Last week the BU family engaged in a spirited discussion on the blog post titled Beware Of Cervical Cancer Vaccine Gardasil! The discussion tossed up an interesting issue that the preponderance of vaccines being administered to our children maybe the cause of many maladies which appear to be infesting our communities. One example which ROK a BU family member opined was to reference that the high levels of mercury in vaccines maybe directly responsible for an alarming rise in Asthma, Autism and other sicknesses.
Although Barbados has enjoyed an acceptably high level of healthcare over the years, there has been growing concern in some quarters in recent times about our healthcare system. Should we have to say that the concern transcends political lines? Barbadians have been more than alarm at visible levels of mismanagement within our healthcare system at the QEH, polyclinics, medical associations and even the drug sector…
We want to thank Roosevelt O. King (ROK) for consenting to do the grunt work on the suggestion by the BU letter, family to lobby stakeholder health organizations on this matter. The objective is to encourage them via a to use their offices to agitate for quantitative and qualitative work to be done to ascertain the effect vaccinations being delivered to our children today are having on their health now and later on in life.
The importance of the output of this study is two fold:
- The health of our young people is linked to the health of our nation which has significant implication for national productivity.
- The financial costs to our small economy to support our current healthcare system is already high. To experience an increase in the level of ailments would place our treasury under enormous pressure.
BU family members are asked to review the letter which was drafted by Roosevelt King, who is affiliated to the Non-Govermental Organization BANGO. All suggestions will be considered to ensure that the concerns of BU family members are fairly reflected in the document. If some family members feel uncomfortable submitting their views in the comments section you have the choice of anonymously doing so via the Feedback Page or Email.
147 responses so far ↓
David // August 31, 2008 at 11:05 AM
@ROK
Please remove the the from the email address on you have on file for BU.
Thanks
J // August 31, 2008 at 1:25 PM
But we already know what will happen if we reduce vaccination or if we make vaccination voluntary. MANY, MANY CHILDREN WILL DIE.
Too often we do not study our history. Please tell Roosvelt King and others that they should go to the public library and see what the infant mortality rate was in Barbados in 1910, 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000. The data is already there. It is free for anyone who chooses to look at it. Barbados presently enjoys the lowest infant mortality rate that it has had in its entire history. Some of the good health of most of our children is due to clean water, and some is due to better education and better food, but much of it is due to vaccination and to the HEROIC work done by Dame Nita and other public health nurses. I cannot believe that either ROK or BU would seek to undo the work of these NATIONAL HEROINES.
When my daughter was studying history at A’Level in 1998 -2000 she was required to do a research paper on Barbados in the period of the 1930’s. Both she and I were shocked to discover that Barbados’ infant mortality in 1938 was 220 infant deaths for every 1,000 live births (that rate is significantly worse that Haiti’s is today) Today Barbados’ infant mortality rate is about 14 deaths to every 1,000 births. Dear BU and ROK do you really want to take Barbados back to those bad, bad, bad, bad times? I have a collegue who told me that her grandmother gave birth to 13 children in the early part of the 20th century and that 1 child, ONE OUT OF THIRTEEN survived to adulthood. I think that both BU and Roosevelt are being irresponsible. I forgive BU because you are evidently still very, very young, but Roosevelt is old enough – way, way old enough- to know better.
If we want to see what will happen if we reduce or eliminate compulsory vacciniation we only need to go to Haiti. If we want to see what happens in a well administered free and compulsory vaccination program we only need to go to Cuba (or to the very best neighbourhoods in the U.S/U.K./Canada where the infant mortality rate is about 6 deaths for every 1,000 births) Or read the data provided freely by the UN Human Development Index. Do we really want to see Barbados at the bottom of that chart? Do we understand the suffering of young parents who have to bury a dozen of their babies?
It is just plain WRONG of BU and ROK to try to mislead people who are younger, poorer and less well educated that we are. We should be working hard to reduce the infant mortality rate from where it is at 14 to about 7 or less.
Look don’t get my head hot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ROK // August 31, 2008 at 2:23 PM
@J,
You are getting overly anxious at this when there is no need to be. All we are asking is to examine and look and see.
The facts are that in Europe and in USA, cases have come to the court and to health authorities and on the evidence found that some diseases are attributable to vaccinations. Victims have been compensated too.
The other thing is that you cannot deny that we have a lot of sicknesses among us (in this generation) which are unexpectedly on the rise. Are these freaks of nature or are we doing something that is causing it to happen to us?
We suggest that as a nation, we should seek to find out exactly what is happening to this generation and for sure the generation to come will be worse. We owe it to our children. They are growing weaker by day! Running to the doctor every five minutes!
See the children lined up at the pediatric clinics and doctors offices. Like we back in the 1930s?? but the fact is that modern medicine can deal with some of these diseases just as they are dealing with the side effects like asthma and other respiratory diseases and allergies, etc.
I have a friend who is so allergic that he can’t eat anything without getting sick or rash or other things come out on his skin. I have another friend that told me she ended up in a wheel chair because of a vaccine she had when she was going to Africa.
I had two friends who recently ended up in hospital in comas which they never came out of (one was Terry Mayers). I have a lot of friends who can’t walk into dusty areas without violent reactions.
In the media in recent times, children like we never seen before with all kinds of conditions, trying to raise money from the public to deal with all kinds of deformities that we can’t deal with in Barbados.
Why should we not try to find out what is happening? We have part of our population that is vaccinated and part that is not. There is where scientific investigations can start.
By no stretch of the imagination can I say from here that we should stop vaccinating children altogether but we should seek to find out what diseases have been elimated and therefore where the vaccine is not necessary.
We should also look to see what diseases are no longer a threat and can be treated effectively if they arise even if it is going back to vaccinating. We should also look to see which children cannot withstand the vaccinations or stand a good chance of succumbing to the side effects and reactions of vaccinations.
I do not think that is an unreasonable move because given the large cross section of the population suffering from certain ailments, the one thing in common beside the water is vaccinations. Maybe we should examine the water instead?
Already we are an aging society. Don’t tell me that crime killing off the workforce? That ain’t true. What is the percentage of the workforce that is dying? What percentage is laid up at any one time? How many laid up that don’t get back to work and how many just dropping down dead?
As we move towards a more globalised world where we as citizens have to be more competitive and where more and more productivity and efficiency is the hallmark of doing business, I sincerely hope that commonsense prevails and that we as a nation do what it takes to ensure that we can sustain global impacts.
David // August 31, 2008 at 2:53 PM
@J
Like ROK suggested you need to understand that we are asking for research to be done. Our education would have taught us to ask questions. You seem happy to continue making decisions FOREVER based on the status quo?
If research is done it may will support maintaining the status quo but what if the current practice of administering our vaccination program has side effects which can be managed?
J // August 31, 2008 at 3:13 PM
I am all in favour of asking questions. I am all in favour of research. But as sure as the sun rises in the East all a suspension of compulsory vaccination will do is KILL Barbadian babies. I am NOT in favour of having Barbadian babies DIE, while we research what has already been widely researched.
I CANNOT support you and ROK in your quest. I cannot sacrifice the life of my neighbour’s children.
Your proposal reminds me of what has been happening in South Africa. While the President believes that AIDS is not caused by HIV and asks for more research people DIE. HIV does cause AIDS and countries like Barbados which have accepted that status quo, and created anti HIV/AIDS programs which acknowledges this status quo has kept out mortality rate well below 5% while in South Africa it is over 15%
BU and ROK may wish to have your children die prematurely (or maybe ROK’s children and grandchildren are all safely grown up; maybe BU has no children). I do not wish my children to die prematurely.
No I don’t believe in making sport with other people’s lives.
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 3:37 PM
ROK
You say that one cannot deny that we have a lot of sicknesses among us (in this generation) which are unexpectedly on the rise. WHAT AGE GROUP ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? The children?
With respect to the children growing weaker by day and running to the doctor every five minutes
IS IT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PLAYING OUTSIDE AS WE USED TO DO?
Re I have a friend who is so allergic that he can’t eat anything without getting sick or rash or other things come out on his skin.
DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH THE PACKAGED FOODS WE EAT FULL OF GLUTAMATE, FUMARATE SUCCINATE ETC
Re the fact is that modern medicine can deal with some of these diseases just as they are dealing with the side effects like asthma and other respiratory diseases and allergies, etc.
ARE YOU SAYING THAT ASTHMA AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES AND ALLERGIES ARE SIDE EFFECTS OF VACCINATIONS?
I have another friend that told me she ended up in a wheel chair because of a vaccine she had when she was going to Africa.
THIS SEEMS TO BE AN ISOLATED INCIDENT, WOULD YOU SAY?
I had two friends who recently ended up in hospital in comas which they never came out of (one was Terry Mayers). I have a lot of friends who can’t walk into dusty areas without violent reactions.
ARE YOU SAYING THAT THESE FOLK’S ATOPY IS DUE SOLELY TO VACCINATIONS
Re Maybe we should examine the water instead?
PERSONNEL FROM THE PUBLIC HEALTH INSPECTORATE COLLECT RANDOM SAMPLES FROM SEVERAL AREAS EVERY WEEK FOR EXAMINATION FOR COLIFORMS ETC PERHAPS CHEMICAL EXAMINATION SHOULD BE CARRIEED OUT IN ADDITION..
ROK // August 31, 2008 at 3:45 PM
If you would calm down and reflect you would see that you are being too emotional. Vaccinations will not stop while research is going on. Nothing should happen until there is a conclusion and I am risking to bet that the conclusion will ask for more research before anything is done.
Furthermore, this is a win-win situation as we are saying let people opt so that those with fears can have them allayed.
J // August 31, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Dear GP:
I am going to take a little Sunday afternoon rest. I’ll leave you to find the good fight. Thanks
David // August 31, 2008 at 3:46 PM
@GP
Are you retreating from your previous positions? Are you positing that we should ask you to draft a document to be sent to stakeholders who manage our water supply? LOL
J please try to relax. All that is being asked for is some research based on some observables supported by some bare bones research.
Whats the harm?
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 3:48 PM
ROK
Im trying to get your post in context.
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 3:55 PM
No I am not reversing my position at all.
I just want to get a few things clear before we can make a meaningful input into ROK’s response to J thats all.
The Public Health Inspectors I know tested the water for coliform bacteria 30 years ago. I honestly dont know if they test for chemicals in the water now.
In the last 30 years we know that we have been using more and more pesticides than formerly.
If these cheminals are leaching into our water supply they are more likely to be a cause of atopic illnesses, because of thier prolonged exposure.
I have for a while been concerned at the use of malate, fumarate, succinate etc as preservatives in a lot of packaged foods that we commonly use today, and wonder what their long term effect might be.
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 4:00 PM
When I read of the Terry Mayers situation, I wondered what on earth he was exposed to that his bronchial area could reach that degree of hyper activity that he should end up in coma in ICU.
I wonder too what was revealed in the CPC on this case. And what information has been passed on to the populace.
ROK // August 31, 2008 at 4:12 PM
@GP,
You raised some good points which I cannot answer. The medical profession is not united on this either.
You said: “IS IT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PLAYING OUTSIDE AS WE USED TO DO?”
Maybe so and I am sure the research will address that. It should also address nutrition because I am sure this is not just one thing alone but a multiplicity of factors which we should seek to investigate. We must maintain good health.
You said: “DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH THE PACKAGED FOODS WE EAT FULL OF GLUTAMATE, FUMARATE SUCCINATE ETC ”
No, natural fruits and vegetables, rice, etc. He can’t eat pudding & souse. He can’t eat mangoes. He can’t drink lemonade. I can’t understand how the man survives??
You said: “ARE YOU SAYING THAT ASTHMA AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES AND ALLERGIES ARE SIDE EFFECTS OF VACCINATIONS?”
That is what the research in New Zealand revealed. Two studies were done; one involving 1500 persons and another with 30,000. Will send these links in a later post when I re-locate them.
You said: “THIS SEEMS TO BE AN ISOLATED INCIDENT, WOULD YOU SAY?”
It is not the first I have heard of, but as isolated as you think it is, how about if it happened to you?
You said: “ARE YOU SAYING THAT THESE FOLK’S ATOPY IS DUE SOLELY TO VACCINATIONS”
Don’t know, do you?
You said: “PERSONNEL FROM THE PUBLIC HEALTH INSPECTORATE COLLECT RANDOM SAMPLES FROM SEVERAL AREAS EVERY WEEK FOR EXAMINATION FOR COLIFORMS ETC PERHAPS CHEMICAL EXAMINATION SHOULD BE CARRIEED OUT IN ADDITION..”
Thanks for this information so we can eliminate the water. Are there any further suggestions as to what we should examine besides vaccinations?
ROK // August 31, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Check also Ashaki Browne who was in a similar coma and died two Thursdays ago. Burying Tuesday I think.
David // August 31, 2008 at 4:32 PM
One of the points which Ian Walcott made before he was shown the door by the BU family is the fact that as a society claiming a best in class education how very little use is made of research to drive decision making in Barbados.
Why after educating ourselves to the highest level we would resist using the methods which that education provides us that can accurately search out truths?
ROK // August 31, 2008 at 4:36 PM
GP,
My last comment was also meant for you.
You said: “If these cheminals are leaching into our water supply they are more likely to be a cause of atopic illnesses, because of thier prolonged exposure.”
I am hoping for some input and the real and serious question is what can we do and where can we look? I have not submitted anything anywhere except here. So if I have it wrong, make an input.
As a matter of fact, what I submitted and what David posted was supposed to be a first draft and I was hoping that with inputs from others we could have made it a neutral document to include the concerns you raised.
You can see that the document is not complete. It does not have a conclusion and all of it can do with expansion to ask a practical, scientific question.
It is not set in stone and it certainly needs inputs, so can we agree to build a document that addresses the multiplicity of concerns?
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 4:45 PM
ROK
I think you definitely have to check the water for pesticides, especially those that tend to have a lot of nucleophile moieties in thier structures.
Per haps you can particularly have samples taken in areas where you think the leaching into the water table is more likely.
Is thier an association with chemicals used on golf greens.
What similarities are there between Mr Browne’s death and that of Mr Mayers besides coma and asthma.
Also I think that you should probably collect info on say the 50 most common chemicals used in our food packages and cosmetics, and include them in your questionaires.
I know that fumarate glutamate etc which are used in these preservatives might be deemed safe since they occur naturally in the body in the Krebs cycle, but I have long wondered if they are indeed safe in that whereas these chemicals are converted to one another in the Kreb’s cycle, they probably do not hang around in the cells long enough as to acculmulate in the concentrations administered in food preservation.
Perhaps your reserach should begin my a mass testing to ascertain which members of the community are atopic and thus susceptible to asthma and other atopic illnesses, and those who are not.
This might go along way in your analysis.
Some folk believe that generations who played in the dirt outside etc got a protective eosinophilia, whereas in developed countries there is an increase in children who don’t . Some believe that this might be a cause for the increasing atopy.
You said that research in New Zealand revealed that there is a link of vaccines and asthma. Can you say which ones? Also it might be interesting to compare the vehicle used in the preparations in those vaccines with what is used by us, if any. Often the vehicle is the problem rather than the active ingredient.
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 5:02 PM
With respect to asthmatics!
I grew up in the days when we used aminophyline IV push and IV steroids for rescue. That was the most dramatic thing you could see in treating any patient.
Of course we didnt have the beta agonists or the anti leukotines et then. Because the possible side effects of aminophyline is serious (although I have never seen them in any one) we are more sophisticated today.
In the 80’s I used to give my patients at a certain clinic aminophyline suppositories to use as thier first line attack for rescue, since the blood levels dont get as high as when given IV.
My asthmatic patients never returned to me wheezing ever. Instead they came only for the suppositories, and proclaimed that when they used the suppositories they did not have to go to hospital for treatment.
But low and behold the Director of the drug service unilaterally took this preparation of the drug formulary citing that rectal absorption of drugs are irregular.
ROK perhaps this is an interesting issue that can be raised in your research. and an issue that asthmatics should look into.
I am not at home and I dont know much about air pollution etc. And whereas I dont think that vaccines is the big issue in causing asthma in Bim, I really can not understand why two men will develop such hyperirritability in thier airways that they go into coma.
I assume that these imtelligent guys carried thier rescue inhalers with them at all times.
cherry2enpowered // August 31, 2008 at 6:27 PM
ATTENTION! MERCURY——- SECOND MOST DEADLY TOXIC SUBSTANCE ON EARTH AFTER PLUTONIUM.
Ingredients found in vaccines [ will fall into catergories like preservatives, additives, adjuvants and other substances] are:
gelatin proteins
egg proteins
thimerosal——a compound mercury[ ethylmercury]
various types of sugars
amino acids
aluminum compounds———researchers have found that too much alum can adversely affect the nervous system. Canada sometime back found high levels of alum in baby formula. Higher levels than adult milk.
antibiotics
formaldehyde———found in nail polish
yeast proteins
Widely used before 2000, thimerosal has been the center of controversy for some years now. Some parents of autistic children believe that the mercury contained in the preservative is responsible for their children’s autism.
In 1999, the U.S Food and Drug Administration (FDA) concluded that children who were vaccinated according to the recommended childhood immunization schedule could be exposed to levels of mercury from the thimerosal contained in those vaccines that were higher than the maximum levels considered safe by the FDA.
In response, the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) asked vaccine manufacturers to remove thimerosal from vaccines. That move, not surprisingly, concerned many parents who wondered if the preservative was being removed because it was harmful.
http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/healthday/070926/kids-vaccine-ingredient-not-likely-linked-to-neurological-problems.htm
How do we know for sure that thimerosal is completly removed from overseas shipments of vaccines?
Me, I don’t have a problem with vaccinations. I have a problem with the increasing doses given to today’s children, weak immune systems and sicker children. In my day if I had four shots, I had enough. Not a smallpox, chicken pox, measels, polio as a matter of fact there were four of us and none of had any childhood ailments. There were sick kids in our day but not as sickly as the kids of today. Which brings me two conclusions:
1/ certain ingredients were not present in vaccines back then or
2/ the % levels have increased.
The Psalmist said …..”I am fearfully and wonderfully made.” psalm 139:14
Our Creator designed the human bodybody with its own immune system but today the increasing numerous shots given, not only weaken our immune systems [our children that is] but every ’sniff’ passing their way gotta be treated by vaccines/medications just because their bodies are strong enough to fight it off. Compounded by the fact of a wordwide hacket job of discrediting the relevance of vitimins to one’s body [a total reversal of what I was taught during school days] plus the junk parents feed their kids on. You know how sad it is to see so many five & six yr olds stock up medication?
THE COLD HARD FACTS ARE THESE: THE PHARMACEUTICALS COMPANIES IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN & MAXIMIZE INCREASING BILLION DOLLAR PROFITS KNOW OF THE POTENTIAL GOLD MINE IN KEEPING CHILDREN AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE HOOK ON MEDICATIONS BY RECOMMENDING INCREASING VACCINES SHOTS THAT HAVE PRODUCED MORE SIDE EFFECTS THAN IN ANY OTHER TIME IN OUR HISTORY SINCE ITS INTRODUCTION YET CHILDREN ARE WORSE OFF THAN EVER BEFORE AND BECAUSE OF THIS ITS SALES OF CHILDREN’S MEDICATION WILL CONTINUE TO INCREASE INTO ADULTHOOD AND DEATH ESPECIALLY IF THE PROBLEM IS IRREVERSIBLE.
Please indulge me a bit longer while I saw you the similarities between mercury poisioning and autism.
Summary Comparison of Characteristics
of Autism & Mercury Poisoning
#Speech, Language & Hearing Deficits
Mercury Poisoning /Autism
Loss of speech, failure to develop speech/Delayed language, failure to develop speech
Dysarthria; articulation problems /Dysarthria; articulation problems
Speech comprehension deficits /Speech comprehension deficits
Verbalizing & word retrieval problems /Echolalia; word use & pragmatic errors
Sound sensitivity /Sound sensitivity
Hearing loss; deafness in very high doses /Mild to profound hearing loss
Poor performance on language IQ tests /Poor performance on verbal IQ tests
#Sensory Abnormalities
Mercury Poisoning /Autism
Abnormal sensation in mouth & extremities /Abnormal sensation in mouth & extremities
Sound sensitivity /Sound sensitivity
Abnormal touch sensations; touch aversion /Abnormal touch sensations; touch aversion
Vestibular abnormalities /Vestibular abnormalities
#Motor Disorders
Mercury Poisoning /Autism
Involuntary jerking movements – arm flapping, ankle jerks, myoclonal jerks, choreiform movements, circling, rocking /Stereotyped movements – arm flapping, jumping, circling, spinning, rocking; myoclonal jerks; choreiform movements
Deficits in eye-hand coordination; limb apraxia; intention tremors/ Poor eye-hand coordination; limb apraxia; problems with intentional movements
Gait impairment; ataxia – from incoordination & clumsiness to inability to walk, stand, or sit; loss of motor control /Abnormal gait and posture, clumsiness and incoordination; difficulties sitting, lying, crawling, and walking
Difficulty in chewing or swallowing /Difficulty chewing or swallowing
Unusual postures; toe walking /Unusual postures; toe walking
#Cognitive Impairments
Mercury Poisoning /Autism
Borderline intelligence, mental retardation – some cases reversible /Borderline intelligence, mental retardation – sometimes “recovered”
Poor concentration, attention, response inhibition /Poor concentration, attention, shifting attention
Uneven performance on IQ subtests /Uneven performance on IQ subtests
Verbal IQ higher than performance IQ /Verbal IQ higher than performance IQ
Poor short term, verbal, & auditory memory /Poor short term, auditory & verbal memory
Poor visual and perceptual motor skills, impairment in simple reaction time /Poor visual and perceptual motor skills, lower performance on timed tests
Difficulty carrying out complex commands /Difficulty carrying out multiple commands
Word-comprehension difficulties /Word-comprehension difficulties
Deficits in understanding abstract ideas & symbolism; degeneration of higher mental powers /Deficits in abstract thinking & symbolism, understanding other’s mental states, sequencing, planning & organizing
#Unusual Behaviors
Mercury Poisoning Autism
Stereotyped sniffing (rats) /Stereotyped, repetitive behaviors
ADHD traits /ADHD traits
Agitation, unprovoked crying, grimacing, staring spells /Agitation, unprovoked crying, grimacing, staring spells
Sleep difficulties /Sleep difficulties
Eating disorders, feeding problems /Eating disorders, feeding problems
Self injurious behavior, e.g. head banging /Self injurious behavior, e.g. head banging
#Population Characteristics
Mercury Poisoning Autism
Effects more males than females /Male:female ratio estimated at 4:1
At low doses, only affects those geneticially susceptible /High heritability – concordance for MZ twins is 90%
First added to childhood vaccines in 1930s /First “discovered” among children born in 1930s
Exposure levels steadily increased since 1930s with rate of vaccination, number of vaccines /Prevalence of autism has steadily increased from 1 in 2000 (pre1970) to 1 in 500 (early 1990s), higher in 2000.
Exposure occurs at 0 – 15 months; clinical silent stage means symptom emergence delayed; symptoms emerge gradually, starting with movement & sensation /Symptoms emerge from 4 months to 2 years old; symptoms emerge gradually, starting with movement & sensation.
More info found here:
http://www.autismtruth.org/Archived/60minutes_112004.html
ROK // August 31, 2008 at 6:36 PM
@GP,
Thanks so much. You have indeed added a lot here. Incidentally “Shaki” is a female.
You said: “Perhaps your research should begin my a mass testing to ascertain which members of the community are atopic and thus susceptible to asthma and other atopic illnesses, and those who are not.”
Would it be useful to look at demographics here too to see if they are in any catchment areas? Let me see if I find that New Zealand research for you.
Also I put up the document in MS Word so if you wish and you have the time, download it and make some inputs. This could become a section which is headed vaccinations. We can then add pesticides and water pollution as another section and then nutrition and preservatives as another. What you say? See download link:
http://www.igloo.org/bangoonline/download-nocache/Library/health/nationalhe
Needless to say, any other help we can get would be welcomed.
ROK // August 31, 2008 at 6:41 PM
@cherry2enpowered
They are claiming that they no longer use mercury based vehicles in vaccinations, but I agree with you, we should do the check and make sure that some unscrupulous company is not keeping the old formula for the lesser developed countries; where law suits don’t ever arise.
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 6:54 PM
Re
Would it be useful to look at demographics here too to see if they are in any catchment areas?
I think atopy is inherited but not 100@ sure
I think you guys with even an asthmatic dog farless a relative, should be clamorring for amionophyline supossitories to be available for asthmatics to use as thier primary attempts at rescue as they set off for medical assistance.
It is more likely to be effective than the relatively low dose of medication delivered by inhalers in an emergency situation.
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 7:07 PM
ROK
I think you should get the input from any immunologist at UWI
I think you should survey the presence or absence of carpets and pets indoors etc as part of your excercise
Whereas it is fun to argue and offer opinions on the forum, a lot of talk does not help too much.
I think that initiatives arising out of our arguements here that will bare fruit are welcomed.
I still believe we should give DPT MMR and maybe BCG and be careful with Gardasil.
But since about 1966 when we started importing chicken backs and cool aid and Tang etc we have gone downhill with the chemicals we have been taking.
There has been an enormous bombardbment of our homes and bodies with chemicals since then.
Lets remember that many ingredients in the cosmetics and stuff we put on our skins can be absorbed by the fat in our skins.
David // August 31, 2008 at 7:11 PM
@GP
We were thinking the same thing. There is a research department at UWI. BANGO should submit a proposal for consideration. The hurdle maybe financing.
We know that Dr. Justin Robinson is a visitor to BU, ROK please give him a call and ask for his direction. We think you maybe on to something here by the instrument must be carefully crafted.
ROK // August 31, 2008 at 7:27 PM
Justin is an economist unless I got a name wrong. Wouldn’t we need medical research?
Agree with you that it must be carefully crafted and that is why it needs much more content than the first draft.
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 8:28 PM
ROK
I think you should think team. Even if the brother is an economist, and his input may not be hot on the medical side it will be for another project, and if he has been into surveys, he might be able to help with your survey questions
Obviosly is one thing to some and another thing to others, but it seems you want to take these daily arguments of ours in our sparetime to a higher level.
I think it would be a waste of time coming on BU if it all ends here as simply rum shop talk or beach talk or whatever where Bajans meet to talk.
Best wishes in your endeavors
Georgie Porgie // August 31, 2008 at 8:34 PM
@ David
Whereas finances might slow down ROK’s ideas or ideals, there are some surveys or research topics here that might not be so expensive to do.
I am hoping, for example that the Public Health Dept has been tesating our water for pesticides. If so, ROK may be able to present an analysis of the info.
Another source may be information collected by the medical students for thier Social & Preventative Medicine rotations over the years– if they still have to do a reserach project.
ROK // August 31, 2008 at 9:19 PM
@GP,
Yes, the idea is team work as you would see from the document so thanks for the leads.
The first thing is to develop the document. I suspect that by the time we get to Justin or the researchers who will collect the data, they will want to see a comprehensive plan with inputs from the medical profession.
This is certainly not intended to be a digital exercise in all senses of the word. I have pondered on this for a long time and to tell the truth, BU has assisted in encouraging me to put this in the public domain; not only David’s invitation but the fact that BU is here.
J // September 1, 2008 at 12:38 AM
Has anybody considered cow’s milk? It is well know that a lot of people of West Arfican ancestry ie. most of us are lactose intolerant. Some of us are also intolerant of cow’s milk protein, and even of beef (arthritis symptoms).
We drink a lot more milk nowadays starting with the importation of cheap cow’s milk from New Zealand for the school feeding program. But should our children be using so much milk, cheese (read macaroni pie) butter, ice cream etc. as well as milk added to cookies, cakes and other processed foods.
One of the first things allergists do is to ask the parent to remove cow’s milk from the child’s diet.
We are NOT European’s or even North Africans who evolved along with the d*** cows. Maybe we need to give our young mother’s a greater period of maternity leave – say 6 to 9 months – so that they can nurse their babies longer, so that cow’s milk is not introduced to our children’s diets so early.
In North America some schools have banned peanut butter and other peanut products. Some European descended children tend to have peanut allergy because the West African peanut is a strange food and their systems cannot tolerate it. I know a lot of Bajan children/people with milk intolerance but none with peanut allergy (I am not of course saying that there are no people in Barbados with peanut allergy) , yet peanut allergy is commonplace in the North America and Europe.
Why?
This cow’s milk problem may be a more useful line of research than the vaccine one.
The scout // September 1, 2008 at 4:00 PM
As a youngster, I was brought up on good cow’s milk. The type that when the cow is milked out on the pasture by the time you reach home the cream starts to form on the top. Today the milk is watered down, the milk from the cow has no body. I think the abundance of fast foods parents feed their children on is greatly contributing to unhealthy youngsters. Plus children no longer play on the outside nor run around barefooted to massage the bottom of their feet. Vaccine is necessary and is the lease problem to our young children.
The scout // September 1, 2008 at 4:05 PM
I’m worried about the amount of illegal children that is coming into the school system in Barbados. To get my child into school he/she has to be vaccined and MUST show Barbadian citizenship. How then are these illegal children getting into the school? If they are vaccined, how did they get it? or if they are not, can they infect the other children in the class. If vaccination is so important, why only barbadian have to get it?
Kay // September 1, 2008 at 8:35 PM
I think it is a very good idea to do a study on the possible effect that so many innoculations may be causing other illnesses. It would also be a good idea to look at the water supply.
But trying to frighten people that the death toll will rise if our children do not get all of these shots based on figures from the 1930s’ does not take into account that our living standards are much higher now, i.e. indoor plumbing etc.
Why would anyone object to the suggestion to continue the innoculations but study the results?Are they afraid of what the research will prove?
J // September 2, 2008 at 11:18 PM
But Kay the DEATH toll will RISE without comulsory vaccination.
There HAS been a good bit of talk on this blog about making vaccination voluntary. That is dangerous FOOLISH talk.
An attempt by mis-guided people to undo 50 years of excellent public health work.
The germs are still out there.
I my lifetime I have known 3 people die of tetanus, all of whom had apparently “minor” abrasions or punctures and so did not go to the doctor on time. I have know one in intensive care for months with tetanus. I’ve know 2 permanently disabled by polio. Their parents, children, widows still grieve. This is not ancient history. This is NOW.
No I am NOT a medical professional so think then about what doctors and nurses must know.
I am not yet 60, so I am talking about the present generation.
J // September 2, 2008 at 11:25 PM
Dear Scout:
There is no such thing as an illegal child.
Most countries provide at least a primary education to all residents, because believe it or not it is cheaper to educate undocumented children than to deal with an uneducated underclass.
It is also cheaper to vaccinate ALL children than to deal with an epidemic.
If you doubt me see what a measles epidemic, or a polio epidemic would do to our beloved tourist industry.
Ask the people in Toronto what happened to their tourist industry in the year or two after the SARS epidemic? There is still no SARS vaccine.
The clinics are sensible enough to vaccinate all children and the principals are sensible enough to check that this has been done.
Georgie Porgie // September 3, 2008 at 3:51 PM
Very good points J
ROK // September 3, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Who say the children will die? Why aren’t the Rastafarian children dead? Why are those who refuse vaccinations on grounds of religious beliefs not dead?
This is bordering on the foolish. Here you have people among us that are not vaccinated but we are not worried about any epidemics because once your children are vaccinated you feel safe, right? So why you trying to force that down somebody’s throat who feels threatened by vaccinations?
Who say that in both cases there may not be a false sense of Security? However, you feel so safe that you don’t want to find out how safe you really are?
Everybody has the right to choose. To administer vaccinations to those who believe otherwise is a breach of their human and political rights.
If therefore the whole of the African community decide to become muslims tomorrow, where would that vaccination program be?
I think that to wallow in ignorance is insane. We have no proof one way or the other. There is more to consider here than the diseases we seek to vaccinate against because the fact is, we are a much weaker generation.
Tell me something, are children born autistic or is it developed and what causes it? Are children born asthmatic? What causes it to develop? Why is it so widespread? Are you saying that it is futile to find out or you saying that we have the answers already?
Indeed not! So why the paranoia if youu feel safe? We cannot in all honesty, compare the 1930s to today when it comes to health, hygiene and the availability of medical services. Yet we still do not have the answers, so are we to mark time?
Talk about the work of the heroines? Well if they marked time in that period, where would we be? They had problems and sought to solve them. Are we prepared to leave ours alone to get worse and worse? What justice is there for the work they have done? They dealt with their time, we should deal with the problems in ours otherwise we would have failed in our duty to our nation and would also have failed to secure a safe future for our children.
J // September 3, 2008 at 8:13 PM
Dear ROK
Q. “Here you have people among us that are not vaccinated but we are not worried about any epidemics”
A. Take the time to do some research on herd immunity
Q. “Everybody has the right to choose. To administer vaccinations to those who believe otherwise is a breach of their human and political rights.”
A. No it is not.
Q. “If therefore the whole of the African community decide to become muslims tomorrow, where would that vaccination program be?
A. Islam does NOT prohibit vaccination. Like many Bajans I have a sister who nursed is Saudi Arabia the site of Mecca and cradle of Islam for decades. Islam does NOT prohibit vaccination. The wealthy, deeply religious Saudis are only too happy to have their children vaccinated by a good Bajan nurse.
Some poorly educated Rastafarians have been mislead into refusing vaccines for thier children. This is unfortunate. However well educated Rastafarians for the most part DO have their children vaccinated.
Stop trying to mislead poorly educated people.
If we want to do something good for our young mothers and children why don’t we grant them 6 months of maternity leave with full pay. Why don’t we have sustained breast feeding education programs. Why don’t we stop burning plastic and other junk in our yards? Why don’t we stop polluting the air because we feel we have a God given right to have a car at every door? Why don’t we develop a good public transportation system to that we can get the number of private cars on the roads back to the pre-asthma days?
I fight with you in memoryof Trevor and Herma who were permanently disabled, for Eustace who spent far too long in intensive care, for Sylvan and Mac and Bruce who died. All after 1965. All from diseases which are preventable by vaccine.
The germs have not all disappeared just because we can now wash our hands with soap and warm water.
Mass vaccination is still necessary.
J // September 3, 2008 at 8:30 PM
The unvaccinated Rastafarian and other children WILL die the day an infected tourist comes here witha current infection an sets off an epidemic among the unvaccinated.
I have had friends and realtives die from vaccine preventable diseases and I am sure that you have too. Why don’t you tell the young people the truth instead of trying to mislead them?
Kay // September 3, 2008 at 9:43 PM
J
I am sorry that you should know 3 people who have died of tetanus, but tetanus is not a disease that passes from person to person. Most people who contract it are adults, and we are talking about compulsary innoculation of infants and children.
My generation did not get MMR and parents often used to say that it is better to get these childhood diseases while still a child. The problem with german measles is for pregnant women, so why not just have women get that shot before they get pregnant.
Furthermore these innoculations do not give permanent protection and most adults do not go and get boosters, if they even had the origional series of shots.
J // September 3, 2008 at 10:58 PM
Dear Kay:
Do you want me to tell you then about my 40 something friend whose 20 something daughter is profoundly deaf becasue her mother did not get MMR as a child but DID get rubella while pregnant? Do you know how many young people in Barbados are deaf because our parents/government were too POOR to immunize our generation as children. Go up to the school for the deaf one day. Talk to the parents who struggle to find an pay for special education for their deaf children. Do you know how much it costs to send a deaf child to a university for the deaf such as Gaulladet?
The reason that “women don’t get the shot before they get pregnant” is that even now most conceptions are unplanned. We have to immunize the girls before their first period, and for some girls that can be as young as 7 and we cannot predict when the first period will occur in any given girl. The first period is ALWAYS a surprise.
ROK // September 3, 2008 at 11:10 PM
@j,
Why is it that I am misleading people and you are not? I am not sure where you are coming from. You have a thing about vaccination but this raises another point about health security.
Why is it that we are so much in defense of western medicine that we can’t think for ourselves? It feels like a safe haven? Well it is not.
I fail to believe that and I am going to place you in the minority with that view.
Let me say to you that you should check the constitution of Barbados and the International Convention of Human Rights to which Barbados is a signatory.
To my mind though, it would seem that the reason for legislating such programs would be to protect the medical industry. They only have to say that they were fulfilling the legal requirements as imposed on them by the state. They become agents of the state (so to speak).
The fact is however, the industry profits from it and to this extend, the courts have not eased up on the industry’s responsibility to be vigillant and to be liable for negligence, given the undertaking.
I need to check on the American case law, where it is reported that victims of the mal-effects of vaccinations have been awarded damages. If there is but one thing this establishes for me without even reading a case, it is that there has to be sufficient conclusive evidence for the courts to make such awards.
Where would this put your argument?
ROK // September 3, 2008 at 11:14 PM
But J, we are not advocating a total discontinuation of vaccines. We are saying, find the ones that can be eliminated.
ROK // September 3, 2008 at 11:19 PM
@David,
Just seeing your earlier note. Will call Justin. I am up to my ears right now but I will try to call tomorrow.
David // September 4, 2008 at 6:56 AM
@STEADY
We did tell you that there would be a delay and as it looks a possible revisit to negotiations with the EU. Did we not?
@ROK
We see that the Caribbean Policy Development Centre have started a petition like BANGO. Does it make sense to collaborate?
Isn’t it interesting that CARIFORUM want to sign on to this EPA as a group but we have different policies on CHINA and Petrocaribe?
All seems so confusing.
Does this all mean that those countries who are pulling back don’t have confidence in the regional Negotiating Machinery?
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 8:19 AM
@David,
Actually, we are collaborating and that is why the two petitions are the same only one is couched for Barbados and one for the Caribbean. We had hoped that all the states would do the some but we have T&T, St. Lucia, Dominica, Antigua and I think Grenada on board that collected signatures.
As a matter of fact the two petitions have been making the same rounds together in the same e-mails from the very beginning.
It was CPDC that framed the first petiition and we set the target of 5000 signatures. The response is very weak. Not sure that we will get as much as 20% of the target.
(I think we are on the wrong string) However, while this may be low this is still encouraging because we could see the increase in signatories with every e-mail and after every media story. Nobody signs when news and views are not in the air.
I must state here that a lot of organisations have gone into effective hibernation in the past; tardy and apathetic. This is therefore encouraging as it is a sign that hibernation seems to be over. I am sure you would have seen the same effect on the population itself; more people willing to speak up.
It must be more a country’s assertion of its right to determine its destiny that is causing the pull-back than any consideration of confidence in the RNM. Not to have confidence in the RNM is the same as a Prime Minister not having confidence in the majority of his colleagues. The RNM can only negotiate what they are told. They have directives coming collectively from the process.
Even though all the countries took part in the process, there may have been those who were silent or did not get their recommendations in the collective.
This is a critical decision and while some may want to throw away their sovereignty to EU, there are others that do not have the confidence in the EU to act in their economic interests and would prefer to take the chance of not signing.
As I see it the ball is in our court. If the majority go ahead and sign, then the Agreement goes into force to the (apparent) detriment of those who did not sign. The other point is that the EU will use our signing to coerce the other regions into signing.
If, however, nobody signs, the EU is in trouble, not us. First, they won’t have anything to wave in the face of Pacific and Africa and then Pacific and Africa may say that if the Caribbean did not sign, we are not signing.
I am very sure that they are both looking on with interests and taking notes too. We are supposed to be the example and EU knows it can’t fail.
(I want to copy this to the right thread)
Kay // September 4, 2008 at 11:09 AM
If those girls were immunised against german measles before the age 7 the immunity will be gone by the time that they are in their 20’s and 30’s as it does not last. So there is still a risk of contracting german measles and hence having children not only deaf but also with down’s syndrome and holes in their heart. So the best way to prevent these is to plan pregnancies and immunise before attempting to start a family.
J // September 4, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Dear ROK:
American lawyers should stay out of health care.
I am glad that most Bajans are sensible enough to keep lawyers out of their health care.
Not withstanding the constitution governments all over the world compell people to do all kinds of things. I am compelled to pay taxes. I am compelled to educate my children. I am compelled to vaccinate my children. I am compelled to keep my yard and house clean and mosquito free (or at least to make a good effort). I am comanded to stop at red lights. If I own or manage a restaurant I am compelled to provide toilet/sink/soap/water/toilet paper for my customers. If a big hurricane comes the government can quite lawfully compell me to leave my home.
All those things lead to a well governed society.
We do not want anarchy.
I did not lie whan I said that friends and relatives had died from vaccine preventable diseases in this Barbados since 1965. I am sure that some of yours have died too. Why don’t you speak the truth?
The young people need to know the truth so that old fools do not lead them to destruction.
J // September 4, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Dear Kay:
More than 50% of all pregnancies worldwide are unplanned.
People have unplanned sex. It is called being human. It is also the reason we have HIV/AID epidemic world wide.
When you have figured out a way to get ever single human being to plan every single act of intercourse pleae let me know.
Don’t you see that in the U.S. the 17 year daughter of the Republic Vice Presidential candidate is pregnant? Do you think that she consulted her parents or her doctor before having sex?
Do all or most human beings generally engage in rational discussion and planning before having sex?
Sargeant // September 4, 2008 at 3:46 PM
J
There was a time when all good Catholics planned the time of month when they would have sex since contraception was forbidden. The timing was based on the female’s fertile days and was called the Rhythm method. Some wag called it Rhythm and Blues because if you screwed up (pun intended) the days the Blues would surely follow..
Kay // September 4, 2008 at 4:18 PM
J
Since the MMR is given at age 15 months and the immunity is gone by about 16- 17 years and the majority of pregnancies whether planned or not occur after age 18, giving babies this shot is not preventing birth defects. Unless you also happen to know some 3, 4 , 5 year olds who have had babies!
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 4:31 PM
@J,
Tell me about the UK lawyers too. They got compensation out there too… but I don’t know what you have against American Lawyers and to tell the truth they have done a lot to widen human and personal rights.
They have done better than us because you can find an independent lawyer in US ready to take your case without selling you out. Down here we collude to pervert justice and maintain a status quo… so I don’t know what you saying???
I want you to address Kay’s point because she is making good sense. Why have this vaccination during a period when you don’t need it and then when you really need it, it is no longer compulsory?
Furthermore, all that you talk about ordering a civil society, it don’t get in your bedroom except for rape (which is an unlawful because it is against the will of the person being invaded) and it don’t invade your person to alter your body or kill its defences, but for the health of the nation. This too is for the health of the nation, especially if what Kay said is true.
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 4:53 PM
@David,
Called Justin three times today. Got the right number the final time. Hopefully by tomorrow i would speak to him.
J // September 4, 2008 at 6:24 PM
I’ll let Georgie Porgie and the other medical people onn this blog answer the questions about how long immunity lasts for each vaccination. I am not at all sure that Kay is right when she implies that none of them provide life long immunity.
J // September 4, 2008 at 6:28 PM
And besides if a boster is needed sensible parents will ensure that their children’s medical needs are looked after up to age 18; and after 18 a young person whose health has been well looked after will start to take responsibility for his own health care.
J // September 4, 2008 at 6:29 PM
I have nothing against American lawyers. However I believe that many American doctors have some serious reservations about some American lawyers.
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 6:32 PM
@Kay,
Are you saying that for all vaccinations there is a short immunisation span? The other question is, if you get a booster, how much longer does that last?
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 6:34 PM
@J
What would you have about those who can take you out if you make a professional mistake?
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 6:42 PM
Kay,
If you stop vaccinating children against rubella the disease will be widespread.
The very adults which YOU point out are no longer immunised will get rubella from the children.
It is BECAUSE of vaccines that rubella is practically eradicated and adults without immunity need not fear.
You have completely misuderstood the policy.
They will then be many many children born with defects who right now are born fine. The consequences to stop rubella vaccination are dire.
This is what happened in the past.
Learn from it.
Well done J for fighting the good fight.
People today can rubbish vaccines because they have NO IDEA what it is was like before.
Read about TB in the UK in the 19th century before coming here with pure nonsense.
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 6:45 PM
that should be TB in the 19th century
Kay // September 4, 2008 at 7:10 PM
Scientist
The UK, European Countries, USA do not do mass BCG innoculations because it is not effective. If you do not believe me you can easily find the information on their sites on the net. When it is given a patch test is done first, this is not done here.
About 10 years ago my childrens doctor told me to get them revaccinated for MMR around the age of 15 because they were realising that the immunity was wearing off around that age.
If children are immunised and adults are not the disease will still spread among the adults, and pregnant women in the first trimestre are the most vulnerable to Rubella aka german measles.
Tetnus boosters should be done every 5 years, especially in the farming community and the construction industry.
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 8:02 PM
Kay,
Your claims do not accord with the facts. See the following table for the DRAMATIC reduction in rubella since the vaccine was introduced.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00035381.htm#00000470.gif
To stop immunising children for rubella (and to immunize adults when they ‘plan’ to get pregnant) must truly be the silliest suggestion that I have ever read on any blog .
If you stop immunising children for rubella the disease will return and you will have children being born with defects.
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 8:27 PM
@ Scientist
Why would it return? Is this something that exists in the body or it has to be contracted?
J // September 4, 2008 at 8:45 PM
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Immunizations page:
http://www.cdc.gov/az/i.html
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 8:50 PM
not sure what I looking for here. Don’t see any reference to sources of the disease.
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 9:00 PM
@J,
This CDC site ain’t saying much at all. Had to wonder if it is an advertising or promotion site for CDC. This is a private sector thing?
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 9:45 PM
@ROK
why would it return?
because it has not been eradicated world wide.
A young child has a young immune and would be vulnerable.
In contrast to some of the nonsense posted above, a vaccine STRENGTHENS an immune system not weakens it.
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 9:48 PM
This is what happens when kids are not immunised
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5hjPDvv-qkDYO6iVSWH_Rx9RsfuVg
J // September 4, 2008 at 9:51 PM
The Centers for Disease Control is an agency of the U.S. government’s Department of Health. CDC does research and public education and also monitors and tracks diseases.
The site is quite deep with hundreds or maybe thousands of links. It is constantly being updated so you can check back many times.
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Your call for research is interesting. You present the conclusion before the research is started.
I quote from your “letter” :
“Given the evidence which is supporting the view that excessive vaccinations may be
defeating the purpose of vaccinating populations, the record shows an increase in
Barbados in the incidences of these vaccine related diseases.”
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
J,
when the conspiracist sees evidence against their position they just dismiss it as all part of the conspiricacy, The CDC must be part of the fraud right, together with the FDA and health bodies worldwide.
Any data you or I provide, just all part of the conspiracy.
No doubt ROK already thinks I am some insider in the whole conspiracy, working for a drug company or such.
To them, you and I just idiots who have fallen for it.
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Another example when people are misled by stupidity.
http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=1229
KIDS DIE
J // September 4, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report Ferbuary 29th, 2008 states that
“in the pre-vaccine days there were 3 to 4 million cases of measles in the United States EVERY YEAR. 450 deaths, 28,000 hospitalizations and 1,000 permanent disablities.” Understand that even a country as wealthy as the U.S. would be challenged by that disease burden.
and futher that
“vaccine coverage of 90% or better is needed to interrupt transmission”
That’s just measles. I’ll find the data on the other childhood diseases tomorrow.
I had measles when I was 10 because my parents/country were too poor to immunize me. I would not wish it on my worst enemy.
J // September 4, 2008 at 11:12 PM
Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 11:33 PM
@Scientists,
Think it is you that doing the dismissive act. I just asked a question because I did not have the time to look right through the thing at the time and simply got frustrated after checking several pages quickly.
Just putting up a link without explaining what it is or making the point, does not help. When you people can’t get your own way you start cursing others, especially the ones with pseudonyms.
I am yet to see any consclusive evidence that vaccinations do not have side effects. Even the CDC site admits it and seeks to manage it, so I don’t know what you are saying. I really don’t care if you are part of a conspiracy or not because that does not take away the conspiracy. I am very accustomed to detractors and sometimes I welcome them because they throw up questions that need answering.
I can’t see why you would want to compare us with a situation in Central Africa. I agree with you, that is ignorance.
The only conclusion in your quote of what I said is a conclusion for research and not a conclusion about the vaccinations. I can’t say and never suggested that we abandon vaccinations but to study the results carefully and try to assess why these other diseases and conditions are prevalent and on the rise.
What I think is ignorance and which you yourself call ignorance is to have a problem and not try to find out about it and solve it. How different is your position from those in Central Africa saying no to vaccinations when you are fighting up about research to see what is happening to the health of this nation? We gone past the condition of Central African health services and now in a different health mode.
Between you and J, all I seeing is paranoia. I would like you two to put up an informed position and not come with this emotional thing and stop talking about misleading people because that is not what this exercise is about. This is a genuine attempt to find out why Terry Mayers is dead and why so much people have asthma. GP said that he can’t understand it.
Let me add for the record that except for some that I know with Polio, I do not know of anybody that died of small pox, chicken pox, rubella, etc. I however, know of people who contracted asthma, MS and of children who seemed perfect at birth that ended up being autistic.
I am also concerned that we are so paranoid that we administer this thing to everybody and we do not do any tests to determine whether or not the child’s body could handle the vaccination.
Everybody is not the same and the same way you can make exceptions based on faith with a high degree of certainty of good health, why not exempt those whose bodies can’t take it? Why sentence them to a life of misery and doom when it is not necessary?
Goats, whales, etc. have Kids. I don’t eat meat so the kids can get what they want. Tell me something about human beings.
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 11:35 PM
Gone back to pre-vaccine days? Chaaaa! Come again.
ROK // September 4, 2008 at 11:44 PM
When I was a child, every child in our house had measles and none died. As a matter of fact it was expected that children would get measles and it was said that if you got it after a certain age (after 10 yrs old or as an adult) it would be fatal.
At that time vaccination was not mandatory. I think at the time it was more availability than affordability because vaccinations were not always available and Government used to do it free under the WHO programme. You seem to be an older person than I am so your experience may have been different.
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 11:47 PM
ROK writes
“I am yet to see any consclusive evidence that vaccinations do not have side effects. ”
I dont there is a single medical practitioner of any credibility that ever claimed vaccinations dont have side effects in some cases.
Talk about making a straw man argument
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 11:50 PM
ROK claims :
“The profiles of these side effects and reactions match very closely, a rise in diseases and
conditions being experienced without explanation, in Barbados.”
Really?
Do you have any medical evidence to back this bold statement?
Any research studies?
Anything?
Or is just speculation on your part based on anecdotal evidence?
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 11:55 PM
ROK writes,
“This is a genuine attempt to find out why Terry Mayers is dead and why so much people have asthma. ”
Really?
So why restrict yourself to vaccination being the cause? It is the only possibility being considered.
Since vaccination coverage is about 97% in Barbados (and has been for years) dont you think the hsospitals would be full of asthmatics if this was the cause? would it not make more sense to consider other causes?
I have no problem with research but you seem to have drawn your conclusion already.
Scientist // September 4, 2008 at 11:58 PM
ROK writes :
“Let me add for the record that except for some that I know with Polio, I do not know of anybody that died of small pox, chicken pox, rubella, etc.”
Fantastic !!
Vaccination been a success.
In fact we dont have to just take your word. Check the Barbados historical record with the WHO and you will see as vaccination coverage rose each of these diseases started to fall dramatically and are now rare !
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:00 AM
ROK writes :
“Why sentence them to a life of misery and doom when it is not necessary?”
You start reducing vaccinations in Barbados and that is EXACTLY what you will do
ROK // September 5, 2008 at 12:06 AM
@Scientists
You really did not read this blog. Asking for other things to be identified that could be researched. Even GP suggested water and a couple other things above. (I accept your apologies)
Vaccinations should be but one section of the document which is really a first draft as you see it.
No insult intended but where you living? In Barbados? You check the QEH Asthma Bay anytime recently?
Don’t keep harping on conclusions you think I come to, help me get it right.
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:09 AM
ROK claims his study will give a :
“High probability of reducing the high incidences of asthma and other reported
chronic and terminal illnesses shown to be associated with excessive vaccinations;”
Really??
Has asthma been shown to be “associated with excessive vaccinations???
Where ? can you cite the journals where such studies were reported?
What other “chronic and terminal illnesses” have been “associated with excessive vaccinations”????
Name them.
Name the studies in medical journals showing this to be the case for each of the named illnesses.
What exactly is your defination of “execessive vaccinatons”? Is this an accepted medical threshold?
ROK further claims his research will have the following benefit :
“Eliminate/Reduce the incidences of autism after vaccination”
How exactly will that happen?
Where is the evidence that vaccination causes autism????
Are you familiar with the study in Finland of 1.8m children??
What are the autism rates in Barbados? Have they increased ?
ROK // September 5, 2008 at 12:10 AM
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:00 am
ROK writes :
“Why sentence them to a life of misery and doom when it is not necessary?”
You start reducing vaccinations in Barbados and that is EXACTLY what you will do
****************************************
Nothing to catch at here. Exempting those based on religious belief is about reducing vaccinations too. What is the population increase among this lot? To what extend does this put others or themselves at risk? You got any research?
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:13 AM
ROK writes :
“Don’t keep harping on conclusions you think I come to, help me get it right.”
Well get over your obsession with vaccinations which is truly one of the greatest gifts science ever gave mankind.
If you want to understand the high rates of asthma then go to it and dont focus on what is the least likely cause.
I did read the blog and was heartened to know that many people thought of more plausible causes. Your draft letter did not consider any and that was a startling omission which demonstrated your bias.
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:15 AM
I do not support exempting based on religious belief.
Check the article I posts on the mumps outbreak in BC.
I doubt the non religious are very happy to have got it as an adult.
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:18 AM
“Vaccinations should be but one section of the document which is really a first draft as you see it.”
+++++++++++++++
that would be an improvement
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:23 AM
ROK writes :
“When I was a child, every child in our house had measles and none died.”
That is YOUR experience.
It is a common myth that measles is not dangerous. To be fair, if you are healthy when you get it you have a better chance of it not being fatal. That is why when it strikes undernourished children it is more likely to be deadly.
Here is something from wiki which may help you understand just how dangerous measles can be and why we are so fortunate to be rid of it !
“The benefit of vaccination against measles in preventing illness, disability, and death has been well-documented. The first 20 years of licensed measles vaccination in the U.S. prevented an estimated 52 million cases of the disease, 17,400 cases of mental retardation, and 5,200 deaths.[3] During 1999–2004, a strategy led by the World Health Organization and UNICEF led to improvements in measles vaccination coverage that averted an estimated 1.4 million measles deaths worldwide.[4]“
ROK // September 5, 2008 at 12:24 AM
@Scientist
It is a draft and open for input. Maybe it’s time to put up a second draft based on the inputs above and start to tidy up the exercise for better input, rather than keep going over some of the same comments.
I have not done much research but from the little I see, I think the most conclusive evidence will come with research. I am sure we already have the statistics, except on those who don’t use the medical services and that is the most we will probably have to collect.
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:35 AM
ROK,
I have no doubt your heart is in the right place.
Somewhere you have been misled on vaccinations and you “drunk the kool aid” served up by idiots (its hard to be kind to them).
Time to think more rationally.
I have told you how dangerous measles really are, something I think you were unaware of. Now do you realise the medical miracle that is the vaccine?
I have shown you rubella rates collapse, how many birth defects did that save?
Do you know that over 2/3 rds of deaths in the UK in the 19th century was from TB? mostly children ! Do you have any idea what it must have been like to listen to a small child die with TB???
Now we have reduced TB not by vaccination alone that is true but without vaccination we would be nowhere today.
Can you imagine what it would be like to have a child struck down with polio?? A child unable to run, to play sports? when is the last case of polio in Barbados?
Before you attack vaccinations, think very very carefully.
The stakes are ENORMOUS !!
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:39 AM
Also from wikipedia
“Of the 66 cases of measles reported in the U.S. in 2005, slightly over half were attributable to one unvaccinated individual who acquired measles during a visit to Romania.[6] This individual returned to a community with many unvaccinated children. The resulting outbreak infected 34 people, mostly children and virtually all unvaccinated; 9% were hospitalized, and the cost of containing the outbreak was estimated at $167,685.”
ROK // September 5, 2008 at 12:41 AM
I have to admit to you that when I submitted that draft I was expecting others to input before it went public but that was probably not clearly understood. I myself was surprised to see it as it is. So I must apologise for any misconceptions caused.
It came as a suggestion from David and I quickly did my little share but now I holding the brunt. Don’t mind. I am taking it in good spirit. Accustomed to not seeing anybody when I look back, especially when you fighting for somebody else. All the talk until the time comes. That was not the case here though.
ROK // September 5, 2008 at 12:47 AM
@ Scientist
I hope that you see why the research is necessary? I quoting you on the Wikepedia:
“Of the 66 cases of measles reported in the U.S. in 2005, slightly over half were attributable to one unvaccinated individual who acquired measles during a visit to Romania.[6] This individual returned to a community with many unvaccinated children.”
We have communities of unvaccinated children.
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:52 AM
Are you suggesting that I as a Scientist did not think research is necessary?
That is all a good scientist ever does
That is how we get the vaccines.
And yes that is how we find out the side effects and the measure the benefits
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 12:58 AM
Do you know that of the 34 cases which were in the outbreak, 28 of them “had not been vaccinated, primarily because their parents were concerned about potential adverse events associated with vaccination.”
That is from the CDC
Yes research is very important.
That is why you had a community of unvaccinated children. Because of irrational fear from misinformation.
Imagine if one had died?
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 1:00 AM
J,
where are you?
I miss your outstanding input on this issue
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 1:07 AM
From Johann Hari , writing about the MMR scare in the UK:
“Panicked parents assumed that, since it was on the news, there must some evidence for it, and in several areas vaccination rates have fallen by 30 percent. The result? Britain’s chief scientist, Sir David King, warned last week that it is now probable fifty to one hundred kids will die of measles because of the disinformation campaign spearheaded by the Mail. It’s rare a newspaper actually manages to kill people, but Sir David King believes they may pull it off.”
David,
Please be careful with what comes on your blog with reference to vaccinations.
Today we seem to have no understanding of the stakes because we live blissfully unaware of just what these vaccines prevent. I would not like anyone to accuse your blog similarly.
David // September 5, 2008 at 1:15 AM
No need to get defensive ROK. BU support your call for research on the administering of vaccines to Barbadians. What J and Scientist are ignoring is the fact that the research will disprove the hypothesis i.e. prove you wrong when the data collection is analyze so there is no fear.
We support the call for research on this and many other matters because surprisingly over the years as an educated society we have not been as research driven as we should. The topical issue of co-ed and the impact on boys is one issue which we as a society have argued and have REFUSED to start research. It has been 30 years since major co-ed in Barbados and we are yet to eyeball any serious body of research.
Again don’t fear the research, if the hypothesis is rubbish the research will support it!
David // September 5, 2008 at 1:26 AM
We are not afraid of accusations. We have been branded xenophobic, racist among others. All we have done so far is to ask for some research on a matter and ask for input from the BU family. Some interesting discussion has ensued.
Maybe we all need to take a deep breath and step back a little.
Scientist // September 5, 2008 at 1:37 AM
David,
Agreed.
However its not that we fear the outcome of fair research, we fear the following :
- hype ( see UK vaccine scare). No reliable research supported the claim and massive research showed otherwise, the hype was all that was necessary for vaccination rates to drop.
- biased research. In my view the “research” had drawn conclusions before it started.
ROK,
I commend you for seemingly taking a more open position on the vaccines. The stakes really do demand great care.
I suggest for an effective study you take it one step at a time. Asthma is clearly what you seem to be most concerned about so maybe you should focus on that.
The first step is identify the problem. Are our rates indeed higher?
higher than what? the past?
higher than the carbbean?
higher than the developed world average?
Just that start may give you a few clues to where to start looking for a cause. (e.g are rates higher where vaccination coverage is higher?)
You will need a medical team to direct the research
Kay // September 5, 2008 at 7:57 AM
Scientist
You maka point about one person travelling to Romania bringing back measles to the states, so why not make some of these vaccinations compulsary before travel can take place. In adults as well as children. That way you put the emphasis on the way that these communicable diseases are spread.
Kay // September 5, 2008 at 8:07 AM
Sorry correction for the above:
You make a point etc.
I support the idea to do a study.
I hope that I am wrong.
My children have had all of these shots, I hope that it will not affect their immune processes.
But 2 already have auto-immune diseases, so I want to be sure that we do the best for all our children and I suspect that it might be better to give some of these innoculations slightly later when they would be more valid, e.g. MMR at age 15, and also if we are serious about reducing mortality we need to immunise adults, tetnus and hepatitis spring to mind.
J // September 5, 2008 at 12:40 PM
Dear Scientist:
Thank you for fighting the good fight. I was sleeping, housekeeping, shopping, paying bills. You know. Life.
Note that Key says that her own children have been properly immunized.
But yet she seems blissfully unaware (or does not care) that she may scare some parents away from having their own children properly immunized, and so put the children’s lives and health at serious risk.
ROK seems concerned about asthma and indeed I am too, but I believe that he is honestly but mistakenly looking for answers in the wrong place.
In the recent apparent asthma deaths of some adults I think that we should wait for the results of the inquests. And I think that we need to have inquests done much faster so that the whole community can learn what went wrong and how the wrong can be avoided in the future.
Some questions I would ask about asthma:
Does the asthmatic smoke?
Has the asthmatic EVER lived in a home where there is/was a smoker?
Is there smoking in the office?
Is there smoking in the school?
Is there smoking in the car?
Is there smoking in the places of recreation?
And this question would include all kinds of smoke, tobacco, marijuana, cocaine, as well as industrial and cooking/bar-b-q smoke.
Was the asthmatic breast fed?
If so for how long?
At what age as cow’s milk introduced?
Did the mother drink cow’s milk during her pregnancy?
If so how much?
And so forth.
But I am not a medical researcher.
Just a citizen and a parent.
Just a person who has lived in pre-vaccine Barbados and who has seen and experienced the sickness, disabilities and deaths. I am not yet 60 so I am not talking about ancient history.
J // September 5, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Or maybe ROK isn’t so innocent.
I directed him to the website of the Centers for Disease Control and this was his response
“This CDC site ain’t saying much at all.”
Yet the CDC is one of the world’s most competent authorities on immunization.
Maybe ROK does not really value research, maybe he wants to believe what he wants to believe and to hell with well researched science.
But immunization is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of SCIENCE.
And it is a matter of LIFE or death.
Kay // September 5, 2008 at 12:55 PM
J
Go back and read all my comments.
I have stated that I feel people should continue to have their children immunised while a study is undertaken.
I am not trying to frighten anybody, to suggest that is misrepresentation.
But I will tell you that if I had a child due to receive BCG in school and the proper protocol which involves a patch test prior to the innoculation was not being followed, from my experiences and what I have read, the child would NOT have that BCG.
And you keep on ignoring the fact that immunity is not for life so adults at high risks should also be immunised. In fact adults tend to suffer worst from most of these illnesses.
J // September 5, 2008 at 1:09 PM
I am not ignoring the fact that adults should be immunized. If you will read an earlier post you will see that I said that parents should take good care of their children’s health and that if this is done when the children become adults they continue to do so for themselves
Or
train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.
Partial // September 5, 2008 at 1:36 PM
Listen up, folks.
Google “The dangers of excessive childhood vaccinations” by Dr. Mercola.
You all may learn a thing or two. It’s a website with some fascinating info. Better yet, join up. It’s free.
You can thank me later.
ROK // September 5, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Partial!
You real partial fuh real! See link partial talking about:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/04/01/the-dangers-of-excessive-childhood-vaccinations.aspx
I truly recognise the paranoia. According to this page I am not wrong at all. Or at least somebody else seeing the light. All we asking for is to increase our knowledge of this and properly administer and manage.
K has the idea. She/he is very practical and not afraid to deal with problems head on. That is the spirit; don’t just coil up and accept as if it is God given that somebody know more about you than you.
This needs careful reading because I know that I will hear that these doctors are frauds.
Partial // September 5, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Those doctors are not quacks. Check out the names of some of the contributors on the net.
Mercola.com is the #1 world’s natural health newsletter with contributions from world renowned doctors. Problem is they are not pill pushers so they get a lot of flack from the large organisations who are trying to sell their drugs.
And no, I don’t work for them.
Keep an open mind.
ROK // September 5, 2008 at 4:27 PM
@ J
J, you start out very good and end up going back in the rut. I can’t understand you at all. I am not a scientist… maybe I should not say that but at least I am not a practising scientist. I switched to social sciences a long time ago and that is what I practice.
That does not mean total ignorance of science. As a matter of fact, science is still a good part of my life. Sometimes I feel sorry about that because I would have gone after solar every since.
I say that to say that I do understand the medical and health issues. This probe started out with reading Dr. Carolyn Dean on the side-effects of vaccinations and her research on the health care system in the USA, Africa and some other places.
When I thought about it, what we are doing is releasing living organisms into the body. My first question was, are these living organisms parasitical. If they are alive, it is obvious that they will have both negative and positive effects.
Does the body effectively get rid of them? etc. So while it may have started this way, commonsense is telling me that even if the vaccines are doing damage, they would have to be doing it in relation to other things. For example, something a person may ingest may very well create the perfect environment for side effects.
Even the state of the body itself may be deficient in some way to provide a fodder for the vaccine. It is a mild form of the disease but still it is a disease and the body is supposed to fight it in order to be armed with antibodies against a full strain of the disease.
GP made some very good suggestion for parallel research. Natural or social science is all science and follow basic principles of enquiry and reporting: objective, method, conclusions.
So this thing of belief don’t hold with me. I agree that on occasions you may make assupmtions or develop a theory which you would then proceed to test. Be assured that mine is not blind faith or mere belief.
Partial // September 5, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Rok, also check out on same mercola.com website “to vaccinate or not to vaccinate- vaccinations-are they dangerous”.
ROK // September 5, 2008 at 4:53 PM
yes. did that. Need to spend some time with it.
J // September 6, 2008 at 12:11 AM
Dear ROK:
I’ve noted yur willingness to spend time with the mercola website, yet you were entirely dismissive of the Centers for Disease Control website, you said that the CDC site “isn’t saying much” and asked whether the site was an advertisement for the CDC and whether it was private sector.
That justs shows that your mind is already made up and that you hope for research (and no doubt research money) to confirm what you already believe.
That is NOT science. That is NOT research.
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 12:46 AM
J,
Spot on.
ROK and partial would seemingly have us dismiss not only the CDC, but the FDA and WHO. Also every leading medical school research facility in the world. No they dont come here with studies from recognised journals they come here with information from some “dr” mercola.
Please tell us, has mercola published a single reseach paper in a recognised medical journal?
Note carefully, mercola is not an MD but an osteopath
Note carefully the most intelligent thing I see there on the website is the disclaimer of mercola himself where he himself advises that his opinion, and I quote, “IS NOT INTENDED AS MEDICAL ADVICE”
And for the ’snake oil’ he is selling , he offers this disclaimer :
“These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. ”
He may not be a “pill pusher” but he takes VISA, MASTERCARD and AMEX. How about that?
If you want to take advice from mercola, go right ahead. Rational thought is clearly beyond you.
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 1:27 AM
For Kay,
This comes from the NHS of the UK
“There is very little evidence that immunity to measles, mumps or rubella reduces with time. It has been proven that children who have been immunised with MMR will remain immune for at least:
27 years against measles
18 years against rubella
14 years against mumps
- in other words for the amount of time that the vaccines have been available.
Even if someone is not fully protected, the immune system will have some memory and be able to react more quickly if they have been immunised than someone who has not.
Immunised children with low levels of antibodies are likely to have a less serious illness. Long-term studies on the duration of protection are continuing.
The immunity against infection has been shown to last such a long time without waning that, in those people with protection, it is likely to be
lifelong”
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 1:40 AM
From the WHO
http://www.who.int/features/factfiles/immunization/facts/en/index9.html
Kay // September 6, 2008 at 8:23 AM
Dear Scientist,
Are you a doctor?
My childrens doctor in this island, advised me to have my children re-innoculated with MMR around 14-16 years old.
P.S. Even using the numbers that you quoted above by the time that most girls are producing children the rubella would no longer be valid. i.e. as most children in Barbados are born to mothers older than 19 years the innoculation at 15 months old will not be preventing birth defects.
Georgie Porgie // September 6, 2008 at 10:40 AM
For those who believe that the FDA is not very corrupt and is as pure as a virgin, you might find this article very interesting.
The FDA Exposed: An Interview With Dr. David Graham, the Vioxx Whistleblower
http://www.naturalnews.com/011401.html
ROK // September 6, 2008 at 10:43 AM
@ GP
Good point. Exposes the need to have our own health security in our hands and the very best reason why we should do this research.
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 7:17 PM
Kay,
read again the extract from the NHS.
Anybody consider that mercola might be corrupt??
ROK // September 6, 2008 at 7:47 PM
@Scientist
While we may consider whether or not mercola is corrupt, we know for sure about the FDA. So what is the point?
Georgie Porgie // September 6, 2008 at 8:08 PM
@ ROK:
FYI the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta is a serious Publicly funded organization, even though it seems to have made a hash of determining the source of the shigella out break this year.
It would be the equivalent in the USA to our Public Health Laboratory; but very highly regarded. If you go around saying that their website “isn’t saying much,” people who know will not take you, or your research too seriously.
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 8:17 PM
What is the point?
If the FDA is corrupt does that make all their claims misleading?
Immunisation of children is backed by
the CDC
UNICEF
the British NHS
Heath Canada
the WHO
the AMA
the British Medical Council
etc etc etc etc
but to name a fraction of medical bodies that support fully the routine immunisations that we have been giving children in Barbados for the last 20 years or so.
Immunisation is also backed by the Ministry of Heath in Barbados and the data collected by the Ministry and reported to the WHO overwhelmingly supports the success of vaccination in Barbados.
On the other side we have an a$$ called mercola who says vaccinations are dangerous.
The WHO has 8000 people working for the them in 147 countries. See the data they have collected. See the research that they do.
So who do you want to trust? mercola? the WHO, the CDC, UNICEF?
You want to do research, no problem. Just understand the stakes. Get it wrong and people will suffer. Read what you wrote in your letter, You draw conclusions before you even start.
That is my point.
What the hell is yours ?
Georgie Porgie // September 6, 2008 at 8:17 PM
Mercola.com is apparently the web page of a DO (osteopath) doctor. It is just another natural health/health newsletter, even though it might have contributions from world renowned doctors. I won’t quote it like if it were Holy Writ.
Some doctors have strong convictions. Whereas I can understand that; we also have to state what the current mainstream position of the profession is on a subject, and indicate why you are willing to stand by that opinion, or depart therefrom.
That is what was done a fortnight ago. I defended the mainstream position on the treatment of cervical cancer, and presented my objections to Gardisil on the basis of my understanding of Pharmacology, and the process of bringing a preparation to the market.
Note that naturopaths, although offering help to many patients, push their pills too and they actually get percentages for the sale of the medicaments that they use/sell from their manufacturers.
Just as the Drug Industry is guilty of greed and graft, so too are those who push alternative modalities for cure.
I have had the chance to read s texts on some natural medicines. Some of them are certainly very useful, and have begun to creep into Pharmacology texts. I have certainly used saw palmetto berry, cranberry juice, tumeric etc with some success. However, I warn persons that both mainstream drugs and natural therapies have their advantages, and their disadvantages. They are all potential poisons if not used properly. Look before leaping is the best ploy.
ROK // September 6, 2008 at 8:18 PM
@ GP
thought I explained that. “Ain’t saying nothing” only meant that I could not find the information I was looking for. It was like a big advertisement about the CDC. Maybe I couched it wrong but it did not seek to comment on the reputation of CDC, of which I really knew nothing.
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 8:21 PM
Keep drinking that kool aid that mercola and his ilk are serving and see where it takes you.
Here is a quote from the AMA which sums it up well,
“Immunization has been one of the most successful public health advances of the century. Very few persons living in the United States are now hurt by or die from vaccine-preventable diseases.
Unfortunately, the immense success of immunization in America has lulled many parents and legislators into complacency with regard to vaccine-preventable diseases like measles, meningitis, polio and diphtheria.
To maintain hard-won progress, the public and their appointed legislators must realize that these diseases still exist and can still debilitate and kill. “
Georgie Porgie // September 6, 2008 at 8:23 PM
To say that vacinations are dangerous certainly goes against the grain of accepted medical practice.
Note also that the relatively uncommon misfortune that has occured with the use of vaccines in the 50 years sinnce Sabin and Salk introduced the concept, is probably no different than what the pharmacologists call a drug idiosyncrasy; i.e a small minority of folk who take a drug in its normal dose will for some unknown reason suffer serious adverse effects.
ROK // September 6, 2008 at 8:36 PM
@ Scientist
If mercola is corrupt, does that make everything he is saying misleading?
Contrary to your belief, the research has nothing to do with any stakes but to inform for better management to reduce or even eliminate any risks without compromising the health of the nation; but to enhance it.
You really paranoid about this thing. I am sorry to have caused you such mental anguish and I hope you forgive me for having the wider interests of Barbados at heart.
If it is any comfort to you, simply ensure that your children are well protected in your mind. You have nothing to worry about. All the options are yours. Give them all 36… but please, don’t get a heart attack here. That is not warranted.
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 8:50 PM
ROK writes,
“Contrary to your belief, the research has nothing to do with any stakes”
This is the part you dont get.
You drafted a paper which claimed vaccinations were a problem before you concluded one iota of reasearch.
Start with research with that bias, what are the odds you get it wrong?
Read what the AMA is saying. In the absence of vaccine preventable diseases we are growing complacent. You put flawed research out there suggesting vaccines are dangerous and complacent people will not vaccinate their children.
There WILL be consequences to a reduction in vaccination. That is the stakes !
You get it wrong, people will suffer.
Vaccines are proven to eradicate diseases like measles, rubella etc.
You get it wrong thoses diseases will come back.
Do you understand the stakes now?
Despite the WHO, the FDA, the CDC people listen to idiots like mercola and if you make a mistake and also claim vaccines are dangerous people will listen to you too !
David // September 6, 2008 at 8:55 PM
@SCIENTIST
Your point has been made. ROK is trying to do something which is commendable i.e.ask questions and support it with research. However you must know that ROK has not authority to discontinue vaccinations. Keep it real.
Georgie Porgie // September 6, 2008 at 8:57 PM
@ROK
Send me a note with ROK in the subject line to georgiegporgie@hotmail.com
and I will send you some names of folk in Barbados who may be able to help you sort your ideas and research out.
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 9:02 PM
Andrew Wakefield did not have the authority to reduce vaccinations in the UK either.
But he caused them to reduce nevertheless.
Measles is on the rise and the chief medical officer in the UK estimates that maybe 50 kids may die from complications of measles in the next year.
How real is that for the parents?
ROK // September 6, 2008 at 9:04 PM
@ Scientist
Man, don’t sound so dejected. I stopped drinking kool-aid before I stopped being a lad. Mercola, CDC, FDA, etc., etc., should not make critical policy decisions for us. We should make them ourselves based on our factual situation.
It is our responsibility to secure our medical health and if we give that up to anybody else, we have only ourselves to blame.
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 9:08 PM
David, ROK,
Let me put it to you this way.
If ROK comes out and says asthma is caused by pesticides in the tap water (and lets say he is wrong) worst case scenario, people waste some money on bottled water.
His research looks like he is setting out to find vaccinations are the cause of problems.
What I am saying is
1) the consequences of him getting it wrong are HUGE. Reducing vaccination coverage has consequences.
2) we have overwhelming evidence of vaccine safety from multiple medical authorities.
I think his approach needs reconsideration.
The anti vaccine bias needs to be taken away.
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 9:13 PM
ROK,
The CDC, the WHO, the FDA dont have to make policy decisions for us.
But is it not wise to learn from their experience when we make ours?
If we as a nation dont have the resources to test every drug on the market, should we do without it? or should we learn about it from someone ?else?
The ultimate decision is always ours, but what is wrong with taking good advice?
Scientist // September 6, 2008 at 9:17 PM
David,
You are right, I made my point, not much more I can contribute.
J, where are you?
Time I moved on.
J // September 7, 2008 at 1:41 AM
I am not sure how old Kay’s children are, but some of mine are adults and now responsible for their own health care. But in their childhood I followed the good advice of the polyclinic service and the of the head of peadiatrics at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital (who also worked/works for the polyclinic service) a physician of many years experience educated at the University of the West Indies and the Hospital for Sick Children (Toronto). If have to take her advice or Merocla’s. I’ll take hers. My childen received the usual routine infant immunizations and at age 11 before secondary school were required to and indeed received boosters for diphtheria, measles, mumps, rubella, polyomyelitis and tetanus. These were done at the polyclinic. I understand that the polyclinics offer this mass immunization service in order to ensure that as many children are immunized as possible and at the lowest possible costs, so that even the poorest parents can have their children immunized. I paid for them to be immunized against chicken pox as this is (was) not yet offered by the polyclinic service and the doctor advised that young adults should be imminized against hepatitis before going overseas to live in crowded university dorms. I took the doctor’s advice. I have no reason to believe that she has misled me. I had chicken pox at 26 on my fist week on a new job in the great white north. Almost lost my job because of needing several weeks sick leave after only being on the job for 4 days.
I think that those parents who believe that thier religion forbids immunizaton need to be educated, because there is actually nothing in the Great Books, the Talmud, the Bible and the Koran which forbids immunization (or even mentions it)
Kay // September 7, 2008 at 7:49 AM
J
Two of my children are adults and like you I did have them immunised according to the required standards, the third is not yet adult and had the innoculations acording to his green card plus extra ones suggested by his doctor. I repeat that two of my children have seriuos autoimmune diseases and I support the call for local studies to be done.
I don’t think that you understand that what we are questioning is packing so many immunisations into such small bodies within such a short space of time.
And frankly you and scientist can swallow hook, line and sinker what you read on the CDC site, mind you scientist like he has not read their position on BCG, but I have had my own experiences and believe we need to do our own research.
That is it . Fullstop Period
ROK // September 7, 2008 at 10:18 AM
@ Kay
We need you. admin@bango.org.bb
J // September 7, 2008 at 2:33 PM
Dear Kay:
Have you considered that if 2/3 of your children have serious auto immune disorders that it may well be a genetic disorder? and have nothing to do with immunization?
Have you done the research into your own family medical history first?
I’ve done the research in my family and I know that lupus has been in my family for at least 100 years and that it has nothing to do with vaccines, because the ones who died in the 1950’s and 1960’s from lupus had never been immunized.
Sometimes we don’t want to look at our family history too closely because we are very afraid of the truths that we may find there.
And no I do not misunderstand you. Your main concern as stated by you is not about packing too many immunizations nto such small bodies.
I am cutting and pasting directly from your writing on September 5th at 8:07 p.m.
“I suspect that it might be better to give some of these innoculations slightly later when they would be more valid, e.g. MMR at age 15″
There is your own words you state that it would be better not to immunize against mumps, measles and rubella until age 15.
I SHUDDER to think of the number of deaths and disabilities we would have in Barbados if your “better” advice was taken.
We have been in that bad place unummunized place already. I trust that no policy maker nor parent would be so foolish as to take your advice to suspend immunizations until age 15. And I am not misquoting nor misunderstadnding you. I quote you EXACTLY.
Georgie Porgie // September 8, 2008 at 5:06 PM
@ J
Re Have you considered that if 2/3 of your children have serious auto immune disorders that it may well be a genetic disorder? and have nothing to do with immunization?
You have asked a very good and relevant question. Auto immune disorders are more likely to be due to a genetic disorder than due to immunizations.
David // September 9, 2008 at 6:37 PM
@ROK
Do you see any parallel or similarity in your concern that rolling more vaccination in the shots given to our children maybe the cause of health issues, and a similar call by Sir Leroy that eight people who worked in the Emmerton area may have died as a result of the water/Sewage Plant?
In both cased research is being asked for.
ROK // September 9, 2008 at 7:13 PM
@ David
Yes. Some of those deaths I referred to. The last three paragraphs under “Benefits” on page 2 speaks to this. This kind of thing has been happening quite often in recent times and is on the increase.
So really the research we asking for is very comprehensive and will take at least a year or two.
Eve U.K citizen // September 14, 2008 at 6:01 PM
Look up Human Papilloma.. i agree girls should have this vaccine better safe then sorry..and i always say the young the girl as sexual intercourse the more likely she could get cervical cancer..hope my view is looked at..Thanks
David // April 11, 2009 at 9:47 PM
Not sure if the BU family watched Larry king recently. There is a heavy debate in the US on the impact of the 30+ vaccines being administered to children. Sometime ago when the BU family engaged in the same debate some of us were vilified. Here is a transcript of the Larry King interview.
J // April 11, 2009 at 10:57 PM
Dear David you wrote “Sometime ago when the BU family engaged in the same debate some of us were vilified”
Not vilified David. Chastised.
A big, BIG difference.
J // April 11, 2009 at 11:08 PM
And David you know very well that the Barbados immunization schedule differs significantly from the U.S. immunization schedule (and this may or may not be a good thing).
After viewing Larry King’s transcript go pull out your green card; no, no, not your U.S. green immigration card; but your Barbados, Ministry of Health, Child Health Record, a vertically oriented trifold bright green document commonly called a the green card. If yo do not have one. I do have one right in front of me and I’d be happy to go through it with you and the BU family.