were broken, punishment could then be inflicted. Also, it is in the laws of Guyana that Guyanese cannot own lands in Amerindian areas, but Amerindians can own lands in other areas. So if members of other ethnic groups seek to purchase lands in Amerindian designated areas the discrimination would be very clear since a law would be broken.

    There are no such laws with respect to Africans, East Indians and other ethnic groups in the society. Since no laws can be said to be broken with respect to jobs, land distribution and development opportunities in Guyana, the implication is that all is well in the society for racism is nothing more than a perception.

    But all is not well. If the word “discrimination” is a poor choice for the experiences of African-Guyanese since racism is not legal in Guyana, then a more apt word is “victimization” where a group of people are singled out for cruel and unjust treatment. There is an informal system (racism is a formal or informal power structure) of privileges and rights operating in the society. When East Indians are accused of racism, they are quick to point out that they lived and worked among Africans and have or had close African friends

    . So there is nothing that one can point at to say they are racists – so the racism in nothing more than a perception. But Africans are victims of what is in the hearts of East Indians, and as I have pointed out in The Cycle of Racial Oppression (2003) and Sacred Duty: Hinduism and violence in Guyana (2005), what is written in the Hindu sacred texts. The violent reactions by some East Indians to Cycle (there has been silence on Sacred Duty since I really got to the core of the issue in that book), is that I had the audacity to discuss the formal system of racism that informs their hearts. The racism, and thus inequality, that is promoted in the Hindu sacred texts is a valuable resource which bestows benefits, rights and duties to a group of people and thus must be maintained at all costs and by any means necessary.

    One area in which Africans are victimized is in development allocations and thus depriving Africans of the means of earning a living and driving them into poverty thereby injuring their life prospects. If you cannot work, you cannot live. Since the PPP came to power in 1992 a myth was formulated that Africans do not repay loans. That myth became the justification for banks denying loans to Africans, but loans are readily made available to East Indians. The result is that Africans do not apply to banks for loans, and this is then the reason for the ERC in their report concluding that there is no discrimination against Africans in receiving bank loans since Africans do not apply.

    The African Cultural Development Association (ACDA) has reported that it applied to the European Union (EU) for funds for a Drum Museum and other social needs. The money was approved by the EU but the disbursement has been stymied by the government and so ACDA has not received the money. There is another instance in which the EU gave money to a Co-op comprising of Africans to assist in developing their farming methods. No sooner was the grant made that an East Indian wrote the EU protesting about the grant and at the same time informing the Minister of Agriculture of his actions. This was done without informing the Co-op members, and only the generosity of the EU facilitated the information reaching the members of the Co-op. Then too, there has been the systematic killing of young African men. There has been no systematic killings of the other ethnic groups. Whether it is by starvation or systematic murder, the PPP has been portraying a sustained and purposeful attempt to destroy Africans. This is genocide.

    Guyanese frequently tell me that they are “confused.” The confusion is not surprising for there is evidence of double standards and “double talk.” The President tells the nation that acting positions are not good in that persons needed to be confirmed in their positions to give them security of tenure and to give them the confidence to shield them from the Executive, but he creates acting positions. There are several acting positions in important arms of the state. There is an Acting Police Commissioner, Acting Judges, Acting DPP, Acting Auditor General, Acting Chief Justice and Acting Chancellor. We see images in the newspapers and on television of young men who have been tortured, but the state tells us that torture is not a part of its modus operandi and the wounds may be self-inflicted.

    We see that one set of laws and behaviors that apply to a particular group, do not apply to another. Young African men and the poor in the society are summarily executed while surrendering, or killed without firing at the police, or are jailed for committing violent crimes, or committing a robbery. But the white collar crimes that are primarily connected to the narcotics trade, money laundering, trafficking in persons and weapons, and corruption are operations that are above the law, and the culprits are very often not prosecuted. In fact, in a series of articles in Stabroek News (beginning on September 16, 2007), Clive Y. Thomas explains how the state has been reconstituted to become a criminal enterprise.

    Despite their criminality, he explains, the state expresses concerns about law and order in the society. However, these are concerns which apply to the ordinary citizens and not to the cabal who do not want their operations stymied. For example, the Minister of Human Services proclaimed a war on sexual violence, but no actions were taken when a Senior Minister in her government allegedly raped a young woman. Ordinary citizens are jailed for assault, but the President took no action against his Minister of Local government who assaulted a young man with a gun, knocked him down with his vehicle and then fired shots in the air. Young African men are criminalized and murdered for resisting their oppression; but as Clive Y. Thomas pointed out (“Above and beyond the law: The ruling elite in the criminal state,” = Stabroek News, September 16, 2007), the state is the same criminal gang which organizes the infamous “phantom force.” The people have all right to be confused by this double standard and double talk – it is a deliberate confusion aimed at making the people think that a moderate position will be taken, but it never happens. It is a confusion which also means that the agenda is to subordinate a group of people.

    A major confusion at the moment concerns the Judiciary where the President is attempting to govern the country in contradicting the rules of the Constitution. Due to the President’s intransigence in nominating no one other than Justice Carl Singh for the post of Chancellor, the Constitutional requirement that there be agreement between the President and the Leader of the Opposition has been unfruitful. The President blamed the Constitution for the impasse and went so far as to assert:

    “It was not the intention of the constitution reform commission for anything like this to happen and so we will have to find ways to set a precedent or make the necessary change to deal with this.”

    There is nothing wrong with the Constitution. The framers of the Constitution knew that Guyana has a racial problem and sought to heal the divisions by making provisions for consensual decisions. The “new precedent” that the President has decided on is to step outside of the Constitution and create the posts of Acting Chief Justice and Acting Chancellor. There are no such posts in the Constitution. The problem began in 2005 with the failure of an agreement between the President and the Leader of the Opposition on who should be the new Chancellor. The President named Justice Carl Singh who is/was the Chief Justice as an Acting Chancellor. In November 2007, Justice Ramlall ruled that one person cannot hold two posts at the same time. The Constitution has set up two courts and a head of each. There is no provision for one person to hold both positions, or for one person to act for another. The government has now decided to deflect the order in another way by creating two acting appointments which are outside of the Constitution. The disobeying of the Supreme Law has been going on for some time which indicates that the President would like to rule by fiat.
    Carl Singh with President Jagdeo
    What the government has never told the people is whether Justice Carl Singh was in receipt of two salaries – one for Chief Justice and another for Acting Chancellor. It is also known that he advises the government which means he has to be paid. So he is like Popeye – bowling and batting. The obtaining of several salaries is not only an aspect of the white collar crime that is destroying the country, but it reinforces the point made by Clive Y. Thomas (“Above and beyond the law: The ruling elite in the criminal state,” Stabroek News, September 16, 2007) that several persons in the cabal operate in several categories simultaneously.

    In Part 11, I will look at the response of the people to the violence that is being inflicted on them by the state

  • Sister Baby // January 31, 2008 at 12:09 AM

    I came here and gave my Guyanese experince and it was done innocently. If it had ever crossed my mind that I was writing things to incite riots againsts certain people then I would not have done my writings. But what I wrote is my Guyanese experience. So because of how my writings have been taken out of context I feel that I must apologise to everyone. For me the above is my Guyanese being, self, whatever, but to outsiders those are things that can incite hate and so on. I am not racist, I am not, but I am always perceived that way because of my Guyanese self. The late Dr. Cheddi Jagan was my hero, not Burnham, Hoyte, D’Aguiar, Barrow, Sangster, Bustamnate or Williams. Anyway, I am deeply sorry and I will keep my personals to myself, because the last thing I want is people gettung killed or denied opportunity to live in the country of their choice and so on.

  • Bimbro // January 31, 2008 at 3:41 AM

    Sister Babe, write whatever you want to write!!

    I’m not familiar with the things you’ve recounted and have found them informative and enlightening!! If anybody does n’t like it, just tell them what to do with themselves!!

    Fortunately, Bim is still a free-country!!!!

  • Adrian Hinds // January 31, 2008 at 9:32 AM

    Robert Hooke; I usually do not respond to anything much coming out of Britain, but i must call you on the big lie of any group of native born Brits coming together to protest anything in the streets. The only gathering in the streets that Brits will happily engage in is at the various watering holes that dot the streets of London, to get a good pint. I know i have to visit Londonistan so often becuase good help is hard to find there.

    ————Brits are too drunk too————-

    contain the growing threat of home grown muslim radicalism, and banning your own St.Georges flag in a failed attempt at appeasment will not get you the job of instructing anyone one immigration..

    Multiculturalism is a failed policy in Jolly Old Hingland again you can talk the talk but when inform person ask for the best practices to validate the talk very little will be forth coming.

    …Word reaching me is that your parliament just debated a bill that is intended to ban “elephants” as domestic pets. No body should take your country serously on past glory or at face value, i certainly will not.

    I stand by my words and can prove that Guyanese “flight” has been constant and that in the Barbados context they are blood suckers of the economy. It is record in succesive IMF consultation with Barbadian authorities dating back to 2001 that the influx of cheap labour to Barbados has led to a downward moderation of wages in Barbados. Do i need to tell you of the kind of dislocation that can occur to societies when families cannot pay their bills?

    You will not set the measuring stick for me and that i must use to guage the usefullness or the uselessness of Indo-Guyanese in Barbados. They may not be contributing to one family households in Barbados but their presense here may causing such an occurance back home, in fact we have a rise in murders amongst the guyanese community in Barbados committed by other guyanese.

  • Adrian Hinds // January 31, 2008 at 11:40 AM

    Sister Baby, the world has long stop listening too and following the dictates of the Brits. When Mr. Hooke comes to this forum he will be seen by me and others as any other commentator, certainly not as some overlord, or master of information or of best practices. He will be required to issue an acceptable definition of the word racism or racist, and then fit our comments to that definition. He will not be given a pass on this. If he is able to do this to my satisfaction then i will accept and apologize, and reword my comments to still illustrate my belief that the unslaught of migrant Indo-Guyanese to Barbados has had a negative economic and social impact to Barbados and Barbadian labourers, and that further economic impact will be realize if the economy of Barbados is affected by the goings on in the world economy. Any tightening of the economy usually affects those at the bottom the first, and this is where the illegal’s are, this is where they work without proper health coverage, proper schooling, and when those jobs go away what will these people be left to do?

  • Bimbro // January 31, 2008 at 12:36 PM

    Hooke, you’re FOs**t!! That’s why the UK is fast approaching what Adrian termed, ‘A Failed State’, because of excessively, ‘politically-correct’ **icks like you!!!

    If you’re so in favour of censoring comment, what on earth are you doing attending these blogs!! Why don’t you go and live in China or Russia and see how much freedom you’d enjoy, then!!!!

    We’re just emerging from a period in Bim’s history when numerous ills have been concealed by the regime of secrecy and lack of openness and you’re wanting more of the same!!

    Man, I think u know what u can do with yourself, as far as I’m concerned!!

    ******************************

    Robert Hooke; I usually do not respond to anything much coming out of Britain, but i must call you on the big lie of any group of native born Brits coming together to protest anything in the streets. The only gathering in the streets that Brits will happily engage in is at the various watering holes that dot the streets of London, to get a good pint.

    ***********************************

    Adrian, I neither know whether to agree or disagree with u on that point, as I don’t go to pubs (watering-holes), however, in my view the Brit. west indian community is a failed one who I could n’t see getting excited about anything, except, perhaps, the Notting Hill Carnival, which is why, if I could, I’d probably leave here tomorrow!!

    Adrian, to a large extent I agree with the unflattering view which you have of the UK, however, you said:

    “Sister Baby, the world has long stop listening too and following the dictates of the Brits”.

    Would it then surprise you that I see striking resemblances between some of the features of Britain & Bim, to wit:

    Huge immigration, a rise in crime, a shortage of housing, a lowering of wage rates, etc!

    I always maintained that Arthur was copying Blair’s policies virtually, to the letter!! I had visions of Arthur studying The Times each day to see what Blair’s latest policies were and implementing them almost to the letter, plus of course, as you know, Blair used to holiday in Bim, and the two of them were very, close!!!

    So, Brit. may have been more influencial on Bim than you realised!!!!

  • Adrian Hinds // January 31, 2008 at 1:03 PM

    ha ha ha ha Good point Bimbro. Now i have heard others say that sometimes Barbadians seem to think that Barbados is the world as they often say if not believe that God is a Bajan. :D But we all know that Barbados is not the world, and even if our government of the day pursues policies that don’t find favour with Barbadians then it cannot be said that Barbadians are listening to the Brits. But i take your point, it was well made.

  • Bimbro // January 31, 2008 at 2:43 PM

    Thanks, Adrian!

  • Robert Hooke // January 31, 2008 at 3:41 PM

    I have lived in Britain and the US. But I have been back in Barbados for a while. I gather Bimbro and Hinds do not live in Barbados today. Perhaps that is why they have not and connot respond to the following point:

    Like all racism, this is intended to distract people from the real and difficult issues. Our socio-economic problems are not caused by a few Guyanese Indians immigrants. Are Guyanese Indians contributing to one-parent families in Barbados? Are Guyanese Indians responsible for boys on the block? Are Guyanese Indians making us an uncompetitive economy? Are Guyanese Indians responsible for low-levels of productivity and service?

  • Thomas Gresham // January 31, 2008 at 5:18 PM

    Dear Adrian Hinds,

    The economic experts are not with you on the economic costs of immigration. (There are social consequences, but let us focus on the economics point for the moment.)

    The conventional wisdom in economics is that one thing that makes the US a dynamic economy, is the high level of immigration. Immigration lowers the cost of living and improves competitiveness.

    The slowdown of immigration to Silican Valley especially from (mainly Indian) graduates, after 9/11, is supposed to have hurt growth.

    Although a country is an economic winner as a whole from immigration, there are some losers, namely those whose productivity is lower than the immigrants – often unskilled poorly motivated workers. The immigrants dont always have a happy lot either.

    The solution to this is to raise productivity of local workers through better education and training and to make training easier through financial help, it is not to hold back the whole economy because of the lack of competitiveness of the unskilled, and low productivity part of the labour market.

    Which path is the one to economic success? To give moderated access to the country workers who will work harder for less and train our displaced workers to do more valued added work, or to deny access to immigrants and remain a high cost, low productivity economy?

    We know which is best. But there is an economic and, clearly a social, capacity limit to the pace of immigration. Given the benefits the economists disposition is how do we manage to raise that limit, not lower it. One measure of whether we are at that limit is the level of unemployment. Low levels of unemployment suggest we are not at the limit, rising levels would suggest we are approaching it. There are other measures of the limit which are more social in character and crime may be one. My understanding is that last year unemployment and crime levels were historically low.

  • larwood // January 31, 2008 at 6:59 PM

    Michael Howard,Economics Professor at UWI today wrote an open letter to PM Thompson calling for an end to illegal immigration. He intimated illegal immigration bodes ill for Barbados’ socio-economic health. Who are the illegal immigrants in his reference?

  • Bimbro // February 1, 2008 at 2:27 AM

    Robert Hooke // January 31, 2008 at 3:41 pm

    I have lived in Britain and the US. But I have been back in Barbados for a while. I gather Bimbro and Hinds do not live in Barbados today. Perhaps that is why they have not and connot respond to the following point:

    Like all racism, this is intended to distract people from the real and difficult issues. Our socio-economic problems are not caused by a few Guyanese Indians immigrants. Are Guyanese Indians contributing to one-parent families in Barbados? Are Guyanese Indians responsible for boys on the block? Are Guyanese Indians making us an uncompetitive economy? Are Guyanese Indians responsible for low-levels of productivity and service?

    ****************************

    What’s the relevance of this????? Are germs responsible for diseases???? So, lets wait until we get the diseases before saying germs are n’t good for you!!!!

    WTF, r u talking about, Sir?!!!!

    As you’ve indicated, we’ve enough of our own germs, already!!!! We don’t need any more germs, or diseases!!

  • Bimbro // February 1, 2008 at 2:31 AM

    The slowdown of immigration to Silican Valley especially from (mainly Indian) graduates, after 9/11, is supposed to have hurt growth.

    ****************************

    Ok, G. So, why don’t we just allow unlimited immigration into Bim!!! That would make u happy, would n’t it!!!! p*ick!!!!

  • Analyst // February 1, 2008 at 11:00 AM

    My research in Barbados shows the following. I will focus on the Indians in Barbados as this is the focus of this thread:

    1. Indians, especially those from India, are quietly buying up many properties Barbados especially in the downtown area. They are also first in line when properties are being auctioned off at low prices. Check it for yourself!

    2. Swan Street and many of the small shops selling basic foodstuff are now in Indian hands. Barbadians have followed the Afro-Guyanese in being averse to investing in self sustaining commerce. They prefer to buy BMW taxis and other depreciating investments.

    3. The Muslim traders who are also of Indian descent come from Pakistan, India and other countries. They keep to themselves while they amass fortunes selling trinkets and knock-off to the mostly Afro-Carbadians.

    4. Afro-Guyanese who are in Barbados legally intend to stay as they do not like the Indian dominated society of Barbados. The illegal ones hope t stay as long as possible and many hope to return to Guyana if things change there economically. Many of the Indo Guyanese are here to make money and send back home. Many have told me that they are building bank accounts to build their homes there. Others have seen Barbados and like it so they will stay and even marry people here in order to stay legally.

    5. It is my rough estimate that there are at least 10,000 Guyanese living in Barbados without legal status so any effort to change or regularize the immigration enforcement will be a big job. I should also say that there are at least that number from other countries, including Britain, who live here without status and overstay their alloted time.

    Some Barbadian people are upset because of the percived economic competition in some jobs, commerce and plain envy that some people sem to be making so much money … and they are not even Bajans.

    The economic opportunities will always be there as the CSME encourages investment from the region so I do not see how they will stop that. The white and other local business people are already concerned by the looming competition which is only now beginning.

    As I said in another post on BU, Guyanese have to build Guyana. There is potential oil there in the billions of barrels. They also have potential hydro projects that could supply northern Brazil and even Barbados with electricity. The main problem with Guyana is that they are exporting their people and their economic/social problems to other countries – just as Mexico does to the USA. Guyana has to look inward and build its economy and attract others to Guyana to build it.

    As for Barbados… well… who knows… there are so many issues that they have to solve for themselves. We live in a changing world, but that does not say we cannot try to control the RATE of change to ensure social stability and economic viability and sustainability.

    Analyst

  • Bimbro // February 1, 2008 at 1:35 PM

    Analyst, thank you for that last post. I have n’t read it all but I have enough to see that Bim is finished thanks to the idiocy of our last government, for allowing all those Indians into the place and to buy-up Bim!!

    ‘Sir’, said, during the election something about not wanting the DLP to regain power for a very, long time. For committing such a crime, the BLP should be kept out of power, indefinitely!!!!

    We were obviously, mistaken to trust Bim in their hands!!!!

    The DLP, had better reverse the policy, and immediately, otherwise, BIM WILL BE LOST TO US, NATIVE BARBADIANS!!!!

  • Warrior // February 1, 2008 at 4:50 PM

    From the Nations news
    Fugitive says he killed villagers
    Published on: 1/30/08.

    GEORGETOWN – A man purporting to be Rondell “Fineman” Rawlins, Guyana’s most wanted fugitive, has admitted responsibility for Saturday’s massacre in which 11 people – including five children – from Lusignan village were slaughtered in a pre-dawn raid.

    The man also threatened to create history if his “wife” was not returned alive.

    Kidnapped

    “Rawlins” also claimed he had checked all the hospitals, airport and even in Suriname and Barbados, so he is convinced that his “wife” had been kidnapped.

    He said that she could not be in Suriname and Barbados, where he has “people,” and someone not call him.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I wonder has anyone – no let me ask the correct question? Has the law enforcement offices and officers in Barbados taken special note of this link. This is as serious as a heart attack, what is his link with Barbados, drugs guns prostitution, human trafficking. One man is so powerful that he holds a whole country to ransom. What would have happened if she was found in Barbados. Would he have caused mayhem in Barbados as well.

    Now does anyone see why it is pertinent that all illegal Guyanese be rounded up and deported forthwith from this island.

    The laws in terms of citizenship must be altered, since a lot of Guyanese women are getting pregnant for foolish Bajan men only to stay here, foolish Bajan men who can’t keep their penis in their pants, their money in their pocket, or their brains in their head. Know that the guyanese women out for one thing and the men joining in the scam them as well, they

    Norman Farria should really be deported and exiled, other countries in the caribbean working for a common good trying to export their produce.

    What is it that Guyana is exporting? one really must ask

    Many posters on this and other blogs have voiced their concerns about the influx of guyanese – period – and it seems that the sentiments have been ignored

  • Analyst // February 2, 2008 at 12:10 AM

    Hello Warrior:
    For your info – Honorary Consul for Barbados. Mr. Norman Faria is a born Barbadian. I think his father may be Guyanese. Where will you “deport” him to??? Oh yes ! Guyana??

    You seem rather concerned about what Guyana exports. Well it exports some goods like gold, diamonds, rice and agricultural products… some of it to Barbados.

    However another lucrative export is in the transshipment of cocaine, the byproduct of another agricultural product from Columbia.

    Most of all it exports PEOPLE to all over the world. Barbados and Trinidad and Antigua have had the most immigration in this region. However Canada and the USA and the UK has also been attractive, but getting harder to penetrate due to more stringent immigration rules. But the “backtrack” (smuggling of people using false passports) is a growth industry in Guyana. so they can get you in if you pay.

    A man was caught with 143 passports and stamps for different countries last year – Result? No charges – no law on the books for that … can you believe it. last week they found a barrel of counterfeit notes at the Customs unclaimed after a year. It was now half full as the Customs insiders helped themselves. Perfect notes imported from the UK. Kaieteur News had a picture on their front page last week.

    People export is therefore Guyana’s most lucrative export. It also takes pressure off the government to find meaningful employment for people or open the country to investment… not just talk about it but really make it happen. There are vested interests in Guyana who like it the way it is as they do not want competition as they rape the country’s natural resources… check how they are shipping raw logs to India and China and not paying any duties or taxes… payoffs to forestry people… companies fined… people dismissed… but that is peanuts… the country is being raped.

    The Brazilians are coming in and ripping up the rivers dredging for diamonds and using lots of mercury in gold production and polluting the streams and fish… screwing up the health of the Amerindians – the original inhabitants of Guyana. Brazilians are basically overrunning Guyana right now and there is really no immigration controls on them. They have money to pay off everyone.

    Do not worry though the government is saying… everybody get paid off… sounds familiar?

    Then there are the remittances from all over the world coming in to support families and make life easier for everyone… Estimated at about 20% of GDP, remittances are necessary to keep Guyana afloat and help with its development. Over US$400 million a year is big money for Guyana.

    President Jagdeo should be telling people to stay home and build Guyana. Maybe ghe does tell them that but it is NOT a mantra I hear from his party – the PPP… The party is an elected dictatorship with just 55% of the votes in the 2006 elections… they behave like they have 90% of the votes… getting rich and building while they build their other homes in Florida and New York in Queens.

    Barbados is close to Guyana… the air fares are reasonable and they can come here for a holiday and never return… Maybe one day things will change in Guyana and Barbadians can come and enjoy their hospitality…. without fear.. Also that Barbadians will see Guyana as an asset rather than a liability. I think we all hope that day will be soon.

    Analyst

  • passing through south // February 2, 2008 at 11:56 AM

    Mr Analyst u are in correct in some of your statements.first alot of the muslim traders u see around barbados are born in barbados and they are second generation barbadians.Yes a few are from india or pakistan but majority are also born locally,but just because their appearance is still of that of an indian it is automatic that they too are born in india and pakistan.Alot of the muslim indians u see with stores and selling in the country side are educated in local schools also and they have chosen not to spend their money on alot of the small things in life and thus save their money and use it in investment,is something wrong with that? Also when u talk of the ones who are bidding at the auctions, have u ever asked anyone or ur self how he can afford this, because i am talking from knowledge that quiet a few of these guys were really poor growing up and had to work and save in difficult ways and then use their earnings and investment to reach where they are today,but no you would never think of it that way, all you see is indians buying up the place.Everyone is entitled and is able to go buy properties and stuff but some choose to party and stuff with their money while others tend to live a simple basic life and then use their savings to make better for themselves but no you see a problem with it.get up and open your eyes to reality and stop crying down people for what they have worked hard to achieve.

  • David // February 2, 2008 at 1:48 PM

    passing through south we think the point has already been made that Barbadians are concerned about the open immigration policy practiced by the last government. It is not directed at those Indians who are from the Asian continent or their offspring. The concern is targeted at a young group of unskilled Indo-Guyanese entering Barbados in great numbers. Many Barbadians are saying we need to manage this group along with others to ensure Barbados develops in a way the majority of Barbadians would want to have it. As far as we are aware there is nothing wrong with the majority of Barbadians wanting Barbados to develop the way the majority of Barbadians want it.

    Simple as that and don’t feed us this globalization or xenophobic crap!

  • Thomas Gresham // February 2, 2008 at 2:55 PM

    Dear Passing through south,

    I think you are quite right. It is racism that steers people away from the fact that the people who own the country and the companies are the plantocracy and that in trying to overcome the economic power of the plantocracy we have a lot we can learn from immigrants, their saving, their entrepreneurism and their family life. This is the same elsewhere. Numerous economic studies show that economic dynamism often come from immigrants. The most dynamic parts of Canada, the US, UK and many other countries are run by immigrants, and it benefits everyone else.

    Beyond the blindness of the xenophobia you see on these pages, is the fact that no country can succeed in today’s world by putting its head in the sand and being so xenophobic. Any lover of Barbados who travels frequently will recognise that one of our key problems is insufficient exposure to the methods and standards of other places.

    I am sufficiently self-confident of my Barbadianess that I think if we had 10% of our population who were immigrants, it would be positive thing and not a negative thing.

    But what the racists do not wish to accept is that there is not a significant minority of people who look Indian, but were born here to parents who lived here most of their lives and are Barbadian. You come across these Barbadians in school, at work and abroad and all the ones I know are an asset to this country’s economic development.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 2, 2008 at 3:33 PM

    Dear David,

    I hope you are well.

    I hope I am not misrepresenting you, but you and others on this blog have put forward the view that we have had an open door immigration policy, though my personal experience of this is more mixed, and you are particularly concerned about the presence of Guyanese Indians in Barbados, for a host of, primarily social reasons, linked to the violence we see occurring, tragically, in our neighbours. This is an important issue which you have addressed form a social perspective and I would like to critically assess from an economist’s perspective.

    First, we are running the economy fast, as evidenced by a historically low unemployment rate and a large current account deficit. Rising immigration is merely one side-effect of high growth and if we did not have that immigration, local costs would have had to have risen substantially more, and it would have choked off growth. So, if you want less immigration you will get higher living costs and lower growth – if nothing else were to change. US economists would call that “Economics 101” as it is an irrefutable observation in theory and fact.

    Take the example of the cost of domestic services like getting a plumber or electrician, or helper, or the cost of building more affordable homes, or the cost of staff at retailers and elsewhere. Without the immigrants the competition for the locals prepared to do the same job would push up labour costs which will impact all costs, will also reduce margins and lower growth.

    You may decide that the social costs of immigration outweigh the economic benefits. You would prefer higher costs, higher unemployment and lower growth in order to keep out what you see as the social ills of having more Guyanese Indians here. I accept that you see these social ills, but I do not at current levels of immigration. The immigrants are largely people who keep to themselves, save their money and for the most part work-hard and if you consider these to be bad lessons for Barbadians, then we live in a different Barbados. I do accept that social ills may arise at some higher level of immigration.

    There is another “social” benefit I see from the current level of immigration. We have a cosy business-sector dominated by a handful of people that may be fairly or unfairly called the plantocracy. Who will shake up this sector? Who will take risks with their savings to compete? Who has the risk-taking and saving culture to do it? Immigrants. This is the story everywhere in the world where the most dynamic parts of an economy are where immigrants are focused. But maybe again, you think the social-ills of immigrants is too big a price to pay for giving the plantocracy a run for their money. Thank you for letting me put this other perspective.

  • Thistle // February 2, 2008 at 4:27 PM

    Mr. Gresham,

    Please excuse me for butting in. I am not an academic such as yourself – I just have a smattering of common sense. I have a few questions for you in connection with Indo-Guyanese. Do you accept that many of them are Muslims? (Yes, others are Hindus but as far as I know, Hindus do not go around chopping off peoples’ heads). Do you think the British knew what would be the outcome of opening wide their doors to Asians from Uganda, Pakistan and other countries way back in the 1960’s and 70’s? (Only one Englishman had such foresight and that was Enoch Powell). Do you think the British thought for one moment that they would be blown sky high in their trains, buses and on the streets – BY PEOPLE THEY OPENED THEIR DOORS AND HOSPITALITY TO??? I could go on and on, Mr. Gresham, but the long and the short of it is that I really do not wish to see Mosques springing up all over Barbados and to see our island taken over by Islam. I would rather be dead.

  • David // February 2, 2008 at 4:30 PM

    Mr. Gresham we recommend one of our earlier articles for your reading demystification. We have no problem with immigration. We are tired repeating this statement now. All we ask is for the current open door policy to be checked. Developed countries are now slamming the door on open immigration and we know that they are blessed with more resources than our little islands. What makes you feel that a developing country like Barbados can operate without weighing the checks and balances?

  • Straight talk // February 2, 2008 at 6:06 PM

    David:

    Please give your evidence of the”open-door policy”.

    I, through experience, will dispute your claim.

    Is it your perception, or an actual fact?

  • passing through south // February 2, 2008 at 6:57 PM

    mr thistle alot of the ones blowing up buses and trains r black also and r from africa also, so what do u say to that that we should b vigilant of any one who has ancestory roots in africa?r the ones chopping each others head off in kenya asian also? are the ones creating all the problems all over africa asian also? dos this mean we keep an eye on all blacks because blacks in africa are killing each other? some people really need a reality check

  • Thistle // February 2, 2008 at 7:53 PM

    You not only need a brain, you need a little intelligence too. I won’t even bother to dignify your ignorant remarks by answering.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 2, 2008 at 8:15 PM

    Dear Thistle,

    The majority of Indo-Guyanese in Guyana are Hindu. The issue of Islam and terrorism is a more complex one than you imply or that I cannot do justice here without David reminding me to keep to the issue at hand.

    Dear David,

    It is not credible to start off threads entitled “Indian racism against Afro-Guyanse”; “Can Indians and Africans co-exist in Barbados” and the earlier one on Trinidadian and Guyanese violence and then say, in a coy “voice”, that all you are saying is that we should have more checks and balances on our immigration.

    No one would argue against that, but many argue against the implication of the threads that the level of Indo-Guyanese in Barbados is one of our most serious issues – and one requiring us to have three blogs on the issue in a week or so.

    I notice that you have not answered the point of my last note, that less immigrants means higher cost of living, and slower growth (and one of the implications of that is higher unemployment and crime.) If you want more checks and balances, you mean you want less immigration (otherwise you are just adding regulation to no effect). So do you believe that the social ills are so grave that you are prepared to accept a higher cost of living and lower growth in order to reduce immigration?

    Higher immigration is of net economic benefit to the country, though there will be winners (Bajan consumers) and losers (low skilled Bajans). The economic benefits must be used to minimise the costs on the losers through better access to training and income transfers to low skilled workers.

    If you do not wish to pay for reduced immigration through a higher cost of living and lower growth, I suggest we move on.

  • Bajan-2-D-Bone // February 2, 2008 at 8:52 PM

    Can Indians and Blacks Co-Exist in Barbados? I thought we have been for the past several decades. However, although we have gone to school together how many black bajans can say that they, as adults, socialize with their former classmates of east indian descent? i can’t. That’s because there are in most cases in a different social class.
    I’m an admirer of the way that Indians prosper (generally) where ever they go and that is a growing source of animosity for the local communities across the globe. The thing is Indians have a strong belief in the family structure and a great love for their culture and history which naturally leads to a desire to preserve all things Indian (check London…de brits aint speaking out loud but trust me dem tinkin it evuhday). There is nothing wrong in my eyes with preserving your identity.
    Honestly, i am concerned with number of illegal Indo-Guyanese in bim. i guess that is because i can’t tell an Afro-Guyanese from a black bajan ’til he open he mout’ (duh). if i could, then i’d be concerned with the number of illegal Guyanese in bim. It’s true that we should be open-minded and realize that imigration is a trait of human beings. We are in the globalization era. People gine be moving bout from place to place for whatever reason. But…Barbados is too small to have anybody black, white, pink, purple or blue coming here and living willy-nilly. we can’t be a refuge for all the sick, poor and down-trodden. Yuh can’t open yuh front door an’ let evuhbody come in. There needs to be control of the people who you allow to live and work in your country. (I watching dis caribbean crime ting, CSME and free movement of people carefully.) What we want is to have immigrants who are going to benefit our economy as well as our society regardless of where they come from. We don’t need people bringing their anti-social and racially discriminatory behaviours to our shores. There seems to be plenty of that in Guyana and t&t (i don’t know). There is no denying that that there is racial divide in these countries. Which country doesn’t. We ain’t got much ‘Indians’ as these two countries but still this topic stirs up plenty o’ emotion. I think bajans and peaceful, generous people and we and anybody cud live together. I think anybody of East Indian descent living in Barbados (wid de exception i guess o’ de las’ couple years) cud complain about how they are treated in Barbados. But what we must not be is complacent and allow Barbados…. our country, and our traditions to be overrun by others. We can’t be as open as large countries like de USA, Canada, Europe etc. But we can’t be racist and say get rid of de Guyanese when we really mean Indo-Guyanese. Black and Indian Guyanese in Barbados and nuff of dem bout hey bringing there crime to our country. How that gang leader in Guyana say his wife is not in bim dat somebody wudduh tell he. he like he’s a big fish yuh!! what dat telling yuh bout illegal immigrants in bim?
    As for black bajans, what we need to do is to take a page from de Indo-Bajan book and see how well they are progressing in Barbados, setting up successful businesses, professions, buying property, investing there money wisely. almost all of them came here poor (correct me if i’m wrong). Wunna fuhget bout de coolie man? Coolie man ain’t driving uh old suzuki super carry no more…toyota hiace and merceded vans to transport he tings if you please. we businesses ain’t progressing. look at sawh and mrs. ram. All we want to do is lime pun de block, smoke nuff weed, sleep wid bare young girls, buy big car, big chain, an brand name clothes, den complain when we have to actually work for we pay. Evuhting is a big bashment or fete. There are many more ills in bajan society than the number of so-called ‘indians’ living here. Our society is decaying man…bim gine down de drain. i see it in schools..de van stand….de streets…evuhway. OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

  • passing through south // February 2, 2008 at 8:54 PM

    mr thistle what happenw hen someone bring a point to u u back off.ignorance man.and who r u to question my intellingence

  • passing through south // February 2, 2008 at 9:02 PM

    sorry for the spelling, i was typing in a hurry

  • Thomas Gresham // February 2, 2008 at 9:08 PM

    Dear Bajan-2-D-bone,

    Well said brother

  • passing through south // February 2, 2008 at 9:10 PM

    bajan 2 de bone.this is for u.i am not shame to say i am of “indian heritage” born and lived in barbados and went to school in barbados.You say you don;t socialise with indians u went to schoolw ith.here is a view form the opposite side.I and alot of us indians keep contact with alot fo our old classmates right through but where the clash comes is is when our old classmates want to socialise they want to do it in a bar or over drinks or over talking about women and stuff and few or maybe alot of indians are not up for it.If it is general talk and in a general atmosphere we dont; mind but when our friends try to encourage us into the dirnks and fetes and parties and stuff tha tis when we keep our distances.(some of us do) this is my point of view

  • Bajan-2-D-Bone // February 2, 2008 at 9:46 PM

    passing through south. clearly u’ve misunderstood what is said or meant to say. i wrote “However, although we have gone to school together how many black bajans can say that they, as adults, socialize with their former classmates of east indian descent? i can’t. That’s because there are in most cases in a different social class.” i’m saying that i CAN’T say i socialize with them because they are generally in a DIFFERENT SOCIAL CLASS. i’m not saying i dont. I went to an older secondary school therefore many of my schoolmate were of a DIFFERENT SOCIAL CLASS than me. i have no idea how old you are or where you went to school but i was giving it from my perspective. You aren’t the only one who avoids socializing of the nature you mention. I’m also that way as well. if you really read my comment you would see that i’ve given indo-bajans or what evuh term ppls care to use (bajan iz bajan to me) great credit for their way of living and socializing. Read more carefully and dont be quick to pass judgement.

  • Bajan-2-D-Bone // February 2, 2008 at 9:50 PM

    Thomas Gresham. thanks for the reply.

  • Bush tea // February 2, 2008 at 10:15 PM

    I am really getting tired of this particular thread. Mainly because most contributors seem to be focused on projecting their own particular bias without regard to any particular logic or attempt to see alternative views.

    This is not a very complex matter. The question is:

    Should we adopt open borders such that any and every one should be able to travel, work and reside here in Barbados?

    Hardly anyone objects to situations where non-nationals marry bajans and come to live here.
    Few object to cases where foreigners apply legally for the proper status and come to live in Barbados.

    The problem comes from illegal, undocumented immigration of persons who have failed in their own country and who now perceive that their welfare is better served in Barbados. Most come, not to see what they can do for Barbados – but to exploit what Barbados can do for them.

    Now I would like those who support this open-door policy to tell me if they are willing to open their homes to the many less fortunate persons EVEN IN THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD, to come in and live with them…..

    Will you allow an open door policy in your home for these seeking refuge to come in and share with your family -while bringing their culture and ways which led to the failure of their own homes in the first place?

    Have any of you ever even adopted or fostered a child?

    Where do you get off insisting that Bajans should open their little 166 sq mile home to all and sundry?

    Anyone who is supportive of this national open door policy but who is not willing to adopt the same approach with their own home is nothing but a hypocrite talking pretty words to impress….

    ..and I am getting tired of it.

  • Analyst // February 3, 2008 at 3:38 AM

    I will try to just concentrate on what I consider an important topic that has to be addressed before the people in the streets address it:

    My concern in relation to Barbados is as follows:
    1. That Barbados is a small island and can only absorb a limited number of people.

    2. That the level of immigrants competition for the low paying jobs will be moving up to the higher paying jobs – natural progression.

    3. There is a possible world recession looming and many of the jobs in building and trades may be drastically reduced. Are these trades men going back home to GT or wherever they came from?

    4. The illegals put extreme pressure on legal immigrants as they have to be on the defensive all the time. The shady behavior of some illegals is not an asset.

    5. My personal experiences with Indians? Well, I admire their attributes, but I notice a behavior pattern that is obvious in both Trinidad and Guyana. – MOST of them feel that they are superior to people of African heritage.

    6. In Barbados this is the same as well. The rich Indians have no social use for Barbadians except as consumers and workers. I do not care if they are born here or not… they just like the local whites who feel that they are born to rule. … and get as rich as possible as quickly as possible.

    7. The cultural divide is great and manifests itself where there is political power through numbers. This is reflected in Guyana there is an obvious policy to marginalize Afro-Guyanese and eventually make Guyana an Indian country with Indian migration.- an Indian outpost of Mother India. Afro-Guyanese are going to ensure that will not happen.(Read the columnist Freddie Kissoon in Kaieteur News Saturday Jan 8,2008, and you will understand more about WHY thore is a guerrilla war going on in Guyana masked as banditry.

    8. Barbados cannot take more Indians simply because they do not easily integrate in the Barbados society. Their culture looks yo Mother India. It is as if every Afro-Barbadian listened almost always to African music and looked daily to Africa as their cultural homeland (maybe they should) – and Barbados is just a place to make money

    that is the reality in MOST cases… as there are numerous exceptions.

    I am just an analyst reporting as I see it..

    I am not a Barbadian, but I do understand what is happening and the concern they have of losing what is truly Barbadian.
    .
    GOD BLESS BARBADOS!

    Analyst

  • Bimbro // February 3, 2008 at 3:53 AM

    3. There is a possible world recession looming

    ****************************

    Analyst, if u use dah word roung hay again!!!! – recession!!!!

    There’ll be no recession & you’re a doom-monger, not to mention, merchant!!!!

    *********************************

    I am not a Barbadian,

    ******************************

    Well, there’s the answer you see, Analyst. If u were Barbadian you’d be much more circumspect about using such terms, as optimistic and confident in our ability to deal with any possible, problem, nevermind crisis!!

    Bim is an optimistic, place!! We don’t know the meaning of the word recession and neiher do we want to!!

    Welcome to the cherished, land of optimism – Bim!!!! :)

  • Anonymous // February 3, 2008 at 5:51 AM

    Analyst and Bush Tea,thank you for your reasoned contribution – there are a whole lot of indians,whites and black bajans coming on this site whose interest it is to keep these indo guyanese flowing in this country.

    I hope somebody is pointing these things out to this new government.

    Trust me,do the research and see,indians are GENERALLY not an asset to ANY society they emigrate to.

    Their only aim is to make money,so they look for some socially and financially deprived community,better yet if persons of african descent are in the majority ,and they then proceed to bring in their junk and their trinkets to sell and deprive these communities even more.

    Persons of african descent need to open their eyes and speak with their dollars,buy only those things you need,and support your own people more.

    Check out the businesses indians go into.

    It is always buying and selling,importing rubbish and draining our foreign reserves.

    It is never researching and going into a new field of manufacturing something that builds the name and prestige of our country.

    It is always trying to sell something cheap for a profit or something that could exploit afro bajans.

    So they own a large number of ZRs,but they make sure their children don’t travel on it or interact with those kinda people.

    They don’t care if all the nigger people and them childeren get killed,get raped,get Aids,once the driver bring in he quota of money per day.

    They take over stores like Brydens,and others in Bridgetown and before you can say -pepp,peep, they turn the whole place into a cheap,indian bazaar with little,little spots renting out to foolish blacks for nough,nough money and all kinda cheap pieces of cloth and cheap shiny things hanging up all over the door,all over the walls – just like in Bombay.

    They got bridgetown looking like calcutta or something – just like a cheap run down slum.

    Afro or black bajans need to learn to keep their money in their pockets and stop buying every cheap thing these people put out for sale.

    I rarely buy anything from these stores.

    Finally like I have said before look to those other countries where there are mixed communities and where there are large number of indians living and you will see how much hatred there is by the indians against those persons of african descent.

    Read about what happened to Fiji.

    These unskilled,poor,unsrupulous indo guyanese are only waiting for their chance when they feel they are strong,enough and numerically significant enough before they make thier true intentions known to these ignorant,unsuspecting bajans – who feel we all are one nice big family.

    Soon,they will be asking for indian bank holidays,indians (hindu)only schools,indian religions to be part of every thing national.

    See what happened in Britain,the english people who like to be politically correct felt by encouraging them to keep their tradtions and not integrate into british societies that they were doing a good thing.

    Now they are creating havoc in Britain.Setting up enclaves all over that country and have violent confrontations as we saw about 2 years ago in Birmingham and a few other cities.

    They are insisting their children go to catholic private schools (becuse they are the best schools),even though they are not catholics and the schools are for catholics only.

    They go into formerly tranquil places like Oxford etc and set up mosques and blast out their call to pray at various times during the day and when the majority indigenous,british poulation complain – these indians cry ‘racism’.

    Although they are born in Britain they hate britain and all things british and plot how to kill,maim and destroy those very people who allow them in.

    I could go on and on,but I encourage bajans to read for yourself and see the danger that lies ahead.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 6:25 AM

    Dear Bush Tea et al,

    No one is arguing for an open door policy. That’s a straw man.

    On what basis would you limit immigration? In some countries they do it on a points system, with points based on needy skills. In a way the CSME approach (only graduates) points in that direction. (Though I must point out that many graduates I know are finding it very hard to get the permits.)

    This is not open door. The open door bit is only if we dont care about sending overstayers back. I dont think the immigration and police force would say they dont send people back – people are being sent back every night – but you may argue – and I do not know – that they could be a lot more effective than they are at sending people back.

    In this case, all you then need to do is to be better at catching overstayers, wherever they are form, be it Guyana, Jamaica, St Lucia, or Britain and all this gunk about Indo-Guyanese is just irrelevant.

    The points system approach, used by Canada I believe, tends to make sense to those who are not keen on many immigrants, but many economists question that. Unskilled, economically hungry immigrants are actually the dynamic bit.

    Alternatively, you could invest more in finding overstayers and work out what you want our population size and growth to be, and let that imply a number of people we could give temporary residency permits to. You could then allocate half of those permits on the basis of points (graduates, or qualifications in skills that are of short supply in Barbados) and half by a lottery. The US system is closer to that. We would have to make sure neither approach is vulnerable to bribery.

    What is the right level of immigration? Someone estimated that they might be 10,000 illegal immigrants in Bim. I dont know the basis of such an estimate and it seems a little high for me, but let us take that as a benchmark.

    Let us say we do our calculation of our capacity and we conclude that the maximum amount of immigrants we would give a temporary residency permit to each year would be a modest 1.5% net of our labour force, or 0.5% of our population.

    This would probably push our long-run economic growth rate up by around 1.5% or more, from 3-4% to 5% (and would push our underlying inflation rate down too) and that’s probably both desirable and within our social and economic capacity, especially when many other countries are growing at 5-10%.

    1.5% labour force growth is around 1500 people per year. Over 15 years that would be 22,500. I doubt we are actually very far from that number.

    The point of these back of the envelope calculations is that while no one supports an “open door” policy, or not to have sufficient “checks and balances” but that the idea that things would be dramatically different if we had a more managed system is suspect.

    Moreover, if you would reduce the rate much below this there will be economic consequences you may not like. The Barbados unemployment rate is at a record low. Whenever that happens in any country you get more immigration than normal and without it, living costs would be higher and growth lower. It is not black and white, or even black and brown, there are trade-offs. If you want a more competitive, fast-growing economy with good, high paying jobs for locals, you cannot have something that looks more “closed door” than whatever we do have today.

  • David // February 3, 2008 at 6:39 AM

    Thomas please return to earth soon!

    We define immigration currently at practice in Barbados as open because there is no plan that we know of where Guyanese or any other group are monitored and routinely picked up for overstaying. Currently it is done on an ad hoc basis and most Barbadians on the ground know that a large cadre of illegal immigrants are currently in Barbados.

    Your other argument about the impact of immigration on lowering prices in Barbados, who is making that point? Those of us who are concerned about the immigration problem in Barbados centre our arguments around illegal immigrants and the lack of a management of the problem which ultimately leads to socio-economic issues especially in small countries.

  • Bimbro // February 3, 2008 at 8:38 AM

    Anonymous // February 3, 2008 at 5:51 am

    Analyst and Bush Tea,thank you for your reasoned contribution –

    ********************************

    I’m sorry that you don’t appreciate, MY, contribution ‘A’ but I absolutely, agree with everything that u said!!

    So, the Indians, own the ZRs!!!! My god, Bim is finished!!!!

    And the BLP, allowed all that to happen!!!! My god, what a pity they were n’t kicked-out, ages ago!!!!

    ****************************

    These unskilled,poor,unsrupulous indo guyanese are only waiting for their chance when they feel they are strong,enough and numerically significant enough before they make thier true intentions known to these ignorant,unsuspecting bajans – who feel we all are one nice big family.

    *********************************

    Absolutely, agree with u here, too!!!!

    *********************************

    See what happened in Britain,the english people who like to be politically correct

    *********************************

    ‘A’, u may be able to see, now, why I HAVE ABSOLUTELY, NO TIME, AT ALL FOR POLITICAL-CORRECTNESS!! IT WORKS TO THE DETRIMENT OF OUR OWN PEOPLE!!!! When I try to explain matters like this to less knowing people, they’re unable to understand!!!!

    ‘A’, I’m so pleased that you have experience of the British situation because when I explain the Bajans don’t believe, neither about how the Jamaicans have ruined Britain for west indians!!

    Anyhow, one subject at a time!!!! Agree, completely, with everything you’ve said there, ‘A’. They won’t be convinced by me so hopefully, they will be by you, but the real truth of the matter is that black people are so vain!!!! As long as they’ve got nice, material objects they don’t seem to care about anything else, meanwhile the enemy’s hard at work undermining everything they’ve ever achieved and quietly, taking it away from them!!!! One day they may wake-up to find that they own, actually, nothing at all!!!!

  • Bush Tea // February 3, 2008 at 9:30 AM

    Mr Gresham

    I don’t really want no lotta long talk with you on this subject.

    How many non -family members live in your home?
    How many indigents do you allow to come and live with your family per month?

    When you provide those answers, I will tell you my figures for immigration limits.

  • passing through south // February 3, 2008 at 9:55 AM

    indians own the zrs and the businesses in town so it problem ahahahhaha.why travel in a zr when you have your own car at your own convenience and have a family member to take you when you so desire??common sense isn;t it.have you ever did a survey in town and this is fact indians sell cheap yeah and then the same black own businesses sell the same exact thing the indians sell which was bought from the same place overseas,but sell for a much higher price and some ppl like u think its authentic or better quality.what a level of thinking.they are only a very very few stores in town who sell top quality and that is very few.come wid facts

  • passing through south // February 3, 2008 at 9:57 AM

    when the blacks were busy buying expensive cars and feeding all the women their money and blinging all the jewellery the indians were buying zr’s and so whose fault is that hey.some people just want to enjoy the fruits of life then complain when others move ahead. 2 de bone if i took ur comment out of context my apologizes

  • Anonymous // February 3, 2008 at 10:22 AM

    Bimbro & others

    Britain isn’t the only place where the negative effects of the immigrants from the asian subcontinent canbe see;check out France,Germany,Italy AND MOST IMPORTANTLY CHECK OUT FIJI- which has similarities to us here in Barbados.

    Fiji is a small island,indigenous people mainly of african descent,and a mainly christian and peace loving people.

    The indians were brought in the early 1900s to help work the sugar cane fields and quick so they started multyplying and bringing in more of their people fron India etc ,and within a couple of decades they had outstripped the local fijian population.

    Theythen started to openly display clannish behaviour,that is ‘only things indian and keeping to themselves’.
    They also managed to get into the business sector,but more importantly the political arena – and that’s where things got out of hand.

    Fiji,Guyana,Birmingham/England and to a lesser extent Trinidad are all examples for the barbadian people to see and to ensure doesnot happen in our country.

    A word to the wise is enough.

  • Anonymous // February 3, 2008 at 11:05 AM

    Check out a statement made by a Mr Inshan Ishmael of Trinidad – a used car dealer who operates out of an area called the Bamboo:’He stated that he and others have just returned from offering the people of Guyana ( who suffered the massacre) some help and he is telling the people of trinidad to stand up and fight.

    He also threatened the government of Trinidad that:”if they push him he will push back hard”.

    See the Guyana – Trinidad connection and Indian solidarity.

    Things that make you go hmmm.

    Oh by the way Inshan Ishmael is of indian descent and a financier and supporter of the UNC Basdeo Panday party.

  • Bajan-2-D-Bone // February 3, 2008 at 11:30 AM

    Anonymous, what do you consider to be an asset to society? Have you done the research on Indian immigration across the globe? An asset is anything or person of value in this case to the society. In Barbados it is clear to see the value of Indian immigrants to the society. The older generation have provided low income households with many essentials they readily would not be able to purchase from Dacosta’s , Cave Shepherd etc. Many bajans wudduh had to suck salts had not for de coolie man, Abeds and de other cheap stores you talk about. Why are you complaining about these stores? If you wish you cud open a $1 store if you want and sell your trinkets cuz evuhbody gotta eat. I don’t know you but i don’t think you want to open one cuz. if you did in two twos i’d see a big ride park outside you house. As for ZRs…i doubt you wud have your children riding pun one if you did own dem. De Indian man aint need de ZR he got cars and vans…
    Small stores and ZR’s aside, if you do the research you see that Indians play a much greater role in bim. Check who own de furniture store, jewellery stores, internet and computer places and de restaurants and others properties. How many black bajans have benefited from these businesses? Look at how many bajans employed because of mrs. Ram and others. It is a fact that they are great asset to bajan society. Have you ever been to the doctor in Barbados? Have you every been to a tertiary institution in Barbados? Have you ever needed legal counsel? Sadly you like many bemused bajans only associate SY Adams and Swan Street to the contribution of Indians to bim.
    An asset to society…..i don’t see de Indo-Bajans decaying our society as much as we black bajans do. I don’t see dem robbing and killing, raping and attack tourists, shooting one another for a piece of de drug turf. I don’t see them waiting at the bus-stops outside our secondary schools at 2:30 waiting for a young ting to trouble. I don’t see them in de vans stands and de streets of Bridgetown wid ten cases o’ guiness, nuff hard weed and troubling ever young girl (sexy or not) dat pass. I don’t see dem at sports aand other social events cussing and carrying on, fighting and endangering the lives of others. Open your eyes and your minds.
    You said that Indian immigrants never go into researching and new fields……which planet you live pun? You need to research the contributions of Indian immigrants to countries such as the US, Britain, Canada etc. Who are the doctors, IT specialists, medical researchers etc. Anyone who has studied abroad will tell know that there are many Indian lectures, professors, deans, researchers etc at these institutions. All you have to do is read a medical, scientific or technical journal or publication and most likely de author is Singh, Krishnani, Thani, Patel and whatever names Indians have. I seriously doubt you’ll find the author’s name is Oneche, Ngombi, Mboma and so on. Most of the students who are going to university and coming out at the top of the class are….you guessed it Indian Immigrants. On the flip side, who aint want no education an jus wanna party and fete all de time. Who will generally cause havoc and chaos in these countries. Who duz be killing innocent people in de street, inciting open gang wars in the streets, drug trafficking. Who duz be trying to breed as many women as possible and leff de child without a father figure. Instead of hating on de Indians who are actually doing what you expect an immigrant to do, we should be learning from their approach to life. Just now all Caribbean nationals gine need a visa to travel to England not just de Jamaicans. Stop and think for a minute.

  • Bajan-2-D-Bone // February 3, 2008 at 11:33 AM

    apology accepted passing down south is what i meant to say.

  • Anonymous // February 3, 2008 at 12:02 PM

    Bajan to de bone – you call yourself eh -hmmm

    I reserve my comments and my strength to arguments that have logic and persons who are capable of thinking beyond what they have been spoon fed.

    I suspect you are mighty pleased of this tacit support by a self confessed indian Passing Down South that you think you must spout that rubbish that you just did.

    I will just make this comment in response to your argument that bajans should have been grateful to the coolie men who went around selling cheap items and trinkets to the bajans who couldnot pay for it at Cave Shepherd – er, – do you think the slaves should have similarly felt grateful to the slaves traders who came offering them trinket in exchange for their brothers and sisters?

    Tell me bajan to de bone,what were these wonderful things the coolie man was offering? – a cheap pair of pants,a plastic bucket?

    Did these items lift the black man out of poverty,or did it kept him/her indebted to the indian man who sold a $10.00 item for $80.00 as the black man paid a little of the pittance he earned for an item which was destroyed even before he was finished paying for it?

    It’s young,naieve persons like you who make me worried for this country.

    You can’t think past what you have been told by other races,that is – that black people are the worst kind of people,they only make children,they only fight and go to jail,they don’t invest,they only like to party and run women and on and on.

    Perhaps you should take a trip to India or Bangladesh and see your argument debunked,because wherever there is a majority population whether it’s indians,white,hispanics all the ills of society e.g. criminal activities,prostitution,broken families manifest themselves in that society.

    So you will see for example more hispanics,more indians displaying the very behaviour you decry about in the blacks.

    Oh by the way was Barbados stagnating commercially until the coolie man trader come along?

    Haven’t you heard about Rollock and Tudor and others.

    Look son I think you better go and learn some more about your people and stop buying into what other races write about us.

    Yes I will like to see persons of african descent move away from a consumer lifestyle and start thinking about more investment.

    But never forget when they do gather up their pennies and start a small business it’s probably people like yourself who boycott their business and go and support the said indian and white business.

    I guess it will take generations to get over this self hating legacy of slavery that they left with black people, but I guess for people like myself,we can’t give up and must plod on- one step at a time.

  • passing through south // February 3, 2008 at 12:44 PM

    Mr anonymous ppl like u just amuse me.I have stated i am indian and because someone has an opinion opposite to that of urs they r the followers of other races.Maybe u shud ask the folks in the country who provided them with school clothes and books and stuff when no one else would not even look at them.Maybe you should ask who provided them with building material and stuff and also give them the price they r to pay for it instead of putting interest on it like the banks and other places.You should ask who is more understanding when payments cannot b made.Maybe u shud ask folks who took them to places like cave shepherd and courts etc when every one refuse them credit or no one were offering credit plans and then ask what was the final price the coolieman charged you on that also.You would b surprise to know that the mark up was of no great value compare to what black businesses charged them.

  • Bajan-2-D-Bone // February 3, 2008 at 12:51 PM

    strong sentiments Anonymous, and i fully understand your feelings towards the oppression of the black man. i observe, research and then fomulate opinions so dont insult my intelligence because i dont share your racial views. the truth still remains that barbados is a black country and the main hindrance to our progression is ourselves if we keep using excuses like the ones you use. why do we keep focusing on slavery. yes we must never forget it and prevent anything remotely close to it ever happening again but it is time….long time in fact dat we stop using dis excuse. use de experiences and build for the future.
    facts are facts and you cant deny the contribution of indo-bajans to our country. i dont need to go to india or bangladesh. i thought we are discussing immigrants i.e people who move from there home to another duh! visit london, toronto, usa and europe. in general do they (indians) do what most of our black immigrants do? i’m not saying many of us don’t progress as we should but i must speak as a generalization. why are we always at the bottom of the scale. the amount of folly i hear and see in london by the black immigrants gets to me. gang wars, afro-carribean african tension, nigerians at war with ghanaians, ethiopians at war wid somalis and bare junk. meanwhile who is buying up most of britain and looking to invest, diversify and prove for the future. i find it hard at times to understand how indians and blacks have been in the uk for such along time and still we are so far behind. many indians are well off and many blacks are poor. you really should research for urself and see who is causing head aches for the law enforcement agencies. who is killing themselves you is making bad for the next generation of caribbean immigrants. then u might start to talk about bombings and islam and whatever…news flash…most indians are hindu. dont deny facts. i black, bajan and proud of that but i’ll never let racial bias and prejudice cloud my judgement and opinions. instead of being bias and racists we should do learn from others. wake and smell de coffee or milo whatever you drink. stop making excuses!!!

  • Bajan-2-D-Bone // February 3, 2008 at 1:11 PM

    It seems Anonymous wants me to change my name from Bajan-2-D-Bone to Black-2-D-Bone based on what he is saying.

  • Anonymous // February 3, 2008 at 1:20 PM

    Bajan to de bone.

    Sadly you confirm what I already suspected,that you get lost in the arena of logic.

    Sorry to have troubled your small mind.

  • Bajan-2-D-Bone // February 3, 2008 at 1:38 PM

    Anonymous,

    i shall respect your age and the fact that you are approaching senile. no further comment. one love!!!

  • Berth // February 3, 2008 at 3:03 PM

    You are right with what you said. But do not forget the high GOD in HEAVEN looks after HIS own we are all HIS. red, black or white no matter the country, rich, or poor. HE (GOD) looks after every one. thats our faith.

  • Anonymous // February 3, 2008 at 3:16 PM

    BARBADOS IS A WOUNDERFUL ISLAND AS FAR AS I HEARD. ONE DAY THE TIME WOULD COME WHEN FIRST SHALL BE LAST AND LAST SHALL BE FIRST. WHAT I MEAN IS: ONE DAY THE WOULD BECOME RICH AND THE RICH SHALL BECOME POOR. bth

  • Bimbro // February 3, 2008 at 3:24 PM

    That was an important and informative contribution, ‘Bajan-2-the-bone’!! So, what’s left for the Barbadians to do???? Surrender their country, lock-stock-and-barrell to the Indians?!!!!

    Where then, shall we own?? Or don’t we need to own, anywhere!!!!

    How much do we concede to the Indians and how much do we retain!!!!

    *************************

    Oh by the way was Barbados stagnating commercially until the coolie man trader come along?

    ******************************

    Excellent point, Anonymous!!! We’ve managed without them before, and can do so, again!!!!

    *****************************************

    but I guess for people like myself,we can’t give up and must plod on- one step at a time.

    ***********************************

    Another, excellent point, ‘A’!! The question is, in your point of view, how do we persuade our own people to adopt a more, serious, ambitious and responsible attitude towards life?!!!!

    **************************

    i find it hard at times to understand how indians and blacks have been in the uk for such along time and still we are so far behind. many indians are well off and many blacks are poor. you really should research for urself and see who is causing head aches for the law enforcement agencies. who is killing themselves you is making bad for the next generation of caribbean immigrants.

    **********************************

    Bajan – 2- the bone, I live in the UK and completely agree with your above statement. However, it’s no mystery to ME who have destroyed the prospects of west indians in the UK with their nightmarish, criminal, behaviour and that is most certainly, Jamaicans!! However, many Bajees r too, much in love with the JAs, for god-knows what reason, to accept this, so I won’t dwell on the point, at this time!!!!

    Now, now, gentlemen, you’ve both made very, important and valid points!! A way to progress this discussion might be to answer some of the questions which I’ve asked above!!

  • Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 3:33 PM

    Dear Bajan-2-d-bone,

    I agree with your sentiments.

    Dear David,

    I am sorry if my point wasn’t clear. Bajan-2-d-bone has been better at articulting some of my sentiments, but the cost of living point is important. Let me explain it again in a different way. According to Bajans in polls and reflected in this blog during election time, the most pressing problem was the high cost of living. It is important therefore that those who call for a reduction in immigration levels….. ( which is what the coded message for checks and balances means, because if you want more checks but expect no impact of doing so, then this would just be a waste of tax payers money)….it is important that those calling for a reduction in immigration, understand that this will lead to a rise in our cost of living. Immigration comes will many issues that we have discussed and some we have not, but let us be clear, immigrants lower costs, less immigrants, higher cost of living. The question stands. Are you prepared to accept a higher cost of living for the benefits you see of lower immigration.

    I am sorry if this is not dowen to earth but we need to be honest with people and not just say we want everything, but understand the tricky trade-offs.

  • Yardbroom // February 3, 2008 at 3:36 PM

    The increased numbers of Indians in Barbados, particularly indo/Guyanese has generated a great deal of debate and naturally positions have become polarised.

    In order to be objective and fair, one has to ask is there a problem, and if there is, how can it be addressed and what can both sides bring to the table of discussion to solve the perceived problems.

    That large numbers of black Barbadians are expressing concerns, means there is a problem, one can easily say their fears are unjustified but they are fears, just the same.

    Indians have lived in Barbados for many years, and because of their “small numbers” have intergrated well into Barbadian society, and it would be disingenuous not to concede, that they have made a “positive contribution” to Barbadian society.

    The new influx particularly of indo/Guyanese is of a different order, its difference is due mainly to numbers, when the numbers of a new immigrant population become so large that they have an impact, it is only natural that the indigenous population become alarmed – they do have a way of life that they also wish to preserve, not only Indians – particularly if there is a perception, that some factors in the immigrant’s behaviour are causing concerns.

    What some indigenous people find galling, is that in response to criticisms, however ill conceived, instead of concentrating on the words or persons who level the criticisms, there is a blanket attack on black people and their life styles eg acquistion of consumer goods etc the same consumerism at which they – the Indians – peddle their trinkets.

    It is wise and common sense, to understand not to attack a people who have taken you into their house, that is ingratitude, a rebuttal to criticism is understandable and correct, but to criticise a people whom you are dependent on for a living, is folly of the worst kind.

  • Ask Peter Wickham?? // February 3, 2008 at 4:28 PM

    BU can you ask Wickham to explain his questionnaires in his polls done in Barbados before election?

    We want to see how he phrased questions about concerns which Barbadians have about immigration, or did he?

    I think Barbadians have been duped about the seriousness of the immigrant problem. It is the reason I feel political polls should be banned 6 months before an election.

  • Anonymous // February 3, 2008 at 5:15 PM

    Very Insightful ‘ask peter wickham’.

    I too have wondered the same and we know where his bias lies.

    He has been quite open about it almost sometimes to the point of being abusive to callers.

  • Straight talk // February 3, 2008 at 6:07 PM

    Yeah, let’s ban opinion polls, and while we’re at it posters, adverts and party political broadcasts.

    They all make me think about who I should vote for, and that has to be pernicious.

    Just leave me alone to make my own mind up, after reading The Nation.

  • Warrior // February 3, 2008 at 6:10 PM

    I always wonder why, when one has to point out the difficulties and ills of a society, family, or person, immediately the one pointing out the ill is immediately labeled, with some good one like homophobic, xenophobic, and racist, and fascist.

    Over and over again people who are on the outside looking in are saying that Barbados’ un-governed immigration policy that was endorsed and supported by Mr. Arthur and his boys, is going to bite us where the good lord split us.

    We have a right to speak to the social ills and societal degeneration as we see it as Barbadian citizens. If people like Mr. Truss and his ilk had spoken sooner, a lot of mess could have been averted in this country. We said nothing when the Guyanese were coming in like termites in fresh new wood , because we were getting our homes built cheaply, getting our homes cleaned cheaply, getting our homes rented and generally have been able to exploit some of these people.

    We have degraded our way of life as we know it when we can rent out our entire homes, whilst we are still living there in “rooms”, when we can convert our filthy garages into “rooms” by putting up some plywood, when we can convert our now defunct livestock pens into “rooms”, we degrade ourselves and the people we offer them to. But these people don’t forget and they always have a plan as to how they will treat with you according to how you have treated them.

    As a Barbadian I will speak to the social and societal issues, give me what ever phobia you want to but I am going to speak.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 6:15 PM

    Dear Yardbroom,

    I liked the first half of your comment, but didnt understand the last bit. Who are the Guyanese Indians who are critising the indigenous population for our life style? I haven’t seen this on this blog – all I have seen is some embarrassingly ignorant and racist crap about “Indians”.

    What I find really ironic about the comments on this blog in general (not yours) is that the racists spout all this ignorant stuff about “Indians” taking over and owning the country when after 40 years of Independence we still have one group of people in Barbados, however you define them they are not black or brown, who own most of the land, capital and companies. Look at the Barbados share registers of BS&T, Goddards, Sagicor and you will not find alot of Indo-Guyanese names. Do Indo-Guyanese own Cable & Wireless? Digicell? Williams Industries? Rotherley Construction? Sandy Lane? First Caribbean/RBC? Courts?….

    Any analysis of the distribution of power and ownership in Barbados will tell you that this fixation with Indo-Guyanese is a gross distraction from our real problems. Bajan-2-D-Bone has also emphasised that if you examine our pressing social issues, bashment, boys-on-the-block, the underperformanc of boys at school etc, that the focus on the Indo-Guyanese is a gross distraction.

    So I totally agree with you Yardbroom, that to find a solution we need to be better at defining what the problem is and how it interconnects with other issues……

  • Warrior // February 3, 2008 at 6:40 PM

    Nat // January 30, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    I NEVER meant to say Canada is perfect. Lord knows it is FAR from pefect. However it is probably the best model we have for diversity and pluralism in the world right now. And if many Canadians held the same viewpoints on immigration as I have seen here, I would be in trouble, many black people would be, many Asians would be etc etc.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    You have got to come here and stay for two weeks or so and hang out in the Bush Hall, Bank Hall, Foster Hall, Belle, City and country areas and you will see why Barbadians are concerned about the immigration problem we are now facing.

    Guyenese bwese Barbadians stink everytime they get the chance, I mean with filthy words, that exposes as deeper problem than we are really willing to confront or deal with.

    He who wears the shoe knows the pinch.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 6:57 PM

    Dear Warrior and Nat,

    I live here. I mix with a few Guyanese Indians, from my kids’ school, from helping around my home, from the builders next door, the doctors and dentists and the people selling in the roti shop and I dont hear what you do.

    Maybe if there was an annonymous blog for Guyanese Indians, some would spout the same racist crap as we are hearing from some of our own people. Which would be a pity and cause for us to work doubly harder for harmony. The solution is not a version of Ian Smith’s Unilateral Declaration of Independence from the rest of the world.

    And the best way to achieve harmony is to show respect for each other and for us all to set an example of showing respect for others in our everday day lives and blogs. This would not be a bad place to start.

  • Warrior // February 3, 2008 at 7:04 PM

    All this relaxed immigration came from Barney Lynch wanting to quote big tourism numbers.

  • Warrior // February 3, 2008 at 7:18 PM

    passing through south //
    February 3, 2008 at 9:57 am

    when the blacks were busy buying expensive cars and feeding all the women their money and blinging all the jewellery the indians were buying zr’s and so whose fault is that hey.some people just want to enjoy the fruits of life then complain when others move ahead. 2 de bone if i took ur comment out of context my apologizes.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    PTS you know you make a point there, but our own people work against us. They would never tell another black person when a house is selling from the bank cheap but they would call someone from another race to give them the inside scoop, ZR and Hired Car licenses and other little perks are given to other people of other races instead of black Barbadians.

    Don’t get me wrong I will never go down the line of “poor black boy”. That is why Mr. ARthur and his boys should be scourged and drugged over the coals because on their watch they allowed greed and corruption to pervade a Government that we gave them to run on our behalf and now most bajans don’t have a pot to piss in.

    In addition I take a issue with the quote above from PTS, not only black Barbadians squander money in the hairy bank and depreciating assets, Indians are men too- a man is a man is a man – and if you take a close look you might get the surprise of you life.

    Finally I hope that no get so foolish as to start calling black Barbadians – Afro Barbadian, I think that would take the cake for me.

  • Warrior // February 3, 2008 at 7:23 PM

    Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 6:57 pm

    Dear Warrior and Nat,

    I live here. I mix with a few Guyanese Indians, from my kids’ school, from helping around my home, from the builders next door, the doctors and dentists and the people selling in the roti shop and I dont hear what you do.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Then you need to quiet your soul and listen, ESPECIALLY if you have builders next door.

  • Warrior // February 3, 2008 at 7:27 PM

    Whilst we are talking immigration policy and so on here on this thread, could someone give an honest update on all the asians who are here illegally or under false pretenses.

  • Bush tea // February 3, 2008 at 7:28 PM

    Thomas Grisham

    I am still waiting for your report of how you personally live this open door philosophy that you so eloquently support….

    You see great benefits in Barbados opening its arms to immigrants – is your home open to strangers? or even neighbors? Have you taken in any of these great Guyanese Indians? or even adopted an orphan bajan child?

    …or is this just an academic exercise for you?

    Don’t you think that the benefits that you espouse for Barbados would also accrue to your family should you bring such new and diverse ‘blood’ into your children’s home?

    I am sure that you would not be put off by the occasional choke and rob situation that may occur in and around your home….

    …I judge people by their fruit – any joker can talk…

  • Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 7:29 PM

    Dear Warrior,

    At the end of the day we have to believe in government figures, because if we cannot, we cannot come up with good policy. We will be shooting in the dark, and responding to problems which aren’t there and ignoring those problems which are.

    But it is clear to me that people are very skeptical about government figures. How do we reintroduce credibility in government figures?

    David, this could be an interesting new thread What do you think? Should we have a National Statistics Office that is independent of government?

    Personally, I think the tourism numbers are consistent-ish with the balance of payment figures (these are harder to fiddle because if the cash receipts aren’t there, there is a drain on official reserves).

    Tourism is a net service export in the balance of payments figures. These have indeed grown around the 10% per year mark – though perhaps they could have grown more.

    Immigrants tend to remit cash abroad and so this ends up as a net capital export, and if the tourists were really immigrants we would see the net service export figures falling and the net capital transfer figures rising, and if these trends were big enough we would also see the balance of payments worsening and official reserves falling…….That has not been the case since 2005.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 7:36 PM

    Dear Bush Tea,

    Please re-read my comments. I dont call for an open door policy. I question that we have one. What we may have is lax action on overstayers. I do not support that.

    I argue that we need to consider our capacity, which I estimate to be around 1.5% of the labour force, and manage immigration around that capacity. And I point out that f we were to do so, it probably would not be very different from what we have.

    I also highlight that in our economic position more immigrants has allowed growth to be higher and cost-of-living lower than otherwise and if you want less immigrants, which you do, you must also accept lower overall growth and higher cost of living.

    As for my own home, well dear Bush Tea, if you were my neighbour, you would be very welcome to share my hospitality anytime.

  • Warrior // February 3, 2008 at 7:38 PM

    Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    Dear Warrior,

    At the end of the day we have to believe in government figures, because if we cannot, we cannot come up with good policy. We will be shooting in the dark, and responding to problems which aren’t there and ignoring those problems which are.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    How can we believe in Government figures , when we were lied to consistently for the term s of BLP rule with CWC expectancy firgures with illegal immigration figures, with figures of the cost of capital projects.

    How can we trust gov. figures.

    the DLP has inherited a hard task.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 7:46 PM

    But Warrior, what do you think about my suggestion to restore credibility to these numbers? Do you have any other suggestions of how to restore credibility.

  • Bush tea // February 3, 2008 at 7:50 PM

    passing through south //
    February 3, 2008 at 9:57 am

    when the blacks were busy buying expensive cars and feeding all the women their money and blinging all the jewellery the indians were buying zr’s and so whose fault is that hey.some people just want to enjoy the fruits of life then complain when others move ahead. 2 de bone if i took ur comment out of context my apologizes.
    *************************************
    PTS – you should keep passing right on…

    Have you ever stopped to wonder why, with the kinds of character you describe for Bajan men, Barbados is easily the BEST small country in this World?

    Have you thought why all these ‘hard-working’ thrifty foreigners with great work ethics all come from failed countries, from which everyone is running?

    It is these same ‘lazy blacks’ who have created the environment where anyone can come here and feel welcome, at home and where jokers who could not even eat in their own country can come and become rich.

    Whites, Indians, Trinis you name them – all come here and do well for themselves. What they all fail to recognize is that there is much more to good life and success than hard work and making money.

    …have you considered that Bajans may have a great secret that is hidden in our liming, drinking and calling at women… ask our prophet.
    He is none other that Richard “Lowdown” Hoad.

  • Bush tea // February 3, 2008 at 9:34 PM

    Thomas Gresham

    Sir, while I appreciate the invitation to be your guest, I am absolutely sure that you KNOW that this is NOT what i am talking about.
    You know full well that the article and the concerns of Bajans refers to the attitude promoted by people like you and Owen Arthur that immigration is a ‘good thing’ and that we are paranoid to be concerned about it.

    This prevailing nonsense leads to the situation where already loose controls are ignored and we now see the resulting mess.
    Your ‘mouthing’ about tighter controls is just that…

    Immigration in a small country like Barbados is nearly identical to inviting strangers to live in your home…. with your family.

    Anyone would be happy to have Bush tea as their guest. Presidents, Prime Ministers etc have done so (as recently as this year in Europe) so inviting me to your home is no great feat. I am talking about inviting street characters and people of completely different cultures to move into your home….
    ..that is what you are encouraging Bajans to do.

    Even when controlled, this is a tricky business -far less when we are talking about refugees from failed countries.
    Even when your daughter seeks to marry a stranger and bring him into your family you will be apprehensive and worried – why do you think that Bajans should be different…

    Immigration is a matter that should be given the highest possible thought before new persons are allowed to join a small family like Barbados. In some cases, there will be great mutual benefits as in a good marriage, but the dangers are real, dark and inevitable if great care is not taken.

  • Brutus // February 3, 2008 at 10:55 PM

    Thomas Gresham you said: “So, if you want less immigration you will get higher living costs and lower growth – IF NOTHING ELSE WERE TO CHANGE (emphasis added). US economists would call that “Economics 101” as it is an irrefutable observation in theory and fact.”

    I am not an economist but my brief research on the subject suggests that there is not a consensus among economists on the link between population growth and economic growth.

    So, I have a few questions:
    - by economic growth do you mean real GDP, or real GDP per capita? Which is more important?
    - what is the impact of technology and labour productivity on the link between population growth and economic growth?
    - how do we factor in the increased toll on our country’s environment?
    - what of the impact on property prices (including rents) and water supply? Will we be able to be provide quality education and healthcare to all?
    - what of the impact on our balance of payments? (if economic growth is not in foreign exchange generating sectors then will there not be greater pressure on the balance of payments?)
    - what is the expected impact of increased population on wages for locals? Will an increase in inflation (given a lower rate of population increase) necessarily result in a decrease in real wages?

    I’ll stop there for now.

  • David // February 3, 2008 at 11:02 PM

    Can we also add Brutus that the new DLP government is on record of implementing a slow down in capital works projects as a deliberate strategy to slow down government spend. We expect this will have a significant impact on the supply of labour to the construction sector which will lead to labour capacity being created.

    What happens with all the illegals currently said to be working in the construction sector?

  • Thomas Gresham // February 4, 2008 at 5:17 AM

    Dear Brutus,

    Thank you for your question. The issue is not population growth but economic immigration (the kind we have in Barbados as opposed to refugees for example). The link between population growth and economic growth is indeed complex. But less so for economic migrants. Immigrants work harder for less than locals, partly because they are still better off than at home, because there is no welfare for them and if they hang around doing nothing they will certainly be sent back.

    By working harder for less they reduce costs in an economy and improve its capacity for work. Although my fellow economists disagree on many things, there is not much disagreement about that. Economic migrants have played an important role in the economic growth (per capita) of the US, Canada, Australia, UK and elsewhere. Now, economics is called the “dismal science” because for every benefit there is often some trade-off and cost. Economic migrants bring net benefits, but there are costs. There are social-cultural costs that have been discussed on these pages, though I am with Bajan-2-D-bone on an assessment of these. One way of addressing these is to consider what our capacity limit is, and I reckon somewhere around 1-2% of the labour force per year would be a reasonable limit. There are socio-economic costs for certain groups, principally, for low skilled, low productivity Bajans who get priced out of the market.

    The economists solution to this, is not to lower growth and raise costs to protect this group, not to slow the whole economy to protect its least efficient part, but to use the benefits of the economic growth and lower costs to spend real resources to re-train and support this group with income transfers while keeping the immigration. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to discuss this. This is the route taken by many other countries such as the US, Canada, Australia, UK etc.

  • Yardbroom // February 4, 2008 at 5:32 AM

    Dear Thomas Gresham,
    You asked me “who are the Guyanese Indians who are critising the indigenuous population life style on this blog?”… in reference to my post.

    passing through south// Feb 3, 2008 at 9.57am
    “when the blacks were busy buying expensive cars and feeding all the women their money and blinging all the jewellery the indians were buying zr’s and so whose fault is that hey. Some people just want to enjoy the fruits of life then complain when others move ahead”…

    This is a blanket denigration of black Barbadians, on whose backs the Indians hope to make their fortune. Well the blacks are complaining now.

    passing through south// Feb 2, 2008 at 9.10am
    …” I am not shame to say I am of Indian heritage”…

    It is true he/she did go on to say he/she was born in Barbados, but it is clear from the post with whom he aligns himself.

    I too was born in Barbados, and can trace my family here since 1783, however my allegiance is to Barbados and Barbadians. I would not use a blanket method to criticise fellow Barbadians, black, white or Indian. If I have to criticise, I would say “some,” because that is obviously common sense.

    In my comment, I was clear in making a distinction, between Indians who have lived in Barbados for some time, and made a positive contribution to Barbadian society and the new indo/Guyanese immigrants who are causing concern.

    Passing through in his/her remarks made specific reference to …”when the blacks”…. that was a blanket denigration and was unnecessary.

    The blacks of whom he/she think so little of, must be doing something right, or Barbados would not have the reasonable safe and peaceful society it has, to which the self same and their families – who know how to do things so well – have to leave their own countries of which they are very proud of, to come and live in Barbados, black Barbadians do have some pride and intelligence and understand when others are discourteous and disengenuous.

    Thomas Gresham, this is in no way a criticism of your post – and is not meant to be – it is an exposition of my opinion on the discussion.

  • David // February 4, 2008 at 6:55 AM

    Thomas Gresham~ didn’t Clyde Mascoll make your economic argument and it was shot to bits by Professor Michael Howard?

    A commenter mentioned Economics 101. Isn’t accepted that the best Economic Programs are those which use the best theoretical concepts meshed with the social requirements of the environment which is being managed.

    In other words Mr. Gresham the wants of the people must be factored. It is call looking after the well-being of the society. What do we live for then?

  • The People's Democratic Congress // February 4, 2008 at 8:23 AM

    It is normally NOT our party’s intention or policy when making contributions to this blog on any subject or issue before hand to refer to or connect with names or pseudonyms over contributions made, mainly because of the sometimes degeneration or minimization or peripheralization of argumentative analysis that may likely ensue or that may likely take place after a contribution that refers or connects with these names or psuedonyms is made, and such a situation being that this possibility is so much more likely than the opposite.

    Anyhow, in making this type of contribution now PDC risks this even more, given the very divisive, emotive but realistic nature of subject/issue at hand: Can Indians and Blacks co-exist in Barbados?

    But, before we proceed any further, we wish to thank esp. David, Anonymous, Analyst, Thistle, and Bush Tea, among a few others, for bringing forward great clarity and consistency in the arguments that they have presented so far in their contributions, and for bringing forward equally great logic, rationality and preciseness as are properly founded in their contributions in this instalment. Certainly, you have done well and you have made PDC – a people’s progressive nationalist party of Barbados – feel proud. Thanks to you.

    However, this essence of this contribution is directed to a Thomas Gresham, who continues to regale us, or greater said, misinform us – contributors to this blog – with his own brand of automated, mechanized, and, some times, very predetermined responses to some very serious, inveterate, human, societal problems that Barbadians face on a daily basis in this country, and which are responses that could MAINLY be seen as being so reminiscent of how so many so-called economists in Barbados, including former prime minister Mr. Owen Arthur, react to or deal with many of these same problems. Thus, PDC has a serious very bone to pick with you – Thomas Gresham!!

    How dare you suggest that in order for us – Barbadians – to have lower costs of living, greater competition, and greater so-called economic growth in Barbados that they must expose themselves to increased immigration? Or that, if we have decided to accept less immigration, we must do so with higher living costs and lower so-called economic growth, all other things remaining equal? PDC has never read a worst and most barbarous kind of ignorance posing and pretending to be rational in its tenor on this blog!!

    The fact of the MATTER, is this, that the vast majority of the masses and middle classes of people of Barbados, while having no fundamental problems with the Indians who would have voluntarily immigrated here years ago with their own things Indian and who would have gone as far as having/had their own progenies born and raised in Barbados, DO HAVE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS WITH, AND THEREFORE DO NOW WISH FOR, TOO MANY, AS SURELY THERE ARE, NON-NATIONALS FROM GUYANA COMING HERE TO LIVE. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT!! ( IN PDC CASE WE SAY INDIAN GUYANESE, BECAUSE OF THEIR RACIST NATURE AND BECAUSE OF ALL THE VARIOUS PROBLEMS THAT HAVE SINCE COME ABOUT, AND MOST DIRECTLY, FROM THE TIME THEY WERE BROUGHT INTO THESE PARTS BY THE BRITISH UNDER A DIVIDE AND RULE SYSTEM)

    And, to argue that because increased immigration has brought so many benefits, as well as costs, to so many other countries, does NOT mean that Barbados, a small land scarce country, mineral resources scarce country and one that has a crisis prone so-called economic system, must have an open-door policy to immigrants whether or not they will overstay their time. To argue such is to undoubtedly argue in a way so as to SERIOUSLY offend the patriotism and nationalism of the President and Executive and Members of the People’s Democratic Congress, and thousands of other Barbadians!!

    Certainly, whereas PDC regards that nationals of all countries should always be allowed to travel to and visit other countries, we know also that it certainly bodes ill for nationals and immigrants in the same countries, when it is seen that the presumption must that of to make a country more developed, increased immigration must be a sine qua non centrepiece of any of these countries national strategic plans. What we in PDC do know, however, is that there are so many ways to reduce the cost of living in Barbados, to increase competition and to promote material production, wealth and prosperity for people in Barbados, and on a reasonable and sustained basis, without having an open door immigration policy, even if properly regulated increases in immigration are to come about thereafter to supplement higher growth and develepment of Barbados.

    For a future PDC Government, some of these ways are: the Abolition of Taxation; the Abolition of Interest Rates, the Abolition of Motor Vehicle Insurance; the Abolition of ALL Exchange Rates Parities with the Barbados Dollar; Making Imports of Goods and Services Zero-”priced” at ALL points of entry; Making Exports of Goods and Services paid for in local currency/”prices”, and, yes, properly modernizing and rigorously enforcing our Immigration laws and policies. See our Pre-election Manifesto@www.somassfreedem.org

    PDC

  • The People's Democratic Congress // February 4, 2008 at 8:34 AM

    Correct, in line 8, paragraph 1- pseudonyms; in line 1, paragraph 4 – the essence; and in line 7, paragraph 6 – NOT.

  • notesfromthemargin // February 4, 2008 at 11:29 AM

    Thomas….

    It is unfortunate that the positive contribution made by immigrants to the Barbados population is not highlighted more often. And often many people mix up legal an illegal immigrants and consider them to be one and the same.

    Some people may consider the layman’s response to be xenophobic, however I see it as rooted in the failure of policy makers to seriously explain the issue. Barbados has benefitted tremendously from immigrants in the past and continues to do so. For example; much of the middle class that fled Guyana in the 1980’s ended up in Barbados and those persons continue to make contributions in building our economy.

    It is interesting that many of the arguments used on both sides of the debate in Barbados, are mirrored in the similar debate that is happening in the USA.

    Marginal

  • frankology // February 4, 2008 at 12:16 PM

    For a future PDC Government, some of these ways are: the Abolition of Taxation; the Abolition of Interest Rates, the Abolition of Motor Vehicle Insurance; the Abolition of ALL Exchange Rates Parities with the Barbados Dollar; Making Imports of Goods and Services Zero-”priced” at ALL points of entry; Making Exports of Goods and Services paid for in local currency/”prices”, and, yes, properly modernizing and rigorously enforcing our Immigration laws and policies.
    …………………………………………………………………
    IF and I reiterate the word “IF”. How in heaven will we be able to manage an economy that will be plagued by all giveaways and no collections. It will reminisce a business owner buying stock for $20,000.00 and earning only $4,000.00 due to giveaways. This will be a clear passage for a bankrupt country.

  • Analyst // February 4, 2008 at 3:03 PM

    This article is in the Guyana Stabroek News of February 4, 2008. Very interesting what they are doing there in Suriname regarding the official logging of illegal immigrants…

    Analyst
    __________________________

    STABROEK NEWS

    SURINAME LOGS ILLEGALS

    In the last seven weeks, Suriname has logged 15,000 foreigners living in the country illegally, including many Guyanese.

    According to a Caribbean Net News report, in the Nickerie district, authorities registered over 2,000 illegal individuals, mostly Guyanese nationals.

    The report said that several individuals indicated that loss of personal documents such as passports and red tape prevented the renewal of permits. In one case, a 65-year-old Guyanese-born man indicated that he had been living in Suriname for 51 years, of which 38 has been illegally.

    “I came to Suriname when I was fourteen and at that time my mother was taking care of all arrangement for my legal stay. Since she died when I was 27 and the house I was living in burnt down, destroying all my documents, I never report to the authorities here again,” said the man, waiting for his turn to fill in the documents.

    According to an anonymous official “We won’t expel people based on the information we have collected. We now have to find ways to address these issues and implement actions to ensure that they receive legitimate residence in the country
    ______________________________

  • Thomas Gresham // February 4, 2008 at 4:55 PM

    Dear David,

    No you must be mistaken. The idea that economic migrants bring net benefit to costs and growth and general economic welfare has not been shot down, but is the perceived wisdom of the majority of the economics profession.

    Yes, we must take into account the views and culture of populations and not just their economic welfare. But there is nothing more damaging to the well being of the poor than slow growth that brings unemployment and rising prices that erode their purchasing power.

    You may decide that you want to reduce immigration for social reasons, but be clear that there are negative economic consequences.

    Here is a short extract from a recent book by Philippe Legrian on Immigrants that was shortlisted for the FT Business Book of the Year Award.

    Historical evidence certainly suggests [immigration] would do a lot of good: the United States’ stunning economic growth between 1870 and 1920 coincided with the migration of tens of millions of Europeans to America. A study of fifteen European countries finds that a 1 per cent increase in the population through migration is associated with a boost to the economy of between 1.25 per cent and 1.5 per cent. The World Bank reckons that if rich countries allowed their workforce to swell by a mere 3 per cent by letting in an extra 14 million workers from developing countries between 2001 and 2025, the world would be $356 billion a year better off, with the new migrants themselves gaining $162 billion a year, people who remain in poor countries $143 billion, and natives in rich countries $139 billion. And those figures grossly underestimate the likely economic gains from the added diversity and dynamism that immigrants bring. Foreigners don’t just slot in to vacancies left by local people; they bring different skills, varied views, diverse experiences and a zeal for self-improvement that combine with the talents of local people to boost innovation, productivity and economic growth. Would the US be as dynamic and successful without all its immigrants trying to get ahead?”

    The other historical evidence is the economic costs of barring immigrants, as many European countries and Japan have found.

    No amount of wishful thinking will change the economics of the issue.

  • David // February 4, 2008 at 6:37 PM

    Thomas Gresham we read your response again and was alarm by your unwillingness to understand another view. Although we accept the argument that there is some symbiotic relationship between immigration and real GDP growth what you seem to be deliberate missing is that it must be planned/managed. All the countries you mentioned, especially Canada have all tried to match the incoming skills of the immigrants with the strategic needs of the country.

    In Barbados what we have is an open door policy which has now resulted in a huge number of illegal immigrants stressing our infrastructure i.e. Police, Health, Schools etc.

  • The People's Democratic Congress // February 5, 2008 at 1:29 AM

    Dear Frankology,

    Please see our last contribution re BU’s instalment on former Minister Lynette Eastmond Hits the Ground Running, for a little more insight and understanding of this philosophy.

    Yours truly,
    PDC

  • Thomas Gresham // February 5, 2008 at 4:26 AM

    Dear David,

    It is you that is deliberately missing the point in order to pursue your agenda an agenda I have shown to be unfounded in economic evidence. Your agenda is transparent given the threads that you have initiated and your shifting the goal posts whenever your argument fails an economic test. Let me explain.

    You claim that all you are are asking for is greater “management” or “checks and balances”. The logical implication is that you want greater management and checks and balances to lead to less immigration. Because you are not calling for more immigration, because you keep on stressing that the current levels are causing stresses. And it would be a waste of tax-payers money to have more management but not impact immigration levels.

    The economics points out that lower immigration means higher costs of living and lower growth, so your next refuge is that you would manage immigration to change its mix, away from unskilled to the skilled. The economic evidence is that it is the unskilled immigrants that allows costs to fall, economic growth to accelerate and provides the room and revenues to “upskill” our workers.

    The rational response to genuine issues of cultural and infrastructure limits to immigration is as follows:

    1. Toughen up policies towards overstayers. The most effective way to do this is to get tough on Bajan employers of overstayers. Give them large fines and exclude them from government employment or contracts. (You can always tell undercover racists when their principal ideas are to beat up on immigrants who are poor rather than deal with the greedy local employers).

    2. Identify what these infrastructure limits are, balance that with the benefits and set a rate for net new residency permits. The lowest figure that would still have a positive impact on our economy is between 1-2% of our labour force per year.

    3. You can split residency permits in half, with half going to those who have certain skills and half to a random lottery decided in their home country (with safeguards against corruption of our officials).

    This is rational, realistic, unracist management of immigration. Tell me why you disagree with that. But if we were to do these three things, we would reduce the amount of immigrants classified as illegal, but we are unlikely to have much less immigration than we do have. Forcing immigration lower when we have a high cost of living problem is economically insane.

    We are a small economy. One of the key constraints of size is that the forces of competition and innovation are weak and yet to survive in a globalised world we need to be internationally competitive, or go the route of the PDC. The weakness of competitive forces has contributed to a ossified structure and ownership of our economy that does not favour its black majority. The way to change this is through immigration not xenophobia. The measurable economic benefits of immigration “grossly underestimate the likely economic gains from the added diversity and dynamism that immigrants bring. Foreigners …bring different skills, varied views, diverse experiences and a zeal for self-improvement that combine with the talents of local people to boost innovation, productivity and economic growth.” (P. Legrain, Immigrants, 2007)

    We need this more than Canada needs it, but you want us to be far less open than they are. (I am not advocating Canadian levels of immigration because their population density is far lower than ours, but note that in the periods of rapid growth in Canada, managed immigration meant that 25% of the population were born outside Canada, today the figure is still as high as 16%.

  • David // February 5, 2008 at 5:54 AM

    The economics points out that lower immigration means higher costs of living and lower growth, so your next refuge is that you would manage immigration to change its mix, away from unskilled to the skilled. The economic evidence is that it is the unskilled immigrants that allows costs to fall, economic growth to accelerate and provides the room and revenues to “upskill” our workers.

    Thomas Gresham it is often said that patience is a virtue and in my exchanges with you we have come to appreciate it. In our reference to Canada we made the point that Canada has attempted while trying to manage immigration to match incoming skills with what is required to build capacity in that economy. It other words they have a strategic plan. We never stated that there is no place for unskilled workers. We are starting to believe that you are making statements to be provocative only. Even though Canada is held up as a model for exemplifying a good immigration policy it still has its flaws. What about Barbados which has an ad hoc system?

    The other point we wish to make that the current system of managing immigration which allows Guyanese and others to enter the country six or seven times despite being declared persona non grata is sufficient evidence we think to make the point that the management framework of our immigration system needs some work.

    Now tell us what part of this comment can be construed as racist?

  • Bush Tea // February 5, 2008 at 7:26 AM

    David..

    Are you familiar with the implications of arguing with a fool…?

  • Analyst // February 5, 2008 at 12:20 PM

    David: I do admire your patience with Thomas Gresham (TG). I think that TG means well but he is looking at the subject from a simply theoretical standpoint (Economics 101), and seems to forget certain realities (or variables), on the ground.
    ……………………………………………………………….
    I would now like to talk a bit about CSME.. although it is not the central theme here….

    The issue is really whether CSME will work for Barbados when fully implemented. Right now it is partially implemented with certain categories like graduates, musicians artists etc. Artisans and unskilled persons still have eto get work permits. The aim of CSME is to ensure that all facets of the agreement are in place by 2015.

    The main reality of CSME is that there is free movement of capital and people between the members of Caricom. The strong business people in the region want the free capital movement for investment. they also want the expanded markets with special benefits re duties and other trade controls (e.g. C.E.S).

    Therefore CSME means effectively one economy with a strong central control, but with individual countries having some control in local decision making. It may not mean one currency like in the eight OECS countries, but like the UK and the EU, there may be different currencies as we have now.

    The idea of CSME stared since the failed W.I. Federation over 50 years ago, which mirrored the UK. government management systems of their colonial structure. Since then the Region has formed various entities which is now Caricom and its entity – the CSME. The problems why CSME will have lots of problems have been reflected on this thread as well as similar ones here on B.U. and B.F.P. I see the situation now like this:

    1.Caricom was asked to form CSME as the FTAA was not going to talk to a whole set of small islands. The formation was taken out of Guyana and moved to Barbados as they wanted to ensure the success of the entity, and away from the talkshop called Caricom ecretariat – a toothless entity.

    2. FTAA plans got scuttled so the USA set up the Central America Free Trade Area (CAFTA) and included the Dominican rebublic. I believe that the USA is no longer interested in what the ex-British colonies do.. as it is not an economic or security issue, except for illegal drugs.

    3. Chavez and Venezuela has put a spanner in the USa plans with his South American initiative where he is promoting ALBA, a trading and investment entity that would promote south American integration – using Venezuela’s oil wealth. We already see island like Dominica moving towards joining that entity. We cannot tell if Chavez will succeed, but his Petro Caribe and ALBA initiatives, however it is obvious that times have changed, and new options are there especially in a Caricom that is weak and ineffective.

    4. It may be noted that the EU deal sigbed last December is NOT with Caricom but with each of the countries including the Dominican Republic. .. that form Cariforum. this tells us that they do not consider Caricom as a signatory for the individual countries.

    5. I beleieve that Caricom is a talk shop that makes agreements taht are not followed through with action or implementation e.g The Caribbean Court of Justice. I believe that the CSME was created to ensure integration, but it has also been plagued by the same implementation issues where there is no buy-in by every country to ensure its success
    .
    6. Then there is the change of governments in the region and a new set of faces in Jamaica, St. Lucia and now Barbados. Are these governments really MORE committed to Caricom or CSME as their predecessors? I would say NO!, based on waht I have heard in the news and from speeches. These governments are also occupied with serious internal problems revolving around economic matters and criminal activity that could affect their main industry of TOURISM.

    7. Trinidad should have taken a lead role in Caricom and CSME and has not. Petro-Caribe was a wake up call for them but they are only interested in building Trinidad and exporting and investing in the region using the preferential entitlements. Jamaica seems far away from everything and has never taken a lead role recently in any integration movement. P.M. Bruce Golding was never a supporter of CSME so can you expect any interest from him? He has to deal with a country with” the highest murder rate in the world”, according to the Economist magazine.

    8. So I think that the CSME king has no clothes and efforts to clothe him at this time will fail. Why? The USA does not care what we do. The drug lors and the crime entities control Trinidad Jamaica and Guyana which are the three largest countries. The economies are all under stress except for Trinidad… but their increasing crime is afecting everything there.

    9. In Barbados we have the CSME office which was ably run by ex PM Owen Arthur. The ideals of economic integration were spawned in the days of Barbados’s Barrow and Guyana’s Burnham in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s.. Many of its ideals are credible. The issue is always in the level and processes to implementation, and this has been dismal throughout the last 25 years. Lately, the reality of the illicit drugs and crime in many of the islands mentioned earlier does not encourage uncontrolled free movement of populations, irrespective of the arguments of some that immigration is a good thing. The pressure is also on labour competition which would lower wages and standards as well as put pressure on housing, education and health services in some countries. e.g Barbados, which is a small island but with a relatively high standard of living will attract immigrants.

    10. Lastly ,the new Prime Minister David Thompson of Barbados is now reposible for CSME as Owen Arthur was in the past, since its formation. It would be interesting as see what he does about the “REALITIES of CSME”, as they affect the region and Barbados in particular. It is not an easy decision for him to make as he cannot be seen not to accept the CSME mantra, even though little has been done to ensure an orderly and inclusive approach by ALL of the Caricom members to ensure its success – if that is the agreed wish of the PEOPLE within Caricom.

    Analyst

  • Warrior // February 5, 2008 at 12:48 PM

    I still need to fully understand the role of the increasing amount of Asians living in Barbados.

    This is another area, which if left unchecked might go down in the history books as bringing us on par with Australia’s humble beeginnings.

  • Warrior // February 5, 2008 at 12:49 PM

    I apologize, the word should be beginning.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 5, 2008 at 5:02 PM

    Dear David,

    Let me tell you two real stories – in some risk of losing my anonymity. Not stories I am proud of, and I beg for your understanding.

    I had a helper last year, who was a Afro-Guyanese. She was recommended to me from a friend. She was a fantastic help to me, my wife, kids and our pets. She looked after and loved my family. Her son came over to spend some time with us and he was a lovely, boy, missing his mum. We felt love for the family.

    I discovered three months later that she had overstayed her visa. I discovered this when one day she came in late, and it transpired that she was trying to dodge the police who had done a search of the area looking for illegal immigrants. The police picked up many of her friends but, perhaps, because she is black and did not look like her Indian friends she was not picked up. She was scared. She told me frightening tales of how badly the Guyanese police treated deportees – locking them up without bathroom facilities for over 24 hours. Her cousin had soiled herself and been degraded by the Guyanese police.

    I spoke to an immigration lawyer who said to me there was nothing to be done to change her legal position, she had to return. I explained to her that it would be better if she returned home by herself. She did not want to leave. I said I would pay for her return ticket and give her money to live on for a couple months. She relented one week later after another police swoop.

    She was not maltreated by anybody on the way out and back in Guyana. Three months later she tried to return to Barbados. She was refused entry on the grounds that she had previously overstayed. She was deported and treated poorly back home. I transferred some money and explained to her that I could not employ someone who was not legal.

    My wife is Trinidadian. She has four degrees and academic prizes. She has taught at the best Universities in the world. She applied for a CSME certificate so that she could stay in Barbados. Trinidad gave it to her after a frustrating 12 months of form filling and document transfers. She arrived in Barbados (I and the kids are Barbadian) and she was told that Barbados does not accept the Trinidad certification and she would have to repeat the process in Barbados. Since then I have come across two other people in exactly the same boat.

    My experience of working in Barbados after sometime abroad is that our economy is crying out to being grabbed by the coat-tails and shaken up in the way that hungry economic immigrants do. But unskilled workers cannot get work permits.

    We have an inconsistent immigration policy. We have only recently got tougher on overstayers. But does all this strike you as an “open door” policy?

    I have already set out the three things we need to do to better manage immigration (which you have chosen to ignore):

    (1) tougher on employers of overstayers (I should have been fearful that she was an overstayer)
    (2) give permits equal to 1-2% of the labour force every year, half for the unskilled, half for the skilled,
    (3) use the economic benefits of immigration to upskill our unskilled.

  • Bush tea // February 5, 2008 at 7:01 PM

    The real problem with illegal immigration is with selfish, dishonest Barbadians like Gresham who flout the laws to employ illegal aliens in order to underpay and exploit them.
    I am willing to bet that both he and his wife work at BARBADIAN pay rates, under BARBADIAN conditions that have been negotiated directly or indirectly by the BWU and other unions.
    These people – (many contractors, businessmen etc are guilty of this)- actually seek out these unfortunate immigrants who they know have no recourse, and exploit them with low wages, long hours and unreasonable duties (looking after your pets indeed!!)

    But to admit to aiding and abetting someone that he knows to be breaking the laws, and assisting in hiding them from the police is shameful….and to document it all here….well what can I say?

    Bur David herein lies the root of our problem…SELFISHNESS.
    Bajans who want to work for decent wages themselves, but who want to exploit others who happen to be in unfortunate circumstances, and so avoid paying decent wages for services needed themselves.

    …no wonder he wants an open door.
    These ‘employers’ are the ones that our immigration laws should be targeting.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 5, 2008 at 7:16 PM

    Bush Tea.

    Once more your assumptions pander to your prejudices but are false.

    I sent her home as soon as I knew she was illegal. I never hid her and I paid her to go home. I doubt you would.

    She wasn’t under paid. She was paid B$70 for a days work. You would pay more? And no, anyone who reads this blog would guess, but I know you need help, I am not paid at a BWU rate.

    Keep on missing the points you want to miss and making up others if you wish. But the point was that my experience is not one of an “open door”

  • Thomas Gresham // February 5, 2008 at 7:18 PM

    Bush Tea,

    By the way, I was the first one on this bog to argue repeatedly that what we need to do is to be tougher on employers who hire illegals (so that they are forced to check and not turn a blind eye).

  • Bush tea // February 5, 2008 at 7:52 PM

    …You mean you still don’t get my point?
    I would not have to pay to send my help home because she is a BAJAN who lives within walking distance. I pay her more that $70 because she has been with me for nearly 20 years and her wages grew with my salary.

    If I chose to go to Trinidad to live I would expect to assimilate into Trini culture and Trini ways. I would seek Trini helpers and pay at Trini rates.
    I would obey Trini laws…. I would become a Trini.

    …you are just a lot of talk.
    First I explained to you that if you feel so strongly about having strangers coming into our small country you should demonstrate this by opening your home to an orphan or other destitute person by way of example…. no action.

    Now you say that you were first to argue for tough laws on employers of illegals… and you hire a n illegal without even checking her papers (otherwise you would know her time was up..)

    …man go off the computer and go and feed your pets or something.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 5, 2008 at 8:10 PM

    Bust Tea,

    I said I was not proud of the example. I did not have to be honest to you and I could have done what many Bajans do, which is to pretend not to know and not to say a word. I acted. I acted in the best interests of her and with consideration for the law. I feel I did the christian thing, but as I said before, I was not proud of the whole thing.

    But the issue is not my actions (get with the pont) but the actions of the immigration and police service and whether this smacked of an open door policy or not.

    You chose to ignore that as you chose to ignore all facts and argument in favour of your cave man economics. Just try transplanting your ideas to any other country and you will see how foolhardy they are. Imagine a Brit saying they would never employ a Barbadian only a Brit or otherwise they would not be being British. There are 1 million Poles in Britain today – guess who employs them.

  • Bush tea // February 5, 2008 at 8:17 PM

    Have a good night Mr Thomas G.
    For some time now my point has been that you are all talk and long posts, and no action or reality behind the words.
    QED.
    I close my case.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 5, 2008 at 8:19 PM

    Dear Bush Tea,

    Yes, it must be your bed time now. Have a good night.

  • Humphrey // February 5, 2008 at 8:51 PM

    If Barbados was 90% Indian and some of you black guys were trying to get in you would understand what sister baby is talking about. No not all Indians are racist. But ask those black cricketers who plays for the West Indies what they think about playing in Guyana and Trinidad. Some the people would praise the Indians on the West Indies side, while booing the black players. Hell, only recently Indian spectators were referring to a black Australian player as a “monkey”. And he aint even very black.

    David Duke claims he went to India to learn about Aryan Supremacy. That should tell you about the culture behind Indian Racism. To many of them black people represent their Hindu devil. That is why they threaten to kill their daughter if they date black men.

  • Humphrey // February 5, 2008 at 9:20 PM

    Maybe if there was an annonymous blog for Guyanese Indians, some would spout the same racist crap as we are hearing from some of our own people. Which would be a pity and cause for us to work doubly harder for harmony. The solution is not a version of Ian Smith’s Unilateral Declaration of Independence from the rest of the world.

    ############################

    There are a lot blogs where Guyanese Indians and Trinidad Indians call black people dogs and refer to us as criminals. I watched a BBC program on Guyana a couple of years ago and Indians were referring to guyanese blacks as “black dogs”. Neither this or any other blog populated by black people can equal the visceral racist expressions that inundate those sites.

    In the first place TG, black people do nopt originate from any cultural belief system based on racial suremacy. Examine the history of racism in this world and its expression have alway been founded on the mythical belief that one group is superior and the other is inferior.

    Indians originate from a culture with a history of caste ordaining ones position. Unfortunately too many of them, when they came to the Caribbean, morphed into Brahmins and so blacks here have to become Dalits….

  • Humphrey // February 5, 2008 at 9:44 PM

    We are struggling to understand why BU is being labeled as racist?

    ##########################

    Everytime a black person points out the prejucies of SOME Indians that is labelled as racism. And in the course of making that accusation, the accuser makes exactly the same kinds of statements that they consider racist when it comes from blacks.

    Let us examine attitudes across the globe. Blacks are color blind consumers in whose communities all and sundry come to do business. In Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago, when there is an Indian Holiday blacks come out and participate. Contrast that to holidays commemorating some aspect of black history.

    Yes there are blacks who are prejudiced as occurs with every other group. What you do not have with blacks is the systematic and organized racist behaviour that is the result of prejudice plus power.

    For many Indians living under the rule of a blackman is an anathema. They are unwilling, some say, to live under the son of a slave.

    I do not believe that all Indians are racist. I do not believe that most Indians are racist. What happens is that Indians tend to close ranks rather than admitting that some of them are racist. They virtually lynched Keane Gibson in Guyana for exposinjg what is common knowledge, and what many Indians and other non black people have been writing about for eons. Take one look at the images of Bollywood and you get the picture of where the color priority is.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 6, 2008 at 3:52 AM

    I see that the racists are hiding behind the story of caste, a device used by Gibson.

    Let us be clear of three things.

    1. Caste is one shameful part of the practice of hinduism. Many hindus would agree with that. It was exploited by British colonial rule and made into something that it was not before. One of the first acts of the independent government was to outlaw caste discrimination, that was 60 years ago.

    2. Caste was one of the reasons why many hindus changed their religion and became Muslims, Sikhs, Bhudists. To label all Indians as under the yolk of caste is wrong. Many of these conversions occurred in the 18th and 19th centuries and have largely stopped now that caste is largely in the past, though as we know, the vestiges of past discrimation last long and need to be attacked constantly.

    3. The past practice of caste like systems, and discrimination based on different races of tribes is not unique to India and is a strong element of the conflicts today in Kenya, Rwanda, Zaire and Sudan. What do you think is happening in Kenya today? Our black culture has connections with Africa and with the British. British superiority culture played a shameful part in the genocide of the Amerindians, Aborigines and of course in slavery. To say that Indians are somehow culturally tuned into racism in a way that we are not is deliberately misleading.

    Hitler justified his actions because he said the jews were intrinsically racist. The colonialists justified slavery because blacks, they said, were intrinsically inferior and they had the (“white man’s”) burden to save us from ourselves. It is the common device of racists to demonise those they dislike and to victimise themselves. Dont.

  • David // February 6, 2008 at 6:01 AM

    Humphrey did we not hear the same arguments when the Mutual Society, as it was then, being challenged for its perceived decisions at Board level along racial lines? It seems to us that Sagicor has benefited from the exercise, wouldn’t you say?

  • Humphrey // February 7, 2008 at 3:18 AM

    Absolutely David. I have little patience with idiots who wax philosophically around the perimeters of issues and perceive that it will be taken as an indication of their intellectual growth and maturity. What it amounts to is much ado about symbols and very little about substance.

    TG no one is saying that all Indians are racist. Neither are we postulating that racism is unique to India. Like all of those who refuse to call a shovel a shovel, you point to the existence of an evil elswhere to rationalize its presence somewhere. That is a puerile proposition, and insults the intelligence exhibited in this db.

    The fact that Hindus changed their religion to escape the taint of caste do not rebut the notion that some of them carried the culture of anti-blackness into their new awareness. Look at Darfur. Ask Danny Glover who it was that refused to pick him up in a taxi in Manhattan.

    Look, let me make it plain and unambiguous. Anti black prejudice is a universal trait, existing even among the very population group that is the target of the antipathy. We spend too much time trying rationalize why people do not like us, and too little time telling them like it is, and telling to go take a hike.

    I absolutely regect your sophomoric posit that identifying and analysing racist and prejudicial traits among some group amounts to racism. This is the weapon of choice for those of you wish to silence debate on a topic you are either, uncomfortable with, or consider to be a sacred cow requiring protection against illumination. Regardless of which it is, the practise is still nauseating.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 7, 2008 at 4:11 AM

    Humphrey,

    You dont get it.

    Racism is when you say that an another race is intrinsically (e.g. built in to their culture) bad or racist, as you and your friends are doing on this post.

    This racism is dangerous.

    In its most ridiculous and dangerous form it was fanned by Hutu extremists against the Tutsis and led to the genocide of Rwanda. The extremists are dong it in Kenya to forment hatred between the Kikuyu and the Luo.

    It must be confronted for what it is, wherever it is, from whoever it is.

  • Humphrey // February 7, 2008 at 7:26 AM

    Humphrey,

    You dont get it.

    Racism is when you say that an another race is intrinsically (e.g. built in to their culture) bad or racist, as you and your friends are doing on this post.

    This racism is dangerous.
    #############################

    It is you who do not get it. If you did you would post the quote where I said or alluded that which you are alleging. You keep parroting a mantra that is contextually distant from my propositions. What the hell is the matter with you?

    I have noticed that you have this prevaricative disposition to mischaracterize what those you don’t agree with say. I said SOME Indians. I said of course not all Indians are racist. I said maybe most Indians are not racist. That you persist in reading into my comments that which you wish to argue against is evidence that you come to these discussions seriously flawed in terms of your capacity get the point.

    Over four hundred young blackmen were kidnapped, tortured and killed in Guyana under the guise of vigilante justice. Indians commit violent crimes disguised in Rasta wigs and young blackmen get gunned down. Blackmen and black women who have spent years in the Public Service in Guyana are shunted aside while unqualified party hacks get positions over them. If that was happening in a white majoritarian nation it would be described as racism. Why the hell should it be euphemicized because the majority happen to be a darker shade of pale. Give me a break.

    Your platitudinous assertions are par for the course for those with their heads up their rear end, who attack others and accuse them of being racist for exposing racism.

    Let me give you a little english lesson. There is difference between racism and prejudice. Making statements that generalizes across a group is prejudice, judgemental. Being Prejudiced and acting on it to the detriment of those you are prejudiced against is an act of racism.

    I am done talking with you. I debate people who respond to what I say, not those who twist it in order to find a point to argue against. That is pathetic

  • Thomas Gresham // February 7, 2008 at 7:59 PM

    This is my last post on this topic.

    The quotes below from Humphrey’s blogs reveals a racist characterization of Indians as being inherently worse than us when it comes to racial discrimination.

    To define other cultures as inherently racist and their own as above all that, is what racists do,

    it is, sadly, an airbrushed view of our own history that ignores the 1 million people who died in the conflict between the Ibo and southern Nigerians during the Biafra war, or the 1 million who died in the conflict between the Hutu and the Tutsi in Rawanda or those dying today in the conflict between the Kikuyu and the Luo in Kenya today.

    According to Humphrey:

    “black people do nopt originate from any cultural belief system based on racial suremacy.”

    “David Duke claims he went to India to learn about Aryan Supremacy. That should tell you about the culture behind Indian Racism.”

    “Blacks are color blind consumers in whose communities all and sundry come to do business.”

    “Indians originate from a culture with a history of caste ordaining ones position”

    “To many of them black people represent their Hindu devil.”

    “What you do not have with blacks is the systematic and organized racist behaviour that is the result of prejudice plus power.

  • Humphrey // February 7, 2008 at 11:01 PM

    Either you are crazy, or just insipid. In the first place all of those comments are factual.

    Africans are one of the few groups absent a belief system based on their superiority.

    David Duke claims that until he went to India, he never understood the real difference between races.

    Blacks are color blind consumers, that is why businesses in our communities are veritable mosaic of various cultures. You have to either stupid or just plain dumb not to know this.

    Indians do originated from a system where caste determines ones position. The belief is based on what part of the body of the deity each group was created from. The darkest, the dalits were said to be created from the feet of the deity, hence their position at the bottom of the social pyramid.

    To many Indians in Guyana black people represent the Hindu Devil. Cheddie Jagan described Burnham as nickaram, or whatever name is used to denote the devil.

    Tell me of any place in this world where black people are behind an organized system of racist behaviour against a minority population.

    Your world is apparently defined by a tunnel that allows limited light in terms of the reality. Stating what is a fact cannot be racist. I am tired of fools who surf the issues of this world and ejaculate the kind of opinions one expects from fifth graders. ejaculate a lot of nonsense of This is what happens when people mliYou have to be very cvaccuous carry out organized You are our commiunity u

  • Anonymous // February 11, 2008 at 9:51 AM

    I stumbled upon the BU website I am in complete shock that the majority of comments are blatantly racist. If such comments were made about Jews in Germany or Asians in the UK y’all would be considered Neo-Nazis. What planet are you one? What century do you live in? The Caribbean has been multi-racial for centuries, not just Trinidad and Guyana, but St. Lucia, St. Vincent, Grenada, Jamaica, and yes even your precious & pure Barbados. The only way forward is to embrace the Creole identity that defines the Caribbean (read Walter Rodney), without suppressing each other’s right to belong. Maybe you need to look into the history books (make me wonder about the Bajan educational system) — you would realize that most of us (African, Indian, Chinese, Portuguese) were transported to the Caribbean to cater to the economic interests of imperialist Britain. It is precisely narrow-minded, racially exclusive people like you who are the cause of problems in the Caribbean. Educate your minds, set yourself free!!!

  • sunnyland // February 12, 2008 at 7:19 AM

    Iam supposed to travel to barbados on work and stay for 6 months. I stumbled up on this site to find that there is lot of racist feelings against indians(i mean from East India). Iam travelling to this place for the first time. After going thru this blog iam really concerned though I will be in Barbados to improve FCIB bank operations for better economy and banking.

    Now please let me know is it good to stay in barbados and work for shorter periods for indians, paying all the taxes(i always do wherever i work!)

  • Thomas Gresham // February 12, 2008 at 11:53 AM

    Dear Sunnyland,

    The racist views expressed on this blog are disturbing and shameful, especially given our history.

    However, they represent a small minority, some of whom do not actually live in Barbados.

    I know many professional friends of Indian descent, especially in the finance sector, who live and work happily in Barbados – many have done so for decades and have Barbados-born children who view themselves as Barbadians with Indian traditions. They have helped to improve the international competitiveness of sectors of our economy that contribute substantially in terms of tax and employment.

    I had some friends over for dinner last night and there were a couple wives of Indian descent here, and I asked them whether the racist views I had seen on this site was something they had come across more generally. One said no, the other said only last week she had come across someone saying to her that “everyone knew that crime in Barbados was committed by Indo-Guyanese”. As if we did not have crime before and as if our prison is currently full of Indo-Guyanese (not). But the point is that these views are held by a few, particularly uninformed people, not the average Barbadian, who is generally a well-informed person.

    So, come along to Barbados, and help us develop our banking sector, and enjoy your stay. And while you are here, help us develop a more internationally competitive banking system with lower bank charges……

  • sunnyland // February 14, 2008 at 1:30 AM

    Thanks Thomas for your views. This gives me some confidence and inclination to travel Barbados.

  • indijoe // February 14, 2008 at 8:02 AM

    Is it not biased to say ‘All illegal migrants are indians’ though passively Mr.David. Our open door policy as you claim to be, is not open for illegal migrants of indian origin. It is leniant on africans and others but I could see for myself and also got to know from others in the neighbourhood that the enforcement authorities are selectively targetting indians (whether indo-guyanese/indians) in search of their ‘illegal migrants’.

    Iam living here for past 2years on a valid visa and working with MNC here. I also worked in US and UK for some years and so had good / bad experiences of racism. I found that blacks (if i can call them as, though iam not racist but going thru these blogs makes me sad!) in general do have a superiority complex over Indians(or browns?). They behave little indifferent to us in a group…seem heckling at us. I have observed the same indifference even in the Barbados national carrier while flying from US coast. All these indicate that Blacks in general are complex to get set in a multi racial country.

    But status of Africa today with infighting tells me even with in blacks there are many differences. So being different is no bad but to understand others is most vital for survival of any multi racial country. I love Barbados for its beaches and Garry sobers such a fine cricketer in the world. I wish Barbados doesnt fall under this mad racist feelings. Live and let live.

  • indijoe // February 14, 2008 at 8:35 AM

    btw as this blog trained guns on Indians as the racist, made me laugh for the misinformation that people here seem to have, as India having suffered for 200 years of British imperial and racial rule, be itself racial? Let us check some facts on India and Indians

    1. Post independence, India isolated SA because of its apartheid and racial policies at blacks. India lost valuable biz of cheaper diamonds, mine technology etc because of its anti-apartheid policy, implemented even before UK / USA could really think of.

    2. India initiated NAM (non aligned movement) included most of the african nations to be independent and not to be exploited by either of USA or Russia in cold war days. By doing this India lost out to both the super powers and suffered brain drain out of india as many scientists had to leave for greener pastures for want of better employment. India suffered but not let others suffer.

    3. India constantly supported public movements in nations under UK imperial rule till they got independence, in UNO by voting for those voices. India stood out clearly of the rest with its outspoken foreign policy of ‘freedom from uppression’ as it knows the value of freedom.

    4. It suffered losses to Pakistan / China as a policty of ‘no first use of army aggression’ against these countries. By doing this, those countries could occupy much of the disputed border areas which were not returned to India after the wars. India always stands of non violence and peaceful solutions of its regional disputes.

    5. India and Indians allowed numerous sects / races to come and settle in the country…most of whom just invaded the country to ransom by taking away innumerous treasures of gold and diamonds to their country. UK is the prime beneficiary. If you visit UK you can see all those treasures displayed at Queens’ gallery at Buckingham palace.

    Anyways if we can understand others to an extant possible, then it makes our life meaningful. Let us not forget that almost all of those who knock our doors are not thieves…so are Indians! We are just here to work for some money and not to rob you off. Live and let live!

  • Yardbroom // February 14, 2008 at 10:55 AM

    One often despairs at the information disseminated on the blogs, particularly when opinions of individuals are taken as representative of a particular group and actions of a few, are considered the actions of a given racial type.

    Let us first examine the Indo/Guyanese situation in Barbados, based on facts only.

    (1) Barbados is a very small island with a majority black population.

    (2) It follows that a small sudden increase in certain parliamentary constituencies, can upset a balance that has been there for generations.

    (3) Barbados has been reasonably trouble free in comparison with some islands in the Caribbean.

    (4) It is true that there is tension in both Guyana and Trinidad between Guyanese of Indian heritage and blacks, as evidenced by recent events. The blame for this tension I will put to one side now – I am only interested in facts.

    Let us now address concerns, some Barbadians are concerned that if there is an increase in the Indo/Guyanese population, particularly if those immigrants are illegal, and the type of persons who have caused trouble in Guyana, they will do the same in Barbados. That is a reasonable position to take.

    The issue of the economic benefit of immigrants is a separate issue, because there are some who will say, we would rather not have the economic benefits, if the price to be paid is the instability that is prevalent in Guyana and Trinidad.

    I would suggest, if the new illegal immigrants and I state “illegal” were from Africa, Europe or where ever, if it was thought their behaviour was causing concern, the reaction of some Barbadians would be as it is now.

    What some Barbadians are saying is that immigrants should be legal, they should have permission to work in Barbados if that is what they intend to do, and they should not engage in crime and other unsocial activities which cause the Barbadian authorities concern.

    That is a reasonable position, which is taken by countries all over the world, why should Barbados be any different. Can anyone just turn up in America? even the Mexicans who share a common border cannot do so. Can anyone just turn up in the UK or any European Country if they just feel like doing so, why should Barbados be any different. Could I just go to India or Pakistan to live if I felt like doing so, no I could not, and I would not be offended for that position, they are sovereign countries.

    Race has been used here to identify, as a result a broad brush approach has been taken, which is most unfortunate.

  • indijoe // February 15, 2008 at 6:38 AM

    As some one pointed here, the level of crime in Barbados indulged by the locals is far more critical than illegal migrants settling down at this stage. Having said that there should be more pro active migraton laws which can “regulate” than ’selectively punitive’ applicable for all races irrespective of the color, which will definitely help Barbados. Then comes what kinda skills we require, if we employ indians of hi skills then are we prepared work under their leadership? NO so we shall prefer lower skilled migrants then they may get in larger numbers and so the locals might become more negative over the policy and say “We dont want anybody” So lets snap the doors?

    But ‘close door’ policy will not help the country anymore in the times of globalisation and even other larger countries failed to be closed for long likes of Russian federation, India, China etc with all their marco economies and scalable resources at hand including human resources. For countrys development and upliftment the social strata and society should always have right mix of people and wealth, though we can never have equal wealth distribution in any society in the past, present and future times even.

    Yardbroom – In India there are atleast 10millions of refugees (illegal migrants) from Pakistan/Bangladesh/Srilanka/Bhutan and host of other nations you might not have even heard off, are living and government on its part paying for their expenses. Iam not counting on ‘Dalai Lama’ and his religious people living in Monasteries bordering China having been thrown out of Tibet. India has shown tremondous will and patience to all of these ‘have nots’. Well that doesnt mean Barbados should afford such migrant flow. I know kinda economies and size matters a lot.

    But I wish Barbados lives peacefully without mad racist feelings.

  • David // February 15, 2008 at 6:43 AM

    indijoe ~we see you agree with us that we need to manage inflows of immigrants. We see you make mention of a similar problem which India has but then you qualified the statement by recognizing you are comparing a large India to a small Barbados. What are you saying?

  • indijoe // February 15, 2008 at 7:44 AM

    Dear David, if you could go thru my earlier posts you would realise that India/ indians or Hindu bashing is not solutions for Barbados problems, as some of the bloggers did blatantly on this blog.

    From my previous posts it is self explanatory of my intentions for a peaceful Barbados. I wish Barbados learn to manage the migrants inflow sans any discrimination and not as some of you suggested in this blog. Taking Indians as the root cause for todays crime neither represent the true state nor help the country. ‘All illegal migrants are indians’ though passively expressed in the article, doesnt augur well for the society which is embracing the new economical order of the world.

  • Yardbroom // February 15, 2008 at 10:43 AM

    indijoe
    You wrote “Yardbroom-In India there are at least 10 millions of refugees (illegal migrants) from Pakistan/Bangladesh/Srilanka/Bhutan and a host of other nations you might not have heard of”…

    The above statement shows you have not grasped the central problem we are discussing.

    None of those countries has the African/Indian mix which Barbadians are concerned about, eg nearer home in Trinidad and Guyana where tensions have arisen.

    If as you wish me to, go further afield, in Kenya, Uganda Fiji to name a few countries where the indigenous population is of African heritage there have been problems when the Indian population has risen to a noticeable percentage. I will not hazard a guess why – as I am only interested in outcomes.

    For those of us who have travelled or lived in Asian countries, we have opinions why, but that is just opinion.

    What I have stated is based on history, facts and the experience of other countries. I would like to think Barbados will be different to all the others in that regard …but I fear not.

  • indijoe // February 16, 2008 at 1:42 AM

    Yardbroom,

    I was just replying to your earlier blog
    “…Can anyone just turn up in the UK or any European Country if they just feel like doing so, why should Barbados be any different. Could I just go to India or Pakistan to live if I felt like doing so, no I could not….” to let you know how impractical and porous international illegal migrant rules are.
    USA and UK also no exception to this.

    Migrants be it legal or illegal brings in certain economic advantages and their willingness to work hard in extreme conditions made mark for them. But not always liked by the locals for the fear of not being as competetive as them and to mitigate such rise of non-locals, we raise on to religion, social strata, race …what not!

    I hate being racial towards any person based on his color or descendence and I wont be timid in raising such exclusive, race based policies and thought process anywhere!

  • Yardbroom // February 16, 2008 at 6:35 AM

    indiejoe
    I do not see the Barbados situation as simply racial, if the “illegal” immigrants were black and from another West Indian island, concerns would still be expressed.

    The main problem is that Barbadians have models close at hand, to which they can refer eg Trinidad and Guyana and the outcomes there in the main have not been good.

    It is true that immigrants both legal and “illegal” can sometimes benefit a country in the short term. However in “some instances” the societal negative impact can outweigh those economic advantages, therefore the reasons for concern.

    I would never denigrate a people on the basis of race alone, I have never done so. The issue here is societal cohesion, orderly function of society and efforts to ensure that the fabric of Barbadian society to which immigrants feel disposed to be part of, is kept intact.

  • Humphrey // February 16, 2008 at 1:08 PM

    Can anyone name a country with black indigenous residents or black residents that preceded the arrival of Indians, where these population groups live in harmony. Forget the cause of the tension just name one and let’s go from there.

    People like to talk around issues rather than dealing with facts and realities. They choose political correctness over rational examination. Barbados is a small nation with social and economic stability inconsistent with her more resource rich neighbours of Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago. That the primary causative operant in the situation of those two states is tension, suspicion and insecurity between the two major groups speaks for itself. Maybe Africans and Indians are just not culturally compatible to exist harmoniously on a common plain.

    The immigrants mentioned migrating to India are different mainly in beliefs rather than in physical make-up. So that is a straw argument being juxtapositioned to evade the central issue. The central issue is whether Barbados as a small nation will be helped or harmed by an influx of new people from social environments inundated with prejudice? Will the residue of that nurturing be conducive to the health and well being of Barbados? Forget this shit about economic benefits. Of what good is that if the price is Barbados becoming a smaller version of Guyana or Trinidad and Tobago. Let’s make it bloody plain man.

  • Thomas Gresham // February 16, 2008 at 1:37 PM

    Almost every southern and east African country has a large Indian minority (e.g. South Africa, Tanzania, Zambia, Malawi, Kenya etc). The Indians came with the trading routes across the Indian ocean. North Africa of course has a large Muslim majority.

    In South Africa, Zambia, Malawi, Tanzania there is a long history of peaceful co-existence and you often come across Indian Ministers and officials in these African countries. There is of course far more intra-African strife (Congo, Rwanda, Angola, Nigeria, Ethiopia, than the odd African-Indian strife in Africa.

    The one place where there was major trouble, in Uganda, when many black Ugandans expressed similar views being expressed here about Indians, and the Indians were chucked out. In recent years the Black Ugandan government has been trying to get them to come back.

  • Humphrey // February 16, 2008 at 7:25 PM

    You are absolutely wrong. There are problems on the Cape in South Africa. A song was made about it and it got banned. There are problems in Kenya. Talk to black Kenyans and they will inundate you with anecdotes of prejudice.

    The Indians that were sent away from Uganda all had British Passports. That was the central issue behind their deportation. I disagree with the procedure and considered it racist, but it was not simply a case of Indians being willy nilly [icked on and sent away.

    In Fiji, the indigenuos peoples revolted because 0f discrimination and prejudice. The same trend surfaced when Panday was in power in T&T, and is in operation in Guyana today.

    If Africa and Africans were predisposed to be judgemental about others I doubt if the tendency would have been for people to be pouring into the countries and communities where they are, than vice versa. There is a stunning myopia existing in an argumjent that does not examine mountainous evidence of receptivity.

  • Humphrey // February 16, 2008 at 7:33 PM

    India as a narion has never had a policy of racism against blacks and no one has made that argument. It is an extrapolation employed to avoid dealing with the facts as they are represented. If you guys get me pissed I will visit the numerous Indian Websites in cuber space and post excerpts of their comments. Nothing in here comes close to what is said about blacks on GNI and other predominant Indian Websites, and I will make it my duty to copy and paste examples for the fools to ruminate on. vvthAll of the comments spoke of th

  • Humphrey // February 16, 2008 at 7:41 PM

    indians save……starve themselves, take loans, build house, starve self more pay loan

    blacks parties, buy nikes, enjoy life

    These are the recent comments from a predominant Indian Guyanese website, and this is mild in comparison to what is said nthere. The same people who make these racist comments come on boards like this and accuse other of being prejudice. I scour cyber space and can provide evidence behind my perspectives. You cannot find one black website with comments on par with what you will find there.

  • Humphrey // February 16, 2008 at 7:52 PM

    Freddie Kissoon
    A disturbing thing I heard at Deryck Bernard’s wake

    On Sunday evening, at the wake of Deryck Bernard, Mr. David Dewar, in a casual chat, informed me that his contract with Guyana Water Incorporated (GWI) was not renewed. I didn’t ask him to repeat the statement. I know if David Dewar said that, then it happened because Mr. Dewar is not someone given to exaggeration.

    The Dewars have served this country patriotically not only in the public sector but culturally too. Mr. Dewar has forty years experience in the water sector and may be the only Guyanese to hold a Masters degree in water engineering. He is one of the finest pubic servants this country has produced.

    The chairman of GWI, Dr. Bradley Solomon, is a colleague of mine at UG. Yesterday morning I asked him how a top class engineer could not find a place at GWI. What I heard from Dr. Solomon shows the pathological level of incompetence that has enveloped this country. Dr. Solomon seems to have agreed with me that someone like Mr. Dewar is needed at GWI but asserted that it was a decision of Dewar himself to leave.

    The Chairman of GWI told me that he knows absolutely that Mr. Dewar chose not to renew his contract. I kept pressing the point to the chairman that in unambiguous terms, Mr. Dewar informed me that GWI chose not to renew his contract. It would appear that the decision to terminate Dewar’s relationship with GWI was made by CEO, Karan Singh

    I contacted Karan Singh. He answered in the affirmative that GWI decided to let Dewar go. May I remind readers that Dr. Solomon was definitive that as chairman he knows from the documents that came in front of him that Dewar decided he wanted to leave.

    Mr. Singh contradicted Dr. Solomon by explaining to me that GWI went through a restructuring and based on that process they didn’t have any room for Dewar at GWI. He made it quite clear to me that Dewar’s job had become redundant with the reorganization within GWI. I described to Mr. Singh that the international lending agencies have classified Guyana as being in a group of the eleven poorest countries in the entire world. I further stated that Guyana has a pathetic human resource base. Against these brutal facts, I put the question to Mr. Singh if Guyana can have a water engineer with forty years experience being unemployed. Yes,he is a blackman
    Mr. Singh chose his reply carefully. He refused to answer that question. His choice of words was that in restructuring there was no place for Mr. Dewar and even if Mr. Dewar had a doctorate in water engineering, the decision to relieve him would have been the same. After repeating the question to Mr. Singh about a poor country like Guyana choosing to have qualified engineers walking the road, he again declined a comment. So I moved on to other topics at GWI. Again, it showed the lack of knowledge of what is taking place at GWI.

    I should point out to readers that I became a little annoyed with Dr. Solomon when I asked him to react to the question of more than thirty persons in the management sector of GWI that have either left or were fired. Dr. Solomon told me that since I am the one doing the research then I should seek to find out what is going on at GWI. I was somewhat taken back by such a naïve response. I fired back by arguing that since he is the chairman of GWI then he is part of my research material and he should answer my questions. As it turned out, Mr. Solomon agreed to speak to me but was not helpful, confining his knowledge to only four cases of dismissals by Mr. Singh that he knows about. He suggested that those dismissed managers should write the boards. I told him, Mr. Dennis Yearwood, with 25 years service, and a top class public servant was fired even though Board member, Komal Chand of GAWU did not agree and the matter in fact came up in front of the Board.

    My research showed that more than 30 middle and high level managers have either left GWI voluntarily, or were fired, since Mr. Singh resumed the CEO post. Mr. John Seeram, the UG Finance Director and former Board member under Minister Shaik Baksh has informed me that the figure is much higher than that. He was of the opinion that something has gone badly wrong at GWI since Mr. Singh took over and there should be an urgent investigation into the role of Mr. Singh.

    I cited that figure to Dr. Solomon. He could not confirm it but opined that the exodus was not confined to GWI but other places in Guyana. I agreed with that perception but I did alert Dr. Solomon to the fact that the number of thirty had occurred with the return of Mr. Singh and there was no parallel elsewhere in Guyana where in one firm there is such a rush to leave or persons were dismissed over just a period of two months.
    I asked Mr. Singh to comment on the four dismissals cited by Dr. Solomon. He was bold enough to say that Dr. Solomon got it wrong in that there were more than four managers he dismissed. I interjected and said; “That you dismissed?” He paused then calmly replied; “I withdraw my statement; they were dismissed by GWI.”

    Mr. Singh went on to tell me that he stands by all the notices of termination; he believes he acted properly and there were just causes for the termination letters. I then showed Mr. Singh that of the 30 persons that I know over 98% came from a particular group. His response was that he fires employees who should be fired and no other factor comes into consideration and he does not take other factors in the equation. Mr. Singh then accused me of writing wrong things about him and that I have refused to criticize the foreign firm that was in charge of GWI. He then abruptly brought the interview to an end.

    I sought a comment from Board member, Komal Chand, the only leader of a trade union that is an executive member of the ruling party of a government and a parliamentarian of the ruling party in the entire Caricom region. As I wrote above, Mr. Chand is a board member of GWI (remember my theory of incestuous politics of the PPP?). I solicited a response from him on Mr. Dennis Yearwood and the style of Mr. Karan Singh at GWI. Mr. Chand let me know that he will not give me a comment on anything concerning GWI and that was the end of the interview. I can’t say I came out good yesterday as a media operative. But you lose some; you win some.

    Do you know that Laurie Bancroft was dismissed from Customs and Excise after Jagan came to power in 1992? No reason was given and Dr. Jagan refused to listen to him. Bancroft is the only Guyanese with a Masters degree in Customs operations. Where Guyana is going to end up is so easy to predict.

  • Anonymous // February 16, 2008 at 8:03 PM

    Freddie Kisson is the one indo guyanese journalist who I am willing to listen to.

    To my mind he calls a spade a spade much to the chagrin of Basdeo Jagdeo and his racist party operatives.

    He writes in the Kaeitur News.

    What I gather from that article is that Mr Kissoon seem to be saying that the new indo CEO a Mr Singh seems to be firing all the top and middle managers who are of africn descent,even though they have valuable skills which Guyana needs.

  • Humphrey // February 16, 2008 at 8:28 PM

    Guess which group he is talkiing about. I selected the mildest of a group of comments because there is a limit too what my stomach will accomodate.

    These sentiments litter the caribbean discourse, but when we react to them and give views founded on them, the shield of protection is unravelled by extrapolating the comments across the entire group so as to have two bites of the cherry. To be able to accuse blacks of racism, while wallowing in the inverse proportionate and ego fulfilling sanctum of anti black bigotry.

    Guys do not be racist, but do not allow anyone to place you on guilt trip by defining your exposure of prejudice as racism. These are generally closet bigots who crave to have their cakes and eat it too.

    Instead of a Mash band and super fete, it will be more to Guyana’s interest to go to work and stop whining and complaining.

    It is interesting than one particular race the world over keeps hollering “racism” and “discrimination” and “marginalisation”, and at the same time have the most expensive clothes and vehicles even while they are not PROVIDED jobs – and therefore have no income.

    Forget the mash band and the super fete. GO TO WORK.

  • Humphrey // February 16, 2008 at 8:29 PM

    The portion begining with “Instead of a Mash Band” is an excerpt from a comment on blacks in Guyana.

  • Humphrey // February 16, 2008 at 8:33 PM

    Here is a dozy

    Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

    Why all people of all races deemed “racist” when they object to the degradation of their communities by blacks? How is it that Blacks are the only non-racists on earth?

    There are not many men who will have sex or marry a black female. Perhaps Green or Manning will like to explain to the world the intent of the mixed-race communities or “douglarisation”

    It is clear to me that the intended victims are women of all races who are supposed to have offsprings by blacks. Isn’t this “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment”?.

  • Humphrey // February 16, 2008 at 8:39 PM

    These are not white Aryans making these remarks. These are the sentiments of some Caribbean Indians. For people to come to this DB and open their stink mouth and talk about racism is an example of the silly shyte that passes for balance in this world. Many of them are frequent visitors to the sites where these expressions are numerous, and they never pen a line of protest or indignation.

    I am gone now. I refuse to sully myself by being proximate to bigots who define anti Indian racism as exposure of the prejudice of some Indians. I thought an anti indian racist was someone who hated Indians. It seem to have morphed into a case of those who some Indians hate, or who expose examples of this hate. What a bunch unadulterated stiffed necked bigots.

  • Anonymous // February 16, 2008 at 8:43 PM

    Adrian Hinds on BFP some time ago also mentioned a guyanese website which is totally racist in their remarks against persons of African descent.

    Can’t remmeber the name of the site right now.

  • KRaman // February 17, 2008 at 2:46 AM

    Where ever blacks in majority Indians will be hardly safe Viz. Uganda, Kenya, Nigeria etc…

    If it vice versa( Indians in majority) Blacks can be rest assured being safe and wealthy.
    Viz.. Mauritius, India with multi religions.

    The truth is plain and always harsh, sadly!!!

    I welcome all Barbadians particularly racist brothers to visit India to enjoy the peace and tranquility with Ayurveda and Yoga which works for you guys, making you destressed and free from narrow mindedness.

  • Anonymous // February 17, 2008 at 2:18 PM

    Can Indians And Blacks Co-exist In Barbados?

    This is an easy question. All it takes is another question.

    Has Indian and Blacks ever co-existed (if the percentage of each group are relatively equal) in any country where both are the majority?

    If you can name a country where this has occurred, then the answer is YES.

    If you can’t name a country where both co-existed happily together under the same conditions then the answer is NO.

    I cannot think of such a country so my answer is NO.

    I am not saying it is impossible, but until it happens I will have to stay with this answer.

  • Anonymous // February 17, 2008 at 2:36 PM

    I live in the UK and there is tension between Asians and Blacks here. Not long ago there were Asian Vs Black riots/clashes in Birmingham

    If their numbers are anywhere near equal there will be problems.

    Not that this is the correct way foward, it just seems that this is the way it is.

    The Barbados situation is worrying, if the Indian numbers grow enough there will be problems.

    Dreamers can dream and hopers can hope this doesn’t happen. The reality is that history
    proves it most likely.

  • Trinired // February 18, 2008 at 2:20 PM

    One cannot speak of the Indo-Afro divide in Guyana and Trinidad in the same breath. While there are other ethnic groups in Trinidad( Portuguese; Chinese; Lebanese; “whites”) Guyana does not have this ethnic profile. there is also no racially motivated violence in Trinidad, while in Guyana it seems that this is sometimes or even often the basis for violence.
    One only needs to visit Trinidad and to look at its rainbow people to know that the so-called tension between Indo and Afro trinis exists on the political level only. The day after elections, the tension exists in Parliament.
    I am a Trinidadian and have fellow trini friends of all ethnicities and I am not unique in this respect.
    I recommend that Barbadians try to accept the beauty of racial co-existence and integration and stop seeing it as a threat.
    All countries should have reasonable immigration policies reflective of the economic reality of the country but acceptance or refusal should NEVER be on the basis of race.

  • Terrence // February 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM

    Dear all/Fellow Bajans,
    I am more than surpise to come across this topic, the lease I can advise is be humane and anti-racial.
    First of all Guyana, if not for the racial/political scenario would have been and still have the potential to be the wealthiest Caricom memberstate, more so now that they have found a vast resever of oil on the Suriname /Guyana Border. Out Economical situation in Caricom as a whole is very volitile and heavily dependent of the developed countries (lets say ‘White” since this forum is race bias). I have heard UK whites claiming if it was not for them Barbados would have been a Garbage heap. So stop critising Guyana and Trinidad for their problems, we have just reached an agreement with TT for oil and trust me on this, we must help and assist Guyana because that most likely will be our Grand children’s bread haven.

    Now About East indians and immigrants, first of all for anyone here to be critical/bias of any race in this forum is as a racisl crime as any illegal person. Secondly, since when in our human race is of being an East Indian a crime, as a black I am totally embarassed that we are sidelining our Indian brothers and sisters who were subject as slaves and punishment as our forefathers by the whites. Now we are thinking of doing what we fought the white to stop doingto us. ‘Dejavu’
    I really don’t think East Indians are in Barbados because they wanted to cause problem, they came here to avaoid the voilence in their country because the want to living decent as we do in B’dos. Behonest with yourself, both in Trinidad and Guyana the progressive ehtnic group and less lawless are the East Indians. The majority of illegal crimals caught in Barbados are of black Afro-Guyanese decents. and if you are still being honest, the are as much illegal blacks coming to Barbados as Indians.
    And as a professional in the political/journalism field, i must ask where did you guys get the information that it is East Indians who are creating the criminal acts in Guyana and Trinidad. Bury your conciouness and open your eyes, the majority are black youths. Look at India it is quickly becoming a world economic power house, look at Barack Obamma if no racial influence he will be the next american President, look at Nelson Mandela then think about Mahatma Ghandie, see the commonalities.

    If David Thompson and yourself really wants to think for the better welfare of Barbados and your children’s future, think positive. East Indian are a different culture, different religions but are as beautiful as us and should be seen as us, coloured people.
    Despite the few grimlins and racist, our through enemy is still our present master here in Barbados, that is the whites. So when the table will turn, Guyana & Trinidad may be our rescue.
    Beleive this or you have an evil mind.

    Terrence Prince Timber
    MBA African Cultural Studies UCLA, Bsc. Caribbean History & Politics UWI

  • Alicia // February 24, 2008 at 12:55 PM

    Hello,

    Lets say we send back al the East Indians to Guyana and TT (I just feel stupid even talking racist for I am not). then let the our Black brothers and sistas from guyana/TT into Barbados. Can you gurantee it will be better. I do have indian friends from Guyana, I visit them often before this barage of crimes and to tell they are the most wonderful and hospitable people I have came across. So to hear my fellow Bajans speak of east Indians like this makes me since. not just because we are fortunate to be in a more stable country we have the right choose and discriminate innocent people as Indians.
    Why don’t we look at the whites in Barbados and see who really controls here and who Barbados really belongs to?

    Very disappointed

  • Indiaprowess // February 25, 2008 at 8:06 AM

    Who is good at mugging in in US/UK you got it… the so called ‘profession’ is taken up mostly by blacks (if i have to talk the way David n co) for reasons better known to all….Easy money… and mostly who are the victims? It is Indians. Why? There is a growing feeling that indians are there to rob their jobs!!! How foolish it is…we are there to do jobs with no takers. How many were there to sit in freezing cold at Airports in midnight as cabbies providing transportaion to travellers. This is just one case … later in the day these drivers get mugged for easy money…how cruel it is!.

    But realise Indians are industrious, competent, careful in others lands not to get into indecent brawls like their fellow immigrants from Africa. Look at staticstics and then form your opinion, and not based on skin color for you are definitely racist. Caribbean indians are no different here. Lastly to think your country will be free of crime only if indians are out, is just a myth you know it… for there are no Jesus out there!!! lol

  • Indiaprowess // February 25, 2008 at 8:20 AM

    As i worked in US/UK i gave those details but dont be furious for iam living in Barbados for some time now. I wish we realise a fact that for you and me, there is still only one master – Mr.white who is ruling us even today, thru his economic strength.

    Whos money it is after all? Its all ours dude. Be it black or brown color of skin nothing to do with color of money!!! All our forefathers wealth ceased by these guys to make us their slaves for money. So how do we bear this economic slavery in our own lands!

  • Straight-2-Solutions // March 1, 2008 at 5:56 AM

    It is interesting how you ‘all start out talking about immigration but end up talking about money and who controls it. I don’t think this discussion is really about immigration at all but instead people are talking a whole bunch of rubbish to mask the fact that this discussion is mostly about distribution of resources and greed.
    I am a younger bajan who lived over seas a lot of my life. I completed my post graduate studies over seas. I returned to live in Barbados for a while and now again am currently living abroad but spend holidays in the Caribbean. I love Barbados and would love to come back, but unfortunately it can offer me nothing but beautiful sunshine, rum and parties but no decent living to raise a family.
    When considering immigration policies I don’t think race should ever come into the discussion.
    I think when it comes to immigration it is important to think about what Barbados really has to offer people in terms of resources. No matter what colour someone is, they still have to live. If any people that are coming into the country are going to put other Barbadians, (that are already barley making a living themselves) out of jobs, then I don’t see how this can be a good idea, no matter what race they are.
    Oh yes, and by the way I am I guess, what most of you would refer to as white. When living in Barbados I was very surprised at how racist people still were. Many of my white family are very very racist against blacks. But many blacks I found were also very racist against their own colour.
    What I also found difficult, was the way in which many blacks were very racist toward me before they even knew me. Many blacks automatically assumed that I was looking down on them, or that I thought that I was above them in some way.
    Blacks also assumed because I was white that I was wealthy, and that I had an easy life. This was very far from true. My family were quite often living without food and money for basic things, but we were too proud to let anyone know. I never was offered any special treatment for being white. If anything, I was looked down on for being white and not having the money to throw around.
    Around the time that I left Barbados to study, I was very sad to leave, but very glad to be given the opportunity to actually live slightly above the bread line. Now I can say I can actually save a couple of dollars at the end of a week and feel confident to be able to some day raise a family.
    When I lived in Barbados I experienced what many other young bajans- Black, white, and all other colours and denominations experience- There is a lack of resources and scarce opportunity. It saddens me to see that instead of uniting to solve this for the youth -the future of ALL of Barbados, you all are lowering yourself into racist stereotyping.
    We need to look for solutions, not waste time on hatred. Please do not lump all whites into the same negative category. And I suggest you do not do that of any race. I know many (not all) bajan whites are very difficult to like, but remember there are always exceptions to the rule.
    Youths that are White, black and all other colour and creed in Barbados face hardship if they stay on the island. If we are honest about it – it is true many whites (not all) will have better financial resources, but I know a lot of my white relatives are also struggling to survive.
    So what will be done about securing a future for our youth? What will be done to make equal opportunities for all races? I don’t know what others think but, I am not a fan of implementing “affirmative action” and I think it is insulting to any race. But if we recognise that whites hold the power then what will be done about it?
    I really would like to see more open talk in Barbados about the inequality and not just see it in blogs. I think this needs to happen if things are to change
    And surely we need to look at how we will try to solve the above problems before opening up immigration gates and increasing the population of such a tiny island?????

  • David // March 1, 2008 at 9:19 AM

    Straight-2-Solutions~thanks for your comment. You obviously feel passionately about the issue. Believe it or not we feel the same way. They will be commenters who will go over the line but that is understandable when discussing an issue such as this one. Issues of race, immigration, ethnicity will always heat the blood.

    The bottomline which we will reiterate here is the the importance for a small island like Barbados with limited resources to regulate its borders, have a planned approach to immigration and study and plan how the impact of ethnic groups indo-Guyanese and others will have on our society and put measures in position to insure tensions are proactively managed.

  • JC // March 5, 2008 at 4:03 PM

    Listen to me all those people who are talkin about racism and blah gettin me sick. Stop it. And dont tell me no foolishness bout how we bajans went this place and de nex and fit in. We have to protect what is ours. Have u forgotten that most bajans who have gone away and struggled, come back when they have retired and dont forget send back their money and invest in their country. PLEASE STOP THIS NONSENSE TALK

  • Straight talk // March 5, 2008 at 6:53 PM

    Thanks JC for underlining the point I am making.

    Legally entitled Guyanese come here, struggle and when they have made some hard-earned savings go back to Guyana, and invest in their ravaged country.

    Illegal immigrants , whatever their nationality, should be sought out and sent home.

    PLEASE STOP THIS NONSENSE TALK

  • RANDY BRIDGEMAN // March 5, 2008 at 9:01 PM

    This new government has to put its foot down, to use the well-known phrase. The appropriate person(s) from the gov’t, immigration and the police departments ought to have a confab ASAP. They should come to some coherent, practical policy regarding Guyanese immigrants living or desiring to migrate to our beloved Barbados.

    Those that are living in B’dos illegally ought to be rounded up and sent packing. Caricom guidelines aside, we also need to have a quota system so that overcrowding doesn’t go north. B’dos, like others, is a sovereign nation. Nobody should be able to just hop on a plane, touch down at GAIA and live here.

    I’ve found that Indians are very clannish and look down on people of African ancestry. They only mix when its convenient for themselves. It’s not genuine at all. They pretend that we’re one people, but the wise will know it’s just because they want or are receiving some benefit that this superficial mingling is taking place.

    Bajans should not sit idly by and watch their country go the route of T & T or Guyana in terms of relations between the majority Blacks and Indians. That’s why a proactive stand ought to be taken pronto. It would be foolhardy and a great detriment to our beloved B’dos if we react after the Indian population problem gets out of control. When the horse is out of the stable, it’s difficult if not impossible to get it back in.

    SPEAK UP, PROUD BAJANS!!

  • Indohate // March 6, 2008 at 5:17 PM

    Indians destroys countries check Trinidad Guyana & their homeland India.Suicide bombers and such.Indians are intrinsically racist.Countries suffer because indians do not spend money they horde money.It is an extremely selfish race.They do not buy food,neither clothes nor seek entertainment in abundance.As a result government coffers suffer.This is one of the reason that Guyana and Trinidad two of naturally richest caribbean countries are two of more underdeveloped and backward states in the region.I am very concern with the high influx of Indo -Guyanese into Barbados and a stringent immigration policy must be intoduce as a matter of urgency.We are importing a racist problem that exists in those two Caribbean States into Barbados. I say get out all the racist wicked bad smelling slimy Indo-Guyanese now.

  • Clairmont Featherstone // March 7, 2008 at 2:01 PM

    I can see with Barbadians with respect to their position on Guyanese, especially those of indo Guyanese decent; and here make the following observation: I sincerely feel that the problems
    encountered with Indians has a lot to do with culture as we shall see.Many years ago I had a contract to conduct some training in Barbados, and was asked by an Indian national why my people that being indo Guyanese are so difficult to deal with.I was told that there was a certain indo Guyanese family who had recently moved to Barbados, and took to abusing Barbadians of all races,even those from India.I then asked the Indian national what she felt was responsible for that kind of behaviour and she replied , you tell me they are your peolpe! though you do not look like them they are yours and not mine.

  • Clairmont Featherstone // March 7, 2008 at 3:03 PM

    Not so long ago I had some business with a young woman in India who was very kind and efficient, not very long after she became dishonest and some what rude.I told her that I would have non of it and she said that she was no little coolie girl.I went to the Indian High Commission and lodged a complaint and had our High Commissioner in India pay her a visit.
    Once she learnt that we down her could get to her even there she got herself together.I feel culture is at work here.

  • Vision // March 22, 2008 at 7:39 PM

    Will some one comment on the Ido Guyanese who was deorted last week for pushing a black bajan school girl out of his store in bridgetown.

    He was hear illegally but yet able to set up store etc.

    Is this a sign of things to come in Barbados? Are there racial undertones that we are too proud to admit are in our society.

    Had this situation happen any where in the world, some group or person would be looking into this matter.

    Barbados has inherited the same problems that the black and indians in Guyana have and are too proud to admit that the blacks in Barbados are becoming as second class citizens in their oun country by illegal and legal indians from Guyana.

    ALL THE COMMENTS I AM READING, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT BECAUSE GUYANESE HAVE LEFT GUYANA THAT THEY HAVE LEFT THEY CULTURE, RACISM AND ALL THESE OTHER ILLS IN GUYANA. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, THEY HAVE BROUGHT THEM HEAR TO BARBADOS WITH THEM AND THEY ARE GETTING HELP FROM OTHER INDIANS LIVING IN BARBADOS.

    READ THE NATION NEWS, EITHER TUESDAY OR WEDNESDAY PAPAER, COURT PAGE. AND SEE THE STORY.

    WE NEED TO STOP HIDING AND STEP OUT FOR OUR CHILDREN OF TOMORROW.

    BARBADOS IS UNDER A RACIST ATTACK.

  • David // March 22, 2008 at 7:43 PM

    Vision you need to relax. The person based on our recollection came to Barbados from Grenada. How you making the connection to Guyana has us puzzled.

  • Anonymous // March 22, 2008 at 9:49 PM

    Grenada – Guyana – same difference.

    That’s how indians react to persons of african descent all over the world.

    I hope some of you not just reading these posts but speaking to your government M.P.s about sending home these guyanese.

  • Vision // March 30, 2008 at 4:37 AM

    David, you need to check your facts and read the news. He is a Guyanese who migrated to Grenada. He told the court that he was in Barbados illegally because since hericane Ivan things were not working out in Grenada.

    I suspect that you are a Guynese, because even if he was from Grenada or where ever, he is still an Indian.

    I am surprise that you are not concerned about the incident, what if its was your daughter or it was a white man pushing a black girl out of his store.

  • Vision // March 30, 2008 at 4:46 AM

    David, when you speak of our recollection who are you representing. I thought that the issue hear is can INDIANS AND BLACKS CO-EXIXT IN BARBADOS.

    The fact that you are mistaken about this man being and inidain guyanese and you missed that, and that because you thought he was from Grenada does not make him Indian, I am starting to wonder how much research or facts are in your comments. We need serious people dealing with these serious issues.

  • Vision // March 30, 2008 at 4:55 AM

    Terrance.

    The problem that black people are having with embracing Indians as black or as our own is that Indaians do not see themselves are BLACK, they really believe that compared to blacks, they are white.

  • Anonymous // March 30, 2008 at 10:29 AM

    David & others

    Did you notice that yet again indian guyanese nationals were caught and arrested bringing in 50 pounds of cocaine in this country?

    50 pounds David,can you tell me how much the street value is of that?

    Note,this cocaine is not destined for guyanese indian children,but our black boys and girls who are already facing enormous roadblocks – now having to contend with this evil.

    DAVID THOMPSON WHAT THE **@##** ARE YOU DOING ABOUT THESE ***** GUYANESE SCUM IN OUR COUNTRY?

    If you don’t deal with this you will get vote out,so you better start publicly addressing the problem – NOW!

    A word to the wise is enough.

    Just to add,remember 2 years ago the LARGEST DRUG HAUL in the HISTORY of Barbados was again brought in by 4 guyanese indians working with 2 bajan scumbags.

    This situation is verrrrry worrying.

  • Negroman // March 31, 2008 at 4:46 PM

    I totally agree that David Thompson & his administration must deal with this Indian -guyanese situation now.I voted for his party eventhough the party was unwilling & scare to deal with the issue.As a matter of fact one of they successful candidates told me his party is afraid to deal with the illlegal guyanese problem because the guyanese might have a large vote and can determine the outcome of the general elections.Can you believe that nonsense.
    No wonder the guyanese believe that they could do anything in Barbados and get away with it including breaking our immigration laws and such like.I believe not one politician from any of the political parties has the courage and guts to tackle the illegal immigrationn issue.Not one of them.All are a bunch of jokers.There is little hope that this illigal immigration issue will be tackele in any meaningful way that will benefit us Barbadians.I beleieve we must continue to talk about it on these blogs,continue to bombard the call in programmes and stir up emotion in Barbados and let our leaders know that we are serious and this matter must be address as matter of urgency.
    This country is being taken from us and there is little or nothing that our leaders will do to address the situation.Therefore,we must agitate and so be it violate to get our message across.
    We black are under seige in Barbados and we are on the road to be like Guyana.In the not to distance future we might need some “Fineman” Rawlins in Barbados to protect and fight for the beseige black Barbadians who will be under attack from those racist wicked indo-guyanese.It has started already with the incidence with man pushing the school child out the store and firing of the workers at the Royal Shop.
    I fear for Blacks in Barbados.

  • Negroman // May 6, 2008 at 4:40 PM

    If white people, indians & chinese stop being soon selffish and share and allow some of the resources of the world to be enjoy by black people there will be no reason for black people to steal or murder.Killa you ever understand the true reason for crime.Do you think people want to live a lfe of crime.Killa be a deep thinker and stop being so simplistic in your argument.
    Killa answer these questions.Who are the most criminals in China?Who are the most people in jails in Pakistan,India,Iran,Irag & Afganistan?Who are the people in jails in Germany,Finland,Spain,Ireland and other European countries?
    I hope you are understanding the point I am trying to make.
    Killa wise up.

  • confussion // May 30, 2008 at 11:03 PM

    stop racism now it would only lead to more killing in our world pray is the answer Mahatma Gandhi [1869-1948 ] is famous for his peaceful protests to gain India’s independence from british rule.less well-known is his earlier work in south Africa to remove racial discrimination against Indians in 1893 he gave up his legal practice in bombay ,India, to work one year for a lawyer in south Africa. Traveling on afirst-class ticket by train when he arrived, Gandhi was ordered to leave the car because colored people were not allowed in first class .He refused and was put out of the train on a freezing night. What i am trying to say is blacks against blacks not indians . The tutsi and Hutu are the two largest ethnic groups in central africa countries of Rwanda and Burrundi. they have fought one another for over 500 years ,since the tutsi came into the area from Ethiopia in the 15th century .The tutsis are tall people who have mostly tended cattle, while the Hutu are traditionally farmers . An unsuccessful Hutu rebellion in Burundi in 1972 left 160,000 people dead ,and three-years ethnic conflict beginging in 19193 kill another 150,000 people . one of the worst ethnic massacres in history occurred in 1994 in Rwanda ,when more than 500,ooo tusi people were killed by Hutu militias.This came after the Hutu president was killed that year in a suspicious plane crash. Themass killings forced two million Tutsis to become refugees in Zaire now Congo, where many died of starvation and disease. in 1996 a moderate hutu became Rwanda’s president,and most refugees returned to their farms,but found many of them occupied by Hutu. So you see why started a racism war now why in the name of God stop it we have to pray for the world God bless you all i am a mix guyanese

  • Collie Mon // June 17, 2008 at 10:57 AM

    Why d ass yuh hav tuh go n make such article like deez? Guyana n Trinidad have their problems yeah, But barbados is not like the 2 its alot more peaceful there is no tension everyone is happy.Its articles like this that have no meaning ther is no problem so why write about about the possibility of one unless you want it to happen. the reason why guyana is in its state is because there is a small amount of people of both groups who dont want to look for decent work and look to rob and sell drugs for a living. Those people is who mek tha country look bad but if yuh ask around no one want violence they juss wan to liv in peace. Yuh may lik wah yuh see in guyana n trinidad wit all dem killing but next ting yuh kno yuh da one who guh be staring down de barrel n it nawh always black man who pull d trigga.

  • JAMAICAN // July 24, 2009 at 2:58 AM

    I think this is informative but crazy. It now makes sense why when I meet indians with a familiar accent and I ask them where they are from they say “South America” I have learned that that means they are from Guyana. Who the heck says “South America” for where you are from. When I ask a Brazilian where he is from, he quickly says “Brazil” -very interesting to learn here that it is because they feel that saying that they are from Guyana may lead people to think that they are black!! Incredible! Thank God for Jamaica. In Jamaica Indians, blacks and chinese live together in harmony. Indians marry indians or indians marry blacks or indians marry chinese!! We ALL cook with curry powder, we ALL love roti. An indian person from Jamaica sees himself as just Jamaican period. Indians and Blacks from Guyana, you should really take a leaf from the indians and blacks in Jamaica-naively and simply I encourage you to love each other-date each other and embrace your differences.

  • Partly // July 24, 2009 at 8:58 AM

    I found out that indian people can be quite racist in Barbados a long time ago.

    It was a nice day up in Fairley Hill and we drove up there; my very blonde and white boyfriend, my black bajan aunt and me , the mixed.
    That day I had a long,exotic dress on, and had put a heavy kajal around my eyes, and could maybe be taken for an asian(indian) by some people, (something I am not at all).
    I walked a little bit on my own around while the other two bought some beverages, and a indian man with a little boy passed me up and was quite “interested”
    He asked among other things quite intensely if i was there on my own or had a boyfriend.
    I was about to answer with a smile, when my friend and aunt turned up just behind us.
    A bit shuttered he said; “are YOU together with THOSE people?”, like they were leprans or something.
    And I turned round to him again and assured; SURE I AM !ITS MY AUNT AND MY MAN!
    Then he just walked off, without saying anything more.
    He probably didn`t like the mixed party I was a part of….

  • The Scout // July 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM

    Partly
    I know the feeling oh too well. i was at an official indian function in guyana and was introduced to an executive indian woman, just for formality. she was shaking other indians hand but just said hello to me. I’ve always been taught not to extend my hand unless the other person extended theirs, she did extend her but in the direction of the person next to me while calling their name. I felt slighted and as soon as the official matter was completed, I left. The person who was host of the function, called me at my hotel room next morning and apologised. I could give you many many incedences with these indo-guyanese but it is not worth it. That’s why I’m so adament that we should not encourage them in barbados. Indians and the indo- guyanese in particular, are VERY predudice, they think they are a cut above the rest. The other think they are good at is smiling in your face and ready to kill you at the same time.

  • Themis // July 24, 2009 at 11:51 AM

    All of them, Scout? Your apparently and strangely numerous encounters with racist Indians may have coloured your opinion, but character is not a matter of erthnicity. What, if I may ask, is the bad characteristic that is common to all black people?

  • BenevolentCharma // October 7, 2009 at 4:50 PM

    It is important that Barbadian Black/creoles to know that Indians are also black. The Dravidian black who became the native indigenous of India came from ancient Ethiopia(Africa) in prehistoric time.They moved to Oman and Iran to found the Elamit empire known in the bible,They moved to south India trough a long migration trough south of iran,pakistan and from the seas to Srilanka island and south india, they moved to north india.And still today the Tamil of srilanka are considereted modern Elamit and are fighting to rebuild their ancient nation.In iran their population were completely wipeout or assimilated by light skin Persian who replace them in India.Those same Persian(Aryana) white skin invaded north of India 3 thousand years later.They create a cast system that prolonged racism for thousand of years to come and still today dark skin Indian(called Dravidian) suffer from that oppression.Indians are trying t find them self in the Caribbean but nobody understand them.There is two category of Indian, the Dravidian and the Aryan.Dravidian want peace and are willing to live well with blacks but the Aryans(lighter skin) are the one who despite blacks the most.Aryans come mostly from Punjab(north region of india), Sikhs are also from that region.Those Indian ethnic are the one who cause trouble with the blacks, not the darker one.live them in peace.

  • Ruel Daniels // October 7, 2009 at 6:19 PM

    Benevolentcharma it is more important for the Indians who came to the West Indies as Dravidians, and when they saw black people decided that they would become Brahmins to know than it is for blacks in ant part of world. We know we were the first humans to walk the face of the earth, and that all other human groups are offshoots of our migratory experiences. We do not need to be reminded about that. In addition, we do not need to waste our time persuading people to become conscious of their origin. Let them be what they want to be, and to hell with that.

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