Submitted by Bush Tea on January 1, 2009
Bush Tea has noted the ominous silence of the BU family on the most recent events in the mid east, where the brilliantly logical Israelis are again employing their often tried tactic of bombing and killing their neighbours into co-operation. Clearly their strategists are banking on the hope that this approach MUST work eventually –especially after decades of failure. (Submitted on January 1, 2009 but was not picked-up by BU, sorry about that Bush Tea – David)
Clearly this is a situation, which has been refined by the US republican party, where in the lead-up to a national election, unpopular governments seek to rally national support for a ‘war’ against some unfortunate common foe –preferably someone who can be labelled a ‘terrorist’.
The Israeli plan is obviously to build up the usual hype, kill a few Hamas ‘terrorist’ – and their collateral family members behind whom they are hiding (in their homes) and wait for the USA to protect them in the UN while a face saving ‘truce’ is negotiated.
The ruling party now confirmed at home and by the USA as ’strong on terror’ and ‘able to protect the country’ would then be re-elected.
That is the plan. Here is the reality.
The current operation by Israel is going to finally bring the militant Palestinian forces together. (This happened 2 years ago in Lebanon for Hezbollah – but that seem to have been forgotten by Israel – or maybe the incumbent party is REALLY desperate).
This will result in the overthrow –this year- of ALL of the pro-western governments in the region –Egypt, Saudi Arabia…. ALL….
A VERY powerful strongman will then emerge, powered by the unifying force generated by this current (and previous) Israeli action, by the USA’s Iraq debacle, by control of huge oil reserves, access to very sophisticated weapons and an ideology fuelled by revenge and war.
The next New Year will be a very bleak one…. And Israel will pay a HUGE price for this approach to neighbour relations. Where is George Washington when he is needed? Is it not he who said that the best way to destroy your enemies is to make them into your friends????
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474 responses so far ↓
David // January 11, 2009 at 11:31 PM
BT you are scaring us!
Santa Klaus // January 12, 2009 at 12:23 AM
Bush Tea – is obviously not what you’re taking. I’ve never read so much disjointed rubbish.
David // January 12, 2009 at 1:18 AM
Here is a question:
Since 2005 can a member of the Bu family say how many Israeli citizens/soldiers have been killed by Palestinian rockets?
We are not belittling human life just trying to wrap our minds around this issue.
ROK // January 12, 2009 at 1:34 AM
about 2 dozen Israeli soldiers in the past ten years.
Technician // January 12, 2009 at 1:37 AM
http://bedanim.parsiblog.com/781547.htm
Technician // January 12, 2009 at 1:38 AM
I am not one who is easily moved but those pics ………..
ROK // January 12, 2009 at 1:54 AM
Note Technician, they are all children. Where were the adults that were attending these children?
David // January 12, 2009 at 8:02 AM
The interesting point to explore would be if the USA is able to wean itself off fossil fuel in the next 10 years. How would this affect the foreign policy of the region given its diminished importance.
It seems that it would become a free for all which tell us that Israeli interest in the USA may not want to be on board with Obama RE policies.
Santa Klaus // January 12, 2009 at 9:30 AM
The problem isn’t fossil fuel. It’s religion. Like in most other conflicts where true believers slaughter each other. Especially small children.
See Northern Ireland where there’s no oil.
The Israel/Palestine fiasco is best described as a schoolyard spat between 2 eight-year-olds.
“He stole my apple.”
“No he stole my apple.”
“No he stole my apple.”
“No he stole my apple.”
And if you continue this for an hour or two you’ll find Israel stole the apple first.
Or was it the Palestinians?
Adrian Hinds // January 12, 2009 at 9:50 AM
As ww2 pulled the world out of the depression, a ww3 would certainly be welcome news for the greedy, the powerful and the rich. What is occuring in the middle east can hardly be concidered a catylist for the start of ww3.
1:what is the Isreali’s stated goal for this offensive?
2: Operation Cast Lead in Gaza: Israel’s military offensive against Hamas has been in effect for two weeks, yet Hamas has retained the ability to fire rockets, and Israel has refrained from making a big push into Gaza City. What is Israel’s cost-benefit analysis in deciding how much more damage it needs to inflict before it can agree to a cease-fire? If Egypt continues to refuse to allow a multinational force to patrol the Gaza-Sinai border, and if Israel does not agree to a bolstering of Egyptian forces along the border, what kind of compromise can be reached? Will Israel end up having to resume responsibility for this border to prevent future arms smuggling?
Green Monkey // January 12, 2009 at 1:13 PM
Gaza Is the Future
Israel’s on a rampage – and here’s why
By Justin Raimondo (www.antiwar.com)
SNIP
The assumption that this is an overreaction to the pinpricks inflicted by Hamas is flat-out wrong: the current conflict, which is escalating rapidly, has zero to do with a few rockets lobbed over Israel’s impregnable perimeter. That was merely a pretext, and a thin one at that. Yet the exhibition of such a reckless disregard for truth and world opinion hints at the real agenda at work here and underscores the arrogance underlying it.
If we step back and look at Israel’s strategy in recent years, the Gaza reoccupation – or, at least, regime-change in Hamastan – makes perfect sense. Sharon’s was a tactical retreat: one small step backward, to be followed by a couple of giant steps forward. Lebanon’s recent agony was step one. The Gaza massacre is step two. The third is anyone’s guess. Syria? Lebanon, again? Kurdistan might be fun.
No one knows, of course, but the general outlines of what is going down, as we say in America, were laid out in “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for the Realm,” a policy paper produced by a remarkable group of American analysts in 1996, for then-Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The realm being Israel, and the unique group that produced it characterized by their centrality in pushing for war with Iraq. Led by Richard Perle, the “Clean Break” group consisted of James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser.
All of these august personages, but especially Perle, can claim the dubious credit of having co-authored what the late Gen. William E. Odom ruefully referred to as the greatest military disaster in American history. While Perle is now wailing over at The National Interest that he had nothing to do with it, that it was all George W. Bush’s fault, neither history nor the gods will absolve him. He and his fellow graduates of the Scoop Jackson Academy and Finishing School for Laptop Bombardiers are so on the record as being the earliest and most vociferous advocates of regime-change throughout the Middle East, and not just Iraq, that their denials of responsibility are a veritable pastiche of mendacity. Surely they jest.
Yet they just as surely were not jesting in “A Clean Break,” where the case is made that Israel is in a rut: Israel is endangered by an inability to break out of its settler-colony isolation, and, in the process, renew the Zionist project internationally. While no mention is made of the demographic time-bomb, it can be clearly heard ticking in the background. A new aggressiveness is called for, the Perle group argued, a clean break with the passivity of the past. They recommended a policy of regime-change throughout the immediate vicinity of Israel:
SNIP
Elbow room – or Lebensraum?
Of course, any war Israel involves itself in will drag in the United States, its principal patron and protector. In this, America is truly an empire of unique type – one that has been taken hostage by one of its own satellites. That, at least, is the intention, and, so far, the plan seems to be working.
SNIP
Israel is following the “Clean Break” plan almost to the letter, shedding its old role as a dependent settler-colony under continuous siege. In Gaza – and, be assured, throughout the Middle East – Israel is asserting its new role as regional hegemon in a multi-polar world. Israel, not the U.S., is taking the initiative and leading its great ally and “protector” around by the nose, with the Lobby serving as an effective rein on any sudden spasms of self-interest.
This can only end in one way: a general war, perhaps a world war, pitting the U.S. and Israel against virtually every nation in the region – in effect, the entire Muslim world. A new Hundred Years War, a molten eruption of religious conflict that reaches into every continent and smolders for generations until the last embers of hatred and memory are cooled. A century of escalating terrorism and devastating war: is this what the American people want?
Well, no, but the past eight years have been an object lesson in how easily people can be bamboozled into something they most definitely do not want. It can – and doubtless will – happen again. Indeed, the pattern is repeating itself with the new administration, and Obama hasn’t even taken the oath of office.
Look at Gaza and see the future.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=14046
Fool // January 12, 2009 at 2:08 PM
and it’s all the Jews fault.
Hatred of Jews is rampant at this site, led by Green Monkey and David BU. But at BU dating back to its links to antisemitic sites.
When BU is finished Barbados will hate Jews (more). Thank you BU for sowing the seeds of hatred towards foreigners and minorities, including Jews.
On topic, isn’t every bad thing that happens in the world because of a conspiracy by *them*???
Anonymous // January 12, 2009 at 2:43 PM
Stupse! Only the jews suffered!
NO ONE COULD HAVE SUFFERED LIKE BALCK PEOPLE NO ONE!
Proof me wrong! Stupse…..
Zionist // January 12, 2009 at 2:51 PM
Bust Tea, Have you taken a leave of your senses? Israel IS justified in suppressing violence and intimidation by the Hamas regime, irrespective of whether they were “elected”. Indeed, this is only possible by neutralizing these threats. What would you do if terrorists were constantly assaulting your polity? Would you not crush them like a cockroach? Do not answer that… lest you be considered a fundamentalist. In the final analysis, Israel must do what is neceesary to protect her borders and citizens.
The U.S. in recognising the Hamas regime threat, has in the past and today remains steadfast in their support for freedom and as an ardent supporter of enhanced interrogation techniques and rendition, I say, let us prosecute these threats with such vehemence that it will “shock and awe” the next generations into human form.
199 // January 12, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Would u like it to be the start of WW3, Bust Tea!! I get the sense that perhaps, ur feeling bored and desire to c some action!! Just don’t let it be at all of our expense, please!!
ROK // January 12, 2009 at 3:42 PM
Fool
Apt name for such a post. You are a scaremonger to the faint-hearted?
This is a question of standing up for humanity. It makes no sense asking Hamas to stop firing rockets because they are not hurting anybody. What Israel is being allowed to do is genocide.
So while we are not in the business of picking sides, I guarantee you that if the Palestinians were the aggressors, we would have been on Israel’s side. They say that God don’t like Ugly or Unfair… but the point is, leave God to do God’s work. Meanwhile, you do what is right as a human being; as one of God’s children.
“Vengance is Mine, saith the Lord”; not yours. Do not follow the multitude (of sinners) to do evil.
Adrian Hinds // January 12, 2009 at 3:46 PM
“Israel” connotes all of the Hebrew and Jewish entities that have existed in the Levant since the invasion of the region as chronicled in the Book of Joshua. As always, geopolitics requires a consideration of three dimensions: the internal geopolitics of Israel, the interaction of Israel and the immediate neighbors who share borders with it, and Israel’s interaction with what we will call great powers, beyond Israel’s borderlands.
Israel’s danger is not a Palestinian rising. Palestinian agitation is an irritant that Israel can manage so long as it does not undermine Israeli unity. Whether it is managed by domination or by granting the Palestinians a vassal state matters little. Nor can Israel be threatened by its neighbors. Even a unified attack by Syria and Egypt would fail, for the reasons discussed. Israel’s real threat, as can be seen in history, lies in the event of internal division and/or a great power, coveting Israel’s geographical position, marshalling force that is beyond its capacity to resist. Even that can be managed if Israel has a patron whose interests involve denying the coast to another power.
Israel’s reality is this. It is a small country, yet must manage threats arising far outside of its region. It can survive only if it maneuvers with great powers commanding enormously greater resources. Israel cannot match the resources and, therefore, it must be constantly clever. There are periods when it is relatively safe because of great power alignments, but its normal condition is one of global unease. No nation can be clever forever, and Israel’s history shows that some form of subordination is inevitable. Indeed, it is to a very limited extent subordinate to the United States now.
For Israel, the retention of a Davidic independence is difficult. Israel’s strategy must be to manage its subordination effectively by dealing with its patron cleverly, as it did with Persia. But cleverness is not a geopolitical concept. It is not permanent, and it is not assured. And that is the perpetual crisis of Jerusalem.
http://www.stratfor.com
Thats why Isreal sought and did not get America’s permission and help in taking out Iran nuclear capabilities. Isreal sees Iran as a large enough power to cause it concern. America needs Iran cooperation in keeping the peace in Iraq.
Adrian Hinds // January 12, 2009 at 4:00 PM
http://www.strafor.com
Israel’s danger is not a Palestinian rising. Palestinian agitation is an irritant that Israel can manage so long as it does not undermine Israeli unity.
rok:
It makes no sense asking Hamas to stop firing rockets because they are not hurting anybody.
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It is believe that weapons are being smuggle from Egypt into Gaza. Eypt does not want to police it’s border neither does it want an international presense there. This Border area also happens to be the best it not the only approach that Egypt can use for a military attack against Israel. It is either that or the Sinai dessert. Some rockets are reaching further and further into Israel than before, and Israel has nuclear facilities that are becoming very close if not already within range of these new rockets. Hamas smuggling tunnels if allowed untouched can be taken over by Egypt to augment it’s troop supply lines in the event of an attack.
Adrian Hinds // January 12, 2009 at 5:31 PM
Israel is located in the Levant. What is the Levant?
The word Levant (Le·VANT) is the name applied to the geographical region, defined by natural frontiers, encompassing the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea from roughly the Isthmus of Suez to the Taurus Mountains, including present-day Israel, Lebanon, western Jordan, the Sinai in Egypt, and that part of Syria defined by the Orontes Valley and the region of Aleppo. It is a more or less heterogeneous region, encompassing an area of about 75,000 square miles, divided into specific areas of diverse ecological and environmental character surprisingly similar to that of southern California.
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The Levant was also important to any empire originating to the north or south of Israel. If Egypt decided to move beyond the Nile Basin and North Africa eastward, it would move first through the Sinai and then northward along the coastal plain, securing sea lanes to Egypt. When Asia Minor powers such as the Ottoman Empire developed, there was a natural tendency to move southward to control the eastern Mediterranean. The Levant is the crossroads of continents, and Israel lies in the path of many imperial ambitions.
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Israel’s danger will come only if a great power seeks to dominate the Mediterranean Basin or to occupy the region between Afghanistan and the Mediterranean. In the short period since the fall of the Soviet Union, this has been impossible. There has been no great power with the appetite and the will for such an adventure. But 15 years is not even a generation, and Israel must measure its history in centuries.
==========================
The threat to Israel rarely comes from the region, except when the Israelis are divided internally. The conquests of Israel occur when powers not adjacent to it begin forming empires. Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, Rome, Turkey and Britain all controlled Israel politically, sometimes for worse and sometimes for better. Each dominated it militarily, but none was a neighbor of Israel. This is a consistent pattern. Israel can resist its neighbors; danger arises when more distant powers begin playing imperial games. Empires can bring force to bear that Israel cannot resist.
======================
Let us then turn to the contemporary manifestation of Israel. Israel was recreated because of the interaction between a regional great power, the Ottoman Empire, and a global power, Great Britain. During its expansionary phase, the Ottoman Empire sought to dominate the eastern Mediterranean as well as both its northern and southern coasts. One thrust went through the Balkans toward central Europe. The other was toward Egypt. Inevitably, this required that the Ottomans secure the Levant.
http://www.stratfor.com
Straight talk // January 12, 2009 at 5:38 PM
So what?
The USA, the land of the free, exporting democracy around the globe, but it seems to baulk whenever the popularly elected regime is not as malleable as they require.
Then the foreigners are not the people’s elected representatives……. they have morphed into terrorists, and must be assassinated as hi-techly as poss.
“If you are not with us you are with the terrorists.”
The most dangerously fascist phrase ever uttered by a “free ” Western leader.
Adrian Hinds // January 12, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Imperial games of the past.
For the British, the focus on the eastern Mediterranean was as the primary sea lane to India. As such, Gibraltar and the Suez were crucial. The importance of the Suez was such that the presence of a hostile, major naval force in the eastern Mediterranean represented a direct threat to British interests. It followed that defeating the Ottoman Empire during World War I and breaking its residual naval power was critical. The British, as was shown at Gallipoli, lacked the resources to break the Ottoman Empire by main force. They resorted to a series of alliances with local forces to undermine the Ottomans. One was an alliance with Bedouin tribes in the Arabian Peninsula; others involved covert agreements with anti-Turkish, Arab interests from the Levant to the Persian Gulf. A third, minor thrust was aligning with Jewish interests globally, particularly those interested in the refounding of Israel. Britain had little interest in this goal, but saw such discussions as part of the process of destabilizing the Ottomans.
The strategy worked. Under an agreement with France, the Ottoman province of Syria was divided into two parts on a line roughly running east-west between the sea and Mount Hermon. The northern part was given to France and divided into Lebanon and a rump Syria entity. The southern part was given to Britain and was called Palestine, after the Ottoman administrative district Filistina. Given the complex politics of the Arabian Peninsula, the British had to find a home for a group of Hashemites, which they located on the east bank of the Jordan River and designated, for want of a better name, the Trans-Jordan — the other side of the Jordan. Palestine looked very much like traditional Israel.
The ideological foundations of Zionism are not our concern here, nor are the pre- and post-World War II migrations of Jews, although those are certainly critical. What is important for purposes of this analysis are two things: First, the British emerged economically and militarily crippled from World War II and unable to retain their global empire, Palestine included. Second, the two global powers that emerged after World War II — the United States and the Soviet Union — were engaged in an intense struggle for the eastern Mediterranean after World War II, as can be seen in the Greek and Turkish issues at that time. Neither wanted to see the British Empire survive, each wanted the Levant, and neither was prepared to make a decisive move to take it.
Both the United States and the Soviet Union saw the re-creation of Israel as an opportunity to introduce their power to the Levant. The Soviets thought they might have some influence over Israel due to ideology. The Americans thought they might have some influence given the role of American Jews in the founding. Neither was thinking particularly clearly about the matter, because neither had truly found its balance after World War II. Both knew the Levant was important, but neither saw the Levant as a central battleground at that moment. Israel slipped through the cracks.
Once the question of Jewish unity was settled through ruthless action by David Ben Gurion’s government, Israel faced a simultaneous threat from all of its immediate neighbors. However, as we have seen, the threat in 1948 was more apparent than real. The northern Levant, Lebanon, was fundamentally disunited — far more interested in regional maritime trade and concerned about control from Damascus. It posed no real threat to Israel. Jordan, settling the eastern bank of the Jordan River, was an outside power that had been transplanted into the region and was more concerned about native Arabs — the Palestinians — than about Israel. The Jordanians secretly collaborated with Israel. Egypt did pose a threat, but its ability to maintain lines of supply across the Sinai was severely limited and its genuine interest in engaging and destroying Israel was more rhetorical than real. As usual, the Egyptians could not afford the level of effort needed to move into the Levant. Syria by itself had a very real interest in Israel’s defeat, but by itself was incapable of decisive action.
The exterior lines of Israel’s neighbors prevented effective, concerted action. Israel’s interior lines permitted efficient deployment and redeployment of force. It was not obvious at the time, but in retrospect we can see that once Israel existed, was united and had even limited military force, its survival was guaranteed. That is, so long as no great power was opposed to its existence.
From its founding until the Camp David Accords re-established the Sinai as a buffer with Egypt, Israel’s strategic problem was this: So long as Egypt was in the Sinai, Israel’s national security requirements outstripped its military capabilities. It could not simultaneously field an army, maintain its civilian economy and produce all the weapons and supplies needed for war. Israel had to align itself with great powers who saw an opportunity to pursue other interests by arming Israel.
Israel’s first patron was the Soviet Union — through Czechoslovakia — which supplied weapons before and after 1948 in the hopes of using Israel to gain a foothold in the eastern Mediterranean. Israel, aware of the risks of losing autonomy, also moved into a relationship with a declining great power that was fighting to retain its empire: France. Struggling to hold onto Algeria and in constant tension with Arabs, France saw Israel as a natural ally. And apart from the operation against Suez in 1956, Israel saw in France a patron that was not in a position to reduce Israeli autonomy. However, with the end of the Algerian war and the realignment of France in the Arab world, Israel became a liability to France and, after 1967, Israel lost French patronage.
Israel did not become a serious ally of the Americans until after 1967. Such an alliance was in the American interest. The United States had, as a strategic imperative, the goal of keeping the Soviet navy out of the Mediterranean or, at least, blocking its unfettered access. That meant that Turkey, controlling the Bosporus, had to be kept in the American bloc. Syria and Iraq shifted policies in the late 1950s and by the mid-1960s had been armed by the Soviets. This made Turkey’s position precarious: If the Soviets pressed from the north while Syria and Iraq pressed from the south, the outcome would be uncertain, to say the least, and the global balance of power was at stake.
The United States used Iran to divert Iraq’s attention. Israel was equally useful in diverting Syria’s attention. So long as Israel threatened Syria from the south, it could not divert its forces to the north. That helped secure Turkey at a relatively low cost in aid and risk. By aligning itself with the interests of a great power, Israel lost some of its room for maneuver: For example, in 1973, it was limited by the United States in what it could do to Egypt. But those limitations aside, it remained autonomous internally and generally free to pursue its strategic interests.
The end of hostilities with Egypt, guaranteed by the Sinai buffer zone, created a new era for Israel. Egypt was restored to its traditional position, Jordan was a marginal power on the east bank, Lebanon was in its normal, unstable mode, and only Syria was a threat. However, it was a threat that Israel could easily deal with. Syria by itself could not threaten the survival of Israel.
Following Camp David (an ironic name), Israel was in its Davidic model, in a somewhat modified sense. Its survival was not at stake. Its problems — the domination of a large, hostile population and managing events in the northern Levant — were subcritical (meaning that, though these were not easy tasks, they did not represent fundamental threats to national survival, so long as Israel retained national unity). When unified, Israel has never been threatened by its neighbors. Geography dictates against it.
Israel’s danger will come only if a great power seeks to dominate the Mediterranean Basin or to occupy the region between Afghanistan and the Mediterranean. In the short period since the fall of the Soviet Union, this has been impossible. There has been no great power with the appetite and the will for such an adventure. But 15 years is not even a generation, and Israel must measure its history in centuries.
It is the nature of the international system to seek balance. The primary reality of the world today is the overwhelming power of the United States. The United States makes few demands on Israel that matter. However, it is the nature of things that the United States threatens the interests of other great powers who, individually weak, will try to form coalitions against it. Inevitably, such coalitions will arise. That will be the next point of danger for Israel.
In the event of a global rivalry, the United States might place onerous requirements on Israel. Alternatively, great powers might move into the Jordan River valley or ally with Syria, move into Lebanon or ally with Israel. The historical attraction of the eastern shore of the Mediterranean would focus the attention of such a power and lead to attempts to assert control over the Mediterranean or create a secure Middle Eastern empire. In either event, or some of the others discussed, it would create a circumstance in which Israel might face a Babylonian catastrophe or be forced into some variation of a Persian or Roman subjugation.
http://www.stratfor.com
Adrian Hinds // January 12, 2009 at 6:56 PM
There are historic lessens to revisit as we look at the global economy, to factor in how,a great power in addition to the US might try to assert influence in the middle east to the point that a WW3 could be started from this location. I doubt that we are anywhere near a WW3 and that the LEVANT is the location where the seed will be sown. Then again if all the efforts of the US government fails to turn around the economy, a world war remains the best practice of yore that has yield the results we are currently hoping for.
I know one NCO i would put on the front lines post haste. ha ha ha ha
WW2 Led to the Brettonwoods accord that saw the US emerge as the dominant world power until this day.
We see the Russian threat of freezing Europe (shut of natural gas) in particular the Ukraine if it does not get a Russian friendly government in Kiev.
We have witness the near silence of Iran, Chavez, and other oil rich Anti American countries that are hemorageing due to the significant fall in oil prices.
We have an economic meltdown started in America by so called SMART INTELLIGENT people that has led to wide fall out around the world. Europe’s economies are said to be worst off as result of these American originated economic problems than the American economy.
So while ww2 led to the turn around in world economies then, I don’t think that there is a global power smarting for clash with the US they think they can reasonably win, or even have the money and wealth to initiate sustain, and come out stronger than they went in.
Adrian Hinds // January 12, 2009 at 7:32 PM
Straight talk // January 12, 2009 at 5:38 pm
So what?
The USA, the land of the free, exporting democracy around the globe, but it seems to baulk whenever the popularly elected regime is not as malleable as they require.
Then the foreigners are not the people’s elected representatives……. they have morphed into terrorists, and must be assassinated as hi-techly as poss.
“If you are not with us you are with the terrorists.”
The most dangerously fascist phrase ever uttered by a “free ” Western leader.
===========================
Help me please i am always a student all be it not a very bright one. And your intervention above has led to Hamas, rockets, and Israel’s milatary response how??????? The possibility of WW3 will occur as a result of the above how???
David // January 13, 2009 at 12:21 AM
Our thanks to BU family member x for sending us the video above.
ace // January 13, 2009 at 11:13 AM
–stamp of disapproval–
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CRAP ! CRAP ! and more CRAP !
CRAP on top ‘o’ CRAP
and CRAP! all over CRAP !
CRAP! all up in CRAP !
and after all that -still more
—–C-R-A-P-
Adrian Hinds // January 13, 2009 at 11:45 AM
Ha ha ha George Galloway. The great Scottish orator. This man can give a good speech lot of emotion, THAT MAKE YOU PAY ATTENTION. Lol!
I first came across George Galloway after reading Thomas Sowell’s book “Black Rednecks and white liberals” where he made reference to the religious oratory skills of American Black Ministers as derivative of Scottish and English immigrants to the antebellum south. George Galloway was not mentioned in the book, but I was intrigue by this comparison and started looking for a Scotsman that could prove or disprove Sowell’s assertion. This is how I came across George and my God what a great orator he was in the British parliament.
Here is what Sowell said in his book.
Sowell begins by tracing the origins of black ghetto culture all the way back to the British Isles from which white American Southerners immigrated in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. These particular immigrants, from the socially turbulent regions of the northern borderlands of England and the HIGHLANDS OF SCOTLAND, brought with them a set of pre-existing attitudes, values and behavioral patterns which, as Sowell points out, had nothing to do with the already existing American institution of slavery. These pre-existing attitudes formed the basis of a “redneck” or “cracker” culture, a culture consisting of “an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship,… AND A STYLE OF RELIGIOUS ORATORY MARKED BY STRIDENT RHETORIC, UNBRIDLED EMOTIONS, AND FLAMBOYANT IMAGERY.” This was passed down to the white Southern descendants of these northern English and Scottish immigrants, and would soon become the cultural heritage of many Southern blacks.
George Galloway (born 16 August 1954 in Dundee) is a British politician, author and talkshow host noted for his socialist views, confrontational style, and RHETORICAL SKILL.
http://www.wikipedia.com
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I must admit that I like to listen to Galloping George, but I think that not being expose to a TV until I was a teenager makes me pay more attention to the words than the delivery, and this is where I find many holes in George’ speech.
…..I am assuming that David added George Galloway’ video to bolster some point or the other, so can we discuss the comments he made? or are we to go away glad, and hand clapping while saying what a great speech?
Hopi // January 13, 2009 at 8:19 PM
@AH…..You are unbelievable. I just couldn’t let you get away with this bilge. How the hell can you, a Black man actually write such drivel in support of these zionists bloodsuckers? Do they put food on your table or is it because you’re being mortgaged. You cut and paste crap crap here, why don’t you come with some clear thinking analysis and stop byting up this space with other people’s drivel. These same terroristic killers supported the killing of your black brothers and sisters in South Africa. They supplied the weapons and ‘intelligence,’ or you don’t give a damn about that! WWII did not pull any world out of depression, it just made the profiteers of war RICHER. ‘We have witness the near silence of Iran…….’ What shite are you speaking of? ‘We have an economic meltdown…….. ‘ Let me tell you a little something, America, the corporation is in bankruptcy and every 75 yrs these bloodsuckers/the bankers most of whom are zionists/jews (You can look that up yourself see who owns all the major banks and ‘federal reserves) come for their pound of flesh. Last time was in 1933, now 2008 they came back for their pound of flesh and their pint of BLOOD. So this is all by DESIGN. If you don’t know the gameplan they would appear smart to you.’You don’t think there’s a global……’ Keep dreaming. Do you know the capabilities of China or Russia? North Korea ‘was/is’ a terrorist regime with nuclear capabilities and flaunted it, why didn’t they go in?
Why you trying to make fun at George Galloway? This man is on point!
Look at that criminal who just MADEOFF with $50b. What is his ethnicity?
You sit back there ha, ha, ha. I hope you have a little 2×3 somewhere on the rock cause Barat and his militia is getting to lay some martial law on your arse. You continue to sit around and laugh. A Black man like you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Adrian Hinds // January 13, 2009 at 9:26 PM
am Hopi is there particular counter point or counter data point, Historical or otherwise that you would like to share with the family, with the hope of leading us to a better understanding of Israel and the LEVANT’s past in the context of this current bloodletting and away from the ones i put up?
I am not going to attempt to deal the rest of your contribution as it doesn’t appear to have much relevance to the topic at hand. :D lol!
I gine and get my sweat. Read you when i get back???? ha ha ha ha lol!
Carson C. Cadogan // January 13, 2009 at 11:11 PM
“Here is a list of most terrorist Israeli officials. Feel free to bombard them with your words of condemnation and pictures of their war crimes. [Hat tip: Shadia]
Shimon Peres (president@president.gov.il); Ehud Olmert – Prime Minister (eulmert@knesset.gov.il); Ehud Barak – Deputy Prime Minister , Minister of Defense (minister@mod.gov.il); Tzipi Livni – Acting Prime Minister , Minister of Foreign Affairs (zlivni@knesset.gov.il); Abraham Dicter – Minister of Internal Security (adichter@knesset.gov.il); Ariel Atias – Minister of Communications (aatias@knesset.gov.il); Binyamin (Fouad) Ben-Eliezer Minister of National Infrastructure(binyaminb@knesset.gov.il); Eli Aflalo – Minister of Immigrant Absorption (eaflalo@knesset.gov.il); Eliyahu Yishai – Deputy Prime Minister , Minister of Industry, Trade, and Labor (eyishay@knesset.gov.il); Gideon Ezra – Minister of Environmental Protection (gezra@knesset.gov.il); Isaac Herzog – Minister of Welfare and Social Services.”
For photos of Israel’s Genocide, visit Sabbah’s blog:-
http://sabbah.biz/mt/
Carson C. Cadogan // January 13, 2009 at 11:16 PM
“Here is a list of most terrorist Israeli officials. Feel free to bombard them with your words of condemnation and pictures of their war crimes. [Hat tip: Shadia]
Shimon Peres (president@president.gov.il); Ehud Olmert – Prime Minister (eulmert@knesset.gov.il); Ehud Barak – Deputy Prime Minister , Minister of Defense (minister@mod.gov.il); Tzipi Livni – Acting Prime Minister , Minister of Foreign Affairs (zlivni@knesset.gov.il); Abraham Dicter – Minister of Internal Security (adichter@knesset.gov.il); Ariel Atias – Minister of Communications (aatias@knesset.gov.il); Binyamin (Fouad) Ben-Eliezer Minister of National Infrastructure(binyaminb@knesset.gov.il); Eli Aflalo – Minister of Immigrant Absorption (eaflalo@knesset.gov.il); Eliyahu Yishai – Deputy Prime Minister , Minister of Industry, Trade, and Labor (eyishay@knesset.gov.il); Gideon Ezra – Minister of Environmental Protection (gezra@knesset.gov.il); Isaac Herzog – Minister of Welfare and Social Services”
Visit Sabbah’s blog for photos of Israel’s genocide:-
http://sabbah.biz/mt/
Carlos // January 13, 2009 at 11:21 PM
Adrian Hinds’ post from http://www.starfor.com as a dear friend and ‘black’ brother of mine said:
“The propagandistic LIES and HALF truths stated as facts and as exposes against what is the REAL TRUTH faily make the blood boil…red herring distractions by the bushel on tangential points…strawmen nailed to and set up on suitable crosses (now, like the Appian way after the Spartacus slave rebellion, by the legion), ALL duly soaked in oil of slanderous ad hominems…Ignite same to distract from the tract of TRUTH, and to so cloud and poison the atmosphere that the resulting polarisation of the public who DON’T realise what is going on, makes it impossible for mant to see, or listen to the TRUTH.”
Is This The Start Of World War III?
The brother offers the following brief comments of this:
“Wrong on all counts: this is the ONGOING WW IV, ever since 1979 with the rise to Iranian Mahdism sitting on the oil carotidartery Persian Gulf with tyrannical C7 mindset control of a state that was even then at the nuke threshold. And that was due to a foreign policy failure of Jimmy Carter, not exactly a republican.”
“If you don’t know about the BLACK FLAG from Khorasan hadiths you don’t understand today’s headlines and affairs.”
“Similarly, if you don’t know the significance of the year 1929 and the names Chaim Weismann and Feisal Hussein, you cannot correctly understand the course of events since then.”
“Bluntly, we are dealing with competing ME-based nationalisms, compounded by the issue of Islamist global intent to dominate, not a reprise of Western colonialism and associated racism.”
“Indeed, the real racism at work- note that Arabs etc., are 20% of Israel’s population and enjoy equality of rights before the law { with sole exception that such are NOT subject to conscrption} — is manifestly Arabic, targeting Jews, Chaldeans, Kurds, Berbers and other minorities all across the ME, and of course in the Sudan black Africans. It is compounded by the bigotry of Islamist supremacism.”
“The 1919 post WWI settlements tried to settle such disputes by recognising minorities as nations, rather than as subject peoples of empires, insofar as reasonably possible. This is where the global wave of independence movements actually stem from; colonialism died from mortal wounds administered at Versailles.”
“The Weismann- Feisal agreement sought a just Middle East settlement based on nationhood and historical roots, leading to collaboration in mutually supportive development. It was destroyed by the perfidy of European diplomatists on the one hand, and by hateful Islamist bigots on the other, starting with the Mufti of Jerusalem.”
“Had the 1919 agreement been followed, the Jews who perished in Hitler’s holocaust, their treasures and talents would have joined with Arab oil and would have built a paradise in the Modern Middle East; but forces of chaos driven by envy and selfish ambition would have nothing of that.”
‘Bush Tea has noted the ominous silence of the BU family on the most recent events in the middle east, where the brilliantly logical Israeli’s are again employing their often tried tactic of bombing and killing their neighbours into co-operation.’
The brother continues his sound analysis:
“Tries the fallacy of moral equivalency: there is NO way that a decent, informed person can properly equate years of harassing artillery fire (rockets and mortar bombs) targetting civilians with surgical strikes that do kill some civilians, because the bombers of civilians hide behind their own civilians, to exploit their deaths for propaganda purposes. So BT and BU disqualify themselves from civil discourse at the outset. Clearly, their strategists are banking on the hope that this approach MUST work eventually – especially after decades of failure.”(Submitted on January 1, 2009 but was not picked-up by BU, sorry about that Bush Tea – David).
“First, we should note that the first such attempts were: (1) the Syrians’ use of the Golan heights to bombard Galilee for 20 years, and (2) the Egyptian fostering of the first ‘terrorist’ groups from Gaza, by 1967, egged on by a USSR with its own ambitions, these states surrounded Israel with an iron ring of tanks, troops and blockades, which was broken by a desperate air strike against air bases and improvised armoured thrust in the Sinai (putting up reconditioned WWII Sherman tanks and a few reconditioned cast off Pattons and centurions against Soviet designs that were successors to the ones that defeated the German tanks that routinely made mincemeat of Shermans from North Africa to France).
“Then Israel stopped the Jordanian bombardment of its cities and in the process, unwillingly captured East Jerusalem and the West Bank; they then pushed north against Syria and took out the heights.”
“In 1973, they held on and as a result they stopped both the Fedayeen attacks and the artillery bombardment of civilians in the north. In any reasonable account that stands as success, success not gained by targetting civilians, but apposed militaries.”
{BU, Clearly this is a situation, which has been refined by the US republican party}
“Red herring.”
{BU, where in the lead-up to a national election).
“US election was in November.”
{BU, Unpopular governments seek to rally national support for a ‘war’ against some unfortuante common foe- preferebly someone who can be labelled a ‘terrorist’.
“Hamas is demonstrably a ‘terrorist’ organisation, which brought retribution on its head by re-starting rocket bombardment of civilians, instead of renewing a truce. This is consistent with eh hudna – temporay truce to rearm – concept of Islam, where there is no PEACE with those who are enemies of Islam, only at most a 10 year truce. It is only because in recent centuries Islamic powers have not had the strength to carry such out, that there has been a relative cessation of the global Jihad that started in C7.”
{BU, The Israeli plan is obviously to build up the usual hype, kill a few Hamas ‘terrorist’}
“Fallacy of moral equivalency and refusal to accept the truth about the evils of the side one plainly supports. So is it the case that BU and BT support the artillery bombardment of civilians? Let us know the truth and their collateral family members.
“There is no evidence that Israel deliberatly targets civilians, but the converse, that they have taken extraordinary measures to avoid civilian casualities, indeed the report is they warned the said terrorist most recently killed to leave his house first, he did not and died with wives and children kept there AS HUMAN SHIELDS. A further, routine Hamas war crime by the way, behind whom they are hiding (in their homes). You admit it!”
{BU, and wait for the USA to protect them in the UN while face saving ‘truce’ is negotiated).
“The truces have more served Hamas’ interest than Israel’s; cf the Hudna concept again.”
{BU The ruling party now confirmed at home and by the USA as ’strong on terror.’}
“Kadima is probably a lost cause. If the US were supporting the pary strongest on terror in Israel, it would support Likud or one of its sub-parties. But in fact, the US has respected the democratic process in Israel. Hamas – seized power in Gaza coup in 2005 (having won the elections),”
{BU, and ‘able to protect the country’ would then be re-elected. That is the plan. Here is the reality.
“And where do you come to know the plan? Or is this not Protocols of the Elders of Zion, 2009 edition?
{BU, The current operation by Israel is going to finally bring militant Palestinian forces together. ( This happened 2 years ago in Lebanon for Hezbollah – but that seem to have been forgotton by Israel – or maybe the incumbent party REALLY desparate).
“Red herring and in fact false: Abbas has actually hoped Israel would knock out Hamas, per evidence in hand.”
“If Israel has enough time, it will break the military power of Hamas and so shift the balance of Arab Islamic opinion that the fusion of Islamist extremists and Mahdist eschatological hopes per the Black Flag Hadiths will be posponed as they have been century after century. Cf here the result of the Jan III Sobiesky – led cavalry xharge outside the gates of Vienna, Sept 12, 1683 (which is why the Sept 11, 201 attacks were on the anniversary of the previous high water mark of Islamist militancy…the day before its decisive defeat). Militant Islamism can only strategically defeated.”
{BU, This will result in the overthrow – this year – of ALL the pro-western governments in the region – Egypt, Saudi Arabia…ALL…}
“If B Hussein Obama pulls off a Carter 1979, that is possible but that would only surface the underlying Islamist militancy, and galvanize the Mahdist expectations in its cause. Where that leads is Ezekiel 35-39; the ultimate defeat at the hands of God on the mountains of Israel.”
{BU A VERY powerful strongman will then emerge, powered by the unifying force generated by this current (and previous) Israeli action}
“Yep, a would-be Mahdi, as doubtless Bin Laden hoped to be in Sept 2001.”
{BU, by the USA’s Iraq debacle}
“A “debacle” that defeated a mad dictator and stopped the rise of Iraqi nuke armed aggression, then induced the Libyans to surrender their Iraqi offshore programme and has led to the emergence of a better Iraqi state than the one that murdered 300,000 Iraqis. One that has bled white the Islamist armies that flocked thereto to overthrow what was emerging- a realistic free democratic state of Iraq as a beacon of hope in the Middle East – and then has now rolled back the terror campaign that followed that flocking to Iraq. An Iraq that if your counsels were followed, would descend into a dark night of barbarism, and re-emerge with nuke arms, as a province of an Iran led by a pretender to Mahdi status, by control of huge oil reserves, access to very sophisticated weapons.”
“Well now, you come out and admit to the nuke etc ambitions of Iraq, Iran and Syria et al, don’t you! What would be the predictable consequences of arming such states with such weapons? Does it look better or worse than the current situation, in your opinion, why?
“In short, multiply such nukes by the Mahdist Black Flag army visions and see where that leads. Do you not think that action to avert such a trend – even it it may yet fail – is a worthwhile effort? Or, are you one who refuses to trouble himself to think through the realistic issues and alternatives we face in a fallen world?”
“Or, are you a fifth columnist worming his way into our confidence and sapping our will to resist an ideology that from C7 has proclaimed its global ambitions plainly and publicly, now backed up by 13 centuries of history you seem loathe to learn from.”
Hopi // January 13, 2009 at 11:34 PM
Satan to the aid of Sin.
ru4real // January 13, 2009 at 11:51 PM
Fool // January 12, 2009 at 2:08 pm
and it’s all the Jews fault.
Hatred of Jews is rampant at this site, led by Green Monkey and David BU. But at BU dating back to its links to antisemitic sites.
When BU is finished Barbados will hate Jews (more). Thank you BU for sowing the seeds of hatred towards foreigners and minorities, including Jews.
————————————-
Only if they are fools
I think the people sowing this hatred are seriously disturbed people and their remarks ( about from showing up the IQ of a flea) are most likely to repel normal sensible Barbadians.
Adrian Hinds // January 14, 2009 at 12:29 AM
Carlos, I am none the wiser after reading your contribution. You type my name, made reference to the source of historical data points i put up, and proceed to quote from A BROTHER OF YOURS, some statement about propaganda and half truths and Straw men etc. You then continue to quote from This Brother and end your contribution without refuting one data point i put up. Question fuh you! HOW DO I KNOW THAT YOUR “BROTHER” OF WHOM YOU QUOTE SO EXTENSIVELY, HOW ARE WE TO KNOW THAT this “BROTHER” ISN’T A STRAWMAN HIMSELF? AM I TO SIMPLY TRUST YOU?
We are in WW4? What defines a World war? and what war/s can be concidered as world war three by this definition? Bush said the war on terror is world war 3 but I don’t think many people buy into that.
Not Saved // January 14, 2009 at 12:39 AM
If I am critical of the US for its illegal invasion of Iraq and its war crimes does that mean I hate americans?
am I “sowing hatred” ?
Adrian Hinds // January 14, 2009 at 12:43 AM
Hopi // January 13, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Satan to the aid of Sin.
==========================
Hopi you calling me Satan? If so I shall see you some day, yes? ha ha ha ha ha
Carlos // January 14, 2009 at 9:41 AM
Adrian, I don’t think HOPI was referring to you, “Satan to the aid of Sin.”
But, yes, ‘Satan to the aid of Sin’ is correct as he is the ‘FATHER OF ALL LIES’ Allah, masquerading as god.
Anti -Semitism has been a relentless fact of the history of the Jewish people, from their inception for over 3, 700 years, ever since Almighty God, the Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, declared His Sovereign intent to ‘bless’ all nations and people, through the ’seed’ of Abraham, ultimately fulfilled in Messiah, The Lord Jesus Christ.
Of course, this cannot be understood nor fathomed by those who have chosen to reject God’s Word, as Satan has blinded the minds of those who love not the ‘Truth’ and are therefore unable to discern the spiritual reality of what has been unfolding for centuries, exactly as foretold in God’s Word.
AH, I don’t deal in deception or ‘Strawmen’ I detest liars and deception, and have Zero tolerance for ‘intellectual dishonesty’ which is patently demonstrated here on BU!
Here are a few quotes as taken from MSA three-translation Quran, Surah 9:
SWORD VERSE:
009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then FIGHT and SLAY the Pagans wherever ye FIND THEM, and SEIZE them, beleaguer them, and LIE IN WAIT in every strategem (0f war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
VERSE OF TRIBUTE
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who BELIEVE NOT in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
As my dear friend and ‘black’ brother so correctly says:
“Do you need details of what that means from 13 centuries of bloody and painful history? [Just research the topic Dhimmitude and learn from world expert on that, bat Y'eor. A scholar who dares not give out her real name, even when she occasionally lets us see her face. For, she still must have family in Egypt, within reach of the Muslim Brotherhood and other champions of "liberation". BTW, Hamas is the Gazan wing of said brotherhood.]
“Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, BT and BU; and under the Islamic theology doctrine of abrogation, this last or last but one Surah abrogates and replaces all Irenic texts from the Meccan period when Mohammed did not have an army to back up his assertions and carry out his wishes. And ideology fuelled by revenge.
“He hit back first” is not a justification for “revenge.”
“Here we see that BT and BU utterly fail to understand Global Islamist agression since C7, much less, current Mahdist hopes and war.”
“Just what type of war BT and BU? Is it not JIHAD to subjugate dar ul Harb under the domination of Dar ul Islam, and reduce ALL under the status of ‘Sharia’, i.e., make us at best Dhimmis, or slaves, or simply dead?”
“Kindly explain how in recent decades sweet reason would have dissuaded A Hitler or a Stalin, or Stalin’s heirs. In fact it was refusal to stand up to the rising storm when it was relatively weak, that led to the bitter, costly wars that contained , then returned back these global threats in WWI and the undeclared WWII respectively.”
“Do you prefer to have to confront a ‘nuke’ aemed Caliphate-cum Mahdi empire sitting on the world’s oil jugular? Or do you prefer to surrender into Dhimmitude and slavery instead? [Note, abolition of slavery in the West came directly out of the rise of widespread access to the Bible and its Gospel ethics; it was by and large imposed on Islamic states from without, and continues to this day in the shadows.}”
Here are a few reminders of ‘Institutionalized Anti-Semitism.
“The Resurrection of the dead will not come until the Muslims will WAR with the Jews and the Muslims will KILL them…the trees and rocks will say, ‘O Muslim, here is a Jew behind me, come and KILL HIM’” (The Prophet Mohammad).
“The power struggle between Israel and Arabs is a long-term historical trial. Victory or defeat are for us questions of EXISTENCE or ANNIHILATION, the outcome of an irreconcilable hatred.” (Al Riyadh Saud, Founder of The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia).
“The war is open until Israel CEASES TO EXIST and until the last Jew in the world is eliminated.” (Hamas Leader).
You supporters of “Hamas’ and other Terrorists, Islamic Jihadists, have obviously NOT thought this crisis through properly, the historic ‘facts’ are all there emphatically showing the diabolic, satanic, hatred for the Jews, and thier right to ‘exist’ which is vehemently DENIED by the Islamists.
So, does Isreal, have any other option but to defend themselves against the historic INTENT of Islam to destroy and annihilate them off the face of the earth?
Not Saved // January 14, 2009 at 10:06 AM
Carlos,
have christians ever been anti semitic or just the muslims?
Adrian Hinds // January 14, 2009 at 10:39 AM
Carlos i continue to be confuse by your contributions here. Are you taking issue with my quotes from Stratfor?
Carlos // January 14, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Adrian, no, my last post was essentially dealing with Bush Tea, BU and obviously others who are clearly Anti-Semitic, and ignorant to the historic reality of this ancient conflict, OR have wilfully chosen NOT to reason, on the basis of sound, objective, critical thinking, re the hard facts!
Hopi // January 14, 2009 at 12:49 PM
@AH… Actually, Carloss=Satan, You=Sin. But won’t that be some honourable company!
Adrian Hinds // January 14, 2009 at 1:12 PM
@Carlos: Thanks for the clarification, i just wanted to be absolutely sure of what i was reading.
@Hopi: I can tell you didn’t like math at school. :) If Carlos and I share some of the same properties then you and I “aint gine add up”. I gine apply some long division to your comments so that you can see the zero’s in your thoughts. lol!
Hopi // January 14, 2009 at 1:55 PM
@AH……No need to ‘play yaself.’ Somewhere,somehow,something got lost in translation. It has nothing to do with your bogus numbering system, more like chemistry i.e combining like qualities for the perfect solution i.e satan+sin. Still does not negate the fact that you should be ashamed of yourself as a BLACK Man.
Adrian Hinds // January 14, 2009 at 3:14 PM
@Hopi
ha ha ha ha ha Hopi if you only knew how much I love myself you would see that it is hopeless that i could ever feel shame, all by myself, about myself. But tell me more about this group (black man) that you have place me in. Is entry define by skin color only? and once i am in i am not allowed to think for myself, or gravitate towards those opinions that i believe are defined by history, and other events that can be checked and varified? Who is pulling the thought processs string of the Black man? Galloping George Galloway? From your earlier comments it seems to me that if i had agreed with him you would not have called my “blackness” into question.
Hopi // January 14, 2009 at 4:10 PM
@AH… I called your melanin into to question because of your support for the zionist beasthood. I actually thought of offering you an OLIVE branch, but on 2nd thought I take that back since your blood-letting friend has bulldozed them all. I wish you true enlightenment.
Adrian Hinds // January 14, 2009 at 4:48 PM
Hopi // January 14, 2009 at 4:10 pm
@AH… I called your melanin into to question because of your support for the zionist beasthood. I actually thought of offering you an OLIVE branch, but on 2nd thought I take that back since your blood-letting friend has bulldozed them all. I wish you true enlightenment.
===========================
wuh sound real powerfull though nuh!
.I called your ……..into question!
.I thought of ……an olive branck!
.I wish you true enlightement!
…but tell me how you have gathered from comments thus far in this thread that i support the Zionist beasthood?????
Anonymous // January 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM
@ Carlos…
Can you tell me if these quotes are lies or half-truths?
You can also ask your ‘brother’.
MORE QUOTES…
“We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
– David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
– Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
– David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
– David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”
– David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).
David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 – 1954,
1955 – 1963
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
– Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.”
– Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
“Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen.”
– Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961
“This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.”
– Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 – 1974
“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”
– Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
“[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.”
– Yitzhak Rabin (a “Prince of Peace” by Clinton’s standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen’s remarks to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 – 1977,
1992 – 1995
“[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”
– Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”‘ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”
– Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 – 1983
“The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country.”
– Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
“The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”
– Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.
“(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
– Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 – 1984,
1986 – 1992
“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
– Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 – 1999
“The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”….
– Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time – August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
“If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”
– Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
“I would have joined a terrorist organization.”
– Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 – 2001
“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
– Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
– Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”
– Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 – present
Fool // January 14, 2009 at 7:24 PM
So what do you wish to do: Drive out the Israelis, or make peace by compromise and to live side by side?
You can go back as far as your Nahkba and still fight, or you can come to the modern world and take care of the citizens and humans who you *say* you care about. Which is it?
It is a miracle that no more than 1000 human beings have so far been killed in the Gaza conflict. Will you help kill millions in this futile effort, sacrifice those who you have saved and bred for death in your refugee camps all this time, never offering them a place in the limitless, oil-rich Arabian world??
Are you too not also part of the terminal problems in the Middle East?
Can you stomach touching something that a Jew also touched? Do you think that your kind and your ways are somehow cleaner and better than anyone else’s?
Do you not teach the same things that you point to above (out of their contexts), don’t you say *kill the Jews*, *drive them out* in your prayer meetings, in your Palestinian schools daily, in many places? Do you say it here? Do you wish to make a Jewish problem *here* and then find a *solution*?
You go back drawing from aged texts without context or reasoning: Where is Israel on your maps?
Did Arafat not ratify the Israel-less maps in the textboooks, those without Israel, at the same time he was supposedly making peace at Oslo? Didn’t his successors reprint them with even less conciliatory text?
Do Israelis teach ethnic cleansing of Palestinians? The same way that Palestinians are teaching their children ethnic cleansing of Israelis?
By what road to peace– war until victory, or war until eternity?
ROK // January 14, 2009 at 7:38 PM
@Fool
What did the Israelis do when they came?
@Anonymous
You should also let Carlos know that there is a fairly substantial lobby in Israel against this aggression and it is spreading fast.
Israeli citizens are saying that their Government is taking their country to extinction. All they are seeing is obliteration from the face of the earth.
Of course, Israeli Government is not letting us see the demonstrations going on. Not sure what the army is doing to quell them, but they are highly vocal and swelling according to reports reaching me from Israeli citizens themselves.
I will send out another query and see if I get an answer, but my NGO counterparts are mobilising on the ground. Will let you know. I would not be surprised that the casualties they may be showing as Palestinian attacks, may very well be Israeli attacks on its own citizens.
Only me // January 14, 2009 at 8:12 PM
I think BT is spot on in this article and i also think a third world war is on the Horizon
David // January 14, 2009 at 8:15 PM
The BU family maybe interested in this report which speaks to the USA abstention on the UN vote recently. Interesting huh?
Thanks to BU family member for the email
another view // January 14, 2009 at 8:25 PM
not a third world war……….but the very last war………ARMAGEDDON
Technician // January 14, 2009 at 10:15 PM
No one……like Carlos, Another view and others of this ilk seem to think that Israelis LIE!!
The post with the quotes are mine, done while @ work so that is where the anon comes from. These quotes are not out of context but shows that the mentality of annihilation in present on both sides of this conflict.
We can talk of Biblical prophecies or who took whose land….at the end of the day….it is the injustices that causes people to react.
Carlos // January 14, 2009 at 11:05 PM
Anonymous, in reply to your question:
“Can you tell me if these quotes are lies or half truths?
I have no doubt that there are reported accurately; but that’s not the point, which you and those of your ilk, JUST will not come to grips with, and what is it?
First, these various quotes from a number of former Israeli leaders, (c.1937-2000) or maybe even more recent, however vile they maybe, can only be honestly, fairly, and logically understood, against the historic background of the Islamic mindset that started with the Prophet Mohammed in the 7th century, and has NEVER stopped, repeatedly condemning the Jews, who were lawful citizens for hundreds and hundreds of years, throughout the Arab world, bearing the terrible of hostility, in the most inhumane of ways, subjected to the vilest of attacks, all documented for any honest person to invistigate, until, they finally were given their ancient ‘homeland’ in 1948.
The Jews had no where to call their ‘homeland’ during these centuries of dispersion in Arab countries, and suffered terribly at the hands of these Islamic haters, who siezed every opportunity to tortue, malign and kill them.
Despite the record, modern Arab claims to the contrary have been allowed to supplant the facts.
Here are a few excerpts from some school books in Arab countries, regarding the Jews:
“The Jews…lived exiled and despised since by nature they are vile, greedy, and enemies of mankind. (Syrian second-year junior high school testbook, 1963-1964).
“Jordan, 1964 department for school curricula and textbooks, for first-year high school: Glances at Arab Society, p.117. An exercise: “Israel was born TO DIE, Prove it.”
“Syria, 1963, fifth-year elementary school: Basic Syntax and Spelling. An exercise: ‘We Shall Expel ALL the Jews.” For example, ‘Analyze the following sentences: 1. The merchant himself travelled to the African continent. 2. We shall expel ALL the Jews from the Arab countries.”
“Egyppt, 1965, Egyptian State Seal, for first-year junior high school: Grammar, p. 244. An exercise: ‘The Arabs do NOT CEASE to act for the EXTERMINATION of Esrael.”
“U.A.R. (Egypt), for ninth-grade secondary schools: Zionist Imperialism, by Abbad Muhmud Al-Akkad, p. 249, ‘…Israel hopes to be the homeland of the Jews, and they have the stubbornness of 4,000 years of history behind them. But Israel SHALL NOT live if the Arabs stand fast in their HATRED. She shall wither and decline. Even if ALL the human race, and the Devil in Hell, conspire to aid her, she SHALL NOT EXIST.” emphasis added.
(From Time Immemorial, The Origins Of The Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine).
‘The anti-Semitic literature published by the Arabs since World War II has been voluminous, and is continually increasing, despite the almost total evacuation of the Arab world’s Jews.”
“The virulence of this literature is disturbing, but even more significant is the official or governmental origin of the publications – not from an extremist fringe, which might be lightly dismissed, but from Arab governments, including those called ‘moderate.’ ” (Ibid., p.79).
The next quote, is vitally important, as contrary to what is believed, that the Jews in Israel came from European countries, which IS most certainly not the truth.
“Arab propaganda and sympathizers have persisted in the charge that Israel is a foreign putpost of Western civilization, the intruding offspring of Europe inhabited by European survivors of Nazi brutality. In actuality, more than half of the people in Israel today are Jews or offspring of Jews who lived in Arab countries and have FLED from Arab brutality; Israel’s present population consists mainly of refugees and their descendants from two OPPRESSIONS, European-Nazi and Arabs. as the Arab writer Sabri Jiris has acknowledged, either by official edit or by the Arab’s own HARSH mistreatment of the Jews among them, the Arab world HAS EXPELLED or has caused Jews to flee to Israel. Were the facts popularly recognized, the Arab propaganda claim of a ‘European’ Israel would long ago have been refuted. The Arabs have long helped to make the Jewish state predominantly an ‘Oriental’ Israel of Jews from Arab lands.” (Ibid., p.79) emphasis added.
Tomorrow, I’ll give you some more ‘historic’ facts on this particular aspect of where the Jews had to ‘run’ from, or were ‘kicked’ out of, in coming to their homeland, which the Arabs detest, and teach their junior school children to ‘HATE’ as they must be exterminated from the earth!
Technician // January 14, 2009 at 11:27 PM
We can go on and on,back and forth, so dont bother.
You see…unlike you (and a Christian at that)…..I will not sit here and say Hamas does not carry blame in this conflict.
I think some, if not most of their actions are wrong but what I will try to do is look at the collective problem and speak where I see disproportionate or unnecessary destruction or force being used by either side.
What you seem unable to deal with, is that Israelis do WRONG and LIE just like Hamas or any other race on this planet.
When you can come to the table with honesty and stop trying to place the blame squarely on Hamas, then you will be taken seriously, until then your Bible stories and HIStory lessons, however informative, come across as just biased rhetoric from a sympathizer.
Carlos // January 14, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Technician, come now and lets reason this out, for what you say, IS not logical, fair, nor true, is simply does NOT make sense!
First, you state:
“These quotes are not out of context, but shows that the mentality of ANNIHILATION is present on both sides of this conflict.”
It is an HISTORIC fact, as the records show, THAT the hatred for the Jews, and the Islamic INTENT going way back to Prophet Mohammed in the 7th century, ALL there in the Koran, IS to KILL them any and every where, ANNIHILATION!!!
This kind of VILE, demonic hatred, IS not recorded as coming from the Jews, historically, towards the Muslims, and they the Jews, had every right to feel this way, as they were BRUTIALLY mistreated, not only during the centuries of dispersion in Arab lands, where they were ‘lawful’ citizens; not to mention, which I’ll deal with tomorrow, how they had to literally run from these Arab states, leaving their properties, land, etc, prevented by the Arab states from ’selling’ them, and so on.
The entire concept of ANNIHILATION of one group, against another, came from the Muslims, emanating from the ‘Koran’ and Mohammed in the 7th century, long before the new homeland for the Jews came into being, in 1917, The Balfour Declaration.
So that if some of the former and most recent Israeli leaders, have after CENTURIES of utter humiliation, hatred, and KILLING of their own people by Islamic states, NOW, express the same kind of anger and hatred toward the Muslims, as you quoted, can you reasonably expect otherwise? Hardly!
But, the point I want to stress, is this; the state of Israel HAS enough nuclear warheads, for many years, to WIPE all Arab capitals off the face of the earth. YET, she has never even attempted to exercise but a ‘fraction’ of her military might, in fact, whenever she does retalitate, IT IS always from the AGRESSION of the Arabs, as occured in the 1948-49, 1956, 1967, 1973 wars, ALL of which were started by the Arabs, to ANNIHILATE Israel off the earth.
Right now, Israel could ‘nuke’ them, BUT, she does not.
Whereas, IF ‘Hamas’ or Hezbollah, Syria or Iran, has the ‘nuke’ power of Israel, she would NOT be in existence.
To you follow the logic of what I’m saying? Can you reason this out.
Who are the real ‘Terrorist’ here and historically for the past 700 hundred years. Who has persecuted who, for 700 hundred years, and STILL continue to persecute who?
The ‘ARABS’ are due what they are getting now; yes, my heart goes out to the civilian population of Gaza, its terrible, to say the least, BUT, who HAS caused it, ‘Hamas’ backed by Iran, and what’s worst, Hamas ‘hide’ and use the civil popualtion as ’shields’ I cannot fathom how they can do this; why NOT come out like ‘men’ and face the Israli’s instead of hiding behind innocent men, women and children. COWARDS, evil, wicked COWARDS!
Carlos // January 15, 2009 at 12:16 AM
Technician, you obviously DO NOT know the ‘history’ of the Jews, and the VILE, ungodly intent of Islam, especially the Jihadists, like Bin Laden, Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran, and the mandate they feel they have from ‘Allah’ to convert and control the entire world, either through (us) willingly ’submitting’ to Islam, OR, by FORCE. Can this be of a god of love?
Jesus said,’.. love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you…; Allah and Mohammed on the other hand say; ‘Kill the Jew and Christian’ can you reconcile these two diametrically opposed teachings?
Which one is of the ‘True’ and Living God?
Go any seriously ponder that; and try and do some reading on the historic facts on this ancient mess.
Technician // January 15, 2009 at 1:21 AM
Wow……
Was that your idea of reasoning???
I think you have RANTING, RAVING and REASONING mixed up .
The same spin you put on the Arabs, one could easily put on the Crusades by the Catholic church…..and they were using the Bible too.
Does every Muslim have to be vile or a terrrorist, if as you say , their God is Satan?
Didnt the Catholic church want to control the world also? By force and murders….can this be a God of love?
Wasnt it Bush who said …you are either with us or against us? Was that a christian speaking or a Muslim?
The problem with the Israelis and the Arabs is that one has the means and is doing it while the other wishes they had …….six is half dozen!!
So , since you are the expert on this and nothing you say is wrong…I stand corrected and humbly apologise for evoking your ire.
Guess we will just have to wait for this broadway musical to play out.
Fool // January 15, 2009 at 9:26 AM
1) By what road to peace– war until victory, or war until eternity?
This is what Osama Bin Laden said yesterday: that there would be holy war until the Jews were exterminated.
2) I back up my statements above about teaching the Palestinian children holy war and the extermination of the Jews; at the following website that monitors the Palestinian media and school text books.
http://www.pmw.org.il/
3) When shown that there was an antisemitic site on its bloglist, BU chose to ask its readership whether it was antiSemitic or not. Therefore David *is* anti-Semitic, because he never did admit, nor will he ever admit, that he linked to an anti-Semitic site. So that is how I know. It is hard for me to say this but true. So David, did you actually read the site, as that is your only defence?
4) BU is caught in its own trap, a DLP friendly blog, one that cannot call its interests to account over the election promises. After 1 year still no declaration of assets from the government, and so logically there never will be one.
Also the promnise to bring legislation to curb the corruption.
Meanwhile public funds gone to *missing* houses that may well prove to be someone’s family’s house and apartments for rent.
That’s the nice cozy feedbag that is being transferred while we wait, hope and pray for integrity 1 year hence. And the reason I say this here is because I am not afraid to tell the truth. If someone says they will do something their word is their bond, and that is how I live my own small life.
One more thought: only fools talk with fools.
I’m a fool because I’m talking on an anti-Semitic blog, which is why I chose this name (knowing this to be a fact), but those who talk to me are also fools!
Dissident // January 15, 2009 at 11:24 AM
Technician: “Didn’t the Catholic church want to control the world also? By force and murders….can this be a God of love?: ”
Technician, how do you make the rational jump from the ‘Catholic Church’ to ‘can this be a God of love’? You appear to be assuming that the Catholic Church and God are one. Wrong!
You are trying to make the upward leap from the phenomenal to the noumenal [a la Immanuel Kant]. Sorry, can’t be done!
God was conspicuously absent from the medieval Roman Catholic church, the period in history to which you are referring.
Carlos // January 15, 2009 at 11:59 AM
Technician:
I do not say this to insult you; but like most others, attempting to deal with this Israeli/Palestinian conflict; you are ‘IGNORANT’ and I used the word advisedly, meaning, ‘lacking knowledge and understanding’ because this issue did NOT start in 1967, with the Six-Day War, or for that matter in 1948.
This issue IS over 3,700 years old, and unless one has, at least a cursory knowledge and grasp of the Biblical, Historical, and most importantly, the ‘Spiritual’ reality behind this conflict, one is most apt, to make a ‘fool’ of oneself, as is the case with you, and most others.
Regarding the Roman Catholic church, which is my pet subject, by the way; this ‘Political/Religious Institution, IS, the most, wicked, evil, tyrannical, entity, ever to be granted existence on God’s earth. Masquerading as the ‘One’ true Church, which has caused more harm and disgrace to the cause of ‘Christ’ and His true Church, like no other has.
Roman Catholicism, IS NOT synonymous with ‘Christianity’ as most believe it to be, she IS the ‘Whore’ of Revelation chapter 17, verses 1-18. Read it for yourself.
I was intimately connected to the RC church, almost became a Catholic, I know what I’m talking about, have studied this ’system’ intently for over 20 years; some of the nicest people I know are Catholics, Priest, etc., BUT, they are terribly deceived, as most of humanity are.
Not Saved // January 15, 2009 at 3:19 PM
you mean he lacks YOUR understanding
ever thought maybe you might be deceived?
Not Saved // January 15, 2009 at 3:20 PM
always incredible to watch religions fight each other over who is the most peaceful
Not Saved // January 15, 2009 at 3:22 PM
the most remarkable thing about a believer is how he is apt to explain why every other belief but is own is wrong !
will the believers never understand that his arguments apply equally to themselves?
Not Saved // January 15, 2009 at 3:23 PM
please tell me carlos, of the many (hundreds) versions of christianity which is indeed the “true” version?
help me for I am “not saved”
Adrian Hinds // January 15, 2009 at 5:28 PM
I am not going to get caught up in the Zionist argument etc. The facts for me is that Israel has existed in one form or the other for a very long time. It has existed in a location that has proven to be of goeopolitical importance to countries that have broad ambitions, and at the same time to other countries wanting to deny those ambitions. This has led to Israel being overun by one empire or the other in three of it’s four manifestations. At some point the question had to be asked and pondered, How do we resist being overun, invaded etc. . It is in the context of this question, and the reference to this latest conflict as the possible start to ww3 that i offered those quotes from Stratfor. Israel’s borders today right or wrong was born out of this necessity. I see similarities to why America purchase the French quarter, and Alaska, and why Russia is willing to freeze Europe until it get a Russian friendly government in Kiev. Russia’s only real viable military base/fleet, is in the Ukraine. Geography is everthing and then some. Even why China will not let go of Tiawan.
Technician // January 15, 2009 at 5:56 PM
OMG !!!
I am ignorant?????
Because I do not subscribe to your thought and beliefs?
What makes your religion superior and the right one?
How do you know that, just like the Catholics, (which you admittedly almost became a member) you are not being deceived also?
You Carlos are one pompous and arrogant individual ( for lack of a more fitting word) . First it is Allah, who is the devil in disguise, now it it the Catholic….’this ‘Political/Religious Institution, IS, the most, wicked, evil, tyrannical, entity, ever to be granted existence on God’s earth. Masquerading as the ‘One’ true Church, which has caused more harm and disgrace to the cause of ‘Christ’ and His true Church, like no other has.’
Please enlighten us, the poor, IGNORANT masses, as to who, what or which religion is the ‘TRUE’ one.
@ Dissident……
God was conspicuously absent from the medieval Roman Catholic church, the period in history to which you are referring.
You must really, just now, dropped out of the sky. I dont even know where to start in terms of a reply to this!!!
Hopi // January 15, 2009 at 6:52 PM
@Technician….OMG is right. That is truly laughable. Here you have this hypocritical jackass, where everything he knows as a ‘christian’ he knows from this Bible that was blessed and mandated by the RC church. He is using that SAME Bible to justify mass genocide and theft of the Palestinian peoples and now he’s blasting the RC church. Now doesn’t that tell you that he is AN ASS of the HIGHEST ORDER? And this other MORON here coming up from his puke every five minutes for air. Meddling in foreign affairs that he does not comprehend.
‘israel’ is a damn COWARD. I say to give the Palestinians the SAME arms that the zionists devils have and I bet you that this invasion would be over in a minute, simply because the real zionists terrorist are cowards.
I take my hat off to GREECE for not allowing that shipment of arms from the great whore to pass through their country en route to the zionists. And to Evo Morales in Bolivia for kicking their ass out just like Chavez in Venezuela. Long live MEN of honour.
Bush Tea // January 15, 2009 at 8:59 PM
I am truly intrigued by all of the history and geography that has been brought to bare on this issue.But is it relevant?
From my perspective, it is precisely BECAUSE the Jews purport to be God’s chosen people that makes this ‘war’ a travesty.
…are ‘God’s people’ not supposed to be the ones who show how we can love our enemies?
….what ever happened to turning the other cheek?
..why do ‘Gods people’ need American weapons and technology to defend themselves?
…What manner of people, having themselves experienced such treatment from Nazi Germany, would now dish out the same to starving Palestinians in Gaza?
…and finally,
How could anyone defend such BEHAVIOUR in the name of Christ?
Chris Halsall // January 15, 2009 at 9:35 PM
@BT… My Friend. As we resonate on similar (but different) wavelengths…
IIM. How does, exactly, *anyone* defend their behaviour (their position) now?
Or… A separate question… Ever?
Carlos // January 15, 2009 at 9:52 PM
@Technician, you are even more ‘Ignorant’ than I thought you to be. “But if any man be IGNORANT, let him be IGNORANT” (1 Cor.14:38) emphasis added.
@ NOT SAVED: You wouldn’t know; you probably will NEVER know.
@ HOPI: You obviously are so far up the inner tract of Satan and his emissary’s thoughts, that you must be ’spitting’ fire out of your mouth by now, as ALL you eat and digest are his coals of fire, laced with utter deceit, lies, falsity, and blatant untruth.
As God’s Word state:
“In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.” (Prov. 10: 13).
“Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction” (Prov. 10:14).
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise” (Prov. 12:15)
“A wip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool’s back. (v. 3)
“Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him” (v.4).
“Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit” (v.5).
(Prov. 26: 3-5).
These verses are complementary rather than contradictory. Although it is unwise to argue with a fool at his level and to recognize his foolish suppositions, there are occasions when it is best to refute him soundly, lest his foolish opinions seem to be confirmed.
So be it; or literally, so it be!
Bush Tea // January 15, 2009 at 10:09 PM
@Chris
Well it is actually quite easy to understand Israel’s behaviour now…
They are bullies who are intoxicated with the drunkenness of unlimited access to the most modern weapons available to mankind.
They are led by people who think short term (2-4 years) and who define security as beating, and keeping, all possible enemies into helplessness.
They WOULD actually attack Iran- just to deny them access to nuclear technology (which they have had for decades now).
They treat their neighbours like animals and then ask us to be upset when these neighbours express a desire to see them wiped from the map.
If these were NOT tagged as ‘God’s people’, Bush Tea would see it as business as usual….just like the USA in Iraq, Panama. With North and South Korea etc.
God would have expected ‘his people’ to demonstrate to the world how “God’s approach” works.
i.e. How to treat those who hate you with LOVE.
How to love your neighbour as you do yourself…. especially those that hate you.
How to TRUST God’s power and the reality of the SPIRITUAL LAWS to protect and guide you -RATHER THAN LEANING ON F16’s and M5 tanks.
So what we have is a situation where the ‘chosen examples’ have sunk to the absolute bottom of the heap.
….as a result, God will allow the very Palestinian people to come together to build a frighteningly powerful military block – with shocking results for the whole world.
….whosoever digs a well, will fall into it..and who live by the sword, shall die by the sword.
Israel has dug a nuclear well in the Middle East and they continue to live by the sword of their USA supplied weapons.
The next few years will be the most ‘interesting’ in all history.
Chris Halsall // January 15, 2009 at 10:21 PM
@BT… Please! You are deeper than this. You are better than this…
Is everything promised nothing but war?
I truly pray this is not the True Word.
Please advise.
Technician // January 15, 2009 at 10:22 PM
@ Carlos…….
I would rather remain ignorant than to be a part of ‘your’ religion.
Bush Tea // January 15, 2009 at 10:36 PM
@Chris
What!! you have a problem with messengers? You think the Bush Tea is doing all this? You think that I like it?
You are much more brilliant than BT – when you look at all the trends, the facts and the realities what do YOU see?
…utopia?
Do you understand that technology is such that even a moron like BT could probably build a nuke? (MME probably done build one already – just for fun…LOL) … What do you REALLY expect?
ROK // January 15, 2009 at 10:44 PM
Is it arrogance that would cause a person to call another “ignorant”? Carlos, you need to display the attitude and behaviour of a man of peace and love and not one who would insult or put down others to try to prove a point.
When you come on here you need to be an emissary, if “non-conformers” to your ideas about the Christian religion are to place any credence in what you are saying.
This is another example of lack of respect. One could even consider you a verbal terrorist; a persecutor; and that is just what Christians always claim; persecution.
The Israelis are not the same as the Hebrews, Israelites or Jews. These were more of a sect based on the belief in certain scriptures than a race of people and you should know that.
You remind me of those so-called christians who would come and set up a boom box in front of your house in the middle of the week and blast for two hours in the name of God, without any care for the plight of the children who should be asleep, preparing homework or studying.
It is an invasion and so long as I don’t want it, it is also a pollution and violation of my right to enjoy the environment in my house. And if you talk to some of them, they will turn up the volume and start to sing harder and then get on the microphone and scream “satan come to mash up them meeting” to the top of their voices.
Christians? My word!
ROK // January 15, 2009 at 10:49 PM
One last thing I forgot. Remember, you shall know them by their fruit. Those who breed that kind of fruit are certainly not Christians. You don’t become a Christian by merely thinking that you are a Christian. It is a consciousness to do the right thing; like the Samaritan.
You know a Christian by their actions, people. If they don’t act like Christians and their fruits are not good, then they can’t be Christians; more like the proverbial wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Remember, not all that say Lord! Lord!
Chris Halsall // January 15, 2009 at 11:16 PM
@BT: “What!! you have a problem with messengers?
Yes. I have a problem with messengers without definitive messages…
@BT: Do you understand that technology is such that even a moron like BT could probably build a nuke?
You mean you haven’t, yet? Gosh; you’re slow. I already have in my back pocket an H-Bomb, an A-Bomb, and three dirty bombs. (Had to retain 100 “students” to process 100,000 old watches to get the required material for the last three…) (The NSA will be thinking about that for days…)
@BT: “…when you look at all the trends, the facts and the realities what do YOU see?
Lies. And once I look past the lies, I actually see possibility.
Call me an optimist…
Not Saved // January 15, 2009 at 11:36 PM
Here is a quote for you Carlos,
Whenever we read … the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize humankind. And, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel. — Thomas Paine
This certainly explains your behaviour
Adrian Hinds // January 16, 2009 at 4:19 PM
Boy Love it how cowards in the face of modern day “radical islam” are such warriors against the dying modern day Christian religion. haha ha ha ha ha had they not been an attack on an Anglican church in addition to the attack at the mosque, one can only imagine what the bajan Nostradameus’s would have been predicting. lol!
Can we get back to looking at this conflict in the context of th
Adrian Hinds // January 16, 2009 at 4:33 PM
Can we get back to looking at this conflict and it’s history?
another view // January 16, 2009 at 4:52 PM
No one here really seems to be interested in the history or the origins of the conflict.
Most folk here are anti-Semetic and overwhelmed by emotional sentiment, forgetting that one battle or quirmish does not make a war.
We are well on the way to Armageddon.
Carlos // January 16, 2009 at 5:19 PM
AH and Another View, any number of supossedly grown up (adults) here, can’t reason, with any kind of objective, logic, in the FACE of ‘hard’ historic facts and truth; you’d be better off trying to expain and educate ‘children’then these folkes, they can’t separate the ‘trees’ from the jungle, its a waste of time.
It most certainly is true, that:
“Ignorance has something to be said for it; IT gives rise to about 9/10th of the world’s conversational output”
Technician // January 16, 2009 at 5:34 PM
Then go start your own history/christian blog and stop trying to ram your views and beliefs down others throats Carlos.
You belittle and insult anyone who doesnt share your point of view, You believe that you are right about everything, with this mentality, who can reason with such a pompous person?
At least anyone can read and make their assumption of you (which explains the many who are disgusted by your attitude )
You really need to take a look at GP……you would do well to take a leaf or two from his book.
I WILL ask you again…..what, who or where by YOUR definition, is the true religion and it’s god??
You have already dismissed the Muslims and the Catholics .
ROK // January 16, 2009 at 5:43 PM
I will admit I am ignorant because I don’t know everything, but for those who are ignorant and know not that they are ignorant probably are the most ignorant; as you are properly demonstrating.
No amount of history can justify what the Israelis are doing. Can’t even explain it. Israel is still scattered.
me // January 16, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Ignoreth Carlos …less he smiteth you with his rod! LOL ! He cant help it!
Technician // January 16, 2009 at 6:32 PM
@ me…
lol….rlmao….
Adrian Hinds // January 16, 2009 at 6:39 PM
ha ha ha ha Oh Lord Carlos, “me” not I, real piss wid you for believing in a book that called “bulling” a sin.
ROK on the contrary History can indeed explain it and justify it. You see the world has never been the place that “me” and TellMeWhy would like us to believe it is or can be. Man has been covetous of, plotting against, killing one another, and lying about, since Cain and Abel, and that is the truth.
Not Saved // January 16, 2009 at 7:05 PM
history can explain genocide but it cannot justify it
Carlos // January 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM
Technician:
To answer your question: “I would ask you again…what, who or where by your defintion, is the true religion and it’s God?”
If you have the time, go back to BU ‘Palestinians continue To Pay A Penalty For The World’s Misdeeds” 5/1/09. You also made a number of post there as well, dialoguing with GP.
You will find my brief, but concise answer to Chris H, who said regarding my faith, (Christian Worldview) “Unquestioning faith. The true sign of the weak” which essentially, will answer your question to me.
Also, I would like very much for you to revist my assertion to you regarding why I said you are ‘ignorant’ which WAS not meant in a general sense at all, this is precisely why I said I used the word ‘ignorant’ ADVISEDLY, meaning in this ‘context’ ‘lacking knowledge and understanding’ of this discussion, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
We are ALL ignorant concerning many matters and issues in life, especially regarding certain disciplines, i.e., I’m not knowledgeable about ‘Medicine’ or ‘Law’ or Engineering, etc, etc., so I am ‘Ignorant’ on these subjects, and therefore would seek to ‘ask’ questions on there respective interpretations and so on.
We must not forget, that in the basic principles of ‘Logic’ the ‘Law’ of ‘Non-Contradiction’ states that two ‘competing ‘Truth’ claims CANNOT be both right at the same time and aspect, we use logic every day in our life, even though we might not realize it.
Take a look at that previous thread.
Carlos // January 16, 2009 at 9:56 PM
Technician; sorry, my thread as mentioned with Chris H, was posted on January 7, @10:38 pm.
Chris Halsall // January 16, 2009 at 10:15 PM
@Carlos 2009.01.16@1756: “Technician; sorry, my thread as mentioned with Chris H, was posted on January 7, @10:38 pm.
Carlos. Sir. If you’re going to call my name, please be prepared to speak to what I ask…
Could you *please* provide a *fully qualified* URL to what you refer to immediately above.
To be clear, a “full qualified URL” means a very specific thing.
Please advise.
Thanks, and kindest regard to all….
Technician // January 16, 2009 at 10:39 PM
@ Carlos……..you can spin it any which way you choose.
Here you go again….you have your views and I have mine so let it end as it is ok….we are ignorant to each others views and understanding of the situation.
If, as you say, this is prophecy being fulfilled, then there is nothing anyone can do to change the script.
Carlos // January 16, 2009 at 11:48 PM
@Technician….if you can’t understand the basic principles of Logic, which are not biased toward any particular ‘Worldview’ or, for that matter, any other debate, that can only be critically, objectively, and properly analyzed, because, ‘Logic’ which is universal, and points us toward ‘truth’ is prescriptive.
What are your prescriptive, (Logical) principles, in arriving at your world view?
If I am ‘ignorant’ to your views, you must present a sound, historical, objective, premise for such a conclusion, which, is conspicuously absent from your argument and views, no coherence at all!
Carlos // January 17, 2009 at 12:08 AM
@ Chris, I did make ’specific’ reference to the blog on BU, ‘Palestinians To Pay A Penalty For The World’s Misdeeds, on 5/1/09, when you made reference to my Christian faith, by saying:
“Unquestioning Faith. The true sign of the weak.”
My response to that, was posted on 7/1/09, @ 10:38pm.
I’m not too familiar with all of this ‘computer’ jargon, URL, etc., trust that the info given here will satisfy your query.
Chris Halsall // January 17, 2009 at 12:10 AM
@Carlos…
YOU CALLED MY NAME.
PLEASE NOW SPEAK TO WHAT I ASKED.
Chris Halsall // January 17, 2009 at 12:16 AM
@Carlos: “I’m not too familiar with all of this ‘computer’ jargon, URL, etc., trust that the info given here will satisfy your query.
SO YOU ARE AN IGNORANT FOOL. NO SURPRISE THERE.
David // January 17, 2009 at 12:42 AM
We can intellectualize on this matter but …
We must warn that pictures seen on the link are not for the feint of heart.
Chris Halsall // January 17, 2009 at 1:14 AM
@David. Reset button.
We really have no idea, do we?
David // January 17, 2009 at 1:31 AM
@Chris
Truly!
Not Saved // January 17, 2009 at 2:58 AM
where are the dragons, carlos?
Carlos // January 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM
@ Chris, yes, I am ‘ignorant’ regarding many things, ‘not knowledgeable’ but, NOT so regarding the historicity of the Israli/Palestinian confict, of which you and most others are, you ARE THE FOOLISH ONE, with your ‘feet firmily planted in mid-air’ remain so, that’s your choice!
Carlos // January 17, 2009 at 1:58 PM
To those who are willing to learn a bit more about the ‘historic’ truth and reality of the State of Israel, and the ‘utter’ vengence and hatred for the Jews as demonstrated by the ‘Arab’ states against her, from the moment she gained her ‘Statehood’ in 1948, here are some of the facts at that time, and following:
More Specific Background:
The Jews, Kurds, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Berbers, Dinkas and more are peoples rooted in the Middle East, and neighbouring parts of the world, who have just as much a rightful claims to their homelands as do the Arabs who surged out on conquest through Islamist ideology starting in the 7th century. Indeed, in Palestine/Judea and Samaria, Arabs are descendents of the INVADERS.
The 1919 post WW I Versailles settlements, for all the sins and errors made there that helped lay the foundations for WW II, sought to remake Europe and linked lands in the aftermath of the collapse of the Austrian, Russian and Ottoman Empires, on the principle that each people so far as possible, should have its own recognized homeland, and where reasonable, their own state.
This is precisly, the premise of the wave of ‘nationalism’ that has led to the League of Nations, the United Nations, and the wave of post-colonial independent states all across the world. A wave that we benefit from here in the Caribbean, under no other circumstances would independent micro-states like ours across the region be viable.
As a part of that process, Chaim Weizman (representing the Jewish Agency) and Feisal Hussein (representing the Sherif of Mecca and the leadership of the then envisioned emerging Arab nation; later, King of Iraq, and his brother Abdullah, became King of Trans-Jordan Palestine (now Jordan) entered into a 1919 Versailles process side agreement in London, for the joint, mutually supportive development of the Arab and Jewish nations in the Middle East.
Sadly, largely through Islamist fanaticism and murder [not discounting the perfidy of British and French Displomatists), this was not to be so. Riots in the 1920’s and an Arab revolt in the 1930’s led to the situation where post WW II, the British wished to surrender the LON mamndate to the successor of the League of Nations, the UN.
The UN voted partition, the Arab League threatened war or genocide. The Jews accepted partition and declared Israel’s Independence, leading to an ‘Invasion’ by FIVE Arab armies WITHIN 24 hours, May 15/15, 1948. Against all odds, Israel survived, and in addition to refugees from Europe etc, absorbed a further 600,000+ refugee Jews EXPELLED or FORCED out from the Arab-dominated ME states. These constitute an irreconcilable refugee population, and are the capstone legitimising rational for Israel as a land of refuge, and are the PRESENT MAJORITY of Jews in Israel.
Now, a similar number of Arab refugees, mostly (but not wholly) owing to the invitation to Arabs to MOVE OUT, so the genocide could proceed unhindered, (to annihilate the Jews, and their new statehood) multiplied by Arab atrocity stories against Jews, were forced to remain in camps by THEIR BROTHER Arabs [in the case of Egypt and Gaza, at machine-gun point}, with the declared intent to exploit their suffering to foment ETERNAL war until ISRAEL WASA DESTROYED.
Arab-Israeli War of 1948.
Remember, the new State of Israel, was mandated by the Balfour Declaration of 1917, unanimously approved and codified by the League of Nations, three years after the Balfour Declaration, YET, the utter hatred for the Jews, manifested itself, literally within hours of the ‘birth’ by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebnon and Saudi Arabia; where roughly half a million Jews in Israel, were now surrounded by over 40 milion Arabs, who sole intention were to DESTROY, INNIHILATE the Jews, and their rightful homeland.
Between February 24 to July 20, in 1949, several unsuccessful Arab invasions were defeated.
6 Day War Of 1967.
Secret Weapon:
Mrs. Golda Meir, former Prime Minister of Israel, said: “We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs – we have NO place to go.”
The Threats:
Several weeks before the war of 1967, Egypt issued a postage showing Nasser (the President) with a map of Israel in flames at his right hand.
On May 18, 1967, Nasser demanded the withdrawal of UN forces from the Sanai. The UN readily complied. And Arab nations began massing troops on the borders of Israel. Egypt lined up 80,000 men; Syria 40,000; Jordan 40,000; saudi Arabia 20,000; Iraq sent 5000 troops to help Syria.
On may 22nd, Nasser announced that the Gulf of Aqaba would be closed to Israeli shipping. Since Egypt had denied Israel’s use of the Suez Canal, the Port of Elath was Israel’s only port to the Red Sea, and the closing of Aqaba threatened its survival.
Before fighting started, the radio in Cairo announced: “Our people have been waiting 20 years for this battle. Now they will teach Israel the lesson of DEATH!”
Nasser went on the radio to say that any war with Israel “WILL BE TOTAL” and the objective will be to DESTROY Israel.” A Syrian army commander predicted Israel’s destruction in 4 days.
Israel was hedged in on 3 sides by Arab forces, and OUTNUMBERED 20 to 1.
According to Newsweek, the most important new factor in the start of the 1967 war was “the installation of an estimated 60 new missile sites. All told, the Egyptians now have some 180 Soviet installed SAM-2 ground-to-air missiles and 240 of the more advanced SAM-3s. Egypt’s air defense has been further bolstered by a Soviet radar system along the Mediterranean coast and by the addition of 50 new MIG-21s, giving Cairo an air force of 450 Soviet jets.”
“beneath this air umbrella, the Russians have armed the 100,000 Egyptian troops along the canal with a vast array of modern weapons. this includes 750 Soviet-built tanks, 350 Czechoslovakian amphibious craft and perhaps as many as 1,000 artillery pieces ( Three dozen of these are the mighty Russian 203 millimeter howitzers, which can lob a 200- pound warhead on to Israel’s Bar Lev line from 18 miles inside Egyptian lines). And stiffening the Egyptian ranks, there are some 12,000 Russians – half of them operational troops manning SAM-3 sites and the MIG-21s…”
THE WAR:
When Israeli radar picked up flights of enemy bombers, they launched a pre-emptive strike simultaneously against Egypt, Jordan and Syria, attacking 25 Arab air bases. When the air war cleared, 400 Arab warplanes were gone.
The hardest fighting, however, took place in Jordan against Jordan’s cracked Arab Legion. On the second day of the war, the Israeli’s took the Old City of Jerusalem. Then the Jordanians were driven east of the river Jordan, and the Israelis also advanced to the Dead Sea.
The Arabs NOW called for a ceasefire. Jerusalem, for the first time in nearly 2,600 years, came under Jewish control. In one week’s time, Israel’s land increased from 8,000 to 34,000 square miles, or four times its original territory.
NOTE CAREFULLY:
The Balfour Declaration of 1917, mandated a land area of approximately 38,000 square miles, for Israel, BUT, she was denied this, when Britian unilaterally GAVE 75% of this mandated land, to create the state of Transjordan, now Jordan, the real Palestinian State.
Itn’t it interesting and ironic, that now in 1967, when the combined Arab forces, backed by the military might of Russian, sought to Annihilate Israel from her rightful homeland, end up loosing around 26,000 square miles which they were never entitled to in the first place.
Shortest War In History:
Between June 5 to 10, 1967, Israel won the ’shortesr war in history.’ All three confrontational states, of Egypt, Syria and Jordan were defeated.
Each and every time Israel has to go to war, it is ALWAYS first started by the Arabs, who have ONE purpose, to DESTROY and ANNIHILATE her, BUT, they can’t do this; because Almight God, promised over and over again, that when the Jews were finally re-gathered from their world-wide dispersion, after 2,000 years, they WOULD NEVER again be exiled, yes, the most horrific confrontation against Israel is yet to come, BUT, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, will make His soon, Second Advent, at the Battle of Armageddon, and will DESTROY the wicked armies of the Anti-Christ one world government, just by uttering ‘His’ Word of wrath against them.
To all you scoffers and mockers of God’s Word, the Bible, the season is at hand, the End-times are here, the world wide economic crisis, is just beginning, we ain’t see nothing yet; and Israel is the ‘apex’ of all fulfillment of bible prophecy, and is literally unfolding before our very eyes.
Put your ‘PRIDE’ aside, and realize what is happening before us all, as the End it near at hand.
ru4real // January 17, 2009 at 4:41 PM
Carlos there is nothing wrong with your history of Israel.
Well put and correct.
Not sure the end is at hand just yet I hope not!
To those who insult Carlos.By indulging in personal and ignorant attacks you are only proving the weakness of your own argument.
another view // January 17, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Off course Carlos has correctly presented an acurate history of Israel and related the current events to the imminent return of Christ.
Let him that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Dissident // January 17, 2009 at 5:19 PM
Add my “name” to those who agree with the accuracy of the historical chronology as set out by Carlos.
You may not agree with his theology and eschatology but his historical facts are correct.
Resorting to “ad hominem” attacks is prima facie evidence of the weakness of your reasoning. Sounds like ill-disguised anti-Semitism to me.
Technician // January 17, 2009 at 5:20 PM
Carlos is no different to the Arabs.
He has his beliefs and they have theirs.Everything written above can be disputed by the other side. What make Carlos’ point of view the right one?
Who is to say the Catholics are not right…or the Arabs?
This is the problem with religious fanatics from both sides…..both think they are right and anyone who disagrees is painted in a bad way…..such is life!!
We will just have to wait for the end.
In the meantime continue to justify the suffering, bondage and murder of the Palestinian people at the hands of the Israelis with history lessons and biblical rhetoric.
another view // January 17, 2009 at 5:40 PM
Technician
The history of the Roman Catholic church is also well known starting with its origins when Constantine merged the state with the church in AD 313.
Before this we had a NT church that had survived the most attacks by the devil using the Roman Emperors.
Techie I would bet my lost dollar that you have sudied niether the Bible or Church History.
I dont think that it is any ones desire to as you say justify the suffering, bondage and murder of the Palestinian people at the hands of the Israelis with history lessons and biblical rhetoric.
But Carlos and others have presented an accurate history of Israel and acurrately presented the Biblical view.
No one likes to see suffering but we are not in control; we only espouse our personal beliefs based on years of study.
Chris Halsall // January 17, 2009 at 6:14 PM
@another view…
So, if I may please ask you and all.
What are some *achievable* solutions?
I would argue that some serious and honest discussion needs to be (and, I hope and pray, is being) undertaken.
What are the *true* substantive issues preventing solutions?
How many of them are based on emotion?
Chris Halsall // January 17, 2009 at 6:46 PM
And, if I may, a follow up question.
How many of them are based on (or, at least, influenced by) money?
Adrian Hinds // January 17, 2009 at 11:11 PM
Technician if are so certain that Carlos historical view (not his beliefs) can be challenge, why don’t you start the ball?
….remember you said ‘everything he said above can be disputed by the otherside” research their arguments and bring them on.
Carlos // January 17, 2009 at 11:31 PM
@ Technician, and others of his mind-set, who are unable for whatever reasons, to think ‘critically’ in light of what little evidence has been presented vis-a-vis Israel and the Arab nations, as there is TONS more evidence and facts, in support of Israel’s position in defending her rights as a duly constituted Nation, in the face of the Arabs, resolute, hell-bent, intent, to DESTROY and ANNIHILATE her, period!!
As Simon Greenleaf, a father of the theory of ‘evidence’ in his famous 1874 work, “Testimony of the Evangelists…rule of municiple law, said:
“A proposition of fact is proved when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence.”
@ Chris Halsall, and your questions:
‘What are some ‘achievable’ solutions?’
‘What are the ‘true’ substantive issue preventing solutions?’
Israel has made numerous efforts at ‘making’ peace over the years, and each and every time, it ‘backfired’ in her face. Why?
Because the PLO and other militant Islamists, DON’T want peace, they just desire to persecute and torment the Jews, until they have enough ‘nuke’ power to annihilate Israel off the face of the earth, the ISSUE has NEVER being over land, it has always being an ‘Everlasting Hatred’ for the Jewish people, who must NOT exist, and especially so, in the Arab, Islamic, Middle East.
In the 6-day-war in 1967, with Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, despite Israeli pleas to keep out, and then settle for a “barrage of honour” after it began to shell Israeli territory, Jordan was counter-attacked, and the West Bank was captured. (Jordan had captured this area in the 1948 war, and had illegally ‘annexed’ it. Thus, West Bank Palestinian Arabs held Jordanian Citizenship, and indeed in 1969-70 when internal unrest heightened, King Hussein offered Arafat the premiership; which HE refused. A civil war ensued and the PLO WAS expelled from Jordan; always bearing in mind, that Jordan, IS the de jure Palestinian state, having being created out of out of Israel’s mandated, Balfour Declaration, when Britian CARVED out 75% of Israel’s duly ratified land, by the League of Nations, and gave it to Abdullah for Transjordan, now Jordan.
Anyway, back to Arafat and King Hussein; that is what led to the establishment of the PLO in Lebanon, a material factor triggering in the Lebanese civil war of the 1070’s – 80’s; and the trigger to the sad situation for that former Paris of the Middle East, Beirut.
Syria, finally, was counter attacked, and the Golan heights was captured. The same heights that for 20 years had been used to shell Israeli farmers in Galilee.
Subsequently, after the REFUSAL to engage in a land for real peace deal post 1967, the 1973 war led to the settlement with Egypt and the exchange of ALL of the Sanai for real peace. ( A subsequent settlement with Jordan also issued in exchange of a much smaller slice of land for real peace).
So, we see Israel always attempting to broker peace, by giving up pieces of her mandated land, which never satisfied the Islamic radical Jihadists; one excuse or another, civilian-targetting terrorism has continued against Israel, NOW backed up by Iranian geopolitical and Islamist global supremacist ambitions, that have led to the arming of Hezbollah [effectively the Iranian Revolutionary Guards' Foreign Legion] and Hamas [a wing of the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood] with increasingly long ranged rockets.
In the case of Hamas, over the past decade or so, 10,000 rockets and mortar bombs have been lobbed into Israel, in what is in effect long term harassing fire, mostly targetting civilian settlements. And, the rockets used are gradually being escalated in range, now evidently approaching the 50 miles to Dimona.
Then, Dec 19, after a six-month truce, Hamas began bombardments AGAIN (actually, it never stopped, just diminished in ferocity).
Israe’s Response:
Having seen this gathering threat, Israel has acquired 1,000 GBU 39 -60 mile range, GPS-guided mini bunker busters and other precision munitions. These, it began to use in a counter attack that targetted Hamas’s munitions, launch sites and command structures [except for the main HQ, which is in bunkers direct UNDER a major hospital].
The major challenge has been that Hamas NOT only bombards civilians, BUT HIDES behind innocent Arab civilians, using them as human shields. So Israel has responded by using precision attacks, guided based on intelligence, much of that from unmanned aerial vehicles that have slowly compilled adatabase of attack-points.
In short, it is clear that Israel is going to considerable expense and effort precisely to AVIOD civilian casualties as much as is possible in war.
Indeed, the reports that they are phoning individual households near strike zones and advising occupants to seek shelter, is along the same lines. Sadly, the further reports, and vidoe of children being dragged off as such shields, that reveal Hamas militiamen, are using this to put civilians into the zones as human shields is utterly disgusting.
And that contrast fits in well with the decades long propaganda and war crimes, used to INCITE further regional and global hostility against them.
Remember, Hamas by charter, IS dedicated to the DESTRUCTION of Israel, one way or the other; and in a context where a ‘relevant hadith’ (authoritative tradition) from the prophet Mahommed, says:
“…it was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him] said; ‘I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him] say: ‘The Dajjaal (Devil) will come down to this pond at Marriqanaat ( a valley near Madeenah [Medina] and most of those who go out to follow him will be womenm such that a man will go back to his wife, mother, daughter, sister or (paternal) aunt and WILL TIE THEM UP lest they go out to join him. Then Allah will grant the Muslims victory over him, and they will KILL him and his party, unti…”
Notice just who are the evident “Party of the devil” in this tradition.
So, biblically and historically, there CAN BE NO Peace, but, in the not too distant future, we will see the appearance of a ‘Man’ the AntiChrist, who will sign a ’seven-year’ peace treaty with Israel, a massive deception, not only to Israel, but to the world at large, all prophesied in God’s Word, the Bible; and the existing tension, anxiety, and worry of most people, will welcome such a ‘one’ who will deceive most people, Israel included.
Sorry, Chris, there IS no human solution to this ancient conflict, for Only when the true Prince of Peace makes His glorious appearance, The Lord Jesus Christ, and establishes His Reign in Jerusalem, will mankind know what true peace really is.
Not Saved // January 18, 2009 at 1:11 AM
Carlos,
you know the non existent and the invisible look remarkably similar
Not Saved // January 18, 2009 at 1:16 AM
what is jesus waiting for? he likes to watch human suffering?
Not Saved // January 18, 2009 at 1:40 AM
is firing on a hospital ” going to considerable expense and effort precisely to AVIOD civilian casualties as much as is possible in war.” ????
Adrian Hinds // January 18, 2009 at 2:41 AM
Carlos, I think we will need a history of the word Palestine as it is used today. It’s epYour reference to Palestine, Jordan and Trans-Jordan, can be cleared up by this. See if you can reference in that response, the Hasemites, and the people of Philistia, and also the area by todays geographical reference points that would have been Canaan.
When we are done with this, we should look at the term “Occupiers” that is used by some to define Israelis.
Yardbroom // January 18, 2009 at 8:01 AM
There is a bashing of emotion in this debate because it is tied to concern and a particular position.
Do not bash emotion for it is a necessary component of what makes us “human,” without it I dare say there would be no hate but then there would also be no “love.” It is how we control those emotions, which are shackled to a solution of our problems, and not the emotion itself.
When I submitted on this issue I purposely said I would not venture into the “Biblical” because I knew what would ensue…and so it has proved. My good friend Georgie Porgie would have a different view I am sure, there is no loss of respect for him by me as a result.
When young children’s body parts drip from a tangled web of concrete and steel and you see young mothers’ eyes red rimmed with tears, that makes most people emotional, if that is to be of no account…please put me on the side of those who are emotional.
Carlos // January 18, 2009 at 9:55 AM
Adrian H, yes, I will give much needed correction on the term ‘Occupier’ referring always to Israel, a ‘Myth’ created and propagandized repeatedly over the last 60 years, by the PLO and others, to make the Jews appear as the ‘agressors’ when in fact, the Jews are the real ‘refugees’ NOT the Palestianins, all there in the historic documents.
The Arabs, started this deceptive use of ‘Turnspeak’ a propaganda ‘LIE’ a cynical inverting of ‘facts’ to make the ‘victim’ Israel, look like the agressor.
This has been used relentlessly by Arafat and his Islamist cohorts, and sadly, not seen or understood by many throughout the world.
I will be very busy with other matters from today, until Tuesday, will return to this at that time.
patinho // January 18, 2009 at 12:20 PM
I’ve always been firmly on the Palestinian side for as long as i can recall. I’m not anti-Semitic but the thing is the US and the west have always been pro-Israel. Israel is a manufactured state created for foreigners with the slightest drop of Jewish ancestry immigrating in droves to their “promised land”. History shows that in recent centuries there hadn’t been major clashing of Jew and Arab (or Muslim) under the ottoman empire which was Islamic. The empire tolerated religious freedom and did not impose Islam on the lands absorbed into it, unlike the christian European colonizers. In the late 19th century, European Jews started pushing the Zionist movement in response to antisemitism in Europe and since then, increasing waves of immigration poured into Palestine. Jews and Arabs lived peacefully in the empire. When the empire fell the British, through the Balfour Declaration, made it their intention to create a Jewish state in Palestine and since then all hell broke loose as the British permitted thousands upon thousands of of the global Jewish stock to immigrate. Hitler’s war on Jews intensified western sympathy for the Jewry and the creation of the Jewish homeland. (*note that Palestine was not the only proposed homeland for the Jews by the British and the league of nations). When the British tried to limit immigration, the Jews used terrorism to achieve their political objective much like how they claim the Palestinians are doing now.
The West (main France initially then the USA) have continued to disproportionately facilitate Israel’s economic and military rise and nuclear program in response to threats from their perceived enemies at the time Egypt and the Soviets.
Many people are saying that the Palestinians don’t want peace but it is hard to have a fair solution if from the inception of the conflict all the major world powers are supporting the other side. Israel is an occupying force in Gaza and other parts of Palestine, which the british set aside for the palestinians over 60 yrs ago. The average israeli is of european ancestry whilst palestinians are arab therefore oppositin to a imposed European nation in the Mideast (as Europeans have done throughout the new world) is expected. About 1/10 of Palestinians were Jews at the collapse of the ottoman empire but by the end of ww2 it was 3/10 and with their wealth and connections, legally and legally significantly increased their landownership. These are the roots of the problem. How much they have to do with the current conflict is debatable.
Roughly 80% of the world’s Jews are split evenly between Israel and the US. The financial clout, political control and Zionist ideologies of American Jews and general sympathy for the Jewry ensures that Israel’s cause will continue for decades to come. Equally so, the staunch resistance of the Palestinians to the state of Israel and their hope for their own state on their terms, will also ensure that this conflict continues into the near future. This is until somehow the US is able to install a puppet democracy in Palestine.
I do not support the methods the Palestinians use nor the disproportionate use of the israelis which shows that both sides have run out of suitable options to resolving the conflict. The solution maybe the US achieving its goal of systematic eliminating all of its opponents in the Mideast (Iran is next in line, Iraq is all but over) since its intention is to maintain the state of israel. Another possible solution will be the pacification of the hard line leaders of the Palestinian cause however, that doesn’t seem to be anywhere on the horizon.
This conflict classically shows that mass immigration and the social impact it causes can have severe consequences. The sudden and unprecedented altering of the status quo in Palestine fueled the resentment for the state of Israel. The immediate creation of two separate states as they stand now, is not the answer since i believe, like Israel, that this would result in a strong enemy Palestinian state on its borders ready to wipe it off the face of the earth.The solution is a strong non aggressive Palestinian state built over time with the help of the western powers instead of a weak crippled group of administered regions filled with animosity.
Carlos // January 18, 2009 at 3:48 PM
@ Patinho, like the majority, you are likewise ‘hoodwinked’ deceived, by much misinformation disseminated by the Palestinian and other apologists, regarding the ‘historic’ facts about the Jews, and their origins of ancestry prior to returning to their ancient homeland in 1948.
As I said in my last thread, I don’t have the time right now to deal with this; but will make a few comments re, a few of your distortions:
“Jews and Arabs lived peacefully in the Empire” (Ottoman)
This is a terrible untruth, no doubt propogandized by Haj Amin Al-Husseini, 1937 -Grand Mufti Jerusalem, and others of his ilk.
Joan Peters put it so well in her monumental work, ‘From Time Immemorial’ this way:
“For every refugee , adult or child, in Syria, Lebanon or elsewhere in the Arab world who compels our sympathy, there IS A JEWISH refugee who FLED from the Arab country of his birth. For every Arab who moved to neighboring lands, a Jew was FORCED to FLEE from a community where he and his ancestors may have lived for 2000 years.”
As Hal Lindsey, in his well documented and presented work, ‘The Everlasting Hatred The Roots of Jihad’ says:
“The world seldom, if ever, hears about the more than 800,000 Jewish refugees who fled Aran terror and hatred and settled in Israel. Perhaps it is because every single one of those refugees was accepted, resettled and provided for by the struggling Jewish state without question or hesitation. There never has been a Jewish refugee camp in Israel or anywhere else.” (p.149) emphasis added.
Another of your gross misrepresentations, read:
Israel is an occupying force in Gaza and other parts of Palestine…The average Israeli is of European ancestry…”
Utter nonsense, the historic facts, as clearly documented, not the ‘Turnspeak’ of the Islamists Jihadists, reveal an entirely different position.
I regret I am unable to continue at this time, but look forward with anticipation to setting the record straight on Tuesday.
Technician // January 18, 2009 at 4:32 PM
Your arrogance has no bounds Carlos!!!
Who is to say that ‘Patinho’ did not do his/her research and come to this conclusion based on what he/she read and understand?
Who died and made you the only authority on this topic? (guess you would say Christ)
Anything that goes against Israel is a myth, terrible untruths, propaganda or misrepresentations.
There are sound arguments both for and against creation and evolution. So to can be said for the Bible and the existence of God as you describe.
This is why, in answering AH’s question, it would make no sense to even try to reason with you.
One thing I can safely say……if this is how Christians think and behave….I will remain as I am.
JC // January 18, 2009 at 5:02 PM
Carlos fah real, I was reading a lot of your comments and I am begging you to do something for me:
I would like you to think like a human being and not like a Christian;
I thought the two went hand in hand! I thought that before you could ever see the face of GOD you have to had loved your neighbour as you love yourselve but most of all RESPECT them! You have failed miserably in all two aspects;
Carlos STOP IT!
JC // January 18, 2009 at 5:10 PM
I see my man GP (soon to be husband) has proved his points without the insults! I am not saying that your argument is not strong but come on man these things which are happening on both sides ARE WRONG! FULL STOP!
Not Saved // January 18, 2009 at 6:58 PM
Carlos,
dont wait till tuesday, the end is near
Not Saved // January 18, 2009 at 6:59 PM
can you look in your magic book and tell us when you jesus is coming?
patinho // January 18, 2009 at 7:24 PM
Firstly Hal Lindsey is a Zionist and therefore by default is biased towards Israel cause. Your replies on my statement concerning Jews in the Ottoman Empire are irrelevant since they are concerned with the state of Israel in 1948 and beyond. The empire was dissolved around the end of ww1 and Britain and France took control of the Middle East.
Secondly to educate you, Gaza came into Israeli control (along with the West Bank, Golan Heights and other areas) as a result of the Six Day War in 1967. Regarding modern day Israeli ancestry, clearly documented immigration statistics show the majority are or are descendents of European Jews who fled Europe because of rising anti-Semitism and the Nazi persecution. Around the beginning of ww2, European Jews (and their descendents) accounted for accounted for roughly 90% of all Jews. Before the major efforts for the creation of Israel they immigrated to USA, Canada, South America, France and other parts of the world but eventually immigrated to the Middle East since the creation of the Jewish state.
In case you don’t know hear a few notable European Jews: Albert Einstein, Karl Marx, Steven Spielberg, Larry King, Dick Cheney, Jerry Seinfeld, Jerry Springer, Michael Bloomberg, Sigmund Freud, Henry Kissinger. Are there any comparable notable Palestinians or Muslims you can name in American history? Jews are too influential a force in the USA, the USA will always be pro-Israel and the Palestinian cause will go unresolved.
another view // January 18, 2009 at 7:29 PM
Jews are too influential a force in the USA, the USA will always be pro-Israel and the Palestinian cause will go unresolved.
Really really?
The USA might always be pro Israel, but soon the USA which is now in serious decline will have no power to protect Israel.
There are rough days ahead for Israel…….followed by glorious days after the second coming.
patinho // January 18, 2009 at 7:38 PM
oh, also add to that list of jew in the us government William Cohen, James Schlesinger and Paul Wolfowitz who all served as Secretary of Defense.
Technician // January 18, 2009 at 7:39 PM
@ patinho…
Dont get yourself worked up on this Carlos, he is just another bible-toting Israeli sympathizer.
Even if the truth is there, he will find a way to dispute it by using the Bible, biased reporting and historical ‘facts’, then insult your intelligence by saying you are being duped.
I am glad that there is still others like you to show another side to this. I hope you have the patience …cause I sure dont.
Why doesnt he list the number of UN resolutions agreed at the UN General Assembly, which Israel completely ignores with impunity, while other countries are penalized for much less.
Any way………we have a ceasefire …both there and on this blog….so until Tuesday.
Not Saved // January 18, 2009 at 7:43 PM
The US spends more on its armed forces than every other country in the world combined
So its got some “serious declining” to do before it cant protect anyone.
ROK // January 18, 2009 at 7:59 PM
This has nothing to do with the accuracy of historical accounts, this has to do with supporting genocide.
The devil quotes the Bible.
Technician // January 18, 2009 at 8:05 PM
Anonymous // January 18, 2009 at 9:34 PM
ROK,
that point is lost on the christian zionists here
no matter the validity of their historical claims, genocide is not acceptable
another point lost on them is that being critical of Israel is not anti-semitism (anymore than being critical of the US in Iraq makes you anti-american)
Not Saved // January 18, 2009 at 9:35 PM
ROK,
that point is lost on the christian zionists here
no matter the validity of their historical claims, genocide is not acceptable
another point lost on them is that being critical of Israel is not anti-semitism (anymore than being critical of the US in Iraq makes you anti-american)
Dictionary // January 19, 2009 at 8:22 AM
FYI:
___________
gen·o·cide n. The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
____________
While from 1948 on, one may find documented declarations of genocidal intent on the part of the Arab League, its leaders (especially in 1947 – 1967) and more particularly Hamas in recent times, there is no credible evidence that the Zionists as a whole or Israel as the state established through the success of that nationalist movement, has intended or attempted to carry out genocide; INCLUDING especially the current surgical strikes in Gaza.
There is abundant evidence that, ever since the London Agreement and Zionist submittal to the Versailles Conference in 1919, Zionists have been willing to work with other peoples native to or long settled in their historic homeland in the ME, to jointly develop that region.
The 2000 draft settlement more or less along adjusted lines tot he 1949 ceasefire lines, accepted by Barak and rejected by Arafat is the latest example of the locus of the real problem; ever since the 1920s.
To in effect demand that the Israelis tolerate ever-expanding zones of harassing fire targeting its civilians (~ 10,000 rockets and mortar bombs in about 8 years), is a demand that Jews not defend themselves from attack.
Nor, does an appeal to geography transform the anti-Semitic implications of that underlying attitude into something materially different.
The demand that if Israel responds, it must have effectively zero casualties among the human shields used by the attacking side, is subtler but amounts to the same. Especially, as the objective evidence is that (i) they have taken extraordinary steps to minimise civilian casualties, and (ii) as ICRC observes, there is no credible evidence that they have abused WP munitions.
The revealed implications of too many remarks above, are therefore quite, quite, quite revealing.
As are the personal hostility and carelessness over truth otherwise evident above.
BOTTOMLINE: BU and its commenters need to clean up their act, if they are to have any credibility among the informed.
GEM of TKI
Technician // January 19, 2009 at 1:01 PM
I was wondering when YOU would rise again…Gem of TKI….different handle I see.
Not Saved // January 19, 2009 at 4:34 PM
I suppose when they bomb a hospital they must call that a “surgical strike”
Technician // January 19, 2009 at 5:13 PM
BOTTOMLINE: BU and its commenters need to clean up their act, if they are to have any credibility among the informed.
GEM of TKI
Wow!!!
I guess anyone who speaks out against Israeli aggression MUST be misinformed and lacking credibility……..wow..how many people like that must live in this world.
Technician // January 19, 2009 at 5:16 PM
FYI……
It was your ‘christian’ brethren who started the personal hostility, not to mention arrogance on this thread……but then again, as long as it is done in God’s name, I guess it is accepted as gospel.
ru4real // January 19, 2009 at 8:04 PM
Genocide is what is being carried out and has been carried out for years in Darfur
The people in Darfur are mainly Muslim and they are being killed and murdered by muslims.
They are intent in wiping out the ethnic ( African ) tribes the government being arabs.
Since 2003, ethnic populations of Darfur (Fur and Masali), have been consistently attacked by Arab militias (Janjaweed), enlisted by the Arab-ruled Sudanese government to burn villages and homes, massacre civilians and children, torture inhabitants, and rape both women and girls in an effort to “ethnically cleanse” Sudan of its ethnic population.
Since this time 2003, up to 200,000 people are estimated to have died in Darfur, and up to 2 million people have been driven from their homes.Thousands of civilians in the Darfur region have been killed or “disappeared” (kidnapped or stolen), millions have fled to refugee and internally displaced persons camps, land and villages have been ruined, all sources of supplies, food and water have been pillaged or destroyed, and women and children have been systematically raped or enslaved by government militias.
Most of the refugees and displaced persons from Darfur have lost whatever livestock or belongings they may have had before the government air strikes and the mass looting of the government-backed Janjaweed. Many have not survived the hundreds of miles it takes to reach a refugee or displaced persons camp.
The UN has declared this to be genocide of a people.
Yet how much news does it warrant?
This is muslim on muslim murder is it any less murder. This is the total eradication of millions of people .
Is anyone burning the Sudanese flag in the streets of London?
Is anyone saying the air strikes by the Sudanese Government on Mud huts are disproportionate?
No they are not.
another view // January 19, 2009 at 8:26 PM
ru4real
do you really think that the Palestinian supporters on this blog care about the facts and realities about which you speak?
Technician // January 19, 2009 at 8:36 PM
@ ru4real……
Do YOU ??
@ another view…….
Do YOU??
Does any of the Israeli supporters on this blog care either??
another view // January 19, 2009 at 8:38 PM
Technician
It seems that you have a brain with the dimensions of an abyss- one deep empty hole
Technician // January 19, 2009 at 9:10 PM
@ another view….
It is sometimes hard to answer your own questions …….isn’t it??
Your insults does nothing but to highlight your own self centered mentality.
The thread started IS about the Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Therefore it is only obvious that most, if not all the comments would be based on the topic.
I am sure that most right thinking people are concerned with all conflicts going on around the world, as it affects us all HUMAN beings.
Most commenters here are just following the subject of the thread.
Why dont you, if it is burning your soul so much, submit an article on Dafur to BU and start a thread, rather than trying to distract from the original one started by Bush Tea…….no one is stopping you.
I await you insults.
Technician // January 19, 2009 at 9:14 PM
It seems that you have a brain with the dimensions of an abyss- one deep empty hole…
Now that is rich!!!
One thing I must give you credit for though……..you made me laugh ……hard.
Did you put those words together all by yourself??
RLMAO!!!
David // January 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM
The shape of debate on this particular blog is analogous to the actual Israel/Palestine conflict.
Not Saved // January 20, 2009 at 12:31 AM
David,
On the contrary there is one significant difference from some of the contributors
Some of us are not referring to ancient bronze age / middle age texts (claiming them to written by supernatural forces ) for guidance.
Bush Tea // January 20, 2009 at 1:00 AM
Well, we have a ceasefire. Note well that Israeli elections are due in 3 weeks.
Great timing.
As to the effect of the war, I quote a BBC report -
————————————————–
“Polls quoted by Haaretz newspaper show Likud, on the eve of the military campaign, was set to win 32 seats in the 120-member Knesset, with Kadima on 30. Now they suggest Likud would be on 30, with Kadima down to 25.
————————————————
So the intended ‘plan’ seems to have worked. Now we only need to await the UNINTENDED consequences…..
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 7:41 AM
@ To Bush Tea…..
IMHO……this conflict had nothing to do with stopping rockets from Gaza.
We have a cease fire…yes. after 3 weeks of pounding, Hamas still has the ability to fire 30 rockets per day at Israel, yet they say, they have achieved their objectives.
Their only objective seemed to be strictly political.
The offensive started before Bush left because they knew thew could definitely depend on his support, Obama would have been a risk.
Now this cease fire comes just before elections.
Israel uses the same tactics that the Bush and Blair administrations have perfected over the years.
Instill enough fear in the citizens and they will bend to all of your demands without question.
Bush Tea // January 20, 2009 at 8:33 AM
@Technician
No question that the tactical intent appears to have been strictly political. There was no increased military threat. A six-month cease fire had only just ended (where the Hamas continued to be blockaded contrary to the terms of the ceasefire). Any military analysis would have gone for a continued or expanded ceasefire.
On the other hand, many Israeli politicians were under suspicion or actual charges of corruption.
Olmert, resigning after such corruption charges, and still smarting from the embarrassment of his adventure into Lebanon also saw the war as a way of ’saving his legacy’
The new woman Livni may not be a thief – but from my analysis she is a moron….
The war was designed to redirect Israeli public opinion from corruption and incompetence to ‘terror’ and survival. Polls show that it has done that.
So what if Gaza is destroyed and 1000s die?..they are only Palestinians…
But spiritual laws are intractable- you always reap exactly what you sow…
What Gods people what?
If indeed there ARE God’s people then the deserve tenfold the punishment for such behaviour as ordinary Gentiles.
Carlos // January 20, 2009 at 11:23 AM
Back to ‘Patinho’ and the other sadly ‘misinformed’ who have bought into the ‘Turnspeak’ Arab, propaganda lies, inverting, twisting and maligning historic ‘facts’ expressly for the purpose of making the ‘Jews’ appear as the oppressor, and the Palestinians look as the victim.
First FACT of history:
It was around 1400 B.C., well over 2000 years before the first Muslim invasion of Palestine (as the Romans renamed it A.D 135) that Israel WAS already established as a nation.
The ten tribes of the northern land known as Samaria called themselves Israel. The southern tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi became known as the Kingdom of Judah, from which the name ‘Jew’ came.
Because of apostasy, Israel suffered two captivities, the Assyrian in 721 B.C., and again in 586 B.C., the Babylonian captivity; though the Bible records that not all were taken to Babylon, a few were left in Judea by the Babylonians to maintain the land. Some were able to flee to Egypt and others to Arabia.
In 1949, after the birth of the state, Israelis rescued the Yemenite Jews from the warth of the Muslims. Known as ‘the wings of eagles.’ They were all airlifted to Israel. These Yemenite Jews trace their origins in Arabia back 2,500 years, during the time of the Babylonian invasion.
It is an historic fact, that the second holiest Islamic city in the world,( ‘Yathrib’ (Medina) , WAS first established by Jews, an amazing fact confirmed by historical sources. But, little is ever said about this. The story of widespread Jewish settlement in pre-Islamic Arabia is certainly one of the world’s best-kept secrets, as ‘Islam’ DID not exist until the 7th century, was never heard of until Mohammed came!
The First Palestinian Refugees:
As historian Joan Peters, writes:
“Thus evolved the flight of the first ‘Palestinian refugees’ – the Judean, or Jews.”
It is vitally important to understand how the early Jewish settlements came to Arabia; as these Jewish ‘refugees’ are seldom discused, and IS significant to what transpired, and therefore critical to understand today’s Middle East crisis.
Why is this important? Because, without understanding the pattern that developed toward the Jews in Arabia, and the Islamic tradition that HAS been followed ever since, from the Koran’s declarations of utter ‘hated’ for them, one will never be able to grasp the what then started in earnest from 1948-49, to DESTROY the Jews and their homeland, Israel.
Judaism was in fact very popular in parts of Arabia, prior to the birth of Mohammad. But, with the birth of ‘Islam’ all hell broke out. Mohammed and his disciples treated the Jews more severely than any other ‘unbelievers.’ Why? Because that had irritated him by not recognizing him as a prophet; therefore Mohammad decided these non-believers, had to be eliminated if he was going to fulfill his imperial ambitions.
He simply ordered an Islamic law: “Two religions may not dwell together on the Arabian Peninsula.
The historic FACTS, are, that Mohammad went after the Jewish communities of northern Arabia, systematically slaughtering the Jews, all of them. First, the Quraiza tribe was exterminated.
Mohammad said that “War is deception.” the complete annihilation of the two Arabian-Jewish tribes, with every man, woman and child slaughtered, is, according to the late Jewish historian and President Itzhak Ben-Zvi, “a tragedy for which no parallel can be found in Jewish history.”
As an example of their brutality and barbarity, after one Jewish town surrendered to the Muslims, approximately 1000 men were behaded in one day. The women and children were sold into slavery. (Guillaume, Islam, p.47-48).
Elsewhere, as attacks on Jews continued, some managed to survive. Under new Islamic policy, non-Muslims or “infidels” were permitted to maintain their land, so long as they paid a 50% tribute for ‘protection.’
Histtorian Peters write:
“Thus the Jewish dhimmi evolved, the robbery of freedom and political independence compounding the extortion and eventual expropriation of property. Tolerated between onslaughts and pillages from the Arab Muslim conquest onward, the non-Muslim dhimmi, predominantly Jewish but with Christian too, provided the important source of religious revenue through the “infidel’s” head tax. He became very quickly a convenient political scapegoat and whipping boy as well.”
Mohammad tells his followers, they can fight, raid, and pillage in the sanctified service and name of Allah, and keep the booty as well. Fighting is now raised to the level of a “holy wat” in the cause of Allah. In fact, an old Arabic word is dusted off and given new meaning “Jihad”, holy war.”
The historic facts, are, that the Jews legally, by centuries and centuries of natural citizenship, in Arabia, are now plundered by an explosive growth and popularity of Islam among Arabs, as supported by Islamic historian, Ali Dashti, who writes:
“The immediate step which secured the economic base and strengthened the prestige of the Muslims, was their seizure of the property of the Jews at Yathric.”
In fact the killing of Jews at Medina, the massacres of The Nadhir and Kainuka tribes, and the dispossession of property by Muslims set up what Joan Peters rightly calls, “the precedent of prey” a pattern that would be repeated again and again. The agrarian and merchant Jews lucky enough to escape death, would be plundered and exploited by nomadic Arabs. Islam not only GAVE them an excuse for such oppression, it COMMANDED it.
It is likely, that among Jewish ‘refgees’ fleeing from Arabia were of Jews whose ‘Palestinian” or ‘Judean’ ancestors had fled the Romans (circa AD 135).
Peters, makes a valid and strickingly imo]portant point, as she writes:
“Now they (Jews) returned to seventh-century Palestine, joining their Jewish brethren who HAD never left. Ironically, the Jewish refugees return coincided with the introduction of Arab conquerors from the desert; the very INVADERS who had FORCED themselves in and the Jews OUT of their homes in Arabia, would now PLUNDER Judah-Palestine in the identical pattern. And the Jews who inhabited many towns of ‘Palestine’ uninterruptedly would one day in the twentieth century be FORCED out as the Arabian Jews had been, by SLAUGHTER, or expropriation and terrorizing. The towns would then, in the later twentieth century, be touted as purely Arab Palestinian areas since time immemorial, just as the Arabian Peninsula had come to be perceived as “purely Arab,” when in fact the holy arab Muslim city of Medina had been originally settled by Jews.”
This is just scratching the surface, of historic ‘facts’ that have been cleaverly muted, overlooked, and otherwise maligned, by the well used Arab use of ‘Turnspeak’ the utter inverting, twisting, and distoring of ‘fact’ to make the Jews, the true ‘refugee’ and victim, of relentless Arab oppression, rape, pillage, extortion and killings, appear as the aggressor, and ‘occupier’ of their historic land, the state of Israel.
Will be back in a while to give a bit more of the truth and facts.
Carlos // January 20, 2009 at 1:12 PM
If as a ‘Christian’ I resolutely stand on the side of historic truth, facts, and reality, I am called a Zionist Christian, so be it, and I am not ashamed to be rediculed, for ‘truth’ will always overcome falsity, lies, distortion and hatred.
Until the past is fully explored, by willing minds, in an honest and truthful way, there is NO hope of rectifying historical injustices.
The historic fact, of the “Medina Legacy’ has established a pattern of ‘Institutionalized Islamic and anti-Semitism that is at the heart of, and in fact, the vey root of today’s Middle East crisis. Therefore, without addressing that reality, there is, there can be, NO hope in ever settling, the conflict.
The very ‘core’ of Koranic, Islamic, fundamentalism, especially as espoused by the faction of ‘Jihadists’ the ‘Terrorists’ is the DESTRUCTION and extermination of Israel, all Jews, and in fact to convert ALL of humanity, either through willing submission, OR, by force, these are the facts.
The Key to Islam.
Western people have such a difficult time comprehending Islam, because they fail to understand that IT IS a form of ‘Cultural Imperialism’ in which the religion and culture of 7th century Arabia are raised to the status of divine law.
For, there IS no separation of church and state, as we essentially know it in our Western civilization, there IS no secular realm in Islamic countries, thats why ALL of them are essentially ‘dictatorial’ extremely oppressive, regimes, no independent freedom of expression, and so on.
Incarceration without due process, the use of tortue, political asssssssssassination, the cutting off of hands, feet, ears, tongues, heads, and the gouging out of eyes, all these things are part of Islamic law today, because they were part of 7th century Arabian culture, all beginning with Mohammad.
Patinho, your assertion, that “Jews and Arabs lives peacefuuly in the Empire’ is a terible distortion of historic fact and reality.
Secondly, the constently repeated, ‘Myth’ that Israel is ‘Occupying’ the Palestinians land, in Gaza and other parts of Palestine, IS a monstrous ‘lie’ again from the ‘mother’ of all lies, Arab ‘Turnspeak’ a visious, venal, venomous, malignant, cynical inverting and utter distortion of ‘Fact’
The world seldom, if ever, hears about the more than 800,00 Jewish ‘refugees’ for that is what they are, NOT, (the Palestinains) who fled Arab terror and hatred and settled in Israel.
EXODUS, PHASE II.
The following are some indisputable facts.
In 1948 there were more than 850,000 Jews living in the Arab world.
NOT, European Jews as you incorrectly stated.
Before Israel became a state in 1948; there were between 125,00 and 135,00 who lived in Iraq; 75,000 lived in Egypt; 30,000 lived in Syria, 55,000 lived in Yemen; 8,000 lived in Aden; 265,000 lived in Morocco’ up to 140,000 lived in Algeria; over 105,000 lived in Tunisia; 5,000 lived in Lebanon; and some 38,000 lived in Libya.
Where are these Jews now? What happened to them? Where are their PROPERTY and FINANCIAL resources? Why are they NEVER mentione in the ‘Palestinian debate” that keeps being trumpeted in the ‘United Nations’ and the Media?
S As Joan Peters explains in her book, ‘From Time Immemorial.’
“The Arab world has been virtually emptied of its Jews, and the fledging Jewish state would bear the burden of its hundreds of thousands of Jewish Arab born ‘refugees’ almost in secret. So unknown and undisclosed are these Arab-born Jews and the plight they have faced – the camps, squalor, uprooting, loss of property and security, discontent, unemployment, and what they sensed to be neglect of their problems in Israel, that in countless conversations outside of the Middle East with academics or professionals, from university graduates to blue-collar workers, including Jews as well as non-Jews, when the question of the ‘Middle East refugees’ is raised, almost without exception the response is, “You mean the Palestinians – the Arabs, of course.” It is as though the sad and painful story of the Arab-born Jewish ‘refugees’ HAS been erased, their STRUGGLE covered over by a REVISION of the pages of history.”
WHY THE COVER UP?
Why is this not reported by the media” Why isn’t it chronicled? Why isn’t it remembered?
If the Arab nations are responsible for EXPELLING Jews in the same numbers as the much-publicized Arab refugees displaced after the creation of Israel, why isn’t the obvious solution a simple exchange?
The absolute enormity of this Muslim ‘Myth’ has been swallowed by the West is nowhere more graphically displayed and demonstrated than in this issue.
There is no moral equivalence in this situation.
FACT:
The Jews, after the creation of Israel in 1948, DID NOT drive out Palestinian refugees!
They WERE NOT threatened or killed, so as to terroize survivors into leaving. In fact, many Palestinians were begged to stay.
FACT:
When within 24 hours after Israel became a duly constituted state, in 1948; the Arab countries who were planning to EXTERMINATE the Jews from their rightful, ancient homeland, ordered the ‘Arabs’ so-called Palestinians, TO LEAVE Israel, ‘temporarily’ so the combined Muslim armies could ANNIHILATE Jews and the new state.
The Arab Palestinians WERE then DELIBERATELY forced into refugee camps and NOT permitted by their Arab brothers to intergrate into the society of their unwilling hosts, even though they WERE FELLOW Muslims.
Can you honestly fathom this? These Arab countries, with VAST land areas, who could easily have assimilated these brothers of theirs, WHO they ordered to leave Israel, SO they could destroy them, NOW, keep them in deliberate ‘refugge’ camps, under duress, so as to make Israel look like the agressor, and ‘occupier’. A massive LIE.
These Aran nations, DID not even try to help them, their fellow Muslim brothers! Instead, they prevailed upon the United Nations to supply the refugees’ needs. Kept in these camps by their ‘own’ people, NOT the Jews, for more than 50 years, being used as political pawsns so Muslims negotiators can continue to ‘trump’ up charges of “Israeli aggression.” Turnspeak, over and over again, repeated, until this mother of all ‘lies’ is accepted as the truth.
More truth and facts in a little while, exposing some more popular ‘Muslim Mythology.’
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 2:12 PM
When you are quoting these facts, can you give references?
I see you have no problem quoting the exact passage from the Bible.
It would help to fully understand your view point if, perhaps, we the ignorant ones, had points of references to look up and research. Failing this , you are asking people to take your word as truth.
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Palestine refugee camps
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from List of Palestinian refugee camps)
Jump to: navigation, search
Palestine refugee camps were established after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War to accommodate the Palestine refugees who fled from the war.
This article lists the current Palestine refugee camps with current population and year they were established.
The UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) defines a Palestine refugee as:
“Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.”
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 5:28 PM
Carlos says……..
FACT:
The Jews, after the creation of Israel in 1948, DID NOT drive out Palestinian refugees!
They WERE NOT threatened or killed, so as to terroize survivors into leaving. In fact, many Palestinians were begged to stay.
——————————————————————————————————–
Fact:
Israeli Terror Tactics Drive Out Palestinians in 1948 and 1967
By Andrew I. Killgore
“We shall spirit the penniless population (Palestinians) across the border… the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”
— Theodor Herzl, father of Political Zionism (Diary, Vol. II, page 24, 1898)
“Palestine will be as Jewish as England is English.”
— Chaim Weizmann, first President of Israel (From Trial and Error, his autobiography)
The high-ranking UN official could hardly believe his eyes. At least 35,000 Palestinian residents of the huge West Bank refugee camps of Aqabat Jabr and Fin Sultan near Jericho were missing. As he drove by the just-destroyed camps, he could see only a handful of people picking through the rubble.
Dr. Laurence Michelmore, the American Commissioner General of the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA), knew that refugees had poured from the West Bank into Jordan after the outbreak of the Arab-Israeli war on June 5, 1967. Still, it was bewildering only a week later, on June 12, to see the normally bustling camps silent and empty in the hot Jericho sun.
A Second Exodus
Michelmore already realized that UNRWA faced the staggering task of caring for more than 200,000 “new” refugees who comprised 1967’s “second exodus” from Palestine. More than one-fifth of the inhabitants had fled when Israeli soldiers seized East Jerusalem and the West Bank during six days of fighting. They joined the 750,000 refugees from the first exodus of 1948-1949, who were already overtaxing available UNRWA resources.
The brutal Israeli Army tactics which triggered the little-known “second exodus” from Palestine, emptying such camps as Aqabat Jabr and Ein Sultan, may be repeated in further mass expulsions in the 1990s. Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir has said publicly that Israel needs the West Bank for Soviet Jews. Does a third exodus to “cleanse” the West Bank and Gaza Strip entirely of Palestinians lie ahead? And then will Israeli extremists like Rabbi Meir Kahane have their way and set off a fourth exodus to “clean” 800,000 Palestinians from Israel proper, and finally realize the dream of Dr. Chaim Weizmann?
Israel’s tactics in expelling or terrorizing 750,000 Palestinians into fleeing their homes in the “first exodus” of 1948 and 1949 are by now fairly well known. The deliberate brutality employed to drive away another 200,000 Palestinians in 1967 is known to hardly anyone except the Palestinians themselves.
It began as soon as Israeli forces reached the Jordan Valley in June 1967. Israeli bulldozers immediately began destroying the camps there. Remaining residents had to flee to avoid being buried in the rubble of their homes. Israeli planes thundered over them at low level, contributing to their panic.
As Israeli loudspeakers boomed, “Go to King Hussein,” hundreds of trucks lined up to transport the terror-stricken refugees to the Jordan River’s shattered bridges.
Ruthless behavior by Israeli forces is documented by UNRWA sources in the monograph, “River Without Bridges,” by Peter Dodd and Halim Barakat, and an article by Barakat in International Migration Review (1973) entitled, “The Palestinian Refugees: An Uprooted Community Seeking Repatriation.”
Looting, destruction of houses, detention of male civilians, deliberate shaming of old people and women and the killing of “suspect” persons were all employed, not only in the Jordan Valley but elsewhere in the West Bank. Palestinian villages near the Latrun salient were treated with special ferocity. Villagers who left for a few hours to escape cannon fire came back to see red soil and departing Israeli bulldozers where their houses had been. One distraught woman scooped up a pillow and carried it away, thinking at first it was her small daughter.
A Repeat of 1948?
All of the new refugees of 1967 had heard of, and some had personally experienced, the cruel and ruthless behavior of Israeli forces in 1947 and 1948. Some feared the terrible fate of Deir Yassin, a village near Jerusalem where, in April 1948, after an artillery bombardment by the Haganah regulars who became the Israeli army after the state’s creation a month later, Jewish irregular forces of Menachem Begin’s Irgun Zvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir’s Lehi (Stern Gang) massacred 250 Palestinian men, women and children. The fears of mothers among the refugees fleeing such villages were so acute that they covered their children’s mouths to keep them from crying and being discovered and killed by the Israeli soldiers.
After the 1967 fighting ended, some 175,000 victims of the second exodus applied to return from their refuge in Jordan to their homes in the West Bank. To signal good intentions to the world, Israel readmitted 14,000. Such repatriations suddenly stopped, however, revealing the true intentions of an Israel unshakably determined to rid itself of all Palestinians.
A Study in Madness
A planned Palestinian Exodus III failed in 1982 when Israel’s war in Lebanon went awry. That war, a four-step study in madness, was “fathered” by General Ariel Sharon, already known as “The Butcher” for his earlier atrocities against Palestinians. Its purposes were to
1. defeat the Syrian Army,
2. terrorize the 400,000 Palestinians in Lebanon into fleeing across Syria to Jordan,
3. bring down King Hussein and
4. expel the (then) 900,000 West Bank Palestinians into Jordan to form what Israel would claim was the Palestinian state.
But Syria managed to avoid defeat and held fast in the Beka’a Valley. Nor did the Palestinians flee, despite Israel’s massacre, using Maronite militiamen proxies, of an estimated 1,500 Palestinian men, women and children in Beirut’s Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.
Israeli forces also killed 20,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, in the course of linking up with Maronite militias to surround and besiege West Beirut. When they eventually pulled back from most of Lebanon, after suffering light losses in manpower and heavy losses in world opinion and self esteem, King Hussein was still on his throne, and the West Bankers were still in their ancient homeland.
Evidence abounds, however, that Israel still intends to make Palestine as Jewish as England is English. Inhuman expulsions of Palestinians in technical violation of Israel’s “residency” requirements for the West Bank continue.
Although these are still relatively small, mass expulsions will be an immediate danger if Ariel Sharon becomes Prime Minister of Israel. Not only does he share the determination of Israeli extremists to create an all Jewish Israel, his 1982 misadventure in Lebanon demonstrates that Sharon is fanatical enough to resort to genocide to carry it out.
Andrew I. Killgore, a former US ambassador to the state of Qatar, is publisher of the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.
Carlos // January 20, 2009 at 6:01 PM
Technician:
The primary sources from which I quote, are:
‘From Time Immemorial – The Origins of The Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine’ by Joan Peters. Is a National Bestseller, a literal momumental, painstaking, incredeable piece of research.
Here are a few comments on this masterpiece of research work.
“This book is a historical event in itself…” Barbara Tuchman.
“A superlative book…To understand what is happening in the Middle East, one must begin with its past, which Miss Peters traces to the present with unmatched skill.” -theodore H. White.
“The massive research Ms. Peters did…would have daunted Hercules. In the course of its she turned up a great deal of interesting material from Ottoman records, the reports of Western consular officers and observant travelers and other sources.”
New york Times Book review.
“A remarkable document in itself…The refugees are not the problem but the excuse.” – Washington Post Book World.
“This book, if read, will change the mind of our generation. If understood, it could also effect the history of the future.” – New Republic.
“The reader comes away not only rethinking the Middle East refugee problem, but also the extent to which propaganda can be swallowed whole for a lack of information.” -Los Angeles Times.
“With determination, brilliant detective work and patience, Peters managed to unearth a foundation of factuality, research and commitment to truth.” -Toronto Star.
“It is astonishing that From Time Immemorial is, to my knowledge, the first book in the English language which tells the story of the expulsion of Jews from the Arab countries and the indifference of the world community to their plight. Ms. Peters’ book is must reading.- Arthur J. Goldberg, former Associate Justice, U.S. Supreme Court,
“Why have such…crucial facts…benn concealed so long?…By the times Peters finishes her case, there is little doubt left to justify Arab assertions to reclaim ‘their land’ based on ‘historical’ right’ or to say that Jews displaced Palestinian Arabs.” – Midstream.
These are just a sample of the comments made about this awesome research done by Peters.
It will blow your mind, concering the ‘Truth’ and facts re Israel/Palestine, hundreds of pages of footnotes, etc, etc.
One of my other sources, is Hal Lindsey’s “The Everlasting HATRED, The Roots of Jihad.” Author of 20 best-selling books, with a total of over 40 million in print. Lindsey, is a serious Christian, and well respected author.
“Islam Unveiled, The True Desert Storm, by Dr. Robert A. Morey, is the Excutive director of the Research and Education Foundation. Again, this book is throughly researched and well presented with facts about Islam.
Anyone, with a ‘willing’ mind, for historic truth and facts, must consult the library of the informed; not the ‘Turnspeak’ of Arab propaganda.
Will get back to you later with more facts.
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 6:04 PM
For those like Carlos, who are so quick to quote the Qur’an and judge the Muslims and degrade their holy book by calling Allah the devil in disguise, here is what the Jewish Holy book has to say to its people…….
The Jewish Torah in the Old Testament book Numbers 33:51-56 states:
“51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.
54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man’s inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit.
55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
56 Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.”
————————————————————————–
And you want to tell me that they were begging the Palestinians to stay???
Here is what it says about genocide of the Palestinian people…….
The Jewish Torah in the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy 7:1-6 commands the Jews to genocide the native inhabitants of Palestine:
“1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.”
Now tell me,since I am ignorant, is there much difference between Jews and Arabs?
What peace what!!
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 6:23 PM
Here is a quote from Bill Barnwell.
This makes so much sense…
According to the dispensationalist, modern Israel is always right and the Arabs are always wrong. Not only that but the people who make up modern Israel are “God’s chosen people” and hence can never be questioned (according to the New Testament, however, God’s chosen people are people of faith in Christ). This has lead to a very uneven and unfair approach from most modern day Christians to the problems of the Middle East. Israel certainly has a right to exist as a nation. There are good reasons to be generally supportive of Israel. But Israel is not always right, and every atrocity or bad move by today’s state of Israel is not honoring or glorifying to God. Also, the idea that we should unflinchingly support Israel in every circumstance is rooted in bad theology and the silly idea that God will curse us if we criticize Israel (a bad interpretation of Gen. 12:3). It’s time to stop letting faulty theology influence our foreign policy. Some Christians should also stop cheerleading violence and problems in the Middle East and stop seeing any proponent of peace as being a candidate for the Antichrist.
Carlos // January 20, 2009 at 6:43 PM
Technician:
What you have quoted as ‘FACT’ are laced with half-truths, distortions, etc, etc., which have been dissimnated in order to ‘cloud’ the real historic reality of what actually occured.
‘War’ is an ungly thing, especially when the real agressors, the Arabs, want and HAVE openly declared, repeatedly, that Israel, MUST NOT EXIST.
Yes, Jews and Israel have also done bad things, no doubt; BUT, this must not be allowed to create ’strawmen’ and ‘redherrings’ for the EXPRESS purpose of taking us away from the ‘central’ truth, regarding the ‘historic’ facts, that ARE not been taken into consideration, as to why Israel has no option other than to defend her rights.
Will be back later.
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 7:08 PM
OMG……..Carlos you are impossible!!!
Hey ,,,you know what?
I am done ok. You believe that the Arabs are wrong, everything you say is gospel because YOU say so.
Muslims are all doomed because they worship the devil in disguise, the Catholics are mislead and deceived.
As long as any opinion differs from yours, it is ‘laced with half truths’.
Can you tell me what makes yours the absolute truth?
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 7:10 PM
Are you saying that the quotes from the Jewish Holy book are half truths??
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 7:19 PM
You see Carlos ….I have no issue with Israel’s right to exist or their right to defend themselves.
What I do have an issue with however, is the atrocities committed by them under the pretense of ‘defense’.
What did they achieve, other than political mileage and the birth of a new generation Palestinian militants bent on revenge, from this exercise?
You and others like yourself keep on hoping for the ‘rebuilding of the third temple’…..for me I will continue to deal with the day to day truths as they happen.
Georgie Porgie // January 20, 2009 at 7:40 PM
Technician
Carlos has done a very good job in presenting the historical and Biblical position of Evangelical Christians & Theologians. His position is sound.
I believe that Israel are the people of God. However, like Christians they may/will not live up to thier reputation as long as they chose not to believe him and obey Him, no more than your children will faithfully represent the values taught in your household if they chose to embark on a path of rebellion.
You quoted accurately from the Pentateuch. You pointed out the instructions that God gave to Israel at the time of the Conquest of Canaan. These are instructions that many non Christians find very revolting, even though it has been the pattern of behavior exhibited by conquering naions ever since.
These things affect our sensibilities, when we choose. But there is nothing pretty about war then, through the epochs of time, or today; nor will it be at the eschaton at Armageddon.
You have now agreed that Israel has the right to defend its territory. This is what I think that Carlos has gone to pains to point out. I started to do the same, but I tend not to waste time in arguing with folk who are not listening to what I am saying, especially when I know that I am correct.
Some might question how I know that I am correct; but that is not really the issue now.
I think that most of the folk in Israel today are in unbelief, just as the prophets predicted. Their behavior is to be expected, as they are not depending on thier God to fight thier battles for them, just as many believers do from time to time or most of the time.
There is a lot that we understand about prophecy because of those prophecies that have indeed come to pass. Many things are coming to pass even as we speak. There is also much that we dont fully understand about either prophecy, God’s commands or his ways and methods.
Recent comments by some posters on the reason for the attack on Gaza do seem to be correct. The attacks seem to indeed be politically motivated, rather than defence induced. But they do have a right to defend themselves. And if the truth be told they are not now occupying all of the land promised to Abraham in the Genesis 15 reitteration of the Abrahamic covenant.
JC // January 20, 2009 at 7:47 PM
Carlos I don’t want anymore history lessons that is the truth! Everything that was done to those PEOPLE were inhumane full stop!
And Technician you are right children who have seen their parents and loved ones die will FOR SURE wil seek revenge!
Allah, Jesus Christ, His Empreor Selassie I ……… what ever you all choose to call him would have never respected this TERROR!
Georgie Porgie // January 20, 2009 at 7:54 PM
Actually JC, we have not yet begun to see terror in the fertile crescent. And the Holy Bible predicts it!
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 8:53 PM
@ GP…
You quoted accurately from the Pentateuch. You pointed out the instructions that God gave to Israel at the time of the Conquest of Canaan. These are instructions that many non Christians find very revolting, even though it has been the pattern of behavior exhibited by conquering nations ever since.
***************************************************************
Then, are you telling me GP, that these instructions were only to be followed or valid for the conquest of Caanan?
I have always agreed that Israel has a right to protect itself, just not with the disproportionate force used.
With all due respect GP, you look at this situation as prophecy being fulfilled and that is all well and good for you.
Are we to stand idly by without emotion, condemnation or responsibility for our action just because it is prophecy?
Does the slaughter of innocent men, women and children, not to mention the collective punishment and suffering, justify a prophecy that may or may not happen?
Who or what gives anyone the right to dismiss another’s religion as wrong?
There are so many religions with so many Gods, how do we know which is the true one.
In the meantime, wouldn’t it be wise to be tolerant of others, regardless of their beliefs?
Isn’t this the problem that started the whole mess in the world?
Now you see, why to me, religion is like modern day slavery.
Georgie Porgie // January 20, 2009 at 9:14 PM
Then, are you telling me GP, that these instructions were only to be followed or valid for the conquest of Caanan? NO I AM NOT SAYING THAT. I am saying that you quoted the Word correctly, and pointed out the context. I offered no other opinion.
I have always agreed that Israel has a right to protect itself, just not with the disproportionate force used. I AGREE THAT THEY SHOULD PROTECT THEMSELVES ALSO. And I agreed with other commenters that perhaps their motive at this time might have very well be political rather than defensive.
With all due respect GP, you look at this situation as prophecy being fulfilled and that is all well and good for you. I AGREE
Are we to stand idly by without emotion, condemnation or responsibility for our action just because it is prophecy? I CANNOT DETERMINE HOW ANYONE SHOULD REACT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. I CAN ONLY DECIDE HOW I SHOULD REACT.
Does the slaughter of innocent men, women and children, not to mention the collective punishment and suffering, justify a prophecy that may or may not happen? THAT IS A MATTER FOR GOD TO DECIDE NOT ME. THAT LIKE MANY OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPENS TO MYSELF AND OTHERS IS TOTALLY OUT OF MY HANDS.
I cant decide if the fulfillment of a prophecy is justified or not. I can only opine on my understanding of the prophetic scripture, and point out if I think that a prophecy is being fulfilled or not. I AM A COMMENTATOR NOT A JUDGE. AS I SAID IN MY LAST POST, THERE IS MUCH THAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND
Who or what gives anyone the right to dismiss another’s religion as wrong? I DON’T DECIDE IF SOME ONE”S RELIGION IS RIGHT OR WRONG. IM NOT TOO INTERESTED IN RELIGION IM INTERESTED IN BEING CHRISTLIKE AND OBEYING GOD’S WORD, AND WILL ADMIT THAT I OFTEN FAIL IN THIS REGARD.
There are so many religions with so many Gods, how do we know which is the true one. I CANT ANSWER THAT FOR YOU. THAT IS A PERSONAL THING. I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD
In the meantime, wouldn’t it be wise to be tolerant of others, regardless of their beliefs? I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH TOLERANCE. YOU WILL NOTICE THAT I OPTED OUT OF THE DEBATE FOR MOST OF ITS COURSE.
Isn’t this the problem that started the whole mess in the world?
Now you see, why to me, religion is like modern day slavery. OF COURSE RELIGION IS SLAVERY BUT CHRISTIANITY WAS DESIGNED TO SET MEN FREE! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!
Technician // January 20, 2009 at 9:27 PM
With the greatest respect…as usual GP.
Dissident // January 20, 2009 at 10:01 PM
Technician, you said, “I CANNOT DETERMINE HOW ANYONE SHOULD REACT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. I CAN ONLY DECIDE HOW I SHOULD REACT.”
Respectfully, perhaps that part of the problem. Maybe we should all REACT less and RESPOND more. Because reactions are invariably negative and often lead to incorrect actions, whereas responses are usually thought our beforehand and are usually positive [semantics?].
The State of Israel, because of their recent history, has often REACTED strongly to all attacks on their security. I would hazard a guess that this is because of their post-WWII “Never Again” pledge. So what may seem disproportionate to you may seem entirely reasonable to an officer of the IDF on the ground in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.
Just trying to understand…War is Hell!
Dissident // January 20, 2009 at 10:08 PM
Technician, my sincere apologies, I incorrectly quoted you, when the REACT quote was from Georgie Porgie!
My mistake! Mea culpa! Sorry ’bout that.
Carlos // January 20, 2009 at 11:09 PM
Technician, your quotations from ‘Killgore’ are most unfortunate, why?
This man, is utterly without credibility on predictions, analysis or assessment of the history to that point in time.
He is terribly biased, or downright dishonest. His prediction of a Sharon Premiership are so far from what happened that it CLEARLY shows he does NOT know what he is talking about.
That he was cited by you as if he were authoritative says a lot about what is going on. Someone was looking for mud to sling, and did not pause to fact check or test for balance.
I regret I have to spend this precious time dealing with this ‘Killgore’ instead of giving more facts and truth about Israel/Palestine, BUT, it is necessary to dispel the blatant untruths and utter distortions of this man, for the benifit of those who just don’t know the facts.
CRITICISM:
“The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs has been characterized by the ‘Commmitte for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America as “virulently anti-Israel,” [3] as “bitterly anti-Zionist” and “the most conspiratorially-mined of the anti-Israel forces” by the Middle East Quarterly, [4] as “a journal known for its strong anti-Israel bias” by Honest Reporting, [5] and as “an anti-Israel publication that frequently serves as an apologist for Muslim American groups advocating anti-Semitism and support of terrorism” by the Anti-Defamation League, [6] Canada’s National Post has also described the magazine as “anti-Israel,” [7] the Jewish Virtual Library has stated that the “WRMEA” publishes many articles that are considered to be anti-Israel and anti-Zionist”, [8] the Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles notes that critics view it as “guilty” of frequent factual distortions” and “an unrelenting polemic against Israel”, [2] and Jonathan Tobin, executive editor of The Jewish Exponent has described the publication as “the guidebook to the Arabist lobby in the United States” that “specializes in defaming Israel.” [9]
Technician, and this is the source that you attempt to quote from, in defense of your position!
Tomorrow, I will deal specifically with “Killgore’s” maligning of ‘facts’ about Israel from what he misrepresented, all plainly done for the purpose of distorting the truth; this man has no credibility as knowledgeable, as he maliciously twists Weizmann on ‘as English…”
I respectfully say to you, that like most others, you are unable to discern and recognize ‘psuedo’ writings, from the genuine ones, a most serious problem in today’s world, misleading vast numbers of people, who are sincerely ‘ignorant’ to so much historic facts.
Have a good night.
Carlos // January 20, 2009 at 11:15 PM
Technician: The info quoted in my last thread was taken from:
WWW. wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Report_on_Middle_East_Affairs# Crit.
Bush Tea // January 21, 2009 at 12:38 AM
@GP
I am sure that you know that the whole ethos before the resurrection of Jesus was fundamentally different to that which has obtained since.
God set standards of righteousness by establishing the ten commandments and, for Israel, additional standards of behaviour and conduct were set because they were “God’s people”.
The general rule was to obey the commandments and expect an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
It would have been completely expected and normal at that time to have the level of ruthlessness spelt out by Technician in his reference from Numbers.
However…
After the single most phenomenal event in history, (when a BBE gave up his status as God to become a man and to die as the ultimate sacrifice – all because BBE loved the project that we call life on earth.) the rules were fundamentally changed.
First of all, God’s people were no longer the Israelis, but now were those who ‘believed in this saviour and who ‘keep his commandments’. And his commandments are two:
Love God with all your heart, and
love your neighbour as you love yourself.
From a ‘Christian’ perspective therefore we need only analyse the extent to which the participants meet these two applicable commandments.
The days of solving neighbour -problems by exterminating them, they families, livestock and lifestyles have long gone.
As President Lincoln said, the best way to destroy our enemies – is to make them our friends… This is the current standard for “God’s people” in dealing with enemies.
Can we please stop exploring the history of who was right or wrong or who started it all??? Leave that for the UN to spend their time on. It really is not relevant to our main discussion.
The FACTS are that this ‘war’ was initiated by corrupt men who saw it as an opportunity to distract the electorate from their focus on corruption and incompetence and to refocus them on ’safety and terror’.
Unfortunately, they underestimated the power of the internet to expose the inhumane and heart wrenching destruction of life and property that resulted from their little adventure.
This has created a wave of anger and revulsion across the world -and especially in the region. This wave has the potential to become a tsunami of epic proportions……
Carlos // January 21, 2009 at 11:00 AM
Bush Tea:
Unfortunately, your perspective on this most serious mess in the Middle East, is rather simplistic, and cannot be just pushed under the carpet, as the New Testament, this dispensation, shows The Lord Jesus Christ, specifically speaking to this end-time crisis; Paul deals with it in his Epistles to the Thessalonians, as IT is very central to the unfolding inferno of destruction between Israel and other ME nations.
As you rightly said, though, “This wave has the potential to become a tsunami of epic proportions.”
Yes, it is, and no one can stop it! But, the wicked, Satan inspired ‘man’ the ultimate ‘Anti-Christ’ will soon make his appearance, connected, no doubt with the Global economic crisis, and bring a ’solution’ of Satanic deception, that will deceive the entire world into a false sense of security and peace for all; as even Israel will fall for this, and sign a ‘Seven-year peace treaty’ with him.
Georgie Porgie // January 21, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Bush Tea
Like all serious theologians and Bible students I study the Bible in a dispensational way, and am well aware of the dispensation of law, which ended at Pentecost, when the dispensation of grace or the Church age began.
I don’t agree with the erroneous view that God’s people are no longer the Israelis, but are now those who ‘believe in the Saviour. The teaching of Romans 9-11 clearly teach that the gentiles were grafted in, and this concept is reinforced in much of the Pauline epistles; being particularly emphasized in Ephesians chapter two. The grafting in of the gentiles is of course illustrated in the story of Ruth in the OT.
Like you, I don’t think that the way to solve problems of contiguous nations or countries is by exterminating them, they families, livestock and lifestyles. However, you and I both know that it is not always possible to make our enemies our friends, or to love them as ourselves. Also if I come and attack you and your family without cause, I cant see why I should have the right to determine the extent or intensity of your response.
I don’t really care what Lincoln said, since he is/was NOT the sole authority for faith and practice.
Now I want you to understand that I am not taking any sides in the conflict, because I know what the outcome will be, and things will play out according to the scropt in Holy Writ.
As Carlos correctly states, no one can stop this conflict, so you can sit before your tv, opine on the internet or tear your hair out, or even scoff at Bible believers and expositors. For it is indeed true that “ the wicked, Satan inspired ‘man’ the ultimate ‘Anti-Christ’ will soon make his appearance, connected, no doubt with the Global economic crisis, and bring a ’solution’ of Satanic deception, that will deceive the entire world into a false sense of security and peace for all; as even Israel will fall for this, and sign a ‘Seven-year peace treaty’ with him.”
There will be more fighting till that happens, and when the AntiChrist breaks the treaty mid way after two and a half years, Israel will be on the receiving end until Christ makes his appearance.
It may well be fact that this ‘war’ was initiated by corrupt men who saw it as an opportunity to distract the electorate from their focus on corruption and incompetence and to refocus them on ’safety and terror’.
It may well be fact that they underestimated the power of the internet to expose the inhumane and heart wrenching destruction of life and property that resulted from their little adventure.
It may well be fact that this has created a wave of anger and revulsion across the world -and especially in the region, and that this wave has the potential to become a tsunami of epic proportions.
However, exploring the history of the conflict is indeed relevant to the discussion, because what we are seeing played out today, and what will occur in the years to come has been predicted in the Bible, and relates to the question IS THIS THE START OF WORLD WAR THREE?
Bush Tea // January 21, 2009 at 1:06 PM
@GP
Normally, I try to avoid these types of arguments since I have long learnt of their futility. However I will make an exception in your case because of the level of respect that I have developed for your open mindedness.
Prophecy is NOT predestination. Do you think that Bush Tea is not aware of EXACTLY what is about to occur? – in vivid detail, my friend.
BUT you need to be aware that these things will not happen because they were prophesied, but because we, collectively have abused and rejected God’s set spiritual laws.
What will happen will happen BECAUSE of the collective will, actions, intent and wickedness of us all.
The fact that some events were prophesied only reflects that a superior level of intelligence, not subject to time and space like us mortals, has taken the trouble to FOREWARN us of the likely consequences of our choices.
If we were intelligent and wise enough to take heed, then the results (and the events prophesied) could well be completely different…
I am disappointed that you reject the concept of loving those that hate you, and that you reserve to yourself the right to retaliation.
The ability to love your enemy is one of the fruit by which you are to be known.
For example, when someone seeks to unfair a real Christian, they should feel moved to ask God to take it easy on that person, based on past experiences, and out of concern for the retribution that inevitably befalls the offender.
Even when his own people chose Barabbas over him, and he was cruelly crucified – did Jesus seek or contemplate retaliation? or did he ask BBE to forgive then since they knew not what they were doing…?
Micro Mock Engineer // January 21, 2009 at 5:26 PM
“Now I want you to understand that I am not taking any sides in the conflict, because I know what the outcome will be, and things will play out according to the scropt in Holy Writ.”
——————————–
GP, I encourage you to reflect on that statement. IMHO, the apocalyptic bent of many Christians, especially when reinforced by dispensational theology is very dangerous as it biases Christians against social action.
Don’t disengage from events around you… God wants us to ‘take sides’ not be passive observers… salt of the earth GP… salt of the earth.
Both you and BT are underestimating the resilience of the ‘human spirit’. The end is inevitable, but it is entirely within our power to hasten or delay it… believe what you will, but history has taught me that immanentizing the eschaton is unhealthy.
Georgie Porgie // January 21, 2009 at 6:23 PM
ME
My apocalyptic bent reinforced by dispensational theology does not stop me from engaging in social action or events around me. Of course God wants us to ‘take sides’ in areas where we can help as the salt of the earth. This includes rightly dividing the Word and exposition thereof on BU. Lol.
The end is indeed inevitable, and the powers of evil seem to out number the good and are doing a good job of hastening the end. Of course the end will ensue rapidly after the believers are taken out of the world as taught in 2 Thessalonians 2.
I like the new phrase that you are introducing into the literature….the immanentizing of the eschaton. Don’t think that one is known yet at Dallas. Im sure Constable et all will be delighted with that one.
Micro Mock Engineer // January 21, 2009 at 6:56 PM
LOL GP, credit for introducing that phrase goes to the German philosopher Eric Voegelin who used it in one of his famous 1951 lectures. This is what he said: “The problem of an eidos in history, hence, arises only when a Christian transcendental fulfillment becomes immanentized. Such an immanentist hypostasis of the eschaton, however, is a theoretical fallacy.”
Incidentally, I’ve been reading Dr. Constable’s notes… very informative.
Carlos // January 21, 2009 at 9:33 PM
@ Technician, a bit more accurate information from the post 1948 period.
As has been shown, hundreds of thousands of Arab-born Jews, apart from a inherent desire to have, and return to a ‘National’ homeland, they had to literally flee from these Middle East countries, who refused them their rights as citizens to sell their properties, etc., and therefore left almost pennyless, now having to try and resettle in their new state.
But, as Joan Peters writes:
“A strange and unlikely invitation was extended through the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in 1975. Farouk Kaddoumi, then PLO political department head, declared that all the Jews who had fled from Arab states since 1948 were welcome “to return and exercise their full rights.”
Peters then goes on to relate:
“One day later an Iraqi broadcast from Radio Baghdad echoed the PLO offer to “return,” particularly to the 140,000 Iraq-born Jews who are now in Israel. The Iraqi government underscored its invitation two weeks afterward, with a paid advertisements in selected newspapers around the world. Readers of the New York Times, the Toronto Star, or Le Monde would have found the ad dificult to overlook; in half-inch boldface letters, “Iraqi Jews” were “invited to return,” The invitation excluded jews who were Zionists, because “the latter is…racist…directed against Palestinian Arabs…” (From Time Immemorial, The Origins Of The Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine, p.11).
Clearly, this was a propaganda ploy, as commmon sense would have to conclude, that the vast majority of Jews support Israel and therefore Zionist in sympathy.
As Peters then state: “According to the Toronto paper, the “real purpose of the ad was to emphasize the “Zionism-is-racism.” The editorial concluded that “Iraq’s ‘come-home’…hypocritical gesture…won’t fool any Jews in Canada, and it shouldn’t mislead anf other Canadians.” (Ibid., p12).
Interestingly, as Peters reveals: “The PLO’s Kaddoumi has never pretended to hospitality toward the them. In fact, almost simultaneously with his invitation, Kaddoumi had told Newsweek, “This Zionist ghetto of Israel must be destroyed.” (Ibid.,p.12).
What is the point here? Why were the Arabs attempting to extend a hand, however disingenuous, to the Jews, what was really behind this?
Well, we must not forget that before the crushing 1967 “Six-Day” war that defeated the Arab countries, by Israel, the “Palestine-for-the-Palestinians” cause was not gaining the momentum as expected. Peters explains:
“The prominent Arab Palestinian activist, writer, and innovator Musa Alami tried virtually singlehandedly to interest the Arab world in this propaganda program in 1948. in Iraq he was told by the Prime Minister that all that was needed was “a few brooms” to drive the Jews into the sea; by confidants of Ibn saud in Cairo, that “once we get the green light from the British we can easily throw out the Jews.” (Ibid.,p.12)
The point of what was taking place at that time, 1947, cannot be stressed enough, regarding WHO were behind the insistance, that ALL Arabs who were residing in the land area, now about to be declared the new state of Israel, November 1947 by United Nations’ partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.
While this planning by world authorities for Israel’s statehood was in its completion stages; the Arab states were hastily planning the destruction of Isreal in her embryonic birth, and as Peters says:
“Thousands of Arabs, including the more affuent, left for nearby Aran states before Jweish statehood. When Israel’s independence was declared in 1948, the Arab forces combined to CRUSH IT.” (Ibid., p.12) emphasis added.
This essential, historic fact, that has been deliberatly overlooked, and purposly muffled and muted, by the Arabs, and terribly inverted by people like ‘Killgore’ to make the Israelis appear as the one who kicked out the Arabs from Israel, is a diabolical lie, which cannot stand up the facts of what actually transpired.
Beckoning to the Arabs.
Historian Peters writes:
“At the time of the 1948 war, Arabs in Israel too were invited by their fellow Arabs – invited to “leave” while the “invading” Arab armies would purge the land of the Jews. The invading Arab governments were certain of a quick victory; leaders warned the Arabs in Israel to run for their lives.” (Ibid., p.13).
Can any honest, right thinking person, begin to imagine what this was like, for the Jews, who after centuries and centuries of dispersion, persecution, treated like ‘dog’s’ as second class citizens, then denied their legal rights of property, etc, etc., fleeing to their ancient homeland, about to try and make a new life and beginning, ONLY, to now have to face WITHIN 24 hours of statehood, a combined attack from Arab countries, whose sole intent and purpose was to DESTROY them!
And yet, with little or almost no millitary strength, against the combined Arab forces, Israel, not even 3 days old as a state, miraculously survives, can any one not see the Almighty hand of God, the One who gave them this ancient land in Genesis; and swore by His Sovereign covenantal promise, that once their dispersion throughout the world, after over 2000 years, that when He would re-gather them back to their ‘home-land’ that NEVER again would they EVER be uprooted; Yes, they would come under virulent, hateful attempts by their Arab adversaries, BUT, they the Arabs, would NEVER prevail in attempting to destroy them, and the worst is still yet to come, gradually building up that what His Word, states must happen.
However, let us note carefully, from the records of the 1948 period, when the Arab countries “invited’ those Arabs in Israel to leave, so Israel could be destroyed.
Peters goes on to confirm:
“In response, the Jewish Haifa Workers’ council issued an appeal to the Arab residents of Haifa. ‘For years we have lived together in our city, Haifa…Do not fear: Do not destroy your homes with your own hands…do not bring upon yourself tragedy by unnecessary evacustion and self-imposed burdens…But in this city, yours and ours, Haifa, the gates are open for work, for life, and for peace for you and your families.’
A footnote says. See British report in Appenndiz II. Such as President Truman’s International Development Advisory Board Report, March 7, 1951: “Arab leaders summmoned Arab of Palestine to mass evacuation…as the documented facts reveal…”
“According to a research report by the Arab-sponsored Institute for Palestine Studies in Beirut, however, “the majority” of the Arab refugees in 1948 WERE NOT expelled, and “68%” left without an Israeli soldier.”
“After the Arabs’ defeat in the 1948 war, their position became confused: some Arab leaders demanded the “return” of the “expelled” refugees to their former homes despite the evidence that Arab leaders had called upon Arabs to flee. ” (Ibid., p.13).
But, listen to what then happened, as the Arab leaders now find themselves in a fix, having failed to ‘exterminate’ the Jews only 24 hours after declared statehood, AND, having told the Arabs in Israel to ‘flee’ so Israel could be destroyed; they now attempt using the ‘classic’ Arab use of ‘Turnspeak’ inverting cynically, the facts, to make Israel appear as the “occupier’ of their land.
“At the same time, Emile Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Command, called for the prevention of the refugees from “return.” He stated in the Beirut Telegraph on August 6, 1948: “It is inconveivable that the refugees should be sent back to their homes while they are occupied by Jews…It would serve as a first step toward Arab recognition of the state of Israel and Partition.”
Of course, the Arabs countries could never allow that fact, that Israel WAS now a duly, lawfully constituted state, by the United Nations.
Here is where the ‘Myth’ takes root, in 1948, cleaverly concieved by Musa Alami.
“Arab activist Musa Alami despaired: as he saw the problem, “how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them DO NOT know the meaning of the word?…The people are in great need of a “Myth” to fill their consciousness and imagination…” According to Alami, an indictrination of the ‘Myth” of nationality would create (a false) “identity” and “self-respect.” (Ibid., p.13).
This ‘Myth’ a devastating LIE, took root from then, and has been relentlessly propagated and perpetuated by the PLO, other Arab nations, constantly inverting the facts, that Israel was the ‘agressor’ a blatant untruth and lie; as she NEVER started any of the wars, and secondly, because the Arabs utterly failed in DESTROYING the Jewish state, from its inception, they then resort to the ‘Turnspeak’ of accusing the Jews of ‘Occupying’ their land.
“However, Alami’s proposal was confounded by the realities between 1948 and 1967, the Arab state of Jordan claimed annexation of the territory west of the Jordan River, the ‘West Bank’ area of Palestine- the same area that would later be forwarded by Arab “moderates” as a “mini-state” for the “Palestinians.” Thus, that area was, between 1948 and 1967 called “Arab land,” the peoples were Arabs, and yet the “Myth” that Musa Alami prescribed – the cause of “Palestine” for the “Palestinians” – remained unheralded, unadopted by the Arabs during two decades. According to Lord Caradon, “Every Arab assumed the Palestinians [refugges] would go back to Jordan,”
(Ibid., p.14).
But, it must never be forgotten, that for all intent and purposes, the state of Jordan IS the de jure Palestinian state, as this area, 75% of the mandated land for Israel, approved by the then League of Nations, WAS unilaterally taken away from the Jews, by the British, to create the state of Transjordan, now Jordan.
“Ever since the 1967 Israeli victory, however, when the Arabs determined that they couldn’t obliterate Israel militarily, they have skillfully waged economic, diplomatic, and propaganda war against Israel. This, Arabs reasoned, would take longer than military victory, bt ultimately the result would be the same. Critical to the new tactic, however, was a device designed to whittle away at the sympathies of Israel’s allies: what the Arabs envisioned was something that could achieve Israel’s shrinking to indefensible size at the same time that she became insolvent.”
“This program was reviewed in 1971 by Mohamed Heikal, then still an important spokesman of Egypt’s leadership in his post as editor of the influential semi-official newspaper Al Ahram, Heikal called for a change of Arab rhetoric- no more threats of “throwing Israel into the sea” – and a new political strategy aimed at reducing Israel to INDEFENSIBLE BOARDERS and pushing her into diplomatic and economic isolation. He predicted that “total withdrawal” would “pass sentence on the entire state of Israel.”
“A prominent Arab Palestinian strategist, Al-Haytham Al-Ayubi, analyzed the efficacy of Arab propaganda tactics in 1974, when he wrote:
“The image of Israel as a weak nation surrounded by enemies seeking its annihilation evaporated [after 1967], to be replaced by the image of an aggressive nation challenging world opinion.”
“As Rosemary Sayigh in the Journal of Palestine Studies, wrote, “A strongly defined Palestinian identity did not emerge until 1968, two decades after expulsion.” It has taken twenty years to establish the ‘Myth” prescribed by Musa Alami.” (Ibid., p. 15).
“As Al-Ayubi noted, ‘The basic Arab premise concerning ‘the elimination of the results of aggression’ remains accepted by the world.” Thus the ‘noose’ will be placed around the neck of the Zionist entity.”
“But the Arabs’ creation of the ‘Myth’ of nationality did not create the advantageous situation for the Palestinian Arabs that Musa Alami had hoped for. Instead, the conditions he complained of bitterly were perpetuated: the Arabs “shut the door” of citizenship “in their faces and IMPRISON them in camps.”
“Khaled Al-Azm, who was Syria’s Prime Minister after the 1948 war, deplored the Arab tactics and the subsequent exploitation of the refugees, in his 1972 memoirs:
Hear this honest statement by Khaled Al Azm:
“Since 1948 it was WE who demanded the return of the refugees…while it is WE who made them leave [Israel]…WE brought disaster upon…Arab refugees, by INVITING them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave…We have rendered them dispossessed…We have accustomed them to begging…WE have participated in lowering their moral and social level…Then WE exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon…men, women and children – all this in the service of political purposes.”
(Ibid., p.16).
The above, is just the introduction of some facts, all documented, for any honest person to investigate, in order to begin to grasp the ‘Truth’ and facts, concerning the reality of this conflict, than God that a few of the Arab leaders, like the one just quoted, had the conscience of character, to speak the truth, in the face of Arab ‘Turnspeak’ inverting, twisting, and uttely maligning the facts, for evil propaganda political purposes.
Bush Tea // January 21, 2009 at 9:50 PM
@MME
How about translating some of your concepts into English for us lesser grubs? LOL
“…an immanentist hypostasis of the eschaton…”????
Cuddear man!!!
In any case, I fail to see the danger that you seem to do, in anticipating the end of this miserable phase.
…The worst possible effect seems to be that those guilty will focus on matters other than the trimmings of this mixed up world…. hopefully dwelling instead on matters of character- like love, respect, helping others, etc.
In any case, what do you interpret the line in the Lord’s prayer that prays – “thy kingdom come (soon?)”- to mean?
Bush Tea // January 21, 2009 at 10:02 PM
…and MME what is Eidos? are you talking about the think tank or do you mean the EIDOS created in 1982? ….
ROTFL
Dissident // January 21, 2009 at 10:41 PM
είδος = article, item, kind, nature, sort, species
Not Saved // January 21, 2009 at 11:02 PM
Technician,
Here is what Noam Chomsky (Jewish MIT professor ) has to say about the “Joan Peters” book
http://www.chomsky.info/books/power01.htm
hope you dont hurt yourself when you fall on the floor in laughter
“historian peters”, LOL !!!!
Not Saved // January 21, 2009 at 11:06 PM
Reviewing the book for the January 16, 1986 issue of The New York Review of Books, Yehoshua Porath wrote that Peters made ‘highly tendentious use — or neglect — of the available source material’. But more crucial, he wrote, “is her misunderstanding of basic historical processes and her failure to appreciate the central importance of natural population increase as compared to migratory movements.” Porath concluded:
“Readers of her book should be warned not to accept its factual claims without checking their sources. Judging by the interest that the book aroused and the prestige of some who have endorsed it, I thought it would present some new interpretation of the historical facts. I found none. Everyone familiar with the writing of the extreme nationalists of Zeev Jabotinsky’s Revisionist party (the forerunner of the Herut party) would immediately recognize the tired and discredited arguments in Mrs. Peters’s book. I had mistakenly thought them long forgotten. It is a pity that they have been given new life.”
Not Saved // January 21, 2009 at 11:07 PM
From the wiki
Yehoshua Porath (Hebrew: יהושע פורת) is an Israeli politician and an orientalist. In the 1992 election, he was the 13th name on the list of Meretz candidates to Knesset, but later he changed his political views and became a supporter of the right. He opposed the Oslo accords between PLO and Israel. In the Israeli legislative election, 1996 he participated in the campaign of the Likud party and supported its leader Benjamin Netanyahu as a candidate for Prime Minister. Porath is currently Professor Emeritus of Middle East History (formerly Associate Professor of Islamic and Middle Eastern Studies), then Lecturer in the History of the Muslim Countries at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He specialized in the history of the Palestinian nationalist movement and related issues.
Not Saved // January 21, 2009 at 11:09 PM
the book is a long discredited hoax and yet you Technician are the one called an ignorant fool who falls for “propaganda”
ROFLMAO
Micro Mock Engineer // January 22, 2009 at 12:09 AM
LOL… Bush Tea, I was just quoting Voegelin who used the phrase to warn against being so eager to get to the ‘end’ that we abdicate our responsibilities in the present. If you don’t think this is dangerous, read GP again:
“Now I want you to understand that I am not taking any sides in the conflict, because I know what the outcome will be, and things will play out according to the scropt in Holy Writ.”
In other words… it has already been written, so there is no use in me speaking out against or trying to stop the atrocities.
There is no danger in anticipating the ‘end’, or even identifying the type of behaviour that will hasten it… the danger lies in making false predictions about when it will actually happen and the short-term planning and escapist attitude that this often encourages.
Eidos is a Greek word. In the context used by the classical philosophers, there is no exact English translation for it… english philosophy texts either use the original greek ‘eidos’ or ‘Form’ with a capital ‘F’. Plato first used it in his Theory of Forms to describe the spiritual property (existing outside space and time) that determines the physical appearance of everything in Phase 1 :-)
Georgie Porgie // January 22, 2009 at 12:21 AM
Bush Tea
I know that prophecy is NOT predestination. I wont even attempt to talk about predestination and election on this forum. I am glad that you know exactly what is about to occur.
These things will happen because they were prophesied, because the one who made the prophesy knew that we would collectively abuse and reject God’s set spiritual laws, as you state I agree with you that the fact that some events were prophesied only reflects that a superior level of intelligence, not subject to time and space like us mortals, has taken the trouble to FOREWARN us of the likely consequences of our choices.
It is noteworthy that many of these prophesies are written in the past tense. Certainly God knew that we would not be intelligent and wise enough to take heed, and so the results (and the events prophesied) will not be different. If we were intelligent and wise enough to take heed, then the results (and the events prophesied) could well be completely different.
I did not reject the concept of loving those that hate you, nor have I reserved the right to retaliation. I have merely stated that one cannot determine how another should respond to doing another wrong. I believe that instead we ought not to do wrong to others.
You asked MME
In any case, what do you interpret the line in the Lord’s prayer that prays – “thy kingdom come (soon?)”- to mean?
Does this not refer to the rule of God on earth, as it is in heaven? Will this not occur in the millennium?
Technician // January 22, 2009 at 12:59 AM
@ Not Saved……
Maybe Carlos has not realized it as yet but I have finished the back and forth with him.
If he is the sole authority on this matter and any evidence anyone brings to dispute his claims is regarded as lies, untruths etc, how can you make any point?
The arrogant and dismissive style of his comments take away any real debate of the issue. It is his way or the highway, so I took the highway.
patinho // January 22, 2009 at 3:35 AM
Carlos,
You need to read material other that biased Zionist propaganda. In 1948, man gave Jews Israel not God! There wasn’t any Israel before 1948 so Transjordan which predated Israel couldn’t have been mandated to Israel. The British governed Palestine as the land to the west of the river Jordan and to the east of that (yes that vast stretch of land) as Transjordan. You’ve presented so many misleading points and twisted historical facts to suit your agenda.
What has been happening in this modern “state of Israel” has nothing to do with God but politics. Jews have a historical not a legal claim to land in the Middle East. What rightful claims do you have to property someone in your ancestry owned 2500 years ago? If I found my lineage is from the Kingdom of Ashanti centuries before, do I have right to claim? Come on…you are talking about 2500 years ago. Why not return the entire world to how it was 2500 years ago and put all Celts in Ireland and all Arawaks in South America and the Caribbean. Better yet why doesn’t Carlos willing give up his house and land to the returning descendents of the Arawaks?
Modern Jews aren’t a pure ethnic group either having interbred or intermarried for millennia. Israel considers a person whose grandparent is a Jew or a person who has converted to Judaism as a Jew and has a right to live in Israel. Does that sound fair to you? Should thousands of people in Arabia have to flee so Daniel Weinberger born in Warsaw, Poland, whose grandfather happened to cohabit with a Jewish woman, can live legally on land they once called home? Doesn’t sound fair to me unless meaning compensation is given.
The fact is 1/10 of Palestinians were Jews in 1920 by 1940 it was 3/10. The problem was so grave the British had to restrict Jews immigrating to Palestine at which point the Jews replied with terrorism and illegal migration. Approximately 10 million people now live in “Palestine” and roughly 6/10 of them are Jews.
Western society’s separation of church and state started a couple centuries ago so please don’t try that one. Why would the Jews beg the Palestinians to stay? Jews bent on establishing a permanent home for all Jews asking Palestinians to stay in their Jewish Homeland? What a joke! You speak so much for your Christian faith, the “faith of the west” yet Christians have been persecuting Jews for centuries and chasing them from Europe. Do you remember the Inquisition? I don’t think you do.
***********************************
In 1948 there were more than 850,000 Jews living in the Arab world.
NOT, European Jews as you incorrectly stated.
Before Israel became a state in 1948; there were between 125,00 and 135,00 who lived in Iraq; 75,000 lived in Egypt; 30,000 lived in Syria, 55,000 lived in Yemen; 8,000 lived in Aden; 265,000 lived in Morocco’ up to 140,000 lived in Algeria; over 105,000 lived in Tunisia; 5,000 lived in Lebanon; and some 38,000 lived in Libya.
**********************************
850,000 Jews in Arab land in 1948 after the formation of Israel. Do you remember that Hitler killed 6 million European Jews? What about the millions that fled during and after his rule? Surely 850,000 by no means can be compared with millions who survived and the millions before who fled and escaped persecution. These Jews in 1948 fled or left Arab lands because of the tension and effect of the Arab-Isreali war just and hundreds of thousands of Arab did in Palestine. Common sense dictates that. Where they once lived is now Israel and in the hands of Israelis. Half of Jordan’s population is made up of Palestinians many refugees.
Your Christian Zionist views cannot justify what has happened to and continues to happen to Palestinians. Jews are not pure, perfect, God-blessed people…some are evil, greed, jealous and so on just like every other group of people. Your Christianity cannot justify the bombings, assassinations, bullying, terrorizing and war that Israel and Jews have perpetrated. Israel brought war on Lebanon and occupied Southern Lebanon, occupied parts of Syria, Israel destroyed Iraq’s nuclear reactor although Israel has undisclosed nuclear weapons and Iraq had none, Israel refuses to listen to the UN and Israel’s secret agency has assassinated so many opponents of the state and kidnapped Palestinian politicians. What is Godly about these acts? Do you realize that Israel is not for pious Jews? Israel is for people of Jewish ancestry…you don’t have to be Godly. In fact, many of the proponents of Zionism were not practicing Jews but atheists…yes, non-believers. In fact many, had intentions of setting up a Jewish state which stretched beyond the boundaries of Palestine. Check it.
My goal isn’t really to argue religion because religion is not the focal point of this conflict. This is politics. Britain made false promises to several groups of people to defeat the Ottomans in WW1 and out of sympathy for European Jews (who suffered more persecution, atrocities and ethnic cleansing in your European Christian countries than anywhere in the world) agreed to set up a state for them to the detriment of the resident Arab population. The Arabs ,from the inception, refused this arrangement (having been promised an Arab independent state in the middle east), didn’t agreed to the formation of this Jewish state, didn’t agree with the mass global migration of Jews to Palestine and the changing face of their society and have fought back ever since the Balfour Declaration in 1917. An Israeli State has been created, a Palestinian state has not been created, Israeli civilians and soldiers live in and control parts of Palestine which weren’t allotted to the Jewish state. The West continues to disproportionately support Israel in all spheres of the conflict and do little politically to punish Israel for its crimes and disrespect for international law. So my dear Carlos, don’t try to push this Promised Land story and the Jews are so loving they asked Palestinians to stay on the land they acquired from them nonsense. The fact is the world isn’t only Christian, Jews and Muslims and religious sentiments have no validity here and these world leaders who shaped this conflict and continue to undermine it have nothing Godly on their minds. Humanity must prevail and it is a pity as a self-claimed Christian, you are not thinking like a humanitarian, just someone blinded by faith. I wonder if you were alive in the 16th century, what your views would be on the slavery and racism towards blacks considered cursed by Ham. Just a thought.
Micro Mock Engineer // January 22, 2009 at 7:29 AM
“thy kingdom come (soon?)”… LOL BT, I’m sure the fact that we’ve been saying that prayer for the past 2000 years, is not lost on you. What “soon” what?!? :-)
Micro Mock Engineer // January 22, 2009 at 7:41 AM
… you see, unlike the other petitions (eg. “give us this day our…”, “forgive us our…” etc.) that particular line you reference acknowledges submission to His will… you should be thinking “ready when you are” when you say it.
ru4real // January 22, 2009 at 9:38 AM
he Arab Palestinians WERE then DELIBERATELY forced into refugee camps and NOT permitted by their Arab brothers to intergrate into the society of their unwilling hosts, even though they WERE FELLOW Muslims.
Can you honestly fathom this? These Arab countries, with VAST land areas, who could easily have assimilated these brothers of theirs, WHO they ordered to leave Israel, SO they could destroy them, NOW, keep them in deliberate ‘refugge’ camps, under duress, so as to make Israel look like the agressor, and ‘occupier’. A massive LIE.
These Aran nations, DID not even try to help them, their fellow Muslim brothers! Instead, they prevailed upon the United Nations to supply the refugees’ needs. Kept in these camps by their ‘own’ people, NOT the Jews, for more than 50 years, being used as political pawns so Muslims negotiators can continue to ‘trump’ up charges of “Israeli aggression.” Turnspeak, over and over again, repeated, until this mother of all ‘lies’ is accepted as the truth.
————————————–
Well said and accurate
They learned this ‘great lie ‘theory from Joseph Gobbels
Hitlers hench man a great lie repeated enough times gets gullible people to believe in it.
Hence germans were convinced that jews were the source of all their econoic woes. Now ther arab people -need the Palestinians – at the same time they dont want to live with them.
they dont act to support them against Israel why?
because the Arab states fear Islamic militancy as much as anyone else and they dont want Hamas creating havoc that THEY might have to deal with
Carlos // January 22, 2009 at 1:24 PM
@Patinho; as a ’secularist’, you do not want to factor in any of Almighty God’s
declarations and pronouncements on the unfolding of human history, which is unfortunate, because all of the Empires described by the Prophet Daniel (chap 2) 606 BC, Gold – Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon (unquestioned obedience to one absolute sovereign) ruled and dominated for a while, and came tumbling down; 536 BC, Silver – The dual Empire of the Medes and Persians (The 2 arms), lasted for a while, likewise, ended in ruination; 336 BC, Copper -The Greek Empire; likewise gave way to. 200 BC, Iron Legs United- Roman Republic and Empire, until its ultimate demise, 476 and 1463 A.D. all prophesied in God’s Word, the Bible, and presently, the Iron Legs Cracking – European states; and finally, Iron and Clay feet – End-time Lawlessness all rapidly increasing throughtout the world, exactly as God said it would be, and the soon to be 10 Toes -the Revived Rome Confederacy which will come out of the present European Union; watch and see!
What is the point here?
Israel and the Middle East conflict, as began in 1948, with the birth of Israel, and the vehement hatred against them by the Arab countries, are ALL part of the predicted and prophesied sequence of events, that must prevail and unfold, exactly as God said it would; and no matter how much you want to disregard this reality, only seeking to view it through the eyes and understanding of ’secular humanism’ it will never add up to any sense with a ‘worldview’ perspective of this mindset.
For your and others information, Joan Peters started her monumental research into this ‘Arab-Jewish’ conflict biased toward the Jews, believing what the popular world opinion said; only to find out, by painstaking research, that the documented factuality painted an entirely different picture.
So, no matter what anyone says, in seeking to repudiate her book as not reliable, let them specifically bring evidence to the contrary, rather than just using rhetorical slander!
But, Patinho, even though you don’t want to understand, or can’t understand the Biblical aspect of this crisis; let us at least consider the reasonable, logical side, which is conspicuously absent from the facts regarding how the so-called Palestinian ‘refugees’ were used and treated by their Arab Muslim brothers, and obviously so, for their selfish political ends.
Let us consider some of the facts, as documented.
As Peters state:
“According to various estimates, the accurate number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 was somewhere between 430,000 and 650,000. An oft-cited study that used official records of the League of Nations’ mandate and Arab census figures determined that they were 539,00o Arab refugees in May 1948.”
“There was heated controversy over the exact number of Arab refugees who left Israel. In October 1948, there were already three “official” sets of figures. The United Nations had two, the higher of which estimated the number would “shortly increase to 500,000″, the Arab League’s official figures reported a total already greater by almost 150,000 than the higher UN figures. The swollen Arab League figures could never be verified because the Arabs refused to allow officials censuses to be completed among refugees. Observers have deduced that the Arab purpose was to seek greater world attention through an exaggerated population figure and thereby induce the UN to put heavier pressures upon Israel, to force “repatriation.” (Ibid., pp. 16-17).
Resettlement Opportunities: Dignity Denied:
Let us be honest, how is it, and why do the Arab states of nearly 200 million people, with MILLIONS of miles of territory, remain so resolutely steadfast in its rabid rejection of the minuscule Jewish state, that the Arabs have been willing to SACRIFICE the human dignity and plight of their very own people, the Palestinians? WHY? WHY? WHY?
Peters gives a sound and reasonable answer:
“The answers lies in what is known – and what is not known – about the region. Having worked to obliterate from the practical dialogue, the history of the Jews as “Palestinian people” and having denied Jewish historical ties to their Holy Land (as in, for example Article 20 of the PLO Covenant), the Arabs have consistently claimed that in the proposed “secular democratic state of Palestine” most of the Jews who are now in their homeland of Israel would have to DEPART, presumably back to their countries of origin – including the little-known major component of Arb-born Jews.”
“Over the last thirty-odd years, numerous projects have been proposed, international funds approved, studies undertaken, all indicating the benefits that could be derived by the Arab refugees from their absorption INTO the brethren cultures of the Arab host countries. Various international bodies and independent Arab voices over the years have clearly challenged as IMMORAL the position of the Arabs in promoting the continued languishing of the Arbs ‘emigres who came within their borders; also deplored on occasion is the Arab states’ departure from the free world’s unvarying precedent: of granting to refugees around the world the dignity of resettlement within a compatible environment where they can become productive citizens. From the beginning, the Arab host governments were offered unprecedentedly broad opportunities based on the refugees’ rehabilitation, which could have help develop their countries’ vast potential under the proposed aid programs.” (Ibid., p.19).
All of these efforts by international bodies, funds made available, etc, etc., Yet, the Arabs rebuffed every effort to secure realistic well-being for their kinsmen. At a refugee conference in Horms, Syria, the Arabs declared:
“Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to ANNIHILATE Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason.”
“In 1958, former director of UNRWA Ralph Galloway declared angrily while in Jordan.”
“The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it an OPEN SORE, as an affront to the United Nations, as as a WEAPON against Israel. Arab leaders DO NOT GIVE A DAMN whether Arab refugees live or die.” (Ibid., p.23).
Again here from another honest Arab leader.
“And King Hussein, the sole Arab leader who, for reasons that later became clearer, directed intergration of the Arabs, in 1960 stated.”
“Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner…They have USED the Palestine people for SELFISH political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, even CRIMINAL.”
Over and over again, the Arab leaders have USED the Palestinian people as an excuse to bring pressure on Israel, for such action in allowing them into their own brothers’ countries, would have resulted in the Arab world’s loss of a weapon against Israel, and would have falsely implied acceptance of the Jewish state, which they could not allow to happen, as their stubborn intent, from the very beginning, WAS and still IS, to DESTROY and ANNIHILATE the Jews from the face of the earth.
Carlos // January 22, 2009 at 4:52 PM
@ Technician; as you have opted to go the ‘By-way’ not the ‘Highway’ you mentioned in an earlier thread, that the debate between ‘Creation’ and ‘Evolution’ both have valid arguments! Really!
Anytime you are ready to discuss and debate this issue, just let me know; we’ll then see again, who will ‘run-away’ from the facts and evidence!
Think you are up to it?
Dissident // January 22, 2009 at 8:06 PM
While doing some light reading, I came across this paragraph in a work of fiction, but it bears striking relevance to the situation in the Middle East today.
“You couldn’t make a political or diplomatic move in the Middle East without tripping over five thousand years of history and bad blood. That was something the Americans, for instance, never understood. Events that took place three millennia [sic] ago were brought up at international conferences as though they had taken place the week before last. Given all that, was there hope for any of them?” [Nelson DeMille, 'By the Rivers of Babylon', 1978].
Makes you wonder…
patinho // January 22, 2009 at 8:14 PM
Carlos,
You have proved nothing in your response. I don’t think Arabs Muslims want Jews off the face of the Earth maybe out of the Middle East. If your belief was the case, why were there (as you stated) 850, 000 plus Jews in the Arab countries up to 1948? That belief doesn’t hold up. Why weren’t they driven out of the Ottoman Empire, an Islamic society? Why were they allowed to thrive to the tune of almost a million people in the empire? Doesn’t add up.
That aside, you present nothing that concretely justifies the present or past actions of Israel. Note, I have not and do not advocate that the Palestinians’ or the other Arabs’ hands are clean unlike you who believes everything thing Israel does is justified by the promise to Abraham. Many atheists, communists, socialists and secular men orchestrated the formation of Israel for their political, economic and social and the western powers will do what is necessary to maintain this state.
Thankfully, there is a ceasefire at the moment but this conflict will go on for a while longer. Israel wants all of Palestine for itself, Palestinians want their mandated part or all of Palestine (depending on who you ask). The West doesn’t want a strong Palestine as that almost signifies the end of Israel. Hopefully, world leaders can come up with a lasting solution soon.
Not Saved // January 22, 2009 at 8:59 PM
Technician,
I dont think Carlos has realised yet.
Not Saved // January 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM
and he still quotes from a discredited fraud
LOL
Apparently, Yehoshua Porath (Professor Emeritus of Middle East History at Hebrew University ) is just full of “rhetorical slander” according to Carlos the theologian
Technician // January 22, 2009 at 11:24 PM
No comment…:-)
Hopi // January 23, 2009 at 1:38 AM
@Tech…….Don’t indulge that CARLOSS in any debate about creation and evolution because some of us have been created by a higher consciousness while other have evolved from random delusions of grandeur laced with ignorance. Look on this thread and Yardbroom’s other Palestinian thread he is staunchly defending an INDEFENSIBLE position that a man without eyes can see. Check the way in which he dresses that LIE. He tries on a shirt & tie, when that doesn’t fit he goes and bring another one along with a raggy, worn out pants and some ole,tattered shoes and when someone pierces a hole thru them he goes and bring another raggy outfit and that too gets pierced again. That’s what you have to do with a LIE, you dress it up and dress it down and dress it up until it becomes so worn out by all the dressing that it eventually falls FLAT on its face. ‘In the abundance of water the fool is thirsty.’ CARLOSS RU4REAL?
Carlos // January 23, 2009 at 3:19 AM
Patinho,
I never said that everything the Jews have done is justified by the Abrahamic covenant; not at all; BUT, what you don’t understand in this entire historic picture, is the dimension of Almighty God’s purpose and plan, which began with Abraham, the forefather of the Jewish people, and no matter how rebellious and apostate they were, and still are, as a ‘nation’ His sovereign will and design will be accomplished, in Jerusalem upon the second advent of The Lord Jesus Christ, no matter who scoffs at it.
Historically, no ethic group of people have been more persecuted, tormented, brutally treated and dispersed throughout the world, than the Jewish people, and no doubt so, because of their disobedience to God.
Yet, from time immemorial, they have continued as a distinct people, unlike no other ancient civilization; and this can only be accounted for by God’s sovereign, Omnipotent hand in their preservation, this is precisely why, all attempts to obliterate them has failed, no matter what, or who has tried!
What most people don’t understand, is, that the real Palestinian State, IS the modern-day Royal Kingdom of Jordan, and is clearly an independent Palestinian-Arab state.
“Geographicaly, it spans most of the land once called Palestine. Its population is largely made yp of so-called “Palestinians.” Abdullah and other Arab leaders admitted as much in 1948 prior to launching their war of aggression agaist the new state of Israel…’Palestine and Transjordan are ONE, for Palestine is the coast-line and Transjordan the hinterland of the same country,’ said Abdullah. His Prime Minister, Hazza al-Majali, went even further: “We are the army of Palestine…the overwhelming majority of Palestine Arabs are living in Jordan.”
(Everlasting Hatred, The Roots of Jihad, pp.198-200).
@HOPI, sounds like you are talking from actual, real, living experience; as the true ‘living water’ of LIFE, you have failed to recognize and accept, and therefore, like many, are ‘thirsty fools.’
So it be!
Fool // January 23, 2009 at 10:19 AM
“Jews are too influential a force”
“Jews have a historical not a legal claim to land in the Middle East”
Is that true?
“Israel wants all of Palestine for itself”
Is that true?
“read material other that biased Zionist propaganda”
“I’ve always been firmly on the Palestinian side for as long as i can recall. I’m not anti-Semitic but”
“So what if Gaza is destroyed and 1000s die?..they are only Palestinians…”
“precisely BECAUSE the Jews purport to be God’s chosen people.”
*********
These are a few selections of your words, not mine.
Now here is a small scriptural quote for you:
“Thou shall not bear false witness”.
Some people above say that Israel and Jews are wicked, murderous and corrupt. That is not true.
I hear above zionist this, zionist that, and for me it’s racist. You can say above all you wish to about what Israel should do, and what it should not do. In the end the final staus of the State of Palestine will depend on the treaties that have been signed, i.e. the final borders and the peace and security of the parties concerned. You can’t kill us any more because Israel is an accepted legal entity. We look forward to the peace table.
People above claim that the war is to deflect criticism away from corruption charges, none of which are on parties standing for election. I think that the war will only hasten the installation of the other party out of power, one which is more hard line.
This will make you get on even worse: In Israel there are laws that speak to corruption and the diversion of monies like campaign donations and the public contracts. In Barbados these laws do not exist yet, but the DLP promised that there would be in 100 days.
The ruling party has promised to bring these laws within 100 days of its being in power. In Barbados.
You may not like me, or what I’m saying, but that’s the truth. You can hype up the deligitimisation of Israel because it’s me saying it, but in the end you will still have to address the promises that you bore false witness to in your manifesto.
Peace.
Dictionary // January 24, 2009 at 6:25 AM
Gentlemen:
A little reminder of fairly recent history:
_______________
“In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”
– Pastor Martin Niemöller of the Confessing Evangelical Churches, Germany [after he had been rescued by liberating armies from a concentration camp in 1945]
________________
Let’s put a little context here, starting with the significance and relevance of the year 1919.
The year in which the Versailles and related peace conferences and side agreements created a new world order, that of the nation-state; on the principle of self-determination of peoples, and out of the ashes of the collapsed Russian, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires: from Finland, Poland and Czechoslovakia to Syria, Lebanon, what is now Israel, [Trans-] Jordan[ian Palestine], [Cis- Jordanian] Palestine, and Arabia.
A process and principle that in the end reached even us in the Caribbean, and on which principles we have felt safe enough under the protection of the international system and leading states in it, to form microstates in the Caribbean. Microstates that would otherwise be easily gobbled up by any two-bit ambitious dictator. (And I can think of a few waiting in the wings.)
A process during which this is the key statement of the Zionist submission ot the Conference [over the signature of inter alia the first President of Israel Chaim Weizmann] stated as follows:
************
“The mandate shall be subject also to the following special conditions:
Palestine [then a geographical term, not a state; there was no province of Palestine or Palestinian people in the Ottoman Empire -- they viewed themselves as "Syrians"] shall be placed under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment there of the Jewish National Home and ultimately render possible the creation of an autonomous Commonwealth, it being clearly understood that nothing shall
be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other
country . . . . Lastly the land itself needs redemption Much of it is left desolate Its present condition is a standing reproach. Two things are necessary for that redemption – a stable and enlightened government, and an addition to the present population which shall be energetic, intelligent, devoted to the country, and
backed by the large financial resources that are indispensable for development Such a population the Jews alone can supply.”
*************
If it had not been for the Zionist intervention from the 1870’s on, there would be nothing to quarrel over in the geographical region Palestine; then and for decades thereafter a wasteland of desert, semi-desert, denuded hills and malarial hinterlands. With labour [starting without bulldozers], treasure, sickness and blood, the Jews rebuilt their ancestral homeland, which some of them had never left and to which many others repeatedly returned as soon as the door opened, over the ages. They asked only to share the land with those already there, on terms of equity — not that shocking state of apartheid under Sharia law known as dhimmitude under the so-called pact of Umar. They were met in part with reason, as the Weizmann-Feisal [later king of Iraq and brother to the future king of Trans-Jordan] agreement on mutually supportive development of the region by Jews and Arabs as brother nations testifies. But others set out on envy, murder and driving out, so that every seemingly reasonable settlement on the principle of sharing a common homeland; from 1919 to 1947 to post 1967 to 1993 – 2000 has been sabotaged. And consistently that came from the ARAB side — “he hit back first” being its own refutation, as currently over Gaza. [Quite a contrast with say the relatively peaceful history of US-Mexican relations since the 1840's where Mexico lost vast territories to the US in a series of wars linked to issues over the Texians. (And that is the original spelling.)]
Why?
ANS: We must understand IslamISM — not the religion but the ideology that fastens and feeds upon it.
The one that cites selected proof-texting Hadiths and Ayas of the Quran [cf Q 9:5 and 29 etc] on “slaying” or conquering “pagans,” and “people of the book” [i.e. Jews, Christians and later others of established religions], including the one that the end of the age will not come until the all-conquering “black flag” armies march, from the direction of “Khorasan” [i.e. Iran and eastwards thereof, e.g. many islamISTS today view the Taliban as the foundation of that army].
Armies headed by al Mahdi, and aided by Prophet Isa. Armies that will conquer Iraq, Arabia and Jerusalem. After which there will be a slaugther of the Jews, to the point where rocks and trees will say there is a Jew hiding behind me come and kill him. Then, the whole world will be subjugated under the rule of Allah, his prophet, his law, his armies, headed by Al Mahdi and his Lieutenant. All crosses will be broken. All Christians will be convinced to abandon their faith. All Jews — alleged descendants of apes and pigs [per a story on Allah's judgement on Jews who defied his ban on Pork etc] and the root of most or at least much of the evils in the world — will be eliminated.
Of course, these fairly easily researched contextual and balancing facts are not in our headlines, news stories and feature articles. No prizes for guessing why — they do not fit the narratives those who would lead us as they will have presented for our gullible consumption. (For such, we are “sheeple,” not people who have a right to a true and fair, balanced and objective view of the state of international affairs.)
Hamas, sirs, FYI, is the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood founded in Egypt, and which signs up to this religiously motivated — I do not say “grounded” or “well-warranted” — global conquest ideology.
One that has claims against Jamaica and the wider Caribbean that bear the same structure as the claims it has against Israel, much of India and Spain: lands formerly under IslamIST domination must be restored “by any means necessary.”
If you doubt me, just read between the lines of Dr Sultana Afroz’s teachings that the Spanish settlement in our region was Moorish-Islamic and that the British conquered as crusaders, then importing enslaved Muslims; who led jihads of liberation against their slave masters. Masters who allegedly forcibly converted unwilling slaves to Christians. (These claims are quite tendentious, but that is a notorious stock in trade of such conquering ideologies. For instance George Liele — former slave in Georgia and C18-19 founder of the Baptist church that is the bedrock foundation of Jamaica’s nationhood, was by his church confession a convinced [Ana-]baptist.)
So, the lands of the Caribbean, too, are subject to Jihads, if we will not heed the ongoing Dawah — call to surrender [and preparatory to war if necessary], strictly — that invites us to “revert” to Islam. No great surprise, as the common Islamist saying is: Saturday first, then Sunday.
So, which is it:
[A] the 1919 principle of self determination by free peoples and negotiated settlements of disputes, or
[B] ideologies of global conquest under whatever label — race, liberation of oppressed workers and peasants, religion.
Let us just note that such ideologies will often exploit our legitimate concerns and grievances, the better to divide and weaken the opposition, in the interests of conquest. Or, have we so soon forgotten the lessons of the past 70 – 80 years?
Lessons that cost over 100 millions their lives?
Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it . . .
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // January 24, 2009 at 8:15 AM
PS: Let’s get a little more reference context.
For that, a good place to begin is with the recent comments in author of The Legacy of Jihad, Andrew Bostom’s July 17, 2006 article that observes:
+++++++++++++++
http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/07/apocalyptic_muslim_jewhatred.html
There are short—term reasons behind the attacks on Israel by Hezbollah and Hamas. But underlying all the geo—strategy is a solid foundation of fanatical Jew—hatred, dating back to the founding of Islam. There is literally nothing Israel or Jews can do to appease those who seek to annihilate them . . . .
Georges Vajda —in a seminal 1937 essay [1: Juifs et Musulmans selon le hadit [Jews and Muslims according to the hadith]. Journal Asiatique, 1937, Vol. 229, pp. 57—129. English translation by Susan Emanuel.] (long before the establishment of the State of Israel)—provides an overall assessment of the portrayal of the Jews in the hadith collections (the putative words and deeds of the Muslim prophet Muhammad, as recorded by pious transmitters), complemented by Koranic verses, and observations from the earliest Muslim biographies [or 'sira'] of Muhammad.
Vajda’s research demonstrates how Muslim eschatology emphasizes the Jews’ supreme hostility to Islam. Jews are described as adherents of the Dajjāl—the Muslim equivalent of the Anti—Christ—and as per another tradition, the Dajjāl is in fact Jewish. At his appearance, other traditions state that the Dajjāl will be accompanied by 70,000 Jews from Isfahan wrapped in their robes, and armed with polished sabers, their heads covered with a sort of veil. When the Dajjāl is defeated, his Jewish companions will be slaughtered— everything will deliver them up except for the so—called gharkad tree. Thus, according to a canonical hadith . . . .
>> ‘The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad [box-thorn, related to both the Goji berry tree and the tea tree] would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.’ (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985). [link: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/041.smt.html#041.6985 ]>>
Both jihadist terror organizations believe they can now take advantage of their political gains in Lebanon (Hizbollah), and the Palestinian controlled areas of Gaza and the West Bank (Hamas), and succeed in their goal to destroy Israel—motivated by a primordial hatred of Jews, sanctioned in Muslim theology and eschatology.
[Kindly, read the whole article, and follow up the link to the hadith]
+++++++++++++++
let us carefully note Bostom’s further point: >> Hamas further demonstrates openly its adherence to a central motif of Jew—hatred in Muslim eschatology—Article 7 of the Hamas Charter concludes with a verbatim reiteration of the [above cited] apocalyptic hadith. >>
Suddenly, the firing of 8 – 10,000 rockets into Israel against civilians from 3000 to now, from a Gaza that since 2005 – 6 has but one Jewish occupant, a kidnapped soldier, shines in a very different light than that of “resistance” to an occupation that is no more in Gaza. An occupation that was a part of a defensive war against the openly stated aim of annihilation of the Jews in the Holy Land — sounds familiar? (So this was a subtext in 1948 and 1967 also.)
And, note Mr St Hill et al: where there is still a partial occupation, in the W Bank, that is in the context of defensive war again — Jordan’s decision to join Egypt and Syria in 1967 [king Hussein for survival had but little choice] and resulting artillery and aerial bombardment backed up by ground attacks in Jerusalem.
More immediately it is in the context of the the otherwise inexplicable walkaway by Arafat in 2000 from the best deal he could expect short of wiping out the Jews of Israel and seizing their lands. As Dennis Ross testifies, 97% of the lands on the E side of the 1949 lines (forming a contiguous whole), with E Jerusalem as Capital and control of Temple Mount, with all of Gaza, with a highway joining the two, and with financial support from Israel, the US and the international community. All of which would have amply fulfilled UNSC 242 and 338 on their documented and objectively established proper meaning. Again, we hear a familiar echo . . .
But the problem does not stop there.
For on the Black Flag armies mentioned above, we may read:
>> “Hadith indicate that black flags coming from the area of Khorasan will signify the appearance of the Mahdi is nigh. Khorasan is in todays Iran, and
some scholars have said that this hadith means when the black flags appear from Central Asia, i.e.
in the direction of Khorasan, then the appearance of the Mahdi is imminent.”
[The Approach of Armageddon? Canada, Supreme Muslim Council of America, 2003), p. 231. (NB Others point out that Khorasan formerly referred to areas E & NE of Persian
Empire; and point to the Taliban as the probable black flag army.) ] >>
+++++++++++++
In many IslamIST eyes, we are now in eschatological times, and they expect the all conquering armies to emerge from the hills on the borders of Pakistan and/or Iran and/or the sands of Iraq. Then under Mahdi — and does Mr bin Laden aspire to that status? — they expect these armies to surge all over the ME, including Israel, slaugthering the Jews.
Then, fresh from such genocide, the whole world is to be conquered by these same armies and their leaders.
I think — having heard another side of the story — we now need to think very, very soberly, about the issues, conflicts and places that now dominate so much of current International affairs.
And, about the implications for us here in our region.
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // January 24, 2009 at 8:38 AM
PS (2): I assume the problem is links, so I will eliminate in the following . . .
**********
Let’s get a little more reference context.
For that, a good place to begin is with the recent comments in author of The Legacy of Jihad, Andrew Bostom’s July 17, 2006 article, Apocalyptic Muslim Jew-hatred, that observes:
+++++++++++++++
There are short—term reasons behind the attacks on Israel by Hezbollah and Hamas. But underlying all the geo—strategy is a solid foundation of fanatical Jew—hatred, dating back to the founding of Islam. There is literally nothing Israel or Jews can do to appease those who seek to annihilate them . . . .
Georges Vajda —in a seminal 1937 essay [1: Juifs et Musulmans selon le hadit [Jews and Muslims according to the hadith]. Journal Asiatique, 1937, Vol. 229, pp. 57—129. English translation by Susan Emanuel.] (long before the establishment of the State of Israel)—provides an overall assessment of the portrayal of the Jews in the hadith collections (the putative words and deeds of the Muslim prophet Muhammad, as recorded by pious transmitters), complemented by Koranic verses, and observations from the earliest Muslim biographies [or 'sira'] of Muhammad.
Vajda’s research demonstrates how Muslim eschatology emphasizes the Jews’ supreme hostility to Islam. Jews are described as adherents of the Dajjāl—the Muslim equivalent of the Anti—Christ—and as per another tradition, the Dajjāl is in fact Jewish. At his appearance, other traditions state that the Dajjāl will be accompanied by 70,000 Jews from Isfahan wrapped in their robes, and armed with polished sabers, their heads covered with a sort of veil. When the Dajjāl is defeated, his Jewish companions will be slaughtered— everything will deliver them up except for the so—called gharkad tree. Thus, according to a canonical hadith . . . .
>> ‘The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad [box-thorn, related to both the Goji berry tree and the tea tree] would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.’ (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985). >>
Both jihadist terror organizations believe they can now take advantage of their political gains in Lebanon (Hizbollah), and the Palestinian controlled areas of Gaza and the West Bank (Hamas), and succeed in their goal to destroy Israel—motivated by a primordial hatred of Jews, sanctioned in Muslim theology and eschatology.
[Kindly, read the whole article, and follow up the link to the hadith]
+++++++++++++++
let us carefully note Bostom’s further point: >> Hamas further demonstrates openly its adherence to a central motif of Jew—hatred in Muslim eschatology—Article 7 of the Hamas Charter concludes with a verbatim reiteration of the [above cited] apocalyptic hadith. >>
Suddenly, the firing of 8 – 10,000 rockets into Israel against civilians from 3000 to now, from a Gaza that since 2005 – 6 has but one Jewish occupant, a kidnapped soldier, shines in a very different light than that of “resistance” to an occupation that is no more in Gaza. An occupation that was a part of a defensive war against the openly stated aim of annihilation of the Jews in the Holy Land — sounds familiar? (So this was a subtext in 1948 and 1967 also.)
And, note Mr St Hill et al: where there is still a partial occupation, in the W Bank, that is in the context of defensive war again — Jordan’s decision to join Egypt and Syria in 1967 [king Hussein for survival had but little choice] and resulting artillery and aerial bombardment backed up by ground attacks in Jerusalem.
More immediately it is in the context of the the otherwise inexplicable walkaway by Arafat in 2000 from the best deal he could expect short of wiping out the Jews of Israel and seizing their lands. As Dennis Ross testifies, 97% of the lands on the E side of the 1949 lines (forming a contiguous whole), with E Jerusalem as Capital and control of Temple Mount, with all of Gaza, with a highway joining the two, and with financial support from Israel, the US and the international community. All of which would have amply fulfilled UNSC 242 and 338 on their documented and objectively established proper meaning.
Again, we hear a sadly and regrettably familiar echo . . .
But the problem does not stop there. For on the Black Flag armies mentioned above, we may read:
>> “Hadith indicate that black flags coming from the area of Khorasan will signify the appearance of the Mahdi is nigh. Khorasan is in todays Iran, and
some scholars have said that this hadith means when the black flags appear from Central Asia, i.e.
in the direction of Khorasan, then the appearance of the Mahdi is imminent.”
[The Approach of Armageddon? Canada, Supreme Muslim Council of America, 2003), p. 231. (NB Others point out that Khorasan formerly referred to areas E & NE of Persian
Empire; and point to the Taliban as the probable black flag army.) ] >>
+++++++++++++
In many IslamIST eyes, we are now in eschatological times, and they expect the all conquering armies to emerge from the hills on the borders of Pakistan and/or Iran and/or the sands of Iraq. Then under Mahdi — and does Mr bin Laden aspire to that status? — they expect these armies to surge all over the ME, including Israel, slaughtering the Jews.
Then, fresh from such genocide, the whole world is to be conquered by these same armies and their leaders.
I think — having heard another side of the story — we now need to think very, very soberly, about the issues, conflicts and places that now dominate so much of current International affairs.
And, about the implications for us here in our region.
GEM of TKI
Dissident // January 24, 2009 at 11:23 AM
Dictionary, a trenchant and perceptive analysis of the situation which should, for-once-and-all, put to rest the emotional and inflammatory rhetoric of the uninformed on this forum, and in other media.
Carlos // January 24, 2009 at 11:36 AM
Yes, the above brief, but extremely relevant ‘Islamist’ religious ideology, that is at the ‘heart’ of their thrust, to first exterminate the state of Israel and all Jews, then world conquest, cannot be emphasized enough, which is unfortunately NOT understood by most people in the West; and is in fact the ‘driving’ force behind ‘Hamas’ ‘Hizbollah’ and other deeply related Islamic, terrorist organizations.
The point made by ‘GEM of TKI’ the refusal of Arafat by walking away in 2000, from, ‘…the best deal he could expect, short of wiping out the Jews of Israel and seizing their lands.” Cannot be overlooked, as is obviously done by those who are sympathizers with Hamas and the Palestinians, bearing in mind, that this proposal was most recent, (2000) and would have ‘…amply fulfilled UNSC 242 and 338 on their documents and objectively established proper meanin.”
Until those who oppose Israel in this conflict, begin to understand that this imperative of utter ‘hatred’ which began in earnest with Prophet Mohammed and the ‘birth’ of Islam in the 7th century, and is now reaching its ultimate purpose in the 21st century, fueled by the availability of weapons of mass destruction, which they intend to use once they get them, the uninformed will never be able to honestly and objectively understand why Israel HAS no choice but to strongly exhert her military power, which thus far, is only a fraction of what she has, in order to contain, at least, those who WANT TO DESTROY HER.
Fool // January 24, 2009 at 2:03 PM
Thoughts of a fool, and the knowledge of hatred and vindictive reactions to come:
Please let us remember that in order for a peace agreement to be forged; Muslims and Jews, Israelis, Palestinians and others; will have to come to terms with each other’s existence.
We cannot go on denying that our lands and our separate needs always exist. I pray that my kind be accepted and no longer hated, just as I pray for personnal guidance not to hate others.
I know it is not in the prophecy, not in the rhetoric, not in our newspapers, not on this blog, not on this thread, but I pray for peace.
And also I pray for Barbados to put away anti-Semitism, plus other forms of racialistic caricatures, asking them to go away from this place Barbados and make us tolerant of our diversities.
I pray for acceptance of minorities in Barbados including Guyanese workers who are honest; and the guidance to the Prime Minister who will have to ask some to go home due to lack of available jobs; and acceptance of homosexuals on this blog. I pray for reason and truth to be expressed and noticed above politics, and that these motivations be transparent to more people than myself.
I pray that our leaders be diligent and carefully safeguard the soon dwindling tax monies and NIS monies as they dwindle in the coming months. I pray for laws to protect the expenditure by Government on this our island, including the 400 Million dollars. And the control of our debt while maintaining the amenities to our under-privileged.
Please all, think about praying with me. If you do not believe in any Higher Being, hope strongly for good things here in Barbados.
Dictionary // January 25, 2009 at 5:35 AM
Gentle People:
First, thanks for a few kind words just above.
I await the response of those who have so strongly advocated against Israel/ Zionists/ Jews in the further above [and elsewhere in the Bajan media recently], and against Bible-believing Christians (who often support Israel) as well.
On this last, I do note in passing that it is easy to airily dismiss Bible based beliefs as mythological, deriding such Christians as ignorant or deluded or worse. I pause and draw attention to the central warranting argument of the Christian faith — the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, with 500+ eyewitnesses — and the resulting outpouring of the Spirit of God leading to a resurrection powered faith that through personal encounter with the Living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [and yea even of Ishmael -- "God hears"] has transformed lives and cultures for the good for 2,000 years now. Such people are going to take seriously the scriptures that predict and prophesy just such events [cf Is 53 and Ac 1 - 2, 17:16 - 34 and 1 Cor 15:1 - 11.]
I note, too, that I forgot one component of the 2000 Dennis Ross mediated bargain:
++++
Not only would the W Bank be 97% in the *second* Arab Palestinian state ([Trans-]Jordan[ian Palestine] being the first), but compensating land would be transferred from Israel on the other side of the 1949 line for the other 3% [Land that evidently is predominantly Arab in population] .
Arafat’s astonishing response — walkaway and terroristic war — to the best reasonable deal he could hope for, is a strong reason why the Israeli public has decisively shifted away from a “peace at almost any price” mindset hat grew across the 1990’s. For, if THAT deal was walked away from and turned into an excuse for terroristic war, then the only reasonable explanation is the one that we hear too often in Arabic but not usually in English: genocidal intent, per clause 7 of the Hamas Charter, and per the hadith it cites under an IslamIST interpretation.
(Unfortunately, such interpretations have entirely too much classic and authoritative Islamic thought support — and examples from the words and deeds of M himself and the first four, “rightly guided” Caliphs, to make me comfortable. I hope that we in the West can so keep our alertness and balance that we will be able to provide a decisive counterweight that the moderates will in the end prevail and moderating reformation will eventually be the generally accepted Muslim view. One more item for F’s prayer list.)
+++++++++++
I add that 1/5 of Israel’s citizens are Arabs, and have all the rights that Jewish citizens have, and one less obligation: no compulsory military service — though significant numbers serve on a voluntary basis. The Druze from the 1950’s on have volunteered as a community to be subject to the draft. Circassians, who are not Arabs but are a Muslim Minority, also willingly serve in the Israeli Army.
The “apartheid” accusation against Israel is without merit, and is a turnabout accusation in light of the status of Women and non-Muslim minorities — dhimmis — in the Arab states.
Thank you again
GEM of TKI
PS: Moderators, thank you for putting up the version of the PS yesterday with the links. Perhaps, the one without the links could be removed? [BTW, what is the set link limit there at BU? Does BU accept HTML markups such as for addresses, bold, italics and blockquotes, as is common for WordPress blogs?]
Dictionary // January 25, 2009 at 5:47 AM
PPS: I think the interview with a British Army Colonel who was a commander in Afghanistan may help us set a bit of balancing context on the “massacre”/ “disproportion” narrative on the just concluded round of Gaza fighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw&eurl=http://littlegreenfootballs.com
(Notice how the reporter fails to realise the significance of informing the occupants of a house — plainly (as the Israelis MUST have known that this would be an easy propaganda story) being used for significant military purposes — to evacuate 24 hrs before it was hit. that’s a lot of time to let the innocent leave — and frankly, even the guilty and relevant war materials. [I suspect that the war materials involved were of such a nature that they could not be moved on 24 hours notice. Rather reminds me of seeing on an ordinary looking house in a very ordinary neighbourhood -- sort of like a low end Ealing Park Ch Ch. -- in I believe Santa Clara city, Cuba: "Zone Militar: No pasa!" Military posts -- per international law and for very good reasons -- should NOT be in civilian neighbourhoods!])
Technician // January 25, 2009 at 8:30 AM
I add that 1/5 of Israel’s citizens are Arabs, and have all the rights that Jewish citizens have…….
It is amazing how you could slip this blatant lie in here.
Dictionary // January 25, 2009 at 9:45 AM
Technician:
It is a good thing that I passed back here before heading off to church this morning, for I see just above remarks that are *tantamount* to calling me a liar.
A corrective is in order.
First, to my best knowledge, the Arabs of Israel, i.e. these are Israeli citizens, about 1 – 1.5 millions or so or about 20% of Israel’s citizens, have the full legal rights of citizenship, and no compulsory obligation of military service. As noted, the Druzes volunteered to be subject tot he draft, and Circassians are also by their choice subject to such service. Bedouin often volunteer to serve in the army and are noted for their work as scouts and trackers.
This status, to the best of my knowledge, is in accord with the commitment in Israel’s May 15 1948 declaration of Independence that:
>> THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it
will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. >>
As a result, one Israeli Arab has served on the Supreme Court of Israel in recent times and I believe one may have served recently as a cabinet member — which is a sharp contrast to the male Muslim supremacy enforced in long settled [over 1,000 years settled in many regards] Sharia Islamic — note; I am not using IslamIST now — law.
Arab citizens of Israel are not subject to a tax of humiliation and sometimes confiscation and enslavement, unlike the Jizya of Q 9:29 across time.
They enjoy freedom of association, freedom of conscience, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom to vote and stand for office, and and as a result, freedom of representation in the Knesset, Israel’s parliament. From that parliament, they have even denounced the conduct of Israel during the recent war.
Their women enjoy equality of rights before the law — which Sharia specifically forbids.
Whether they are Muslim, Druze or Christian, their testimony is not immediately discounted at law if they are in contradiction to the testimony of a Jew or a Jewish man. (Contrast Sharia on that, and think about what the Sharia does to property and personal rights and freedoms. if you need a reference, cf the works of Bat Y’eor.)
I am of course very aware that *social* discrimination exists, as is inevitable in any multicultural society, and indeed targets not only Arabs but Oriental Jews. Such is not the same as an official policy, one without effective legal redress — by sharp contrast with blacks under the colour bar or those who are not Muslim Men under Sharia.
Kindly, supply ACCURATE and relevant corrective information — I am and have been speaking of the Citizens of Israel — if that summary just given is not so.
No red herrings or strawman games please.
And, the sort of half-truth, and/or outright false and erroneous, and/or unable to predict the future accurately, statements by Mr Killgore above are precisely NOT such accurate corrective information. For just one instance, Mr Sharon during his time in office was involved in a process that very predictably led to the expulsion of people from their homes and farms: namely, approximately 8,000 Jewish settlers in what strictly are the disputed territories of N Gaza. That runs exactly counter to what Mr Killgore projected circa early 1990’s.
Finally, in future kindly refrain from immediate resort to ad hominem language that presumes/ implies/ strongly suggests intentional deception on my part.
That, sir, is a SERIOUS breach of your duties of care. Such behaviour, sadly, does not speak well of you.
Please, please [as my old Headmaster at Kolij used to say] do better than that.
GEM of TKI
David // January 25, 2009 at 4:18 PM
@Dictionary
Just worry about submitting the comment and if the spammer gets you we will retrieve it:-)
Technician // January 25, 2009 at 5:57 PM
Kindly, supply ACCURATE and relevant corrective information — I am and have been speaking of the Citizens of Israel — if that summary just given is not so.
Accurate by your standards and beliefs no doubt??
That is impossible to do when the other side only sees what they want to believe.
Anything that refutes your claims are dismissed as inaccurate, half truths and other titles.
People like you and Carlos are the only authority, the rest us us are stupid, ignorant and misinformed, therefore I give you all a wide berth.
I am glad that most are not like you.
Technician // January 25, 2009 at 6:04 PM
I guess this will be classified as false, untrue….etc.
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=34885
Carlos // January 25, 2009 at 9:00 PM
Facts , whether true or false need to be honestly and objectively interpreted, in order to arrive at logical conclusions; some are able to understand this, unfortunately many are unable to reason this ‘critical’ thought process through.
Technician: You falsely and erronously implied that GEM of TKI was lying; this was refuted by their submission of facts, soundly putting you in your place; Yet, you still continue with your purile nonsense!
Dictionary // January 25, 2009 at 9:35 PM
David et al:
Thanks.
Pardon length following to deal with an ad hominem attack backed up by half truths.
___________
Technician:
I will comment on a few follow-up points:
1] Ad hominems –> Notice how you BEGIN: >>Accurate by your standards and beliefs no doubt?? >>
T, you are here *again* ignoring your duties of care by assuming and asserting that I am in effect closed minded and unwilling to listen to the truth.
Onlookers, the underlying cluster of fallacies is: drag a distractive red herring, leading out to strawmen laced with oil of ad hominems, to be ignited spectacularly, thus clouding and poisoning the atmosphere required for fair minded, balanced, well-informed and clear discussion.
So, let us note: for nigh on two days now, the same pundits above who were bashing away at Israel and Christians at will for many days have now been utterly unable to address the underlying issues of the 1919 world order of nation states vs IslamISM as a world conquest agenda that has from its foundation set out on genocide of Jews.
So, let us keep that in mind as we deal with the latest distractive, ad hominem laced claims.
2] Personal attack –> here, we observe T: >>People like you and Carlos are the only authority, the rest us us are stupid, ignorant and misinformed, therefore I give you all a wide berth >>
Where have I claimed any authority above and beyond what the facts and reasoning linked thereto warrant?
Where have I ever called someone stupid?
Where have I simply dismissed misinformation without prioviding at least a hint on how it can be corrected?
Onlookers, observe again, I have pointed to the accessible facts of the Versailles settlement of 1919 and the implications thereof. [Just do some Google etc searches under key words -- I am hampered by the blog's links policy.]
I have in particular pointed to the facts of what the Quran and Hadiths say, and what is in Clause 7 of Hamas’ charter. I have pointed you to Mr Bostom’s remarkable analyses, and to Bat Ye’or, a leading scholar on dhimmitude and jihad across the ages.
I have pointed to openly and easily checkable facts on the modern history of Israel and the associated disputes, starting with citing the 1919 submission of the Zionists to the Versailles conference, and the associated January 1919 London agreement between Chaim Weizmann [later 1st pres, Israel] representing the Jewish Nation and Feisal Hussein [later, king of Iraq] representing the Arab nation. Similarly, on the League and UN mandates and the wars of Independence and 1967, also the Khartoum three nos, the 1979 Israel-Egypt peace, the 1994 Jordan peace, the 1993 – now Oslo process, the Dennis Ross compromise of 2000. As well, the 2000 pullout from Lebanon [and facts on the 1982 invasion], and the Gaza 2005 pullout, including that the only people dispossessed by Sharon as PM were 7800 Israeli settlers in what strictly are disputed territories and even if considered then occupied, so occupied in defensive war in 1967 in the face of a ring of iron and a blockade that was an act of war.
None of the facts and more on the substantial matter have been disputed, they are just being angrily and uncivilly dismissed with ad hominems because — surprise — they do not fit T’s view.
In short we see here a classic turnabout, unsubstantiated or outright false accusation on his part leading to closed minded dismissal of some inconvenient facts and the people who may has put them up.
Technician: that’s not cricket!
3] Arab rights –> the cited page from a Turkish newspaper is headlined: >>Arab MPs protest offensive, Israel bans them from elections >>
It will help to know this, from Wiki (taken as a handy first reference that is likely if anything to lean T’s way):
>>Arab citizens comprise almost 20% of the population of Israel . . . There is research that supports that the overwhelming majority of Arab citizens of Israel would choose to remain Israeli citizens rather than become citizens of a future Palestinian state . . . . Israel’s Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race or sex.[101]
The rights of citizens are guaranteed by a set of Basic Laws (Israel does not have a written constitution).[102] Although this set of laws does not explicitly include the term “right to equality”, the Israeli Supreme Court has consistently interpreted “Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty”[103] and “Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)”[104] as guaranteeing equal rights for all Israeli citizens.[105]
The website for the Israeli government’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that “Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights” and states that “The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel’s establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).” [106] Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to volunteer for the Israeli army.>>
And this:
>>Amendment #9 to the ‘Basic Law: The Knesset and the Law of Political Parties’ passed on July 31, 1985, changed section 7(a) to state that a political party “may not participate in the elections if there is in its goals or actions a denial of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people, a denial of the democratic nature of the state, or incitement to racism.”[129][130] . . . .
In December 2002 Palestinian member of Knesset Azmi Bishara and his party, Balad, which also calls for Israel to become “a state of all its citizens,” were banned by the Israeli Central Elections Committee, for refusing to recognize Israel as a “Jewish democratic state”[132] and making statements promoting armed struggle against it. The Supreme Court overruled the decision in January 2003.[133] When, in December 2005, Bishara told an audience in Lebanon that Arab citizens “[...]are like all Arabs, only with Israeli citizenship forced upon them [...] Return Palestine to us and take your democracy with you. We Arabs are not interested in it,”[134] this was interpreted as denial of the democratic nature of the state once more.
The only party currently banned under this law is the right-wing Jewish Kach party.[135] . . . .
There are three mainstream Arab parties in Israel: Hadash (a joint Arab-Jewish party with a large Arab presence), Balad and the United Arab List, which is a coalition of several different political organizations including the Islamic Movement. In addition to these, Ahmed Tibi’s Ta’al faction has been elected to the last two Knessets as part of alliances with Hadash and the United Arab List. Two Arab parties ran in Israel’s first election in 1949, with one, the Democratic List of Nazareth, winning two seats. Until the 1960s all Arab parties in the Knesset were affiliated with Mapai, the ruling party.
A minority of Arabs join and vote for Zionist parties; in the 2006 elections 30% of the Arab vote went to such parties, up from 25% in 2003,[136] though down on the 1999 (30.5%) and 1996 elections (33.4%).[137] Left-wing parties (i.e. Labor Party and Meretz-Yachad, and previously One Nation) are the most popular parties amongst Arabs, though some Druze have also voted for right-wing parties such as Likud and Yisrael Beitenu, as well as the centrist Kadima.[138][139] . . . .
Palestinian Arabs sat in the state’s first parliamentary assembly; currently, 12 of the 120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Arab citizens, most representing Arab political parties, and one of Israel’s Supreme Court judges is a Palestinian Arab.[145]
In the public employment sphere, by the end of 2002, 6.1% of 56,362 Israeli civil servants were Arab.[146] In January 2004, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared that every state-run company must have at least one Arab citizen of Israel on its board of directors.[147] >>
Taken in that context, it is fair comment to say that the substantial facts are as I have indicated: equality under Israeli law, but with problems over social discrimination, which can sometimes become administrative [as is common, even here in the Caribbean], but with effective right of relief.
IN SHORT, I HAVE PRECISELY NOT LIED.
T owes an apology here.
4] Arab Parties –> the Turkish newspaper article T links, dated Jan 13, observes:
>> A Central Election Committee panel [Elections in Israel being due in Feb] voted on Monday to back the motion filed by two right-wing parties, which also accused the National Democratic Assembly (also known as Balad) and Ra’am-Ta’al of incitement and supporting “terrorist” groups.>>
It further claims that such banning is >> the culmination of years of discrimination within Israel against its Arab citizens. >>
Given that we have at least one Jewish party banned under the same statute, this is not an issue of generalised and legally based discrimination vs Arabs [by contrast with say Sharia law as I noted already], but a question of the limits of democratic civil society’s umbrella of protections and freedoms in the context of those who have declared intent to undermine and destroy the same. (For relevantly parallel instance, in Germany and Austria, Nazism is very sharply restricted.)
In the case in view, a Jan 19 Jerusalem Post report, “Balad, UAL appeal ban in High Court,” informs us:
>> Balad and United Arab List-Ta’al, the two Arab parties that were disqualified from running in February’s elections, filed an appeal on Monday with the High Court of Justice.
Attorneys Hassan Jabareen and Orna Kohn of Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, filed the appeal on behalf of the Arab parties, which stated that the central elections committee “violated the rules of natural justice and ignored [Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz's] legal opinion, according to which there is no evidence to justify preventing the participation of the two lists in the Knesset elections.” . . . . In 2003, the committee disqualified both Tibi, who was still with UAL-Ta’al, and the Balad party, from participating in parliamentary elections that year, but the High Court of Justice canceled those decisions. >>
In short, there is a history here, and the rights protection system is at work; with the government’s Attorney General in the corner of the parties that a Committee has voted to ban.
So, the case illustrates that there are issues and concerns, and that Arab Citizens of Israel — even in controversial cases — have precisely the legal rights that I have listed above.
5] Outcome of the case, Jan 21:
Even more interesting is the following from Y’net news, Jan 21, headlined “Arab parties win disqualification appeal “:
>> The High Court of Justice overturned Wednesday the Central Elections Committee’s decision to disqualify the Arab parties, Balad and United Arab List-Ta’al from taking part in the next Knesset race.
The Central Elections Committee explained its decision by saying that since neither party recognized Israel as the Jewish homeland, they were not eligible to bid in the nearing general elections . . . >>
In short, we have seen the rights process at work on the behalf of even plainly controversial Arab citizens and parties of Israel.
That is, T has again cited less than half of a story — finding and linking what is plainly a one-sided report that seemingly supports his narrative, and in a context where he has again failed to do his homework on what happened next — even within a few days.
‘Nuff said.
And, remember, the days-count on the substantial, and un-addressed issue is now fast coming up on a full two days.
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // January 25, 2009 at 9:57 PM
Carlos:
Thanks.
Let us hope T will first recognise his breaches of civility, apologise and then attend to the balance of the issues on the merits of fact and cogent, logical reasoning.
Especially the relevant logic of abduction: inference to best explanation anchored by factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory elegance and power: neither simplistic nor ad hoc.
Israel has its sins, as do all nations [cf Ezekiel 35 - 39, esp 36, for a God's-eye view on this!], but it is simply not the fascist-racist genocidal monster that T et al portray. And, I would think that the linked BBC news interview with a British commander experienced in the region will give a significant balance to how the recent Gaza campaign is being routinely portrayed.
Let us not forget Aristotle’s warning, with the sad fate of Socrates hovering in his mind: >> our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not as those we make when we are pained and hostile.>>
So, let us beware those who use divisive and uncivil rhetoric. For, down that road lie many destructively mistaken judgements and injustice.
Also, Bible believing Christians in our region are often simple people who are not equipped or fully informed to address the details — and too often, deceptions and half truths — of international affairs. But their instincts are often quite sound.
I happen to be a Bible-believing Christian [per Ac 17:16 - 34], and one who has some relevant knowledge.
Having had this blog thread brought to my attention, I have thought a few balancing remarks are in order.
While — on long experience — I am not surprised to be met with half truths and ad hominems as above, I find this a disappointing sign of where civil society in Barbados and the wider Caribbean is evidently headed.
Surely, we can do better than this!
A lot better . . .
GEM of TKI
Not Saved // January 25, 2009 at 10:20 PM
Gem of TKI,
were the military objectives of the IDF met?
(why did you thank Carlos for yet another ad hominem aimed at Technician when you have berated those who employ the tactic)
Not Saved // January 25, 2009 at 10:41 PM
so much for the claims of the British Colonel
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/25/gaza.legal.defense/index.html
dissident // January 25, 2009 at 10:46 PM
Carlos, quote, “Facts , whether true or false…”
Correct me if I’m wrong but it there such a thing as a “false” fact? I always understood that the word ‘fact’ implied truth or accuracy or veracity of the particular thing.
Just wondering…
Not Saved // January 25, 2009 at 10:46 PM
GEM,
If you think T breached civility, you obviously missed a lot of posts by Carlos
that man became downright rude
Not Saved // January 25, 2009 at 10:56 PM
Dissident,
I too wondered why a “false fact” needed to be “honestly and objectively interpeted”
Not Saved // January 25, 2009 at 11:15 PM
From Noam Chomsky (born to Jewish parents)……….
Thirty years ago Chief of Staff Mordechai Gur observed that since 1948, “we have been fighting against a population that lives in villages and cities.” As Israel’s most prominent military analyst, Zeev Schiff, summarized his remarks, “the Israeli Army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously … the Army, he said, has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets … [but] purposely attacked civilian targets.” The reasons were explained by the distinguished statesman Abba Eban: “there was a rational prospect, ultimately fulfilled, that affected populations would exert pressure for the cessation of hostilities.”
Not Saved // January 25, 2009 at 11:26 PM
Also from Chomsky……..
One of the wisest voices in Israel, Uri Avnery, writes that after an Israeli military victory,
“What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet. In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the State of Israel.”
Technician // January 26, 2009 at 12:33 AM
@ Gem of TKI….
Do you remember asking me for an apology on other threads…my answer remains the same …HELL NO!!!
I will never apologize to you or any one else of your ilk, you have not made a point that I cant refute but how can I when everything I have posted is dismissed by you and Carlos.
You are both biased towards Israel as it compliments your beliefs and faith in prophecy being fulfilled.
I do not have the time to post those long ass pieces, I rather get to the point and deal with the facts.
If you or Carlos really think that what is happening now is really from years ago…keep fooling yourself.The US support of the Zionist state is recent, compared to your history.
What you see happening now is strictly political.
You both call yourselves Christian….what a laugh, you both defend a Nation along biblical lines and history, a Nation whose believers dont even have shit to do with your God…another joke.
I guess the wp shells used against the poor civilians, against the rules of war, are more lies .
I guess the state sponsored assassinations of democratically elected officials are also untruths and propaganda.
I guess the bombing of UN schools is another untruth.
Over 1000 dead, 25% children…more lies.
My quotes are from people who have a different opinion, therefore they are false, yours are from Zionists, so it is gospel.
Quite frankly, I have had enough of your rhetoric ….so as usual I will take the highway because your way is…well.
Dictionary // January 26, 2009 at 5:37 AM
Onlookers:
First, it is quite evident that we are dealing with utter uncivility on the part of some commenters.
In particular, T, you have in effect called me a liar. I have corrected you on facts. You now resort to vulgarities in refusing to do what a decent gentleman would do on such correction.
That tells us all we need to know about you, sir.
Sadly.
GEM of TKI
Technician // January 26, 2009 at 7:03 AM
Well….all of us are not ‘Christians’ like you, therefore we all can not be perfect.
It is amazing that you come on this thread near the end and preach to us about civility, when in earlier posts, your brother in arms Carlos shows that he too is also lacking.
I really dont know who you think you are to insist on an apology or to sit in judgment of me but if that turns you on …so be it.
IMHO, you are a liar and that is my opinion, whether you like it or not.
I dont live by your standards and what I choose to believe is entirely up to me.
This thread started dealing with the conflict as it is now. Both you and Carlos turned it into a sermon to push your agenda, when others like myself disagree, we were call all sorts of names by Carlos.
Now you want to look down your nose on me with you pompous, arrogant attitude and think I will conform?
You ‘Christians’ are really something else.
Vulgarities……..ass….shit..hmmm.
Dictionary // January 26, 2009 at 7:09 AM
Now on matters of substance:
I see a reference to a CNN article “Israel prepares legal defense of soldiers” cited as though this undercuts decisively the BBC interview with a British Colonel I linked yesterday.
So, let’s read:
>>JERUSALEM (CNN) — Israel’s government on Sunday approved a measure that will give legal protection to its military officers if they are accused of war crimes during the Gaza incursion, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said.
“The state of Israel will completely back anyone that acted in its name,” Olmert said Sunday at the beginning of the weekly Cabinet meeting. “The soldiers and commanders that were sent on missions in Gaza need to know that they are safe from different tribunals.
“Israel will assist them and protect them as they physically protected us during the operation in Gaza,” he said.
A team of legal experts, led by Justice Minister Daniel Friedman, will defend Israel’s military operation in Gaza, according to Olmert. Friedman and international law experts will formulate answers to possible questions regarding the activity of the Israel Defense Forces that might arise, he said.
The Israeli government — particularly the Defense and Justice ministries — is concerned that Israeli military officers could be singled out in future lawsuits alleging human rights violations during Israel’s recent offensive against Hamas, according to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. >>
In short, the CNN article does not at all contradict the BBC interview with Col Richard Kemp.
Instead it reveals (albeit in a one-sideed way) the latest battleground in C21 war: the need to defend soldiers in international tribunals from very expensive court cases brought in the same demonising spirit as we have so abundantly seen above. (There is a serious question of politically motivated, ill-founded accusations of war crimes that if it is allowed to succeed will sooner rather than later utterly undermine the credibility of the recently set up international courts; but that is a matter for another day.)
Now, too, I find it interesting that the article *begins* the story with the Israeli retaliatory strike. It thus fails to mention a crucial context: that over the past several years something like 8 – 10,000 mortar bombs and rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza, targetting civilians and gradually ramping up in range to now reach Beersheba, in the neighbourhood of Israel’s Dimona nuclear centre.
These are acts of war and war crimes, sustained over the better part of a decade by an internationally declared terrorist entity, Hamas. One that has — by charter [cf clause 7 and the cited hadith on Jew slaughter above] — committed itself to religiously motivated genocide of Jews. And, all in a context where since 2005 the defensive occupation of Gaza dating to the 1967 war, has been ended; and one in which the remaining issues on the W bank are in a similar context of terrorism repeatedly derailing reasonable compromise.
Worse, from 2000, the Dennis Ross compromise put on the table all that the Palestinian Arabs could *reasonably* ask for in light ofr issues that — very relevantly date back to 1919 and before and even to 2 – 3,000 years ago in some aspects:
a –> 97% of WB with compensating land elsewhere,
b –> E Jerusalem as capital, and control of Temple Mt,
c –> 100% of Gaza,with a highway corridor connecting to the W bank, and
d –> massive financial support and compensations.
ARAFAT WALKED AWAY, strongly indicating that the real agenda — as Hamas has put into its official charter in so many words — is driving Jews out of their ancestral homeland in the Middle East amidst much slaughter. GENOCIDE, in one word.
And that to be followed — per other hadiths and similarly structured claims including against us here in the Caribbean — by global conquest under the triumphant black flag armies of the mahdi.
Onlookers, notice how these and other highly relevant contextual facts are being passed over in a convenient silence, in the above in the rush to reinforce a one sided narrative. One compounded by insistent indulgence in personal attacks against those who raise such inconvenient facts as the Dennis Ross 2000 compromise and the genocide and global conquest hadiths that are embedded in IslamISM.
Hamas has compounded all of the above by using the civilians of Gaza as human shields, in order to carry out a so-called “CNN Strategy.”
Namely, when Arab civilians used as human shields die as a result of counter strikes [and BTW, the casualty numbers released under the control of Hamas will be dubious], the “bloody flag” is then waved in front of the international media and public.
Finally, there are in fact some specific allegations in the article that need follow up:
>> U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has demanded an independent investigation into Israeli military actions that damaged U.N. facilities in Gaza. Israel is alleged to have used white phosphorous shells which sparked a massive fire at the U.N. humanitarian compound.
The use of white phosphorus is restricted under international law. >>
On these we can note:
1] The International Committee of the Red Cross states in a Jan 13 AP report that appeared internationally, but was not referenced in the CNN article: >> The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest the incendiary agent is being used improperly or illegally . . . . “In some of the strikes in Gaza it’s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,” Herby told The Associated Press. “But it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way.”
In response, the Israeli military said Tuesday that it “wishes to reiterate that it uses weapons in compliance with international law, while strictly observing that they be used in accordance with the type of combat and its characteristics.” >>
2] So, while it is possible that a stray WP round or two did ignite fires at a UN compound, the immediate one- sided inference to deliberate war crimes is highly dubious. (Observe: we hear of no parallel intent to prosecute Hamas’ leadership and military commanders or Iranian backers for several years of what is in effect harassing artillery fire directed at civilians in civilian communities. That almost casual one-sidedness at the highest International levels is deeply revealing.)
3] In the case of the school compound in which, sadly, several dozens of innocents died, it is evident that Hamas terrorist rocketeers and mortar bombers used that school’s facilities and similar sites as a launch platform or as storage sites for rocketing attacks on Israeli civilians; so that the resultant casualties are in the main due to the Hamas war crime of using human shields. Indeed, there are disturbing reports that civilians — including children — may have been forced into such sites by Hamas, upon the receipt of leaflets or phone messages that designated target zones were to be evacuated — an almost unprecedented sacrifice of surprise to reduce risks to innocents. So, I think a reasonable observer would see that the now common accusation of Israelis deliberately targetting innocents in schools is dubious and demonising.
4] Similarly, the actual evidence we just saw is that the Israeli army has seriously sought to AVOID civilian deaths to the extent that is reasonably possible, as the British Colonel underscored in his BBC interview. (And, BTW, one of the subtleties in the narrative is that deaths of Hamas-linked militant activists — some of whom are teenagers of both sexes — are being constantly lumped together with deaths of non-combattants. We also are very soon forgetting the long since videotaped childhood terrorism summer camps programmes that seek to militarise young children. )
I could go on and on and on.
But, such would be pointless.
For, it is now very plain that we are dealing with the now deeply entrenched Saul Alinski’s Rules for Radical agitprop rhetorical tactics that just decided a US presidential election and linked international, bioethics, economic, family values and public policy policy issues by cleverly manipulating perceptions and emotions.
So, let us simply excerpt a bit and call it George at that — astute observers have more than enough evidence to see what the balance on the actual merits is, and can easily see that there is a refusal to be civil on one side.
So, sadly, it is now time “to send some folks to Coventry,” after a quote or two from one of their intellectual ancestors:
Saul Alinski: >> “The end is what you want, the means is how you get it. Whenever we think about social change, the question of means and ends arises. The man of action views the issue of means and ends in pragmatic and strategic terms . . . He asks of ends only whether they are achievable and worth the cost; of means, only whether they will work.” p.24 [In one word, *Machiavellianism*: "Ends justify means" No, they do not!]
“…the organizer must be able to split himself into two parts — one part in the arena of action where he polarizes the issue to 100 to nothing, and helps to lead his forces into conflict, while the other part knows that when the time comes for negotiations that it really is only a 10 percent difference.” p.78 [In other words, deceptive and polarising beyond what is reasonable.]
Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and ‘frozen.’ … When your ‘freeze the target,’ you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments and carry out your attack…. One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angles are on one side and all the devils on the other.” pp.127-134 [In other words uncivil and unwarrantedly destructive to the reputation of others]>>
Sounds familiar?
Sadly, it should!
So now, we know the *why* of the uncivil tactics being routinely used above by those who spent so much time bashing away at Israel, Jews and Christians.
Let me expose the resulting ethical reductio ad absurdum by simply contrasting John Locke’s citation of “the judicious [Richard] Hooker” as he set out to ground and found modern liberty and democracy, in Ch 2 sect 5 of his 2nd essay on civil Govt:
>> . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . *my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection.* From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant. [Cf Rom 13:8 - 10 and Matt 7:12 in light of Leviticus 19:15 - 18] >>
____________
Good day, onlookers — enough has now been said. We can see where the incivility so abundantly documented above is heading, and we can see the contrast between the case in context on the merits and the polarising narratives “we the sheeple” are being so assiduously fed with day by day.
So, onlookers, we have some decisions to make on the future of our civilisation. . .
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // January 26, 2009 at 7:14 AM
PS: In a Rules for Radicals world, we would be very naive to take any major international or regional news or views medium as generally trustworthy. I suggest that we become very cautious in the positions we adopt on international, ethical or policy affairs or even science. Interested onlookers may therefore want to consult the “grading the media” grid here:
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/straight_or_spin.htm
Dictionary // January 26, 2009 at 7:22 AM
PPS: Technician, I pause before walking out.
I will not indulge a flame war, but instead must remind you of the first rule of holes — if you want to get out, stop digging in deeper.
You have already shown us all that your credibility is nil [including when you seek to distract attention from what has happened above when you effectively and unjustifiably called me a liar and refused to apologise, with vulgarity tossed into the refusal). Now, you make it plain that you wish to excuse your habitual incivility by implying that I am a hypocrite to call you out on what now has to be seen as willful false accusation.
Please, please, do better than that.
GEM of TKI
Technician // January 26, 2009 at 7:54 AM
Have a good day sir.
Anonymous // January 26, 2009 at 9:14 AM
Thanks for the link…….it shows your true bias.
Anonymous // January 26, 2009 at 9:35 AM
“The US support of the Zionist state is recent”
“My quotes are from people who have a different opinion, therefore they are false, yours are from Zionists”
“You ‘Christians’ are really something else.”
“I dont live by your standards”
“Vulgarities……..ass….shit..hmmm”
****
Are you living in Barbados, T? Why don’t you contribute to compromised, thoughtful solutions from a Bajan perspective, be less hatred-filled, instead of trying to prolongue a war from your armchair?
Should the world live by *your* standards? What if it won’t and you have to compromise re Israel, or will ensuing results be a continued war until the *Zionists* go away?
Why do you constantly refer to Israelis and/or Jews, or people who believe that Israel should survive… as….. …Zionists?
Do you think that war in Gaza is worth doing over? Where are you taking this thread if not back to war?
Or is his a game for you to *try* to teach people your ways here in Barbados? I hope people read this fact and understand what is happening here.
Peace
by way of mutual acceptance and compromise!
Carlos // January 26, 2009 at 10:53 AM
Yes, GEM of TKI, ‘Facts are stubborn things, and only the (willfully) stubborn, have chosen to reject them.”
Dissident: ‘Carlos, quote, “Facts, whether true or false..’ Correct me if I’m wrong but is there such a thing as a ‘false’ fact? I always understood that the word ‘fact’ implied truth or accuracy or varacity of the particular thing. Just wondering…’
I used the phrase ‘Facts, whether true or false’ against the background of 60 years of relentless, ‘Turnspeak’ cleverly employed by the Arabs, especially Arafat, the PLO et al., to poison the world’s perception of the reality of the Israli/Palestine conflict, by cynical inversion and twisting of the ‘facts’ in order to deceive the uninformed masses of people, who for the most part, have ‘ignorantly’ (lacking knowledge and understanding) believed these so-called ‘facts’ as as wickedly perpetuated by the Arabs; which must then be honestly, objectively, and logically analysed in order to arrive at reasonable, truthful conclusions.
Trusting, that you understand this reasonable explanation…
Hopi // January 26, 2009 at 11:12 AM
@All zionists lapdogs&christian armageddonists…………
You need to stop spewing your endtrails here. You speak of something of which you know absolutely nothing. You are feeding at the trough of the news media i.e BBC, CNN, FOX, NBC & CBS which are all owned and controlled by the same zionists bloodletters who are murdering the Palestinians. What kind of beings could you be to see all this destruction and suffering right before your damn eyes and you still think that these bloody pigs have right to do as they please and still be revered as ‘God’s chosen.’ Are you people mad or drunk or are you still suffering from PTSD of slavery. The world ought to be ashamed of itself for allowing this depreciation of humanity. IT STINKS, IT STINKS and no quote from a bible or any other book can justify this EVIL.Since 1948, this shit has been going on and today its coming to a head. I say to IRAN and all other people in that region of a higher conscience to STAND UP and TOGETHER AGAINST this EVIL known as ZIONISM. For all those of you who support them and think that they are such good people go and check out their Talmud in which they say that it is okay TO HAVE SEX WITH AN INFANT CHILD. And see how much they love the GOYIM. Before you attack me go and check it out. This is the scum that you all support. And by the way BLACKS also died in Hitler’s hellhole as well not just ‘jews.’
…..Anonymous…..It is of utmost importance that the people in Barbados are aware of what is going on in their world because it does affect them. The tentacles of this zionist octopus are spread out all over this planet. Those that resist them are labelled terrorists and the world must hate them and love the real zionist-terrorists.There can be NO compromise between Palestine and ‘israel’ because the latter doesn not want peace. Let them go back to the KHAZAR mountains from whence they came another Ghengis Khan will take care of them.
Fool // January 26, 2009 at 11:25 AM
“There can be NO compromise between Palestine and ‘israel’ because”……………………………………………………………….”Let them go back from whence they came”……..
Fool’s reprise: There can be compromise, even when insane.
Peace!
Anonymous // January 26, 2009 at 12:38 PM
@ Anon….
The word Zionist is not used as a racial slur…….do your homework.
Technician // January 26, 2009 at 12:55 PM
@Anonymous
Are you serious??
Where have I said anything about my standards being the ones to go by?
Where in any of my posts is there hate?
I just dont agree with all the anti -Arab rhetoric and all I show is that Israel themselves are just as much to blame.
Some here just cannot accept this and have gone to great lengths to prove their point.
At the end of the day, the fact still remains, above all the rhetoric, that both sides in the conflict are at fault, not just one.
Christians will always side with Israel, but this doesnt make it right.
Some of the most horrible things done to man were done with the blessing of the church and under the guise of christianity too.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether right or wrong or good or bad.Who are we to judge.
Christians will come with the Bible rhetoric but who is to say that this is absolute truth?
What if, this whole bible stuff is really a myth but has been accepted by many as gospel….what if??
Because I dont agree with this
Technician // January 26, 2009 at 12:57 PM
Thae anon post above this is mine…different pc.
Fool // January 26, 2009 at 1:28 PM
“At the end of the day, the fact still remains, above all the rhetoric, that both sides in the conflict are at fault, not just one”
T, I see you are now back-peddling because I am copying down and pasting your quotes for you to see.
Be that as it may, ‘at the end of the day’, perhaps you and I can sit down, have a cup of tea, and find some real-life solutions together, rather than Israel/Jew/*Zionist* bashing.
I will sit with you and drink tea, perhaps we can find a way. Shall we try?
Peace.
Dissident // January 26, 2009 at 3:46 PM
Carlos, thanks for your explanation of your use of the term “false…facts.” I was asking more from a logical standpoint because the term “false facts” seems to me to be a logical absurdity/oxymoron/non-sequitur.
I accept that “information” can be “spun” to come to any desired outcome, but then it is mere “information” not “fact.”
Hair-splitting? Maybe! But there are an awful lot of words that are used on this forum, and I try to be careful with my use of words and “facts.”
Technician // January 26, 2009 at 5:20 PM
@ Fool…
LOL !!
I dont see it as me back peddling as I am well aware of what I have posted before on this forum. Maybe I have deviated from the main intent at times due to other, external forces … :-) ..but as you say , maybe we can sit and and find some real-life solutions together, as long as you respect my opinion and I yours without trying to shove your beliefs down my throat or I yours.
Maybe we should consider inviting GP ( a man I respect ) to the sitting.
Respect.
ROK // January 26, 2009 at 6:11 PM
When will this stop? The Israelis are not descendants of the Hebrews or the Israelites or the Jews. What is this foolishness about Israelis being God’s people? Never was and more than likely, never will be.
ROK // January 26, 2009 at 6:13 PM
Dissident = correct
ROK // January 26, 2009 at 6:23 PM
Dissident
How can you speak of false facts? Let Carlos use English and speak about propaganda. There is no hair splitting here. “False facts” is a total absurdity. Rather than admit he made a mistake, he come with a bogus explanation.
This definition of propaganda aptly describes Carlos’ MO to the ‘T’:
“Propaganda is the dissemination of information aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
Fool // January 26, 2009 at 6:40 PM
Ok with me. We can live comfortably as neighbours. I have always done so in Barbados at my home. Opinions never hurt anyone, so let substantive talks begin.
Carlos // January 26, 2009 at 7:56 PM
ROK: I made NO mistake, I specifically used the term ‘false facts’, yes, logically, it is an absurdity.
BUT, because Arafat, the PLO and other Arabs over the last 60 years have vehemently used this ‘PROPAGANDA’ ploy in disseminating ‘LIES’ about Israel being the ‘aggressor’ and ‘occupier’ of their land, the clever use of ‘TURNSPEAK’ the mother of all ‘lies’ a cynical inverting, twisting, and corruption of ‘facts’ which they then presented as ‘facts’ misinformation believed by most, who bought into this mother of all LIES, as you correctly quoted:
“(thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to information presented. The desired result IS a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further political gain.”
Exactly SO, precisely SO, the intended purpose for which Arafat, et al., used ‘TURNSPEAK’ relentlessly, LIES, LIES, and more LIES, which has been accepted as ‘factual’ information, hence ‘false facts’ as to the person(s) who don’t know the truth, it is believed as facts, albiet FALSE FACTS!!!
Is this too hard to understand???
Straight talk // January 26, 2009 at 8:26 PM
Carloss;
At the risk of resorting to “turnspeak”
what land was ceded to Israel in 1948, and what land do they now “occupy”.
Carlos // January 26, 2009 at 8:36 PM
BTW, HOPI, as GEM of TKI so aptly encouraged and instructed Technician this morning:
“I would not indulge a flame war, but instead must remind you of the first RULE of HOLES – if you want to get out, STOP DIGGING in DEEPER.”
But then again, HOPI, you already seem to be over your ‘head’ in the HOLE!
ROK // January 26, 2009 at 8:44 PM
Carlos, you can’t deny the last part though:
“… encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.”
Straight talk // January 26, 2009 at 9:11 PM
Carloss:
You by hitching your wagon to the mega-troll Dictionary, aka Kairosfocus,
have fatally undermined all credibility.
This irritant hoping to produce pearls from a paui will never create or even come close to being a GEM of Te Kete Ipurangi.
Take a leaf out of BFP’s book, ignore the pest and plough your own furrow.
Technician // January 26, 2009 at 11:24 PM
Just to show his deception, Dictionary came on this blog with this handle rather than the well known Kairosfocus who we all know his agenda from BFP.
Talk about propaganda and turnspeak, then again…they are the masters of it.
The problem is…..we are NOT all SHEEPLE!!
@ Fool
Same here, I too live in relative comfort with my neighbors here in Barbados.
Ready when you are.
Hopi // January 27, 2009 at 12:17 AM
@CARLOSS….You’re, lies & cliches can’t stop me from digging that hole until the enemy of humanity is buried so deep that you can no longer suffer with ‘brown tongue.’
Not Saved // January 27, 2009 at 1:16 AM
The British Colonel was a “hired hand”
paid to do the interview
if you think about it, it makes sense
ex colonels are a dime a dozen
working now in PR
Carlos // January 27, 2009 at 1:56 AM
ROK: ‘Carlos, you can’t deny the last part though.’
Certainly, but not for the reason(s) you assume, as it expressly speak to the lying, ‘Turnspeak’ of the Arab terrorists agenda of utter deception, LIES!!
Straight Talk and Technician; NO, I will NOT take a leaft out of BFP’s book; but will leave you all to wallow and wade through the quagmire and labyrinth of deception, lies, and propaganda, masterful ‘Turnspeak.”
And to HOPI, its not your feet that’s deep in the HOLE of unspeakable deception, its your head that’s deep, deep down in the HOLE, with your feet firmly planted in ‘midair’ as the proverbial ostrich.
As The Lord Jesus Christ said:
“The lamp (light) of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. But, if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of DARKNESS. If therefore, the light that is you is DARKNESS, how great is that DARKNESS.” (Matt. 6:22) emphasis added.
To choice is yours to remain that way!
Technician // January 27, 2009 at 7:36 AM
Either Corloss’ ‘home sweet home’shade needs cleaning or his lamp needs some oil.
Fool // January 27, 2009 at 9:19 AM
Hi T, morning. There has been more fighting in Gaza, but it is army/army. Do you think it will expand inwards?
I would like to open a discussion by stating a core issue and asking whether it is possible: i.e the security of the Jewish people and Israel. The core issue is that Israel wants to be accepted and made safe from attack.
Before you react saying that Israel is an aggressor, take time to think about this, as it is a bare fact that must be understood. By working towards this issue I think that peace is possible, as was being done at Camp David in the year 2000.
Busy most of the rest of day.
Carlos // January 27, 2009 at 4:02 PM
BTW Technician & Straight Talk, I will not allow your vacuous, venomous ad hominen against GEM of TKI to go by unanswered.
First, the depth of your intellectual shallowness, and lack of perspicuity, is exceeded only by your willingness to reveal and continuously demonstrate it, in the face and teeth of the ‘facts’ so assiduously and tellingly presented by GEM of TKI, which simply cannot be soundly refuted by any willing, honest minded person; the proclivity of which you obviously just do not have!
It is a very sad state of affairs that is pervasive, not only in our homeland, but throughout the world, when people are presented and exposed to facts, that they are unable to perceive ‘Truth’ which by definition is absolute, regardless of who denies its reality.
GEM of TKI, is one of the most profound, intellectually astute thinkers one could come across in today’s world, which unfortunately is filled to the brim with a host of intellectually depraved people, both in the academic arena, as well as the unacademic.
It is a privilege for us in the Caribbean, to have been blessed with such an outstanding scholar; but, as God’s Word tells us.
“A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.” (Matt. 13:57b).
GEM of TKI’s vast knowledge, perception and understanding of this subject, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, among many other subjects as well, is from many, many long arduous, painstaking years of earnest, diligent, study and research, which is gladly received by others from around the world.
Therefore, when he speaks, it is done with cogent, valid, compelling, logical coherence, which anyone with a mere tiro of common sense would appreciate.
But, rather than be willing to learn and understand, you who are just novice in this subject matter, resort to utter diatribe, void of any substance; unable to offer any meaningful input, because, GEM of TKI’s submissions, which are only scratching the surface of information and facts, remain irrefragable; and you know this, hence your virulent attack on his person.
What a shame that you all are so inept and almost barren of comprehension of facts!
PRIDE, is a killer, for it prevents many from admitting what they know to so!
“To say of what is, that it is, or of what is not, that it is not , is true.”
(Aristotle, Metaphysics).
Technician // January 27, 2009 at 4:47 PM
……the depth of your intellectual shallowness……
————————————————–
Wow…..ammm…is this the same as ..’false facts’
GEM of TKI, is one of the most profound, intellectually astute thinkers one could come across in today’s world,………which unfortunately is filled to the brim with a host of intellectually depraved people, both in the academic arena, as well as the unacademic.
————————————————–
Now…if it is filled to the ‘brim’….then where does Gem of TKI fit in??
You need to stop copying and think for yourself sir…you are starting to look stupid, stop playing with words and keep it simple…no need to try to impress the masses.
If both of you are so well versed on the issue, get off the blogs and go change the world.
Reading this post, it seems as though, because of the unfavorable response of others, myself included, we are to be dismissed as …..almost barren of comprehension of facts!
And you want to lecture people about PRIDE???
Look……tek up ya ball and go home yah!!
Bun fire pun you!!!
Straight talk // January 27, 2009 at 7:18 PM
I really do believe that Carloss is indeed the infamous Zionist shill Kairosfocus aka Dictionary.
I have nothing against Zionists apart from their fundamentalist murderous agenda.
When they feel less threatened, they can join the real world and we will talk.
Carloss ,I don’t know where you came from , but it sure ain’t Bim.
Your empty justifications for terrorism seem to pop up from nowhere each time the IDF expands its theatre of operation.
Come clean to us bro’. where do you live, and who is paying you for monitoring this blog?
Not Saved // January 27, 2009 at 7:32 PM
Carlos etc,
Answer the real questions :
what were the milatary objectives of the incursion?
what was the risk of civilian casualties?
was the risk proportionate to the objectives?
were the objectives achieved?
what was the actual civilian loss?
was the civilian loss proportionate to actual objectives achieved?
It is a WAR CRIME to RISK civilian lives disproportionate to the military objectives.
And no point crying “human shields”. It is a war crime to kill the “shields” when they are forced to act as such and you and I know very well that there is no choice under Hamas.
Now you can answer the relevant questions or give us another diatribe about land rights and the Arabs genocidal intentions (and then pat yourself on the back for it)
A war crime is a war crime no matter who carries it out, and no matter if the other side carries out war crimes
You belong to the George Bush school of diplomacy. Anyone challenge the policies of the Israeli government and you call them anti semitic or pro Arab. Your logic is poor.
Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself but if it carries our war crimes, it also can expect to be condemned.
Not Saved // January 27, 2009 at 8:01 PM
It is very amusing to watch christians who have been for over a thousand years proponents of the most virulent anti semitism, come in here and defend the every action of Israeli government.
when you world is deluded by bronze age writings nothing should surprise
Carlos // January 27, 2009 at 8:42 PM
Straight Talk:
“….I don’t know where you came from, but it sure ain’t Bim.”
“Come clean to us bro’ – where do you live, and who is paying you for monitoring this blog?”
ST, I detest deception, liars, and intellectually dishonest people!
Now, to your questions:
I AM A BORN and absolutely bred and raised Bajan, from day of birth.
I have my family tree, dating from the early 1640’s right here in Bim!
NO ONE is paying me for supposedly monitoring this blog!
I am not for sale, period!
It is my labour of love, which I thank Almighty God, and my Saviour and Lord; The Lord Jesus Christ for!
Carlos // January 27, 2009 at 8:56 PM
NOT SAVED:
Nothing that you say surprises me; as you are not only, ‘NOT SAVED’ but also appear to be hopelessly lost!
Not Saved and Lost // January 27, 2009 at 9:06 PM
Yet again I shall quote from a Jewish source,
Not Saved and Lost // January 27, 2009 at 9:07 PM
still no answers from Carlos
Technician // January 27, 2009 at 10:26 PM
Carlos…….stop the schoolboy, spoiled child whining now….you sound stupid.
When you started you were full of arrogance and had a dismissive attitude, now you are sulking?
Get a life and move on man..geeez!!
You can fool some of the people some of the time……..BUT…….you cant fool all the people all the time !!
Fool // January 27, 2009 at 11:21 PM
T, I have made a comment directed to you above, you have done nothing substantive yourself. Unless farting out abusive comments at Carlos can be so descibed. You get on here calling people stupid, spoiled and lots of names. I wonder whether there is someone else around who is a bit more mature to talk to.
Your coments above are inconsequential, unsubstantive, and you trample pearls into the dirt.
Are you “Chase” revamped?
Get with the program!
Galli Cantu // January 28, 2009 at 12:08 AM
Whiel we were busy discussing the Israel /Gaza issue, look what our African bros ,been up to.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/horrific-allegations-heard-as-case-against-congolese-rebel-begins-in-the-hague-14157904.html
ROK // January 28, 2009 at 12:52 AM
@Carlos
“I have my family tree, dating from the early 1640’s right here in Bim!”
How unique? How many Barbadians can claim that. Which boat did your ancestors come on? The boat with the Jews?
Hopi // January 28, 2009 at 1:05 AM
@Galli Cantu…….I know that these weapons are not made in the Congo. Who took em there. I’ll guarantee you that there’s an UNSEEN hand or a master manipulator working behind the scene. I’m looking forward to the day when that continent wakes up and realise that they have ONE common enemy and he does not look like them. Maybe he looks more like YOU. Will the day ever come when the zionists pigs are brought to the Hague or any other court for the decimation of human life in Palestine as well as in Africa? What about the 100s of 1000s of children that go missing every year in the western world esp the US. They are never accounted for. Where do they all go? Why don’t you look into that too and the 1st place you can start looking is at the so-called ELITE those with the illusion of power in this world.
Fool // January 28, 2009 at 9:33 AM
Everything bad is the Jews. They are white people and you are special. You brand us as coloists and racists, but in fact it is you. Don’t mind how hard you try we are Semites and we have a line that goes back to Judah. Many of your group too. How did that happen?
You’re insane.
Not Saved // January 28, 2009 at 12:44 PM
still no answers
Carlos // January 28, 2009 at 1:49 PM
For the benefit of those observers who are interested in the facts, NOT propaganda lies; here are some FACTS on Hamas and their stated agenda vis-a-vis Israel, right from their very own ‘Charter.’
The Hamas Charter (1988).
The front cover of The Hamas charter, printed in Qalqilya in 2004. It shows Aheikh Ahmad Yassin, who gave their charter its final form.
Overview.
“On January 25, 2006, the day Palestinian Legislative Council elections were held, Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar, senior Hamas leader in the Gaza Strip and candidate for the post of foreign minister, stated that Hamas was committed to the ideology of its 1988 charter. He noted emphatically that “the movement [would] NOT change a SINGLE WORD in its charter,” which CALLS FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL, and would not become a purely political movement, but quite the opposite, it would continue ots policy of ‘resistance” (i.e., terrorist attacks) (reuters, Gaza, January 25).
(Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Center for Special Studies (C.S.S).
“The Hamas charter referred to by Mahamoud al-Zahar was formulated during the first year of the previous round of violent Israeli-Palestinian confrontations (1987-1993). It was edited and approved by Ahmad Yassin, the movement’s founder and leader (who died in a targeted killing in March 2004), and issued on August 19, 1988. It is Hamas’s MOST IMPORTANT IDEOLOGICAL DOCUMENT and as of this writing, copies continue to be circulated in the Palestinian Authority-administered territories. It makes extensive use of Islamic sources (the Qur’an and hadith) to assure its religious Islamic basis.”
The main points of the Hamas charter:
“The conflict with Israel is religious and political.”
“All Palestine is Muslim land and NO ONE has the right to give it up: The land of Palestine is sacred Muslim land and NO ONE, including Arab rulers, has the authority to give up any of it.”
“The importance of JIHAD (holy war) as tne means for Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) to achieve its goals. An uncompromising JIHAD MUST be waged against Israel and any agreement recognizing its rights to exist MUST BE TOTALLY OPPOSED. Jihad is the personal duty of every Muslim.”
“The importance of fostering the Islamic consciousness: Must effort be invested fostering and spreading Islamic consciousness by means of education [i.e., religious-political indoctrination] in the spirit of radical Islam, based on the ideology of the Muslim brotherhood.” (Ibid., p 30).
Hamas’ sole intention, as plainly stated in its official ‘charter’ IS THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.
The extent to which they have sought to achieve this, so far, IS to persecute and terrorize Israel and its people however and whenever it is possible, and they will use as they have on many, many occasions, SUICIDE BOMBERS, killing innocent civilians anywhere in Iraseli territory.
An example of their sinister, wicked, evil agenda against Jews, is highlighted in:
“The Hamas charter frontpiece, 2004, Qalqilya edition.’
The inscription reads: “The star shaheed [team] of the [Izzedine] al-Qassam Battalions of the Qaiqilya district”
A picture of 12 of the young Palestinian Jihadists is below the headline, specifically identifying at the top of the picture, the names of ‘Sucide bomber Sa’id Hutri, who BLEW himseld up at the Dolphinarium Club in Tel Aviv, killing 21 teenagers.
To his extreme right is a picture of “Abd al-Rahman Hammad, head of the terrorist-operative infrastructure in Qalqilya, who planned and organised the attack.” (Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Center for Special Studies (C.S.S) (p.4).
Unless people understand the hatred, and INTENT of Hamas, Hezbollah, who are arms of the ‘Muslim Brotherhood’ founded in Egypt, and their religiously based agenda, to exert world dominance over ALL nations, beginning with the DESTRUCTION and ANNIHILATION of the state of Israel and ALL Jews; one will never be able to truly grasp this conflict, and why Israel HAS no choice but to defend her sovereign right to statehood; which they, Hamas, et al., vehemently resist, and deny Israel’s right to.
Now, this often repeated rhetoric of Israel using ‘disproportionate’ military force against Hamas, is never understood in the context of what Hamas has already done over the years of ‘terrorist’ activity against Israel and her people.
Yes, between 1,100 and 1,200 people were killed in Israel’s three-week Gaza offensive, 700 terrorist and 250 civilians.
But, what is NEVER reported or looked at, is the FACT, that Israeli casualties from Palestinian ‘terrorism’ over the past decade or so, are, 842 [ISRAELI) Civilians, and 325 [ISRAELI] soldiers had been killed, a total of 1, 167 fatalities, these are the FACTS, “So where is THE DISPROPORTION” as Israeli Presedent Shimon Peres pointed out on Monday , lashing out at those who decry the so-called disproportionate Palestinian casuality ratio in Operation Cast Lead.
Talk about ‘turnspeak’ by Hamas and the terrorist aggression against Israel over the years; WHY does the media, here and elsewher, FAIL in giving a balance coverage of the FACTS as there are?
Carlos // January 28, 2009 at 2:41 PM
A bit more FACTUAL information on the ‘truth’ on how Hamas operates within Gaza, which Israeli aerial intelligence photographs gathered over many months, before the conflict began, revealing the full extent to which Hamas and other terrorist organizations EXPLOIT the CIVILIAN population as human shields.
“Reports from the battlefield showed that frequently, the terrorist fought against the IDF forces FROM WITHIN civilian institutions, mosques and residential dwellings. The sites were used for launching rockets, as posts and military positions. Many oublic institutions and buildings served as weapons storehouses, and many buildings and roads were booby-trapped with IEDs and mines.”
“The photographs show how Hamas turned ENTIRE CIVILIAN NEIGHBORHOODS, in cluding houses, mosques, schools, hospitals and UN facilities, into quasi-military compounds from which it waged combat against the IDF. By doing so Hamas made it difficult for the IDF to operate, and inevitably caused loss of life and property damage to innocent civilians.”
“The densely-populated Tel al-Zaatar neighborhood is located in the Northern Gaza Strip. It is home to a number of schools and mosques, a medical center and several UN facilities.”
“The aerial photograph shows that Hamas situated its military bases and training camps near schools, and the Al-Fakhura medical center. It also shows that some parts of the neighborhood were mined and that tunnels were dug mearby. In addition, it is marked with the LAUNCHING sites set up INSIDE the neighborhood from which ROCKETS were fired into Israel.”
“Jabaliya is a village and Palestinian camp in the nothern Gaza Strip. The Palestinian terrorist organizations used the region to LAUNCH rockets into Israel before Operation Cast Lead.”
“The aerial photograph shows that Hamas situated many of its military facilities in Jabaliya, including a post and firing range. Tunnels were dug between civilian houses and exposed areas were mined. Many places in Jabaliya served as rocket launching sites both before and during Operation Cast Lead, including places close to mosques and UNRWA schools.”
“The densely-populated area of Gaza city was also turned into a military compund by Hamas. The refugee camp borders on the sea and is home to 80,567 Palestinians. It has a number of schools and mosques, near which terrorist activities were carried out. The aerial photograph shows thar Hamas established a military camp and training camps INSIDE the refugee camp. Some of the bases are near schools. Hama turned ALMOST ALL of theb local shore into a military zone. Rockets were launched from the Sha’ati refugee camp into Israei territory, in prozimity to public buildings.”
(Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center, IICC).
Hamas and its evil intention, don’t care a hoot about the civilian population of Gaza, they will use ANYONE as a human shield to further their cause against Israel, children, old people, hospitals, UN facilities, it makes NO difference to them, as they ARE TERRORIST, and there is NOTHING or no human life that they will not EXPLOIT for their evil intent, to destroy Israel.
Propaganda and ‘turnspeak’ is repeatedly then used, and the world media takes it all in, LIES,LIES, and more LIES!
Carlos // January 28, 2009 at 2:57 PM
NOT SAVED:
You cannot answer the DUMB, DEAF and BLIND!
Not Saved // January 28, 2009 at 3:33 PM
and you cant answer me either
Straight talk // January 28, 2009 at 3:44 PM
Carlos
Turnspeak example; your above quote within quotation marks -
“resistance (i.e. terrorism).”
Will you place your reputation for accurate reporting of facts on the accuracy of that quote attributed to Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar?
Anonymous // January 28, 2009 at 3:52 PM
@ Fool…
Sorry to disappoint you (sincerely) but I deal with people as they deal with me.
You came on this blog and I responded to you in the same manner you dealt with me. Carlos came with his dismissive and arrogant attitude, therefore from me he will get the same.
GP was on and he has my respect, so do you.
If you are not happy then, as you have said, I am sure you can find someone more mature to discus with.
Respect goes both ways. Dont think for one minute that you can demand it from me.
Again, sorry to dissapoint.
Technician // January 28, 2009 at 3:55 PM
Sorry…..my post above.
Carlos // January 28, 2009 at 8:53 PM
Straight Talk:
You said; ‘Turnspeak example; your above quote within quotations marks- “resistence (i.e., terrorism),”
“Will you place your reputation for accurate reporting of facts on the accuracy of that quote attributed to Dr. Mahamoud al Zahar?”
First, you ‘erroneously’ misquoted what I wrote in my earlier thread of today, you must pay careful attention to detail, and NOT misquote what I posted, as you have me as using quotation marks, “resistence (i.e., terrorism).” This is most certainly NOT what I wrote, go an re-read exactly what I said, and STOP twisting the text, as I only used quotations marks around “resistence” NOT (i.e., terrorist attacks) .
The obvious use of bracketing (i.e., terrorist attacks) by the source from which I quoted is straightforward, as Hamas’ charter’ intent as clearly executed over the last decade or so, is to use ‘Terrorist attacks” which they have continuously done killing hundreds of Israeli civilians as well as military personnel.
So, you CANNOT erroneously ‘misquote’ my ‘quotation’ by your indiscriminate interjection of ‘quotation’ marks, where I NEVER used them, and then challege my integrity, you must be more careful next time!
Dictionary // January 29, 2009 at 6:12 AM
Onlookers:
A few final remarks are in order; the discussion having long since been decided on the merits.
(Just observe that to date, the facts and issues introduced from Saturday on by the undersigned, have not been cogently addressed by those who had hitherto been venting much spleen all over Jews and Christians. [BTW, BU, the problems highlighted by this thread speak to he need for a proper editorial policy on basic civility. Or, should I use a regional word: "broughtupcy."])
Now, the above flood of ad hominems — and outright slanders in at least one case [FYI: "lies" must needs be false to fact, T] — on the part of those spewing the post-colonialist, anti Semitic [Zionism is the nationalism of Judaism and is supported by the majority of Jews] is a classic example of what is increasingly wrong in our region and civilisation.
And that, in the face of MORTAL DANGER.
So, let us first expose an increasingly standard manipulative rhetorician’s trick when he — almost always it is a “he” — has not got the balance of the case on the material facts:
1 –> Drag a red herring distractor that leads away from the track of truth.
[Observe that the issues of the clash between the 1919 world order of nation states and the islamIST global conquest intent have been distracted from, including in the Caribbean; thanks to Dr Sultana Afroz of UWI History Dept Mona, they have been pointed in our direction too, not just Israel or Spain. Not to mention the import of the 1919 London agreement between representatives of the Jewish and Arab nations for joint development of their common regional home, and the Zionist submission to the Versailles conference. (But the inconvenient truth does not fit with the post colonialist "western Imperialism and racism" narrative . . . so, it must not be attended to.)]
2 –> Lead out to strawmen caricatures, suitably soaked in oil of ad hominem, then ignite spectacularly.
[Notice how half truth cases were trotted out to try to displace the facts presented on original historical documents and knowledge of what Dr Sultana Afroz has been doing in our region for about 15 - 20 years [until Prof Maureen Warner-Lewis of UWI Literature Dept shredded her assertions in a now famous Gleaner rebuttal; just Google . . .]. In particular, the easily shown/ accessed fact that ALL citizens of Israel have equal rights before the law was twisted into the accusation that this was a lie. Then, when I showed that this and a subsequent case was based on biased half truth — without justification — I have been called a liar, by one who resorted to outright vulgarities to do so. Carlos has been subjected to an inquisition as to whether he is a genuine Bajan. But, where one is born has little or nothing to do with whether one is speaking the material truth. the material issues he has raised, are then conveniently ignored. ]
3 –> Thus, poison and cloud the atmosphere for discussion, creating animosity and confusion.
[Observe the steadily deteriorating tone in the thread on the post-colonialist narrative side, and the associated lack of responsible engagement of evident or accessible facts. For instance, has anyone taken time to find out just who Dr Sultana Afroz is, and what she has been publishing in CQ etc; which has inter alia come out onward in feature articles in the Bajan popular press as if it were established truth? And, to what effect? Much less, what is the significance of the Versailles 1919 principle of self determination of people groups and the involvement of ME peoples in that process? Or, the implications of the fact that there were TWO linked and comparably sized ME refugee crises centring on the UN-sponsored independence of Israel and opportunity to have an equally independent Arab state, and the invasion on declared intent to commit genocide of Jews? (Hint: the refugee Jews and their descendants are the majority of Israel's Jewish population, i.e the capstone legitimacy of Israel is as a state of refuge for these victims of persecution in long settled homelands all across the ME.) Similarly, as Carlos has pointed out, the balance of casualties across a decade in which there should have been peace per the Dennis Ross 2000 compromise shows that accusations of "disproportion" have been less than a true and fair view of the situation. not to mention, that the evidence of Hamas' intent of genocide, its attacking civilians across the better part of a decade and the use of civilians as human shields clearly remove it from the list of legitimate governments, much less combattants. I do correct, Carlos: in addition to 750 *identified* Hamas militant casualties, another 200 of mostly young men in their 20s, is probably further such militants. In short, while war is a horror and a foretaste of a place we would be wise to shun not least because innocents die in disturbing numbers -- and in this case, deliberately so as an illegitimate combattant uses innocents as shields -- it is plain that the extraordinary steps taken by Israel to minimise civilian deaths (as noted by the cited British Colonel) seem to have worked to a significant extent. (And recall, an underlying factor in this is that the range of the Iranian-supplied rockets is now reaching the neighbourhood of the Dimona nuclear centre, so war to block what would provoke a nuke confrontation is a lesser of evils. Such is ever the horrible calculus of war: bad vs worse.)]
4 –> Escape accountability behind the cloud of animosity and confusion (claiming “victory” if you can get away with it).
[Observe the vulgarity-laced refusal to be accountable over uncivil conduct on the part of a certain post-colonialist narrative advocate. Note the linked pretense that simply by pouring vitriol over what they disagree with, the post-colonialist narrative advocates claim to have established their case and can dismiss entire peoples and religions in contemptuous terms. In one word: SHAMELESS. (Contrast how those the anti-Zionists/ anti-Semites and anti-Christians despise have by and large addressed the matter on the merits of evident or accessible facts and reason tied to those facts.) ]
____________
So, onlookers, the choice of which path to take — of which way of argument to approve of — of which substantial conclusion to accept — is yours.
Just, understand that our region and civilisation face mortal peril at the hands of the third major global conquest ideology to rise up in a Century: IslamISM.
If you doubt me on that, why not simply check up the facts? (Start with the Hamas Charter and the Muslim Brotherhood 1982 100 year global plan. I will give links in a follow up brief comment.)
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // January 29, 2009 at 7:42 AM
PS: On some initial check-up links:
1] The Hamas Charter may be a good place to begin to find a few facts on just what hamas stands for adn why it has acted as it has:
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_charter.pdf
–> Cf here on human shields:
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_e049.pdf
–> Article 7, pp. 15 – 16 cites the genocide of jews hadith, and there is much antisemit5ic ranting, including citation of the Protocol of the Elders of Zion, a Czarist Russian anti-Jewish fraud.
–> On direct relevance to us, I point to art 11 p. 17 and 12 p 18, which say that once “Muslim” land — and the legitimacy of other claimants as in Israel and Spain is thus not recognised, and compromise is rejected on religious grounds — has been reconquered it is an INDIVIDUAL obligation of all Muslims to attack.
–> Multiply by what Dr Afroz has claimed for us in the cCaribbean and connectt he dots. [BTW, Prof Warner-Lewis' rebuttal is here: http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20021020/focus/focus3.html ]
–> In short, this is not just something 1,00’s of miles away: similar (yes, tendentious, but that does not faze ideologues) claims point at our region.
–> And BTW, Hezbollah (a related, albeit Shiite group) has bases as near as Venezuela.
–> Post-colonialist narrative advocates should reflect carefully on the implications of resemblances between their arguments and those of Hamas.
2] The parent organisation, the MB, has a world plan:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={61829F93-7A81-4654-A2E8-F0A5E6DD3DC4}
3] the way some Islamists hope to rewrite the world map across this century is illuminating:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14952&only
[NB: I saw and personally archived the map at its original site when it was live on the net. It was taken down some time after 9/11; similar to data on how to make nukes I looked at on 9/11 itself, when at my workplace the discussion turned to suitcase nukes. Despite some attempted dismissals, the world conquest map is for real.]
4] For the resulting dhimmitude under Q 9:5 and 29, cf:
http://www.dhimmitude.org/
5] Mideast web is a useful general source with an irenic disposition:
http://www.mideastweb.org/
6] On Myths vs Facts issues, a place to look at for balances to the dominant post-colonialist narrative is:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/myths2006.pdf
7] Some are tempted to deride Christians as well. I therefore point to:
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html
http://www.rzim.org/USA/home.aspx
http://irrationalatheist.com/files/TheIrrationalAtheist.pdf
http://www.carm.org/index.html
. . . for starters.
GEM of TKI
PS: Thanks in advance for posting these links.
Technician // January 29, 2009 at 8:59 AM
Just, understand that our region and civilisation face mortal peril at the hands of the third major global conquest ideology to rise up in a Century: IslamISM.
OMG….Finally you come out and say (at long last) what you were really sidetepping around.
After all the fancy words and all rhetoric..it is plain to see now…..OMG !!
Anonymous // January 29, 2009 at 9:10 AM
Is Islamism the same thing as Islam (i.e in accordance with the teachings of the Prophet)?
Anonymous // January 29, 2009 at 9:47 AM
It takes a Jew to tell the (ignorant of the facts) people (like Straight Talk) that there is a difference between Jihadists and Islamists; that there is a difference between Zionists (of which I am one) and fundamentalist religious Zionists.
You shreiking Mr. T, because now the hurt is on your family. I have watched people all through this thread write and educate Bajans as to how murderous I am, a Zionist, where my only fault being a Zionist is believing in the existence of the State of Israel is the important thing to Jews. I saw the racism written at BU and the political victimisation come upon me when I called those people on there lies.
While you laughed and wrote derogatory comments.
I hope today you and those reading will walk a mile in my shoes, as I have done in yours.
I made an overture above to discuss how a peace treaty could be created between Israel and the Pro-Palestinians to create their country, saying
I would like to open a discussion by stating a core issue and asking whether it is possible: i.e the security of the Jewish people and Israel. The core issue is that Israel wants to be accepted and made safe from attack.
You made no substantive response which is what annoyed me. I have putatively created your country but you have not responded to my overtures.
Well you know that Jihadists like Hamas and some in places like Iran, Saudi; educate and work towards the destruction of Israel, and there is a war going on after the Jews were forcibly taken out of Gaza by their own people. Well you know that Jihadism is fast becoming accepted and acceptable by Islam, and that is where the danger to the rest of the world is concerning this scary part of Islam.
I don’t like to blog here, I do it because I see that there are Bajans teaching Bajans to hate my race on this blog, which is reprehensible.
I saw it with the Guyanese, I saw it against homosexuals. I saw it as political by BU and continue to see it that way.
Read my reiteration above and work with me because *at the end of the day* it will be a peace treaty between the parties concerned; many, but not all of whom, are Jews and Muslims.
Peace to all and peace to Jerusalem.
Anonymous // January 29, 2009 at 9:47 AM
Fool
Carlos // January 29, 2009 at 11:17 AM
Technician:
There are none so blind as those who REFUSE to see. You are quickly approaching this sordid state, if in fact you are not already there!
Hopi // January 29, 2009 at 10:22 PM
@Anonymous…….You are a damn LIAR. What is the difference between a zionist ‘of which I am one’ and a fundamentalist religious zionist? Peace to Jerusalem one of the biggest drug and human trafficking,diamond smuggling centres in this world!
JC // January 29, 2009 at 10:47 PM
Ha ha ha ha I fail to see the holiness of this war. Lets talk about Zimbabwe and Darfur!
It amazes me that as soon as you have a difference of opinion you are scarred with names such as Xenophobia, racist, zionist and all kinds of crap because GOD/ALLAH/SELASSIE I gave us a brain and we have decided to think for a change!
Newsflash willie lynch days are over this is CRAP (ace no pun intended) sigh!
Anonymous // January 30, 2009 at 9:26 AM
What 2 are writing above is commonly referred to as “Jew-baiting”. Another reprehensible tactic that many racists enjoy using.
Before Israel in 1948 people used to do this to try to get *the Jew* to act, thereby exposing him/herself, after which they would be identified for whatever treatment was deemed to be appropriate. It happened right up until the 60s in the US, when civil rights came along.
This slimy tactic is here at BU today, and I’m calling you guys on it. You’re sick, and this forum gives you an excellent output vent.
Above: “All things bad are because of Jews. Jews are white people. White is bad. My decisions are holy and ordained by…… (as above)”.
Rubbish.
Again, there is no substantive contribution is made above, only the simple expressions of hatred. Hatred of Jews.
People above: You must justify where I am lying, and how my entire life has been so misguided, so misguided right here in Barbados.
Tell me now *those above*, how has my life in Barbados been hateful and spiteful? Tell me where I have been usurious and wicked towards my fellow citizens? Tell where have I scarred Barbados?
Or *enriched* it, by my little Jewboy life?
It is Peace, insane ones, it is PEACE we are talking about.
But make no mistake, peace in the Middle East doesn’t come to pansies and apologists; or appeasers. You may hate Israel, but you can’t destroy it.
Shimon Peres: ‘You want peace, we want peace. You want an end to terror, we want an end to terror.’ Think about that.
Fool.
Anonymous // January 30, 2009 at 9:34 AM
But make no mistake, peace in the Middle East doesn’t come to pansies and apologists; or appeasers. You may hate Palestine, but you can’t destroy it.
Think about that.
Fool // January 30, 2009 at 10:55 AM
I do.
Dictionary // February 3, 2009 at 3:55 AM
Last words:
I see T pretending that IslamISM — which I have repeatedly, and carefully distinguished from Islam (considered as a religiously motivated worldview with associated personal and community level religious practices) and ordinary Muslims — is not a world conquest ideology.
He thus further underscores his own sad want of credibility and refusal to do basic homework.
Onlookers, if you want to know the truth about IslamISM (and linked jihadISM), simply check up the links I gave above, including not only what Hamas has to say, but also that C21 world conquest map and the MB global plan. [Hamas, by its charter, is the Palestinian branch of MB.]
Maybe this excerpt from Hassan Butt [which appeared in the UK Guardian July 1, 2007], a former Jihadist — now recanted, will help us understand what is really going on:
>>When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network . . . we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy . . . .
[T]hey also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: [my nb: the IslamIST approach to] Islamic theology.
. . . . though many British extremists are angered by the deaths of fellow Muslim across the world, what drove me and many others to plot acts of extreme terror within Britain and abroad was a sense that we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary worldwide Islamic state that would dispense Islamic justice . . . .
[For instance] I was taught . . . this reclassification of the globe as a Land of War . . . . In Dar ul-Harb, anything goes, including the treachery and cowardice of attacking civilians [cf. the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks as instances] . . .>>
That is right from the horse’s mouth: >>we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary worldwide Islamic state . . . >>
and in that cause . . .
>>In Dar ul-Harb [the house of the sword, i.e. war], anything goes, including the treachery and cowardice of attacking civilians . . . >>
Most people thought Hitler was not serious, and many thought the communists were not serious too. Ask the ghosts of their cumulative coming on 200 million victims across C20, whether they were serious or not.
Look again at what happened at 9/11 and 7/7, then ask yourself again, if the Jihadists are serious?
Then, reflect on the Afroz teachings about the Islamic — note my difference here — claims against the Caribbean. Compare those with the claims against not only Israel, Spain and Eastern Europe from the Balkans to the gates of Vienna, but the Copts of Egypt, the Dinkas of Sudan, the Christians of Nigeria, and those of Indonesia. Ask yourself, how such Islamic claims will look in IslamIST eyes, and how they will therefore work out in JihadIST plans and deeds, if things continue as they are trending.
Then, look up the well documented history of dhimmitude under sharia, reflective of the mandate in Q 9:29 and the pact of Umar.
Investigate the resulting apartheid-like discrimination against women and non-muslims that has in some cases endured for over 1,000 years now. (So much for the myth of tolerance and peaceful, joyful, just coexistence.)
Then, ask yourself: will we learn from history by acting on it in good time, or will we relive its worst chapters, yet once again?
The choice, onlookers, is yours.
GEM of TKI
Technician // February 3, 2009 at 8:02 AM
Then, ask yourself: will we learn from history by acting on it in good time, or will we relive its worst chapters, yet once again?
The choice, onlookers, is yours.
Why worry???
This is your prophecy being fulfilled, you should be happy and rejoicing!!
Rev. Dr. Dick Hertz // February 3, 2009 at 9:12 AM
Touchdown Technician! If we have free will then how can there be prophecy? According to the theologians, the dice is loaded so no matter what we do the outcome is already determined (how else could there be prophecy?).
However if we do have free will then the outcome is uncertain to even god and what kind of god is that? A no-god?
Come on Carlos, Gem of TKI and others help us out here. Is it no free will so it’s all God’s doing (the good, the bad and the ugly) and we are just pawns or maybe no-god and we are on our own?
Carlos // February 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM
Rev. Dr. Dick Hertz; says, “However if we do have free will then the out come is uncertain to even God and what kind of God is that? …Is it no free will so it’s all God’s doing ( the good, the bad and the ugly) and we are just pawns or maybe no-god and we are on our own?”
The greatest gift Almighty God gave to mankind, apart from the ‘Gift of Enternal Life’ through Jesus Christ, is ‘FREE WILL’ volitional free will, to choose one way or the other; for truly, this is a loving, merciful, Omniscient, Almighty Creator of us all.
IF, we were not given ‘free will’ then we would be ‘robots’ automatons, which is most certainly NOT what we are.
Almighty God in His Omniscience, that is, ‘ALL’ knowing, the begining from the end, He knows what we are going to think and do before we even ‘think’ the thought, let alone execute it into action; this is why He can, and has Divinely Inspired in His ‘Word’ the Bible, the prophetic unfolding of ALL things, BUT, this in no way, takes away from our ‘Free will’ to choose which side we’ll be on; is too hard to comprehend?
For, He knows who will choose which destiny, ‘Life’ or ‘Death’ Heaven or Hell, BUT, He does NOT interfere with our Free Will, as emphatically revealed and recorded in Genesis; for He gave Adam a ‘choice’ either ‘Life’ or ‘Death’ but DID not impose Himself on Adam, the CHOICE was Adam’s, and he choose to ‘disobey’ the consequence of which WAS death, first ’spiritual’ death, which means, ’separation’ from, or to separate, for Adam now found himself with his wife ‘Eve’ alienated, estranged from God’s presence, NO fellowship with his Creator, WHICH Adam volitionally CHOOSE, and now experienced the first ‘death’ lost of spiritual relationship with Almighty God, which was passed on to ALL human beings thereafter.
That’s why you DO not have to teach a ‘child’ how to be selfish, or unkind, or to be rude, or to be angry, etc., etc., for ALL those things are inherent in its SINFUL nature, from the moment of conception, we ALL come into this world from birth, as SINNERS, we DO not become SINNERS because we SIN, we SIN because we are SINNERS.
Some of us choose to listen and obey, other CHOOSE to disobey; the choice is ours to make.
Dictionary // February 3, 2009 at 10:36 AM
PS: I will provide some documentation on the jihad – dhimmitude issue, as a point of corrective reference to those inclined to promulgate or believe the myth of real equality and justice under Sharia rule:
1 –> An interview with Bat Ye’or [the leading scholar who has documented the problem of Apartheid-like dhimmitude]:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/1998/sepoct/8b5038.html
2 –> Her 2002 Brown University C.V. Starr Foundation Lecture, which provides meatier details and academic documentation [NB: she has written several major academic books on the subject, one that we in the Caribbean, unhappily, now have to make our acquaintance with]:
http://www.dhimmitude.org/archive/by_lecture_10oct2002.htm
________
PPS: I see an attempt to again go out on yet another red herring track; in a context where T again ignores or refuses to acknowledge his duty of apology and amending of ways for uncivil, atmosphere-poisoning slander and vulgarity.
On that, I simply note that God, in the Judaeo-Christian frame — and even that of enlightened pagans — “him in whom we live, move and have our being.” [Paul here cites Cleanthes in Ac 17.]
So, God is present every-where and every-when: the future to us is not veiled to him. So, he can tell us what is future to us, simply by observing it; i.e T’s Kismet [he sounds ever-more like one waging the Jihad of pen and tongue . . . or else as a dhimmi taken in by that jihad by rhetorical manipulation of the ill-informed] is simply irrelevant.
And, the good Rev’d Doctor just above would be well advised to remind himself of Jeremiah 18, which shows that Yaweh’s prophecies on the fates of the nations are all implicitly conditional, e.g.:
>> Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. >>
So, a nation is not irrevocably consigned to blessing or destruction, but STUBBORN INSISTENCE ON SINFUL FOLLY WILL REMOVE BLESSINGS AND LEAD TO DESTRUCTION.
Indeed, that is just what the Word of The Potter’s House [which BTW is a hermeneutical key to understanding prophecies, and is not irrelevant to say Wolfhart Pannenberg's very interesting discussion on conditional elements in the covenantal election of peoples under God] went on to say:
>> 11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’>>
In short, prophecies are in part given by way of warning, so that nations may turn from destruction. As, the whole Book of Jonah records in the case of an ENEMY of God’s covenantal people of Israel. (The exchange God has with Jonah in Ch 4:1 – 10 is a classic on this, crf http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah%204;&version=31; )
But, alas, israel in Jeremiah’s day would not listen tot he warnings of the weeping prophet, and even sought to kill him. Here is God’s further complaint:
>>Jer 18: 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ ” >>
Obviously, God disagrees with such excuses for persisting in the march of folly!
And so, oh Caribbean: will we turn back from folly before it is too late?
Indeed, here is the blessing of the nations that receive the Seed of Abraham, the answer to all curses, real or imagined:
>> Gal 3:3Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. [The Spirit of God, who draws us to God, liberates us in him, empowers us and opens the Word of God to us, is the gateway to all blessings in God.]>>
The choice, oh Caribbean, is ours.
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // February 3, 2009 at 10:41 AM
PPPS: I have noted on links on dhimmitude, and have remarked on the free will vs march of folly by referring to Jer 18. In mod pile, so kindly be patient.
Rev Dr. Dick Hertz // February 3, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Carlos and Gem
I have enormous difficulty with the concept of free will and a God that knows what I’m going to do even before I do it! How free am I if my options have been predetermined? Gem of TKI presents a more interesting position. Prophecy being a logical predicted result of certain actions. We can all predict future outcomes with a relatively high success rate but not with a perfect record (which would be a god’s domain!) Shades of Gem’s first love (quantum mechanics) maybe?
Dictionary // February 3, 2009 at 3:01 PM
Okay:
I was babysitting a printer, and came by. I will entertain Dr Hertz just a bit. (This will give time for those needing to read up on dhimmitude and related issues.)
Dr Hertz, if one sits at the N pole, s/he is simultaneously N. of ALL points along the surface of the Earth.
Take that as an analogy of how God can be at “time’s N Pole.” So, the future is the future to US, not to Him: he instantly accesses every-where and every-when. In that context, he has made a world in which we may have minds for ourselves — as is our direct and immediate experience [and without which coherence of mind itself collapses -- without real choice, we cannot make LOGICAL choices (and that focus on choice is the wisdom in the Gk root for LOGOS)].
So, it makes empirical and logical sense to accept choice as real, not the mere product of chance and/or necessity of inexorable force acting on preset initial conditions and rolling out predictably a la P S Laplace’s master mechanician Demon.
But at the same time, actions do have consequences: once I hit key S, a chain of onward effects will play out sometimes traceably, sometimes untraceably, but observably.
And in a world with a moral order, moral actions have consequences, including predictable ones. Some of them by how our choices, resentments and rages shape our behaviour, and the general results that are likely to emerge therefrom, which in turn has physical and social consequences. E.g. hubris is its own worst enemy. ignorance that imagines it knows and can dismiss contrary facts as “lies” is not likely to get very far. And our judgements and action that are driven by manipulated emotions of resentful rage are liable to be utterly unwise and destructive. hence some of the warnings in teh Proverbs and the wider ME wisdom literature that it places in a hebraic, covenantal context ofg nationhood under God.
In particular, righteousness exalts a nation and sin is a disgrace to any people. truthfuloness brings blessing and deception becomes the ruin of a society that tries to live by lies — indeed, that is a part of what Kant used to identify evils in his Categorical Imperative.
So, free actions can have predictable and even all but unavoidable consequences, once we reach a certain critical social mass. Which, BTW, is part of why I am concerned that we avoid falling into manipulative narratives on the ME situation and/or begin to assume we know when we do not know enough to really understand [cf my 1919 test and the names Wiezmann and Feisal Hussein], as I point out above.
But while we may predict, God directly knows outcomes. And he knows the dynamics at work perfectly. So when he warns of destruction and we repent, his promise of restoration is a hope for even a civilisation as far gone towards self-destruction as ours currently is.
So, we can have free choice on actions, but not a simultaneous disconnect between actions and consequences. So, which impulses will we heed: our better angels or the urges that we know or should know, will drag us down to ruin.
Thus the urgent, life-saving priority of wisdom, guided by the virtues that lead us to the path of seeking and living by the truth, in love.
And thus, the challenge we face in our time.
GEM of TKI
Carlos // February 3, 2009 at 4:25 PM
Yes, Rev.Dr. Dick, “How free am I if my ‘options’ have been predetermined?”
The operative word in your question is ‘options’ which is grounded in ‘choice’ free will, either come God’s way and have true ‘life’ which begins here and now, when we repent and by ‘faith’ reasonable faith, accept and receive Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord.
The other option, IS to remain estranged from God’s mercy, grace and love, by ‘choice’ and continue to be lost.
The point is, that none of this was ‘predetermined’ but, already ‘known’ by Almighty God in His Omniscience, there is a vast difference between what is claimed as ‘predestination’ without choice, as opposed to God omnisciently knowing what your and my choice will be, even before we ultimately make that choice.
Example, if God knows you will eventually accept His offer of Salvation in, by, and through Jesus, He can then so order events, circumstances, etc., that will work in your favor, without in anyway violating the ‘free will’ of others, and yours as well.
Bush Tea // February 3, 2009 at 11:02 PM
Rev. Dr. Dick Hertz said…
*************************************
Touchdown Technician! If we have free will then how can there be prophecy? According to the theologians, the dice is loaded so no matter what we do the outcome is already determined (how else could there be prophecy?).
*************************************
Understanding the concept of prophecy becomes very simple if we understand that life on earth as we know it is really just a physical special project that has been created by the Big Boss Engineers (BBE/ God) who are spiritual masters of the REAL reality that is LIFE.
When this project was conceived, the plan was to create a special environment, with temporary (human) beings, created in the image of their makers, BUT SUBJECT TO CONSTRAINTS OF SPACE AND TIME.
The project requires that humans have freedom of choice, options of choosing between good and evil, and freedom from excessive interference by external (spiritual) forces.
Now obviously BBE, not being constrained by time or space, have no issues with such concepts as ‘the future’ or the ‘unknown’. Hence being able to detail events ‘in our future’ is just a “nobrainer” for BBE.
Prophecy is therefore not a prescription of what HAS to happen, but a preview for us MMEs of what will happen, made by advance beings who knows all- because they are already there -so to speak.
(MME=Micro Mock Engineer)
The REALLY interesting questions are
-What is the objective of the project?
-Where are we in the time line?
another view // February 3, 2009 at 11:12 PM
Where are we in the time line?
Very close to the end of time down here.
The rapture will soon occur, then the issues described in Revelation 6 and following will rapidly occur.
Bush Tea // February 3, 2009 at 11:51 PM
@Carlos
*************************************
Example, if God knows you will eventually accept His offer of Salvation in, by, and through Jesus, He can then so order events, circumstances, etc., that will work in your favor, without in anyway violating the ‘free will’ of others, and yours as well.
*************************************
I know that your heart is in the right place, but you need to know that it does not quite work like that.
While BBE does intervene on rare occasions, it generally takes “the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man” to achieve such intervention.
What BBE has done is to implement a set of spiritual laws which regulate life on earth. These laws are fixed, constant and unyielding.
Basically, one reaps as one sows.
Indeed one may sow the wind and reap the whirlwind…. as our business gurus are currently discovering.
Conversely, one who sows good and pursues right(eousness), will reap appropriate rewards -BOTH here during the project, and likely as a graduate in the coming next phase.
Carlos // February 4, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Bush Tea; said, “I know your heart is in the right place, but you need to know that it does not work like that.”
BT, I think you misunderstood me, as I was speaking in the context of ‘free’ will, vis-a-vis God’s Omniscience in knowing who ‘will’ choose to accept and receive Jesus as Saviour, against those who choose NOT to believe, again exercising their volitional ‘choice’ against such acceptance of God’s Universial offer of Salvation to all mankind!
Therefore, your reference to (James. 5:16b) “…it generally takes ‘the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man’ to achieve such intervention, is not relevant to this discussion of ‘free’ will, and God’s Omniscience.
James is addressing meeting specific needs within the ‘Church’ of already ‘Justified’ believers, i.e., the sick who are in need of prayer, hence, the, “Confess your trespasses to one another, (believers) and pray for one another, that you may be healed, (For) The effective fevent prayer of a righteous (justified believer) man avails much.” (James. 5:16).
No one has any inherent ‘righteousness’ as this word, rightly applies only to the Eternal Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
However, when a person, truly repents, and receives The Lord Jesus Christ, by faith, into their life and heart, IT IS only at that point of ’spiritual’ regeneration, that their are ‘imputed’ with the ‘Righteousness’ of Christ, therefore any rewards for ‘good’ works, now and specifically in the context of ‘righteousness, is only applicable to the ‘justified’ believer, as the ‘unsaved’ have no righteousness at all, but, the ‘Saved’ have been ‘imputed’ with the righteousness of Christ.
“For He (God the Father) made Him (Jesus Christ) who knew NO SIN, to be sin for us, (Jesus substitutionary death on Calvary) that we (those who are Saved) might be made the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him (Jesus Christ). (2 Cor. 5:21) emphasis added.
This is why Paul could declare:
“Therefore, having been justified (declared not guilty) by faith, we (those who are Saved), let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 5:1).
Now, back to the concept of ‘free’ will.
Voluntas: will; i.e., the faculty of will resident by nature in all spiritual beings; the apppetitive power (potentia appetitiva) of a spiritual being. Will is distinct from intellect (intellectus).
In the Thomistic model, intellect stands prior as the deliberative faculty; the will does not deliberate but merely inclines toward or desires that which the intellect knows as good or true. The will, therefore, can be called the intellecual appetite (appetitus intellectualis) or a rational appetite ( appetitus rationalis).
Will, defined as the appititive faculty in man, must be distinguished from choice (arbitrium). The WILL is the faculty that CHOOSES; arbitrium is the CAPACITY of the will to make a CHOICE or a decision. Thus, the will can be viewed as essentially free and unconstrained but, nonethless limited by its own capacity to choose particular things and, in view of the restricting and debilitating effects of SIN (peccata) is in bondage to its own fallen capacities.
However, notwithstanding this ‘bondage’ of SIN, God has allowed us the ability, through the faculty of ‘will’ which is the ability that ‘chooses’ to MAKE that choice, to respond to Him and receive His offer of forgiveness, in, by, and through Jesus Christ. The choice is ours to make!
We all have the ‘capacitas nolendi/capacitas volendi; ability or capacity to REFUSE or to NOT will/ability or capacity to will.
Rev Dr Dick Hertz // February 4, 2009 at 1:48 PM
Carlos
your sophistry and learning has not helped to bring enlightenment to me. It appears that you are making a distinction between “free will” and “free to choose”! If I understand you correctly my desire or capacity to take any potential course of action is “free” BUT since God knows beforehand what choice I’ll make I really didn’t have a choice.
As Technician wrote “why worry”!
another view // February 4, 2009 at 3:13 PM
Whats the difference between “free to chose” and “free will”?
Either you dont understand words or you are splitting hairs.
Rev Dr. Dick Hertz // February 4, 2009 at 4:06 PM
That’s all it is “words”! I admit that I don’t understand. The “splitting hairs” comment should really be addressed to Carlos.
another view // February 4, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Actually Carlos is saying the truth, but he is trying to be an intellectual about it (which he is not.) He shouls stick to what he knows and present the plain Biblical view
ROK // February 4, 2009 at 5:07 PM
I see this debate raging about free will and prophecy and I see Carlos there getting himself tied up as usual, trying to over-explain to satisfy his agenda, so let me satisfy mine.
The perspective here is that the secret to prophecy is the fact that man has certain propensities. Let’s take it down to a simple state. For example, it is easy to predict that, placed on an island by themselves, a man and a woman will have sex at some point in time.
The question is whether the man will take it or it will be given voluntarily or mutually? So then it becomes a question of conditions.
So therefore, what prevailing conditions would cause violence and what would cause voluntary and/or mutual action?
Man by his very living provides a track record of propensities. Some things seem to change but really there are still the same. I would posit that “the apparent” is a matter of spiritual advancement and strength. For example, you may know a persons strength of weakness and may fairly accurately describe his possible performance.
This is my equation: On a balance of probabilities or possibilities + given certain propensities + conditions = the outcome (Prophesy). If we were privileged to observe the evolution or development of beings and or societies on different planets, then based on the characteristics of the races and spiritual profile, it would be fairly easy to predict, especially when you are positioned to throw in certain controls like religion and understand the effects that ideologies have on intelligent beings.
The way I see it, free will is only apparent and very theoretical; the better of the two evils “for you” the individual, that exist within set parameters. Free will is exercised by your faith that by some input, some result will or will not happen. Don’t seem to be much difference between free will and freedom of choice; all exist within controlling parameters.
another view // February 4, 2009 at 5:32 PM
Rok the omniscient one is talking bull shit as usual, and displaying his total ignorance of the situation.
Rok go read up something by an acredited theologian on the doctrine of predestination. It is indeed a difficult doctrine; but you can try.
Are you saying that God the supreme whi is really truly omniscient cant see ahead and predict events accurately?
ROK // February 4, 2009 at 5:41 PM
another view
who say that I want to read up anything? I put forward my bullshit as you call it. What’s the problem? Am I not entitled to my view just as you are entitled to another view?
ROK // February 4, 2009 at 5:50 PM
another view,
“Are you saying that God the supreme whi is really truly omniscient cant see ahead and predict events accurately?”
…and where did I suggest that? I am always wary of people who call other people stupid. Usually it is their first name.
another view // February 4, 2009 at 6:15 PM
First Carlos was rightly dividing the word even though confusing the public with terms that were not needed but he was not tying up himself at all
You obviously know nothing about prophesy. The secret to prophecy has nothing to do with any of man’s propensities but on God being able to predict events. It has nothing to do with man. There are a number of predictions or promises or prophecies about the Lord’s first coming that were all accurately fulfilled. God knew that what did happen would happen and he predicted the same. (Reminds me of that long sentence in Caesar Gallic war with the futurum esse and the futurum iri in the same long sentence.)
Your long convoluted argument is nonsense, and reveals your ignorance of the subject.
It is not about the way you see it and your perspective. You seem to think that you can shoot of your silly opinions about everything, with out having studied the subject. That is nonsense. Spout about what you have studied.
e.g Your bull viz This is my equation: On a balance of probabilities or possibilities + given certain propensities + conditions = the outcome (Prophesy). If we were privileged to observe the evolution or development of beings and or societies on different planets, then based on the characteristics of the races and spiritual profile, it would be fairly easy to predict, especially when you are positioned to throw in certain controls like religion and understand the effects that ideologies have on intelligent beings.
Read that nonsense again and you will find that you have said nothing about prophesy. You are far far far away from the truth.
You are off course entitled to put your bullshit, but at least read about the subject (as Carlos obviously does) before spouting your effluent.
Saved // February 4, 2009 at 6:42 PM
Permit me to give a few thoughts on prophesy, which is indeed a difficult subject that requires much study.
Prophecy is often not very interesting because it appears to deal with the distant past or the indecipherable future. Either way, it doesn’t seem to affect us today.
To understand the importance and relevance of Bible prophecy, we first need to see its importance in the Bible itself. At least 25% of the Bible is explicitly classified as prophetic. God’s prophets were dear to Him. He often judges people on how they treated the prophets. He also is quite fond of saying that certain events must take place in order to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet. Also, the New Testament writers and Christ often referred to Old Testament prophecy. There are over thirty such direct references in the Gospels alone. Finally, there are many scriptures that attest to the critical value of prophecy. For example,
For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay. Habakkuk 2:3
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matthew 5:18
Christianity is based on the infallibility of God’s Word. It is the only religion in which unfulfilled prophecy plays such an important role. It may be said, without exaggeration, that Christianity depends on the literal fulfillment of Bible prophecy. For if God’s prophets are not true, then the Bible itself is not true. Therefore, to have a full appreciation for God’s plan for us, as revealed in his Word, we need to know what the prophets have said, what has already been fulfilled, and what has yet to be fulfilled.
The most important personal reason for studying Bible prophecy is to keep from being deceived in end times. We study the Bible as a standard for how we should believe and act. Many deceitful events will occur in the end times, so it is essential to know what God’s Word says as a baseline for discerning what is true and what is false.
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect– if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. Matthew 24:24-25
Verse 24 warns of great deception aimed at the elect of God. We can overcome the enemy’s lies by heeding verse 25, “See, I have told you ahead of time,” but we must know what the Word of God has already told us through intensive study and meditation. Then we must have an open mind to be able to apply the Word to what are sure to be surprising end times events.
It does seem as another view points out that INTENSIVE STUDY OF THE WORD AND MEDITATION, perhaps assisted by reading the works of men who have studied the subject, would be of great help before one pontificates and talk rubbish, about a subject that one does not know much about.
ROK // February 4, 2009 at 7:27 PM
You all people do make a lot of assumptions. I contend that the subjectivity with which you people approach the Bible leaves a lot to be desired.
There is no science in the approach except the study of what is not there. What meditation what? Pure and simple construction.
You all have a point to prove. I have none. Sometimnes when I read what supposedly brilliant men try to foist upon society, it is amazing. No wonder we so divided because the lack of knowledge and careful study of the facts eludes you, so then you try to foist what is a belief upon somebody.
You better check back what you write and see if it is not all based on belief, nothing scientific.
Observer // February 4, 2009 at 7:41 PM
I think GP/Carlos/Dictionary/another view/ Saved are all the same person
Saved // February 4, 2009 at 8:06 PM
Rok
Man the men got you pun de back foot.
Serious Bible students don’t study subjectively as you accuse the men or as you seem to do in your opinions.
Serious Bible students compare Scripture with Scripture using the Science of Hermeneutics.
Serious Bible students comment on the Word- not on their assumptions.
Serious Bible students believe (based on the Word of God) that God has made promises or predictions or prophecies and that since most of these promises or predictions or prophecies have been fulfilled evinces a strong proof that God has revealed himself in prophecy.
An example of this is the line of prophecy comprised of the numerous predictions concerning the first coming of Christ. To suggest that these are due to mere human prescience or to fortuitous coincidence, is to suggest a vastly greater improbability than that they are due to the direct revelation of God.
Christ was to be (1) born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:23),
(2) of the seed of Abraham (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:8),
(3) of the tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:10; Heb. 7:14),
(4) of the line of David (Ps. 110: 1; Rom. 1: 3);
(5) born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2; Matt. 2:6),
(6) anointed of the Spirit (Isa. 61:lf.; Luke 4:18f.).
He was to (7) ride into Jerusalem on a donkey (Zech. 9:9; Matt. 21:5),
(8) be betrayed by a friend (Ps. 41:9; John 13:18),
(9) be sold for thirty pieces of silver (Zech. 11:12f.; Matt. 26:15; 27:9f.),
(10) be forsaken by his disciples (Zech. 13:7; Matt. 26:31, 56),
(11) be pierced in his hands and in his feet, but not have a bone broken (Ps. 22:16 34:20; John 19:36; 20:20, 25).
Men were (12) to give him gall and vinegar to drink (Ps. 69:21; Matt. 27:34),
(13) to part his garments and cast lots for his vesture (Ps. 22:18; Matt. 27:35).
He was to be (14) forsaken of God (Ps. 22:1; Matt. 27:46) and
(15) buried with the rich (Isa. 53:9; Matt. 27:57-60).
He was to (16) rise’ from the dead (Ps. 16:8-11),
(17) ascend on high (Ps. 68:18; Eph. 4:8), and
(18) sit at the Father’s right hand (Ps. 110:1; Matt. 22:43-45).
In this example, I have compared compare Scripture with Scripture, and have made no assumptions, nor have I displayed any subjectivity..
Study of the Word does involve meditation, or chewing of the cud or rumination. In fact the Psalmist enjoins the reader of the Bible to do so.
Also since the English Bible is a translated book “ Pure and simple construction” is certainly not good enough! . Serious Bible students refer to concordances, and word studies and other texts to decipher what the original words in the Greek or Hebrew means, or how it may be used to arrive at the real meaning of the passage.
A good example would be Galatians 3:23 the law is our school master in the KJV . Here the Greek word means child trainer, and is really not the same as school master, when you consider manners and customs of the day.
ROK // February 4, 2009 at 8:54 PM
Saved
It is you that don’t understand. I cannot be a serious scripture student. Tell me something about theology and I don’t mean Christianity, I mean pure and applied theology.
This scripture study is based on a universal christian imagination and has nothing to do with the facts. As my dear Friend, at the time Canon Goodrige, Principal of Codrington College used to teach, unless you believe, forget it. There is no other basis.
I can’t even read fiction, farless study somebody else’s imagination. Sure, Bible students comment on the Bible. That is just what I mean. Even the same Bible tells you that you shall know them by their fruit. You cannot deny that the biggest lie prevails in the world of Christianity and that it is the image of Christ. Well if that is the first fruit of Christianity, you understand what I am saying.
Christ himself was a simple man. He never complicated things and that is what makes great men. Simple things. He warned you not to put up images and that is exactly what you are doing. He knew the dangers.
On the back foot? Yeah! The ball gone for six and I still at the crease. You ent see? Everything about Christianity is about belief and therefore subjective. If you try to tell me otherwise, you are not being truthful to yourself and like the fellow that doing evil, you looking for a partner so you can continue bullying and driving fear into people using Christianity as a weapon. Well Sir/Madam, it really does not matter.
As for another view. He/she is Carlos coat tail; cut from the same cloth. Never mind. You are still all my brothers. I have to accept that. I will not do like you and let my theology distance me from you, then I would have fallen prey too.
I tolerate a lot; like you trying to make others believe how ignorant I am, so that you could win an argument. You tell me that is Christianity? I don’t want no part of it. Keep it. My back is broad, like Christ I would say, Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. Who is the real Christian?
Let me tell you something. Christ was at pains to tell us that every man could be like him. He also tells you that to get to God it has to be through him. Well if we can be like him and you get to God through him, then does that not tell you how close you yourself are to God? No, but instead, you worshipping an image that you were told not to worship. How foolish? and calling others foolish. I can’t deal with that. You all too corrupt. Talk about false prophets? What mirror image do you have of yourself?
I prophesy that if Christ came back today, many would laugh at him because you do not know him and that when you crucify him again somebody will cry out, remember me when you are in paradise; and he would rise again too and talk about a third coming. You know what he would get crucified for, obliterating Israel. He would be branded as a terrorist; maybe even an anti-christ. That for you.
Saved // February 4, 2009 at 9:43 PM
You have not addressed the issue of prophesy or rightly dividing the Word of truth?
You have merely rambled on subjectively.
@ Oberver You are incorrect
ROK // February 4, 2009 at 10:05 PM
@saved
I am glad that you recognise that.
JC // February 4, 2009 at 11:13 PM
You cannot deny that the biggest lie prevails in the world of Christianity and that it is the image of Christ.
————————————————
ROK you will never get them to admit that ne ha HA AHA LOLOLOLOL!
Carlos // February 4, 2009 at 11:59 PM
Rev. Dr. Dick: You say; “Your sophistry and learning has not helped to bring enlightenment to me.”
Dear Dr, if you are unable to ‘grasp’ or understand that because God knows beforehand what ‘choice’ you will make, that this does not render you, as you say; “I really didn’t have a choice” then only Almighty God can enlighten your mind, and give you the much needed insight into this reality, that many don’t find difficult to comprehend.
Now, I most certainly DID not use ’sophism’ (sophistry) as you accused me of doing, as this is indicative of a ‘false’ argument, intending to deceive.
I DID not give any false argument, intending to deceive, far be it from me; I sought to give you sound theological terms and explanations behind the concept of ‘free will’ and the faculty that ‘chooses’, as we make multiple choices and decision every day in our lives, some of which are good and pleasing, others bad for us. If we self-evidently understand this, why is it so difficult to understand that choosing to accept Christ, is a ‘choice’ that does NOT violate your free will.
If, however, you are unable to make any sense of what I sincerely attempted to share with you, that’s sad, by alright. But, you are most ‘out’ of place to refer to it as ’sophistry’, but I ‘choose’ of my ‘free will’ to forgive you!
Another View: You said, “…but he is trying to be an intellectual (which he is not) He should stick to what he knows and present the plain Biblical view.”
I lay no claim to being an intellectual, that’s what you accuse me of ‘trying to be’.
I simply shared what I have studied for many long years, in formal theology, at both Bible College and Seminary up to the doctoral level. While this does not necessarily qualify me as an ‘intellectual’ I’ve been duly qualified in the discipline of theology, and respectfully am entitled to teach on the subject.
Others on this blog, without any or little training and knowledge in Bible and theology, are only making themselves fools, by ignorantly, and arrogantly attempting to pontificate on this subject. It is better to remain silent, tbeing a fool, than to open your mouth and have it confirmed.
The ‘free’ will choice is ours!
ROK // February 5, 2009 at 12:25 AM
Carlos
Who you tring to fool about free will being ours. If it were, prophecy would be a sham. Does it take a rocket scientist to work that out?
Training without common sense to back it up is like a library. What would you like to ask the library?
Rev Dr Dick Hertz // February 5, 2009 at 1:28 AM
Carlos
My utmost apology. I was certainly “out of place”. Wrong word used on my part. I may not understand your argument but I do not believe that you intend to deceive anyone. I do think that you have written what you honestly believe. Your post re Thomistic model seemed so heavy handed a response that it came across as sophical. Esotericism (as in understood by a select few) would have been a better word. Sorry again.
Anonymous // February 5, 2009 at 10:03 AM
……’Others on this blog, without any or little training and knowledge in Bible and theology, are only making themselves fools, by ignorantly, and arrogantly attempting to pontificate on this subject. It is better to remain silent, tbeing a fool, than to open your mouth and have it confirmed.
————————————————–What arrogance displayed by Christians !!
Because one is not educated to the highest order, it means they have no common sense or understanding??
No wonder so many of our fore parents are the way they are, leaving everything to the church, following blindly behind these ‘educated’ people who know the “Book ” so well.
If everyone has free will, why then are Christians so arrogant and condescending because others choose a different path.
I would think that if they really wanted to ‘win’ souls, they would at least stop with the fire and brimstone, scare tactics and just be humble ad reach out to people.
Just reading the posts above, from ‘Christians’ is enough to disgust and turn off the average young mind who are searching and need help in finding Christ.
ROK // February 5, 2009 at 11:49 AM
I have to agree with Anonymous here. I do not think they understand the damage they cause to Christianity with their pompous attitude. I keep telling them that they are not following Christ when they do that.
Actually, they are using the Bible as a weapon against innocent citizens. It can only be described as psychological terrorism. They should also consider the fact that to call anybody an idiot or ignorant in a generic sense makes them the idiots and the ignorant, because they are at least ignorant to the fact that each man must decide their destiny and idiots because people are not idiots. You dare scoff at the work of God? It is not your duty. Vengance is mine saith the Lord.
You can’t talk about free will in one breath and then tell me I only have one choice to salvation. What madness. There is no free will there. You giving me a choice between life and destruction, is that a choice?
One thing I know for sure is that a lot of you who are so self-righteous will certainly get a surprise at the pearly gates. How dare you treat the work of God like that? You will be called to account for something as simple as your harsh words to those you look down upon and even the fact that you look down upon them.
You will be called to account for worshiping graven images and for celebrating the birth and death of Christ. He told you not to do these things… but somehow you do not see the evil in it. Take a look at Xmas. Many claimed that the Christ is out of Xmas. You think that Christ’s name should be wrapped up in something that will eventually go sour?
You guys have a lot to account for, even moreso than those who do not believe, why? Because you have taken the word and corrupted it. A far greater sin.
anon // February 5, 2009 at 12:38 PM
silence all!
the mighty rok has spoken!
he who knows all has spoken!
bow the knee and listen in awe to the mighty rok!
cows come and go but the bullshit from rok is here to stay!
endure……oh me am (as they say in St Kitts)
ROK // February 5, 2009 at 1:33 PM
anon
Why don’t you declare who you are and stop hiding behind a cloak to spout insults. You don’t have anything in the closet? You are perfect? Only what you say must go? I am not ramming anything down anybody’s throat in the fanatical way that you are doing it.
I have not seen any substantial contribution from you. You echoing Carlos. You don’t have to worry about the bullshit I talk. Make sure about yourself when that time comes. Be a Christian and stop insulting people and using ridiculing tactics to shut up who are not saying the same as you.
You are wasting your time trying to shut me up and I am sure that there are a lot out there that agree with what I am saying. You need the truth. The truth shall set you free!
You guys are causing Christianity to leave a bad taste in the mouths of others who may ordinarily swing that way. No love, no compassion and certainly no wisdom.
Now you here stalking me because I dare to give a different view. I want you to know that stalking is a criminal act. You are a Christian or supposedly so. Why are you breaking the law? Why are you trying to infringe on another’s right to free speech? You dare to call yourself a Christian?
I will continue to speak out about the condescending and ridiculing manner in which people, who ought to know better, engage in the name of Christ. Right now this is a war against terrorism.
anon // February 5, 2009 at 2:21 PM
Harken to the voice of the loving compassionate ROK who knows all! Now he is in a war against terrorism. Now he is paranoid! He says he is being stalked, and I am a law breaker for mocking him.
I am not ramming anything down anybody’s throat in any fanatical way, I just showing the public that you are unable to do as you preach. You cannot be debunked?
And Rok, you would not be able to see a substantial contribution from me cause you cant see the substantial contribution from Carlos, who has been consistently dividing the Word correctly, though he didn’t go to Codrington like you. LOL
Cows come and go, but ROK’s bullshit is here to stay. That is the truth ROK! Ah lie?
Observer // February 5, 2009 at 2:53 PM
anon = carlos, GP, another view et al
ROK // February 5, 2009 at 3:37 PM
Yes, Carlos has been contributing and you have been holding on to his coat tail. Nothing of sustance or new from you.
I am hoping that all you bloggers out there as witnesses to the persecution of those claiming to come from God.
When will the terrorism and persecution stop? Lord, I remember you saying that the followers of Christ will get persecuted, but I never though they would be doing it in your name.
Maybe I am wrong. You did talk about the false prophets. Yes, I see what you mean. Are they the enemy too? Oh! They are not terrorists? Oh! They are “errorists”. Thanks Lord, for the clarification and for such words of wisdom and understanding.
anon, the Lord tell me he will deal with you when you get there. He say you have to pass that road.
Anonymous // February 5, 2009 at 3:42 PM
@ Anon
No one is saying that Carlos/Dictionary/another view/ Saved are not dividing up the word correctly ( whatever that means ).
What you fail to understand is that they are preaching bout their individual beliefs and respective faith.
What about the non-believer??
What about the lost ones??
How can they be reached when the ones who should be reaching ou, comes with this type of attitude and behavior?
People will always disagree, that is the nature of humans but shouldn’t Christians excercise some level of tolerance?
Look at the various denominations who have nothing to do with any other because they think theirs is the true one.
Isn’t this arrogance leading to a lot of the problems we see in the world today ?
It is so funny to say but most of the evils and sins in the world to day, I have experienced within the Church, go figure.
Carlos // February 5, 2009 at 3:47 PM
Rev. Dr. Dick Hertz: Your apology is accepted, thanks!
But, on ‘esotericism’ this is not the correct word either, as this carries the implicit connotation of those with special knowledge, i.e., those who are initiated into the ‘occult’ world of hidden arts, witchcraft, etc., etc., which is most certainly not what God’s Word, and theology is all about.
If you think through carefully what I shared with you, applying it to your daily life, as you make ‘choices’ through your ‘will’ versus your intellect, which is essentially knowledge based, I feel you’ll eventually grasp the concept.
anon // February 5, 2009 at 4:00 PM
@ Anonymous
I do not agree with you that no one is saying that Carlos, Dictionary, another view or Saved are not dividing up the word correctly, because Rok is certainly saying so!
If indeed Carlos, Dictionary, another view or Saved are indeed rightly dividing the word correctly then their individual beliefs and respective faith should line up with the Word, irregardless to what non-believers or the lost think.
Certainly Christians should excercise tolerance, but so should non-believers or the lost.
The various denominations is a work of the devil and the placing of DOGMA over DOCTRINE. This is very unfortunate.
The problems in the world today stems not from the different denominations, or from the arrogance that you perceive in Christians, but from the SIN in the hearts of individuals.
It is certainly untrue to say that most of the evils and sins in the world to day is the fault of the church. If that is your experience, it seems that your experience is either limited or biased, or both.
anon // February 5, 2009 at 4:15 PM
Rock ma boy
Of course Carlos has been contributing and I see no need to compete with him. He has been doing a good job, so why must I jump in? You are not willing to listen or learn anyway, because you think you know it all mighty omniscient one!
No one is persecuting or terrorizing anyone. I am just mocking you Oh mighty omniscient one! I want you to learn that Bible studying has nothing to do with “your take” on things, or your perspective. Go and take a course in Methods of Bible Study. Read some Hermeneutics. Try to open your mind and learn something new, and something true! YOU DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING AS YOU THINK. Be willing to admit you don’t know. Ask questions. Don’t just disregard the efforts of true students of the Word because you don’t know what they are taking about.
If you want respect, respect others views too.
You are calling folk names and expect folk to bow before you? You must learn too that you don’t have to play at every ball! Learn some humility and listen.
ROK // February 5, 2009 at 4:24 PM
Anon,
Where did I say you or Carlos are not “Dividing up the Word” correctly? I merely stated that I had my view and I get attacked.
As far as I am concerned, Carlos is “dividing the Word” correctly according to his teaching but not for me, Sir or Madam. I am entitled to that.
I will say it again, it must start with your faith. You choose that path and I cannot deal with it. That is all I am saying, but don’t start calling me ignorant because I have another view. I did not call you that.
I opposed the near violent, psychological and abusive manner in which you would like others to accept what you say, when even the scholars can’t agree among themselves to a lot of the issues.
ROK // February 5, 2009 at 4:35 PM
When you call me omniscient one and tell me that I talking bullshit, what is that except abuse, intended to derogate my character?
I know for myself that I do not know everything and commonsense will tell you that no one person can know everything. If that is so, then you are trying to mock me and for one reason only. I put forward a different view.
You have Carlos, Dr. Hertz, Dictionary, Scout, GP and Saved all on your side telling everybody the same or similar thing.
I am one, why you putting so much emphasis on me? When did I call you names? And where did I indicate that I want somebody to bow down before me? Oh! I see! I dared to speak up?
You have problems, please don’t put them on me.
Chris Halsall // February 5, 2009 at 4:37 PM
@anon… With all due respect…
I find myself being annoyed by you…
@anon: “Go and take a course in Methods of Bible Study. Read some Hermeneutics.
What makes you assume we haven’t?
And, to counter, have you recently read much Penrose? Stephenson? Heisenberg? Einstein? Newton? Gödel?
@anon: “Try to open your mind and learn something new, and something true!
With respect, kind Sir, I, personally, go out of my way every day to open my mind to new ideas.
This it not to mean that I don’t reject as stupid some of which I’m presented….
Observer // February 5, 2009 at 4:45 PM
ROK writes,
“You have Carlos, Dr. Hertz, Dictionary, Scout, GP and Saved all on your side telling everybody the same or similar thing.”
That is not as many different people as you think.
Not to worry, there is more on your side that you think
anon // February 5, 2009 at 4:59 PM
If Carlos et al are rightly dividing the Word, then “your opinion, your view your take” is then by your own definition incorrect.
You cant divide the Word correctly by your teaching or someone else’s teaching, or my teaching. One and one is two always; irregardless to who teaches you. P1 V1 = P2 V2 irregardless to who teaches you. The Lord is my Shepherd means exactly what it says. There is rightly dividing the word of truth, and wrongly dividing the word of truth! You cant be right and wrong simultaneously!
Rightly dividing the word has nothing to do with faith, it has to do with spiritual understanding. People of different faiths actually agree on many aspects of the Word, when they correctly divide it!
Error creeps in when folk want to introduce their personal subjective ideas, without comparing scripture with scripture as Saved opined yesterday, and seek to make the Word mean what they want it to say.
Error creeps in when denominations try to fit the Word to suit their dogma, rather than to coincide with the doctrine or teachings of the word. We ought to find out 1-what the Word SAYS, then 2-WHAT the Word MEANS, before we can have a go at APPLICATION OF THE WORD. #1 and #2 can not change!
When it says they got in a boat and went over to the other side, it means they got in a boat and went over to the other side. Now you can apply it by saying you ought to get in the right boat, or don’t miss the boat or what ever.
You cant be right all the time! I have had to review my position after doing word studies in Vine or Wuest or Barclay or Hort etc
I have had to review my position after reading a scripture that I had not read before.
e.g On prayer the Word teaches that we will get what ever we ask for. Is that the full truth? No. There is another texts that says if we ask in his will! The full truth is we will get what we ask for if we ask in his will.
Chris Halsall // February 5, 2009 at 5:17 PM
@anon… 0K. L37s d0 7h1s…
@anon: “P1 V1 = P2 V2 irregardless to who teaches you.
You have introduced four “variables” to this discussion: P1, P2, V1 and V2.
You have also introduced a relation: ((P1 * V1) == (P2 * V2)).
Can you please define the variables P1, P2, V1 and V2?
anon // February 5, 2009 at 5:20 PM
Chris
With all due respect…Be annoyed if you wish.
Have you taken a course in Methods of Bible Study? Have you read Hermeneutics? Be honest now. Im sure you haven’t. Most church goers have not, Im sure; even evangelicals I meet have no definite program or method(s) of study..
If I want to study Ovid, or Livy, or Shelley etc I would go and but keys and seek help from the experts thereon. And most folk will do so when studying most subjects. But everyone wants to opine on the Bible with authority without studying the book. That has been my experience for almost 50 years.
Martin Luther taught that he studied the Word as he picked apples. He shook the tree, then he searched limb by limb, and looked under every leaf and twig.
Serious Bible students would have used some survey method, then book by book study, then chapter by chapter study, then verse by verse study or exegesis, then word studies. Serious Bible students would seek to master Typology, Topical studies, Biographical studies etc etc That’s Basic Methods of Bible Study. Have you done that Chis. Can you honestly say that you have?
When I started to seriously study the Word as a teen, I was fortunate to read a list of some good rules to follow in studying in a few booklets that I bought. Many years later, I found these rules in texts on Hermeneutics.
Technician // February 5, 2009 at 5:22 PM
Oh shoot…..gone for a bit and all hell brek loose pun this thread.
Well, well, well……
I thought this was over but now it has a different spin.
Rok….boy I am one on your side…believe me.
I think Anonymous is one of my workmates too because we had this same discussion in the office and I was the one, who introduced them to BU.
I hope the boss aint on here too, ’cause we should have been working but thanks to LIME, the phones were out and the customers couldn’t get through (thanks LIME).
One thing that I have always said , is the condescending manner in which these so called Christians put forth their points.
Gone are the days when the Church could scare us into their belief, gone are the uneducated fore parents who knew nothing and had to depend on church elders for spiritual guidance.
What we see now is the Church losing its power to control of the minds of the people .
*********************************************
……’Certainly Christians should excercise tolerance, but so should non-believers or the lost.
Who then, are the ones professing to know better?
Shouldn’t they be the ones leading by example?
************************************************
…..’If you want respect, respect others views too.
You are calling folk names and expect folk to bow before you? You must learn too that you don’t have to play at every ball! Learn some humility and listen.
Why not ask your “friends” to do the same?
********************************************
…’The various denominations is a work of the devil and the placing of DOGMA over DOCTRINE. This is very unfortunate.
Indeed, it is unfortunate but can you tell the difference or further explain, who are the ones doing the Devil’s work from the ones doing Christ’s work?
************************************************
Anonymous says…….
It is so funny to say but most of the evils and sins in the world to day, I have experienced within the Church, go figure.
Anon says….
It is certainly untrue to say that most of the evils and sins in the world to day is the fault of the church. If that is your experience, it seems that your experience is either limited or biased, or both.
You, Anon have deliberately twisted the words of Anonymous to fit your agenda.
I grew up in the church and have also, just as Anonymous has said in his post, seen and experienced most of the evils and sin, that one can find in the world today.
Things like adultery, envy, stealing, greed, pride……etc.
This is not the same as saying…..’that most of the evils and sins in the world to day is the fault of the church.’
I guess I could add another accolade to you then…..Deception !!
Let the hits come…….
Chris Halsall // February 5, 2009 at 5:25 PM
@anon: “Have you taken a course in Methods of Bible Study? Have you read Hermeneutics?
Let me please me it very simple for you…
Do you understand thermodynamics?
Do you even understand conservation of energy?
anon // February 5, 2009 at 5:30 PM
Chris
The formula P1 V1 = P2 V2 is Boyle’s Law, named after the British chemist Robert Boyle (1627 – 1691). It states that the volume of a fixed mass of gas at a constant temperature is inversely proportional to the pressure of the gas.
OR in less formal terms:
When pressure increases, volume decreases.
When volume increases, pressure decreases.
P = Pressure; V = Volume
Yes Chris I understand thermodynamics and the concept of conservation of energy
Chris Halsall // February 5, 2009 at 5:35 PM
@anon: “The formula P1 V1 = P2 V2 is Boyle’s Law
Very good.
Now, perhaps you might explain to us all why you referenced this in your posted dated 2009.02.05.1659.
You used “big thinkers” language. (Without, I might note, explaining why…)
Perhaps you might show you are worthy of using same….
Observer // February 5, 2009 at 5:38 PM
Tech, I hope you have been reading these posts carefully
you sure it is christian(s) posting?
anon // February 5, 2009 at 5:46 PM
Chris this is what I wrote
You cant divide the Word correctly by your teaching or someone else’s teaching, or my teaching. One and one is two always; irregardless to who teaches you. P1 V1 = P2 V2 irregardless to who teaches you. The Lord is my Shepherd means exactly what it says. There is rightly dividing the word of truth, and wrongly dividing the word of truth! You cant be right and wrong simultaneously!
The point I was making with reference to Basic Arithmetic and Basic Physical Chemistry is that it does not matter who teaches you a particular concept once they have taught the concept correctly. I cited examples to prove my assertion.
I dont really think this is using “big thinkers” language. The concepts I used are well known to most of us who attended secondary school. Common knowledge really, I think.
Observer // February 5, 2009 at 5:47 PM
a theologian who knows boyle’s law, chris I wonder who that could be
Observer // February 5, 2009 at 5:49 PM
I see anon accepts some basic chemistry, I wonder if he accepts some basic biology, what do you think chris?
Chris Halsall // February 5, 2009 at 5:56 PM
@anon… You are so full of bovine excrement that it isn’t even funny.
It is sad, in fact…
In relation to your post of 2009.02.05.1659, you pulled an equation out of your ass, and in the very second paragraph, tried to impress us all.
Wow. Cool. He knows (or at least claims to) that the pressure and volume in a system must remain constant.
Wow. Deep. Who would have thought?
And then you try to map this to some deep spiritual truth…
Care to pull any other truths out of your ass? Like, say that 1 + 1 == 2?
Or that the cube root of 27 is 3?
Care to offer anything new?
Or is that beyond your simple abilities?
And, therefore, that we should look beyond you for answers to the questions we currently face?
anon // February 5, 2009 at 6:06 PM
Technician
No hits for you, cause you are fair and rational, and give and take.
I agree with you that … Gone are the days when the Church could scare us into their belief, gone are the uneducated fore parents who knew nothing and had to depend on church elders for spiritual guidance. What we see now is the Church losing its power to control of the minds of the people
All that is true Technician. But what is also true is that Jesus predicted that he would not find the faith when he returned. Paul also predicted that there would be apostasy or falling away from the truth.
I will agree with you that ALL should learn humility and listen to others.
I said that “The various denominations is a work of the devil and the placing of DOGMA over DOCTRINE. This is very unfortunate.” And it is true. It cannot be denied. It is not for me to determine or explain who are the ones doing the Devil’s work from the ones doing Christ’s work. But I can tell you that in all denominations, there is the tendency to place of DOGMA over DOCTRINE. I have seen it over and over even among my denomination.
Technician I stand by my statement that “It is certainly untrue to say that most of the evils and sins in the world to day is the fault of the church. If that is your experience, it seems that your experience is either limited or biased, or both.”
Although, like you, I grew up in the church and have seen and experienced most of the evils and sin, that one can find in the world today, including . adultery, envy, stealing, greed, pride……etc. it is not deception to say that these errors are the FAULT OF THE CHURCH. There is sin everywhere, because MEN ARE SINNERS.
anon // February 5, 2009 at 6:15 PM
Chris
Why are you trying to be a naughty boy? I would have thought that was beyond you man. LOL I am surprised that you seem surprised that I know simple things like Boyle’s law, and that 1 + 1 == 2 or that the cube root of 27 is 3? I went school too—just like you.
I am no longer full of bovine excrement . I went on a course of these berries that are being touted about online. LOL
Since we agree that my abilities are simple, I confess that it wont be wise for you or others to look to me for answers to the questions we currently face.
But you haven’t said whether you had studied Methods of Bible Study or Hermenetics? But then again you don’t pontificate on the Bible.
Chris Halsall // February 5, 2009 at 6:24 PM
@anon: “But you haven’t said whether you had studied Methods of Bible Study or Hermenetics?
Nor have you said whether you’ve read Penrose, Stephenson, Heisenberg, Einstein, Newton or Gödel.
I find myself very comfortable standing where I am….
anon // February 5, 2009 at 6:27 PM
OK so be it.
No I am a simple man who loves Bible study so whereas I needed to study Methods of Bible Study or Hermenetics to do so I have no need to read Penrose, Stephenson, Heisenberg, Einstein, Newton or Gödel.
I guess you didnt have to to study Methods of Bible Study or Hermenetics and so you havent. Thats OK too.
Rev Dr.Dick Hertz // February 5, 2009 at 7:19 PM
ROK
How did I get on Carlos, Dictionary etc “side”? I’m on nobody’s and everybody’s side. Just asking some questions, looking for some answers.
Also I am not Carlos, GP, Dictionary, Scout or whoever! I am a guy with a $49.99 degree from the Peabrain Theological School and Massage Parlour (motto “Laying of hands our specialty”)
Observer // February 5, 2009 at 7:27 PM
dont worry, rev dick we know you are unique
i suspect though you went to ’school’ with some of the theologians quoted here
Rev Dr.Dick Hertz // February 5, 2009 at 7:50 PM
Carlos,
after you wrote ” applying it to your daily life, as you make ‘choices’ through your ‘will’ versus your intellect, which is essentially knowledge based, I feel you’ll eventually grasp the concept” ….whew!! I’ll stick with esoteric as the correct word! No occult connotations implied though.
ROK // February 5, 2009 at 8:41 PM
anon
I can safely tell you that I choose to forget a lot about the approach to Bible Study because in my opinion it is flawed. I would agree that there are some basics, but these by no stretch of the imagination represent a single approach to Bible Study.
Words have been interpreted in so many ways and had so many other meanings. The problem starts with the translation and the quest to make translation modern is to further lose the original meaning.
You can fool the rest that there is a strict law like Boyle’s Law that you can apply to scriptures and like 1 + 1 = 2. Joke. Not that straightforward at all.
The true study of the Bible begins with the study of the culture and an examination of historical records, simply to understand the gist of the story. There is a whole heap of extraneous material which must be considered and applied.
A study of the Parables for example, involves comparisons to discover threads and trends in order to gain understanding of what was said within time frames and use of language.
I remember that for years this statement baffled me: “It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of heaven.”
This is what I mean by understanding the culture and the meaning of the words because needle carried different meanings in those days to what we know now. Given what we know as a needle today, which even a baby camel can’t get through, one may come to the conclusion that it is impossible for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven, when that is not true.
But note the use of the words, “it is easier”, suggesting a really tight fit, notwithstanding that even a baby camel could get through a needle’s eye of those days.
So, yes, if you don’t know what you are doing you will hardly get it, but it not rocket science and to tell the truth, a lot may be retained but what cannot be denied is that a lot was lost too.
This Hermenetics that you keep talking about is nothing more than categorisations and groupings of words and meaning and ways of discovering meanings. More like the use of the language, or a basis for construction in order to interpret.
This is fraught with all types of problems. It was/is used to complete sentences which got lost, either by decay or damage. Whole texts got lost and were replaced by what some scholars believed was there. Trying to reconstruct entire chapters, etc.
The problem with most Bible readers is that they take as Gospel what they read, but there are some critical texts which are not the original text. The inserted texts are not identified to the average reader and therefore many are not aware of the texts that are not good to rely on as apposed to the original text; especially in the old testament.
So the first problem with the Bible is that a lot of the original stories are missing and people run the risk of using the inserted text to override the authentic text.
If therefore you do not start with the original story, how can you speak of truth? It is not a scientific study in this sense. I wish I could remember some of the inserted text, but these are things I have put out of my mind. Genesis, Deuteronomy, Exodus, etc., all have inserted texts. I think Exodus was the worst hit.
When found, the scrolls were in very bad condition and even in opening and moving them further damage occurred because of the rotting and crumbling dry state of the material.
Next was the translation. For a long time the Hebrew scrolls were a puzzle. Then scholars could not agree on the translation and use of the words and language, because of the time span. Languages changed and were lost.
This is the document these fellas are relying on. I must admit that the new testament was in much better condition… but you guys playing a guessing game in the name of faith and you cannot foist that on me because you do not have the full story.
ROK // February 5, 2009 at 9:12 PM
Sorry Doc. with the $49.99 degree. I did not mean to identify you by association… sorry, the dialogue you keep. Carlos sounds like your professor. I saw him correcting you in class.
My Humble Apologies, Sir. I like the idea of the probing electric stick. You must have the ladies heads turning.
Micro Mock Engineer // February 5, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Did you guys not get the memo back in 1873? P1.V1 is only APPROXIMATELY equal to P2.V2 for most gases, and the relationship breaks down completely at high pressures or low temperatures. Even at normal pressures and temperatures, there are some gases, for example biogas, that notably break Boyle’s ‘law’.
A better approximation would be:
[P1 + a(n/V1)^2][V1 - nb] = [P2 + a(n/V2)^2][V2 - nb]
ROFL
Bush Tea // February 5, 2009 at 9:37 PM
@ ROK
I like your cynicism. I also agree to some extent with your analysis of the complexity and confusion associated with religion generally, and with the study of the bible specifically.
You are obviously a thinker. How about we forget about the bible for a while and use our natural intelligence to analyse where we are in this world and what is likely to be the ‘truth’…
Don’t you think that collectively we have the intellect to come to a logical conclusion here on BU?
I would start by suggesting that the beauty, complexity and brilliance of our world clearly points to a master design and therefore a designer.
I would further suggest that this ‘designer’ must of necessity be at least as intelligent as our best human minds.
The point here being that the whole concept MUST make logical, rational sense and the true role and purpose of the bible, Koran and the ‘church’ etc should fall out logically from the analysis….
You game…?
Chris Halsall // February 5, 2009 at 9:55 PM
@Bush Tea: “I would start by suggesting that the beauty, complexity and brilliance of our world clearly points to a master design and therefore a designer.
To paraphrase “Cheech and Chong”…
Smells like a presupposition…
Tastes like a presupposition…
Good thing we didn’t step in it….
Chris Halsall // February 5, 2009 at 9:56 PM
@MME: “A better approximation would be: [P1 + a(n/V1)^2][V1 - nb] = [P2 + a(n/V2)^2][V2 - nb]
Thanks. I needed that….
Bush Tea // February 5, 2009 at 10:10 PM
@Mr Halsall
You may have noted that I was addressing ROK.
It is clear that your brilliant mind is miles above my lowly plain of existence. I would not be so forward as to try to foist such nonsense on your superior intellect.
Please forgive me if it appears that I was trying to do so….
Chris Halsall // February 5, 2009 at 10:23 PM
@Bush Tea…
Gosh… My mistake….
Please accept my apologies for daring to call bullshit when said bullshit was not directly directed towards me.
Georgie Porgie // February 5, 2009 at 10:39 PM
@ Micro Mock Engineer
Indeed a better approximation would,might very well be:
[P1 + a(n/V1)^2][V1 - nb] = [P2 + a(n/V2)^2][V2 - nb]
But for lesser mortals like me who found it hard enough to do the computations with a simple P1V1 =P2 V2, is why you want to complicate things man?
Carlos // February 5, 2009 at 10:40 PM
Dr. Dick: You said, “I’ll stay with ‘esoteric’ as the correct word! No occult connotation implied though.”
I still have to strongly disagree with you, as ‘esoteric’ in its true and correct meaning has absolutely NO connection whatsoever with God’s Word, or for that matter, the principles of Biblical Hermeneutics, Contextual Analysis, and Linguistic Exegesis; all of which are essential in being able to ‘correctly’ divide the Word, properly ‘interpret’ which are NOT subject to the whim-wham fancy of the individual, as many have done, corrupting, maligning, and twisting the ‘Truth’ therein.
Esotericism is therefore strickly speaking, associated with the world of the ‘Occult’ the antithesis to the Word of God, and historic, orthodox theology, in every which way, period!
I know what I am speaking to, as prior to being ‘Saved’ I was innocently and deceptively ‘hood-winked’ into one of the many ‘occult’ oriented societies, whose subtle dogmas, were cloaked in ‘esoteric’ gibberish, ever learning, but never, ever, coming to know the ‘Truth.’
There is a reality in the occultic experience which attracks many people to it. All of us desire some sort of ultimate answer for life’s basic questions, and the world of the ‘occult’ gladly, and seemingly, supplies the answers. The astrologist will chart your future. The Ouija board promises you direction, and the medium talking to the spirit of your dead relative informs you that things are fine in the next world.
Since these occultic practices do reveal some amazing things, the practitioner is lulled into thinking that he has experienced ultimate reality and no longer needs to continue his search for truth. The spiritual vacuum is filled by means of a spiritual experience, NOT with God, but invariably from the pit of hell; with all of its ‘Esoteric’ lies.
The Bible, categorically denounces any and all ‘occultic’ practices in both the Old and New Testament. (See Deut. 18: 9-14), and in the NT, (cf Gal. 5:20; Acts. 13:6-12; 19:19).
“Many also of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of all…” (Acts. 19:19).
“You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?” (Acts. 13: 10).
No lie or deception, whether it be political, economic, philosophical, or spiritual, is more dangerous than when it is ‘couched’ ‘veneered’ convoluted and presented in some degree of plausibility, (seeming reasonable or probable), for this is in effect the very art of the world of occultisim, and its ‘esoteric’ lies!
Observer // February 5, 2009 at 10:54 PM
somehow I am not surprised carlos got “hoodwinked” into an “occult oriented society”
Micro Mock Engineer // February 5, 2009 at 11:05 PM
LOL Georgie,
Just keeping it real for any impressionable science students that happen across this blog. :-)
… but GP, you very quiet throughout this debate.
Carlos // February 5, 2009 at 11:23 PM
Bush Tea: Yes, absolutely Yes!
“I would start by suggesting that the BEAUTY, COMPLEXITY, and BRILLIANCE of our world clearly point to a master DESIGN, (without doubt), and therefore a DESIGNER, (Almighty God!).
Some other commenter, scoffed at the unspeakable beauty, complexity, and brilliance of ‘design’ by ignorantly referring to it as ‘BS’ as my father use to say, ‘BS’ BAFFLES ‘brains’ especially those of the scientific intelligentsia.
Not to worry BT, as their utter folly is appropriately described by their Creator whom they vehemently deny.
Folly of the Godless, and God’s Final Triumph.
“The FOOL has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have done abominable works. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowldge…”
(Psa. 14: 1, 4). emphasis added.
Observer // February 5, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Carlos,
would you say “Almighty God” has “beauty, complexity and brilliance”?
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 1:10 AM
BT
I take a different approach. I don’t like to separate myself from God. I start with the premise that God is all and therefore God is in me and every living person. All things are the manifestation of God including the earth and the trees.
I can take my reference from the Bible. Omniscience, omnipresence, etc. of God. It makes sense that in order to be omniscient one would have to know everything that every living creature knows, and in order to be omni-present one would have to be in every living creature and thing everywhere.
Then you get a different perspective of God. It is then that one realises the respect and responsibility for life that is required. It should not be abused because then you are destroying God’s work and there is always a penalty to pay for destruction.
It is then that the concept of sin becomes much clearer. It is one thing to have guidelines such as the ten commandments, but these are only guidelines. Sin is a much wider topic that goes beyond crime.
We also get to understand that sin has a lot to do with how you treat your body and your relationships with people around you; your spiritual health, so to speak. You get to understand also that sin is about excesses too; “The wages of Sin is Death” becomes clearer. We also say, too much of anything is bad.
There is great wisdom in a lot of these little sayings. More of the message is in these little things than the commentary. They send deep messages, great wisdom and contain principles of living and clues for recognising and quantifying certain things.
Ye shall know them by their fruit;
He who is not against me is for me;
“It is your faith that healed you”;
“Why do ye stare into the skies?”
Look within;
Why do you call unclean what the Lord has made clean;
Wives obey your husbands, husbands obey your wives;
The idea of avoiding idolatry and not worshiping images;
Great wisdom and lessons of life for practical application.
Of course there are some discrepancies to be resolved between who is the God of the Bible and who the Bible say God is. These things require deep thought but they are not without answers that lie in the text of the very book.
I remember reading the “Forgotten Books of Eden” and it was there that I got a good glimpse of the relationship between God and Satan. This is one of the first clues about who is the God of the Bible.
I must admit that this question of who or what is truly God, if it can be correctly ascertained, is the key to a righteous and fulfilling life. One approach is to identify what it is not and probably what is left is who or what God is.
I am finding it difficult to believe that God is either man or woman, it has to be both, just as male and female propagate life. If God made us all, then it would be proper to assume that God is male as well as female.
There is much to be reconciled in terms of the existence of negative and positive, if everything is God… but then this discrepancy may also be an indication of the vastness of God to comprehend or the infinite nature of God.
If god is infinite, who is this God of the Bible that had definite form? And what about the physical nature of the so-called angels.
More questions arise. What is the spirit and what is this great affinity between the physical and the spiritual? What is the difference between a live person and one that gave up the ghost?
What is the Ghost? What is the Holy Ghost? The word ghost is now being replaced everywhere by spirit. Why?
Lot’s of questions and the answers are there right before our noses. I am not sure I want to go any further right now.
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 3:24 AM
@anon
“You cant divide the Word correctly by your teaching or someone else’s teaching, or my teaching.”
For you to say this means you really don’t understand or you trying to scrape the barrel to trivialise the issue. I think you playing that you don’t understand because you trying to get an upperhand by baring out that I talking foolishness based on a technicality?
In contrast, you better believe that I know where I am and that I really can’t go along with the fairy tale story because I know better. It doesn’t take history or even intellect to tap the raw power and force of God, even as Christ tapped it. Sometimes the bare innocence of a child is God at work in a significant way.
The kind of Bible analysis that you feel so passionate about, don’t even matter. It has to do with how you live. This is not a book thing. You can’t find it in a book. This is tacit knowledge which can only be described to you but will only be truly felt by you. It cannot be known unless you experience it and you cannot see it if you have not experienced it.
I leave you with that.
Carlos // February 6, 2009 at 6:54 AM
ROK: Says, “I start with the premise that God is in all and therefore God is in me and every living person. All things are the manifestation of God including the earth and the trees….and in order to be omi-present one would have to be in every creature and thing every where.”
Unfortunately, this view of God, is most certainly not founded on sound Biblical theology, or even more specifically, systematic theology.
This concept of God, is more akin to the Pantheistic view of God; Pantheism is made up of two words: “pan” meaning “all: and “theos” meaning God”. It is the belief that God is ALL and ALL is God. Pantheism is the theory which regards all finite things as merely aspects or parts of one eternal self-existent being. It holds that there is no God apart from nature, and that everything in nature is part or ‘manifestation’ of God. Trees, birds, flowers, animals, reptiles, etc., are all part of God. Nature itself is God.
Of course, there are a number of different types of Pantheism; i.e., Materalistic Pantheism; Hylozoism or Pantheism; Neutralism; Idealism; which is them broken down into, Impersonalistic Idealism, Personal Idealism, and Philosophical Myticism.
These theories do reveal man’s intuitive belief in a god, but also illustrate man’s inability to reject God’s revelation of Himself, as divinly inspired and recorded in His Word, the Bible, and come to true knowledge of Him. In trying to find God in creation they have made creation God, and missed the Creator behind it. In attempting to find God in ‘all’ things, they have made ‘all’ things God.
In Summary:
Pantheism makes nature god and misses the God of nature.
Materialistic Pantheism, makes matter eternal and misses the God who made matter.
Hylozoism, makes a principle of life god, and misses the God who is the source of life.
Neutralism, makes some neutral substance god, and misses God the creator of all substance.
Idealism, makes the mind god, and misses the God who is a real person having a perfect mind.
Philosophical Mysticism, makes man himself god, and misses the God who made all men.
It is important to understand, that the Omnipresence of Almighty God, DOES not make Him present in ‘all’things, as these different theories purport; but, that while one of His Eternal attributes is ‘Omnipresence’ He nevertheless, IS entirely ‘Transcendent’ as Creator of ‘all’ things, existing apart from them, and therefore not subject to the limitations of, the material universe.
Carlos // February 6, 2009 at 7:20 AM
Man cannot know God or what God is like apart from revelation. If God does not reveal Himself to man, it is ‘impossible’ for him to discover God for himself. Man with all his searching cannot find out God. God Himself, must take the initiative. (Job 11:7; Matthew 11:25-27). This God has done in His Word, the Bible. The Word of God IS the revelation of God. Without it we would have no revelation as to His essence, nature and being. We must turn to the Scriptures to consider what God has revealed about Himself in His own mode of being, realizing that “the secret things belong to the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may know all the words of this law.” (Deut. 29:29).
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 7:28 AM
H’mm:
I have been asked to look back here and see what is going on.
Okay . . .
As we here in M’rat reflect on ol Smoky’s next act after his 12 km high new year celebration . . .
[Hint to "Observer," Carlos and I are most definitely distinct persons. And, even if we were not, that has no relevance to the issue of what is there on the merits of fact and logic.]
Next, I see all sorts of distracting debates over Anon’s:
>>You cant divide the Word correctly by your teaching or someone else’s teaching, or my teaching. One and one is two always; irregardless to who teaches you. P1 V1 = P2 V2 irregardless to who teaches you. The Lord is my Shepherd means exactly what it says. There is rightly dividing the word of truth, and wrongly dividing the word of truth! You cant be right and wrong simultaneously! >>
Already this is on a tangent off a tangent off a tangent on the substantial issues we had better attend to as pointed out above.But, we do need to clear up the “Who knows what games.”
a –> PV = const is indeed a 3 – 4th form Physics or Chemistry thing. So, it is legitimate to cite it as an example of an objective model that is not a mere matter of opinions and speculations.
b –> Within the zone of validity [dilute relatively simple gases -- biogases are complex], it works, as does the extended PV = nRT. Onward in 6th form I expect some kinetic theory and intro to statistical thermodynamics.
c –> Van Der Waals models are an improvement for some purposes [intermolecular attraction, bulk of molecules become parameters], MME. (Wiki has a useful discussion. For general physics survey I now highly recommend Schiller’s free online textbook, Motion Mountain.)
d –> VDW models however have the defect that at a certain zone, they show a wiggle where the real gases ate flat — phase transition issues. Modifications allow for averaging off.
e –> Models are not reality, but can be useful.
f –> Same BTW for theories across time. Motion Mountain has a very good discussion. (I love its simple intro to General Theory of Relativity.)
Now, on signs of our times and hermeneutics:
1 –> Language uses words in structures in contexts, to communicate meaning. If you can converse and read and know truth from error or lie, you know this at some level. So this is a commonplace.
2 –> That brings up meanings [ambiguous so context is vital] e.g. what does “jack” mean: fish/ car tool/ electronic plug/ man’s name, etc.
3 –> We need to look at how words work together: subjects, predicates, nouns, verbs, modifiers, genre, context, background knowledge assumed or required etc etc. [Cf on Boyle, Univ Gas law, moles, Univ gas const, implied Boltzmann's const, concept of molecules and atoms, etc above. BTW, I like Kellogg sentence diagrams -- now; hated em in 3rd form -- as they help us see what is going on. never mind the more formally correct tree diags beloved of linguists, and parsers in compilers. good enough for govt work. As is Boyle!]
4 –> So far, general. Hermeneutics, exegesis and at a simpler level inductive Bible study, apply the above in the context of Bible.
5 –> Multiplying the challenge, we need to realise the Bible books were written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek, further influenced by Septuagint’s Gk and text. And, in a very different culture and historical context: e.g. “slavery” in the Bible, by and large was not like the version we remember from school, textbooks and popular media. [Which in turn was not quite the same as the actual reality that our ancestors faced. (Our bounded rationality and limited exposure constrain our ability to access reality.)]
6 –> These issues have been codified in organised fields of study and bodies of objective knowledge and codes of best practice — e.g. cf Osborne’s The Hermeneutical Spiral.
7 –> Latterly, I find e-Sword and its many classical resources a useful tool to access a lot of the relevant reference works, free — be careful on copyright issues though. (E.g. since UK Crown copyright is perpetual, per force of int’l treaties, 1769 revision of KJV — the common version we use — is technically actually in copyright! De facto, and on much precedent, it is freely available text.)
8 –> Anon is right, and indeed, from personal acquaintance, Carlos is indeed qualified to teach these things. While he may be in error on a point [and I have had my share of disagreements with him!], it is much less likely that he is than that one who has not been through the disciplined exposure required to soundly exegete the scriptures will be.
8 –> That means we are at the level of peer review, folks. No authority is better than his facts, logic and assumptions, but you need to be at the level to address that. So, those of us standing by the Niles Corner/ Ealing Park bus stop next to Roy Smith’s shop down in Ch Ch [as I did for 6th form] should use common sense and seek out the spectrum of informed opinion before drawing our conclusions on controversial points.
9 –> And since there is a hot philosophical controversy over imposition of materialism as a default assumption, we should be aware that rationalism and associated materialist implications often distort what is so confidently presented as if it were settled by the Jesus Seminar or Bishop Spong or the like. (And that takes in a canon or two down in Barbados too . . . )
10 –> I hardly need to add that Dan Brown’s Teabing is an ill-informed melange of speculation, in a novel [and then a movie], not a summary of serious scholarship.
11 –> On Bible prophecy, how you take it hinges on the issues in Ac 17, rom 1:1 – 4, Phil 2:5 – 11 (a C1 creedal hymn) and 1 Cor 15 first: if Jesus died, was buried, rose with 500+ witnesses, according to the scriptures [cf Is 53] and with resurrection power flowing through the church for all its flaws ever since, then we had better heed what he and his spokesmen have to say.
12 –> For what it is worth, my first level take on many such prophecies [and a fair slice of Bible history] is that the patterns laid out reveal examples and driving forces.
13 –> In particular, prophecies in the Bible often had an immediate relevance as well as onward relevance to similar situations across the ages, and may have a culminating relevance at the end of days. So if we see a sufficiently similar situation, these cases serve as reality-anchored examples for us today.
14 –> Which brings us to the stubborn march of folly issue I spoke of above: will we learn form history or are we doomed to repeat it like ignorant, willful fools who will only learn from painful personal loss and harm? [Hint: how many AIDS cases does it take to make us learn that abstinence and/or fidelity, depending on situation, are the only pretty sure preventatives?]
15 –> So, will we learn or will we suffer from our stubborn sinful folly, yet again?
______________
Enough for now, a PS on the main point for the thread aside.
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 7:38 AM
PS: See I missed on a point number, Ouch.
Here is a report that provides some eye-opening balancing reading on what was being paraded across our TV and computer screens and aired so confidently on our radios.
Whether or not we take it all on board, we need to listen. (I can certainly say that over the years of my working with such, I have seen NGO’s and granting agencies habitually acting like this on a number of topics as they have sought to “mainstream” an agenda. There is also a loss of objectivity, fairness and civility problem with our whole civilisation. Read Rom 1:19 – 2:16, Eph 4:17 – 24 and Deut 8:17 – 20 to see the Biblical analysis on why, and where it predictably leads.)
Link — read the Exec Summ even if you don’t read the whole:
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/data/images/File/NGO_Front_Gaza.pdf
Carlos // February 6, 2009 at 7:55 AM
Observer ask; “Would you say ‘Almighty God’ has ‘beauty, complexity, and brilliance?”
Almighty God, who is Absolute, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Immutable, is also Absolutely Holy, Righteous, and Just, for He created ‘Beauty, complexity, and Brilliance, for our benefit. Really, there are no words to describe Him in all that He IS, for we are just given a glimmer from His revelation to us, as contained in His Word, the Bible, as He utterly transcends our concept of ‘beauty, complexity and brilliance, which will only be revealed to those who have placed their trust in Him, through our only Saviour and Lord; The Lord Jesus Christ, when we go to be with Him in Heaven, for then, we shall behold Him in His Holiness, and absolute majestic, eternal splendor.
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 8:56 AM
PPS: A link or two:
1 –> e-Sword, start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Sword
(Make sure to collect Strong’s coded number Bible versions and original language texts. I also think we need to develop a Caribbean version with a suitable set of resources . . . )
2 –> A basic Bible Study primer:
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Leading_Cells/Bible_Study_Skills.htm
3 –> On a basic 101 level world views issues, phil toolkit:
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Intro_phil/toolkit.htm
4 –> On modernist theology etc
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Intro_phil/Mod_Theol.htm
5 –> An easy reading response to Mr Brown et al [~ 6 MB download]
http://joshmcdowellmedia.org/FreeBooks/A%20Quest%20for%20Answers%20The%20Da%20Vinci%20Code.pdf
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 9:05 AM
Carlos,
“Almighty God, who is Absolute, Eternal, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Immutable, is also Absolutely Holy, Righteous, and Just, for He created ‘Beauty, complexity, and Brilliance, for our benefit…”
Where did you get all that from?
Who told you so?
How you know that it is correct?
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 9:27 AM
PPS: Motion Mountain:
http://www.motionmountain.net/
(Warning: 104+ MB, 1612 pp download. But worth it! Physicists and/or physics teachers out there take time to first read the presentation on the General Theory of Relativity! 6th formers and 1st level university physics or engineering students (i.e. if you are still doing survey of physics courses): this is the book that will fill in the gaps in your textbooks!)
Anonymous // February 6, 2009 at 9:29 AM
Fanaticism – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fanaticism is an emotion of being filled with excessive, uncritical zeal, particularly for an extreme religious or political cause or in some cases sports, or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby. According to philosopher George Santayana, “Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim”; according to Winston Churchill, “A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject”.
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 9:41 AM
PPPS: Sigh . . .
ROK, has it ever dawned on you that there may be people out there who *personally know God in a live relationship* of reconciled sonshop or daughterhood, having repented and believed in the once crucified, now risen and Eternally living Christ, our Lord and Saviour?
That some of us like that, therefore know God in his life-transforming, miracle-working, truth revealing resurrection power? [It's not a matter of dry tomes and dead dogmas . . . try Pascal's recorded encounter with the Living God in his Pensees, November 23, 1654 was it!? Yes, THAT Pascal of probability theory, hydrostatics and the unit of pressure; not to mention his famous wager argument!
[His real point was that one who takes the tentative step of reaching out to God, however doubtful s/he may be, will MEET God, removing doubts as the rising sun dispels darkness and fog.]
That, we who have met God take his Scriptures and the creeds drawn from then so subtly and richly [cf "Light of Light" and Heb 1:1 - 4 . . . ] seriously because we personally know the author, even as we may know our mothers?
Or, do I need to point you to Plantinga’s trilogy on Warrant, especially where he — the same Plantinga who so powerfully dispelled the deductive form of the problem of evil — gets around to the warranting power for knowledge of the inner testimony of the Living, indwelling Spirit?
Astrix // February 6, 2009 at 10:02 AM
There are many people who are convinced of aliens , live real aliens in their daily life that come down and take them up to space ships.
This does not stop them being otherwise sensible and sane people, but I am not about to start believing that aliens are visiting earth on their personal experience.
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 10:05 AM
P^4S: Anonymous:
I cannot but infer between your lines given the context of your suggestive remarks in this thread.
1 –> So, let me invite you: why not first look at this here on critical thinking [Note the context of its original composition]:
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Straight_Thinking.pdf
2 –> And, at this here, on a more specific primer (note the intended audience . . . ):
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/AN_APOLOGETICS_PRIMER.pdf
3 –>Not to mention, this here on the REAL problem that started much of this thread, uncritical reading, listening to and viewing of today’s media [no prizes for guessing the typical grades nowadays all the way up to -- sadly -- the BBC (I am now 6+ months into a blood libel complaint with them . . . ) ]:
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/straight_or_spin.htm
4 –> Also, try this on selective hyperskepticism and a corrective, reasonable approach to evidence in light of Simon Greenleaf on evidence [BTW, founding father of the modern theory of evidence -- and a convinced Christian, the onward link to his book is an excellent corrective to C20 - 21 cynicism]:
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Selective_Hyperskepticism.htm
5 –> Again, this is useful, for those enamoured of the new Atheists and their rants:
http://irrationalatheist.com/files/TheIrrationalAtheist.pdf
6 –> Capstone: try this from Canon Dr Michael Green (the same sent by Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, to Barbados in the mid 1990’s):
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/green/runworld/runwcont.htm
I think you may need to rethink on who has been thinking seriously and who has been going along unthinkingly — and often emotionally — with the spirit of the age.
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 10:08 AM
P^5S: Astrix: cf forthcoming link on evidence.
Also, ponder: the existence of the counterfeit is a testimony to the existence and power of the real thing!
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Carlos,
I must say, your definitions are staggering:
“This concept of God, is more akin to the Pantheistic view of God; Pantheism is made up of two words: “pan” meaning “all: and “theos” meaning God”. It is the belief that God is ALL and ALL is God. Pantheism is the theory which regards all finite things as merely aspects or parts of one eternal self-existent being. It holds that there is no God apart from nature, and that everything in nature is part or ‘manifestation’ of God. Trees, birds, flowers, animals, reptiles, etc., are all part of God. Nature itself is God.”
Where did you get this definition of pantheology from?
Pan means all and deos means god. Is that not all gods? Where you get this loaded definition from? Pantheology is the study of all religions accomodated into one hypothesis. Now you come with this pantheism and trying to link it with atheism. You people! Fanatic!
I want to let you know that you are nothing more than a fundamentalist and we all know the folly of that; except you, of course.
How I know? Well your brand of theology leads to war. You advocating war and only fundamentalists resort to war to settle religious disputes. Look at the billigerent way you put over yourself? As if it must be this way or hell fire and brimstone. Yet the truth is, you really do not (can’t) know nor can you ascertain. Religion is all a matter of belief. What truth what!
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 10:18 AM
Dictionary
Are you a parrot? You only understand things when you write them? Well let me re-quote from one of my above posts:
“It has to do with how you live. This is not a book thing. You can’t find it in a book. This is tacit knowledge which can only be described to you but will only be truly felt by you. It cannot be known unless you experience it and you cannot see it if you have not experienced it.”
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 10:34 AM
No ROK
YOU need to look at what you wrote:
>>February 6, 2009 at 9:05 am
Carlos,
“Almighty God, who is Absolute, . . . . ”
****Where**** did you get all that from?
**Who ***** told**** you **** so?**
How you know that it is correct?>>
See my point?
It is implicit — even, rather directly hinted at — that Carlos is at best leaning on secondhand info that he has been told and has uncritically accepted.
I think Carlos will join me in saying that we not only know from traditions and teachings and readings — and that is how we all learned the three Rs and how we who studied sciences learned most of what we know — but we have PERSONALLY met the Author.
So, my rebuttal above is clearly well merited; ROK.
And, I ent no “parrot”!
[Remember who in the end was vindicated when a certain man in Athens was derided as a "spermologos" -- a little seed-picking bird hanging around the market. HINT: Look on the plaque at the RHS of Mars Hill, and ask yourself what is the name of the street on which the Acropolis sits, and what is the name of its extension as you pass by the foot of Mars Hill. Then, as who was in the end vindicated after the events of Ac 17: to whom did the future belong, ROK? The mocking philosophers, the cynical pols or the derided Apostle?]
GEM of TKI
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 10:49 AM
Dictionary
You have not proven a thing? neither have you conhtradicted anything I said. A personal experience is not proof of the intangible. Experiences differ and that is why I use the word tacit. You know what tacit is? It is a personal experience that we cannot even be sure that another person going through similar feelings is experiencing the exact feeling that you did.
There is no explicit or overriding suggestion of a secondhand experience because I know that a firsthand experience is not necessarily ultimate truth. There is still an element of the unknown and unverified in there. So his answer could well have been, “by tacit experience.” So now you know what my response to that would have been.
You guys have a warped and subjective mind. One agenda and very fundamentalist. No ability to see objectivity. See anonymous definition of fanatic above.
Thanks for letting us know that you and Carlos are one.
Anonymous // February 6, 2009 at 11:06 AM
Why is Dictionary asking others to go to his web site for reading?
Kairosfocus and Dictionary is the same person !!
Anonymous // February 6, 2009 at 11:10 AM
Fanaticism – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fanaticism is an emotion of being filled with excessive, uncritical zeal, particularly for an extreme religious or political cause or in some cases sports, or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby. According to philosopher George Santayana, “Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim”; according to Winston Churchill, “A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject”.
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 11:25 AM
Anonymous:
My identity [Cf my initials] is not the issue.
Nor my you properly dismiss matters of substance by pointing out the author.
That is called the ad hominem fallacy, genetic form.
GEM of T**K**I
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 11:44 AM
ROK:
First, as I have already pointed out, there are no proofs beyond all doubt. However, if one as a settled matter doubts the basic facts of his conscious and sometimes rational experience, s/he is properly dismissed as [half-]mad.
For to do so lands one in a morass of self-referential inconsistencies and absurdities. That is, conscious, mentally active existence is self-evident.
Second, in the world of factual lived out experience as intelligent and choosing beings, we know persons through interpersonal encounter.
Interpersonal encounter with God that issues in positive trasnsformatio0n of life, family and culture — delusions are disintegrative, incoherent and destructive [cf Greenleaf on evidence] — is its own warrant.
And, kindly note, I am here discussing ***warrant per open-minded, critically aware inference to best explanation of world and life view [cf the link on phil toolkit supra], relative to factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power***; not some fantasy of absolute proof from universally compelling axioms. indeed, not even in mathematics can we get such.
For, post Godel we know that no sufficiently rich mathematical system has sets of axioms that are both coherent and complete and that there is no constructive procedure for generating coherent albeit limited sets of axioms.
So, I have presented adequate warrant for reasonable consideration; only to be met with selectively hyperskeptical dismissals.
All that that tells me is that you are being incoherent at a deep level; for you must commit to faith points that would at once fall aside if the same criteria you used above were exerted on a fair basis.
By contrast, I hold to my worldview in a context where I have looked, seriously, at alternatives that were at the time live options — I am not uncritically begging the question at grand metaphysical level.
In concluding that where I am is well warranted, part of that is that I have come to know and relate to God even as I have come to know and relate to my Mother, my father, my wife and our children. I know God as I know other minds [note, I have not said bodies or brains].
So, while i am a part of a tradition, it is not merely by report and teachings that I have come to know the reality of God in the face of Christ.
As with Pascal, I have met the Author for myself, and I trust him to know what he is writing about.
Have you?
GEM of TKI
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 12:07 PM
These fellows for real? Only goes to show how far these fellows would go to prove a point.
But you check the contents though? It don’t even support what he/she is saying.
I think that it is Dictionary who is attempting to use the ad hominem genetic fallacy when he tries to use his/her own authorship of something to prove a point. No basis for an argument to try to use yourself as an authority. You so hungry to be right? Right or wrong = correct?
To whom the argument is address is asked to look from whom the argument came for proof of the argument.
Wow! Well “ad” (Latin) = to or from. We got to call this one the “Ad hominem”, “Ad hominem” Effect of Fanatic Theology. Wow! Fanatheism?
Maybe pronounced fana-theism or is it fan-atheism?
Chris Halsall // February 6, 2009 at 12:25 PM
@Dictionary: “For, post Godel we know that no sufficiently rich mathematical system has sets of axioms that are both coherent and complete and that there is no constructive procedure for generating coherent albeit limited sets of axioms.
So, then let me please ask you this:
How would you explain a sphere to a circle?
The same thing, when you get down to it (r == n). Simply an extra dimension within which to apply the equation.
But if all the circle understands is X and Y, how do you explain to it the concept of Z?
Or, for that matter Time (T)?
For context, there are humans walking around right now who are thinking in 11 dimensions. (Read: super-string theorists.) The human mind is an amazing thing.
Personally, I believe that all Gods are real — if for no other reason that people believe in them.
My personal issue is when people try to tell me (or anyone else, for that matter) that *their* God is the “correct” and “only” God.
They might be right; they’re probably wrong.
And I would argue there’s great communal risk in getting this particular question wrong….
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 12:33 PM
ROK (and onlookers):
Again:
I have explicitly invited consideration on the merits.
That is a plain fact in this thread and in the linked items – remember, that includes a chapter form a course reader in a phil course, on the phil toolkit.
To try to turnabout that into a false accusation that I am pretending to be a “pope” speaking “ex cathedra,” is beyond ridiculous.
(FYI, I have invited you to comparative difficulties per inference to best explanation across worldviews, including our basic experience of ourselves as conscious, mental, choosing, moral and morally bound creatures. Creatures who relate to other minds. Including here, God.)
Indeed, what is now happening yet again is a familiar tactic:
1 –> Red herrings dragged to distract from the track of truth, leading out to strawman caricatures soaked in oil of ad hominem.
2 –> Ignite and
3 –> voila, distraction, clouds of confusion and noxious polarising smoke, so the truth is lost sight of.
As we J’cans say: Cho man, do betta dan dat!
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 12:47 PM
CH:
You are simply raising an irrelevancy.
Go to Wikipedia and start with that ever so humble source on the import of Godel’s incompleteness theorems.
You will see that the point I ma making is a serious one. Namely that classical proofs are dead. Dead since about 1930. (And recall, logic is a branch of mathematics.)
Post Plantinga we are in the age of reasonable, but in principle defeatable warrant: reasonable faith.
That leads to the logic of inference to best explanation and the question at worldviews level of comparative difficulties across live options. As I discussed in more details than is warranted here in an already linked lecture.
And for strings it is up to 26 or 27 dims for some things.
In Q-theory, with matrices of unlimited dims, the number is beyond count. in Leontief type economics, it is 100+ dim matrices to analyse economies.
So, learn to think vectors and matrices and tensors. And while we are at it, learn to think complex frequency domain [Laplace] and operator mathematics too — as well as discrete time [difference eqns] not just analogue time.
but that is distration.
the substance is warrant on worldviews.
i and millions have met God in the face of Christ, in miracle working life transforming power, power that — for all the sins of Christendom and the churches in it [let him who is without . . ."] — has positively shaped civilisations time and again.
So, I invite you to take a read of Ac 17 from about v 16 on and let us go to a certain limestone — or is it metamorphosed somewhat? — outcrop in Athens.
Where do you sit?
With Dionysius or with the mocking majority of the Council?
Why?
And, on the subsequent history, who will shape the future — again?
GEM of TKI
JC // February 6, 2009 at 12:57 PM
Chris I have grown to respect and admire you immensely. However, I think you are tooooooo logical! I think you should start to ask the question
What if ………….. hmmmm just think about it
respectfully, JC
I like ROK’s logic to some extent!
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 1:01 PM
OK Dictionary, first, let’s get some ground rules out of the way.
“for you must commit to faith points that would at once fall aside if the same criteria you used above were exerted on a fair basis”
What is that? According to Chris, you falling back on pre-suppositions? My way is to fill the void. If it can’t be filled with my intelligence and understanding, leave it open until the time comes when it can be filled.
For me, you either know or don’t know.
“I believe”, means that you may or may not be correct. Either way you still will not know so long as you cannot bring the matter out of the realm of belief or doubt. I am not willing to commit anything in this discussion to faith.
Can you deal with that? Let’s see where we can agree??
Anonymous // February 6, 2009 at 1:09 PM
@ Dictionary
You are debating an issue, you point others to web pages for reading in order to understand better, your points.
The web links are yours, as Dictionary and Kairosfocus are the same person.
Whether there is substance or not to be found there, the method used by you, seems to me to be, …Deceptive.
JC // February 6, 2009 at 1:12 PM
ROK Chris is just something else ha ha LOL! I still believe in what if!
At least one comment which starts with what if will be right! I still think that Chris is STRESS AT TIMES to logical!
I wonder what his wife/girlfriend puts up with him! lol
She probalbly has to love him unconditionally! LOL
Chris Halsall // February 6, 2009 at 1:28 PM
@Dictionary: “You are simply raising an irrelevancy.
I humbly argue the exact opposite.
I ask my above questions for very specific reasons. You see, I know where the answers lead…
@D: “Go to Wikipedia and start with that ever so humble source on the import of Godel’s incompleteness theorems.
With respect, kind Sir, please note that it was myself, above, who /raised/ the work of Gödel.
Therefore, it might be safe to assume I don’t need to go reference Wikipedia — I have read his work. And, much more importantly, I *understand* its *ramifications*.
Please, kind Sir, trust me when I tell you that my reading list is vast.
To summarize my fundamental point for you, if I may…
The Sciences has known for some time now that it *cannot* answer all questions with *absolute* certainty.
We find ourselves comfortable with this.
We still seem to be able to predict the probable future, when asked to and when provided with required inputs, with far more accuracy than any other discipline.
Very specifically, this admission of universal indeterminism does *not* mean the Sciences are not worth considering….
JC // February 6, 2009 at 1:32 PM
ha ha ha ha only CH! ha ha
Carlos // February 6, 2009 at 1:32 PM
ROK: The more you write, the more you confirm the utter depth of the vacuum within your mind (soul), and the barrenness of your intellect to even try and understand, let alone comprehend, the erudite postings of GEM of TKI, for what little he has shared, as it is only scratching the tip of the solid, cogent, valid, satisfactory theological, philosophical, factual reasoning, which you are obviously unable to begin to fathom or perceive; so what to then do? Rather than try and learn something of the objective manner in which one has to approach this subject matter, you resort to ad hominem, and fallacious, illogical, reasonless gibberish.
It is truly a privilege for BU to have GEM of TKI, take time out of his extremely busy schedule, to share a little of his vast knowledge on such a wide range of vitally important subjects, that many are ignorant of, only to have scoffers like yourself, stupidly failing to appreciate the content of this learned scholar.
BTW, ROK, apart from miscontruing the meaning of ‘Pantheism’ you then create a word that’s not even in the dictionary ‘Pantheology’ maybe the ‘father’ of all lies gave you this one; as he is the originator of all false gods.
The study of religions, is rightly called, ‘Comparative Religions’ but most certainly not Pantheology.
anon // February 6, 2009 at 1:46 PM
Carlos
Why are you wasting your time with ROK?
Be reminded of the teachings of 1 Corinthians 2 especially verse 14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 1:46 PM
JC
My problem is that I don’t want to continue long postings like Carlos. He is very verbose and therefore not everything he writes I will answer or even deserves an answer in my view. A lot of it is very repetitive and I am really tired of that kind of discussion as it goes nowhere.
Look at Dictionary. I think he taking his/her name to heart. What is this phil tool kit. I don’t tell you about those things. They have no weight in this discussion. Give us the essence of your thoughts on the matter I believed was raised by Bush Tea.
Not to veer off the point too far, but I would much like you to answer the question, who is the God of the Bible and whether or not that god is the same one you think about being omniscient, omnipresent, etc. and created this world?
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 1:52 PM
anon
what is the meaning of “natural” man? You are so bright.
anon // February 6, 2009 at 1:58 PM
Look it up! Or ask Canon Goodridge! Or give “your take” as usual. Or ask any teenager who attends any good Bible believing and Bible teaching church in Barbados or anywhere in the world, for the meaning of this basic NT concept.
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 2:08 PM
Carlos,
Man I want you to know that what I forget you aint learn yet;
First reference – Online Dictinonary:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pantheology
Pantheology:
1. Obsolete, all that is contained in theology.
2. a comprehensive, synthetic theology that covers all gods and religious systems. — pantheologist, n. — pantheologic, pantheological, adj.
Second reference:
http://www.allwords.com/word-pantheology.html
Pantheology
noun (pantheologies)
A system of theology embracing all religions; a complete system of theology.
Third Reference:
PANTHEOLOGY
Noun
1. A system of theology embracing all religions; a complete system of theology.
Source: Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary
Fourth Reference:
The Pantheist Index
Pantheology: Pantheist philosophy concerning the nature of the divine
http://www.pantheist-index.net/Pantheology/
I rest my case. Check your oxford too.
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 2:12 PM
anon
Yes, I know you would want me to ask the dead who can’t respond. Are you referring to Canon Seon Goodridge?
Man, I asked you a direct question. Are you afraid to contradict yourself?
Chris Halsall // February 6, 2009 at 2:36 PM
@JC… I appreciate your kind words.
And to answer your questions — yes, those who find themselves near me regularly are truly angels. I love working with them all.
@JC: “I still believe in what if!
With a nod to you, so do I. Every day I ask myself at least once the “big” question: what if.
If I may get just a little personal here, it was a significant moment in my life when I decided to become an agnostic, rather than an atheist.
If I may share, this was only some little while after first understanding Quantum Uncertainty, and the Mandelbrot set.
Observer // February 6, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Dictionary/Gem/ GP/ anon/ Carlos
all the same person
Observer // February 6, 2009 at 3:02 PM
Chris,
on your personal note, the terms are not mutually exclusive (but in your case granted you may ‘only’ be agnostic)
Technician // February 6, 2009 at 3:05 PM
anon // February 6, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Look it up! Or ask Canon Goodridge! Or give “your take” as usual. Or ask any teenager who attends any good Bible believing and Bible teaching church in Barbados or anywhere in the world, for the meaning of this basic NT concept.
re there BAD bible believing and teaching churches in Barbados ?
If so, how can we tell..I/we need to know.
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 3:09 PM
CH:
Sigh: >> my reading list is vast . . . >>
You make me wonder, that you resort to such. But, if we are to move beyond that level, I must condescend to such for at least a moment . . . pardon onlookers; this is not my habit.
Now, as I write this, I am sitting next to about 100 shelf feet of personal library [after giving away a little short of about as much again here and in Jamaica -- comes the point where books just too heavy and bulky, mon]. That does not count the resources of the universities and seminaries whose librarians became my personal friends. Nor the bookshops in three or four countries who had me as a fav customer. [Tell the folks at Cloister hi for me, C. Same for Mrs Myrna T over by Probyn street, and Grace F and gang over by CLC. And Willy -- how's dey bitin mon!?]
So, let us put away such childish follies, nuh? (Such are utterly irrelevant to warrant.)
Now, on substance, at last a light goes on:
>> The Sciences has known for some time now that it *cannot* answer all questions with *absolute* certainty. >>
1 –> Yep, and a humbling lesson it was too; esp. when the wonderful edifice of classical physics came crashing into the world of the very fast and the very small, from about 1880 on.
2 –> Now; if only we will learn the lesson of Job 38:
>>1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place . . . >>
3 –> So, let us not confuse reasonable reliability for scientific explanatory models with truth in the Aristotelian sense: >> that which says of what is, that it is, and of what is not, that it is not>> [Metaphysics, 1011b, paraphrased.]
4 –> Especially, as YHWH said, when it comes to the remote, unobserved, unrepeatable; deep past.
5 –> But it gets deeper than that. For, as I noted above, *Godel’s surprising results of 1930 mean that proof in the classical sense is dead.* The world of the mind is thus irreducibly complex and we cannot compass it with a finite net of coherent axioms.
6 –> Going further, as we try to prove A, we end up at B, which in turn needs C, . . . until we face the alternative of an infinite regress or else a point where we accept somethings as first plausibles, for whatever reason. These mark out our *faith points*; defining the cores of our worldviews. [And I insist it is high time we recognise this as a word in its own right in English!]
7 –> At that stage, it is a matter of comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power, if we are to avoid circularity or fatal inconsistency.
8 –> Which in turn means that *the arrogance of scientism is at an end*: If theory T then observations O; observations O so far, so T i so; is affirming the consequent — a logical fallacy that confuses implication for equivalence. Ability to predict is a test of reliability within some range of tested validity, but not of truth. [Worse, widely divergent theories, much less worldviews, can be largely or even wholly empirically equivalent.]
9 –> Worse, evolutionary materialism, the institutionally dominant form of scientism, is demonstrably incoherent, once it is asked to account for the credibility of the mind per its materialistic dynamics and assumptions. (I won’t bother to give some links to more details on this just now, I have an accusation of deception for the “crime” of doing that to address . . .
10 –> So, CH, we are at the point where we must all live by faith, the question is in what and whom, why. reasonable faith is the best we can hope for, some would say — and given our bounded rationality, limited knowledge and proneness to error, they have a point — *relatively* reasonable faith at that.
11 –> In that context, I *report*, with millions over the years, including a goodly number of the brightest deepest minds ever, minds that have shaped the course of history decisively — e.g. Paul is the real founder of our civilisation as we know it; having synthesised the heritage of Jerusalem, Athens and Rome through Christ — that I have come to know God as I know other minds, in the face of the once crucified, now risen, transforming Jesus of Nazareth.
___________
So now, CH: whose report do you believe, why?
GEM of TKI
Observer // February 6, 2009 at 3:24 PM
mental illness is truly disturbing to see close at hand
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 3:28 PM
Anonymous:
>> the method used by you, seems to me to be, …Deceptive. >> [ February 6, 2009 at 1:09 pm ]
And, onlookers, wherein lieth this “deception”?
Why: >>You are debating an issue, you point others to web pages for reading in order to understand better, your points.
The web links are yours, as Dictionary and Kairosfocus are the same person.
Whether there is substance or not to be found there, the method used by you, seems to me to be, …Deceptive.>>
This is both nonsensical and slanderous.
For, I have referred those who need to see more off-site to several detailed sources, including some I have compiled and compressed over the years from many tens of thousands of pages of reading and research. (Some of those linked pages even state plainly that no authority is better than his facts and reasoning relative to those facts . . . which is where I invite us to focus, always.)
FYI, whoever you are, it is obviously *not* deceptive to provide further details, balancing perspectives and substantiating information..
For shame!
And, if you now imagine to accuse me of pretending to be a different person from the one who has signed his works online, why then did I use my initials an those of my consultancy personality at every stage up above?
In short, onlookers, someone hiding behind anonymity is simply tryintg the old ad hominem fallacy: attack the man and you distract attention from the substance.
So, recognise the sleazy tactic for what it is, and then let us address the substance.
Finally, you are greatly mistaken, sir A, if you imagine I am interested in *debate*:
>> . . . that wicked art that makes the worse appear the better case, being therein aided and abetted by the deceptive arts of rhetoric: those of *persuasion*, not proof.>> [Jefferson, echoing Socrates, paraphrased.]
My intention was, is, and ever shall be very different indeed: **on being asked to provide some balance and perspective on some issues where conventional wisdom and what is sound are vastly divergent, I have sought to engage in *dialogue* guided by reason and objective evidence.**
And, I suspect, so some benefit; at least to some onlookers.
Now, sirs, good day.
GEM of TKI
Chris Halsall // February 6, 2009 at 3:28 PM
@Mr. Chairman: “Thank you Mr. Dictionary”
@Mr. Chairman: “Mr. Halsall. Do you wish to cross examine?”
No. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In my opinion, there’s no “there” there.
And, therefore, there’s no need to cross examine.
I feel comfortable leaving Mr. Dictionary’s response to stand (or fail) on its own merits.
Thank you Mr. Chairman, et al….
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 3:32 PM
PS: As to the matter in the main, I have long since addressed it. On the secondary matters that have come up, I believe I have now doe so also. As to the notion that the tools of serious analysis — the phil toolkit and simpler and supplementary forms of the same basic matter — are irrelevant to a situation in which gross error traces to their neglect; that is its own refutation.
Dictionary // February 6, 2009 at 3:35 PM
PPS: CH: that one is called whistling by the graveyard in the dark.
This duppy has something to say:
“BOO!”
JC // February 6, 2009 at 3:40 PM
Not to veer off the point too far, but I would much like you to answer the question, who is the God of the Bible and whether or not that god is the same one you think about being omniscient, omnipresent, etc. and created this world?
__________________________
@ ROK
At first I beleived in the traditional Bible beliefs of who God is. HOWEVER,I am like you; I believe in PRINCIPLES, ETHICS AND MORALS and RETRIBUTION!
Like you, I believe that God lives within man. Yet, he gave us a brain to truly seek and COMPREHEND who and what he is ….. I think that we can never truly understand everything unless we seek the truth!
Therefore, as I have gotten older I have realised that GOD IS LOVE!
Carlos // February 6, 2009 at 3:43 PM
Anon, I’ll answer ROK’s question, “What is the meaning of ‘natural’ man?”
To understand the context of what the Word of God says concering the ‘natural’ man, let’s pickup from Paul’s first Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 2 verse 6.
“However, we (Christians) speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet NOT in the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.” (v. 6).
First, Paul in not here drawing a distinction between ‘exoteric’ and ‘esoteric’ wisdom as the Gnostics did for their initiates, but simply to the difference in teaching babes (3:1) and adults or grownmen (common us of teleios for relative perfection, for adults as in I Cor. 14:20; Phil 3:15; eph. 4:13; Heb. 5:14). As some were simply old babes and unable in spite of their years to digest solid spiritual food, “ample teaching as to the Person of Christ and the eternal purpose of God.
For this ‘wisdom’ of God, does NOT belong to this passing age of fleeting things, but to the enduring and eternal (Ellicott).
“But we speak (believers) the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden mystery which God ordained before the ages for our glory.” (v.7).
“Which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (v.8).
“For it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
“But God has revealed them to us (believers) through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.” (v. 9).
“Now, we have received not the spirit of this world, BUT the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.” (v. 12).
“These things we also speak, NOT in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (v.13).
“But the ‘natural’ man (psuchikos de anthropos, an spiritually unregenerate man) DOES NOT receive, cannot receive) the things of the Spirit of God, for they (are what?) FOOLISHNESS to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (v. 14).
“But he who is spiritual ( Born Again, spiritually regenerated) judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.” (v.15).
Therefore, the ‘natural’ man, who is not ‘Saved’ is everyone who has not repented, and by faith, received Christ as Saviour and Lord, it makes no difference if he is a Ph.D in astro physics, or the common garbage collector.
The issue here is that ’secular’ wisdom is ‘foolishness’ to God and His infinite wisdom, which He has given in some measure to those who love Him, and The Lord Jesus Christ.
Hence, the ‘natural’ man, is spiritually unregenerate, and therefore frustratingly, unable to make any sense of God’s Spiritual wisdom, which is ‘foolishness’ to them.
Chris Halsall // February 6, 2009 at 3:45 PM
@Dictionary: “PPS: CH: that one is called whistling by the graveyard in the dark. This duppy has something to say: “BOO!”
So, then, @Dictionary…
Is it unreasonable to interpret your language immediately above as a death threat?
As in, if I’m found dead tomorrow, would it be unreasonable to conclude that you *might* be responsible?
…Just asking….
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 5:00 PM
Carlos,
I have to wonder about you. I just googled natural man out of curiousity (about the 2nd or 3rd time randomly) and it is so funny and coincidental that the first reference coming up, is the same one you giving above. Who and what are you?
However! The definition I know of natural man is:
People whose manner of life and experience is guided by their natural desires and instincts, rather than by any theological theory or concept of God. As some say, people guided by their noses; animals.
This is a way of life and is reportedly the state of early man. However, I put this into the category of propaganda that served the imperialists and also into the category of religious power play that now serves Christians like you.
A quick look at African history, will probably not trace a time when Africans were not spiritual or did not have a concept of God or even of the super natural.
Before the Hebrews came, the Egyptian civilisation was based on a plethora of gods and the idea of a Supreme God. (and I really looking forward to your response to that comment, Carlos)
Now I would like to show observers how misleading people like Carlos are. I asked for the meaning of two words. In answer to the question, the man places the words within a context and then proceeded to place a Biblical explanation on the word. Why?
Because he now wants to change the meaning of the words to mean all non-believers. This implies that the men who lived in those early days had no concept of natural man. I put it to you that their concept of natural man was understood better then than you could even imagine now.
By then, the term was a dying one and there were few men that did not understand morality, retribution, etc. and therefore capable of understanding the concept of a supreme being.
As a matter of fact, I would argue that much of the fundamentals of the Christian faith is based on a rationalisation of Egyptian culture and religion. It laid a base and Christianity may be considered a modification of it. I am not sure how to put it but certainly to say it was an improvement on Egyptian religion may really not be accurate. Maybe simplification of Egyptian religion may be a better description.
You like research. Do the research. Check and see how far back Egyptian civilisation is dated by science and compare it with the beginning of the world according to the Bible.
I am beginning to doubt that you are who you say you are Carlos. I think you were planted. Maybe by the Israelis.
I have been watching you. I think that you are cutting and pasting directly from google searches. I further believe that you do not have the knowledge you say you have, you arguing by bare cut and paste and that is why your posts are so long.
I would be very glad if David or somebody put a study on your posts and see if you not cutting and pasting. I just don’t have the time for you and that.
Loizeaux // February 6, 2009 at 5:29 PM
Mr Rok
I can see that you really understand the Bible. Can you answer a few questions for me?
What is the purpose of the Book of Ruth?
Does it has any relation or relevance to the teachings of the New Testament? And if so what is the relationship? Thank you
Straight talk // February 6, 2009 at 5:30 PM
I’m happy to be a mere natural man.
From reading all the above mumbo-jumbo I’d rather leave these unprovable arguments to you unnatural men to ponder over until the rapture overtakes us all….or not.
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Loizeaux
I really don’t know enough to answer that question. I did not even know there was a relationship. You are another incarnation of Carlos?
anon // February 6, 2009 at 5:55 PM
@Rok
“I asked for the meaning of two words. In answer to the question, the man places the words within a context and then proceeded to place a Biblical explanation on the word. Why?”
In the CONTEXT of 1 Corinthians 2, Carlos has answered you correctly. Without googling anything, I can tell you that that is the same thing that I was taught in the “Bible teaching” Baptist at which I was discipled in Bridgetown many years ago. It is the explanation in the leading Bible commentaries that I have read also.
Anon raised the verse 1 Cor 2:14 which is a scripture that all believers are taught to memorize very early in thier spiritual walk. As a professing Christian, Carlos not only correctly interpreted the passage in its context, but he gave it a Biblical explanation as you said. What else could he have said. He went so far as to indicate what greek word was translated as “natural man.”
In contrast you rattled on ad nauseam ad infinitumque with little substance, as you gave us “your take” as usual.
Observer // February 6, 2009 at 6:00 PM
anon writes :
“Carlos has answered you correctly”
“Carlos not only correctly interpreted the passage in its context, but he gave it a Biblical explanation”
====================
I think there is medication you can get for this
Observer // February 6, 2009 at 6:01 PM
anon writes :
“Anon raised the verse 1 Cor 2:14 which is a scripture that all believers are taught to memorize very early in thier spiritual walk”
===============
did you forget who you are?
cant be easy I guess
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 6:13 PM
@anon
I asked for a definition not a Biblical interpretation. See how the man loaded the scriptures? I must now accept the definition of natural man as the one proffered by Biblical explanation?
I done with you all, man. There is no veering away from your common religious fanatic agendas. Dictionary, Carlos, anon, et al, continue smartly. I have been assured by Tech, Observer and JC that you preaching to the wind.
I notice that I ain’t hearing Bush Tea. It would be good to explore some more personal philosophy. BT I promise I will not let them side-track me anymore. I would be glad if you would respond to my response to you. Lay a base and let’s go forward, there is a lot to get through.
I also see JC putting forward some philosophy too. Let’s go. I am sure that the audience would be glad for something fresh like this.
Technician // February 6, 2009 at 6:27 PM
I would ban Bush Tea from BU… :-)
Look at all this from your submission on Jan 1 2009…
I just wish some could just speak in layman terms so that ignorant, uneducated miscreants like me could just start to understand some of the words without reaching for the dictionary (not the poster) or Google or the KJV.
I swear I was back at Foundation listening to Mr.Reid in one of his Latin (yes, I had to do the damn subject) classes or Mr.Gilpin Jones going on during one of his philosophical flash backs.
We other illiterates want to learn too but please fellows…..in bite size chunks ……I here choking on these big words..:-)
anon // February 6, 2009 at 6:31 PM
Rok
Let me say it again
“Anon raised the verse 1 Cor 2:14 which is a scripture that all believers are taught to memorize very early in thier spiritual walk”
Call it definition; call it Biblical interpretation, call it what you like but certainly in the circles that I have been in within my Christian experience, once you quote that verse, the explanation Carlos gave is the one to expect.
Just as I would expect you in answer to the question put by Loizeaux to say that the story of the book of Ruth is related to the NT teaching of redemption by grace as taught in Ephesians chapter 2.
But that is another subject.
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 6:58 PM
Thank you anon for the explanation.
Carlos // February 6, 2009 at 7:59 PM
Mr. ROK!
Please ask David or anyone else, to ‘…put a study on your posts and see if you not cutting and pasting…” from Google!
I would welcome that, as it would entirely vindicate me from your false assumptions! Go right ahead!
To Professor Chris H:
You thought you could come down here (in the Caribbean) with your lofty North American, ever so vastly read, self-imposed arrogance, and get away with it?
Man, you met your match in GEM of TKI, and he didn’t even warm up in dealing with you; he would run circles around you, like a Cat, no a Lion, playing with a half dead Rat!
Observer // February 6, 2009 at 8:11 PM
no actually I think chris realised only one player had a full deck
ccorps // February 6, 2009 at 8:25 PM
@ Technician
**************************************
I would ban Bush Tea from BU… :-)
**************************************
Cud dear Tech, give the Bushman a break – I had no idea it would come to this….
I was even trying to get ROK to engage in some simple logical deduction to see if we can develop a reasoned concept about these matters, but the man blank me and gone off talking with his bright friends in some strange language…
You see why I like MME now? although he bright like a stadium light he does make things sound fairly simple.
All I would like to discuss is things like this-
If we agree that there is a God who even brighter than MME – surely he would has a sensible plan for our life and this world….
surely it would be logical, and understandable by bright people like ROK – and especially by the Halsall fellow who obviously knows everything
and surely there must be a reason why this vital information has been so difficult to find and comprehend….
…someone must have answers – and Carlos, I mean fairly short answers for me and Techie – cause you like you join the PDC or something…LOL
Georgie Porgie // February 6, 2009 at 9:18 PM
“surely there must be a reason why this vital information has been so difficult to find and comprehend….”
It is in one sense, and it isnt in another. It is if you have someone to help you put the pieces of the gig saw together, or good books and the time. It isn’t, because most folk don’t have the patience to help. I hope what I write below is simple enough and not too long.
I believe as was stated on this thread by another that it is It is very important for all Bible students to have some system which they employ to work their way through the Bible. The divisions below, which I have used for over 30 years were taken from Ray Baugham’s Bible History Visualized, Moody Press 1963, but similar classifications that are just as useful may be found in The Visualized Bible. The division of the Bible that I have used for analysis in this study is as follows:
•CREATION. Genesis 1& 2
•CONSCIENCE. Genesis 3 &4
•CAPTAIN NOAH. Genesis 5-9
•CONFUSION OF TONGUES. Genesis 10-11
•CALL OF ABRAM. Genesis 11-50
•CARRYING BURDENS. Exodus 1-15
•CAMP. Rest of Exodus, Numbers Leviticus Deuteronomy (fairly tough going so most quit by the time they get here- just skip these and come back later but you wont really master the OT unless you master these books, because the OT writers are always harping back to these laws)
•CONQUEST. Joshua Judges Ruth
•CROWN. I &2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings 1 & 2 Chronicles read with the Pre exhilic prophets
•CAPTIVITY. Exhilic Prophets Exekiel & Daniel
•CONSTRUCTION. Ezra Nehemiah Esther and the Post Exhilic Prophets (Haggai Zechariah Malachi)
Read Sapiental literature on the side Psalms Proverbs Songs Ecclesiastes Job
•CROSS. Gospels
•CHURCH. Acts, Epistles
•COMING OF CHRIST. Revelation some parts of Epistles
•CONDEMNATION. Much of Revelation
•CONSUMATION. Revelation last two chapters
Ray Baugham advises one to memorize the 16 ‘C” words above and then over time you will flesh out the information, and make correlations.
For example, over time you will connect the story of Cain & Abel in Genesis 4 with the references to these two brothers in Hebrews 11, Jude and 1 John 3. And you will notice that in I John 2 that sin is classifies as falling into three categories thus, lust of the eyes lust of the flesh and pride of life.
Then you might note that Adam & Eve failed in this regard in Genesis 3, just as we do now, but that Jesus passed this test as recorded in Mathew 4 & Luke 4.
Most Bible students read the Bible once a year, so after a while they know most of the narratives, and have problems mainly with interpreting the Prophetic Scriptures, the Wisdom literature and the last four books of the Pentateuch.
I found that such a simple plan help me to memorize wade through and analyze the Word. This is a good start.
Then you can look into BOOK by BOOK starting with the short books like 2 John 3 John Jude Philemon Titus etc You can do this using what aids available to you. Now a lot of good info is on the net that is helpful, like Dr Constable’s Notes or Ray Stedman. At least that’s how I started. When you get the grasp of a number of books over time you start to see the correlations with other books you have studied already, and it tends to get easier.
Revelation becomes easy if you have got a fair grasp of the other prophetic Scriptures, and see this book as a river into which the tributaries of other prophecies enter.
Rev Dr Dick Hertz // February 6, 2009 at 9:19 PM
Some Einstein quotes:
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.
A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.
There are few really profound problems of the human condition that cannot be solved by rice and peas and stew washed down by some lemonade. (OK this is not from Einstein but a Rev Dr Dick Hertz original!)
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 9:31 PM
@JC
“Like you, I believe that God lives within man. Yet, he gave us a brain to truly seek and COMPREHEND who and what he is ….. I think that we can never truly understand everything unless we seek the truth! Therefore, as I have gotten older I have realised that GOD IS LOVE!”
…………………………………………………………….
I think you are on the right track. Keep LOVE in focus and you can’t go wrong.
One thing I would say is that there is a magic about life that happens when thought and action are simultaneous.
There are also a lot of lessons in oriental and African religious principles too. Focussed energy or what I called nervous energy is extremely powerful.
Let me tell you some of the experiences I have had. I definitely need to get back on track. These things would happen as a matter of course:
1. When the telephone rings you know who is at the other end before you pick up.
2. Think hard about somebody and imagine them right there in your presence and they will either call or turn up.
3. In driving, you know whether traffic is around a blind corner or not.
4. I once broke a new wheel tool in half on a stubborn nut with my bare hands; nervous energy.
5. You are always in a knick of time to get what you want; or whatever it is that you want, turns up.
6. Whatever you do, even against all odds, it turns out your way; sometimes miraculously, so long as you are sufficiently focussed on it.
7. You are always able to call a spade and see things before they happen.
There is much more, but having had the experience, I wondered if this is the state Christ spoke about. Here I was having a powerful experience without any focus on the Bible or Christianity.
All men can reach this state of consciousness and beyond. Imagine a world where everybody is like that. Politicians would have a hard time getting away with corruption.
To me, this was living proof of the power that lies within us all. One thing you must never do is abuse those powers and never blame yourself for anything or go into depression. It can turn back on you, like how the Scorpion would sting itself.
It calls for spiritual strength, mental energy and a responsibility to oneself and one’s neighbours.
Bush Tea // February 6, 2009 at 9:47 PM
@ ROK
Perhaps I can explain some of your phenomena-
1. When the telephone rings you know who is at the other end before you pick up.
—–You only have ONE friend!
2. Think hard about somebody and imagine them right there in your presence and they will either call or turn up.
—–You only have one friend!
3. In driving, you know whether traffic is around a blind corner or not.
___Traffic is ALWAYS everywhere in Bdos
4. I once broke a new wheel tool in half on a stubborn nut with my bare hands; nervous energy.
– Faulty (cheap) wheel tool…
5. You are always in a knick of time to get what you want; or whatever it is that you want, turns up.
- You only have one friend!
6. Whatever you do, even against all odds, it turns out your way; sometimes miraculously, so long as you are sufficiently focussed on it.
–You are not particular.
7. You are always able to call a spade and see things before they happen.
– HUH?
…just pulling your legs ROK, I understand what you mean.
ROTFL
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 9:49 PM
@ccorps
I can’t remember seeing anything from you unless you is somebody else here like Bush Tea.
Bush Tea // February 6, 2009 at 9:54 PM
sorry ROK. I was experimenting. That is Bush Tea.
Bush Tea // February 6, 2009 at 10:15 PM
@ GP
Have you considered that the information has been difficult to find and comprehend because it is deliberately DESIGNED to be incomprehensible.
Did Jesus not speak in parables specifically to ensure that those listening DID NOT understand him?
This makes lots of sense, otherwise it would mean that truth would be reserved for the ‘bright’ ones of this world…(a frightening thought LOL)
My understanding is that a freely available ‘KEY’ then makes it all understandable to anyone who chooses to access that ‘key’…
…sounds like the kind of plan that MME would conceive….LOL
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 10:16 PM
Bush Tea
Man I thought I had lost you for truth.
Can we agree that there is a God?
To my mind, it really does not matter what you call it, but if you ask me if i think there is something there that is powerful, I can agree with that.
Now, even if we call it God, we still need to be clear about what we are talking about. I am talking about that same force as I described above and more. The force I felt inside of me and the force I see in action around me.
Now if we are talking of the God referred to in the Bible, are we talking the same language? According to the experts, this God is not part of you, this God created you and is a force and entity unto itself. The great Spirit; the Supreme.
BT, where are we here? Are you with me? Your thoughts.
Bush Tea // February 6, 2009 at 10:30 PM
We are good so far ROK. In fact you are way ahead of me, for the purpose of our exercise I am willing to accept only that some more intelligent (than us) force is responsible for the design and order that we experience daily. (Forget the bible – we will get to that)
My inclination is to call that force BBE (Big Boss Engineers) based on the intricate and complex designs.
Now here is the question…
Why would an intelligent BBE create the reality that we experience all around us with it’s great beauty but also great suffering and sorrows?
What is the OVERALL objective?
…and if the answer is more than one paragraph, I won’t buy it….
Georgie Porgie // February 6, 2009 at 10:36 PM
Bush Tea
I know that the Word is difficult to comprehend and that it has been so designed. But the Scriptures teach in Hebrews 11:6 that that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Those that diligently seek him understand. The Scriptures teach that God tells his people what he is going to do, and this is a theme that can be traced through the Bible.
As prophesized in Isaiah Jesus speak in parables specifically to ensure that those listening who were not truly interested did not understand him. Nothing has changed today. I agree with you that this makes lots of sense, otherwise it would mean that truth would be reserved for the ‘bright’ ones of this world.
A freely freely available ‘KEY’ might only make the message understandable to those who want to understand even if they have access to the key. This seems to be what 1 Cor 2:14 is saying. This is of course a Key scripture (no pun intended).
Re …sounds like the kind of plan that MME would conceive….LOL Probably so. Bright folk tend to present issues simply. Although I was worried about MME last evening when he added all the variables to the simple P1V1= P2V2 that we had problems with at school. But I guess we have to forgive him because he is a good boy at heart.
You yourself tend to present the truth but like to speak in parables thus muddying up the waters for the “weaker brethren.”
JC // February 6, 2009 at 10:51 PM
@ ROK
fah real I think I know what you mean (at least most of those incidences/experiences that you have mentioned are familiar, cant wait to experience the rest!)
Bush Tea // February 6, 2009 at 10:57 PM
@ GP
“You yourself…..but like to speak in parables thus muddying up the waters for the “weaker brethren.”
****************************************
That is a low blow GP. …calling the Bushman a “water muddying parable speaker”. ROTFL
But you must admit that I am in good company. A man asked ‘what must I do to be saved?’ and was told that he needed to be reborn….
The point that I was making will upset you somewhat GP, It is that your bible college study-aids are of no more use in understanding the word than CH’s vast array of wide references.
This is why there are such wide gaps between the different ‘learned’ interpretations of the word. The most likely scenario is that they are all wrong.
The truth is simple, obvious and largely unknown.
Observer // February 6, 2009 at 11:02 PM
you sound like a deist bush tea
correct?
Georgie Porgie // February 6, 2009 at 11:12 PM
BT
Re But you must admit that I am in good company. A man asked ‘what must I do to be saved?’ and was told that he needed to be reborn….
Actually the Greek suggests that he said “You must be born OUT FROM ABOVE!”
Re The point that I was making will upset you somewhat GP, It is that your bible college study-aids are of no more use in understanding the word than CH’s vast array of wide references.
Now you sound like if you went to school far in the country………instead of nearby at Waterford. LOL..
Actually it facilitated things for me. I study and teach best when I have some structure.
The reason why there are such wide gaps between the different ‘learned’ interpretations of the word is simply because most folk don’t follow any rules. They all want to be guided by their subjective opinions. I have found that things that I discovered by my own personal study is written in books by others from different parts of the globe.
But believers who are employing the same Spirit tend to have the same answers.
To say that the truth is simple, obvious and largely unknown seems to me to be a declaration that God has not made any revelation BT.
I think you need to come to my office for a check up BT. The brain gone man! LOL
ROK // February 6, 2009 at 11:23 PM
Bush Tea
“Why would an intelligent BBE create the reality that we experience all around us with it’s great beauty but also great suffering and sorrows? What is the OVERALL objective?”
Well, first it takes negative and positive to make electricity. Second, people need experiences to make them grow (maybe) spiritually. These negatives and positives are about life’s lessons and I would opine that they somehow fit into the design of things. We may not understand them but resolve that they have some purpose. I am willing to leave that there until we can reason out that issue further, and say that we will not understand everything, if we did we would probably be God.
This also leads to consideration of the fact that death is inevitable and can happen by any means.
Observer // February 6, 2009 at 11:42 PM
Georgie,
have you put all of your alter egos to bed?
Bush Tea // February 7, 2009 at 8:45 AM
@Observer
et tu Brute? You mean you joining with GP now ….?
Bush Tea has been called many things, but ‘deist’ sounds particularly serious…LOL
Actually, to the extent that deist generally do not believe in divine revelation I am NOT one.
However I do know that a supreme spiritual God exists, and that God created the reality that we call life on earth.
I also think that it is possible to logically deduce the brilliant plan, the organisation and objective of our existence by studying a combination of the written word and the natural laws- provided that the required wisdom and understanding is available.
@ GP
I would be happy to have my brain checked, but you know how it is with your doctor friends – I would end up broke after the battery of expensive tests requested… and I’m trying to save $$$ for the hard times coming.
@ROK
I was talking about the OVERALL objective. the desired END result of all life.
Unless we understand what this is, even the concept of “life’s lessons” is meaningless – lessons towards what end?
E.g. -From the original designer’s perspective, what would be a successful outcome of the total project of 9000 years of life on earth?
If we can answer that question, EVERYTHING that we do, falls into clear perspective.
Dictionary // February 7, 2009 at 9:33 AM
CH:
In re yr:
>> February 6, 2009 at 3:45 pm
@Dictionary: “PPS: CH: that one is called whistling by the graveyard in the dark. This duppy has something to say: “BOO!”
So, then, @Dictionary…
Is it unreasonable to interpret your language immediately above as a death threat?
As in, if I’m found dead tomorrow, would it be unreasonable to conclude that you *might* be responsible? >>
First, with an eye to yet another foolish insinuation by [Mistaken-]Observer, I cite again a classic J’can saying:
>>DUPPY KNOW WHO FE FRIGHTEN!>>
Not only are you wrenching a common Caribbean image of false bravado duly and amusingly exposed to an extreme that is beyond merely being ridiculous; you have tried to stretch it into a *false accusation* that could have serious potential implications if spread as a rumour.
And, I am sure you know far better than that.
FOR SHAME!
In short, this is an even more uncivil resort to ad hominem attacks and distractions; not only from the original issue but the important secondary ones.
SO, LET’S GET A FEW THINGS STRAIGHT:
1 –> I have not threatened, am not threatening, and have no intention to threaten your life in any way. PERIOD. PUNTO FINAL! (I do seem to have pricked an ego-bubble or two . . . )
2 –> It seems rather, that, having lost on the merits, you resorted to the rhetorical tactic that you addressed an imaginary courtroom and tried to dismiss what I said about the inevitability of faith-points in our worldviews, the inherent limits of science, mathematics and logic, and the particular issue of Job 38: we must be humble enough to acknowledge teh limits to our knowledge, intellect and power.
3 –> In particular, I cite again:
>> Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?>>
4 –> Newsflash: neither you nor I nor the writers of your “long reading list” nor those in my 100 or so shelf feet of books next to me as I write this, were there, CH.
5 –> So, we must be humble enough to acknowledge the limits to our knowledge instead of >>darken[ing] [God's] counsel with words without knowledge [that are too often boastfully put up as if they were nigh certainty . . . just look at Discovery and History Channels, or your news mag rack, or -- one of my fav. whipping boys -- Wiki[d]pedia etc] . . . >> [Pardon a bit of vitriol; dem Wiki boys spoil up what coulda been so, so nice; I vex bad!]
6 –> in that context, I [A J'can-M'rattian of Afro-Scottish-Irish-Belgian-Indian ancestry with a C19 nat hero of J'ca on the fam tree . . . ] , Carlos [Bajan, tracing to 1640], anon [St Kitts, prob. Afro-Caribbean?] and MILLIONS of others across 2,000 years jointly testify to you that we know God in the face of Christ, by personal encounter.
7 –> This, even as we know other minds [not bodies or brains; the properties and behaviours are RADICALLY different; so, the so-called hard problem of consciousness of D Chalmers!]
8 –> But instead of seriously addressing say the import of Ac 17, 1 Cor 15:1 – 11, Phil 2:5 – 11, Col 1:15 – 20, and Is 53 as key C1 reference historical documents, you have tried to dismiss with a clever bit of rhetoric.
9 –> I therefore responded to you by telling you that you are one of those the duppy knows to frighten. “BOO!!!”
10 –> Now, you are hinting that I have somehow threatened your life, as a further ad hominem dismissal; thus joining those among BU’s shameless denizens who have falsely accused me of being a liar and a deceiver.
FOR SHAME!
Can’t you see that I am trying to get you to wake up and think about what our Lord said when he warned us all:
>> Matt 16:26 ” . . . What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world [including of course the whole academic world], yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done . . . ” >>
Please, CH, think on that; before it is eternally too late.
GEM of TKI
Georgie Porgie // February 7, 2009 at 10:07 AM
@BT
Re @ GP
I would be happy to have my brain checked, but you know how it is with your doctor friends – I would end up broke after the battery of expensive tests requested… and I’m trying to save $$$ for the hard times coming.
NO cost at all for the evaluation LOL
David // February 7, 2009 at 11:00 AM
When egos have not gotten in the way there have been several submissions which have provoked high order thinking under this blog. For the most part we have had to sadly conclude that positions have hardened as commenters elaborated respective arguments. Is it not true though that the outcome so far from the debate mirrors the real world problems? That is the confusion presented by individuals/groups who are willing to defend ideologies/dogmas to the death.
A good example if we can use it Dr. Georgie is your revelation that the Catholic Church in the USA has threatened to close down hospitals under its control if the Obama directive regarding abortions goes through. To hell with the sufferation which will result. Yet the Catholic Church would want the world to tolerate the sexual abuses by its clergy through the years and the suppression by the Vatican of the real story.
What the BU household would love to see is the debate progress to how the as people we can use our history, religions, dogmas etc to progress the development of the planet at all levels. Tell us if we are wrong but a common thread of all religions teaches tolerance and love for fellow man.
Carlos // February 7, 2009 at 12:16 PM
As GEM of TKI has stated, millions, no, hundreds of millions of people, from every nation on earth, all different classes of people, from different races and ethnic groups, black, white, brown, yellow, you name it, over the last 2000 years, when the ‘Living’ Eternal, Word of God, The Lord Jesus Christ, entered our fallen world and offered Himself, on our behalf, on the Cross of Redemption, and was Resurrected on the third day, the most significant event, ever, in human history, began the transformation in the lives of those of us, who believe, with a combined, living testimony and witness, no matter how much we fail, from time to time, WE have a living witness to the absolute ‘reality’ that only JESUS can forgive us our ’sins’ transform us from ‘within’ reconciling us to Almighty God.
The common testimony to this greatest of miracles, offered to ALL mankind through Jesus Christ, is manifestly demonstrated from those in Russia, China, the Middle East, Africa, throughout Latin and South America, where millions in recent decades, are coming to Him, the Prince of Peace, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ, and are echoing in world wide harmony, THAT, we have found true forgiveness, peace, joy, and purpose in the Person of Christ; for He declared,
“Come unto Me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST.” (Matt. 11:28)
Mankind is living in terrible and horrific times; those of us who have experienced the peace, joy, and presence of Our Lord and Saviour, cannot aptly describe what it is really like, to KNOW ‘Him’ in a most personal way, in our hearts, BUT, our testimony throughout the world confirms the reality of His transforming power in our hearts.
For, it IS not religious ritual or formalism, NO, it is a ‘personal’ relationship with ‘Him’ Jesus Christ, our only hope of glory, that makes all the difference, as no one or nothing else can, or ever will.
For Jesus said:
“I am the way (not one of many ways) I AM THE TRUTH, (not one of many truths), and the LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6) emphasis added,
Carlos // February 7, 2009 at 1:06 PM
David:
History is replete with mankind’s dismal failure in finding peace and harmony! Why is this so?
Because, peace cannot, and WILL never be found in humanistic, secular, religious philosophy, science or any other way.
We are fastly approaching the threshold of mankind’s ultimate destiny, heading toward the ultimate catastrophe; all of the signs ARE there, go and read Matt. 24.
Jesus Christ IS the Only answer; the season, generation, for His Second return IS at hand!
ROK // February 7, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Bush Tea, JC, Technician and others interested. Don’t you think we should ask David to create a thread that would be conducive for this discussion? Let them continue discussing the start of WWIII?
David, we want to talk about this without feeling that we intruding on the topic here. Please!
Dictionary // February 7, 2009 at 1:30 PM
David:
It seems this blog thread is wandering all over the map, but in ways that are telling a lot about what is going on in our Caribbean as many walk away from the gospel and its ethics.
You have decided to vent on Catholics and abortion. (And to take a swipe at them for failing to properly detect and restrain or expel a nest of pedophiles, mostly preying on young boys. That was awful, but they have faced it and tried to do something about it. BTW, the actual incidence was lower than for many professions we still revere and trust, but someone had an agenda to ride on, and this was a handy club to beat down potential opponents. How do I know that? At the same time, pretty much the same media and opinion voices were riding on the Boy Scouts too — for policing themselves to keep just such predators away from young boy scouts. That inconsistency is utterly telling.)
Now, the death toll from abortions in the USA since 1973 is 48+ MILLIONS.
And, mounting at more than a 9/11 a day.
That is the no 3 all time holocaust, and is heading for number 1 as the others have ended and this one has no end in sight. (Blood-guilt like that brings ruin to nations. That is part of why I think America’s days are numbered now — very numbered; absent the sort of repentance and reform the Jeremiah 18 passage that we looked at a few days back talks about. Of such national repentance, I see but little sign. But, miracles are always possible. Let us pray for them, and let us look to our own need to repent of our own sins, too. )
Of course; some may join in the pretence that an unborn baby is not a human being and/or that if there is doubt, we can arrogate the right to decide in favour of its death if the child is inconvenient for whatever reason.
Now, too, Catholics — and I am not one — have for centuries served humanity , including through medical care. They have, for as long as the records go back, taken a principled stance that they will not participate in abortion.
That is not even a uniquely Christian position: it is in the pre-Christian, Hippocratic oath. (The same oath that is quietly being dropped from ever so many medical programmes.)
Now, let us learn from the pagans [And Rom 2:1 - 15 and 13:8 - 10]:
>>I swear by Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath.
To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.
I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.
***I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan***; and similarly ***I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.***
But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.
I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.
In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.
All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.
If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot. >>
Along come some latter-day ethically challenged politicians who want to say: either you do what you understand is murder, or you cannot operate a hospital, or practice as a Doctor, or teach students to become doctors.
To hold those who simply wish to do good while not being part of what they understand — and probably rightly — to be a holocaust, hostage to such a questionable practice is utterly, indefensibly evil.
Then, to turn around and blame the VICTIM of such extortion for refusing to surrender the value of LIFE . . . .
Please. THINK about what you are saying!
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // February 8, 2009 at 9:39 AM
H’mm:
Let’s test, no 1 Italic, bold html tags.
Pardon — no obvious tutorial on what can be dome here. (And I don’t have preview that would show . . .)
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // February 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM
PS: A semi-popular discussion level link on the hard problems on mind issue (and Anonymous, yes this is my work):
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Info_design_and_science.htm#origmind
Dictionary // February 8, 2009 at 9:48 AM
H’mm:
Seems there is at least one URL allowed.
Will a link work? Let’s try a link to the same named anchor in the same page,
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // February 8, 2009 at 10:02 AM
Okay:
Now, a comment on a counter-diagnosis:
I think old Uncle James, as my Mom used to call him in our young adults Sunday School Class across from Welches Post Office, has a lot to tell us.
Food for thought.
GEM of TKI
Dictionary // February 8, 2009 at 10:03 AM
PS, I really don’t like that forced italics in a blockquote!
Tunisie hebergement // July 2, 2009 at 12:00 PM
excellent poste, complet et bien détaillé, ça me plaît !merci bien