Mark of the Beast
It is no secret that there is a constituency which dwells in the Barbados Underground who enjoys a robust religious debate. In recent times there has been rich discussion about the Jewish Talmud, The Promises of God and currently The Bible And The Qur’an, Brothers Kept Apart. This group is comprised of Atheists, Agnostics, Christians and others, we even noticed the description Apathiest.
Surprisingly to the BU household the religious conversation has attracted a healthy following based on what we see from back here. We hope that we are not twisting any arms but there are some Christian events which require clarification.
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The BU household wishes to ask our religious luminaries to explain how they perceive revelations linked to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls can potentially reshape religion as we know it.
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Explain the Mark of the Beast and the much discussed the coming of the Anti-Christ.
Attached is a Power Point Presentation which has been in circulation for sometime which some believe is the Mark of the Beast exposed!
794 responses so far ↓
Georgie Porgie // May 20, 2009 at 7:02 PM
Here are the main Scripture verses on 666, the mark of the beast:
Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (666)
There are several passages on the Antichrist and his rise to power and there is an important relationship between The Antichrist and the Mark of the Beast to be grasped.
Georgie Porgie // May 20, 2009 at 7:18 PM
Who is the beast?
Just as there is the Trinity; God the Father, God the Son & God the HOly Spirit , in the end time Satan will also have his countefeit trinity The Dragon (Satan himself), The Beast & the False Prophet. The dragon is introduced in Revelation 12 has having been cast out from heaven. He is no longer allowed to present himself to acuse the saints as is taught in Job and Zechariah 3.
The Dragon (Satan himself) will empower the beast as seen in Revelation 13:2.
What is his mark? 666
The mark of the beast will be a literal, physical combination of letters and symbols. It will be permanently and prominently engraved or tatooed on the forehead or right hand of each person who gets the mark of the beast as taught in Revelation 13:16,17.
“He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”
kiki // May 20, 2009 at 7:32 PM
Did you know that the inverse of ‘Live’ is ‘Evil’ and ‘Lived’ is ‘Devil’?
So live right and the Devil won’t get a look in.
Georgie Porgie // May 20, 2009 at 8:28 PM
Is the VeriChip the Mark of the Beast?
Currently the VeriChip is not the mark of the beast, because the mark of the beast will only be offered after the beast has come, and after the rise of antichrist.
Antichrist will rise only after the rapture as clearly taught in 2 Thessalonians 2. So clearly, the VeriChip is not the mark of the beast at this time.
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The VeriChip is a small radio frequency identification device. It has an identification number and it is the size of a grain of rice. The VeriChip is implanted in the human body. It is currently used in some countries for medical information, and for banking issues.
By itself the VeriChip is not the mark of the beast. But at some point in the future it COULD be part of the physical mark that is put on a person’s forehead or right hand.
It is possible that a VeriChip could be implanted in the forehead or right hand as a part of the mark of the beast, especially in the more industrialized countries.
I have for many years (like many other believers) been wondering what the Mark of the Beast could be. NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE.
From a teen, I used to think that just a mark 666 would not be enough to achieve the control that the mark is supposed to exert. After all the mark of the beast is an outward, physical symbol, showing that the wearer has chosen to worship the beast and receive him as God.
The mark of the beast will be enforced. The mark of the beast will be placed on people who worship the beast and choose to receive his mark. And there will be severe penalties for refusing the mark as one will be unable to buy or sell without it.
The mark will be plainly visible for all to see. Your friends and family will be able to see if you have received the mark. Your employer can look at you and see the mark. When you go shopping the store clerk will be able to see if you are wearing the mark of the beast.
There is speculation today that the mark might involve a combination of technologies sucs as bar coding, GPS, the VeriChip, computers, satellite, and other modalities such as social security numbers and other such numbers.
Last year it was revealed that there is now a scanning method to identify persons,using DNA inter alia, so it is not unreasonable to conceive that all of these technologies might be implicated in the mark and its functioning.
So though we do not know at this time what the mark of the beasst is/will be. What I am quite sure about though, is that what ever the mark is, and what ever the systems that will be involved in its employment , are already developed.
I believe that all these things will be so common and so well accepted, that when the people of the world are invited to take the mark, they will find it extremely easy to acquiesce.
J // May 20, 2009 at 9:40 PM
Dear David:
We want a nice robust discussion about how our politicians (all parties) won’t go near to a church door unless dragged there in an “official” capacity.
And we want to discuss if their abscence from Christian congregations (or any congregations) makes them more vulnerable to corruption, and we the people more likely to be ripped off.
We want you to keep the discussions on BU REAL.
We want you to lay off the esoteric stuff.
J // May 20, 2009 at 9:54 PM
Dear Georgie Porgie you wrote “The mark of the beast will be ENFORCED. The mark of the beast will be placed on people who worship the beast and CHOOSE to receive his mark.”
Since ENFORCED and CHOOSE are exact opposites, which one do you want us to believe? because both CANNOT be TRUE?
Just asking.
Tek you time to formulate a TRUTHFUL answer.
Georgie Porgie // May 20, 2009 at 11:02 PM
You are quite correct J in picking that nit.
ENFORCED and CHOOSE are exact opposites. But in this case many will choose to take the mark. After all they will see no harm in doing so, because it will seem to be the status quo, as many features attendant with the mark, will no doubt be normal occurences.
Some will be forced to do so, because without it they can not buy or sell.
Those who choose not to take the mark will suffer great persecution.
Once they take the mark, The conditions concerning taking the mark will be strictly enforced. Whether one choses voluntarily, or of necessity or whatever the conditions of the mark will be enforced!
J, I always rightly divide the Word as acurately as I can and I always give TRUTHFUL answers. I hope this helps.
Also this issue is real, and certainly more important than the silly politicians. There is nothing escoteric about it. It is time we start looking to God, and not to the politicians, who will become more and more impotent as the day draws nigh.
Juris // May 21, 2009 at 8:46 AM
GP,
You and some others keep saying you “DIVIDE” the Word. Is this some new usage of that word? Should it not be instead “DIVINE”?
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 8:55 AM
2 Timothy 2 15 reads Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The word used for “divide” means to cut with a sharp knife. This is not a new new usage of the word “divide” , but a term used by the Bible and theologians and Bible scholars to indicate the correct interpretation of the Word, by comparing Scripture with Scripture.
e.g IJohn 4:13, Ephesians 1:3 &4:30 as wel as Romans 5:5 indicate that the Holy Spirit was given.
Juris // May 21, 2009 at 9:06 AM
The Latin roots of “divide” are “dis”=apart (of two) and “videre” = to separate. The Biblical usage confuses me. “Divine”, on the other hand from “divinare”= to be inspired by God seems more appropriate. But I respect your superior knowledge in these matters.
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 10:06 AM
Recall Sir, that the NT was written in Koine greek, but your Latin etymology is still appropriate, and certainly most correct.
Use of “divide” in 2 Tim 2:15 does indeed have the idea of setting things apart. e.g Law vs Grace, dispensations, covenants, justification by faith vs justification by works etc
Believers are enjoined in 2 Tim 2:15 to STUDY, so that they can boldly explain the issues in the Word by correctly placing the correct passages with each other, or being able to extract the correct scriptures for the correct situation…….very similiar to what you lawyers do.
There is/used to be a very nice booklet by Scofield entitled Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth that pointed out these major “divisions” or thrends of thought in the Bible. Ironside wrote an equally useful booklet called Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth
I think that “divinare” would be more suited to the two verses cited as the proof texts for the plenary verbal inspiration of the Bible (i.e 2 Peter 1:21 & 2 Timothy 2:16).
Knight of the Long Knives // May 21, 2009 at 10:13 AM
I can’t believe people still take the bible literally. It is clearly almost completely allegorical.
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 10:39 AM
When I first saw the use of bar codes, I thought that perhaps the mark of the beast would be 666 with a bar code placed in one of the numbers, just as we use bar codes to identify a product in a store and place the price of the object simultaneously.
Such a bar code might vary from country to country, using the information used in that country to identify its citizens, and hooked up to a computerised database such as we see in CSI. In Barbados our registration number has ones birthdate as part of the identity, and certainly allows one who understands it to know your age.
Some systems in other countries have a number to denote sex, ethnicity etc. These can all aid in identity, to ensure that onecan not fake the number on a person.
We can see how computer chips and GPS etc can enhance the way that the use of the mark can be enforced.
Only this week some city in the USA has been advocating that the police put GPS units on the cars of its citizens so that they could easily be located. Many persons accepted the idea saying there was no need to fear such an invasion of privacy if the citizen had nothing to hide.
One imagines that when the time comes, that all the technologies involved would be well accepted by the citizenry, so that accepting the mark would be considered as just another norm of life.
JJ // May 21, 2009 at 11:46 AM
Read Revelation 14:9-12
the mark of the beast is associated with the FIERCEST MOST AWFUL WRATH EVER POURED OUT FROM GOD – it is His wrath “without mixture” i.e. it is unmingled with mercy!
Question: WHY WOULD GOD POUR OUT HIS FINAL WRATH AGAINST PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD A MICROCHIP OR SOMETHING LIKE IT EMBEDDED INTO THEIR FOREHEAD OR RIGHT HAND?????
Let’s say some parents think this is a really good idea and have their small children receive implants of the chip. WILL THE SAME GOD WHO SENT HIS ONLY SON TO DIE FOR US THEN PUNISH THESE CHILDREN WITH TOTAL FURY?
WHY WOULD GOD BE CONCERNED ABOUT IMPLANTED MICROCHIPS?????
WHERE DO PEOPLE GET SUCH PERVERTED IDEAS ABOUT THE CHARACTER OF GOD?????
The whole issue of the Bible is sin, not some microchip!!!
The mark of the beast has zip to do with chips or technology or any such thing!
Knight of the Long Knives // May 21, 2009 at 12:17 PM
Jackson continues on to state, “ most of the black gods were regarded as crucified saviors who died to save mankind by being nailed to a cross, or tied to a tree with arms outstretched as if on a cross, or slain violently in some other manner. Of these Crucified SAVIORS, THE MOST PROMINENT WERE OSIRIS, AND HORUS OF EGYPT, KRISHNA OF INDIA, MITHRA OF PERSIA, QUETZALCOATL OF MEXICO, ADDONIS OF BABYLONIA AND ATTIS OF PHRYGIA. NEARLY ALL OF THESE SLAIN SAVIOR-GODS HAVE THE FOLLOWING STORIES RELATED ABOUT THEM:—THEY ARE BORN OF A VIRGIN, ON OR NEAR DEC.25TH (CHRISTMAS); THEIR BIRTH ARE HERALDED BY A STAR; THEY ARE BORN EITHER IN A CAVE OR STABLE; THEY ARE SLAIN, COMMONLY BY CRUCIFIXION; THEY DESCEND INTO HELL, AND RISE FROM THE DEAD AT THE BEGINNING OF SPRING (EASTER) AND FINALLY ASCEND INTO HEAVEN.” (Reference: “Ethiopia and the Origin of Civilization” by John G. Jackson).
Knight of the Long Knives // May 21, 2009 at 12:18 PM
copied from this link: http://www.dailygrail.com/node/5736
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 12:58 PM
@ JJ
The whole issue of the Bible is about how God deals with the sin issue. Thats the message of the Bible from Genesis 3:15.
Those persons who deal with the sin issue according to God’s plan are in heaven as early as Revelation 4. Revelation 6-19 deals generally and specifically with those who elect to deal with the sin issue according according to their own way.
You seem to be confused and inconsistent about the judgement of God. You ask WILL THE SAME GOD WHO SENT HIS ONLY SON TO DIE FOR US THEN PUNISH THESE CHILDREN WITH TOTAL FURY?
Several scriptures teach that God did indeed send his son to die for the sins of ALL MEN. In other words his work on the cross was SUFFICIENT for all. But several other scriptures reveal that his work on the cross is EFFICIENT only for those who accept this work. An example of these verses is 1 Timothy 4:10. Christ is there described as the Savior of all men, especially those that believe.
These is a separation. There is the judgement seat of Christ for believers, and the great white throne judgement for unbelievers. The saints are in heaven in Rev 4, the aints are not!
The issue here is not microchips as the reason for receiving or experiencing the wrath of God. The discussion is about trying to discern the nature of the mark of the beast. It is clear that there will be a mark. It is unclear what the nature of the mark will be.
It is difficult to see that the number 666 written on a person will be enough to differentiate from those who have received the mark from those who have not taken it, since anyone can obviously mark 666 on their foreheads to fool the enforcers.
What I have said in clear English, is that I believe that there will be by that time numerous technologies ( and many are evident already) that can easily be incorporated into the actual mark, and use to monitor the whereabouts of folk who have the mark and identify those that only have a pseudo mark..
It is clear that prophesy is being fulfilled before or eyes and that clarity is being made to those who are discerning. Those who are ignorant and whose vision tends to 0/0 will not see, or can not see, now, then or at any other time.
What ever form the mark takes ; by whatever form the mark is applied, monitored and enforced God will pour out his wrath on an unbelieving people who miss the rapture. You can therefore split hairs, engage in semantics and ask questions that evince your poor understanding of English.
I think my presentation is clear and as sound as a bell. At no time did I say that implanted microchips WILL be used. I said in clear English that there are a range of technologies now in vogue, that people take for granted and as the norm, that way well be incorporated in the mark of the beast and might be used in its application, monitoring and enforcement.
You can now demonstrate that the mark of the beast has zip to do with chips or technology or any such thing!You can now demonstrate your view of how the mark will be applied, monitored and enforced.
It is one thing to rant, rave and ramble. It is another to present a logical thesis with information and detail that is plausible and accords with what is hap[pening currently.
I will remind you that when the first predictions that Christ would be hung on a tree was made, the method of death by crucifixion was not yet invented. Did God not employ via the Romans the technology of the day? Might we not wonder if he will also employ the contemporary technology in that day?
Zoe // May 21, 2009 at 1:07 PM
@JJ, You got it all confused, what do you think the ‘Microchip’ is, if in fact this does happen to be the ‘Antichrist’ mark of the Beast, BUT SIN, the very demonic, Satanically inspired, and IMPOSED mark of the Beast, a vehement last attempt by Satan to control most of mankind, just before Jesus returns to utterly destroy the Devil, and the multitides who worshipped ‘him’ by talking his Mark!
Almighty God’s prophets, Daniel and John, both predicted that the nations of the world would ultimately surrender their ’sovereignty’ to the Antichrist in hope that he would bring security and true peace.
A large number of politicians of key nations throughout the world have abandoned belief in their nation’s sovereignty, and now belief that the only way to prevent a devasting world war, is for every nation to surender its sovereignty to a future world government, which is what this carfully planned ‘World Economic Crisis’ is all about, for without such a crisis, it would not be possible to craftly and cunningly bring about and institute, One World Government, the ‘Antichrist’ World Order.
The Scriptures, God’s Word, warn that the earth will NEVER know true peace, until, the Prince of Peace comes, The Lord Jesus Christ.
The Antichrist will use men’s deep longing for peace “to conquer” the nations of the world and force them to join his growing world government.
There is something mysterious and fascinating about the Mark of the Beast that has held a unique place in the minds of men for many centuries. The mark will no doubt be related to both the ‘name of the beast’ and ‘the number of his name” ‘666.’ It will indicate that the individual willingly worships the ‘beast’ the satanic Antichrist. If someone does not possess this Mark, they will not be able to buy or sell during the Great Tribulation.
The universal application of this system was technically impossible until recent times, yet now the introduction of laser scans, implantable computer chips, and computerized financial systems make it very feasible.
The introduction of this diabolical Mark of the Beast system will place humanity in an invisible economic prison. The worldwide economic and political system of the last days will be under the control of the Antichrist and the False Prophet.
All that has and is currently transpiring with the ‘Economic Crisis’ worldwide, is no accident, that has been carefully planned and orchastrated for this express purpose, without which, the One World Government, the Antichrist world government cannot become a reality.
Obama has been selected at this time, for this purpose, by the wicked World Order, Antichrist elite; for he is all a part of this sinister plan and plot. His charm, rhetoric, etc, etc., is part of what is needed in such a leader.
Technician // May 21, 2009 at 1:12 PM
@ GP….Question….was it a cross or a pole?
I have heard that it was a pole and not a cross, this discussion came up in the office and I guess you can tell between who (lol).
What is your take on this.
BTW…this is not meant to derail the topic.
Technician // May 21, 2009 at 1:15 PM
Zoe…you treading real close to conspiracy theories for a Christian though.
I thought that was for people like myself and Hopi.
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 1:17 PM
Rise of Antichrist part 1
The term antichrist does not necessarily mean someone who is openly against Christ like an atheist or a pagan.
It may also mean persons who appear instead of Christ, and oppose Chritianity in this way—i.e. a counterfeit Christ.
Such antichrists include all the originators and propagators of all the false cults which have arisen throughout the church age. These are all Christian in their jargon and activity but their basic message is antichristian—they all reject the true Christ as is taught in 1 John 4 :1-3&5-6.
All persons and organisations which purports to be Christian in its outward aspects, but whose message is opposed to the Word of God is antichrist.
Antichrist refers to both a particular person as well as to a principle which is actively opposed to God and which may well be thought of as incarnating itself in those in every generation who have seemed to be blatant opponents of God.
The term antichrists also include those politicians, patriots, social workers, psychologists, and any persuasive voices whose works and words claim to meet, SIN- the basic problem of human life is antichristian, because they are making false claims, which have decieved many throughout this age.
By offering men peace without forgiveness and diverting men from the narrow road that leads to Christ and the salvation and cure for sin which he offers via the cleansing and forgiveness of sin, they manifest themselves to be antichrist. We must test what they say by Scripture.
Jesus predicted in the Olivet Discourse that near. the end of the age -many people will claim to be Christ. We have many antichrists among us currently., but at the end of the age there will come one Antichrist who will oppose Christ and set himself up as the only authority.
As most NT readers know, the words antichrist and antichrists appear in 1 John 2:18, thus:
18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 4:3 thus
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 7 thus
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
In these scriptures we see that the term antichrist refers to persons who are false teachers who were teaching doctrine that were against the doctrine of Christ, or who were presenting other teachings to be set along side the doctrines of Christ. Jesus, Paul, Jude and Peter all warned about the advent of such persons. In fact in 1 John 2:18 & 1 John 4:3, John points out that such persons were already present in Christendom.
Such persons are characterized by the fact that they deny “that Jesus is the Christ” and they fail to confess the incarnation of Christ, i.e that Jesus came in the flesh. The “many antichrists” that have existed throughout the Church age or the age of grace belong to the same spirit as that of the one Antichrist, who also denies the Father and the Son, and seeks to be worshipped in his place.
According to 1John 2:18 even in his time there were antichrists; those who were against Christ and those who were instead of Christ This is still a feature of our times we have the anti Christ of liberalism, modernism, materialism, education and all the cults and dogmas and doctrines and philosophies whose teachings are against, or contrary to the word of God, and all the rituals, and anything which attempts to take Christ’s place—even pre-eminence in a church is anti christ. The success of these folk with respect to their deception, their approach, their success and indeed their final damnation is predicted in Acts 20:28-32; Romans 16:17-18; Titus 1:10-11& 3:9-11;2 Peter2 and Jude.
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 1:29 PM
@ Technician
Josh McDowell’s book Evidence that Demands a Verdict is really great with respect to matters of both the crucifixion and the resurrection.
It was indeed a pole (the trunk of a tree) nailed into the ground like a big stake or pile. Hence we sing about the Old Rugged Cross. The victim carried the cross piece and this was attached to the pole at the crucifixion site.
BTW, Zoe is spot on about what you call a “conspiracy theory.” Whereas I don’t think that Obama is the Antichrist (theologians think he will be a Jew- cant think of the scripture reference now), he has the type of appeal, skills and charisma that will characterize the Antichrist. This globalization thing is certainly not by chance!
If you can find the writings off Arthur Pink on line, you will find a lot of good information on the antichrist. In Pink’s day men had little distractions, and godly men really studied the Word with a passion. Pink was one of them. He really gets into the nitty gritty of words.
Zoe // May 21, 2009 at 3:34 PM
Technician, the difference between my take on the ‘conspiracy’ theories and those that Hopi et al expound, is, that I can clearly see the difference between the ‘trees’ and the jungle, therefore, I can only make any sense of what is transpiring ‘globally’ and by extension ‘economically’ WTO, IMF, World Bank, UN, etc, etc, as I take my position from what has been stated, prophetically, from God’s Word, the Bible, which is unfolding, year by year, day by day, in this vast complexity of World ‘affairs’.
Unfortunately, those like Hopi and others see this utter mess, globally, through the prism of ‘colour’ which is nonsense, Yes, it does appear that the power is vested in the rich developed nations, who are primarily ‘white’ and they are the ones who fudamentally control the IMF, World Bank, and who also control the other secretive organizations, all planning the One World Government, to bring ALL of us into economic slavery.
BUT, Almighty God has never dealt with colour as the problem that plagues all of mankind, which is ‘SIN’ as Sin has NO COLOUR, for He is a respector of NO ONE, but judges all of us, based on His absolute Holiness, Righteousness, and Justice.
We can very easily become myopic, and fail to see the bigger picture, as God sees it!
Hopi // May 21, 2009 at 3:42 PM
@David….This is one thread that you should NOT remove from your blog because this is what we are living through now.
The anti-christ is NOT a man nor a woman it is a SHITSTEM. We are living in it today. And it is being propelled by our ignorance, arrogance, compliance and complacency. Watch how the fake bogus 9/11 takedown is causing citizens of this earth to give up their basic rights. Watch how a few greedy,murderous,lying,evil-loving white men have tornadoed world economies. We look in the mirror and lie to ourselves, then we lie to our countrymen, then we lie to our children. And what is making all of this possible is that little black Book — the BIBLE. In this book, the money-master and murderers have carefully laid out their plan, told you that it is prophecy from “God.” and have you believing it. But I can PROVE to anyone that this is NOT prophecy. Just long-term inter-generational planning! That’s all this shit is!
Be very wary of those who say that they have found the dead sea scrolls and are interpreting them for you. These are the same people who wrote themselves into the Bible as ‘God’s’ chosen and wrote Blacks into the Bible as the children of HAM who were cursed with being BLACK because they ‘laughed at their father’s nakedness.’ This filthy, lying, criminal bunch, that’s running amuck throughout the world today, the bloodsuckers. And the christians are giving them their power, while the Arabs and Muslims are pushing back.
“What a woeful web they weave
When first they practise to deceive!”
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7
The Antichrist has many names, and whereas his actual rise is best described by Paul in some detail in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, the first mention of him is perceived to be given in Daniel 7, which is in many ways similar to Daniel 2. A study of both Daniel 2 & 7 are needed to fit all the prophecies into a timeline..
COMPARISONS BETWEEN DANIEL 2 & 7
Chapter 2 Chapter 7
Nebuchadnezzar’s image The four beasts
Given to Nebuchadnezzar Given to Daniel
4 kingdoms + 1 in view 4 kingdoms + 1 in view
1 man + a stone 4 beasts + the Son of Man
More general More detailed
Daniel interpreted it. An angel interpreted it.
Man’s viewpoint God’s viewpoint
The importance of these visions is that they give the history of the world, and describes who will dominate the world scene in the period of time stretching from the Babylonian conquest of Judah until the Battle of Armageddon. Jesus called this period “the times of the gentiles”.
Daniel 7:1-6 describes the rise and fall of the Babylonians, the Medes and Persians, the Greeks and the Romans.
Then he introduces a fourth beast, whom many conservative scholars believe to represents the Roman Empire. Others believe that the ten horns of this fourth beast refer to future rulers who will appear around the time of or preceding the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Therefore most premillenarians believe that the 10 horns describe 10 rulers who will arise in the future and reign simultaneously.
Since the Roman Empire is no longer in existence it is thought that God will revive or realign the Roman Empire in the future.
Some believe that this will be a final rearrangement of the current European Nations, who even at this have a common currency. ( NB a horn may either be a king or a kingdom or nation. i.e Rulers represent the nations that they lead as well as themselves (cf. vv. 17, 23).
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7 continuued (verses 7-11)
Daniel then noticed in Daniel 7:8 an eleventh horn arising among the ten, which displaced three of the 10 horns.
This eleventh horn had human eyes, probably symbolic of intelligence, and a mouth that spoke boastfully (cf. vv. 11, 20, 25). This eleventh horn or ruler is considered to be the Antichrist (cf. Isa. 27:1; Matt. 24:5, 15; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Rev. 13; 17; 19).
This eleventh horn or ruler must be distinguished from another “little horn” that Daniel saw in another vision that he reported having (8:9-11). The differences between these two little horns indicate that they are different rulers.
In Daniel 7:9-12 reports that this fourth beast or the Antichrist will be destroyed by God the Father (here called The Ancient of Days- cf vv. 13, 22; Isa.43:13; 57:15). This actually occurs eventually in Revelation 19:20
.
In this vision Daniel saw thrones set up in the courts of heaven, just as the apostle John later saw thrones set up in heaven also (Rev. 1:4; 20:4; et al.). Daniel then saw God the Father take His seat on His heavenly throne.
Note that the title “Ancient of Days” stresses God’s eternality. His pure white clothing pictures His purity and holiness, and His pure woolly hair suggests His mature judgment. Daniel saw His throne blazing with fire (lit. a burning flame cf Genesis 15), symbolic of knowledge, purity, and judgment in Scripture. Its wheels probably imply that it and He can go in any direction, that He can do anything He pleases (cf. Ezek. 1:13-21).
In Daniel 7:10 Daniel saw a river of fire flowing out from before the throne of God the Father, symbolizing judgment proceeding from Him. Those attending Him were evidently angels (cf. Deut. 33:2). The court (cf. v. 26) seems to be a heavenly venue in which God renders judgment on rulers and their nations based on their deeds (Isa. 65:6; Mal. 3:16; Rev. 20:12; cf. Matt. 25:31-46).
Next in verse 11, Daniel’s observed a shift of proceedings from heaven to earth, and was attracted to the boastful words of the horn or ruler of v. 8; i.e the Antichrist.
He noticed too that God passed judgment on the fourth beast or ruler and destroyed it along with all its horns or fellow rulers (cf. Luke 21: 24-27; Rev. 19:20).
Similarly the stone cut out without hands crushed the toes of the image in chapter 2 suddenly and violently. In other words, antichrist and his compatriots who come against God will be destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ who is the “stone cut out without hands” that crushed the toes of the image in chapter 2 – which represents the revived Roman Empire ( considered to be the Euro nations of our day.)
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM
Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7 continued ( verse 12-13
Verse 12 of Daniel 7 indicates a contrast in the end of the Roman empire in the form of its revision with that of the previous three (the Babylonia, Medo-Persian and the Grecian.)
It must be understood here that although God took away the dominion of each of these earlier three kingdoms one by one, that they continued to exist as elements of the kingdom that overcame them for some time. That is the Medo-Persian empire contained features of the Babylonian, and the Grecian empire contained features of both the Babylonian and Medo-Persian empires . Similarly the Roman Empire and its revised form contained features of all the civilizations that they replaced.
However, God will cut off the fourth empire completely, and it will continue no longer (v. 11). Thus the end of the fourth kingdom will result in a totally new condition on the earth (cf. Rev. 19:19—20:6).
In Daniel 7:13-14 the scene shifts back to heaven again. Daniel saw a person looking like the “son of man” (i.e God the Son) ushered before the Ancient of Days apparently by angelic attendants in heaven’s court The Ancient of Days (God the Father) then gave
the “son of man” (i.e God the Son) authority to rule on earth (cf. Ps. 2:6; 110:1-2).
“The one like the son of man has similarities with human beings, as the title “son of man” implies. However, he comes with clouds of heaven, which elsewhere in Scripture describes how God has come to earth (cf. Exod. 13:21-22; 19:9,16; 1 Kings 8:10-11; Ps. 18:10; Isa. 19:1; Jer. 4:13; Ezek. 10:4; et al.).
Thus this one like a son of man appears to be a God-man (cf. Phil. 2:6-7). The fact that this refers to the Son of God, Jesus Christ, becomes clear later in the Gospels where Jesus used the title “Son of Man” more frequently of himself than any other (cf. Mark 8:31; John 1:51; et al.). Other passages also describe Jesus Christ as coming in the clouds in the future (cf. Matt. 24:30; 26:64; Mark 13:26; Acts. 1:9; 1 Thess. 4:17; Rev.1:7).
Because Jesus commonly used the title “Son of Man” to describe Himself, this is the most frequently quoted verse from Daniel in the New Testament. It is very significant that Jesus used this title above all others when describing Himself, some 31 times in Matthew alone.
“Although Messiah had already been named as God’s ‘Son’ in previous prophetic utterances (cf. [2 Sam. 7:14;] Ps. 2:7, 12; Prov. 30:4), He is now given a name that emphasizes His true and total identification with mankind.” (Constable)
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 4:35 PM
Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7 continued ( verse 14 -
We see in Daniel 7:14 that the Son of Man became the prominent person in the vision, and that He received dominion and glory and a kingdom, clearly from the Ancient of Days, just as is also predicted in that high Christology passage of Philippians 2:9-11.
The Son of Man’s kingdom and exaltation here “does not refer to his inherent sovereignty over the universe as God the Son (as consubstantial and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit), but to his appointment as absolute Lord and Judge by virtue of his atoning ministry as God incarnate—the one who achieved a sinless life (Isa 53:9), paid the price for man’s redemption (Isa 53:5-6), and was vindicated by his bodily resurrection as Judge of the entire human race (Acts 17:31; Rom 2:16).”
God’s intention in giving Him this authority (cf. Matt. 28:18) was that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. He was to have global rule over everyone. Furthermore His kingdom would last forever in contrast to the preceding four kingdoms.
Succeeding kingdoms destroyed preceding kingdoms, but no kingdom will ever destroy His kingdom (cf. Ps. 2:6-9; 72:11; Isa. 11; Rev. 19:15-16; 20:1-6).
This is a fifth kingdom corresponding to the stone cut out without hands in chapter 2 that destroys the fourth kingdom and all preceding kingdoms.
Since the destruction of the previous three kingdoms was literal, it is reasonable to expect that the destruction of the fourth kingdom by the fifth kingdom shall be literal.
Since Jesus did not destroy the Roman empire at his first advent, then clearly the second coming of Christ must be the time of the initiation of the fifth kingdom and the final destruction of the fourth kingdom.
If this is so, then the prophetic picture that Daniel saw did not include the present age in which we live (cf. Isa. 61:1-2; Luke 4:18-19).
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 4:39 PM
Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2- according to Daniel 7 continued ( verse 15 -25
Even though Daniel understood all kinds of visions and dreams (1:17), he was totally baffled and alarmed concerning the interpretation of the fourth beast and particularly the little horn (7:15-18.)
So in his vision he apparently asked an angel (cf. 8:16; 9:21) to help him understand. He was told that each of the four beasts represented a king (cf. v. 23) who had arisen from the earth’s population, which is what the sea symbolized (v. 2; cf. Isa. 17:12-13; 57:20-21; Jer. 46:7-8).
He was told that the ‘four kings’ refer to four kingdoms, just as the beasts represent both a king and a kingdom.
It was then explained to him that the saints of the Highest One (vv. 22, 25, 27) probably referring to believers of all ages (v. 27) will receive a (fifth) kingdom and will possess it forever.
In other words, God’s people will participate and have a share in the Son of Man’s literal, earthly, everlasting kingdom after He establishes it. This kingdom will replace the previous empires of men and involves the saints reigning with Christ (cf. Matt. 25:14-30; Luke 19:11-27; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 5:10; 20:4, 6; 22:5).
.
This kingdom will begin with the return of Christ to the earth, continue for 1,000 years on the earth, and then continue in the new heavens and new earth forever. This fact corrects the objection that this kingdom cannot be millennial since the angel said it would last forever.
Daniel’s apparent request for a more detailed interpretation of the fourth beast in 7:19-22 resulted in unearthing four previously unrevealed details about them.The beast had claws of bronze stressing its fierce nature (v. 19).
The little horn was larger than the other horns accounting for its ability to rise in the place of three other horns (v. 20). The little horn waged war with the saints and overcame them, which explains one reason for God’s final judgment of him (v. 21; cf. Rev. 11:7; 12:13-17; 13:7; 17:17).
Daniel seems to have had particular concern about the fate of the saints whom the little horn overpowered. Finally, God passed judgment in favor of His saints further indicating the importance of the saints in God’s actions.
Note that the names “Ancient of Days” and “Highest One” (or Most High) appear to be two titles of God the Father stressing His eternality and sovereignty respectively.
With respect to the interpretation of the fourth beast, the interpreting angel then granted the prophet more insight about the fourth beast and particularly about the little horn in Daniel 7:23-25.
In verse 23, the dual identification of the beasts with kings and kingdoms becomes clear as it is pointed out that the fourth beast does not just represent a king (v. 17) but also a kingdom.
The angel repeated the facts already revealed (v. 7) but clarified that the previous description referred to a kingdom. The phrase “whole earth” refers to a “one-world government under a worldwide dictator”as is evident in Revelation 13. The current thrend called globalization seems to be heading toward this.
In Daniel 7:24-25 One difference between the description of the little horn here and earlier (v. 8) is that here the little horn is a king, not a kingdom.
Another is that he will be different from the previous 10 kings (cf. Rev. 13:1; 17:12). His boastful words will be against the Most High and His saints (v. 25). He will wear down the saints, evidently by persecution (cf. 2 Thess. 2:8-9; Rev. 12:13-17; 13:1-10, 16-17).
He will also desire to make changes in times (the calendar?) and in law. Someone, obviously the sovereign God, will allow him to have his way for “a time, times, and half a time” (cf. 12:7), or the last three and one-half years before the little horn’s destruction and the return of Jesus Christ.
This corresponds to the “Great Tribulation,” the phrase Jesus used to describe the last half (three and one half years) of the seven-year Tribulation (Matt. 24:21; (cf. 4:16; Rev. 11:2-3; 12:6; 13:5).
Just as our Lord ministered on earth three and a half years, the Antichrist (as a counterfeit) will similarly enact his Satanic ministry for the same length of time.”
Christopher Halsall // May 21, 2009 at 4:57 PM
As Albert Einstein derived…
Energy (E) is equal to (==) Mass (m) times the speed of light (c) to the power of two (^2).
My gods!!! What a beautiful equation.
It is what makes our (and all) suns burn, as they convert that most basic of the universe’s elements, hydrogen, into helium (and, occasionally, also into higher elements, such as carbon, oxygen, lead, gold, et al…).
Sadly, E=mc^2 also allows the Atomic Bomb… It allows a small bit of matter to be converted into a great deal of energy, instantly…
We humans witnessed the possibilities of this equation in Japan. Over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, to be exact…
Over two hundred thousand died… In a matter of seconds… (No pun intended.)
Einstein was never comfortable with his discovery. He felt that this knowledge was something humans were not ready for.
And he did make mistakes. For example, he never accepted Quantum Uncertainty, to his dying day. “God does not play dice with the Universe.”
Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable.
But the truth is, by definition, the truth.
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 4:58 PM
NB We speak here about the Revived Roman Empire because the Roman Empire did not end as those of the Babylonians, Medes & Persians or Greeks that preceeded it.
When the hordes from the north conquered the Roman Empire in the fifth century A.D., they did not unite to form another empire. Instead individual nations emerged out of the old Roman Empire. Some of those nations and others stemming from them have continued till the present day.
The ten-nation confederacy of the future anticipated in these prophecies would naturally be considered a revival of the Roman Empire if for no other reason than that it is portrayed as an integral part of the fourth empire.
Some consider the present Age as the 10-horned era of the fourth beast. Others, however, hold that the time of the 10 horns is yet future, that the present Church Age is not seen in this vision, and that 10 kings will coexist over a future revived [or realigned] Roman Empire.)
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 5:09 PM
Rise and fall of Antichrist part 2 continued – according to Daniel 7;26- 28
In Daniel 7:26, the angel continued to explain that the heavenly court (v. 10) would pass judgment on the little horn, and God will remove his dominion and destroy it forever (v. 11; 2 Thess. 2:8; Rev. 19:20).
In other words the global one world government that is now being already set up, and that will come to its full fruition or zenith under the Antichrist will be destroyed. The fifth kingdom, under the Son of Man’s leadership (v. 14), will then commence (Daniel 7:27)
The angel again stressed the role that the saints or the people of the Most High”will have in this kingdom.
The Son of Man’s kingdom will be endless and worldwide. Notice that the titles “Highest One” (God the Father) and “His [the Son of Man's]” are interchangeable, pointing to the deity of the Son of Man.
This verse also clarifies that the saints are not the same as the Son of Man, “saints” being plural and “His” and “Him” singular. The kingdom is not just the rule of the saints; it is fundamentally the rule of the Son of Man in which the saints participate.
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 6:02 PM
The exegeting Daniel 7 in developing a theology of the Rise of AntiChrist is important because of the central position of this chapter along with Daniel chapter 2 in developing a time line for prophecy, and for merging other scriptures about this person, such as 2 Thesalonians into that timeline.
It is noteworthy that only Daniel sets up a time line for world history from the divine standpoint- called the time of the gentiles by Jesus.
Note also that when the two pairs of brothers among the disciples asked Jesus about signs concerning the end of the age, that the Lord interposed a prophetic word from Daniel that was well known to them.
God had selected Israel as his chosen people to teach the world his ways, but they failed miserably. In Daniel 2 we see Neubuchadnezzer in charge of the know world wondering to him self “What next?’
This was explained to him in a dream which was interpreted by Daniel in chapter two. This dream has largely come to pass, except for the part concerning the ten toes of the image in Daniel 2- or what will happen to the revived Roman Empire at the end of the age.
This is relevant at least to serious believers, since this time is already at our doorstep, it seems.
Many things seem to indicate this. One of the major things that suggest this is the rampant apostasy and apathy in the church today- which some people think is the “falling away” of 2 Thessalonians 2.
Christopher Halsall // May 21, 2009 at 6:29 PM
It is perhaps worth bringing forward (once again) the critical “Double-slit experiment” (first thought to have been conducted in 1801).
This empirical experiment shows that the Universe reveals itself only partially, and then only as a function as to how we ask the question.
Is light a partial? Yes.
Is light a wave front? Yes.
Is light therefore both a partial and a wave front? No. Or, at least, not both at the same time… Again, it depends on how we ask the question.
And this same experiment can be conducted with electrons, protons and atoms…
Some of we simple, stupid humans would like to think that we can *know* what the future holds.
But, modern knowledge shows us that we *cannot* know everything. It is forbidden. It is, provably, beyond our ability.
One need only spend a little bit of time within the Mandelbrot set et al to know that we pathetic humans cannot know.
Does this then prove the existence of God?
Possibly.
But probably not the God most believe in….
David // May 21, 2009 at 6:32 PM
Gosh Chris we see that you are operating in high bandwith mode :-)
Christopher Halsall // May 21, 2009 at 6:37 PM
@David… LOL…
Are you complaining? [wink]
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 7:26 PM
Here we see a clear example of the spirit of antichrist at work!
Zoe // May 21, 2009 at 8:08 PM
GP, you are doing a great service on BU where so many can have a proper, sound, concise scholarly presentation of the Biblical prophetic scope of the very End Times we are all living in, literally unfolding before our very lives, day by day.
How anyone, can be so stupid, beefheaded, dense, dull, and dumb, pinheaded, to even begin to imagine, that all of this was concocked by anyone, and then played out over thousands of years, exactly as planned, other than by Almighty God, who divinely inspired His Prophets and gave a glimmer of future events, would have to be really ‘demented’ in the highest, or just as intellectually dishonest as those evolutionary pseudo-scientists, in believing that this awesome Universe, and the incedible live forms came into existence from ‘nothing’ without an Omnipotent Creator.
The prophet Daniel recorded his facinating vision about the revival of this fourth world empire, Rome, in the final days preceding the coming Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Daniel’s ancient prophecy remarkably predicted that the ancient Roman Empire would rise again in the last generation of this age. Once more, Rome will take its place during the stage of world history as the dominant worlds power, during the closing events leading to the return of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah. Daniel also predicted that the final restoration of the fourth empire, Rome, would be in an unprecedented form of a super state confederacy composed of ten nations that would be led by a powerful dictator. The leader, the “little horn,” will defeat three nations in a crisis and seize power over the ten nations.
From the time of the disintegration of the weatern Roman Empire in approximately A.D 410, until the closing days of World War II, the peoples of Europe, the Middle East, and northern Africa have experienced ceaseless struggles. Warfare continued between the growing nation states of Europe that grew out of the ancient provinces of the Roman Empire. Throughout the centuries the dream of recreating the Roman Empire has motivated political, religious, and military leaders. The first attempt began with the failed plan by Charles the Great, known as Charlemange, in A.D. 800, to recreate the empire as the Holy Roman Empire. This debacle was followed by numerous attempts over a period of many centuries by various Roman pontiffs to fill the political and military vacuum by creating a new empire under the tutelege of the Roman church to unite the warring factions of Europe.
Despite the powerful efforts by England’s King Henry II to create a true European empire uniting the territories of England and France in the late 1100s, that effort was abandoned after his death. Almost six centuries later, during the revolutionary chaos throughout Europe that followed the French Revolution, Emperor Napoleon seized power in A.D. 1800 to pursue his brilliant military plan to receate an empire; but his grand efforts were defeated by the continental European powers who joined with the growing military forces of England.
Adolph Hitler, also had grand plans to create a powerful political, economic, and military colossus that threatened the whole world between 1939 and 1945.
None of these attempts succeded, for it was not in Almighty God’s time table, who is in absolute control over the affairs of man.
Antichrist and the Revival of Rome.
The prophet Daniel rose from the lowly position as a conquered Jewish slave in exile, to become the respected Prime Minister of Babylon, the greatest empire of the ancient world. His remarkable ability to interpret dreams and prophetic visions brought him to the attention of King Nebuchadnezzar. The King of Babylon had a strange dream on a great metallic human-like image composed of four different metals; gold, silver, bronze, and iron. Daniel, gifted by God, interpreted the King’s strange dream and explained that this image symbolized the future of four world empires from the time of Daniel in the 6thy century BC until the end of the age. This remarkable prophecy envisioned that there would be only FOUR major empires that would rule the world from the Babylonian Empire in 606 BC, until the time of the second Coming of Christ as Messiah-King.
All of this has come to past exactly has prophesied by God’s prophet, Daniel, awaiting the final restoration of the revised Roman Empire.
The first empire represented by the head of gold, was the Babylonian Empire, (Dan. 2:37-38). The second was represented by the chest of silver, was the Media-Persia Empire; which was followed by the third empire of Greece depicted by bronze thighs. Finally, the fourth empire was the Roman Empire represented by the two iron-legs correctly predicting the division of the fourth empire into Eastern and Western Rome.
The final portion of the metallic image was the two feet composed of iron and clay, which represents the final stage of the revived Roman Empire in the years leading up to the Battle of Aramgeddon.
The prophetic meaning of the great metallic image reveals that the decrease in value of the metal from the head of ‘gold’ chest of ’silver’ thighs of ‘bronze’ legs of ‘iron’ and feet of both iron and clay, indicates a regression from the monarchy of Babylon as symbolized by Gold to Iron and Clay, representing a combination of dictatorial rule and democracy in the final stage. However, the increasing strength of the metals symbolized the fact that each successive empire would have greater military power. History demonstrates the fulfillment of this remarkable prophecy.
But, this astonishing and amazing prophecy of Daniel, predicted that, despite all the plans and ambitions of Kings, Emperors, and Generals, to conquer the world during the past two thousand years, NO fifth empire has EVER succeeded in replacing the fourth world empire. Many conquerors tried and failed, including, Mohammed, Charlemange, Genghis Khan, Frederick Barbarossa, Napoleon, the British Empire, Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, and Russia. Each of these in turn tried to construct a fifth world empire to replace ancient Rome, but each FAILED UTTERLY. Only God Almighty knows the future and He will bring it to pass despite the well-laid plans of men!!
Christopher Halsall // May 21, 2009 at 8:12 PM
@GP: “Here we see a clear example of the spirit of antichrist at work!
Are you actually suggesting that if Christ was presented with the results of the double-slit experiment, that he wouldn’t have found it intriguing?
Please note that this experiment *could* have been (and may have been) conducted in Christ’s time.
All it takes is a prism (triangular transparent crystal), some foil (gold was regularly pounded into such for gilding) and a dark room….
Christopher Halsall // May 21, 2009 at 8:31 PM
@Zoe… A serious question…
Why do you get so upset (and so insulting) when anyone suggests the *possibility* that perhaps the Universe is more complex than even you and yours believe?
Truly, I do not reject your god. I truly believe it exists, if for no other reason than you (an others) believe in it.
Just like every other god anyone else believes in….
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 8:36 PM
Zoe
Thanks for trying to maintain a high level of Biblical scholarship on this thread .
We can expect to see the enemy at work as he uses his disciples to distract those who might be interested in learning about eschatolgy.
This great doctrine of the Bible is taught by few preachers today, as they spend their time sowing “seed” or beggingfor money, instead of feeding thier flocks.
As we develop this teaching on the antichrist, we will exegete the first 12 verses of 2 Thessalonians2 .
Today I listened to Adrian Rogers preach on this subject. Here is his amazing outline
1- THE MOCKERY OF GOD IS RECOUNTED v 3
2- THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY IS RESTRAINED v 6
3- THE MINISTRY OF THE SPIRIT WILL BE REMOVED (verse 6&7)
4- THE MASTERY OF SATAN IS RELEASED v 7
5 THE MISERY OF MAN IS REDOUBLED v 11-12
6 THE MAJESTY OF THE SAVIOR IS REVEALED
You can listen at
http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Love_Worth_Finding/archives.asp?bcd=12/11/2008
Christopher Halsall // May 21, 2009 at 8:41 PM
@BU Family…
For another, perhaps more critical, perspective…
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-05-20
David // May 21, 2009 at 8:41 PM
GP
On a point of privilege (been listening to too much parliamentary debates of late:)
Aren’t you (Christians) suppose to not only DIVIDE the word but TARGET those who you describe as above?
What is the purpose Sire of directing your message and elucidations to the converted?
If you agree then you must ask Zoe to engage man!
Rumplestilskin // May 21, 2009 at 8:56 PM
Chris Halsall,
Many times you discuss matters with others, that I am not interested in.
Sometimes I disagree with your opinions.
However, your May 21, 2009 at 6:29 pm, posting is quite ‘there’.
I agree. The whole concept is that we can only understand within the own parameters of our own knowledge, therefore our understanding is itself finite, rather than truly ‘knowing and understanding’.
Peace
Bush Tea // May 21, 2009 at 9:08 PM
“How anyone, can be so stupid, beefheaded, dense, dull, and dumb, pinheaded….”
***************************************
@GP /Zoe
I really believe that you guys would do well to take a deep breath, take a step back and look at yourselves…..
Particularly Zoe…. why do you find it necessary to insult the intelligence / knowledge / motive of other bloggers – just because they take a contrary position to yours? Is not that the whole point of debate?
It is when others disagree that we get the chance to really test our knowledge and conviction. I actually find it quite stimulating and have been able to reinforce , refine and expand my understanding greatly through the interactions with the bloggers here on BU….
…take it easy men. There is no need or justification in even righteous indignation here – far less down right hateful and aggressive language.
With regard to prophecies, there is no requirement for non-believers to be forced to accept these.
You are only required to perform the role of witness, so that when the time comes, none can honestly say that they were not advised / warned / upbraided.
Unfortunately, Bush Tea tends to err on the other side – like my boy Jonah…. but I know that I cannot deal with that whale stuff – so I really appreciate the platform that BU provides. LOL.
Zoe // May 21, 2009 at 9:23 PM
CH, I don’t follow your question, as a Christian I believe that the Universe is infinitely and vastly more complex than any of us can comprehend, even as Einstein said:
‘The incomprehensibility of the Universe is that it is incomprehensible.”
Straight talk // May 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM
BT:
Don’t be too hard on Zoe, she has so little time on this earth to make her convictions valid, and that desperation sometimes bubbles to the surface as insults.
Although disagreeing entirely with her cause, I sympathise with a fellow evangelic.
When what is obvious to your world view seems inexplicable to your fellows, frustration is bound to impinge on better judgement,
I am confident you know the feeling.
Zoe // May 21, 2009 at 10:05 PM
Bush Tea, when I have occasion to, I call a spade a spade, as I’ve had to do with some on this blog, as their invectives in describing facts and evidence that cannot be coherently or logically refuted, requires such responses.
Even our Loving Saviour and Lord, had some scathing remarks and denunciation for those that needed to be told so.
“But when He (Jesus) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to His baptism, He said to them, ‘Brood of VIPERS! Who warned you to flee from the warth to come.” (Matt. 3: 7).
Hear Jesus again:
“Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the Devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He (Satan) was a muderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is NO TRUTH in him. When he speaks a LIE, he speaks from his own resourses, for he is a LIAR and the father of it. Because I tell you the TRUTH, you do not believe Me.” (John 8:43-45) emphasis added.
There are those on this blog who want to learn the truth, but, they are others who are are virulent, strongly poisonous, and bitterly hostile to Almighty God and His Word, and that is their choice, but, I will not stand quietly and not say to them, what they are, as they also do to those of us of are standing up for God’s Word, and His eternal truth!!
So it be!!
Bush Tea // May 21, 2009 at 10:39 PM
Understood Zoe.
However I seem to recall that the persons with whom Jesus tended to loose his cool were the then religious teachers.
He tended to show little patience towards those who should be leading the public in the correct path.
…on the other hand, he displayed great patience and tolerance for the non religious doubters.- such as the woman at the well… my boy Nocodemus, and even the thief on the cross.
Is it possible that were Jesus to log on to BU, that GP, yourself and even BT may be the target of his impatience -rather than “ROK-head” (ROTFL) , Rohan and CH?
…just asking…
Gear Box // May 21, 2009 at 10:51 PM
I had a dog that spen’ he whole life chasing after he own tail…
AAAAAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhhhh
Georgie Porgie // May 21, 2009 at 11:02 PM
David
Re your point of privilege. I am always keen to rightly divide the Word of truth on BU and elsewhere. But I don’t think that there is a need to target folk who are deliberately interested in distracting the sound teaching of the Word. If folk don’t have something relevant to the discussion, it is better not to post. I tend not to post on matters about which I know little or nothing. I seek to listen and learn.
I am not going to be engaging obvious hecklers in any discussion or debate, about Bible truths. To them I apply Proverbs 26:4 & 5, accordingly.
Consequently, you will notice that I don’t respond to the posts of some members at all! It just does not make sense to waste the time. There is nothing to be gained by anyone. On the basis of 1 Peter 3:15, I think I have an obligation to answer every man that asks me a reason of the hope that is in me or that I declare. And I try to do that to the best of my ability.
The purpose of directing my message and elucidations to the converted (Zoe) is to encourage him to earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints as cited in Jude 3. No one else on this forum seems to even try to do so.
@ BT
I do not insult the intelligence / knowledge / motive of other bloggers, and you know that. I don’t mind debating with you personally, as I have demonstrated several times, because you at least stay on point and seek to post issues that are relevant to the topic. Technician and Hopi and even Not Saved tend to ask reasonable questions.
BTW, the people who post on this blog about Bible matters do not test either my knowledge or conviction, nor do they cause me to reinforce, refine and expand my understanding of the Bible (with the exception of Zoe, who is wel read on the subjects discussed). For that I read authors steeped in inductive methods of Bible study, and commentaries from whom I can learn something.
I have not asked anyone to accept Bible prophecies, or my interpretation thereof, nor have I used hateful and aggressive language.
I have simply expressed my discernment that a particular poster seeks to distract from the presentation of the Word, all the time, whilst adding nothing relevant to the discussion. I have no doubt in my mind, from the submission, that that behavior is the spirit of antichrist, and I have said so very plainly.
I will nevertheless follow your admonishment to perform the role of witness, so that when the time comes, none can honestly say that they were not advised or warned.
BTW, with respect to Jonah, the book of Jonah is not a prophesy per se, but a few stories about a prophet. Jonah’s prophesy is some where in Kings.
Perhaps the major importance of the book of Jonah is what Jesus said in Matthew about the major event in this book, as a type of his resurrection. The whale is a mere incidental in the book of Jonah. The essential in Jonah is God’s dealings with Jonah.
As you said, Jesus displayed great patience and tolerance for folk such as the woman at the well, and Niccodemus, inter alia, but he certainly did not have a lot of time for those who were obviously playing the fool.
Were Jesus to log on to BU, GP wont be the target of his impatience, because GP would be very quiet, and listening and seeking to learn from what he had to say. Thats what I usually do when I meet someone who is sharing the Word well.
Not Saved // May 21, 2009 at 11:20 PM
@GP
thanks man !
Hopi // May 22, 2009 at 12:39 PM
@Georgie Porgie……. Got to join Not Saved —- ‘thanks man.’
You know that old saying ‘a mind is a terrible thing to waste’
Do you think that the majority can defeat this beast or should we wait on Jesus Christ to come and save us from it?
At what age were you conscious that you were a christian?
Were you given an option between Christ and another Saviour?
JJ // May 22, 2009 at 12:44 PM
Hi Georgie Porgie,
The following is my response to you, respectfully…
QUOTE:
“The whole issue of the Bible is about how God deals with the sin issue. Thats the message of the Bible from Genesis 3:15.”
I agree.
QUOTE: “Those persons who deal with the sin issue according to God’s plan are in heaven as early as Revelation 4.”
Yes, I agree again.
QUOTE: “Revelation 6-19 deals generally and specifically with those who elect to deal with the sin issue according according to their own way.”
Don’t know if I understand your wording… Please clarify..
QUOTE: “You seem to be confused and inconsistent about the judgement of God. You ask WILL THE SAME GOD WHO SENT HIS ONLY SON TO DIE FOR US THEN PUNISH THESE CHILDREN WITH TOTAL FURY?”
I’m not at all confused. The question is rhetorical with an obvious answer: No!
QUOTE: “Several scriptures teach that God did indeed send his son to die for the sins of ALL MEN. In other words his work on the cross was SUFFICIENT for all. But several other scriptures reveal that his work on the cross is EFFICIENT only for those who accept this work. An example of these verses is 1 Timothy 4:10. Christ is there described as the Savior of all men, especially those that believe.”
I’m in complete agreement with this.
“These is a separation. There is the judgement seat of Christ for believers, and the great white throne judgement for unbelievers.”
I completely agree!
“The saints are in heaven in Rev 4, the aints are not!”
There are 24 Elders (redeemed human beings) in Revelation 4. But if you mean that ALL the saints are in heaven in Revelation 4, then you’re incorrect. I’m not sure what you mean by “the aints are not.”
“The issue here is not microchips as the reason for receiving or experiencing the wrath of God. The discussion is about trying to discern the nature of the mark of the beast. It is clear that there will be a mark. It is unclear what the nature of the mark will be.”
You are unclear what the nature of the mark will be. I’m just trying to nudge you away from this microchip interpretation.
“It is difficult to see that the number 666 written on a person will be enough to differentiate from those who have received the mark from those who have not taken it, since anyone can obviously mark 666 on their foreheads to fool the enforcers.”
I agree. The mark of the beast is not some physical mark!
“What I have said in clear English, is that I believe that there will be by that time numerous technologies ( and many are evident already) that can easily be incorporated into the actual mark, and use to monitor the whereabouts of folk who have the mark and identify those that only have a pseudo mark..”
I disagree! God also marks His people. Look at the “mark” mentioned in Revelation 13:16. Three verses later John saw a group called the 144,000 with the “Father’s name written in their foreheads” Revelation 14:1.
So, one group gets the mark of the beast while the other group gets the Mark of God, that is, the name of God in their foreheads. Referring to the saved, the very last chapter of the Bible says, “They shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.” Revelation 22:4. Hence both saints and sinners will all have something in their foreheads one day. Does this mean that God’s people will walk around with actual visible letters written on their foreheads?
The apostle John, who wrote Revelation, also saw an evil scarlet woman riding a beast. “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS” Revelation 17:5. No one doubts this is a symbolic prophecy. There will be no real prostitute riding a beast and therefore the writing of that mysterious name upon her forehead is also symbolic as the woman here symbolically represents a Church.
Was the mark the Lord set upon Cain a physical mark or was it symbolic also? Genesis 4:15 reads, “And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.” Did Cain spend the rest of his life with writing on His forehead and would anyone have acknowledged it?
And notice this – the idea of the hand and forehead is not only found in Revelation! It is by no coincidence that Moses speaking of the Ten Commandments told the Israelites, “These Commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts…Tie them as symbols on your HANDS and bind them on your FOREHEADS” Deuteronomy 6:6, 8. Note the KJV translates “on your foreheads” to “frontlets between thine eyes” which means forehead. Again Moses said, “Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your HANDS and bind them on your FOREHEADS.” Deuteronomy 11:18. In other words, God said His Ten Commandment law was to be a sign upon our hands and foreheads. Where does the mark of the beast go? What about the Seal of God?
QUOTE: “It is clear that prophesy is being fulfilled before or eyes and that clarity is being made to those who are discerning. Those who are ignorant and whose vision tends to 0/0 will not see, or can not see, now, then or at any other time.”
I agree with you.
QUOTE: “What ever form the mark takes ; by whatever form the mark is applied, monitored and enforced…”
Does this contradicts your previous statement that those who are discerning will understand?
QUOTE: “… God will pour out his wrath on an unbelieving people who miss the rapture.”
You’re deceived my friend. The whole rapture theory is unscriptural. Prove to me this rapture theory using the Bible, please!
QUOTE: You can therefore split hairs, engage in semantics and ask questions that evince your poor understanding of English.”
You can do likewise.
QUOTE: I think my presentation is clear and as sound as a bell.”
You may think so. But you’re not the criterion or standard of truth.
QUOTE: “At no time did I say that implanted microchips WILL be used.”
I never said you said this either!
QUOTE: “I said in clear English that there are a range of technologies now in vogue, that people take for granted and as the norm, that way well be incorporated in the mark of the beast and might be used in its application, monitoring and enforcement.”
Not really to be honest.
QUOTE: “You can now demonstrate that the mark of the beast has zip to do with chips or technology or any such thing!You can now demonstrate your view of how the mark will be applied, monitored and enforced.”
Sure. I shall do this. Give me some time as it’s the long weekend here in the UK and I only have the internet at work. I shall respond on Tuesday!
QUOTE: “It is one thing to rant, rave and ramble. It is another to present a logical thesis with information and detail that is plausible and accords with what is hap[pening currently.”
Watch and see this happen on Tuesday!
QUOTE: “I will remind you that when the first predictions that Christ would be hung on a tree was made, the method of death by crucifixion was not yet invented. Did God not employ via the Romans the technology of the day? Might we not wonder if he will also employ the contemporary technology in that day?”
Fair enough.
JJ // May 22, 2009 at 12:52 PM
Hi Zoe,
I’d like to do the same with you respectfully…
QUOTE: “You got it all confused, what do you think the ‘Microchip’ is, if in fact this does happen to be the ‘Antichrist’ mark of the Beast, BUT SIN, the very demonic, Satanically inspired, and IMPOSED mark of the Beast, a vehement last attempt by Satan to control most of mankind, just before Jesus returns to utterly destroy the Devil, and the multitides who worshipped ‘him’ by talking his Mark!”
You’re saying the chip is sin???? You’re the one who’s confused! Who gave you authority to define what sin is? It is God’s prerogative to define sin and His alone. His definition of sin is that SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW – 1 John 3:4.
QUOTE: “Almighty God’s prophets, Daniel and John, both predicted that the nations of the world would ultimately surrender their ’sovereignty’ to the Antichrist in hope that he would bring security and true peace.”
Wrong. Prove this please. The prophecies of Daniel and John show that God will destroy the nations of the world!
QUOTE: “A large number of politicians of key nations throughout the world have abandoned belief in their nation’s sovereignty, and now belief that the only way to prevent a devasting world war, is for every nation to surender its sovereignty to a future world government, which is what this carfully planned ‘World Economic Crisis’ is all about, for without such a crisis, it would not be possible to craftly and cunningly bring about and institute, One World Government, the ‘Antichrist’ World Order.”
Ok.
QUOTE: “The Scriptures, God’s Word, warn that the earth will NEVER know true peace, until, the Prince of Peace comes, The Lord Jesus Christ.”
I agree with you.
QUOTE: “The Antichrist will use men’s deep longing for peace “to conquer” the nations of the world and force them to join his growing world government.”
This is where you’re incorrect. This above scenario is a perverse interpretation of Scripture.
QUOTE: “There is something mysterious and fascinating about the Mark of the Beast that has held a unique place in the minds of men for many centuries. The mark will no doubt be related to both the ‘name of the beast’ and ‘the number of his name” ‘666.’ It will indicate that the individual willingly worships the ‘beast’ the satanic Antichrist. If someone does not possess this Mark, they will not be able to buy or sell during the Great Tribulation.”
Ok.
QUOTE: “The universal application of this system was technically impossible until recent times, yet now the introduction of laser scans, implantable computer chips, and computerized financial systems make it very feasible.”
You are assuming the mark is a physical piece of technology. This is a false assumption.
QUOTE: “The introduction of this diabolical Mark of the Beast system will place humanity in an invisible economic prison. The worldwide economic and political system of the last days will be under the control of the Antichrist and the False Prophet.
All that has and is currently transpiring with the ‘Economic Crisis’ worldwide, is no accident, that has been carefully planned and orchastrated for this express purpose, without which, the One World Government, the Antichrist world government cannot become a reality.
Obama has been selected at this time, for this purpose, by the wicked World Order, Antichrist elite; for he is all a part of this sinister plan and plot. His charm, rhetoric, etc, etc., is part of what is needed in such a leader.”
Ok. Tune in on Tuesday for the truth.
Georgie Porgie // May 22, 2009 at 2:03 PM
JJ
Welcome to BU
It is interesting to meet some one on BU with some knowledge of the Word. Even though we do not agree on everything, at least you make some sense.
Here are my views on some of the areas where we seem to disagree.
QUOTE: “Revelation 6-19 deals generally and specifically with those who elect to deal with the sin issue according according to their own way.”
Don’t know if I understand your wording… Please clarify.
Revelation 6-19 deals with the judgement that will be meted out on the earth and on men, on the false church and on the world system including its commerce.
.
QUOTE: “You seem to be confused and inconsistent about the judgement of God. You ask WILL THE SAME GOD WHO SENT HIS ONLY SON TO DIE FOR US THEN PUNISH THESE CHILDREN WITH TOTAL FURY?”
I’m not at all confused. The question is rhetorical with an obvious answer: No!
I don’t agree with you since there are several verses that teach about the judgement of God. I am sure that you have read them. Perhaps you can inform me why you think that a loving God wont punish ungodly men severely in the light of 2 Peter 3:9 inter alia
Re “The saints are in heaven in Rev 4, the aints are not!”
Q Please kindly me enlighten me as to what you consider the phrase “ Come up hither” means in Revelation 4:1. In its primary interpretation John is addressed. Most scholars believe that this invitation also signifies the rapture. I hold to that view. I would be interested to hear you view of when the saints do go to heaven in the light of Paul’s pronouncement in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, and where you place their ascent relative to the teachings in Revelation.
Q Why don’t you think that the saints are in heaven by Revelation 4?
By the aints (was rhyming with saints) refer to those who have not received Jesus as Savior before the rapture.
Q Why do you think that the 24 Elders in Revelation 4 are redeemed human beings. What is your biblical warrant for this?
Re You are unclear what the nature of the mark will be. I’m just trying to nudge you away from this microchip interpretation.
No one knows what the mark will be exactly.. I believe that the mark is a literal mark as I believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible including Revelation. We do know that use of microchips is prevalent by vets in the USA to monitor the whereabouts of people’s precious stray pets, and that they are also used for recording financial information. My view which I have clearly articulated is that microchips might very well be utilized in the application of the mark and its monitoring and enforcement along with several other technologies which have come on stream in let0s say (to be conservative) the last 100 years or so. You are free to disagree, but could you give your views on the possible use of any technology with respect to the mark of the beast?
I said in my previous post that there are a range of technologies now in vogue, that people take for granted and as the norm, that way well be incorporated in the mark of the beast and might be used in its application, monitoring and enforcement. I stand by that. Life was going on as usual when the flood came, and life will be going on as usual when the rapture occurs, and when the events that occur afterwards occurs.
I see that you don’t believe in the rapture. Please show me that there will be no rapture!
Whereas I agree with you that God also marks the 144,000., he does not have to enforce or monitor this mark like the beast. These folk are quite willing to suffer or die for taking the mark. Can you amplify why God’s mark would be different from the Beast’s mark?
Whereas there will be no real prostitute riding a beast but you better believe that the false church symbolized by the name MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS in Revelation 17:5 and the cosmos diabolicus and the world’s economic system that will be destroyed in Revelation 18 are prostitutes by their behavior. Even to day much of Christendom is prostituting itself for filthy lucres sake, and world governments and the banking system and other facets of the cosmos diabolicus and the world’s economic system are bone fide prostitutes!
I understand from my studies of Hermeneutics what symbols and types and allegories and litotes etc etc are So I unders tand Genesis 4:15, ” Deuteronomy 6:6, 8 and Deuteronomy 11:18 etc
I look forward to you demonstrating your view of how the mark of the beast will be applied, monitored and enforced.”
Georgie Porgie // May 22, 2009 at 2:04 PM
Hopi
Q Do you think that the majority can defeat this beast or should we wait on Jesus Christ to come and save us from it?
I think the best way is to accept Christ as Savior.Then you wont have to encounter the beast at all! Jesus will indeed defeat the Beast at Armageddon
Q At what age were you conscious that you were a christian?
I gave my heart to the Lord on 8 March 1968 at the age of 16.
Q Were you given an option between Christ and another Saviour?
I heard the Gospel message on the text John 12:24. Made sense to me. Nothing in my studies has caused me to change my mind.
I cant say that I was given an option between Christ and another Saviour then; but surely everyone has a choice between Jesus and whatever all the time. Drugs, Sex Entertaiment, Money etc
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 2:26 PM
@GP: “I cant say that I was given an option between Christ and another Saviour then; but surely everyone has a choice between Jesus and whatever all the time. Drugs, Sex Entertaiment [sic], Money etc
(ROTFL…)
If I may please give a few other examples of alternatively available believe systems as to those biased options presented by GP’s immediately above…
Newton. Leibniz. Einstein. Heisenberg. Bohr. Mandelbrot. Penrose. Hawking.
Et al…
Georgie Porgie // May 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM
50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture
Historical Doctrine of Imminency
1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord’s return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.
2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.
3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries. In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation. Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.
4. The exhortation to be comforted by the “coming of the Lord” (1Thes 4:18) is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.
5. We are exhorted to look for the “Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.
6. Again, we are to “purify ourselves” in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.
7. The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.
Nature of the Church
(Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church.)
8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
9. The church is “not appointed to wrath” (Rom 5:9; 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the “great day of their wrath.”
10. The Church will not be “overtaken by the Day of the Lord.” (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)
11. The church will be “kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world.” (Rev. 3:10)
12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).
13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)
14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)
15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.
16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.
17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.
18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages , as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.
The Work of the Holy Spirit
19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.
20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the “lawless one” is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.
21. The “falling away” in 2 Thes 2:3 would better be understood in its context as “the departure.” This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.
22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)
The Hermeneutical Argument
23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truely literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.
24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God’s dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming
25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.
26. The “four and twenty elders” in rev 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.
27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev 19:7-10.
28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).
29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.
30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.
31. The Judgment of Israel (Ez 20:34-38) occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.
Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.
32. At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives.
33. At the time of the Rapture, the Mt of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided forming a valley east of Jerusalem.
34. At the time of the rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.
35. At the time of the rapture, the world is no judge for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is Judged by the King of kings.
36. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation.
37. The rapture is immanent whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.
38. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.
39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.
40. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.
41. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.
The Nature of the Tribulation
42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the “great tribulation” and the tribulations in general which we all experience.
43. The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deut 4:29-30. Jer 30:4-11, Dan 9:24-27, Dan 12:1-2)
44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
46. In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Rev 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Rev 11.
47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.
48. The Unity of Daniel’s 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.
49. The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by “The Lord Himself.”
50. Rev 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come … He who testifieth of these things saith “Yea, I come quickly, AMEN. COME LORD JESUS.
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 4:57 PM
@BU Family… Please forgive me for this… But…
(-1) ^ -2 == /i/. (Significantly: Out pops the imaginary plane.)
Z = Z^2 + C, as interpreted on the complex plane. (Significantly: Out pops beautiful chaos.)
Or, put another way… I would argue that we simple and sad humans *cannot* know everything, if the above two simple equations can produce such beauty and complexity…
Not Saved // May 22, 2009 at 6:17 PM
Halsall, both your equations are wrong..
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 6:21 PM
@Not Saved.
Please expand on your claims.
Not Saved // May 22, 2009 at 6:21 PM
“I would argue that we simple and sad humans *cannot* know everything, if the above two simple equations can produce such beauty and complexity…”
———
Non sequitur
Not Saved // May 22, 2009 at 6:22 PM
figure it out yourself
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 6:30 PM
@Not Saved: “figure it out yourself
Actually, your right. My above should have read:
((-1) ^ -2) ^ 2 == /i/
I still think my equation of the Mandelbrot set is a valid form. But please let me know if I’ve made a mistake there as well.
And, separately, I still think my root point is valid….
(ROTFL….)
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM
s/your/you’re/
Not Saved // May 22, 2009 at 6:36 PM
sorry, still wrong
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Ah, hell… (LOL…)
Actually, I’m wrong. I was right the first time…
(-1) ^ -2 == /i/.
/i/ ^ 2 == [1, -1]….
Not Saved // May 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM
no, still wrong
Micro Mock Engineer // May 22, 2009 at 6:45 PM
LOL Not Saved… take him out of his misery nuh.
Not Saved // May 22, 2009 at 6:52 PM
MME, I knew you had to be watching…
Not Saved // May 22, 2009 at 6:54 PM
try fixing the mandelbrot set, its an easier correction
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 7:03 PM
@Not Saved: “try fixing the mandelbrot set, its an easier correction
Ummm… Z = Z^2 + C. Z and C are both complex numbers…
I fail to see the error. Please feel free to put me out of my misery… (ROTFL…)
http://www.ddewey.net/mandelbrot/
Anonymous // May 22, 2009 at 7:04 PM
Halsall try;
(-1)^(1/2) =i
Z = Z^2 + C , C> (1/4)
Micro Mock Engineer // May 22, 2009 at 7:07 PM
LOL… just because Chris does correct your grammar, you have to rough him up like that on his math? Now a Christian woulda handle dat situation wid far more compassion. :-)
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 7:13 PM
ROTF…
You are right. I am wrong…
(-1) ^ (1/2) == /i/ is correct. (-1) ^ -2 is not…
Damn… I hate it when that happens…
MME: if I’m ever wrong about anything, I want to know about it! (LOL…)
David // May 22, 2009 at 7:16 PM
@Chris
What is happening?
How you let these people carry you on so scruffy?
You know that you have to prepare for some licks from GP?
Knight of the Long Knives // May 22, 2009 at 7:19 PM
I cant’t believe after 2000 years humans are still waiting on the Messiah and this “rapture”. I very firmly believe in God and have done a great deal of research into many religions both montheistic and “pagan” and have seen nothing to convince me that this world will come to an end at the hands of any god. While I have a great deal of respect for some of the posters here, like GP, no amount of quoted scripture will change my mind or convince me of the divinity of Jesus or of the existence of the “holy ghost” being.
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 7:35 PM
@David… ROTFL…
Hey, I made a mistake. It happens.
Those who live by the Maths, die by the Maths…. (smile.)
Hopi // May 22, 2009 at 7:38 PM
@Georgie…..On your 1st answer, didn’t the Lord say he will help those who help themselves? Where will you be when Jesus is fighting this beast at armageddon? And will he appear in the physical form?
2nd answer… At age 16, how much knowledge of self and the world were you in possession of that you could have given your ‘heart’ to Jesus?
And how does John 12:24 relate to you? How did you die and bring forth fruit? And did you at any one point and time question your religious beliefs? Have you ever given thought to other ideologies outside of what is written in the bible? Did you ever say to yourself that maybe the TRUTH and POWER is somewhere INSIDE of me and not some external source?
Is there any spiritual purpose to the Pineal Gland?
Micro Mock Engineer // May 22, 2009 at 7:41 PM
@KotLK, like your name should be Dark Knight… you trying to start up Zoe or wha?
@Chris, don’t worry about it… best to laugh at (and learn from) your mistakes… unless of course you were designing a bridge or a plane… then you’ll want Not Saved to do a peer review first bo. :-)
By the way… it would probably have been more appropriate to say imaginary axis (or dimension) rather than “imaginary plane”. :-)
Georgie Porgie // May 22, 2009 at 7:58 PM
Hopi Hopi what a naughty girl
Q1 – didn’t the Lord say he will help those who help themselves?
Actually that concept is Bajan and not found anywhere in the Bible.
Q2 Where will you be when Jesus is fighting this beast at armageddon? And will he appear in the physical form?
According to Jude 14 and other Scriptures, I expect to be close by in the throng watching him doing it single handedly.
He is expected to come visibly in physical form according to scriptures like Acts 1:11
Q3 2nd answer… At age 16, how much knowledge of self and the world were you in possession of that you could have given your ‘heart’ to Jesus?
Probably none and none, but I don’t regret it Hopi. Just imagine if I wasn’t a believer I might have joined the BLP when I was approached in my front yard after the massive defeat in 1987.
Q4 And how does John 12:24 relate to you? How did you die and bring forth fruit?
That requires an exegesis of the passage. It is the Lord that died to bring forth fruit here though.
Q And did you at any one point and time question your religious beliefs?
Some times I wonder why are the wicked seemingly prospering, and why are idiots getting by? But I am comforted by several scriptures.
Q Have you ever given thought to other ideologies outside of what is written in the bible? NO
Q Did you ever say to yourself that maybe the TRUTH and POWER is somewhere INSIDE of me and not some external source?
NO
Q- Is there any spiritual purpose to the Pineal Gland?
LOL I don’t know Hopi
@ Knight of the Long Knives
Re I cant’t believe after 2000 years humans are still waiting on the Messiah and this “rapture”. MANY FOLK ALL OVER THE WORLS ARE
Re I …….. have seen nothing to convince me that this world will come to an end at the hands of any god.
Man it seems you have not grasped the argument in 2 Peter 3 Knighty!
Christopher Halsall // May 22, 2009 at 8:07 PM
@MME… Thank for your above.
I’m very comfortable laughing.
Especially at myself…. 8-)
Zoe // May 22, 2009 at 8:08 PM
@ JJ, “You’re saying the chip is SIN?”
No, anymore than a Gun is Sin; it is what it represents, IF, in fact the ‘chip’ is used ultimately as the Mark of the Beast, then, IT represents the very symbol of SIN, that is obvious, isn’t it!
I know exactly where you are coming from, JJ, I can smell a ‘rat’ plainly in some of your comments, an obvious ‘Sabbatarian’ no doubt!
Can’t waite to hear your hermeneutics on ‘the truth’ Tuesday, Can’t waite!! Bring it on!!!
Georgie Porgie // May 22, 2009 at 8:16 PM
I figured as much Zoe. I hope you can exegete Galatians, cause we will have some real LAW goo being spouted. You always got to look for the googly with these folk.
Zoe // May 22, 2009 at 8:32 PM
Yes, GP, exegesis on Galatians, and much more, much more!!
Bush Tea // May 22, 2009 at 9:51 PM
@GP
Your bible knowledge is indeed impressive…. a reflection no doubt of your alma mater, and the Bushman is appropriately impressed.
One of my pet theories (and you know that there are many…) is that the bible was never intended to explain God’s will to mankind. The line of argument being that, in exactly the same way in which Jesus spoke in parables in order to avoid providing answers to the public, the bible is deliberately confused and misleading for the very same reason.
Obviously, if the intent was to explain God’s purpose and be a manual for mankind, the bible could have been laid out in a manner to do that quite easily.
Does Isaiah 28 not clearly indicate that God’s intent is to provide knowledge to those who ‘are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast?’ (children ) who come with an open mind and unbiased attitude?
Verses 10 and 11 seem clearly to suggest a deliberate effort to mix up and confuse others with the word that is assembled ‘with foreign lips and strange tongues’…
This concept is probably better understood where Jesus spoke in parables for the expressed purpose of avoiding explaining spiritual concepts to those listening to him. To me the reason is obvious – so that this knowledge is not especially available exclusive to the likes of those originating from Crumpton Street, or those otherwise able to follow those complex formulas routinely used by MME, CH and Not Saved (LOL).
In light of this, how confident are you in the degree to which you place such emphasis on bible study and bible scholarship?
Are you not especially concerned that practically all of your precepts are prescribed by your particular faith? – Which you then use the bible to support…while others use it to support the opposite.
Would you not be much more comfortable with your faith had you been able to develop your knowledge (like a child) independently of prescribed dogma?
This particular Bush Tea theory also postulates that BBE has written their great plan right in front of our eyes in the design, form and structure of nature all around us.
In particular, is the analogy of procreation, with the church as the woman, believers as the potential children being conceived and nurtured, and even the labour and pains of the woman as childbirth nears tell us much more about God’s higher level plans than does the ‘strange tongues and foreign lips’ of the bible.
Just as I always worry when Christians quote Jesus’ parables in order to make spiritual points, your’s and Zoe’s total reliance on the words of the bible as your final point of truth worries me also. Surely we should be able to justify our faith on a much broader foundation than just the bible. Surely nature, science, and life around us all reflect the glory and truth of God.
Even the evil and chaos that Rohan likes to highlight must fit perfectly into the glorious plan- otherwise we have every reason to be concerned about our understanding of the gospel.
….would you suggest that I ditch this theory too? ROTFL
Not Saved // May 22, 2009 at 11:10 PM
I see Chris was rescued.
Georgie Porgie // May 22, 2009 at 11:41 PM
Bush Tea
Thanks for your kind remarks
I know that you believe that the bible was never intended to explain God’s will to mankind because if the intent was to explain God’s purpose and be a manual for mankind, the bible could have been laid out in a manner to do that quite easily.
I am sure that you could bring many valid reasons to support your view that the bible is deliberately confused and misleading, and that you can support your argument by the parables of Jesus as a good example.
I agree with you in some areas but I disagree with you also to some degree also, because the Bible claims in Romans 12:1 that God wishes believers to be transformed to his will. I believe that to understand the Bible you must be a believer, and a believer in the Bible and have the Holy Spirit residing in you since I John 2:20 & 27 calls him the resident tutor. There are very books whose author is readily available to explain its content. So it is possible to know God’s will for one’s life. Though I cant say honestly that it is an easy thing. Maybe I am not holy or godly enough. This is not something that I am very confident about.
With respect to understanding the word, that is a different story, but it requires STUDY to make your self approved according to 2 Tim 2:15. Once you have the Spirit you are a long way there if you study. There is a biblical principle that I invoke in teaching and studying anything. It is found in Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.
I was fortunate to have good teachers in Sunday school and church from age 16-22 where I really got a good grounding by men who taught me things like Coopers law, and not to take the text out of context, and about various methods of Bible study etc. as a student and wrote for books by R B Thieme and out lines by J Vernon McGee and read simple study booklets by Homer Duncan and Dr De Haan. Then I bought cheap commentaries etc Then I practiced these methods and tried to master a Bible book, starting with the shortest books like Jude and 2 & 3 John and 2 Peter and Obadiah etc. Or I would try to master a topic, then another topic. I found that the more I did this that it was like filling in a jig saw puzzle- WHICH IS WHAT THE BIBLE IS REALLY. It was designed to be understood by those who work at trying to understand it. Many of us dont because we were told it is difficult much like how some of us hated Maths or Latin or what ever at school.
I have read commentaries on Hebrews by men that summarize the difficult Pauline arguments like if they were drinking Campbells soup. I have read commentaries on by men that can outline a passage like them women in Oistins does scale and bone flying fish, and I just sit in awe and try to emulate them man LOL
Jesus spoke in parables because they were things the religious leaders would not understand anyway, and things he didn’t want them to understand. Yet he turned around and explained it to his disciples.
But I promise you that if you trace it, you will see that God has always told his people what he planned to do . Come with me
ADAM Genesis 3:15 et secq After he messed up God told him how the Savior would come and fix things.
ABEL cf Hebrews 11 & Jude and I John 3: 12 etc brought the right sacrifice according to the principle that without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin. (Hid brother knew too, because he was God’s man too but he kept messing up even after a second chance.
ENOCH Genesis 5:24 Hebrews 11 & Jude 14. Jude tells us that this man prophesied about the second coming. Can you imagine that? He was the first man to go to heaven without dieing.
NOAH was told to prepare for the flood
ABRAHAM God would not destroy Sodom without telling this man. From Galatians 3 we know he told him about salvation’s plan. Note his great statement in Gen 22:8 God will provide HIMSELF a sacrifice. Get the word order correct and you will see the depth of the theology here. Not only would God provide the sacrifice HE would be THE SACRIFICE as taught also in 2 Cor 5:21! He was MADE SIN for us, who knew no sin.
JACOB predicted the life course of his sons in Gen 48 because God told him
JOSEPH could interpret dreams and advise Pharoah because God told him what he would do
MOSES SAMUEL DANIEL ELIJAH maybe Bush Tea, who knows etc
Bush Tea! I done wid you man. Before I could start wid you pun Isaiah 28 as above you quoting the chapter! Who teaching this class? Me or you? LOL I love it Sir!
Verses 10 -12 means that yuh does add on a little learning a bit at a time. Ya does do it in steps piece by piece. LoL
I agree with your interpretation that God’s intent is to provide knowledge to those who ‘are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast?’ (children ) who come with an open mind and unbiased attitude? This accords well with 2 Peter 2:2, 1 Cor3:2 and Hebrews 5 :12b-13. You cant eat the meat of the word until you grasp the milk.
Hence precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. LOL
This concept is probably better understood where Jesus spoke in parables for the expressed purpose of avoiding explaining spiritual concepts to those listening to him. To me the reason is obvious – so that this knowledge is not especially available exclusive to the likes of those originating from Crumpton Street, or those otherwise able to follow those complex formulas routinely used by MME, CH and Not Saved (LOL). BUT TO THOSE WITH A DESIRE TO REALLY KNOW WHAT HE WANTED THEM TO KNOW. HE WANTED GOOD SOIL IN THESE FOLK WHO WOULD DO WHAT HE TAUGHT UNLIKE THE SCOFFING PHARISEES AND JEWISH LEADERS
In light of this, how confident are you in the degree to which you place such emphasis on bible study and bible scholarship? VERY CONFIDENT.
It is pure pleasure for me when I meet with some good men standing up and talking about the word for hours. Men teaching you and learning from you at the same time.. Man I burn out a few electric kettles that way already man .
Are you not especially concerned that practically all of your precepts are prescribed by your particular faith? – Which you then use the bible to support…while others use it to support the opposite.
Generally men from my denomination will be sound in my view. Many evangelicals tend to believe much of the same things. Some will differ on a few things. So you argue with them back and forth and this can be fun, depending on the men.
BUT generally I FIND THAT MEN WHO REALLY STUDY THE WORD FOR THEM SELVES, AND CAN READ A BOOK OR LISTEN TO A SERMON AND SIFT OUT ERROR FROM TRUTH independent of where they worship, will give you a good time in discussion when you meet. LOL
Would you not be much more comfortable with your faith had you been able to develop your knowledge (like a child) independently of prescribed dogma? EVERY DENOMINATION HAS DOGMA. THE THING IS TO DISTINGUISH DOCTRINE FROM DOGMA. Doctrine is Biblical! Dogma is man made. That’s where the trouble comes from.
Re This particular Bush Tea theory also postulates that BBE has written their great plan right in front of our eyes in the design, form and structure of nature all around us.
In particular, is the analogy of procreation, with the church as the woman, believers as the potential children being conceived and nurtured, and even the labour and pains of the woman as childbirth nears tell us much more about God’s higher level plans than does the ‘strange tongues and foreign lips’ of the bible. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WID DIS
Just as I always worry when Christians quote Jesus’ parables in order to make spiritual points YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL HOW YOU QUOTE PARABLES like quoting any other scripture . Remember a parable is an illustration. We must be careful in spiritualizing them.
, your’s and Zoe’s total reliance on the words of the bible as your final point of truth worries me also. Surely we should be able to justify our faith on a much broader foundation than just the bible. WHY THE EARLY CHRISTIANS FOLLOWED THE NT We read in Acts 2:42 They continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine etc
Surely nature, science, and life around us all reflect the glory and truth of God. THIS IS TRUE AND THE BIBLE TEACHES THIS
What does ROTFL mean?
Zoe // May 23, 2009 at 12:22 AM
BT, All of the theological training that GP and myself have did not ‘Save’ us, from the penalty of ‘Sin’ Only, The Lord Jesus Christ, His death, and glorious Resurrection on the third day, DID!
We both came to Christ relatively young, by His Grace, through Faith; and our lives, like multitudes over the centuries have being literally ‘transformed’ from within, as mankind needs a ’spiritual’ heart transplant, and only Jesus can do this.
While we write much theological exposition, that’s for the purpose of correctly ‘dividing’ His Word, BUT, you’ll never really understand much of it, until, you come as we first did, and experience the greatest miracle anyone can ever receive, the ‘Miracle’ of the New Birth, being Born Again, Justified, declared by His Grace and Mercy, NOT GUILTY any more, no words can aptly describe the liberty, joy, peace, and the new purpose for living, until you make that decision, by child like faith.
There are numerous testimonies of every kind of person, from hard line Atheists, Agnostics, Scientists, you name it, that finally gave up trying to figure out, what only Almighty God knows, who have found true, genuine, real meaning for living in The Lord Jesus Christ.
The paradox of coming to Jesus, is, that surrender brings real, true Victory!!!
Bush Tea // May 23, 2009 at 7:54 AM
@GP /Zoe
It is indeed a blessing to be able to discourse so openly and publicly with you two in this forum.
I have to tell you however, that I feel as though I am between two extremes, with you two way out on the right and Rohan way out on the left (meanwhile, MME sitting there with a beer in hand ROTFL) (rolling on the floor laughing GP)
GP, you tend to agree with my points and then somehow come to a different conclusion. Let us deal with one point at a time:
Are you seriously trying to sell bloggers that understanding the bible is contingent on dedicated study and having access to good books/ teachers?
Come on GP. I can buy a complex electronic system from japan and in 20 minutes with the manual written by Kim Yang Ho, I can know everything there is to know about that system.
Are you telling me that God who created the universe needs good teachers to explain his manual?
It is FAR more plausible that the INTENT is that it should NOT be seen as a manual.
Even if you were correct, this would create a system where mostly Harrisonians would end up being saved…. and we all know what chaos THAT would create.LOL
Consider this:
The reality of the modern world is built on exactly what you propose – namely, that human beings who happen to be intellectually gifted tends to rise to the top. (because they understand what they read, comprehend complex formulas etc).
WHERE HAS THAT GOT US?
God’s approach is NOT based on intellectual aptitude and THUS the design is such that the ability to reason, and study IS OF NO ACCOUNT in comprehending his great plan, or in achieving spiritual success.
BBE’s science is way ahead of our flawed precepts GP.
@Zoe
Stop beating your own chest please.
What saved what?!!
Do you understand Paul’s admonishment to the Philippians in 2:12 to ‘work out you own salvation in fear and trembling’ (ie with ongoing seriousness)….. so that I may boast ON THE DAY OF CHRIST that I did not labour in vain….2:16
No one is ’saved’ until that day comes when you are born of the spirit.
Same answer Jesus gave to Nicodemus’s DIRECT question.
…remember REAL blindness is in those who WILL not see…(as opposed to those who cannot see..)
Zoe // May 23, 2009 at 11:00 AM
BT, A little knowledge can be dangerous and very misleading!
You say, “What saved what?” “No one is ’saved’ until that day comes when you are born of the Spirit.”
Q. What does the Word of God, the Bible say concerning the ‘Salvation’ of the saints? Can we know for sure, that we are Saved?
Ans: Absolutely yes!
Assurance of Salvation:
Assurance of a thing, can be defined as ‘freedom from doubt, firmeness of mind, confidence, to make sure or certain.’ It has also been defined as ‘a pledge or guarantee; the state of being sure or certain, security.’ Theologically, we may say ‘Assurance of Salvation is the inner knowledge that God has forgiven us IN Christ and accepted us in His beloved Son’ (Eph. 1:6).
Amplification:
The scriptures teach that the ‘believer’ should have assurance of salvation and acceptance before God. This is made abundantly clear from I Thessalonians 1:5; where Paul asserts “I KNOW in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have commited unto Him against that day” (II tim 1:12). Our confidence is in Him, Jesus Christ, who gives us this assurance of Salvation.
John in his epistle, used the word “KNOW” over 40 times and assured the believer that he may ‘KNOW’ of his salvation and acceptance in God through Christ. Therefore, the justified, believer does NOT presume when he has confidence in the ‘promises’ of God through Jesus Christ ( I John 2:3, 20, 29; 3:14, 19-21, 24; 4:6, 16-17; 5: 18).
Three aspects of Assurance.
1) The believer is to have full assurance of faith for Salvation (Heb. 10:22).
2) The believer is to have full assurance of understanding (Col. 2:2).
3) The believer is to have full assurance of hope unto the end (Heb. 6:11).
The justified, Saved believer experiences this assurance for ever because of peace and righteousness in the Lord Jesus Christ (Isa. 32: 17) whom God raised from the dead ( Acts 17:31).
Means of Assurance:
1) The testimony of the ‘Word of God.’ This is the external evidence and testimony. ‘It is written’ ( I John 5: 1-2; 3:3, 13, 14, 20, 21, 29: 5: 15-20; John 3:36; 5:24).
2) The testimony of the Holy Spirit. This is the internal evidence. He that believes has the witness in himself ( I John 5: 9-12; 3:19; John 16:8; Romans 8:16; Gal. 4:6; II Cor. 1:2). The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are ‘born again’ and are children of the living God.
3) The testimony of a clear conscience. The life a person lives should be in harmony with the Word of God. This is the outward evidence of the inner Christ-life. This also assures the heart before the Lord (I John 3:14; II Cor 13:5).
Yes, Salvation is essentially over three stages in the life of the justified believer.
1) Instant justification, at the point of sincere Repentence and Faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord. Thus Saved.
2) Sanctification, being set apart over our earthly sojourn on earth, being more and more conformed to the image our our Saviour Jesus Christ. Continuation of being Saved.
3) Our ultimate Glorification, when we die and enter the presence of Our Lord.
Hence, finally and completely Saved.
Dangers of Backsliding:
Yes, there are many warnings given to the believer against backsliding or drawing back from following the Lord. They are inapplicable to the spiritually unregenerate, or to the unforgiven sinner. All of these warnings become meaningless to the believer if there is absolutely no possibilty of falling from the state of grace. Some of the major warnings against backsliding are found in the Old and New Testament.
So, it is against the overall aspect of Salvation, which is a ‘free’ gift paid for in ‘FULL’ by Jesus’ atoning Death and Resurrection, (Eph. 2: 8-9), as it CANNOT be earned or worked for, that Paul earnestly exhorts the Philippian Christians to:
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always ‘obeyed’ not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work ‘out’ ( not work for!) your own salvation with fear and trembling; for IT IS God who works IN YOU both to will and to DO for His good pleasure.” (Phil. 2: 12, 13) emphasis added.
The point that is stressed here, IS NOT working for ones salvation, but, the view of obedience to Christ and His Lordship. Paul is not teaching that one’s salvation is dependent on one’s continued works, BUT, that salvation must express itself in progressive Christian living and upright character, not only individually, but through obedient participation in God’s coporate call to a local church.
One of the most absolute assurances given to the Justified believer is found in I John 5: 11-13:
“And this IS the testimony; that God HAS GIVEN us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son HAS LIFE, he who does NOT have the Son of God does NOT have life.”
“These things I have written to you who believe in the Name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life (Are Saved!) and that you may continue to believe in the Name of the Son of God.”
Hopi // May 23, 2009 at 11:08 AM
@Georgie Porgie……When I asked you about the Lord helping…..’ I did NOT quote any chp:verse from the Bible, so I don’t know why you went to the Bible. Anyhow, hasn’t ‘God’ ever spoken DIRECTLY to you or do you always have to turn to the bible to hear from him? (Talk about that PG later)
Bush Tea // May 23, 2009 at 11:32 AM
Man Zoe, I do not know how I can help you!!!
I have repeatedly pointed out to you the obvious danger of solving a problem by starting from a perceived solution (i.e. you are ’saved’ and hence somehow the bible can be used to prove this)
Why can we not just identify the challenge and explore ALL the possible answers before trying to zero in on the most plausible explanation – whatever common sense and reason leads that to be?
…seriously! How on earth can having “full assurance of the hope of salvation” be interpreted as being saved?
…even if you KNEW that your earthly father legally appointed you as heir and you were ASSURED of inheriting his millions when he died – That would not mean that you are now RICH…. just that you are assured of riches ON the day he dies (actually after the lawyers get through with you LOL)….. but that is just a small point.
Georgie Porgie // May 23, 2009 at 11:41 AM
@ BT
RE GP, you tend to agree with my points and then somehow come to a different conclusion.
This is because I think that there are some things that you dont understand fully
Q Are you seriously trying to sell bloggers that understanding the bible is contingent on dedicated study and having access to good books/ teachers?
YES & NO
Understanding the bible is contingent PRIMARILY on having the Holy Spirit on board. He is the ultimate author of the Bible, and the resident tutor if you do, as taught in 1 John 2:20 & 27! The Holy Spirit as resident tutor will help your spiritual understanding immensely. cf I Cor 2:14 is an important verse in this context. You cant understand much if anything without Him.
Second you have to STUDY, as ordered in 2 Tim 2:15. I don’t know or understand half as much as some of the great authors I have read because I have not studied half as much as they studied. I often marvel at these men’s comprehension.
Re I can buy a complex electronic system from japan and in 20 minutes with the manual written by Kim Yang Ho, I can know everything there is to know about that system. I AGREE WITH THAT, BUT THE BIBLE IS JUST NOT MERELY A MANUAL FROM GOD.
It is aliving and dynamic and up todate book . It is a spiritual book and so it needs the Spirit to help interpret it.
Q Are you telling me that God who created the universe needs good teachers to explain his manual? YES & NO
NO. Anyone who has the Spirit of God which is given at salvation according to texts like 1 John 4:13; Ephesians 1:13; 4;30; 2 Cor 1:22 & 5:5; 1 Cor 1:12 can understand the Bible, if they study it, just like I had to study medicine.
So all the Harrisonian types who are not saved and have not the Spirit CAN NOT understand the Bible or Spiritual things. I want you to understand that my God given intellect though enhancing my ability to understand is certainly NOT the primary facet in my understanding of the Word.
YES Good teachers facilitates the process. Sometimes all you need is to read a chapter outline by a good teacher and the light shines through the fog of all your so called big brain intellect! LOL
e.g in the Pauline epistles where the going often gets rough you need some one just to tell you what is the background to the metaphor the man using at any point in time.
Like say in Galatians 4:4 when he says when the fullness of time was come…. “pleroma en chronos”, you need to understand that he gone agriculture.
Bushman it does give me grief to try to explain the sweetness of the concept of the fullness to these Americans in the city who have not grown up as we did with “an eye for the pleroma”, man.
Here me man. “ Back where I come from a breadfruit is green when it is green, and green when its ripe, but we know when its FULL and READY to pick. Every little boy knows when a fruit like a mango is FULL and READY to pick even before it turns yellow. That is pleroma en chronos for little boys thiefing fruit! That’s what Paul means by the “fullness of time” was come!
All Paul saying is that Christ came when the time was ripe!
The time was ripe because of
1- the forced PAX ROMA
2- the universal use of the koine greek at the time (in which the NT was written) &
3- the extent of Roman roads throughout the known world which facilitated rapid spread of the gospel when the early Christian church was persecuted.
Have you ever heard the songs WILL YOUR ANCHOR HOLD IN THE STORMS OF LIFE or THOUGH THE ANGRY SURGES ROLL. These songs are based on the text of Hebrews 6:19-20. Here Paul used for his illustration a port scene common in his day.
In those days when harbor bottoms were uneven and thus hazardous, ships were tied up outside the port. The main ANCHOR, however, was then put in a boat called the FORERUNNER and taken into the port and secured firmly to the ROCK(s) in port by way of a strong cable (HOPE) until the tide rose. Paul is saying from the context that we who have fled for refuge (in Christ) to lay hold upon the hope (Christ) set before us.
Then he continues his argument of verse 18 and before, by stating his beautiful port scene illustration in verses 19-20 which reads ……..Which HOPE we have as an ANCHOR of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the FOREFUNNER is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
THE ANCHOR THE FORERUNNER the strong cable (HOPE) & the ROCK all refer to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now tell me Bush man aint that real sweet! That really gives you a pleroma man ! Its like seeing a man ease a fast bowler through the covers!
So you see once you have the Spirit you can understand MOST texts. The more passages you study you can find relations for yourself as my little list about having the Spirit. But if you find good books or have good teachers you can do it faster and better. And all a good teacher or book might do is OPEN A DOOR for you to meditate on that passage and get fresh nuggets of truth as you relate it to other passages all CORECTLY DIVIDED IN THEIR RESPECT CONTEXTS! LOL
So you see I DO AGREE with you partially that “God’s approach is NOT based on intellectual aptitude and THUS the design is such that the ability to reason, and study IS OF NO ACCOUNT in comprehending his great plan, or in achieving spiritual success.”
You cannot understand spiritual truths by your intellect at all. Intellect is of no value without the Spirit. I have heard uneducated men preach the gospel message and the Word in general like giants. We are told that Dwight Moody, one of the greatest preachers the world as ever known was uneducated!
RE It is FAR more plausible that the INTENT is that it should NOT be seen as a manual.
It is only a manual for those who accept it as a manual. Such folk seek to find the instruction therein for them. Often we don’t obey what we see or believe or know, because the new man ( the Spirit) is constantly fighting the old natural man within as taught by Paul in Romans 7.
Re Even if you were correct, this would create a system where mostly Harrisonians would end up being saved…. and we all know what chaos THAT would create.LOL
You are NOT SAVED BY INTELLECT OR WORKS . See Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5, Romans4:4-5, WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST hence many if not most of the Harrisonian type of this world are LOST! And hopelessly so.And they canot understand the Word.
There are of course many Harrisonian type of this world and many Harrisonians who are indeed saved, however! So your intellect or wealth or position does not help you to be saved. There is no advantage in any of these.
I like the Scripture in 1 Cor 1 that says not MANY noble. Note it does not say not ANY noble LOL
Re The reality of the modern world is built on exactly what you propose – namely, that human beings who happen to be intellectually gifted tends to rise to the top. (because they understand what they read, comprehend complex formulas etc). WHERE HAS THAT GOT US?
This is only partly so. Many human beings who happen to be intellectually gifted DO NOT rise to the top because they are envied or just don’t belong to this world system (the cosmos diabolicus.) This is so even in Christendom!
Do you realize that many features of the cosmos diabolicus involves a lot of homosexuals, for example!- besides other deviant and aberrant behavior.
Re your response to Zoe viz:-
Do you understand Paul’s admonishment to the Philippians in 2:12 to ‘work out you own salvation in fear and trembling’ (ie with ongoing seriousness)….. so that I may boast ON THE DAY OF CHRIST that I did not labour in vain….2:16 No one is ’saved’ until that day comes when you are born of the spirit.
You need a good detention BT! And maybe to be put to stand on the bench and a floogging too man! BT the text in Philippians 2:12 says TO WORK OUT your salvation, not WORK FOR! As the little girl told her mom after church one day on hearing this text preached “ MOM YOU CANT WORK IT OUT IF IT HAS NOT BEEN ALREADY WORKED IN!”
See Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5, Romans4:4-5 etc and 2 Timothy 1:9 which reads who (i.e God) hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace…………..
Ephesians 2:10 comes after Ephesians 2:8-9 for a very good reason LOL
Believers who accept Christ by faith in Christ are saved! We can KNOW that we are saved ! See I John 3:2 Beloved now are we the TEKNON (children of God i.e in the family and placed as sons according to the doctrine of the adoption of sons as taught exclusively by Paul) …..
Read also I John 5: 9-13
5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Read also John 3:18 and 36 and note that the tense of the verb “have” is the present tense. It means to have and continue to have, NOT WILL HAVE.
I think I tried to explain to you recently the concept of POSITIONAL SANCTIFICATION or justification (really to understand all this fully you need to study what we call the Doctrine of salvation, which is a multifaceted concept involving reconciliation adoption etc.) Chaffer, the first President of Dallas Theological Seminary was able to identify 32 different benefits the believer acquires at the moment of receiving Chris.
PRACTICAL SANCTIFICATION here is where the Phil 2:12 comes in
And PERFECT SANCTIFICATION . Paul calls it receiving the END of your salvation. In other words at the day of Christ also called the rapture, we will be completely saved from sin and the world scene etc.
Hope this helps
Technician // May 23, 2009 at 12:30 PM
@ GP….
Where or when did the first sin occur?
Georgie Porgie // May 23, 2009 at 12:49 PM
Bush Tea
Man Bush Tea , I do not know how I can help you! You wont listen to teacher LOL
While I was responding to you it seems that Zoe tear some holes in you .
Re I have repeatedly pointed out to you the obvious danger of solving a problem by starting from a perceived solution (i.e. you are ’saved’ and hence somehow the bible can be used to prove this)
But the facts Dear BT is that the salvation problem has been solved. We either accept it or not. You either accept the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice or not. If you do ought to seek to use the Bible to solve problems of a spiritual nature, and sometimes of a physical or financial nature. Like the Bible declares in Proverbs that you better not back a loan for anyone. I wish I had read that before I did!
Re Why can we not just identify the challenge and explore ALL the possible answers before trying to zero in on the most plausible explanation – whatever common sense and reason leads that to be?
That is not always necessary BT. If you come to me with appendicitis there is no need to explore nuttin man, except the inside of your abdomen to ensure there is no infection around when the appendix is removed.
Man Paul would say to you as he said to the Colossians in chapter 2:6-8
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it[a] with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Re …seriously! How on earth can having “full assurance of the hope of salvation” be interpreted as being saved?
Actually he is right! Put it this way BT. When one is saved he HAS and continues to have “full assurance of the hope of salvation.” That does not mean that you do not obey the injunction of 2 Peter 1: 10 which reads
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Re
…even if you KNEW that your earthly father legally appointed you as heir and you were ASSURED of inheriting his millions when he died – That would not mean that you are now RICH…. just that you are assured of riches ON the day he dies (actually after the lawyers get through with you LOL)….. but that is just a small point.
Wrong again BT! And it is a big point. Paul certainly thought so. LOL
Romans 8: 14 -17 is instructive
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
In verse 17 we are told that we ARE even now (note present tense) joint-heirs with Christ
But verse 19 says in effect that we are waiting to take up this inheritance
19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Yet when you turn to that amazing passage in Ephesians 1: 2-11, speaking of the same inheritance the verbs are all in the past tense. In other words in Ephesians Paul is saying you already have your inheritance POSITIONALLY, and spiritually. It is as though it is already done In Romans 8 he is stressing you will experience the reality of it all at Jesus’ coming. Se also 1 Peter 1:3-5
Why can he say this without being contradictory you ask? Because the testator (i.e the father in your illustration) is already DEAD! And it is through HIS DEATH that our inheritance is secured.
See Hebrews 9: 16-17
16. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Georgie Porgie // May 23, 2009 at 1:00 PM
Technician
Re Where or when did the first sin occur?
The first sin(s) RECORDED in the Bible is eating the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden in Genesis 3.
I say sins because it seems that ur fore fathers disregarded the concept given by John in 1 John 2: 16. i.e
the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Our forefathers breached all three of the major types of sin as classified in this text as clearly reported in Genesis 3 where we read
when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES, and a tree TO BE DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE……….then she took.
In Luke 4 & Mathew 4 we see that Jesus overcame when tempted by the devil in all three of these areas.
Back to your question though, you might want to argue, and reasonably so that the first sin was rebellion by the angel Lucifer aka Satan the devil as revealed to and recorded by Isaiah.
I think it is this lack of chronology that helps to make studying the Bible to some folk like my friend BT! LOL
Georgie Porgie // May 23, 2009 at 1:04 PM
Hopi
Re When I asked you about the Lord helping…..’ I did NOT quote any chp:verse from the Bible, so I don’t know why you went to the Bible.
LOL Habit! Plus its so much fun.
Q. Anyhow, hasn’t ‘God’ ever spoken DIRECTLY to you or do you always have to turn to the bible to hear from him?
I have never heard him speak audibly. But he speaks in the mind and via the Word definitely.
Example;
Say you meditating or reading the Word or listening to good Bible teaching or even watching the News. You can “hear” Him say “ MAN GP YOU GUIILTY OF THAT SAME SIN!”
Technician // May 23, 2009 at 3:04 PM
@ GP….you saw that coming a mile away..LOL.
That was exactly what I was getting at. If heaven was a perfect place, then how could Lucifer have even had those thoughts much less acted on them?
Could it be then, that it was not a perfect place?
If after the rapture, we are all supposed to live in harmony, how do we know that this will not start all over again as happened with God and Lucifer in the beginning?
What confuses me is how can an angel sin and since it it obvious that he did ( creation of the Devil), what guarantees do we have that it will never reoccur.
NB….I was put out of my Sunday school class for this same line of questioning.
Next question….if God does make a mistake…how would we know? what way would we have of realizing ?….What if?
Technician // May 23, 2009 at 3:08 PM
….’Example;
Say you meditating or reading the Word or listening to good Bible teaching or even watching the News. You can “hear” Him say “ MAN GP YOU GUIILTY OF THAT SAME SIN!”
@ GP…
I thought that was your conscience….you know, the voice in your head. That voice has told me some things …man…..I dont think God would say to me…lol.
Georgie Porgie // May 23, 2009 at 3:17 PM
In today’s NATION there is an article entitled Obeah Buisness Booming
http://www.nationnews.com/news/local/FOCUS-obeah-in-economic-times-copy-for-web
The article cites Canon Llewellyn Armstrong, an Episcopal or Anglican priest in Brooklyn who was trained at Codrington ( and not in the Saturday program I presume) as saying “”Don’t forget. Saul, before he became Apostle Paul, consulted the witch of Endor about his future,” “
Hopefully, by now members of the BU family, whether in the Saturday class at Codrington frowned on by one Errington Massiah, would not commit such an error. Even my good friend, Rohan, now appreciates that a bible text must never be taken out of context. If the venerable Canon had obeyed this basic of all precepts he would not have talked some absolute rubbish. Like the Bajans who commented on his moronic mouthings ( and I daresay none of them probably went to Codrington either full time or to the Saturday class) we know that the Bible mention TWO Sauls, who lived CENTURIES apart! We know two that King Saul was punished for his witchcraft. God did not sanction it all.
Here are some of the relevant and correct responses of fellow Bajans.
1- You made a grave mistake by associating the Apostle Paul with the witch of Endor. Saul of Tarsus, AKA Paul the Apostle is not the same person as Saul the son of Kish. READ the scripture carefully before you speak.
I am sure BU family members would concur with that last statement.
2- Twisting Scripture
Dear Canon Armstrong Don’t you know that there are two different Sauls in the bible. You are mixing up King Saul from the Old Testament and Saul of Tarsus from the New Testament. I cannot believe that biblical illiteracy has reached even the halls of the Anglican Church. As a priest, you should emphasize that the bible comes out very strongly against practising witchcraft and consulting mediums. I hope you are not saying that just because it is not new that it is okay
3- SHAME ON YOU CANON LLEWELLYN ARMSTRONG! YOU DON’T KNOW THE WORD OF GOD? WHAT KIND OF MESSAGES DO YOU PREACH? YOU NEED TO CHECK YOUR SCRIPTURES BEFORE YOU QUOTE IT. IT IS NOT ONLY OUT OF CONTEXT BUT IT IS ALSO WRONG.
YOU NEED TO READ 1SAMUEL 28 AND IN THE 7TH VERSE YOU WILL READ: THEN SAUL SAID TO HIS SERVANTS,”FIND ME A WOMAN WHO IS A MEDIUM THAT I MAY GO TO HER AND INQUIRE OF HER.” AND HIS SERVANT SAID TO HIM, “INFACT, THERE IS A WOMAN WHO IS A MEDIUM AT EN DOR.” WHAT YOU SHOULD ALSO KNOW CANON ARMSTRONG IS THAT THE SAID SAUL, WHEN HE WAS STILL ANOINTED BY GOD, HAD PREVIOUSLY GIVEN ORDERS TO DESTROY ALL “OBEAH WOMEN” BECAUSE WITCHCRAFT WAS AND STILL IS AN ABOMINATION TO GOD. SO WHAT COUNSEL ARE YOU REALLY GIVING AS A PRIEST A SERVANT OF GOD? WHAT GOSPEL DO YOU PREACH AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF? YOU CANNOT MIX, YOU EITHER BELIEF IN GOD 100% OR YOU BELIEF IN THE DEVIL%, THERE IS NO INBETWEEN. CANON LLEWELLYN ARMSTRONG
YOU WILL ASLO NOTE THAT WHEN SAUL CONSULTED THIS OBEAH WOMAN, NOT ONLY DID ISRAEL LOST THE WAR THAT THEY WERE BATTLING BUT HE AND HIS SONS DIED AND THE ENTIRE KINGDOM WAS GIVEN OVER TO DAVID. REMEMBER BOTH THE BELIEVER OF OBEAH WILL BE DESTROYED IN HELL IF THEY DO NOT REPENT AND ALSO THE OBEAH WOMAN/MAN WILL BURN IN HELL. SO IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO POINT ALL TO CHRIST AND NOT TO POINT THEM TO “WITCHCRAFT” YOU WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE SOUL. READ YOUR BIBLE CANON. AND BY THE WAY,
THE APOSTLE PAUL NEVER CONSULTED ANY WITCH AT EN DOR, HE WAS NEW TESTAMENT. YOU GOT IT TWISTED!
4- . I find it hard to believe that someone who purports to be a priest could mix up King Saul in the Bible with, Saul who became the Apostle Paul through his Damascus road experience. The second quote above is incorrect as the reference refers to King Saul, of the Old Testament who approached the witch of Endor and not the the Apostle Paul of the New Testament.
5- Please note! Saul who consulted with the satanic witch of Endor was The Old Testament King of ISRAEL. However Saul who was The Apostle Paul never consulted a witch. I know you might say that is a genuine mistake. YET NOTE THIS. Satan is real and many worship him. He is a genius at deception, and he would love for the truth about The Apostle Paul to be made a lie. Check your writing before you publish please
It seems to me Errington Massiah, and those of his ilk that it dos not matter if you go to Codrington full time, or are in the Saturday class, or don’t go at all, if a Canon could SO WRONGLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.
Watch out friends ! Here he comes now. LOL
Georgie Porgie // May 23, 2009 at 4:02 PM
Technician
I can see why they put you out of the Sunday school class man! What a disruptive boy! LOL
You see your questions were probably to hard for the teacher to answer. So the only way to hush you was to get rid of you, despite the fact that your questions were/are worth answering, and that you were only seeking answers for the questions that bothered you, and about which you had spent some time in thought.
Some times teachers get so bogged down in teaching their lesson that they have prepared ( and this occurs even in University) failing to see that there might be more things to learn outside of the lesson.
I don’t think the issue is whether heaven is a perfect place. After all the Garden of Eden was also a perfect environment too. We are always thinking John Brown turned out to be a murderer because he had a poor upbringing in all aspects, yet Harry Jakes does the same things having been raised in a more perfect environment.
Some folk are just rebels and evil. Some will kill you out of envy! And for the little that they think you have—but yet something that they don’t have! It might be love, our a good wife who loves you even though you are (probably) only a poor technician. But in your relative poverty, you have something that is unique and precious- whatever it is you are envied for.
The devil; was no doubt created as perfect as the rest of the creation, but like you and I, he had the CHOICE to express his FREE WILL! And he did. We have a choice keep the laws of Bim, or to break them. If we break them, we suffer the consequences.
I don’t therefore agree with you that heaven was NOT a perfect place. Certainly it will be perfect as described in Revelation 21-22.
Q If after the rapture, we are all supposed to live in harmony, how do we know that this will not start all over again as happened with God and Lucifer in the beginning?
We know, or believe that things will be different because there will be no sin there. In the millennium Jesus will rule with an iron hand on earth. At the end of the millennium, Satan will be released and after his final rebellion is crushed the ungodly of all ages will be judged at the great white throne judgement and sentenced to the lake of fire! That should make things sort of perfect I believe. It seems the sin nature will be eradicated!
Q What confuses me is how can an angel sin and since it it obvious that he did ( creation of the Devil), what guarantees do we have that it will never reoccur.
An angel could sin because an angel is just a messenger man. We often think of angels as being perfect in some escteric way. Angels were created a little higher than man according to Hebrews, but as created beings angels had the ability to chose for God or against Him, and they did according to their volition. The fallen angels chose to follow Satan and some are roving around and some are said to be reserveed in chains fior judgment in Jude 6.
In interpreting the Bible we often have to rid ourselves of cultural beliefs and myths, and traditions that have been entwined in Christendom after Constantine corrupted the church after AD 313!
Q if God does make a mistake…how would we know? what way would we have of realizing ?….What if?
LOL I would have put you out for harassment too, depending of my level of tolerance or understanding of your ability to think and question things. LOL
Techie ma boy those are hard questions that I can not answer or have never honestly contemplated. LOL
Re Next question….
…. I thought that was your conscience….you know, the voice in your head. That voice has told me some things …man…..I dont think God would say to me…lol.
I agree that your conscience the voice in your head speaks to you…. But you realize that when you get naughty thoughts it aint God. LOL But I think you know what I mean. It is not always the conscience that convicts or convinces you of sin, or that drives you to do a good deed or what ever. I cant really explain this concept well. And I don’t walk around saying to folk the Spirit told me this and that. But I know he does speaks to me and others.
I hope this helps. And you must understand that you were even at a tender age really far ahead of your teacher, who thought you to be disruptive, because your questions took him out of the box, and lost him! And stopped him from getting through his lesson. He/she did not understand that you understood the lesson already, and wanted more than he/she could give, or was prepared to give. A lot of so called bad behavior by students in primary and secondary school is due to BOREDOM! LOL
I have found that there are different types of students that get A’s. Some are regurgitators. Some are analysers. Some can apply information to practical solutions. Some are a mixture of the above. If you get my drift. I’m sure you do
Technician // May 23, 2009 at 5:50 PM
@ GP….
Let me digest this and get back to you…have to thoroughly analise this and see how I can apply it :-)
Zoe // May 23, 2009 at 7:55 PM
Technician, asked GP, “If God does make a mistake… how would we know? What way would we have of realizing? What if?
While I appreciate your pondering such questions, I believe such a possibilty, or probability is beyond Almighty God, by virtue of His absolute attributes; because God is distinct from and transdendent to all His creatures, not only metaphysically and otherwise, but, also morally. God is morally spotless in character and actions, upright, pure, and untainted with evil desires, motives, thought, word, or acts. God is absolutely Holy, and as such is the source and standard of what is right.
God is free from all evil, loves all truth and goodness. He values purity and detest impurity and inauthenticity. He cannot approve of any evil, has no pleasure in evil (Psa. 5:4), and cannot tolerate evil (Hab 1:13). God abhors evil and cannot encourage sin in any way (James 1:13-14).
God is absolutely immutable, changeless, therefore, He cannot make a mistake, othewise He would not be God!
Regarding the possibilty of ’sin’ occuring again in heaven, His revelation to us on Heaven, it is simply not possible, as NO sin can ever enter His Presence, this is why those who are ultimately Glorified by Jesus’ Death and resurrection, will be spotless, no more death, or pain, or suffering, or sickness, or envy, no more murder, etc, etc, that we know in our fallen, sin stained condition here on earth.
It is obvious from implication, that after Satan and a number of angels rebelled against God, and were cast down to this realm, that God has prevented in His soveriegnty, such a possibilty from ever happening again.
Technician // May 23, 2009 at 8:05 PM
…….It is obvious from implication, that after Satan and a number of angels rebelled against God, and were cast down to this realm, that God has prevented in His sovereignty, such a possibility from ever happening again.
And my question to this is simply……HOW???
Anonymous // May 24, 2009 at 3:23 AM
All very interesting. Also, check out Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_(Bible)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AntiChrist
Seems that whenever convenient to certain historical parties, attempts at identifying a Beast or AntiChrist have been made, usually motivated by an agenda of hate. How typical of practitioners of organized religeon who, as a group, have been responsible for so many wars and attrocities through the centuries – all in the name of God. As someone once said on this very blog, organized religeon conceals God – it does not reveal Him. That thought has stuck with me ever since. Maybe organized religeon, purporting to be from God, is, in fact, the Beast and the AntiChrist. Certainly worth considering.
As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls
Also, some open-minded scholars may like to consider the Gospel of Judas. It is very interesting and provides yet another “angle” on debates of this kind. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas
Hopi // May 24, 2009 at 12:47 PM
@GP……… Its child abuse to feed and ‘nurture’ on, and expose a child at the age of 16 to, the same principles that were responsible for the enslaving and destruction of his foreparents without the option of exposing him to other concrete and factual philosophies. But had your parents known better, they would have done better.
‘According to Jude 14 and other Scriptures, I expect to be close by in the throng watching him doing it single handedly.
He is expected to come visibly in physical form according to scriptures like Acts 1:11′ Oh GP if I could just save you from the wrath of ignorance that will be visited upon us all both bond and free, christian and non-christian! It is a waste of a human mind to be locked into a religious prison cell.
Ephesians 6:12 explains what is happening on this planet today. Not only are they terra-forming our bodies with their genetically modified foods and vaccines, but they have also stepped up their encroachment upon our minds as well in a very big way with such weapons as EDOM- electronic distillation of memory which produces these ‘psychos’ that goes into schools and take out 10-15 students at a time. They are also using their HAARP technology which actually disrupts the ionosphere causing communication interference between our DNA and the cosmos. Do you see how our children are so distracted with all these electronic devices thinking that they are ‘cool.’ Walk the street today in any major city and everyone is busy on a cell phone while their world is swirling out of control around them. This is all part of the Grand Design by those wielding the ‘illusion’ of power and control. This beast is the MATRIX.
Hopi // May 24, 2009 at 1:32 PM
@GP……Oh and that Pineal Gland does not only serve a physiological function it also has a spiritual function. See Genesis 32: 22-31. And this has nothing do with those imposters calling themselves israel or jews.
Hotep!
Bush Tea // May 24, 2009 at 1:54 PM
In all seriousness GP, does it not bother you – the number of simple questions that you, a scholar of such high learning, have been unable to answer convincingly about your faith?
Questions like:
1 – How come God could not have created a bible that everyone could understand (like any other book or manual)?
2 – Why did Jesus answer simple questions in a manner which he said, was designed to deceive listeners?
3 – As Technician asked, how come God made a mistake with the Devil and as a result, now have the whole world messed up? .. and what is to prevent that mistake recurring?
4- If you and Zoe are already saved, does that mean that you can now do the dog without any worries? Is that thinking responsible for why Jippy Doyle is where he is today?
…and if you consider your answers to have been convincing then I am even more worried for you…
As far as Zoe’s response to Technician at 7.55 p.m., it is clear that Zoe operates under a unique and distinct style of logic that completely eludes the bushman. The last paragraph is a real classic…. ROTFL
It would be really interesting if you two could desist from the notion that a discussion like this requires that you take a defensive position for every issue. How about we all explore these issues fully together???
Zoe // May 24, 2009 at 2:03 PM
@Technician, “And my question to this is simply…How?”
Very little direct information is given in the Scriptures concerning the origin and fall of Satan and his hosts, as evidently took place in the ages past before the creation of man.
However, what little God has given to us in His Word, tells us, that:
1) He is a created being, therefore dependent upon God for his very existence (Ezek. 28; 13,15).
2) He was called Lucifer, which means ‘day star, son of the morning, or light bearer’. ( Isa. 14:12 with II Cor 11:14).
His Fall.
1) He was lifted up in ‘pride’ over his God-given wisdom, anointing and beauty (Ezek 28: 17; Prov 16:18; 18:12; I tim 3:6).
2) He exalted himself, and came under condemnation (Isa. 14: 13-14; with I Tim 3:6).
3) He manifested self-will against God’s will ( Isa. 14:13-15). Note the five “I will’s” of Lucifer’s ambition here.
a. I will ascend into heaven. Self-will.
b. I will exalt my throne above the stars
of God. Self-exaltation.
c. I will sit upon the mount of the
congregation in the sides of the
north. Self-enthronement.
d. I will escend above the heights of the
clouds. Self-ascension.
e. I will be like the Most High. Self-
deification
4. He fell through pride and self-will, the very essence of sin (Isa 14:12 with Prov 16:18 and Luke 10:18). He wanted to be independent of God. He rebelled against God.
5. He fell as lightning (Luke 10: 18; II Cor 11:14).
6. He was cast down by God in this self-deification (Eze 28: 16-17)
7. He was the original sinner, and iniquity (lawlessness) was found in him ( Eze 28: 15, 16, 18, I John 3:8).
8. He did not abide in the truth. He was self-deceived (John 8:44).
9. He became a liar and muderer (John 8:44).
10. He is the source of ALL SIN and in him “The Mystery of Iniquity” is personified. He is the original Antichrist (II Thess. 2:7; Gen. 3:1-6). He was the first apostate and caused other angels to sin in heaven.
Satan who was Lucifer, obviously led the angelic hosts in heaven, and influenced a number of angels to rebel with him against their creator God.
He and these others rebellious angels were instantly cast out; so that Satan is no longer there.
The scriptures clearly show that there are legions or myriads of angelic beings They speak of multitudes of spirit beings who worship and serve God (Dan 7: 9-10; Matt 26: 53).
In the vast multitude of angelic hosts, Scripture reveals that there are two groups, ‘elect’ and fallen angels
1. Elect Angels ( I Tim 5:21). These are the angels which did not follow Lucifer in his rebellion.
2. Fallen Angels ( II Peter 2:4; Jude 6:9). These are angels which fell by the sin of self-will.
” I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ‘Elect’ angels…” (I Tim 5:21).
The word ‘elect’ with reference to angels is from the Greek, “Eklektos” ‘To choose, select. Chosen, select.”
Almighty God, therefore, after the rebellion of Lucifer and his hosts, ‘Elected’ by His soverienghty myriads of angelic hosts, that are sealed unto Him in Holiness and worship.
Zoe // May 24, 2009 at 2:49 PM
Yes, Religion is man in utter futility and folly, trying to figure out, and find God!
Mankind can know nothing about Almighty God, until He reveals Himself through special Divine revelation, which He has to initiate, and DID in fact do.
“In the beginning God Created the heavens and the earth.” (Gen 1:1).
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. ALL things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.” (John 1: 1-4)
“And the LIGHT shines in the darkness, and the DARKNESS did NOT comprehend it.” (v. 5)
“And the Word became flesh, (Jesus) and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. ” (v. 14).
“God, who at various times and in various way spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the BRIGHNESS of His glory, and the express IMAGE of His person, and upholding ALL things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our SINS, sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high.” (Heb. 1: 1-3).
Any attempt to start any inquiry other than at, and from the ‘Beginning’ of all things, as Divinely revealed, with only leave you, groping’ in DARKNESS!
As, “And the LIGHT shines in the DARKNESS, and the DARKNESS did NOT comprehend it.”
Comprehend, is from the Gk word ‘katalambano’ and carries these concepts.
‘To seize, lay hold of, overcome. Therefore, the DARKNESS does not gain control of it; does not, and cannot perceive, attain, lay hold of with the mind; to apprehend with mental or moral effort. The ‘darkness’ is unreceptive and does NOT undersrand it. The darkness will NEVER be able to eliminate it.
Light and darkness essentially are antagonistic. They simply cannot coexist. Darkness is ‘nothingness’ whereas, LIGHT is something!!!
Jesus Christ IS the LIGHT of the world, he who follows Him, shall not walk in darkness!
Hopi // May 24, 2009 at 3:34 PM
Oh GP……..I’m also glad to hear that the Black children of the SUN are returning to the science of their foreparents. Hyperdimensional science. It will set our minds free from this bondage we’re in now. Remember it was the christians who came and persecuted our Ancestors for using this science and then they told us that it was of the devil, because they were afraid of it. He could not understand it. Then they fettered us with their bogus science which is even ‘wus than that ‘obeah’ because they are constantly changing their so-called scientific findings year after year whereas the science of our Ancestors was and is real. So I’ll say to those Oracles and Channellers to stay in the Spirit.
And as for that Canon L. Armstrong, he has just cemented the fact that, that little allogorical black book has been misinterpreted for centuries and has kept out minds in total lockdown. More reason why it should not be adhered to by our people for liberation, because the deeper into it you go the more mired you become in teachings you don’t comprehend. Almost as bad as ‘Obeah.’ Hahahahaha!
Technician // May 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM
@ Zoe….
…..’1) He is a created being, therefore dependent upon God for his very existence (Ezek. 28; 13,15).
Then by your logic, God can destroy him at any given time.
Why then, put mankind through all this pain and suffering since this beef between them happened before the creation of man??
Do you see how these simple questions I ask lead to major confusion??
God has a warped sense of humor to me.
Zoe // May 24, 2009 at 5:49 PM
@ Techi, Can our little finite minds, begin to comprehend the absolute Infinite, Eternal ways of Almighty God?
God has given to us His Revelation of what He wants us to know and understand, in His Word, the Bible. Beyond that, I don’t bother with what He has not revealed.
I simply take Him at His Word, He has never failed me yet!
“Seek the Lord while He may be found. Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts.”
“For My thoughts are NOT your thoughts. Nor are your way My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.”
That’s good enough for me!
Hopi // May 24, 2009 at 6:24 PM
@Tech……If you want to learn anything about that Bible you are barking up the wrong tree….Zoelos.
‘God has given to us His Revelation of what He wants us to know and understand, in His Word, the Bible. Beyond that, I don’t bother with what He has not revealed.’ Therein lies the problem, because according to Zoe, if it is not in that Bible, it is not revealed i.e. no one other than the authors of, and believers in that Bible knows anything of the Creator. This quote is coming from a very self-imposed- limited mind, who, in a world so vast with the wonders of the Creator, has placed itself in a prison of ignorance.
Georgie Porgie // May 24, 2009 at 7:39 PM
@ Bush Tea
Q In all seriousness GP, does it not bother you – the number of simple questions that you, a scholar of such high learning, have been unable to answer convincingly about your faith?
A- NO. There are a lot of questions that my medical colleagues & I can not answer TOO! But I guess you know that.
Questions like:
1 – How come God could not have created a bible that everyone could understand (like any other book or manual)?
I don’t have to know the answers to every little question that men ask. I know that I understand the Bible fairly well.
I know that I have read and listened to men who understand the Bible fairly well, despite the fact that we cant answer your questions.
Being unable to answer every question about everything is not my aim in life.
I hear that NEITHER the PM of Barbados who is paid handsomely, nor The President of the USA, who is thought to be a very powerful man DON’T HAVE ANSWERS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS! AND THESE MEN ARE WORSHIPPED AND REVERED BY THE MASSES OF PEOPLE.
2 – Why did Jesus answer simple questions in a manner which he said, was designed to deceive listeners?
I don’t think that Jesus answered simple questions in a manner which he said, was designed to deceive listeners. That is your interpretation. It is not the interpretation of respected and reputable Bible scholars. I think I have sufficient intellect with the aid of the Spirit to sift out from what I read what is the truth. I don’t blindly follow any teacher, church dogma, or denominational dogma, honestly.
3 – As Technician asked, how come God made a mistake with the Devil and as a result, now have the whole world messed up? .. and what is to prevent that mistake recurring?
Why don’t you ask God that BT? Or do you know the answer? I have never announced on BU that I have the answer to ALL questions.
I don’t think that God made a mistake. But then I believe the Scriptures that he has done all things well. I don’t understand many things about God and his methods, but that WILL NOT STOP ME FROM BELIEVING HIS WORD AND TRUSTING HIS WORD AND PROCLAIMING FAITH IN HIM.
I will have lost NOTHING at all if God is not who he says he is in his Word.
4- If you and Zoe are already saved, does that mean that you can now do the dog without any worries? Is that thinking responsible for why Jippy Doyle is where he is today?
You clearly do not understand the concept of salvation by grace through faith in the death of Christ. You clearly do not understand the doctrine of salvation and its many facets.
You clearly believe in salvation by works. And I will not be wasting my time to try to convince you otherwise. Unlike Zoe, I will not be arguing with anyone on this forum about the Bible. I will share what I have learned, where, and how I acquired the information, and the readers can make their own decisions, and even scoff or mock or whatever they seek to do. I can only hope that those who have read the proof texts I gave you will find some Spiritual food therein for that is what the Scriptures teach.
The Scriptures are clear that salvation does not give a believer a license to sin. It also gives provision for acts of sin. See 1 John 1:9; 2:1-2 for starters.
I am not here to judge Doyle or any other fallen pastor, because ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD….. and THE HEART IS DECCEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS AND DESPERATELY WICKED, WHO CAN KNOW IT? THAT INCLUDES MY HEART TOO. Maybe not yours. I don’t know.
Re …and if you consider your answers to have been convincing then I am even more worried for you…
BT don’t worry about me. I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which he has committed, unto him against that day.
If Zoe’s logic eludes the bushman, that is not my problem. I understand what he says, even if his style is different to mine, but I think he has studied and rightly divides the Word WELL! I must confess though that I often have great trouble understanding what you say
I don’t come here to take a defensive position on anything. I share my knowledge of the Word of God. I stick to what I know. I don’t have to explore anything but what the Word teaches. My interest is to START with the WORD, to STICK to the WORD, and to STAND on the WORD. I am not interested in any of man’s philosophies or speculations. I just don’t have the time.
I share what I know and understand. If I don’t know or understand something I say that I don’t know or understand.
I am a very very simple person.
Georgie Porgie // May 24, 2009 at 7:51 PM
By the way BT, have you even explored the thought that Zoe or/I might really understand what we are saying and may even be right?
No, I didnt think so? So why must we explore this and that? Whatever that means.
Why do you guys always think we are defending anything? We are teaching Bible to those who will hear the WORD OF GOD.
Zoe // May 24, 2009 at 7:59 PM
‘Professing to be wise, they became fools” (Rom. 1:22).
Pat // May 24, 2009 at 8:09 PM
@ Bushtea:
After that response from GP, you must now be in convulsions from rolling around on the floor laughing. I can hear the hiccups. Take slow deep breaths.
Just leave the two preachers to their own devices. They not converting nor convincing anyone on this thread.
Georgie Porgie // May 24, 2009 at 8:12 PM
You guys remind me of the special delegation of the scribes and the Pharisees who came from Jerusalem as mentioned in Mark 7.
They had been sent to Galilee to spy on Jesus. THEY CAME TO EXPLORE! They were the intellectual opponents sent to trap the Lord Jesus. THEY CAME TO EXPLORE!
Of course, it wasn’t difficult for them to find some fault because the Lord Jesus entirely ignored their traditions.
Today, it is not hard for you to criticize the believer either, because believers are not perfect, and their doctrine does not really gel with the philosophies of men.
Just as Jesus and his disciples were not keeping the traditions, which were the Jews interpretation of the Old Testament, today believers who seek to stick only to Bible doctrine rather than church dogma also encounter difficulty.
This is because there are men who think that thier beliefs and philosophies, and thier church dogma should supercede the teaching of the Word of God
Such men believe that they are so intelligent that they can question and scoff at the creator that made them.
The Bible believer is in a quandary. No matter how he responds he is derided, disrespected and maligned!
Just as there was bound to be a confrontation between the Lord Jesus and His followers and the Pharisees and their followers in Mark 7, the same scenario exists today.
One group is made up of His friends, His followers, who love Him, and His Word. The second group is comprised of His enemies who seek to destroy Him and His Word.
It has always been this way. There are two groups: those who trust Him and those who reject Him. To be personal, which group are you in? That makes all the difference in the world. The question is not whether you are a member of a church or have been through some ceremony; rather it is what is your relationship to Jesus Christ? That is the all-important question.
In Jesus time, the Jews had forgotten the whole purpose of the laws that they had recieved—which is that a person must be made right with God before a relationship can be established. We find the same kind of thing today. So many people will argue points of religion when it is the Person of Jesus Christ that should be our concern.
Georgie Porgie // May 24, 2009 at 8:19 PM
Pat
My aim is not to convert or convince any one. You and BTare free to believe what you wish.
But I think that both Zoe & I have declared the word of God on this thread and this forum well.
We have divided the Word correctly, in season and out of season as taught in the Word of God- rather than according to the rudiments of men, despite the scoffing, and derision.
Bush Tea // May 24, 2009 at 8:54 PM
Thanks GP, I understand your position. No need to be so defensive…. I just wanted to point out that we are clearly different.
An answer of NO to the root question would bother me no end…. In fact, even if I buy a piece of equipment I find it impossible to rest until I can understand exactly how it works….
Obviously I had the identical problem with my faith and I took the necessary steps needed to ‘understand’.
Just two points to clarify:-
1 – I asked about SIMPLE questions. I would be surprised if you medics were unable to answer SIMPLE medical questions.
2 – Jesus HIMSELF, when asked by his disciples why he spoke to the people in parables, said that it because his aim was NOT for the people to understand, (although the disciples could). “so that seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand…”
…then (significantly), he asked his disciples “So don’t you understand the parable? in not, how will you understand ANY…?”
So GP, my problem is as follows. If the Bushman cannot understand the ‘parables’, then who is to say that he is not one of those who are “hearing but not understanding”?
… no doubt you are aware that many of those following Jesus around were religious sects who knew the OT like the back of their hands…..”but without a parable spoke he not unto them ”
Finally, here is the really difficult part: THE REASON he hid the message from them was “least at any time they should be converted, and their sin forgiven them” Mark 4:12 (as I am sure you know.)
…can you see why the bushman worries about understanding?
Bush Tea // May 24, 2009 at 9:15 PM
Hi Pat, long time….
Actually, I did not ROTFL at GP’s response because I understand where he is coming from.
Although he and Zoe cuss the bushman and call me a ‘biblical idiot’, the truth is that these two have been the most responsive debaters that I have had in 30 years….. and I have been call much worse – and I mean by my friends (ROTFL)
Most others (like ST for example LOL) usually just call the Bushman by some tag and run off… while MME just stays on the sideline watching me squirm…
..no skin off the Bush-back. If Jesus did not seek to proselytize why should the Bush tea?
Georgie Porgie // May 24, 2009 at 9:37 PM
Hopi ,
You are not fair when you write about Zoe
‘God has given to us His Revelation of what He wants us to know and understand, in His Word, the Bible. Beyond that, I don’t bother with what He has not revealed.’ Therein lies the problem, because according to Zoe, if it is not in that Bible, it is not revealed i.e. no one other than the authors of, and believers in that Bible knows anything of the Creator. This quote is coming from a very self-imposed- limited mind, who, in a world so vast with the wonders of the Creator, has placed itself in a prison of ignorance.
But we get from you a litany and tirade about the BLACK MAN, hir origins, his wisdom, his works, his wonders ad infinitum adnauseamque. It is your right to believe this if you wish
Dare we ask if your opinions come also from a very self-imposed- limited mind? Dare we suggest that you have also placed yourself in a prison of ignorance?
Dare we to suggest also that you should now go in to convulsions from rolling around on the floor laughing, and have hiccups, necessitating that you take slow deep breaths.
Dare we to suggest that there are some scoffers and explorers who seem genuinely unable to add anything to the discussion except to critique, and ask what they consider simple questions, which though they themselves can not answer them, expect believers to answer them?
Why should the believers on this forum- whom you consider dumb, and worthy of mocking degradation and disrespect- be able to answer questions that you intellectuals and philosophers can not yourself answer?
Georgie Porgie // May 24, 2009 at 9:54 PM
BT
Re
Although he and Zoe cuss the bushman and call me a ‘biblical idiot’
At know time have I called you a Biblical idiot or any other name- and you know it.
I said in good English that you do not understand the doctrine of salvation.
I wish I was home to lend you Evans’ GREAT DOCTRINES OF THE BIBLE,which is the simplest Systematic Theology I can think of.
Forgive me if I dont engage much tonight or tomorrow as I may not have the time .
Re I asked about SIMPLE questions. I would be surprised if you medics were unable to answer SIMPLE medical questions.
The history of Medical History reveals that the answers to SIMPLE questions were not grasped for a LONG LONG TIME. I hope you get my drift!
Some of the questions you and Technician call SIMPLE are clearly not SIMPLE! Else you would have the answers by now by your own arguement!
You know very well too that the Bajan use of the phrase a “simple question” is often a misnomer BT.
Hopi // May 24, 2009 at 10:20 PM
@GP…….I say NO to your rhetoric! The world in which I live and move is more real than the world of that Bible in which you and Zoe pretend to live. When people don’t want to face reality they can make all kind of excuses, like running to the Bible — a book that was written by ignorant men for the imprisoning of the minds of other ignorant men. Whether or not you accept it, Christianity and its Manifest Destiny have a very NEGATIVE and DETRIMENTAL impact on most of the people of this planet. It affects our daily existence. I know its not easy having to hear this on a daily basis, but you can bury your head in the sand all you want, IT IS WHAT IT IS! The day that the Black man awaken and shake off all of its vices then I wouldn’t have to talk about it. I know that Alkebulan has no significance to a lot of Black people, but that doesn’t mean that it is NOT SIGNIFICANT. So stay with your Bible and I’ll try to learn more info from the Ancestors!
Zoe // May 25, 2009 at 9:51 AM
Seven Wonders Of The Word.
1. The absolute wonder of its formation- the way in which it grew is on of the mysteries of all time.
2. The wonder of its unification – a library of 66 books, yet one book.
3. The wonder of its age – most ancient of all books.
4. The wonder of its sale – best-seller of ALL TIME, and of any book!
5. The wonder of its interest – only book in the world, read by all clases of people.
6. The wonder of its language – written largely by uneducated men, YET, the best book ever, from a literary standpoint.
7. The wonder of its preservation – the most hated of all books, yet it continues to exist.
Bible and Archaeological Testings.
Dr. Robert Dick Wilson, former professor of Semitic philology at Princeton Theological Seminary, said, “After forty-five years of scholarly research in biblical textual studies and in language study. I have come now to the conviction that NO man knows enough to assail the truthfulness of the Old Testament. Where there is sufficient documentary evidence to make an investigation, the statements of the Bible, in the original text, have stood the test.”
And the noted Dr. J.O. Kinnaman, said:
“Of the hundreds of thousands of artifacts found by the archaeologists, not one has ever been discovered that contradicts or denies one word, phrase, clause, or sentence of the Bible, but always confirms and verifies the facts of the Biblical record.”
Just like the scientific record of the billions of FOSSILS found, each and every time, they ALL appear, fully formed, exactly as they were Created, as stated in the Genesis account of Creation!
Georgie Porgie // May 25, 2009 at 10:08 AM
Hopi
Zoe or I do not live or pretend to live in some imaginary Biblical world. We live in the contemporary world. We differ in that though black, like you , we believe that the Bible is the sole authority for faith and practice, and we seek to model and teach that.
Whereas you harp upon your blackness, we sing the praise of Him who died on Calvary’s tree for the sins of the world or the whole world of sin. I think we have the right to do that, just as you have the right to major on Black History.
You can not determine that believers are running to the Bible as a form of escapism because they do not want to face reality, because you don’t have the facts. One cannot adjudicate correctly without the facts.
Also there is a distinction that critics fail to see. There is Christianity and there is CHRISTENDOM. Two different things. True Christianity is but a very small part of CHRISTENDOM
Repeating that the Bible was written by ignorant men for the imprisoning of the minds of other ignorant men does not, and will not make it so.
The NEGATIVE and DETRIMENTAL impact on most of the people of this planet is a result of sin! Sinful greedy men do evil wicked things whether they call themselves Christians or what ever they chose to call themselves.
You have obviously studied Black History and understand it well. It is important and has great significance for you. I appreciate your scholarship, but the subject off your special interest means nothing to me; just as the subject off my main special interest ( the Bible) means nothing to you. But it should be obvious to you that I have obviously studied the Bible and understand it well.
I know a man that honours all men that come and sits in his porch to drink rum and tal, for their knowledge and half knowledge of all subjects under the sun, and totally disregards the fact that his own son is as knowledgeable in the Scriptures as any of the other men in what they purport to know. That is in my view child abuse!
Re ……… Its child abuse to feed and ‘nurture’ on, and expose a child at the age of 16 to, the same principles that were responsible for the enslaving and destruction of his foreparents without the option of exposing him to other concrete and factual philosophies. But had your parents known better, they would have done better.
Bovine excrement!
In our culture in the 50’s and 60’s, when common sense still reigned children were exposed to Biblical or moral values that has served Barbados well! That can not be disputed. This is in marked contrast to those produced subsequently. I know this first hand, because I met them in the courts and prison, and I witnessed their wicked deeds at crime scenes all over Barbados!
I was brought up as an Anglican, and at age 16 while running behind a girl I fancied heard the gospel message preached! My parents didn’t abuse me by allowing me to leave the Anglican church, nor did they purchase any of the books I studied to gain my Bible knowledge. What child abuse what!
Why do you think that I am locked in a religious prison cell. I am also a keen student of cricket, and I can boast that in 1985 I influenced the GOB to introduce the NHS from the polyclinics, instead of stupidly copying the British NHS.
My human mind is only wasted to the extent where it lacks the opportunity to apply it to scenarios that benefits others. For example I wanted to do work as a medical missionary, but cant see why or how I can raise my own support to do so.I believe if a Mission Board wants me to serve full time, that they should see that I am fed and looked after and my basic needs met.
Ephesians 6:12 does largely explain what is happening on this planet today. Spiritual wickedness in high places. I don’t don’t about “This beast is the MATRIX.” But I know that the BEAST of REVELATION is a person yet to be officially or publically revealed by his master the Dragon or Satan himself.
Georgie Porgie // May 25, 2009 at 10:31 AM
BT
Yes we are different. I do not have the patience with small things and electronics. I can do hard manual work or stir concrete all day- or I used to be able to. That used to turn me on, on my real estate projects.
I have never had problems with my faith. I have described to you how I learned the Bible and how my faith developed. In all my studies of any subject, I have sought to master as many things that I can in given time. What you call SIMPLE questions (and you know that they are not simple, or they would have truly simple answers) I leave for last, or leave out all together!
As a Dr I don’t need to know all the intricacies of the brain to treat you adequately. If BT appears in front of me with a neurological problem, I know enough to recognize that he has A neurological problem, even if I don’t know exactly WHICH neurological problem. So I SIMPLY send BT in HASTE to he who knows much about neurological problems. ITS THAT SIMPLE. I know as a SIMPLE man, that I CANNOT KNOW EVERYTHING. Man MY FATHER ALWAYS TELING ME YOU DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING! Don’t you think that I know that I DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING by now?
Same with the Bible. I have a good idea how to survey the Bible, and I have mastered many of the books- not all, as well as what is commonly called THE GREAT CHAPTERS OF THE BIBLE, for obvious reasons. I have read and studied Systematic Theology, eg doctrine of God, of the Son , of the Spirit, of Sin, of the Second Coming etc
I have approached my Bible study seriously, sincerely, stedfastly etc and YET I DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING! And I am supposed to do what with those who have done none of this except to ask so called SIMPLE QUESTIONS, and mock and scoff, and those who can only quote obscure texts out of contexts? It is hilarious!
Discussions on the parables and Jesus teachings is another issue for another time BT.
BT work with what you do understand. That will help you in understanding wha you don’t understand…………..eventually! You think I waste time trying to understand much of what I don’t understand, such as WHY DO EVIL MEN GET THROUGH AND MEK NUFF MONEY AND ALWAYS GOT WUK, whereas men who are trying to live for God dont? Despite what the Bible says about the end of the same wicked !
I don’t understand it. Thinking about it makes me miserable. So I leave that out, and go do happy things cause I cant change the fact that EVIL MEN GET THROUGH AND MEK NUFF MONEY AND ALWAYS GOT WUK, whereas men who are trying to live for God dont? Despite what the Bible says about the end of the same wicked
I gone till next time. Cause we got to get back to the RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST!
Zoe // May 25, 2009 at 10:32 AM
Lessening Load!
A black man, carrying a bag of potatoes on his back, was asked by a skeptic: ” How do you know you are Saved?
The black man took a few steps and then dropped the bag. Then he said:
“How do I know I have dropped the bag? I have not looked around.”
“No” replied the man. “You can tell by the lessening of the weight.”
“Yes,” went on the black man, “That is how I know I am Saved. I have lost the guilty feeling of sin and sorrow, and have found peace and satisfaction in my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.”
Full Coverage.
“I have an insurance policy; Written in the blood of the Lamb; Sealed by the Cross of Jesus, Redeemable wherever I am!”
“The company will never go bankrupt; It is bonded by God’s promise true; It will keep every word of its contract, Exactly what it says, it will do.”
“I don’t have to die to collect it, No premiums do I have to pay; All I do is to keep God’s promise, And walk in His holy way.”
“No collector will ever come calling; It was paid in full on Calvary’s tree; It insures me for living and dying; And for all eternity.”
Zoe // May 25, 2009 at 10:55 AM
Epigram:
“Morality may keep you out of jail, but it takes the Blood of Jesus Christ to keep you out of Hell.”
-Spurgeon.
Hopi // May 25, 2009 at 10:56 AM
@GP…….Time is longer than twine and I would like to be alive to see this whole religious scam to to head because many a souls will be sorely disappointed. When people don’t want to deal with reality they pick up the bible and that it has been prophesied, just so they can continue to sit on their arses and wait for someone/thing to come down and save them. But you folks can stay in your sleepless slumber!
Zoe // May 25, 2009 at 10:58 AM
“You cannot cure a blind man by increasing the light.”
Nor, “Do you have to lite a candle to see the sun.”
Zoe // May 25, 2009 at 11:02 AM
HOPI, It ain’t going to happen, you’ll end up going from the ‘frying’ pan, where you now reside, into the FIRE; then you’ll believe, but, it’ll be TOO LATE!!!
Hopi // May 25, 2009 at 1:22 PM
@Zoelos….“You cannot cure a blind man by increasing the light.” Only someone with tunnel vision can spew forth such ‘enlightened’ crap.
Zoe // May 25, 2009 at 2:12 PM
HOPI, You should know, as you’re covered in IT!!!
Technician // May 25, 2009 at 2:22 PM
@ Zoe…
Seriously though….what kind of Christian are you??
I mean, look at GP…he makes his points and moves on whether or not we agree with him.
You on the other hand, are like a child making sure he/she has the last word in.
When I see you behaving like this (unchristian like behavior) it give me the impression that you are not steadfast or committed to your beliefs.
Some example you are setting for someone who is supposed to spread the word.
Zoe // May 25, 2009 at 5:21 PM
Jesus said, “Go tell that fox (Herod), ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.” (Luke 13: 32).
Paul said to the empty-headed at Corinth, “But if anyone is IGNORANT, let him be ignorant.” ( I Cor. 14:38).
Some of the synonyms of ‘crap’ are ‘nonsense’ ‘baloney’ ‘bilge’ ‘bunk’
‘hogwash’ ‘rot’ if you are talking Hogwash or Crap, that is what you need to be told; or maybe just a plain old fox! Just like Herod, or even more bluntly, as Paul said, ‘Ya ignorant!
Technician // May 25, 2009 at 6:56 PM
WOW !!!
Using the Bible to be dismissive to others….how christian like.
Then you would want to preach to others about taking the good book out of context.
You never fail to amaze me.
Pat // May 25, 2009 at 9:46 PM
@ Zoe,
With christians like you, no wonder the religion is not gaining any souls or as you would call them, saints.
The behaviours of so-called christians, more than my non-belief in Bible stories and its Hebrew god, is why I refused to indoctrinate my son in any religion. I always told him when he comes of age and he wants to join, he can so so. He is now 27 and does not seem in any hurry.
Mind you, he went to a Separate School and was taught religion, but the science teachers, I would guess, were better at their craft. He does not believe in creation as outlined in the Bible, but in evolution. After being trained as an engineer it is unlikely he will change his mind.
Zoe // May 25, 2009 at 11:39 PM
To you non-believers, you’ll find any excuse not to deal with truth, facts, and evidence; and BTW, Christianity is growing by multiplied millons all over the world, every month, and right here in B’dos, it is also growing; not the traditional churchs, but, where the Gospel is preached and taught according to God’s Word.
You scoffers think you can heap scorn and centempt any time on those of us who stand up for the truth of God’s Word; but the minute we came back at you, not cursing in any way, but simply calling a spade a spade, then we have no right to speak that way; sorry, but that won’t work!
Technician // May 26, 2009 at 7:11 AM
@Zoe…
Your arrogance, pride and dismissive attitude has nothing to do with scoffers.
It is the way you are as a person.
Technician // May 26, 2009 at 7:12 AM
….and please dont say ‘we’ as it is only you, who has shown this attitude.
Hog Squeal // May 26, 2009 at 10:02 AM
David Thompson and the Democratic Labour Party do not know what they are doing and Barbadians are paying a very high price for the ruling Party’s, poor judgment; bad decisions and political incompetence.
This first term of David Thompson is looking a lot like the last term of Erskine Sandiford but this country cannot take another four years of 8%-cut-Sandi.
Between 1991 and 1994 when Erskine Sandiford ran the Barbados economy into the ground, he turned to David Thompson and made him Minister of Finance.
Now that Thompson has triggered a meltdown of the Barbados economy, he turns to Sandiford, to who he is a going to sub-let the economy leadership of the Barbados economy, for the next four years.
If the “BEAST” is economic hardship, political incompetence and intellectual weakness, then it is already here and has been since January 15, 2008.
How do we get rid of the “BEAST”? Simple, call elections, that is – if we do not like eveil.
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 11:35 AM
Hog Squeal
Re
If the “BEAST” is economic hardship, political incompetence and intellectual weakness, then it is already here and has been since January 15, 2008.How do we get rid of the “BEAST”? Simple, call elections, that is – if we do not like eveil.
Unfortunately, Sir the BEAST is NOT economic hardship, political incompetence and intellectual weakness, though these things might indeed be beastly! You can somehow live with the situation that you think is the Beast, but trust me when the BEAST holds sway it WILL BE FAR HARDER, and unfortunately one be able to eradicate him as simply as holding an election!
Hog Squeal // May 26, 2009 at 11:45 AM
Georgie Porgie
I maintain:
“If the “BEAST” is economic hardship, political incompetence and intellectual weakness, then it is already here and has been since January 15, 2008.
How do we get rid of the “BEAST”? Simple, call elections, that is – if we do not like eveil.”
Pastor Durant, Pastor Holford, Lucille Baird, the Rev. at Christ Church Parish Church (who is now the Chairman of the QEH) and others said that Thompson was chosen by God.
Perhaps they mean the anti-christ. I maintain that Barbadians are clear about who and what the beast is.
It is in an economic form and was able to decive the Church. The Church even told us that Thompson has a hailo. Go and look at the newspapers.
Pray!!!
Wasn’t Thompson born on December 25th. See what I told you!!
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 12:54 PM
Hog Squeal
Thompson might have born on December 25th but he is neither Christ, nor is he the antichrist. The antichrist is/will not only be a deceiver but he will be an exceptionally smart man capable of attracting the whole world to himself.
Thompson pails in insignificance to antichrist.
Pastor Durant, Pastor Holford, Lucille Baird, the Rev. at Christ Church Parish Church may well be correct that he was chosen by God; so is Obama, and so was Nubuchadnezzar, and Titus in 70 AD.
Sometimes God choses wicked or incompetent or deceitful or popular leaders (at the time they came to prominence) to whip his people into shape. So as you say, BAJANS SHOUD PRAY.
See 2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Thompson and the DLP might currently be a Beast, or beastly to you and many in Bim today, but the economic situation today is mild to that in the time of the day. You can still buy and sell freely (if you have money). But when the real BEAST comes to the fore, you will need his mark to even buy and sell. The formation of the NEW World Order points to his revelation soon man, so pray!
Thompson is mild to the beast man….a mere likkle boy at the Sunday school excursion man. Barbadians are DEFINITELY NOT clear about who and what the beast is, yeh.
Thompson and the DLP might currently be a Beast or beastly to you and many in Bim today, but HE IS DEFINITELY NOT THE BEAST. The Beast will operate on an international scale. Thompson cant even manage our likkle nation of 166 square miles.
Don’t mek people laff man……… although you might think that the situation in Barbados is NOT funny.
This thread is about Bible prophesy man, not rum shop politics, man. LOL
I beg ya man, don’t descend to talking the level of bovine excrement as a certain fella who come in BU with flights of fancy and illusions and strange interpretations of simple texts, in clear breach of Cooper’s laws of Biblical interpretation and sound Hermeneutics. LOL
But I understand how you must feel, when you hear a man sounding good, smiling sweet, telling lies and incompetent etc. The first set of features may have fooled you. But man when you see the impotence and incompetence in Davey you should have known that this mouse aint no beast man. He might be a bogus beast but he aint no beast man. You have to have all the ducks in the row before you come to the diagnosos of beast man.LOL
the BEAST will NOT BE INCOMPETENT IN DOING WHAT HE WILL DO.
For example THE BEAST WOULDA GOT RICKY SINGH, FARIA & ALL OF THE ILLEGAL GUYANESE OUT OF BARBADOS EVER SINCE,,,,,,,,,,,, CAUSE NONE OF THEM DON’T HAVE THE BAJAN MARK! LOL
I agree wid yuh doh about PRAYING.
Be good.
Hog Squeal // May 26, 2009 at 1:06 PM
The antichrist is/will not only be a deceiver but he will be an exceptionally smart man capable of attracting the whole world to himself.
Thompson pails in insignificance to antichrist.
*********************
You make a sound point, but how did Barbados move from a position in December 2008 when Prime Minister Thompson was telling Barbadians to: “spend widely,” to him telling Barbadians five months after that they need to “cut and contrive.”
I understand the “BEAST” to be about deception.
Would David Thompson’s failed 90 and 100 day promises constitute deception?
In addition to Thompson, the Advocate, Pastor Holdford, Pastor Durant, Lucille Baird, and the Rev. at the Christ Church parish Church who is now the Chairman and the QEH, and eight thousand others – must accept full responsibility for any and all IMF-styled, Thompson/Sandi hardship – Barbadians face within the next four year.
The Church said Thompson was sent from on-high but he is causing hardship on our Land. is he the one? You know – the anti-christ?
Where is his mark? It must be some where on his body. Who can we ask?
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Hog squel
You studying Prime Minister Thompson too much, but yes David Thompson’s failed 90 and 100 day promises may probably constitute deception.
But remember political leaders have masters you know. They are merely the puppets of the ones who paid to get them in power, man. This is why they often have to recant from positions they made in the political campaigns in which they were elected.
Obama is another one touted by some to be the antichrist who has to now recant fro positions he probably sincerely held during the election.
You say that the Church said Thompson was sent from on-high and they can probably support their argument by quoting Romans 13:1 which says Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
This is even if the ordained power is causing hardship on our Land.
Skipper, you like you cant understand according to the Bible that the Antichrist will come to the fore after the rapture of the church. Even if that was to occur today (and it can) Thompson is not smart enough to be the anti-christ or the beast!
Don’t worry about Thompson mark and where it is. Accept Jesus, and you will be safe when the real beast comes.
Meanwhile, keep out of the way of Thompson and both the DLP & the BLP. Seek Christ instead man.
Hog Squeal // May 26, 2009 at 3:19 PM
Goergie Porgie wrote:
“For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”
My question is, then who sent Mr. Thompson to put the people of this Land under financial stress?
You say:
“The Antichrist will come to the fore after the rapture of the church.”
Well Lucille Baird, Pastor Holford, Pastor Durant the Rev. at Christ Church Parish Church and others – are more with David Thompson than who is in Heaven.
I agree, we should Pray and that is no joke beacuse Mr. Thompson’s hand is already and again being felt all across our Land with hardship and pain.
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 4:04 PM
RISE OF ANTICHRIST CONTINUED- Daniel 8
Because of Jesus’ reference to the abomination of desolation in the Olivet Discourse in Mathew 24, which deals with recognizing the signs that lead up to the period referred to as the Great Tribulation which precedes His glorious return to judge, an understanding of Daniel chapter eight is of great significance in discussing the rise of antichrist.
Whereas Daniel chapter 7 recorded the general history of “the times of the Gentiles,” from the time Nebuchadnezzar took the Jews into captivity in 586 BC until the Son of Man’s return to the earth, Daniel chapter 8 reveals more detail about the second (Persian) and third (Greek) kingdoms and especially how they relate to Israel.
The third year of Belshazzar in verse 1, was about 551 B.C., two years after the vision in chapter 7 and about 12 years before the events of chapter 5. Daniel was then living within the kingdom of Neo-Babylonia, the first beast of chapter 7..
The ram (male sheep) that Daniel saw in verse 3 standing before the canal represented Medo-Persia (as is explained in verse. 20). It corresponds to the lopsided bear in verse 5 of the vision given in chapter 7.
The two horns, representing power, symbolized Media and Persia, the two kingdoms that formed an alliance to create Medo-Persia. The longer horn stood for Persia, which had become more powerful in the alliance and had risen to displace Media in leadership after the two nations merged.
Historically the Medo-Persian Empire pushed its borders primarily in three directions. It went westward (into Lydia, Ionia, Thrace, and Macedonia), northward (toward the Caspian Mountains, the Oxus Valley, and Scythia), and southward (toward Babylonia, Palestine, and Egypt).
These advances happened mainly under the leadership of Cyrus and Cambyses. Indeed Medo-Persia had its own way for many years and glorified itself as the text indicates. When it says “he did according to His will and became great.”
The male goat identified in Daniel 8:5-8 represents Greece as is explained in verse 21. History has confirmed this identification. Alexander the Great is clearly the conspicuous horn. Under Alexander, the Greek armies advanced quickly from the West against
Persia.
Alexander’s conquest of the entire Near and Middle East within three years stands unique in military history and is appropriately portrayed by the lightning speed of this one horned goat.
Despite the immense numerical superiority of the Persian imperial forces and their possession of military equipment like war elephants, the tactical genius of young Alexander, with his disciplined Macedonian phalanx, proved decisive
Due to previous attacks by the Persians, the Greeks retaliated against their enemies with unusual vengeance. Alexander won two significant battles in Asia Minor in 334 B.C. and in 333, first at the Granicus River and then at Issus in Phrygia. Alexander finally subdued Persia with a victory at Gaugamela near Nineveh in 331 B.C.
It can not be denied that this was a fulfillment of Bible prophesy as this description clearly corresponds to that of the third beast in 7:6
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 4:06 PM
RISE OF ANTICHRIST CONTINUED- Daniel 8
Alexander magnified himself exceedingly in two ways. He extended the borders of his empire after he conquered Medo-Persia even farther east, into modern Afghanistan and to the Indus Valley. He also became extremely arrogant. He regarded himself as divine and made his soldiers bow down before him. This resulted in his troops revolting….. and as a result, Alexander the, the great horn was broken as the text of verse 8 declares.
Alexander, who had conquered more of the world than any previous ruler, was not able to conquer himself. Partly due to a strenuous exertion, his dissipated life, and a raging fever, Alexander died in a drunken debauch at Babylon, not yet thirty-three years of age. His death left a great conquest without an effective single leader, and it took about twenty years for the empire to be successfully divided, after his untimely death into four major sections
The four horns of verse 8 that arose out of the broken horn represented to be Alexander are identified to be Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy (cf.11:4).
Lysimachus ruled the northern part of Alexander’s empire, Cassander the western part, Seleucus the eastern part, and Ptolemy the southern part.
However, saw another horn in verse in Daniel 8:9-14. Daniel reports that he saw a rather small horn (called a king in verse 23) grow out of one of the four horns (called kingdoms in verse 22) that had replaced the single horn (the first king, v. 21) on the goat (identified as Greece, v. 21). It is important to note that this horn or king or ruler is quite clearly different from the little horn that came up among the 10 horns on the fourth beast in the previous vision (cf. 7:8, 11, 24-26).
This little horn is described in verse 9 as growing very great to the south, the east, and toward the pleasant land or “the beautiful” which is identified as a reference to Palestine (cf. 11:16, 41, 45; Jer. 3:19; Ezek. 20:6,15), or Israel.
History has identified this little horn as Antiochus IV (Epiphanes), the eighth king of the Seleucid dynasty, who ruled Syria from 175 to 164 B.C. (cf. 1 Macc. 1:10; 6:16), and who conducted military campaigns in all of these directions (cf. 1 Macc. 1:20).
In Daniel 8:10 we are told that this little horn grew up to the host of heaven, caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and trampled on them.
It is believed that the stars refers to the children of Israel whom God predicted would be as numerous as the stars of heaven (Gen. 15:5; 22:17; 37:9-10; cf. Dan. 12:3; Matt. 13:43; Enoch 46:7), since the stars are said to constitute God’s armies (cf. Exod. 7:4;
12:17, 51; Num. 33:1).
In Daniel 8:10, the prophet’s vision begins to focus on the future of Israel and the Jews.Antiochus was especially vengeful against the Jews whom he persecuted brutally. In fact, He is one of the greatest persecutors Israel has ever known.
In one of his assaults on Jerusalem, 40,000 Jews were killed in three days and 10,000 more were carried into captivity. But his suppression of the Jews came to a head in December 168 B.C., when Antiochus returned in frustration from Alexandria, where he had been turned back by the Roman commander Popilius Laenas, and vented his exasperation on the Jews.
He sent his general, Apollonius, with twenty thousand troops under orders to seize Jerusalem on a Sabbath. There he erected an idol of Zeus and desecrated the altar by offering swine on it.
This idol became known to the Jews as ‘the abomination of desolation’ (hassiqqus mesomem, 11:31), which served as a type of a future abomination that will be set up in the Jerusalem sanctuary to be built in the last days (cf. Christ’s prediction in Matt 24:15).
Three years later, on December 25, 164 B.C., Judas Maccabaeus, a Jewish nationalist, led the Jews in rededicating the temple to Yahweh. This is the event that Jews have celebrated with Hanukkah ever since.
Thus the little horn arising from the third kingdom serves as a prototype of the little horn of the fourth kingdom- the revised Roman Empire depicted in Daniel 2 & 7. This event has obviously not yet transpired.
The crisis that was destined to confront God’s people in the time of the earlier little horn, Antiochus Epiphanes, and which did actually occur, as pointed out above, will bear a strong similarity to the crisis that will befall them in the eschatological or final phase of the fourth kingdom (the revised Roman Empire) in the last days (as Christ himself predicted in the Olivet Discourse [Matt 24:15]).
This is the connection between this chapter Daniel 8 & Mathew 24 as pointed out by Jesus himself!
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 4:09 PM
RISE OF ANTICHRIST CONTINUED- Daniel 8
Daniel 8:11 reveals that Antiochus (lit. illustrious one) effectively exalted himself to a position of superiority over Yahweh, the commander (or prince) of the host (the Jews), by temporarily terminating the constant sacrifices (Heb. tamid) in the temple, including the daily morning and evening sacrifices, thereby depriving Yahweh of His people’s worship (cf. 1 Macc. 1:44-49, RSV). Such an attack on the place set aside for worship of God is
tantamount to an attack on God Himself.
Apparently Antiochus did not actually tear down the temple, but he eventually desecrated it to such a point that it was hardly fit for use [cf. 1 Macc. 4:48]. Its overthrowing or casting down (as in the KJV) consisted in its being prevented from functioning as a place of worship of the true God.
Antiochus’ actions anticipates or previews what the Antichrist, the little horn of chapter 7, will do in the future (cf. 7:8, 20).
In Daniel 8:12 the notion that God would give control of the host (the Jews) to the little horn (Antiochus) because of transgression suggests that God would use Antiochus as His instrument of discipline as He had used so many other leaders and nations in Israel’s past because of Israel’s transgression (cf. 1 Macc. 1:44-49, RSV).
Antiochus actually terminated the sacrifices, disregarded the truth by destroying the Torah scrolls, 1 Macc. 1:56), and generally did as he chose, and prospered for a time!
In Daniel 8:13, the holy ones (Heb. qados) that Daniel heard conversing about the transgression of Antiochus were apparently angels (cf. 4:17), who wanted to know how long the desecration of the sanctuary and the persecution of the Jews would
last. (The holy place is the temple, and the host is the Jews).
In Daniel 8:14 we see that an angel replied but did so to Daniel with the intent to . The comfort him and his people, the Jews. The angel said that the desecration would last 2,300 evenings and mornings.
There is much dispute among Bible scholars about the meaning of 2,300 evenings and mornings and innumerable explanations have been given to make the twenty-three hundred days coincide with the history of Antiochus Epiphanes.”.
Regardless of how we solve the 2,300 evenings and mornings problem there is general agreement among the scholars that Antiochus fulfilled this prophecy. I personally think that the 2,300 days period describes the duration of the period when Antiochus did his worst to the temple and the Jews (167-164 B.C.).
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 4:14 PM
RISE OF ANTICHRIST CONTINUED- Daniel 8
Daniel gives the interpretation of this vision in Daniel 8:15-26
As in the vision recorded in Daniel 7:16, Daniel needed help understanding what he had seen. He saw someone who looked like a man standing before him. Evidently this was an angel. Daniel also heard a voice that he could understand, possibly God’s, instructing the angel by name to give Daniel understanding of the vision.
“Gabriel” (lit. “God has shown Himself strong,” “strong man of God,” or “man of God”) is one of only two angels, and the first, that the Bible identifies by name, the other being Michael (cf. 9:21; 10:13, 21; 12:1; Luke 1:19, 26).
When Gabriel’s approached Daniel he was so fearful that he prostrated himself on the ground. Gabriel then introduced his interpretation by explaining to Daniel that the vision concerned “the time of the end” or the end times (cf. v. 19).
The vision dealt with events yet future from Daniel’s viewpoint in history. Daniel’s response to Gabriel’s awesome presence and words was that he fainted. Gabriel then proceeded to revive the prophet and to prepare him to receive the remainder of the interpretation.
In Daniel 8:19 Gabriel clarified that what he was going to explain dealt with “the final period of the indignation” and “the appointed time of the end.” Clearly this was future from Daniel’s point in history. But there is dispute as to whether this refers to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes exclusively, or does it refer to the end times before Jesus Christ returns, or both?
Most premillennial interpreters believe that it refers to both in some sense, either as a double fulfillment, or as a type and antitype. This conclusion rests on what follows in verses 23-25 and on other uses of the phrase “the end” in Daniel (9:26; 11:6, 27, 35, 40, 45; 12:4, 6, 9, 13).
We see in verses 20-22 that Gabriel identified the ram with the two horns as Media and Persia (cf. vv.3-4), and that he further identified the rough goat as Greece (cf. vv. 5-7).
The large horn on the goat is the first king of Greece, namely, Alexander the Great. The four kingdoms that arose to replace Alexander when he died were Macedonia and Greece, Thrace and Asia Minor, Egypt and Palestine, and Syria and Persia (cf. v. 8).
Most conservative expositors agree that verses 20-22 have been fulfilled completely in history in connection with the Medo-Persian and Greek empires and the four divisions
following Alexander the Great.
With respect to Daniel 8:23-25, almost all scholars recognize that Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled what Gabriel predicted in these verses (cf. 1 Macc. 1:10).
He arose in the latter period of the Diacochi, the four kingdoms that came into existence after Alexander’s death, following many transgressors of God’s will. Antiochus Epiphanes was bold and deceptive. He was powerful because God allowed him to be so. He did much damage, especially to Jerusalem and the temple. He became prosperous and carried out his objectives.
He destroyed powerful people, including the Jewish high priest, as well as many Jews. He fooled many people with his shrewdness, some of whom were unsuspecting. He exalted himself even to the extent of minting coins that bore his image and the inscription “God manifest” (Gr. Theos epiphanes). He also opposed God, the “Prince of princes.”
Many students of these verses have noticed striking similarities between Antiochus Epiphanes as described here and another political leader predicted to appear in the future (cf. 7:8, 11, 21-22, 24-26; 9:27; 11:36-45; 12:11; Matt. 24:5, 23-24, 26; Mark 13:6, 21-22; Luke 21:8; 2 Thess 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7; Rev. 13:1-10; 19:20; 20:10). Such students, and I, conclude that these verses are prophetic of the Antichrist aswell as of Antiochus.
It seems that Antiochus did on a smaller scale what Antichrist will do on a larger one. Apparently in the much later period of the rule of these kings, namely, the end times, transgressors will have run their course even more completely. The Antichrist will oppose the Prince of princes, God the Son, who will break him without human
agency (Ps. 2; Rev. 19:19-20).
One of the key things about the Antichrist is that he will use witchcraft, and that he will come to power on a false promise of PEACE! He will mimic the Prince of Peace by offering what will be a false peace. There will be no true peace until the Prince of Peace returns to usher in peace.
In Daniel 8:26, the prophet was instructed to seal up this ” vision of the evenings and mornings” in the sense of recording, finishing, and preserving it, not in the sense of making it secret. He was to do this because the vision pertained to many days in the future, namely, four centuries later in the first instance, as well as beyond then in the end times in the second instance.
This is called the law of double mention. Other examples of this double or typological fulfillment are Jesus fulfilling what was prophesied of and
fulfilled to some degree by Moses, the Israelites, and David.
The knowledge that severe persecution was in store for his people in the future “the holy people” (v. 24) distressed Daniel greatly. This experience so drained him of energy that he was sick for several days and could not work. (8:27)
The emphasis in this chapter is on the little horn, as the emphasis in chapter 7 was on the little horn, though two different individuals are in view. The little horn in chapter 7 is Antichrist, and the little horn in chapter 8 is Antiochus in the short range and Antichrist in the long range. Chapter 8 focuses on the Jews as the target
the short range.
Chapter 7 focuses on believers generally as the target of Antichrist’s
opposition. However, there is some hint in both chapters that in the long range the Jews will be the objects of persecution.
“The times of the Gentiles”, although not entirely a period of persecution of
Israel, has often resulted in great trial to them.
Of the four great world empires
anticipated by Daniel, only the Persian empire was relatively kind to the
Jew. As Christ Himself indicated in Luke 21:24, the times of the Gentiles
is characterized by the treading down of Jerusalem, and the subjugation
and persecution of the people of Israel.”
Again we stress that in Mathew 24:15 Jesus said When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 4:28 PM
Hog Squeal
Romans 13 “For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.” Does not mean that a people will not some ties have a bad leader. It means that God allows certain leaders to come to the fore for GOD’s purposes; whether we see those purposes to be good or bad or to our benefit or not.
Maybe God has indeed sent Mr. Thompson to put the people of this Land under financial stress. Maybe God allowed us to have what we thought we deserved.
You seem to think that Thompson has all this power to put people under financial stress. Perhaps Thompson lacks the power or knowledge or finesse to solve the problems facing Bim. Perhaps the global financial meltdown is too hard for him to cope.
Maybe the BU family should star the BU party as an alternative to the DLP & BLP. I will be Minister of Health David! LOL
I touting MME for PM, Bush Tea for the Ministry of Philosophy! I even have a pick for Hopi, Technician, Not Saved and Rohan! David BU will be the Speaker of the House and Yard Broom the Venerable Governor General!
I want wunnah to agree to give me JC as my personal aide!
Sargeant // May 26, 2009 at 4:42 PM
@GP
I will be Minister of Health David
******************************
I think Minister of Religious Affairs would be a better pick
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 4:50 PM
Sargeant did you see my proposals to improve the National Health Care System on BU since early last year?
Have Donville or Dr Loud Mout achieved even 1% of that?
For a Christ Church Foundation man you dissapoint me even though I know you were offering a compliment.
Sargeant I sorry but according to the “Kingo” scale of marking I gwine have to give you no marks man……..NO FACTS NO MARKS. I know I hard pun you but that is the current state imposed by the global meltdown. LOL Maybe I would of ease up pin a man like BT and give he 1 or 2, but a Ch Ch man like you ought to know better man!
Sargeant // May 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM
@GP
I saw your National Health Care proposals but you make such convincing arguments in defending your faith that a backslider like me can’t help but be impressed. I thought that you wouldn’t need the extra stress of taking on the Health Establishment in B’dos but would relish the thought of getting the country back on the straight and narrow and to prepare for the inevitable..
Oh No!! not nought man, how will I explain that on my Report Card? LOL
J // May 26, 2009 at 5:35 PM
So Georgie Porgie:
Tell me what “Cabinet” pick you gie Hopi?
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 6:15 PM
@ J
Education with special emphasis on Black History!
@ Sargeant
Ok . On second thoughts your concern ought to be taken into consideration, but we need the job done properly!
I suppose that the stress of taking on the Health Establishment in B’dos might not be as hard as getting the country back on the straight and narrow and to prepare for the inevitable..
I am sorry that I cant change your mark, son, because you suppose to know the marking scale.
As a consollation I will give you an all expenses in month trip to Swambogey Land with the wife, including adequate time on newly made canoes from mango seeds.
You can not say that I am an unreasonable judge, even though I could not give you a pardon for your sins.
BTW did you attend the Parish church and go to Sunday school there too?
Not Saved // May 26, 2009 at 6:37 PM
What cabinet spot you have for me?
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 7:07 PM
You can help MME in the PM’s office man. Where else?
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 7:12 PM
You and Rohan!
Wunnah got brain.
Wunnah dont know the Bible proper but I wont hold that against wunnah LOL. Nor Hopi. LOL
Not Saved // May 26, 2009 at 7:16 PM
Thanks !
Yes I will help out MME, he will make a good PM.
Sargeant // May 26, 2009 at 7:30 PM
@GP
I went to Church and Sunday School there for a short time while still in short pants when A I Johnson in charge. I think Crichlow was there also there as an assistant at the time. I continued at another Anglican church…. Can’t say which one but in Ch.Ch.
Georgie Porgie // May 26, 2009 at 7:39 PM
@ NOt SavedWell let we convene and do this thing! We have three years to pull it off! LOL
@ Sargeant
Can you remember what years? I attended from 62-68 when AI was there. Crichlow and I McK Jones was also there.
So you then went to St Davids or St Christopher or St Bartholomew or St Patricks? Where did you live? The only other Anglican churches in Ch Ch are St Lawrence & St Mathias.
JJ // May 27, 2009 at 7:07 AM
Dear Georgie Porgie,
Just playing catch up! Thank you for your welcome. I look forward to intelligently discussing these issues with you and others. Please excuse me if I take time to reply. I have only limited internet access.
You wrote…
QUOTE: “Revelation 6-19 deals with the judgement that will be meted out on the earth and on men, on the false church and on the world system including its commerce.”
We are in agreement here. Granted, this is a very general overview – it is one sentence summarizing 14 chapters.
QUOTE: “I don’t agree with you since there are several verses that teach about the judgement of God. I am sure that you have read them. Perhaps you can inform me why you think that a loving God wont punish ungodly men severely in the light of 2 Peter 3:9 inter alia”
This is a misunderstanding here. I most certainly believe that God is love and that He will punish the ungodly according to the Scriptures. I certainly believe in the judgment and I believe that it’s already begun with professed believers. However the original context of my rhetorical question is that it is inconsistent with the character of God to do His strange work of punishing (executing judgment on) those who have been forced to receive a microchip and specifically I gave the example of how certain parents may choose for their CHILDREN to receive a chip implant. They may make this choice because of fear / pressure since everyone else is doing it, or for security reasons – power of control / to monitor their children. The children have no choice in the matter – say they are so young they can barely speak. They grow up with this implant within them. Then I asked the question, will God then pour out His final wrath upon these children who receive this ‘chip’ without a choice in the matter? How would that vindicate God’s character? Would He be glorified?
QUOTE: Re “The saints are in heaven in Rev 4, the aints are not!”
Q Please kindly me enlighten me as to what you consider the phrase “ Come up hither” means in Revelation 4:1. In its primary interpretation John is addressed. Most scholars believe that this invitation also signifies the rapture. I hold to that view.”
“Come up hither” is a unique summons that Jesus gives to John. John is in vision and is asked to voluntarily come up from where he is on earth to the throne room in heaven. There is no reference to a ‘rapture’ of saints here because the whole context is about what John is going to be shown with regards to what will happen shortly hereafter.
QUOTE: “I would be interested to hear you view of when the saints do go to heaven in the light of Paul’s pronouncement in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, and where you place their ascent relative to the teachings in Revelation.”
1Thess 5:10 “Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.” In context, Paul is speaking about “that day,” which is the “day of the Lord,” verse 2. In other words, AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, the saints go to heaven. Not before. In terms of Revelation, this ascent of the saints is placed whenever the second coming is spoken about. This is found throughout the book. A specific reference would be Revelation 11:12.
QUOTE: “Q Why don’t you think that the saints are in heaven by Revelation 4?
By the aints (was rhyming with saints) refer to those who have not received Jesus as Savior before the rapture.”
If the “saints” refer to all who are saved, then they are not in heaven by Rev 4 simply because Christ has not come yet to resurrect them to life everlasting. However Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the 24 Elders and those who were raised in Matt 27:51-53 (the last 2 groups may overlap) ARE in heaven because God has taken them there.
QUOTE: “Q Why do you think that the 24 Elders in Revelation 4 are redeemed human beings. What is your biblical warrant for this?”
These ‘elders’ are mentioned twelve times in Revelation (4:4, 10; 5:8, 11, 14; 7:11-13; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4) and are distinguished from the angels of God (5:11; 7:11). They are humans, for only the human race needs to be REDEEMED (Revelation 5:9). That is the biblical warrant.
QUOTE: “No one knows what the mark will be exactly.. I believe that the mark is a literal mark as I believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible including Revelation. We do know that use of microchips is prevalent by vets in the USA to monitor the whereabouts of people’s precious stray pets, and that they are also used for recording financial information. My view which I have clearly articulated is that microchips might very well be utilized in the application of the mark and its monitoring and enforcement along with several other technologies which have come on stream in let0s say (to be conservative) the last 100 years or so. You are free to disagree, but could you give your views on the possible use of any technology with respect to the mark of the beast? I said in my previous post that there are a range of technologies now in vogue, that people take for granted and as the norm, that way well be incorporated in the mark of the beast and might be used in its application, monitoring and enforcement. I stand by that. Life was going on as usual when the flood came, and life will be going on as usual when the rapture occurs, and when the events that occur afterwards occurs.”
Why would God pronounce His most solemn threatening (in Rev 14) against those who receive the mark of the beast AND NOT TELL US WHAT THAT MARK IS? There are many who do know exactly what that mark will be. It is not God’s design that anyone should be kept in the dark regarding the final controversy. I’ll let you know my thoughts after responding to this reply.
QUOTE: “I see that you don’t believe in the rapture. Please show me that there will be no rapture!”
If by the term “rapture,” you mean the vanishing of millions of Christians leaving the non-Christians behind, then there are literally tons of verses and passages that demonstrate this to be a farce. I will go through them on a separate post.
QUOTE: “Whereas I agree with you that God also marks the 144,000., he does not have to enforce or monitor this mark like the beast. These folk are quite willing to suffer or die for taking the mark. Can you amplify why God’s mark would be different from the Beast’s mark?”
God’s end time mark and the mark of the beast are opposites. They show who we line ourselves with – God or Satan. The mark of the beast is Satan’s attempt at counterfeiting the Seal of God. And as you’ve said, God never forces.
QUOTE: “Whereas there will be no real prostitute riding a beast but you better believe that the false church symbolized by the name MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS in Revelation 17:5 and the cosmos diabolicus and the world’s economic system that will be destroyed in Revelation 18 are prostitutes by their behavior.”
A few sentences ago, you said that you “believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible including Revelation.” Then why is this prostitute not a literal whore riding a literal beast. You’ve just dropped your own rule of interpretation. You see, my point is that much symbolic imagery is used in representing the end times.
QUOTE: “Even to day much of Christendom is prostituting itself for filthy lucres sake, and world governments and the banking system and other facets of the cosmos diabolicus and the world’s economic system are bone fide prostitutes!”
It goes a lot deeper than that. Spiritual adultery is prostitution. Apostasy is prostitution. There is widespread impurity doctrinally and practically. Characters are not being formed according to Christ.
QUOTE: “I understand from my studies of Hermeneutics what symbols and types and allegories and litotes etc etc are So I unders tand Genesis 4:15, ” Deuteronomy 6:6, 8 and Deuteronomy 11:18 etc. I look forward to you demonstrating your view of how the mark of the beast will be applied, monitored and enforced.”
Thank you Georgie Porgie. I hope to plainly lay out the mark of the beast issue asap.
JJ // May 27, 2009 at 7:53 AM
Dear Zoe,
Thank you for your reply.
I’d like for you to follow this thought… We all know guns are bad because they can kill. Whenever we see a gun or even hear the word ‘gun’ we associate our thoughts with violence and blood, etc. That’s obvious.
However, the Scriptures say in Revelation 19:20, “He deceived them that had received the mark of the beast.” Notice that word ‘DECEIVED.’
Those who receive the mark of the beast are deceived. It stands to reason therefore that the mark of the beast must not be too obvious or easily noticed. If it were, how could almost the entire world be mislead??
Jesus warned us that Satan’s deceptions are so deceptive they can “deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Matthew 24:24.
How deceptive would it be for someone to command everyone to accept a microchip in their foreheads or in their hands? How many real people do you know who would accept big government implanting biochip technology inside their heads?
JJ // May 27, 2009 at 7:57 AM
I do observe the seventh day Sabbath according to God’s commandment.
If I am a ‘rat’ because I’m ‘Sabbatarian’, then what is God? For it is written that He rested on the seventh day. And what is Jesus, who’s custom it was to observe the Sabbath.
JJ // May 27, 2009 at 9:01 AM
QUOTE: Zoe: “I know exactly where you are coming from, JJ, I can smell a ‘rat’ plainly in some of your comments, an obvious ‘Sabbatarian’ no doubt!”
Georgie Porgie: “I figured as much Zoe. I hope you can exegete Galatians, cause we will have some real LAW goo being spouted. You always got to look for the googly with these folk.”
Well, both your suspicions are correct, But for those who may not be so aware, then let me state it definitively: THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY.
JJ // May 27, 2009 at 9:02 AM
Let’s begin…
JJ // May 27, 2009 at 9:02 AM
WHAT IS SIN?
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 9:39 AM
JJ
Whereas, we clearly do not agree on many things, besides Zoe, you are one of very persons who have come on BU who has made an attempt at intelligently discussing any Biblical issue. This is heartening.
My point, on which we agree that
“Revelation 6-19 deals with the judgement that will be meted out on the earth and on men, on the false church and on the world system including its commerce.” Was/is indeed a very general overview that summarizes 14 chapters in one sentence.
.
QUOTE: I gave the example of how certain parents may choose for their CHILDREN to receive a chip implant. They may make this choice because of fear / pressure since everyone else is doing it, or for security reasons – power of control / to monitor their children. The children have no choice in the matter – say they are so young they can barely speak. They grow up with this implant within them. Then I asked the question, will God then pour out His final wrath upon these children who receive this ‘chip’ without a choice in the matter? How would that vindicate God’s character? Would He be glorified?
Sir, again let me stress that I don’t know that microchips will be used as the mark, I do know that there are commonly used in the USA by vets to assist in the tracking of lost pets, and there are being used for giving medicines and for banking purposes already. It is not unreasonable, therefore, to expect them along with other contemporary technologies to be incorporated into a system of application and monitoring of the mark.
Regardless to the form the mark takes, children will most likely have to take it according to all the scenarios above that you mention. I can not pontificate as to what God or will not do with respect to the judgement of little- nor can you. Nor are we in a position to question what will vindicate God’s character or cause Him to be glorified, except in matters in which he has clearly thus stated in His Word. I tend not to speculate about matters that are unclear from God’s Word. However, one might think that whatever means that God uses currently to deal with children who die before they reach an age of understanding, would be applied in this scenario. But why not leave the judging to God?
The issue we were trying to consider is what is the mark and how MIGHT IT be manifested, applied and monitored. My opinion was delivered from the point of view that prophesy is/has always best be interpreted as it occurs, and that God gives his people knowledge, or discernment of what He is about to do (cf Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses etc etc
You wrote “Come up hither” is a unique summons that Jesus gives to John. John is in vision and is asked to voluntarily come up from where he is on earth to the throne room in heaven. There is no reference to a ‘rapture’ of saints here because the whole context is about what John is going to be shown with regards to what will happen shortly hereafter.
On that we agree, to a point. In chapters 1-3 of Revelation, there is discussion about the 7 churches. Many see this as a panorama of the church age or the age of grace. After chapter 6, there is judgement. On the basis of Paul’s teaching that the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven before the judgements start.
Now I know that some folk differ with respect to WHEN the saints are raptured, and some believe that there is no rapture at all!
You state that the saints go to heaven AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, and not before but you seem not to know, or understand or believe that the second coming involves two phases, as the Scriptures clearly teach.. In one phase (the rapture or parousia) the Lord meets the saints in the air in a secret coming; in the second phase ( the epiphanea or glorious appearing) he comes down to earth to win the battle of Armageddon, and every eye shall see Him.
You state that In terms of Revelation, this ascent of the saints is placed whenever the second coming is spoken about. This is found throughout the book. A specific reference would be Revelation 11:12. My friend you have left out the details man. Note that the second phase of the second coming is well described throughout the OT. The first phase or rapture or parousia is referred to by Paul in I Cor 15 as a MYSTERY. That is it is a truth that had never before revealed in the Bible.
You need to forget your denominational dogma, and with an open mind read the Bible (perhaps with the help of a Systematic Theology where all the Scriptures on the doctrine are extracted and laid bare) and find ALL the references to the parousia as set out in the NT. You will find that you might learn a lot. I found that I learned many things and re- learned many things when I read the Word for myself or good commentaries that set out the various positions on a controversial issue, and discusses them in the light of all the relevant scriptures! TRY IT SOMETIME.
I asked Why don’t you think that the saints are in heaven by Revelation 4?
You responded.
If the “saints” refer to all who are saved, then they are not in heaven by Rev 4 simply because Christ has not come yet to resurrect them to life everlasting. However Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the 24 Elders and those who were raised in Matt 27:51-53 (the last 2 groups may overlap) ARE in heaven because God has taken them there.
Will you read John 5:29. I Cor 15:51 et secq, I Thes 4:13-18 & Revelation 20: 5 et secq and ask the Lord to help you to see that there are TWO RESURECTIONS, and reason that these are separated from eah other it seems by at least 1007 years?
You ask Why would God pronounce His most solemn threatening (in Rev 14) against those who receive the mark of the beast AND NOT TELL US WHAT THAT MARK IS?
The Bible tells us that the mark is 666 and that it will be applied to the forehead or right hand. It says nothing else. So God has indeed made his solemn threat, as you say and not told us what the mark actually is. Our opinions of what the mark might be have come to the fore as the time approaches.
You say : There are many who do know exactly what that mark will be. It is not God’s design that anyone should be kept in the dark regarding the final controversy. I’ll let you know my thoughts after responding to this reply.
I look forward to your opinion or denominational dogma.
As I discerned it is clear that you don’t believe in the rapture. I assure you that the literal tons of verses and passages that demonstrate this to be a farce, ought to be hilarious spouting of denominational dogma.
You say :
A few sentences ago, you said that you “believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible including Revelation.” Then why is this prostitute not a literal whore riding a literal beast. You’ve just dropped your own rule of interpretation.
NO I DID NOT. Whereas I believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, I also recognize all the various figures of speech employed at various points and I said so. Another poster went at length on one of the other threads recently to present al of these; including simile, metaphor, litotes, anthropomorphism, symbols, types, allegory etc
Whereas much symbolic imagery is used in representing the end times in Revelation, there are many scriptures about the eschaton that are presented all through the Bible in clear simple English, that can only be muddied by denominational dogma.
You ask Zoe a few questions such as
How many real people do you know who would accept big government implanting biochip technology inside their heads?
MANY. People being deceived by government is the NORM. It happens everyday.
Even today, there is talk in the USA about this issue.
Last week the idea of attaching GPS to all cars so that they can be tract down by police at anytime, AND MANY CALLED IN TO SAY THEY SEE NO PROBLEM IN IT ONCE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE!
Just as we have accepted credit cards, bar coding, microchipping of pets, and microchipping for medicine and banking. It is not hard to conceive going the whole hog as it were.
The mark does not have to be microchips. But the mark does sound like it will be inter alia like a credit card as it will allow you to buy and sell. Already today in some countries you cant get a hotel room or rent a car without a credit card. Jus as possessing a credit card today suggests that one is credit worthy, possessing the Beasts “ credit card” will do the same for the system at that time..
You say Those who receive the mark of the beast are deceived. It stands to reason therefore that the mark of the beast must not be too obvious or easily noticed. If it were, how could almost the entire world be mislead??
THAT’S A NONSEQUITUR. Read 2 Thes 2:8- 12. That should make things a little clearer. And don’t ask me why should God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe THE lie, cause I DON’T KNOW.
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I believe that most of the world are generally deceived by their political leaders , so for a leader with the charisma of the Antichrist to deceive them will be as easy as drinking coconut water on a hot hot day.
Hog Squeal // May 27, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Georgie Porgie said:
“Maybe God has indeed sent Mr. Thompson to put the people of this Land under financial stress. Maybe God allowed us to have what we thought we deserved.
You seem to think that Thompson has all this power to put people under financial stress. Perhaps Thompson lacks the power or knowledge or finesse to solve the problems facing Bim. Perhaps the global financial meltdown is too hard for him to cope.”
*************************
Even if Clico bought the government, truth is the DLP now cannot get the country run. My principle point is that the DLP came to office in sin – having bought the government.
Greed, deception, lies; misrepresentation of fact – all sin.
That a group of people would be so determine and go to such extreme to rule and do the DEVILS work, such as the inhumane treatment of immigrant just like Hitler treated the JEWS – has to be a out-fit sent by the DEVIL and carrying the mark of the BEAST.
How then, each time the DLP is in office, – crime increases, so too hunger, economic pain and sufferring, domestic violence, and a lowering of the bar, as it relates to a moral minimum?
Thompson is th Antichrist and the DLP’s logo is the mark or symbol of the BEAST.
Georgie Porgie, I am convinced
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 11:02 AM
Hog Squeal
Re Thompson is th Antichrist and the DLP’s logo is the mark or symbol of the BEAST.
Georgie Porgie, I am convinced
LOL I CAN SEE THAT YOU ARE SIR!
But I discussing what the Bible says about the BEAST that is to come at a later date.
BTW throughout the ages, many have felt the same way about Hitler and other leaders.
Zoe // May 27, 2009 at 11:03 AM
JJ, Would you be kind enough to identify if you are an Seventh-day Adventist?
Also, I NEVER called you a ‘rat’ when I said ‘I smell a rat’ it clearly meant, ‘I suspect’ that you are a Sabatarian, no more no less!
Why did Jesus oberseve the Sabbath?
You said, “The Mark of the Beast is Satan’s attempt at counterfieting the Seal of God.”
What is the ‘Seal of God?” Prove from Scripture, not implication, or dogma, what or Who is the Seal of God?
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 11:07 AM
To all who are interested
There are in Barbados, the USA and other places church gatherings that are emerging from their denominations and thier church dogma, and meeting around the Word, and seeking to sincerely ascertain what the Bible really teaches, instead of adhering to the traditions of thier fore parents.
There was such a movement in 1820 or so when John Darby and others departed from the Anglican church of Ireland, and formed what became the “Plymouth Brethren” (because the largest group soon began to meet at Plymouth in England.)
Hog Squeal // May 27, 2009 at 11:08 AM
You are right, I am serious:
That a group of people would be so determine and go to such extreme to rule and do the DEVILS work, such as the inhumane treatment of immigrant just like Hitler treated the JEWS – has to be a out-fit sent by the DEVIL and carrying the mark of the BEAST.
How then, each time the DLP is in office, – crime increases, so too hunger, economic pain and sufferring, domestic violence, and a lowering of the bar, as it relates to a moral minimum?
Zoe // May 27, 2009 at 12:20 PM
@JJ, Jesus said:
“Think not that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to FULFILL. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until ALL is acomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 5:17-19). emphasis added.
Now, in John we read:
“After this, Jesus, knowing that ALL THINGS had been ACCOMPLISHED, in order that Scripture might be FULFILLED, said, ‘I am thirsty.” (John 19:28-30).
This verse is extremely important to a correct understanding of Matthew 5: 17-19. For, it is here that we find that Jesus had already ‘accomplished’ all but one of the prophecies regarding His life and death of the Messiah. One thing, however still remained to be ‘fulfilled’ so Jesus said, ‘I thirst.’
When we let Scripture interpret Scripture, as a sound principle in Biblical hermeneutics, the meaning of this passage becomes evident. Notice how it fits perfectly into the context. In the book of Matthew we find this passage coming soon after Jesus gave His “blessings” on the mount. It comes just before the six times He says. “You have heard…BUT I say unto you.” In the context it is obvious and evident that Jesus is taking authority to Himself greater than that of old covenant law. It would be very easy for His listeners to conclude that He was completely doing away with the binding nature of the old covenant. This He will do, BUT, not before He completely FULFILLS the prophesies, types and shadows which pointed forward to His work as Messiah and Saviour of the world which are recorded in the law. Therefore, the law must continue UNTIL He has ACCOMPLISHED eveerything. This did in fact happen, as John said, at the death of Jesus.
Now, if one were to conclude that Jesus was teaching the continuing of the law in this passage, the Christian would immediately be faced with a dilemma. For Scripture expressly states that ‘not one thing, not even the smallest punctuation mark, is to be removed from the law. Thus, if the Christian (Sabbatarian) is going to use this text to prove the perpetuity of the old covenant law, he must also use it to prove the binding nature of ALL old covenant law. In the writing to the Galatians, Paul warned his readers that tey could NOT take only part of the law and leave the rest. Hear Paul, and man versed in the Law, second only to Jesus.
“I testify again to every man who received circumcision, that he is UNDER OBLIGATION to KEEP the WHOLE LAW.” (Gal 5:3)
Circumcision, Sabbath keeping, etc, etc, was all part of what Jesus DID, in order to completely FULFILL the Law and the Prophets, perfectly, so that the New Testament Church is not required to keep the Sabbath, as any requirement, in order not to take the so-called Mark of the Beast, ‘Sunday’ worship, as our Sabbatarian friends have insisted.
A vitally important word as Jesus used in Matthew 5_ 17-19, is to ‘FULFILL.’
As we can only understand “I did not come to abolish” contrasted with ‘But to FULFILL’ which in fact He did do, thereby, rendering any and all Old Testament legal law requirement, as FINALLY, and completely fulfiled by The Lord Jesus Christ, once and for all.
And this is made abundantly clear by the meaning of the Greek word, that the Holy Spirit used in recording God’s Word in the NT.
Fulfill is from the Gk ‘pleroo’ meaning, ‘Full, to make full, fill, to fulfill, bring to a full end, accomplish, complete. By implication, to fill out, complete, make perfect, accomplish and end. ( Matt 5:17; Phil 2:2; 2 Thess 1:1). In the passive, to be made full, complete (Luke 22:16; John 3:29; 15:11; 16:24; 17:3; 2 Cor. 10:6; I John 1:4; 2 John 1:12; Rev. 3:2). Of persons (Col 4:12).
The above is just scratching the surface of this subject matter.
Hog Squeal // May 27, 2009 at 12:33 PM
The question is – why is it that each time the DLP is in office – crime increases, so too hunger, economic pain and sufferring, domestic violence, and a lowering of the bar, as it relates to a moral minimum?
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 1:20 PM
@JJ
Re Well, both your suspicions are correct
Indeed, some of us can spot the googly from the time it leaves the hand, and again when it hits the pitch!
Re
THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY.
JJ you disappoint me. After a reasonable start you have descended to the depths only seen on this forum by a certain joker to whom I no longer respond.
Please don’t insult our intelligence with your denominational dogma.
How can the COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY be a MARK that is 666 and placed on the forehead of the right hand of folk in the tribulation period.
Please make sense! May I remind you we are not men talking nonsense in a rum shop, or the men that talk in like manner when they congregate on my father’s porch after matins or mass every Sunday!
Re WHAT IS SIN?
Sin is defined thus explicitly in Scriptures such as
1- 1 John 5: 17 All unrighteousness is sin.
2- missing the mark or coming short as in Romans 3: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (See the Greek)
3- James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, THAT IS SIN!
4- Romans 14:23b for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Please dont come with junk about NOT keeping the Sabbath!, or NOT KEEPING THE LAW OF MOSES OR THOSE PARTS OF THE LAW YOUR DENOMINATIONAL DOGMA PRESCRIBES.
Hog Squeal // May 27, 2009 at 1:27 PM
This first term of David Thompson is looking a lot like the last term of Erskine Sandiford but this country cannot take another four years of 8%-cut-Sandi.
Between 1991 and 1994 when Erskine Sandiford ran the Barbados economy into the ground, he turned to David Thompson and made him Minister of Finance.
Now that Thompson has triggered a meltdown of the Barbados economy, he turns to Sandiford, to who he is a going to sub-let the economy leadership of the Barbados economy, for the next four years.
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 1:42 PM
JJ
Not only is your definition of the mark of the beast unscriptural and unsensible, but your answer reveals that you have taken the text about what the mark as mentioned in Revelation far out of context.
Such denominational dogma and diatribe not supported by Scriptures properly divided in thier context will be severely dealt with on this thread.
So take fresh gaurd and exegete correctly.
Please understand that blog members expect the WORD TO BE CORRECTLY DIVIDED, and that TEXT BE QUOTED & DEALT WITH WITHIN THIER CONTEXTS.
To begin with please explain and exegete Galatians 3: 24-25, even though this has nothing to do with the mark of the beast.
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 2:24 PM
RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 1
As we develop the teaching on the antichrist further, we will exegete the first 12 verses of 2 Thessalonians 2 .
Today I listened to Adrian Rogers preach on this subject .Here is his amazing outline
1- THE MOCKERY OF GOD IS RECOUNTED v 3
2- THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY IS RESTRAINED v 6
3- THE MINISTRY OF THE SPIRIT WILL BE REMOVED (verse 6&7)
4- THE MASTERY OF SATAN IS RELEASED v 7
5 THE MISERY OF MAN IS REDOUBLED v 11-12
6 THE MAJESTY OF THE SAVIOR IS REVEALED v 8
You can listen at
http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Love_Worth_Finding/archives.asp?bcd=12/11/2008
The events discussed in 2 Thessalonians2 are:-
1] The rapture of the church (verse 1)
2] The day of the Lord (verse 2)
3] The falling away or apostasy (verse3)
4] The revelation of the man of sin or Antichrist or Man of lawlessness (verses 3, 4,& 8)
5] The removal of the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit from the world (verse 6&7)
6] The working of signs, power, lying wonders &deceit by the Man of Sin or Antichrist
7] The delusion and damnation of the unbelievers.
The context of II Thessalonians Chapter 2 was a doctrinal error that had crept into the Thessalonian church that Paul had to correct in order to stabilize the church.
This was juxtaposed to the fact that the Thessalonian Christians were suffering great persecution, and some of them had begun to think that they were passing through “the great tribulation” of which Christ spoke as the terrible time which should precede His coming and that the day of the Lord was already present.
They were disturbed about the time of the Lord’s coming and were entertaining wrong views as to the nearness of His return. This was unsettling their lives. The reason for this was that a forged letter and report, both supposed to have come from the apostle Paul, had confused the church and added fuel to the fire. (2 Thess.2:2)
In verses 1-2 Paul introduced his teaching by urging his readers not to be shaken from their adherence to the truth he had taught them about the Rapture in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 by what they were now hearing from others, who were telling them that the day of the Lord or the Tribulation had already begun (v. 2).
.
This seemed to be a distinct possibility to the Thessalonians, who were experiencing intense persecution for their faith. Since they knew from the Old Testament scriptures, that the Tribulation period would be a time of tribulation as well as blessing, this new teaching seemed feasible.
For a common phenomenon among believers who believe in the imminent end of the age it sometimes happens that people’s expectations exceed their patience.
Many people throughout church history have confused the teaching of the apostles that Christ COULD come at any moment (for believers at the Rapture) and the unbiblical idea that He WOULD come at any moment. The first correct view is the doctrine of imminence, but the second incorrect view involves date setting, and is contravention to the Lords teaching in the Olivet Discourse
The Lord’s coming at the rapture, will be “sudden” but sudden does not necessarily mean “immediate.” The scriptures teach that we are to wait anxiously for this time when the Lord will gather His children to Himself. Christ tells us always to be ready. The “day of the Lord” is “at hand” but it will not come until certain things take place. God always follows a program.
The coming again of Christ to the earth is the great future event that the Church has looked forward to since Christ ascended from the Mount of Olives and the two men in white apparel said that this same Jesus would so come in like manner as He went into heaven. (See Acts 1:11.)
Because of its greatness it has overshadowed all other events. It is “at hand” because it looms so big. In his three week stay with them, Paul had taught the Thessalonian Christians much about the Lord’s coming. He had obviously taught them other truths, but all other things fell into insignificance in proportion to its grandeur and importance.
This is a picture of Christ’s coming again in glory. It has loomed big on the horizon of every Christian’s life since the early Church. it is the “blessed hope” of the Church. His coming is “at hand” because it is the greatest future event, but it may not be immediate because God must finish His plan before Christ comes.
..
The false message making the rounds in Thessalonica seems to have gained a hearing also because it came from several different sources.
Paul referred to alleged prophetic
revelation, the teaching of other recognized authorities, and a letter Paul had supposedly written that had arrived in Thessalonica (cf. 3:17).
Their concern was “If the day of the Lord had begun, how could Paul say the Lord’s return for his own at the Rapture would precede that day (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9), when Paul had himself taught them that the rapture was a pretribulation event.”
The supposed doctrinal difficulty lies in the failure to distinguish between parousia [appearing] and the day of the Lord.
The advocates of the false teaching at
Thessalonica conceived that the day of the Lord was not merely ‘at hand,’ which was true (Ro 13:12), but actually ‘present,’ which Paul denied, since such a view denied the believer the hope of the imminent rapture.
The subject of verses 1-12 is “the day of the Lord” (v. 2). This day, as the Old Testament and the New Testament refer to it, includes the Tribulation, the second phase of the Second Coming, the Millennium, and the great white throne judgment (cf. Ps. 2:9; Isa. 11:1-12; 13; Joel 2; Amos 5:18; Zeph. 3:14-20; et al.).
It is important to note that the Rapture is a church event whereas the day of the Lord is an Israel event, and the beginning of that day resumes Daniel’s seventy weeks. The seventieth week begins when the Antichrist signs a covenant with Israel allowing the Jews to return to their land (Dan. 9:27).
While the term parousia is broad and refers to the Rapture and to many events that follow it, the term “the day of the Lord” seems more narrowly defined in Scripture and
nowhere specifically includes the Rapture.
“The great contrast of attitudes toward the beginning judgment phase of the Day of the Lord and the Rapture [in these verses] is another indicator that the Rapture is not the
beginning or any part of the Day of the Lord. Rather, it will be a separate event. Therefore, Paul’s reference to the Day of the Lord in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is not a reference to the Rapture.”
Paul thus warns the Thessalonians, and us, against confusing the hope of Christ’s coming for His Church (phase one of the second coming or the rapture or parousia), with the day of the Lord’s judgment.
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 2:29 PM
RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 2
Paul tells them not to panic but hold on to what they had been taught on the issue by him, as well as what Jesus had taught in the Olivet discourse.( Matt 24, Mark 13).
In verse 15 Paul told them to be stablished and comforted by the word and doctrine which they had been taught. Paul then reassured them beginning in verse 3 that that the day of the Lord or the tribulation ( not the rapture) had not come by teaching them that three events had to take place before the judgments of the day of the Lord could begin.
These were
1-the apostasy or “falling away” (v. 3),
2- the unveiling of the man of sin or the man of lawlessness (vv. 3-4, 8), i.e the rise of antichrist
and 3- the removal of the restraint of lawlessness (i.e the Holy Spirit) at the Rapture (vv. 6-7).
They were to understand that the persecution which they were experiencing was not the tribulation. After all he had already taught them the comforting truths of I Thes 4:13-17; & 1Thess 5:9-10 that the church would not go through the tribulation.
Paul then presented these in logical rather than chronological order in this passage. The word “first” refers primarily to the fact that the apostasy will occur at the very beginning of the day of the Lord, and before the revelation of the man of sin.
One of the major events that will precede the tribulation period or the day of the Lord is the “apostasy” (v. 3, lit. the falling away). The English word “apostasy” is a transliteration of the Greek word apostasia. By definition an apostasy is a departure, an abandoning of a position formerly held (cf. Josh. 22:22 LXX; Acts 21:21).
“In classical Greek the word apostasia denoted a political or military rebellion; but in the Greek Old Testament we find it used of rebellion against God (e.g. Jos. 22:22), and this becomes the accepted Biblical usage (following what is called the law of first mention
By “apostasy” or “falling away” in 2 Thes 2:3 , Paul is saying that in the last times there will be an outstanding manifestation of the powers of evil arrayed against God.
It seems that Paul referred here to a dramatic and climactic falling away from the worship of the true God (by both Jews and some portion of the professing but not genuine Christian church) as a part of the complex of events at the end of the age such as is predicted also in passages like 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; James 5:1-8; 2 Pet. 2; 3:3-6; Jude which all warn of a departure from the faith before the Rapture.
Such a departure had begun in Paul’s day (1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; James 5:1-8; 2 Pet. 2; 3:3-6; Jude). But it had not yet reached the proportions predicted to characterize “the apostasy” about which Paul had instructed his readers when he was with them (cf. v. 5).
When the Rapture takes place and all true Christians leave the earth, this apostasy will overwhelm the human race.
This worldwide anti-God movement has already begun, and will be so universal as to earn for itself a special designation: ‘the apostasy’— i.e., the climax of the increasing apostate tendencies evident before the rapture of the church. It seems to include a general
abandonment of the basis of civil order and a large scale revolt against public order.
Since public order is maintained by the ‘governing authorities’ who ‘have been instituted by God,’ any assault on it is an assault on a divine ordinance (Rom 13:1, 2). In fact, the whole concept of divine authority over the world that is set at defiance in ‘the
rebellion’ par excellence, that is here denoted by the apostasy.
There is already a great falling away from the faith as predicted by 2 Thessalonians 2 and Luke 18 in the day in which we are living. People are leaving the faith which was once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3), and denying the Lord that bought them with His own precious blood (II Peter 2:1 ), and crucifying the Lord afresh, and putting Him to shame (Heb. 6:6).
The world acknowledges Christ to be a teacher, but not the Saviour. Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many is waxing cold. (Matt. 24:12) These are indeed perilous times, and scoffers have arisen to scoff at the idea of Christ’s coming, as predicted I 2 Peter 3:3
.
The falling away, or apostasia has as its root word, the meaning removal or departure. There are two kinds of removing that will take place. First the organized church will depart from the faith- they will apostasize, as is very apparent today.
However, the total apostasy that must occur before the Lord comes at his ephiphany, will occur only after the true church is removed at the rapture.
We know that the church will be apostate when the Lord comes, because of the tenor and tone of the rhetorical question he posed in Luke 18:8 when he asked, “When the Son of man cometh [ to the earth ] will he find [ the ] faith? That is will he find the body of truth which he left here?
The answer is NO! He will not find the faith here when he returns because 1] the organized church or Christendom has departed from the faith – it has apostasized and 2] there has been another departure in that the true church is no longer on earth, for it has departed at the rapture.
The rapture of the true Church then, leads to the total apostasizing of the organized church. Paul makes it very clear that the day of the Lord can not begin, nor the great tribulation occur, until the departure of the true church has taken place.
We are now living in the time of the apostasy because a great number of churches in many countries now deny that the Bible is without error and that it is divinely inspired.
They also deny the deity of Christ, that sin exists, that there will be a judgment, that redemption is by the blood of Christ, and many other truths of the Bible. Since we are now living in the time of the apostasy, we know that the rapture of the church could take place very soon.
The total departure from the faith of the organized church which is left on the earth after the rapture is pictured in Revelation 17 as the great harlot.
The Laodicean church which is the seventh and last church described in the book of Revelation is well depicted by the current period of Church History.
The present state of the church is a sad one, but when the true church is gone, it will get even worse and end finally in total apostasy.
Note the apostasy does not involve true born again believers. The people who Paul has in view here as apostasising are the non-genuine Christians who compose Christendom. “Christendom” refers to all professing Christians, genuine and non-genuine.
Note also that though some folk believe that the “apostasy” is a reference to the Rapture, and find support for their view in Paul’s reference to the Rapture in verse 1, proper division of the Word indicates that nowhere else does the Scripture speak of the rapture as ‘the departure.’
A departure denotes an act on the part of the individual or company departing. But the rapture is not an act of departure on the part of the saints. In the rapture the church is passive, not active.
At the rapture the church is ‘caught up’ or ’snatched away,’ an event wherein the Lord acts to transport believers from earth into His presence (1 Thess. 4:16-17). Everything that takes place with the believers at the rapture is initiated by the Lord and done by
Him.
Paul has just referred to the rapture as ‘our gathering together unto him’ (v. 1); why then should he now use this unlikely term “the apostasy,” to mean the same thing?
Another major event, in addition to “the apostasy,” is the unveiling of “the
man of lawlessness” (v. 3), or the rise of AntiChrist. This is a person yet to appear who will be completely lawless and whom God will doom to everlasting destruction.
The prophet Daniel spoke of such a person. He will make a covenant with the Jews but then break it after three and a half years (Dan. 9:27). The breaking of that covenant seems to be the event that unmasks this individual for who he is, as the opponent of Christ.
He will eventually seek to make everyone worship himself and will claim to be God (cf. Rev. 13:5-8). The reference to him taking his seat in the temple of God (v. 4) may be figurative representing him as taking the highest position possible. More likely it is literal in which case the material temple of God that will be rebuilt stand in Jerusalem during the second half, at least, of the Tribulation is in view (cf. Dan. 11:36). This person, the Antichrist, had not yet appeared when Paul wrote, nor has he appeared yet (cf. 1 John 2:18).
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 2:33 PM
RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 3
In verse 5 Paul reminded the Thessalonians that he had told them of these things when he was with them. Since Paul was seemingly only in Thessalonica for about three weeks this reference is very significant, and indicates that Paul did not regard prophecy as too deep or unimportant or controversial for even new Christians.
Many Christians today play down the importance of this part of God’s revelation. But Paul believed prophetic truth was a vital part of the whole counsel of God essential to victorious Christian living. Consequently he taught it without hesitation or apology. So should we. So I don’t apologize for doing so!
Paul continued his instruction concerning the events that must take place at the beginning of the day of the Lord by stressing the absolute lawlessness that will characterize that period.
His purpose was to explain more clearly that his readers had not missed the Rapture and had not entered into the day of the Lord, since this absolute lawlessness was not yet in evidence
.
When he was with them Paul had apparently taught the Thessalonians that the Holy Spirit was restraining the unveiling of the man of lawlessness (i.e., Antichrist, v. 3; cf. 1 John 2:18).
Although Paul did not restate the identity of the restrainer here in verse 5-7, the Holy Spirit is the restraining influence in view.
The Holy Spirit accomplishes His ministry of restraining lawlessness in the world mainly through the influence of Christians whom He indwells, specifically through gospel preaching.
One of the distinctive features of the dispensation of grace in contrast to prior periods is the fact that the Holy Spirit indwells everyone who is regenerated.
In the coming period of the kingdom on earth this divine blessing will also be a prominent feature and everyone who is saved will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
There is little evidence that believers will be indwelt by the Spirit during the tribulation. The possibility of a universal indwelling of all believers in the tribulation is opposed by the revelation of 2 Thessalonians 2:7, that the one restraining the world from sin, i.e., the Holy Spirit, will be ‘taken out of the way’ during the tribulation.
Unrestrained evil characterizes the tribulation, though the lack of restraint is not total (cf. Rev. 7:2; 12:6, 14-16).
The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in the saints in itself would contribute to the restraint of sin, and it, therefore, is taken away.
The tribulation period, also, seems to revert back to Old Testament conditions in several ways; and in
the Old Testament period, saints were never permanently indwelt, although in isolated instances, instances of the filling of the Spirit and of empowerment for service are found. Taking all the factors into consideration, there is no evidence for the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in believers in the tribulation.
The second thing which must happen, is that the man of sin, or the son of perdition or the antichrist or the “Lawless One” must be revealed. –He will be revealed before Christ appears to the world at the epiphanea.
But not until the Lord has caught up His own at the parousia or rapture will the lawless one come into public view. (2:8) This “lawless one” is described in 2:4. He will oppose God; he has the title “Antichrist.”
When the Holy Spirit is taken away the “Man of Sin” will open his awful campaign against the Lord. When Christ comes, He will find Antichrist ruling with all power and signs and lying wonders. It will be a time marked with strong delusions. This is Paul’s prediction of the Antichrist.
“The sin of man has its final outcome in the Man of Sin.” Read Matthew 24:24. He will be destroyed by Christ.
This man is most likely living today. He will deceive the world, and will even claim to be God, and will put the Roman empire back together again.
The formation of the European common market is a good indicator that this process has started to happen and that time is running out! This is so because this grouping of nations occupy the same land area occupied by the Roman empire (the feet and toes of the image of Daniel 2).
With respect to how close we are to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter, it is so far very clear that the escalating apostasy in Christendom and the formation of the European common market are issues which point towards the second advent of the Lord.
Remember there are no Biblical indicators to the onset of the rapture mentioned in the first two verses of this chapter, since the scriptures make it quite clear that no one knows when this will happen.
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 2:38 PM
RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 4
The “mystery” (truth previously not revealed but now made known) Paul referred to in verse 7 is the revelation of a future climax of lawlessness that would follow the removal of the restrainer.
This lawless movement was already underway in Paul’s day, but God was holding it back until His appointed time.
God will remove the restraining influence at the Rapture when God’s restraint of evil through His people will end as He removes them from the earth. God will remove the Holy Spirit from the earth in the sense that God will remove those whom He indwells and He with them. He will not entirely abandon the earth, of course, since God is omnipresent.
Since the removal of the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) takes place before the manifestation of the lawless one, this identification implies a pretribulational rapture. (Not all agree with this timing) but I do.
After the Rapture the lawless one will have greater freedom, and he will do things that will eventually result in his being identified as the Antichrist.
However the mere breath of the Lord Jesus’ mouth will slay him when Christ comes with His saints at the second phase of the Second Coming (1:10).
The Lord’s “appearance” in verse 10 (Gr. epiphaneia) is a different and later event in His “coming” (Gr. parousia) than the “gathering” (Gr. episynagoges) event (v. 1). The first event is the Rapture, and the second is the Second Coming.
In verse 7 Paul teaches that the mystery of lawlessness is already in evidence- it is already working, it was so in Paul’s time. We can see that lawlessness is continuing and getting worse and worse.
Previously inconceivable things have become common place. Yes, wickedness is already at work, but it could be worse, but the Holy Spirit at present restrains it somewhat.
It is not worse because the Holy Spirit will not let Satan do his worse in the current period which we call the age of grace or the church period.
However, when the Holy Spirit, the restrainer is removed it will be as if a cork, or stopper, or lid was removed from a container— the liquid of lawlessness will pour out all over the world in that day. When He is removed the wickedness incarnate in the Man of Sin will appear.
The events of our current generation suggests that it is time for lawlessness to become rampant. It is as if the lid of the Holy Spirit is about to pop out from the bottle of the corruption of this world.
The events of our current generation suggests too, that we are very close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter. We can say this on the basis of the clear teaching of the word in 2Timothy 3:1-8.
In this very important portion of scripture, Paul sounded a warning to Timothy about the times and characteristics of those living in the “last days”. We know that the “last days” began with the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and continue on to the present time.
We know too that this period of time will end at the second coming of the Lord, and that God will complete his purpose for his people during this time. Paul predicted that in the “last days” there would be “terrible times” as the age draws to a close and that the days would become more dangerous and savage.
These characteristics began to appear during Paul’s day and have continued to increase. It appears that evil is stronger and more accepted in all societies. It is not in one place, or country but all societies all over the world are affected.
The characteristics which Paul describes in 2 Timothy 3:1-8 are prevalent all over the world in people in all walks of life-without exception , and regardless to colour, class or, creed because of the moral collapse of mankind..
Here are the characteristics of man in these last days listed in 2 Timothy 3verses 2–5: People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—having a form of godliness but denying its power.
Notice the word love at the beginning of verse two and love at the end of verse four. It is not a love for God. It is not a love for family. It is not a love for neighbor. It is a love for self and his own pleasure. When this is true all the characteristics in between fall into place.
These may be categorized as: A person who loves himself will be boastful, proud, abusive, ungrateful, conceited, without self-control, lover of money. In regard to family he is disobedient to parents, without love, unforgiving.
In regard to his neighbor he is brutal, treacherous, rash, not a lover of good . In regard to God he is ungrateful, unholy, loves pleasure rather than God, has a form of godliness but denies its power.
The characteristics listed in this passage are the exact ones which are prevalent today in the world and increasingly so; and more so than at any time previously.
This behavior makes it very easy to conclude that we are now very close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter. The tendency to scoff at the idea of the second coming and scriptural truths and for men to follow their own evil desires as predicted in 2 Pet 3:3 , is also cause for concern.
God’s command to love is found in Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hand on these two commandments.” Man has turned away from that command. It is interesting that this is not something new but that it was from the beginning.
Paul writes in Romans 1:29-31, “Furthermore, since they did not think it worth while to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.” The list is very similar.” .
These are other passages which describe accurately the behaviour of the people of our times which cause us to be sure that that we are now very close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter.
In addition, the increasing prevalence of false teachers (among so-called religious leaders who have a form of godliness but deny its power, and who both they twist and resist the truth of God’s Word, and who prey on the weak ; especially weak willed women whom they deceive just as Satan deceived Eve) make as sure that we are now very close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter.
“It is plain to see that during “the last days” dangerous times will arise. It is not only evident in the world but it is evident in the church. Yes, inside the church, the body of those who profess to be believers, there are men of immoral character and conduct. They are outwardly religious. They are lovers of self rather than God. They are morally, religiously and intellectually perverse.
It seems hard to believe that there could be a moving away from the biblical standards of truth and righteousness but this has crept into the church.” The scriptures so adequately describes our times that it makes us confident that the end of the age is imminent.
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 2:41 PM
RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 5
Verses 9-10 indicates that Antichrist or The lawless one will be Satan’s instrument. Satan will empower him to deceive many people into thinking he is God by doing awe-inspiring, powerful miracles (cf. Rev. 13:2-4; 17:8). Scripture also calls him the beast coming out of the sea (Rev. 13:1-10), the scarlet beast (Rev. 17:3), and simply the beast (Rev. 17:8, 16; 19:19-20; 20:10).
In this verse Paul uses the word parousia here in verse 8 for the revelation or coming of Antichrist as a parody of Christ’s Parousia. Here he is sort of mocking the Antichrist who as a counterfeit Christ has an “advent” or revelation also as he seeks to mimic Christ!
Satan’s power, signs, wonders, and evil deception (vv. 9-10) will impress all people living on the earth during the Tribulation. Paul could say that those people do not receive “the love of the truth so as to be saved” (v. 10) and they “did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness” (v. 12).
He could do so since these phrases describe all unbelievers, not just those who hear the gospel and willfully rejected it before the Rapture (cf. John 3:19, Rom. 1:24-32).
By ‘the lie [or "what is false"]‘ is apparently meant the denial of the fundamental truth that God is God; it is the rejection of his self-revelation as Creator and Savior, righteous and merciful Judge of all, which leads to the worship due to him alone being offered to another, such as the ‘man of lawlessness.
It is a solemn but true thought that when men begin by rejecting the good they inevitably end by forwarding and following evil.
After the rapture, when the Holy Spirit departs with the true church, there will be nothing left to hold back the wickedness of men. Then there will be an awful revelation of the real sin in the world, when there is no hindering by good men and women. Then the sin of man will appear in the Man of Sin, or “that wicked one” whom we call the Antichrist. His coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. (2:8,9) He will perform deceiving miracles. He will delude those who have never received Christ or loved the truth. ( 2:11)
The Man of Sin is the same as the Antichrist spoken of by Daniel the prophet, and by the Lord in Matthew 24:23,24. In Revelation 13:1 John tells about him also.
The Antichrist is a counterfeit Christ. Satan in a last desperate effort will try to imitate Christ. The world would not have God’s Man; now they must have Satan’s man. He will have supernatural powers; perhaps he will be quite a healer and miracle worker.
Already in our day and in religious circles we see people who are very interested in signs and lying wonders and those who perform them.
The world is in my view being subtly prepared for accepting antichrist’s lying wonders by watching certain religious jokers on television networks which pretend to be dedicated to the spread of the gospel.
We ought always to be afraid of miracle workers and miracle healers because the next miracle worker predicted by the Bible is the one who is under Satan’s influence…
The fact that they are a lot of these spurious workers around who are successfully drawing men to themselves rather than to the Lord indicates that the conditions are already being prepared for the delusion discussed in verse 11.
Some interpreters have concluded from these verses 11-12) that no one who has heard the gospel and rejected it before the Rapture will be able to be saved during the Tribulation.
This view rests on taking the antecedents of “them” and “they” as being “those who perish” (v. 10) and interpreting “those who perish” as those who heard but rejected
the gospel before the Rapture. However it seems more likely that verse 10 describes all unbelievers in the Tribulation, not just those who heard and rejected the gospel before the Rapture.
Scriptures such as Rev. 6:9-11; 7:4, 9-17; et al, suggest that thousands of people will place their faith in Jesus Christ during the Tribulation, even though this will only be a small proportion of the entire population.
One might reasonably ask “If Paul wanted to correct the Thessalonians’ erroneous conclusion that they were in the day of the Lord, why did he not just tell them that the Rapture had not yet taken place?
Actually Paul did tell them that the Rapture had not yet taken place by reemphasize the order of events that must occur before this event occurs, while simultaneously stressing the rise of the Antichrist, and the culmination and destruction of lawlessness in the world
Paul’s readers could, therefore, now be confident that the day of the Lord had not yet begun, and that the trials or tribulations that they were experiencing were not at all those of the day of the Lord about which Paul had taught them while he was with them.
They could be absolutely sure of this, because the three prerequisite events he stressed in this chapter had not yet taken place, namely in chronological order
1-the apostasy (v. 3),
2- the removal of the restraint of lawlessness at the Rapture (vv. 6-7), and .
3- the unveiling of the man of lawlessness (vv. 3-4, 8), or the rise of antichrist
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 2:43 PM
RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST continued EXEGESIS OF 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 part 6
Having discussed the issue from the word, we can now give an opinion of the obvious and prevailing signs in our times that suggest that the current era may be the start of the “end”.
Signs in our times that this may be the start of the “end” include the prevalence of devil worship, belief in United Nations and the concept of world wide peace as issues that will solve the problems of the world.
The rapid upsurgence of universal things like globalization, credit cards, computerization of all information systems, bar coding, universal acceptance of certain major currencies etc.
All of these systems were/ are subtly designed by the prince of this world to facilitate the coming of the lawless one. Whereas they are generally accepted, only discerning believers seem to appreciate the truth about them.
It is not hard to see how the antichrist can control who can buy or sell by having a computerized data base about the world’s citizens. The importance of one currency and globalization of trade is an obvious precursor to a one man government.
All ready all bar codes have the number 666 within them. It is not hard to see that one will need a credit card to buy and sell, and that such a card will be issued by a universal central bank controlled by the political dictator of the world the antichrist.
It is not unreasonable to conceive that whereas those who bear the mark of the beast 666 on their foreheads will have in this mark a bar code that will be a fool proof identification of the person, in terms of their sex, colour, creed, height, age, and what ever parameters that may be chosen, in much the same way that to transact any business in the U SA, one’s social security number with its coded information is a must.
This system is not being copied by many of the nations of the world willy nilly. All of these systems and programs are being designed and will be used along will all the modern tele- communication systems currently in vogue ( and those not yet released to the general public) to effect the aims and purposes of the devil. The frightening thing is that only a few people are aware of what is happening, or even care. .
0ne of the ancient counterfeits and one that will be a key note of his last day satanic strategies (a strategy already prominent today) is the belief in one world government which will be portrayed as a utopia and the final hope for mankind. The foundations for such a government is now firmly entrenched with the embracing of globalization.
Any and every one of the divine institutions is being attacked—as predicted in 1 Tim 4:3 we are being told not to marry and to abstain from meat ( i.e be vegetarian). But we were told by God to marry in Genesis 2 and to eat meat in Genesis 9.
God created the confusion of the tongues in Genesis 11 to discourage a one world government. One world government has as its basis a non dependence on God and a seeking on man’s part to solve his problems apart from God.
Speaking in tongues in church is stoutly defended by believers so called, and miracle men are not seen as devilish but of God, especially when the purveyors are clearly not Godly.
In Genesis 11, God instituted nationalism, today man stresses internationalism. We were taught tongues were a sign for a period and specific purpose. Today glossolalia is prominent. For ages women kept quiet in church, today women predominate and preside in churches here there and everywhere.
The Bible teaches capital punishment, today man advocates social rehabilitation. Divorce and re marriage is every where commonplace, and homosexuals are marrying each other.
When the “church” is asked for an answer, the true church is either silent or not influential enough and the false church is definitely not sanctified to give the correct answer, because it really has not the “hope” that Peter talks about or the “faith” for which Jude declares we are to contend.
When Christ returns at the ephiphanea or glorious appearing (verse 8; Titus 2:13), He will find Antichrist (the Man of Sin) carrying out his satanic plans.
From the description of the Man of Sin in the Scriptures and his diabolical role of mighty works and lying wonders, we can see that though he has not been revealed, it will be just as the Bible says it would be.
Indeed, the darkest clouds that are gathering are but harbingers of the golden day that is surely coming, when our Lord Himself shall return to take up the reins of government.
IT IS DEFINITELY TIME TO LOOK FOR THE UPPER-TAKER!!
In addressing the issue of how close we are to the fulfillment of the events spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 , we must first list and briefly discuss these events (as we have done) and state the scriptures that gave us indicators or parameters by which we may judge the onset of these and related events. Then we can confidently say that we are extremely close to the fulfillment of the events of this chapter.
Hog Squeal // May 27, 2009 at 3:26 PM
What needs to be done – is written on the wall in capital letters, yet a weak Prime Minister David Thompson calls old men – who are not well – out of retirement from active politics – to help him run the country.
A serious confession for Mr. Thompson to make – that old man who are not well and have retired from active politics – are times more competent and intellectually sharp, than David Thompson is.
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.
Zoe // May 27, 2009 at 3:37 PM
JJ, If you are in fact a SDA, believing that the SDA church is God’s last-day, true church, or “the remnant church” based primarily on two passages in the book of Revelation, as follows:
“And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the ‘rest’ of her offspring, who keep the ‘commandments of God’ and hold to the ‘testimony of Jesus’ (Rev. 12:17).
And;
“And I fell at his feet to worship him…And he said to me, ‘Do not do that; I am a fellow-servant of yours and your brethren who hold ‘the testominy of Jesus’; worship God…For ‘the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy” (Rev. 19:10) emphasis added.
JJ, what exactly does “Commandments of God” mean here in this context; and, secondly, what does ‘the testimony of Jesus and the spirit of prophesy’ mean?
Georgie Porgie // May 27, 2009 at 6:16 PM
I don’t know which part of the globe that JJ lives, but as I write, I am listening to calls into CNN news calling for attachment of GPS units or micro chips to little children to prevent them from being kidnapped, as there have been an increasing number of kidnapping of little children.
It seems that the technology WILL be applied for simple mundane uses of this kind prior to the Beast’s arrival, because it is happening even now in animals, and it is being called for even today.
Hopi // May 28, 2009 at 10:14 AM
@GP…..Do you have a credit card/s?
Education Czarist, (hahaha)! You really want me to turn little Barbados right side up? Rest assured that I will ensure that every little black girl and boy know that they preceded christianity and that Alexander the ‘Great’ was a marauding, murdering, sadistic brute who played an integral part in the decimation of their Ancestors. And I will also let them know that those who call themselves God’s chosen are NOT. They should not worship them, nor pay homage to them like the christians of today do.They are the enemy of humanity and be very WARY of them. (Just disqualified myself).
Those calls that you were listening to @CNN were calls from the makers of GPS/microchips, those with stock in GPS/microchips, and those who are working for those who want total control. That’s how they get to control ‘US’ through fear!
Georgie Porgie // May 28, 2009 at 10:41 AM
Hopi
Re GP…..Do you have a credit card/s?
Yes. I was one of the first in line in1994 when Mutual Bank started in Barbados. I have several, from both local banks, US banks and two from good old Barclays UK.
Yes Hopi, we have you down for Minister of female affairs & Education about African culture and Black Education
Re You really want me to turn little Barbados right side up?
Yes if that is the right thing to do. LOL
Be careful with all the rest of stuff you put down here, cause we making Zoe Minister responsible for Prisons Police, The Defence Force and the Fire Brigade. So behave your self! Cause he will be ruling with an iron fist!…and his usual no nonsense approach.So behave your self chile!
Re Those calls that you were listening to @CNN were calls from the makers of GPS/microchips, those with stock in GPS/microchips, and those who are working for those who want total control. That’s how they get to control ‘US’ through fear!
You are probably correct there Hopi.. But the point is still made that these folk plan to have the nation(s) hook up to these things within the next 10 years ( and in time for the Rise of the AntiChrist and the Mark of the Beast)
Zoe // May 28, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Dead Sea Scrolls.
The designation popularly given to manuscripts discovered since 1947 in the area west of the Dead Sea.
The most important manuscripts are those found in eleven caves overlooking the Waidi Qumran, apparently the remnants of the library of a religious community which had its headquarters at Khirbet Qumran between ca. 145 B.C. and A.D. 68 ( with a break of thirty years ca. 34-4 B.C).
The Qumran library , of which over four hundred documents have been identified, most in very fragmentary condition, included biblical and nonbiblical texts. About a hundred out of the four hundred are biblical text. All the Old Testament books except Ester are represented, some of them several times over. These biblical manuscripts date from the closing centuries B.C. and the first century A.D. They attest at least three distinct textual traditions of Hebrew Scripture, not only the text (preserved Babylonia) which underlies the later Massoretic recension, but also the text (of Egyptian provenance) underlying the Septuagint and a text (native Palestine) akin to the Samaritan Pentateuch. The discovery of these manuscripts has reduced the gap separating the autographs from the oldest extant copies by about a thousand years, and is of great importance for the textual history of the OT. In addition to copies of the type of Hebrew text used by the Septuagint translators, pieces of their actual Greek translation have also been identified.
Georgie Porgie // May 28, 2009 at 10:52 AM
Thanks Zoe,
Can you possibly expand on the significance of the finding of the scrolls, and thier role in establishing the authenticity of the OT and its contibution to Canonicity?
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Dear Zoe and Georgie Porgie,
Good to see you both busy with the replies. Please bear with me as I defend my position. I’m not the world’s fastest typer!
Georgie Porgie, you wrote…
QUOTE: “On the basis of Paul’s teaching that the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven before the judgements start.”
You are automatically assuming that since the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven. Let me show you your error.
Daniel 12:1 “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.”
Jeremiah 30:7 “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.”
Jesus promises to “keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10) He also promised to be “with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matt 28:20)
Truth is, spiritual Israel WILL BE PRESENT on earth when the four winds are being loosed. They will be sealed so they are not hurt BUT that doesn’t mean they’ll not be there! The passage above says we are saved OUT of the “time of Jacob’s trouble,” not FROM it! Even Christ asked His Father when he was in prayer in John 17 that we should NOT be “taken from the world” but kept “from the evil” in it (see John 17:15).
Was not the Seed of Abraham present during the 10 plagues in Egypt when Pharaoh was ignoring the warnings of God through Moses???
The Israelites were spared because they were believers! But they were very much present when the plagues fell! Are we any different today?
Just as the Lord spared the Old Testament Hebrews by causing the destroying angel to “pass over” the houses of the believers so the plague would not harm them, He also plans to spare us!
Exodus 12:13 “And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.”
Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
Psalms 91:10, “There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.”
The Lord protected His own in the Old Testament by the blood of the lamb sacrifice, and He promises to protect us New Testament believers by the “…the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) Both sets of believers show their faith by the blood of Christ, do they not? The Old Testament believers trusted God by a show of faith by placing the blood of a lamb upon the doorposts of their houses, we have the Blood of the Lamb upon the doorposts of the heart. Also notice that in Psalms 91:10 it specifically states no plague will come near our dwellings. If we are supposed to have been raptured up before the plagues hit, why is the Word so plainly stating it doesn’t come near our dwellings?
The obedient true child of God is indeed NOT subject to the wrath of God! So WHO IS the subject of God’s wrath?
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of DISOBEDIENCE.
Col 3:6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of DISOBEDIENCE:
If we are not present during all the time of trouble, please explain these verses:
Psa.27.5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Psa.37.39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
Matt.10.17-22 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matt 24:9-14 “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matt.24.22-27 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luke 21:28 When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh..
John.16.33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Acts.14.22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
2 Thes 2:9 “Even him, whose coming is AFTER the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,”
Rev.1.7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
Rev.7.14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Again Geogie Porgie, you wrote…
QUOTE: “Now I know that some folk differ with respect to WHEN the saints are raptured, and some believe that there is no rapture at all!
You state that the saints go to heaven AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, and not before but you seem not to know, or understand or believe that the second coming involves two phases, as the Scriptures clearly teach.. In one phase (the rapture or parousia) the Lord meets the saints in the air in a secret coming; in the second phase ( the epiphanea or glorious appearing) he comes down to earth to win the battle of Armageddon, and every eye shall see Him.
You state that In terms of Revelation, this ascent of the saints is placed whenever the second coming is spoken about. This is found throughout the book. A specific reference would be Revelation 11:12. My friend you have left out the details man. Note that the second phase of the second coming is well described throughout the OT. The first phase or rapture or parousia is referred to by Paul in I Cor 15 as a MYSTERY. That is it is a truth that had never before revealed in the Bible.
You need to forget your denominational dogma, and with an open mind read the Bible (perhaps with the help of a Systematic Theology where all the Scriptures on the doctrine are extracted and laid bare) and find ALL the references to the parousia as set out in the NT. You will find that you might learn a lot. I found that I learned many things and re- learned many things when I read the Word for myself or good commentaries that set out the various positions on a controversial issue, and discusses them in the light of all the relevant scriptures! TRY IT SOMETIME.”
Funny you tell me to forget my “denominational dogma.” Why? Because I grew up believing what you believe but after searching the Scriptures and the pages of history, I’ve come to realize that your position and my former views were incorrect. There is not a single person where I live who believes in the truths I advocate. My beliefs do not stem from any form of denominational indoctrination. But what’s really interesting is that your belief is very prevalent among many Protestant churches today! I don’t know your past circumstances, but I know that certainly the trend is strong among many present day scholars and ministers and lay students of the Word, that a pre-trib rapture / futurism end time scenario must be true. Where does such a trend come from?
Have a little look at history, starting with the Protestant Reformation. I won’t give you any detailed references here because of time and space, but they aren’t difficult to obtain. Go to any library or read any history book. Here’s the relevant summary:
- There are two great truths that stand out in the preaching that brought about the Protestant Reformation – The just shall live by faith, not by the works AND that the Papacy / Roman Catholic church power is the Antichrist of Scripture. It was a message for Christ and against Antichrist. The entire Reformation rests upon this twofold testimony. (Note: there are now various lines of thinking within this interpretation but they can all be categorized under the term HISTORICISM – the belief that the Biblical prophecies about the little horn, the man of sin, the antichrist, the Beast and the Babylonian Harlot of Rev 17, all apply to the developing history of Christianity culminating at the end of time. This system of belief sees the prophecies as having a direct application to Papal Rome AS A SYSTEM whose doctrines are counter those set forth by the Scriptures.)
- The Catholic church persecuted these reformers by labelling them as heretics to be cursed and imprisoned and tortured and killed.
- But as the Scriptural truths become more and more widely available, the Catholic church realized she needed another plan in holding non-conformists in check. The result: the Counter-reformation.
- 1545 – Council of Trent. The Catholic church commissioned Jesuit priests to come up with counter-interpretations of the prophetic portions of Scriptures.
- Two Jesuits especially surfaced with the most believable alternative interpretations resulting in two major classes of eschatologies.
- One school of interpretation came from Jesuit Luis De Alcazar. He put forth the view that the majority of the prophecies have already been fulfilled and have no significance for the future. Nero is identified as the antichrist. There are various lines of thinking within this interpretation but they can all be categorized under the term PRETERISM.
- But the one we’re interested in is the other theory devised by Jesuit Priest Francisco Ribera who applied all the prophecies to the end of time and applied the antichrist to a single individual. History records that Italian Cardinal Robert Bellarmine then further published Ribera’s interpretation. Then, Dr Samuel Maitland and John Newman of the Chuch of England followed by Presbyterian minister Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby who established the Plymouth Brethren all one by one adopted this theory. Then Scofield latched onto it as well and placed it in the margins of his Scofield Reference Bible. The Moody Bible Institute and the Dallas Theological Seminary then followed suite. Hal Lindsey graduated from the latter. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins then produced their ‘Left Behind’ saga. Once again, there are various lines of thinking within this interpretation but they can all be categorized under the term FUTURISM. Fact remains though – this ‘futurist’ school of Bible prophecy was originally created for one reason, and one reason only – to COUNTER THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION! It is this school of interpretation that you, my friend, along with millions of protestants today have fallen for.
I’m not spewing some kind of denominational theory! This is HISTORY. The history and source of your belief and the history and source of mine. The different ideas we’re BOTH bringing forth on this blog are not new. They have definite ORIGINS. And they have been proclaimed for ages past. Now you know the story of where exactly they come from. See for yourself if this is not true!
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:06 PM
QUOTE: “I look forward to your opinion or denominational dogma.
As I discerned it is clear that you don’t believe in the rapture. I assure you that the literal tons of verses and passages that demonstrate this to be a farce, ought to be hilarious spouting of denominational dogma.”
You can label anything you like as ‘denominational dogma.’ And so can I. It’s like a game that goes around in circles. So if you’re happy, then let’s study some of this ‘denominational dogma’. . .
RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #1
2 Pet 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Here we see the Word of God declaring the day of the Lord will not only come unexpectedly, it will come with a GREAT NOISE! Does that sound like a secret? How is it possible to hide the fact that the earth, it’s elements, and all the “works” of man upon the earth are burned up on that day? Even if millions of Christians vanish into thin air as some preach, the convulsing and burning planet as well as the great noise all this is going to make will no doubt enlighten the wicked that something out of this world is happening, wouldn’t you think? How do you destroy the earth and all it’s cities without the wicked knowing it?
Right in context with the above verse is the following…
2 Pet 3:11-14 “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”
This passage places our Lord’s arrival and the Earth’s destruction at the exact same time. Plus, we see that we are to be “Looking for” the day of God as well! We are not looking for an initial secret parousia followed by a great glorious epiphanea. There is no dividing of events, no two phases. It is all ONE day! One event!
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:06 PM
RATURE DECEPTION – PROOF #2
Luke 17:22 -27 “And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.”
Just like in Noah’s time? Did Jesus lie when He said…”So shall it be…”? Don’t these verses seem a bit obvious?
The ones in the ark were saved.
The ones that decided to ignore the warnings of Noah were destroyed. And they were destroyed UNEXPECTEDLY! For it says they “did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark..”
Also notice it speaks of “…lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven” in that passage. I understand that even a blind man can see the light emanating from lightning. This passage is speaking of the brightest natural occurrence of light on planet earth shining from one end of the earth to the other on that day. How I ask can that be done in secret?
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:06 PM
RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #3
Luke 17:28,29 “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ”
“Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot?”… Let me ask you this… If Jesus was planning on two phases to His return, why would He tell us His return would be as it was in the days of Lot? Why would Jesus compare an event in Genesis chapter 19 that shows Lot being led out of the city to safety, and then the city is destroyed, that very same day? Think about it… Jesus has just compared His second coming with two events in Biblical history in which both events show people being saved from certain destruction, and people being certainly destroyed together ON THE SAME DAY!!!!
Both Noah and Lot witnessed with their very eyes people being destroyed and being spared the exact same day! No way around that except through UNBELIEF!
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:07 PM
RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #4
Luke 17:30-36 “Even thus shall it be in the day WHEN THE SON OF MAN IS REVEALED. IN THAT DAY, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
Where are they left?
Luke 17:37 “And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. ”
Let me ask you this… Have you ever seen raptors (no pun intended!) gather around people playing on a beach? How about vultures circling overhead while people are working in their gardens? Are there falcons hovering over people going to work? Getting married? Working in fields?
When the Apostles asked Where, Lord? Jesus rather bluntly told them that those people that were not going to Heaven that very same day would be LEFT BEHIND DEAD. Jesus didn’t say that they would be left behind to deal with seven years of tribulation like the pre-trib theory states. Nor did Jesus say that they would remain behind for three and half years like the mid-trib theory proclaims. Just like Jesus illustrated by using both Noah and Lot, He declares here they were destroyed THE VERY SAME DAY.
On the housetop are those at home
In the fields are those at work in the World
In the bed are those in the grave
The “women” are churches
The mill is the work the churches are doing
People of all walks of life will be taken to Heaven on that day whether they are at home, at work, at church, or in the grave. The rest will be left behind as bird food.
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:07 PM
RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #5
1 Thess 4:15-16 “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
The Lord will descend WITH A SHOUT! I ask, how do you shout in secret? And to further prove the error for what it is; In context, this passage easily confirms verse 15 as speaking of the same event and part of the same string of explanation being shared when it continues on saying directly after stating WE ARE ALIVE, that the Lord returns with a shout.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
In verse 15 it speaks of “we which are alive” and states we will not precede or prevent those “which are asleep” in the graves. The order of events is crystal clear:
1) The dead in Christ RISE FIRST.
2) The living saints are then translated and meet the resurrected saints in the clouds
OBVIOUS QUESTION IS:
HOW CAN ALL THOSE GRAVES BURSTING OPEN BE DONE IN SECRET???
Because according to this verse, the dead saints rise BEFORE the living ones are caught up!
Psalm 50:3 “Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.”
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:07 PM
RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #6
Matt 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
If the secret rapture / 7 year / 3.5 year trib theory was correct it would mean everyone left behind would know the exact day and hour of Christ’s return. All one needs do is calculate three and a half years forward, or seven years forward from when the millions of Christians vanished into thin air and you would get the exact day and hour that Jesus would return.
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:08 PM
QUOTE: “I asked Why don’t you think that the saints are in heaven by Revelation 4?
You responded.
If the “saints” refer to all who are saved, then they are not in heaven by Rev 4 simply because Christ has not come yet to resurrect them to life everlasting. However Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the 24 Elders and those who were raised in Matt 27:51-53 (the last 2 groups may overlap) ARE in heaven because God has taken them there.
Will you read John 5:29. I Cor 15:51 et secq, I Thes 4:13-18 & Revelation 20: 5 et secq and ask the Lord to help you to see that there are TWO RESURECTIONS, and reason that these are separated from eah other it seems by at least 1007 years?”
I know that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years. But you are the one who doesn’t seem to know that those I’ve mentioned in my previous post (Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the 24 Elders and those who were raised in Matt 27:51-53) are NOT part of either of these general resurrections! Double check what I wrote and what you wrote. Look at the specific examples of people I gave. And honestly tell me that you realize that they are NOT part of the resurrections mentioned in “John 5:29. I Cor 15:51 et secq, I Thes 4:13-18 & Revelation 20: 5”
JJ // May 28, 2009 at 12:08 PM
Dear Zoe,
You wrote:
QUOTE: “Would you be kind enough to identify if you are an Seventh-day Adventist?”
Zoe, I must respectfully answer that I’m not an SDA. I’ve never even step foot in an SDA church. Never. I have no affiliation with SDA’s. I’m not a member of the SDA’s. There are reasons for this which I won’t go through here yet. However I will say that I thoroughly believe in the seventh-day Sabbath as well as the Second Advent of Christ.
QUOTE: “Why did Jesus oberseve the Sabbath?”
Because He was perfectly obedient.
QUOTE: “You said, “The Mark of the Beast is Satan’s attempt at counterfieting the Seal of God.”
What is the ‘Seal of God?” Prove from Scripture, not implication, or dogma, what or Who is the Seal of God?”
This is what I originally set out to do and I will do this. However, please be patient with me as I’d like to answer other misconceptions first. Thank you.
I’m sorry, but I’ve run out of time today. Like I said elsewhere, I only have limited internet access so I’ll respond to your and Georgie Porgie’s other posts tomorrow. Blessings.
Georgie Porgie // May 28, 2009 at 4:17 PM
JJ you wrote…in response to my statement that ….“On the basis of Paul’s teaching that the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven before the judgements start.”
You are automatically assuming that since the saints are not subject to God’s wrath, they must be in heaven. And you quoted Daniel 12:1, Jeremiah 30:7, out of context and with regard to the fact that these verses refer NOT TO THE CHURCH WHO ARE NOT MENTIONED IN THE OT, AND WHO WILL BE INDEED RAPTURED, then you contradict yourself by quoting Rev 3:10 and Matt 28:20, which DO refer to the church, and the dispensation of the church or the age of grace!
Again John 17:15 refers to the church age, as Christ was speaking to men who represented and stood at the point of the changing of the guard. These men were at the beginning of the Church age.
When we talk about Rightly dividing the Word of Truth and about Hermeneutics and Dispenstions & Covenants here on BU in the past, folk have frowned and scoffed, but you can see what we mean now, I hope.
BTW What is spiritual Israel? And what does that have to do with the price of cheese?
People from all nations WILL BE PRESENT on earth when the four winds are being loosed.
144,ooo servants of the Lord (Jews) will be protected as they do their evangelism, after which they are slain.
Though the Israelites were present during the 10 plagues in Egypt when Pharaoh was ignoring the warnings of God through Moses, they were NOT affected by any of the plagues in anyway.
The Israelites were spared because they were believers at all Sir as you opine! They were delivered by God’s grace at that time. In fact ALL, every single one of them fell in the wilderness after wards except Joshua and Caleb because of THEIR UNBELIEF!
The Lord spared the Old Testament Hebrews by causing the destroying angel to “pass over” the houses of the believers so the plague would not harm them as A TYPE OF SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST.
In like manner believers who today believe in the ANTITYPE THE LORD JESUS will be spared.
Fellow, you contradicting yourself when you quote Romans 5:9, which was directed to folk in the church age and refers to the church!
Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
You wrote and correctly so that
The Lord protected His own in the Old Testament by the blood of the lamb sacrifice, and He promises to protect us New Testament believers by the “…the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) Both sets of believers show their faith by the blood of Christ, do they not? The Old Testament believers trusted God by a show of faith by placing the blood of a lamb upon the doorposts of their houses, we have the Blood of the Lamb upon the doorposts of the heart.
But you have taken Psalms 91:10 out of its context to make your pretext or point! Being raptured before the judgements of Rev 6-19 has nothing to do with our dwellings. We wont need to worry about dwellings because John 14 states that In my Father’s house are MANY DWELLING PLACES (translated in the KJV as mansions).
You wrote
The obedient true child of God is indeed NOT subject to the wrath of God! So WHO IS the subject of God’s wrath? And correctly cite John 3:36; Rom 1:18; Rom 2:5; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6
You then ask
If we are not present during all the time of trouble, please explain these verses:
Psa.27.5 ; Psa.37.39 and Matt.10.17-22 none of which have nothing to do with the issue at hand Sir.
Matt.10.17-22 refers from the context to evangelists in the church age.
Matt 24:9-14 & Matt.24.22-27 & Luke 21:28 refer to the tribulation period and particularly to the Jews again from the context, as Jesus related the answer to the question of the two pairs of brothers to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, ie Daniel 8
John.16.33 and Acts.14.22 refers to the trials or testings that believers have been predicted to endure during the Church age. James 1:12 tells us about WHEN we are tested, and both Peter & Paul predict trials or testings and tribulation for believers BUT AT NO TIME DOES THE WORDSAY THAT BELIEVERS OF THE CHURCH AGE WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
.
Rev.1.7 refers to the epiphanea or glorious coming of Christ or the second phase of the second coming.
2 Thes 2:9 refers to the rise of antichrist
Rev.7.14 has nothing to do with folk from the dispensation of the church age or the age of grace, but to do with the dispensation of the tribulation period which lasts seven years.
JJ I am glad that you are not part of any “denominational dogma.” And I am sorry that your wide reading – and it seems that you have made an effort- has caused you to depart from the truth.
I do not care whether my beliefs is very prevalent among many Protestant churches today or not. My beliefs are formed from my study of the Word and my wide reading just as you did. I in contrast have not apostasized! LOL I hold to a a pre-trib rapture / futurism end time scenario as you call it because I believe that is what the Bible teaches, and not what mamma taught me or the pastor of the local church etc
I have read church History and all about the Protestant Reformation
Though I find the writings of John Nelson Darby generally hard to read because of the English, his teaxchings and that of the Plymouth Brethren and their writers like Grant , Kelly, Ironside ad Arthur Pink are in my opinion all in the top drawer Sir!
So too are the notes in the margins of Scofield Reference Bible. The Moody Bible Institute and the Dallas Theological Seminary have in general produced great teachers and sound expositors of the Word, including J Vernon McGee, and Hal Hal Lindsey is a joy to listen to as he relates the current world affairs to the Biblical passages that relate to the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ! At least he knows which dispensation to place the chapters from Ezekiel 35-39!
How can you tell someone that they have fallen for some type of interpretation when very often in your treatise above you routinely quote scriptures out of their context and seek to use them dishonestly to prove your points? How?
Georgie Porgie // May 28, 2009 at 8:33 PM
@ JJ
Re
RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #1
2 Pet 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Now listen to your nonsense ! You write
Here we see the Word of God declaring the day of the Lord will not only come unexpectedly, it will come with a GREAT NOISE! Does that sound like a secret? How is it possible to hide the fact that the earth, it’s elements, and all the “works” of man upon the earth are burned up on that day? Even if millions of Christians vanish into thin air as some preach, the convulsing and burning planet as well as the great noise all this is going to make will no doubt enlighten the wicked that something out of this world is happening, wouldn’t you think? How do you destroy the earth and all it’s cities without the wicked knowing it?
THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE
1-There are two phases to the second coming ;whether you agree or not the WORD SAYS SO .
2- The day of the Lord is executed over a period of at least 1007 years fro a right division of ALL the Scriptures involved according to the rules of exegesis and interpretation given by Peter himself in 2 Peter 1:20 where he writes Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
This means that when you want to correctly interpret a verse you need to examine what the other scriptures on the SAME issue say, or else you will be contradicting yourself! Many folk are unaware or disobey Peter’s advice in this verse, muddy up the waters, and then have people saying that the Bible contradicts itself.
3- Peter in this single verse [ as is common in much of prophecy ( e.g compare Isaiah 61:1-2a with Luke 4:18-19)] points to an event at the BEGINING of the day of the Lord and an event at the END of the day of the Lord.
The day of the Lord will COME or COMMENCE as a thief in the night. The Lord will come silently swiftly and silently and sieze away the saints just as a thief operates. The phrase “as a thief in the night “ is called in English and Hermeneutics A SIMILE!
The day of the Lord (which is a time period and not a day as can be seen by rightly dividing all the references to this concept in both OT & NT) will COME TO AND END
After Armageddon when it is predicted that “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
You then misinterpret 2 Pet 3:11-14
2 Pet 3:11-14 “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”
Verses 11 & 12 are an admonition to believers to live holy and godly lives in anticipation of the day of the Lord. If Peter did not articulate exactly what is meant from a consideration of all the scriptures on the matter, don’t think he did not know what he was saying.
This passage like the one above DOES NOT place the Lord’s arrival and the Earth’s destruction at the exact same time. You are deliberately dishonestly leaving out the concept of the rapture for which the proof texts are I Thess 4:13-18 & 1 Cor 15:51-57
How could the events described in these passages occur on the same “day” as the “day” of the hullabolu of the destruction or dissolution of the heavens with fervent heat? THINK MAN THINK!
If contemporary believers are not to look for an initial secret parousia followed by a great glorious epiphanea what does Titus 2:13 mean? If there is no dividing of events, no two phases, but ONE day and One event, why does one scripture says that the Lord will meet the saints in the air, and another says that he will come down to the Mount of Olives. Why does the scripture talk abut two different resurrections?
Re RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #2
Luke 17:22 -27 “And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.”
Here you dishonestly merging two different illustrations used by the Lord.
When the flood came unexpectedly, the folk in Noah’s day were eating and drinking and marrying. In other words they were going about the normal round of daily activities; as there is nothing at all wrong with either eating and drinking or marrying. Those who were in the ark were prepared for his coming because they had accepted God’s invitation to the ark (a type of picture of salvation by grace through faith in Christ) and shut up in the ark and looking for his coming. When Jesus comes at the rapture those who are saved will be distinguished only because they have God’s invitation of salvation by grace through faith in Christ and are watching and waiting for his return, because when Jesus comes again , they too will be, and are now yet eating and drinking and marrying – essentially they will be going about the normal round of daily activities ; as there is nothing at all wrong with either eating and drinking or marrying.
Note that in none of the proof texts for the rapture there are no references to lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven, because all the fireworks will occur at Armagededon and in the judgement oif the earth that form part of the day of the Lord or the period or dispensation referred to as the second coming of Christ..
RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #3
Luke 17:28,29 “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ”
Your argument here though logical is unsound because it DOES not take into consideration the truths of all the other scriptures on the matter.
Pat // May 28, 2009 at 9:17 PM
See what I mean. Even you christians, among yourselves, cant agree on anything. Imagine that, and you are reading and quoting from the same story book. Know what, you are both RIGHT. End of dissention.
Hopi // May 28, 2009 at 9:29 PM
@GP…..”I believe that all these things will be so common and so well accepted, that when the people of the world are invited to take the mark, they will find it extremely easy to acquiesce.”
Seeing that you already have so many credit cards will you too be deceived (if you’re not already) into accepting that mark since you do not know what it will be? Weren’t you admonished to live in this world and not be a part of this world i.e the satanic system of debt and usury?
BTW…Have you heard of Bluebeam?
@Carlos……”3. The wonder of its age – most ancient of all books.” This one almost slip thru the covers. Talk about hog puke! The Most Ancient of what? You crazie? Zoe you are either IGNORANT or A DAMN LIAR or A DAMN IGNORANT LIAR! Take your pick sweetie.
Georgie Porgie // May 28, 2009 at 9:47 PM
Pat
Re See what I mean. Even you christians, among yourselves, cant agree on anything. Imagine that, and you are reading and quoting from the same story book. Know what, you are both RIGHT. End of dissention.
———————————————
And your point is?
Do doctors, lawyers or engineers etc agree on everything? Eh?
How can any one in a debate with polar views be both right?Eh?
Surely your post is a non sequitur! It does not follow ( sequitur from the Latin semin deponent verb sequor — sequi- secutus sum) to follow
Georgie Porgie // May 28, 2009 at 9:54 PM
@ Hopi
Re Seeing that you already have so many credit cards will you too be deceived (if you’re not already) into accepting that mark since you do not know what it will be?
NO Hopi. I may have credit cards but these are not the mark, and I am not deceived because I know the truth, and I WONT BE around to take the mark according to clear Bible teaching
Weren’t you admonished to live in this world and not be a part of this world i.e the satanic system of debt and usury? No Hopi I have not got caught up in the cosmos diabolicus. My cards are used more as debit cards rather than credit cards. I abhor paying interest!
Hopi you have obviously been exposed to the Word, but you are an apostate! You should have a good re-read of 2 Peter 2 & Jude 3-19
BTW…Have you heard of Bluebeam? NO I have not. Illumine me.
Zoe // May 28, 2009 at 10:03 PM
JJ, Where do you stand re Israel, the Jews and the NT Church?
More specifically, do you believe that the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Abrahamic Covenant were forfieted, abrogated, and then transfered to the NT Church?
In answer to my question: “Why did Jesus abserve the Sabbath?”
Your answer: “Because He was perfectly obedient.”
Yes, Jesus was perfectly obedient; but, why don’t you deal with the fact, that in His perfect obedience, He completely ‘FULFILLED’ ‘…but to FULFILL…(Matt. 5:17), and also, as recorded in John 19: 28-30, ‘…knowing that ALL THINGS had been ACCOMPLISHED, in order that Scripture might be FULFILLED.”
The significance of the word FULFILL, from the Gk, ‘Pleroo’ to fully accomplish, complete’ cannot, and must not be overlooked, as it goes to the very ‘heart’ of this Sabbath controversy.
What Did Jesus Say About ‘The Law’ and Sabbath Observance?
Did Jesus have anything to say, by way of instruction, teaching, regarding ‘Keeping the Sabbath? Keeping ‘The Ten Commandments? And if so, how did He express it?
Did He in any way summarize the ‘Ten Commandments’ ‘The Law’ bearing in mind, that Jesus never made any distinction between Ceremonial and Moral Law, for when He said Law, it encompassed ‘All the Law and the Prophets.”
The function of ‘The Law’ including the ‘Ten Commandments’ in the Old Testament, is clearly contrasted in the New Testament with the ‘principle’ of, or the ‘Spirit’ of love, as this is the very essence of the New Testament dispensation of Grace, that is, the imperative of love.
Let’s see how Jesus answered the probing Pharisaical Lawyer, in Matthew 22: 34-40.
“But when the Pharisees had heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which is a lawyer, asked Him a question, tempting Him, and saying.”
“Master, which is THE GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW.”
Take careful note of Jesus’ response to this most serious, profound, and relevant question:
“Jesus said unto him, ‘Thou shalt love The Lord Thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.”
“This is the FIRST and great Commandment.”
“And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
Jesus was the first person to combine these two text from Deuternomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.
Having identified THE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS, Jesus now concludes by summarizing ALL the Law and its requirements, let us hear HIM, not what some denomination says, always mindful, “Add thou NOT unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” (Prov. 30:6).
Jesus raps it up by saying:
“On these TWO COMMANDMENTS hang (How much of the Law 99%, NO!) ALL THE LAW and THE PROPHETS.” ( Matt: 24: 34-30). emphasis added.
What does the Apostle Paul, the most gifted and anointed Apostle of them all, himself, a strict ‘Law Abiding’ law keeping Pharisee prior to his conversion on the Damascus road, have to say on this matter in Romans 13: 8-10.
“Owe no man anything, but to LOVE one another. For he that loveth another hath FULFILLED THE LAW.” (v.8).
How do we know that just like Jesus, Paul is referring to the ‘Ten Commandments’ when he says ‘The Law’? Let us be honest and hear!
“For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet: (v.9).
Notice, in identifying FIVE of the Ten Commandments, at NO time does Paul mention the ‘Sabbath’ but simply alludes to the other FIVE Commandments by saying:
“And if there be any OTHER COMMANDMENTS, (the other five, Sabbath included) it is brieftly comprehended (summarized) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself. (v.9b).
Now, JJ, do you think that Jesus and Paul, would deal with such vitally important matters, such as, how DOES ONE KEEP, and FULFILL ‘The Law’ specifically, the ‘Ten Commandments’ and NOT specifically identify and point out the ‘Sabbath’ the fourth Commandment, if this were necessary for ‘The New Testament Church’ to observe; but RATHER, both Jesus and Paul, MAKE NO MENTION OF IT AT ALL!!!
Just like Jesus, Paul then concludes by saying:
“Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: Therefore, LOVE is THE FULFILLING of THE LAW.” ( v.10).
The salient and imperative point that Jesus and Paul stresses, is this, that keeping the Ten Commandments has absolutely NOTHING to do with any one particular DAY, i.e., the Sabbath, why? Because LOVING GOD, and your neighbour as yourself, is something that we should do ALL THE TIME, every single day of the week, Monday through Sunday, ALL SEVEN DAYS, hence, why Jesus nor Paul said anything about Sabbath observance, in fulfilling the Law. WHY?
“For ALL THE LAW is FULFILLED in one word, Thou shalt Love thy neighbour as thyself.” ( Gal. 5:14).
The Gk word ‘pleroo’ rendered ‘fulfill’ the verb is in the ‘perfect tense’ and the translation could read, “The whole law stands fully obeyed.”
As the late Dr. Walter Martin, one of the most gifted Apologists/Polemicists of the twentieth century, now with the Lord in conscious eternal bliss, once wrote, with whom I wholeheartedly concur:
“The Christian stand under ‘the perfect law of liberty’ which enables him to ‘fulfill’ the righteousness of the ‘Law’ by the imperative of love.”
Not Saved // May 28, 2009 at 10:35 PM
“Do doctors, lawyers or engineers etc agree on everything? Eh?”
You are right Georgie, they most certainly do not agree on everything.
But then again they dont have the holy spirit to guide them, do they?
Not Saved // May 28, 2009 at 10:37 PM
whereas of course, YOU do…….
or do you indeed ??
Georgie Porgie // May 29, 2009 at 9:16 AM
@ Not Saved
Whereas he is there to guide, he cant guide those who wont be guided. can he?
I am glad that you found a little place to make one of your little jabs, though. LOL
JJ // May 29, 2009 at 9:58 AM
Dear Zoe,
A few days ago you wrote,
QUOTE: “Think not that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to FULFILL. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until ALL is acomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 5:17-19). emphasis added.
Now, in John we read:
“After this, Jesus, knowing that ALL THINGS had been ACCOMPLISHED, in order that Scripture might be FULFILLED, said, ‘I am thirsty.” (John 19:28-30).
This verse is extremely important to a correct understanding of Matthew 5: 17-19. For, it is here that we find that Jesus had already ‘accomplished’ all but one of the prophecies regarding His life and death of the Messiah. One thing, however still remained to be ‘fulfilled’ so Jesus said, ‘I thirst.’”
Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood your reasoning here but you seem to be saying that ALL the Law and ALL the Prophets (your own emphasis) was accomplished at the cross.
So, an obvious question that immediately comes to mind is, HOW ARE ALL THE OT SCRIPTURES CONCERNING THE SECOND COMING, FULFILLED 2000 YEARS AGO AT GOLGOTHA?
You see my friend, by putting emphasis on certain words, you have ignored others. Look at the first passage again – “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is acomplished.” Did heaven and earth pass away at Calvary?
If you believe that Jesus accomplished ALL THINGS in John 19:28-30, then why are you and I still here in this sin-ridden world? Why is there still sin and misery and disease and death?
Truth is, the word “all” has an absolute sense and also a relative one!
Christ used this word ‘all’ in the relative sense in the statement, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.” (John 12:32) Here the “all men” refers only to those who look to Him by faith, right?
I’ll quote a few more examples:
“And so ALL Israel shall be saved.” Rom 11:26 (Except those who will not be saved.)
“[He] told me ALL that ever I did.” John 4:39 (Except what He did not tell.)
“For ALL seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.” Php 2:21 (Except those who, like Timothy, seek the things of Jesus Christ.)
“These ALL died in faith.” Heb 11:13 (Except Enoch, who was translated.)
“When He saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.” 1 Corinthians 15:27
Your problem is that you’ve mis-applied what was indeed finished at Christ’s first advent.
Study again Zoe.
Once again, do you honestly admit that all the writings of the law and of the prophets are only fulfilled in Christ’s death on the cross and nowhere else?? Because if you do, then that’s utter nonsense!
Some prophecies were clearly fulfilled when Christ was born. Others were clearly fulfilled at His anointing. Still others were clearly fulfilled at His death and resurrection. LIKEWISE, OTHERS ARE CLEARLY YET TO BE FULFILLED!
Same thing with the law.
Some portions of the law clearly typify Christ’s death. Others clearly point to His resurrection. Still others find their antitypical fulfilment in Christ’s High Priesthood.
MY POINT IS THAT THINGS ARE FULFILLED IN THEIR ORDER! IN THEIR ORDER! NOT ALL AT ONCE!
Read again: “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is acomplished.”
In other words Christ is affirming the Scriptures. He’s saying BELIEVE IN THE WORD OF GOD because they ARE TRUE and they WILL be fulfilled. Not one letter will fail! He didn’t come against the OT writings!
JJ // May 29, 2009 at 9:59 AM
QUOTE: “When we let Scripture interpret Scripture, as a sound principle in Biblical hermeneutics, the meaning of this passage becomes evident. Notice how it fits perfectly into the context. In the book of Matthew we find this passage coming soon after Jesus gave His “blessings” on the mount. It comes just before the six times He says. “You have heard…BUT I say unto you.” In the context it is obvious and evident that Jesus is taking authority to Himself greater than that of old covenant law.”
It is “obvious and evident” only if you’ve already set you mind on believing that the law is no longer binding after the cross.
Zoe, there are two DIFFERENT laws:
1) The first one is commonly called the 10 Commandments or Decalogue. The principles of the 10 Commandments (the spirit of the law) have existed from eternity past and will exist forever. This is the Law of God and it cannot change. This is the Law which defines sin.
However, after 400 years of bondage in Egypt, the people of God had forgotten the principles of the Law of God, so God SPOKE to them in human words and terms. He gave the 10 Commandments. He WROTE them out in a way they’d understand. However the Israelites (then and now) took those words BY THE LETTER, forgetting the spiritual principles behind each precept. Therefore Christ came to SET FORTH THE TRUE MEANING OF THE LAW. Christ came to “magnify the law and make it honourable.” Isaiah 42:21
How did Christ magnify the law?
Look at the very examples you were thinking about when you quoted parts of the sermon on the mount:
Matt 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said …Thou shalt not kill; But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment …
Matt 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said … Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery …
ETC ETC
James writes in 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
THE POINT IS: THE LAW IS NOT JUST BINDING BY THE LETTER BUT WE MUST KEEP THE VERY SPIRIT OF THE LAW.
Think about this one. Human laws can only condemn those who have broken them in action. But the Law of God condemns even the wrong thought – this is how we must understand the Law. For those of you who don’t realize this, then read again: He came to MAGNIFY and MAKE HONOURABLE His Law!
Ps 119:96 “Thy commandment is exceeding broad.”
This Law was never done away with at the cross. Why not? Because the 10 Commandments POINT OUT SIN to us. When we see our sin, we realize we are in need of a Saviour from sin. If Jesus “fulfilled” the 10 Commandments at Calvary by making it void, then there hasn’t been a sinner since 31 A.D. Then no one living after the cross has a need for a Saviour!
Rom 4:15 says, “for where no law is, there is no transgression.” But since ALL have sinned, then there still MUST BE the Law!
THE FACT THAT JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SINS IS THE VERY STRONGEST TESTIMONY THAT THE LAW IS STILL BINDING, THAT IT IS FOREVER PERPETUAL! BECAUSE IF GOD COULD HAVE CHANGED HIS LAW, THEN WHY ON EARTH DID CHRIST HAVE TO DIE!
2) The second law is commonly known as the Ceremonial Law or Mosaic Law. This is the law of TYPES and SHADOWS which WERE INDEED FULFILLED AT THE CROSS.
Let me make this very plain and simple for you to understand. The first Law (the 10 Commandments) DEFINE SIN. The second law (this ceremonial one) DEFINES HOW SIN IS DEALT WITH – it defines the SACRIFICE and ATONEMENT for sin! The death of Christ, the Lamb of God on the cross fulfilled the ceremonial types when He said “It is finished.”
JJ // May 29, 2009 at 9:59 AM
You wrote,
QUOTE: “It would be very easy for His listeners to conclude that He was completely doing away with the binding nature of the old covenant.”
Read the sermon Christ gave again. For example, He says…
Matt 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said …Thou shalt not kill; But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment …
Matt 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said … Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery …
ETC ETC
Do you really think that from hearing these words, “His listeners [would easily] conclude that He was completely doing away with the binding nature of the old covenant”????? What gives you the idea that Christ’s audience may be thinking, “hhmmmm, sounds like our Teacher is about to make the law less binding! Yay!”
QUOTE: “It would be very easy for His listeners to conclude that He was completely doing away with the binding nature of the old covenant. This He will do, BUT, not before He completely FULFILLS the prophesies, types and shadows which pointed forward to His work as Messiah and Saviour of the world which are recorded in the law. Therefore, the law must continue UNTIL He has ACCOMPLISHED eveerything. This did in fact happen, as John said, at the death of Jesus.”
Read what I wrote above – it sufficiently exposes your error here.
QUOTE: “Now, if one were to conclude that Jesus was teaching the continuing of the law in this passage, the Christian would immediately be faced with a dilemma. For Scripture expressly states that ‘not one thing, not even the smallest punctuation mark, is to be removed from the law. Thus, if the Christian (Sabbatarian) is going to use this text to prove the perpetuity of the old covenant law, he must also use it to prove the binding nature of ALL old covenant law.”
Once again, you misunderstand the law and the covenants. There is One Lawgiver (James 4:12) and One Law – not two! There isn’t a Law of God and a Law of Christ. Christ kept His Father’s Law! He did nothing of His own but the will of the Father – John 5:30, 15:10
Moreover, God never changed His Law because there was nothing wrong with it! But “FINDING FAULT WITH THEM (with the people, NOT with the Law), Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.” Heb 8:8-10
God will put His LAW (the same law as before because there’s nothing wrong with the Law – “The Law is PERFECT” – Psalm 19:7) in His people through faith in Christ.
JJ // May 29, 2009 at 10:00 AM
QUOTE: “In the writing to the Galatians, Paul warned his readers that tey could NOT take only part of the law and leave the rest. Hear Paul, and man versed in the Law, second only to Jesus.
“I testify again to every man who received circumcision, that he is UNDER OBLIGATION to KEEP the WHOLE LAW.” (Gal 5:3)”
Not quite so hasty, my friend. Stick a little more closely to the text. Notice the wording in the greek: “For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a DEBTOR (opheiletēs) to do the whole law.” You see, the bad thing is not the law, nor the doing of the law, but being a debtor to the law! There’s a vast difference!!
It’s a good thing to have food to eat and clothes to wear, but it is a sorrowful thing to be in debt
for these necessary things. Sadder yet is it to be in debt for them and yet to lack them! A debtor is one who owes something. He who is in debt to the law owes what the law demands; namely, RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore whoever is in debt to the law is under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.”
Gal 3:10. So to attempt to get righteousness by any other means than by faith in Christ is to incur the curse of eternal debt. He is eternally in debt, for he has NOTHING to pay with! Yet the fact that he is in debt to the law – debtor to do the whole law – shows that he ought to do it all. How shall he do it? “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” John
6:29. The only way to do it is to cease trusting in self and receive and confess Christ in his flesh, and then the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in him because he will not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
QUOTE: “Circumcision, Sabbath keeping, etc, etc, was all part of what Jesus DID, in order to completely FULFILL the Law and the Prophets, perfectly, so that the New Testament Church is not required to keep the Sabbath, as any requirement, in order not to take the so-called Mark of the Beast, ‘Sunday’ worship, as our Sabbatarian friends have insisted.”
Does the fact that Christ didn’t kill anybody also mean that He completely fulfilled the sixth commandment and therefore we are now allowed to kill each other? If not, then why any different with the fourth commandment. Who gave you the right to extract out the Sabbath commandment?
QUOTE: “A vitally important word as Jesus used in Matthew 5_ 17-19, is to ‘FULFILL.’
As we can only understand “I did not come to abolish” contrasted with ‘But to FULFILL’ which in fact He did do, thereby, rendering any and all Old Testament legal law requirement, as FINALLY, and completely fulfiled by The Lord Jesus Christ, once and for all.
And this is made abundantly clear by the meaning of the Greek word, that the Holy Spirit used in recording God’s Word in the NT.
Fulfill is from the Gk ‘pleroo’ meaning, ‘Full, to make full, fill, to fulfill, bring to a full end, accomplish, complete. By implication, to fill out, complete, make perfect, accomplish and end. ( Matt 5:17; Phil 2:2; 2 Thess 1:1). In the passive, to be made full, complete (Luke 22:16; John 3:29; 15:11; 16:24; 17:3; 2 Cor. 10:6; I John 1:4; 2 John 1:12; Rev. 3:2). Of persons (Col 4:12).”
Sounds good to me! Jesus came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill. Like you say, ‘to abolish’ is not ‘to fulfill’ and ‘to fulfill’ is not ‘to abolish.’
QUOTE: “The above is just scratching the surface of this subject matter.”
I feel sad that you’ve only scratched the surface. Next time, dig deeper to uncover the real treasure.
JJ // May 29, 2009 at 10:43 AM
More next week.
God bless.
Hog Squeal // May 29, 2009 at 1:20 PM
I wonder what Pastor Holford, Pastor Durant (the deputy chairman at the NAB) the Rev. at Christ Church Parish Church (the new QEH Chairman) Lucille Baird and others – have to say about Barbados’ economic climate and the fact that so many are not suffering because they listened to them and voted for the DLP.
Come on, break your silence this Sunday. What happen: ” kat goyah towns.”
Hog Squeal // May 29, 2009 at 1:23 PM
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.
Zoe // May 29, 2009 at 1:59 PM
JJ, I never said that the Ten Commandments are no longer binding, for Yes, “The Law is perfect.” (Psa. 19:7)
The question is not whether the 10 Commandments are still God’s Holy Law; but, according to the New Testament, as specifically stated by Jesus and Paul, HOW they are KEPT in the spirit of the New Covenant.
In more than one place, the New Testament comments unfavourably upon the practice of any type of leglistic day keeping. In fact, from the ascension of Christ on, the New Testament and early church observed the first day of the week or the Lord’s Day (Rev. 1:10).
Besides the passages which contrast the Lord’s Day with the Sabbath, the Apostle Paul, Hebrew of Hebrews and Pharisee of Pharisees, the outstanding New Testament authority, apart from the Lord, on the Law of Moses, declared that the Sabbath as ‘the law’ was FULFILLED at the cross, and was not binding upon the Christian ( Colossians 2: 16, 17).
To narrow the issue down to simple analysis, let us review the major New Testament texts, which in context and in the light of syntactical analysis refute the Sabbatarian concept, and substantiate the historic position of the Christian Church, since the days of the Apostles and the Fathers.
A. Colossians 2: 13-17.
Of all the statements in the New Testament, these verses most strongly refute the Sabbatarian claim for observance of the Jewish Sabbath. Let us listen to the inspired counsel of Paul, not only the greatest of the apostles, but a Pharisee whose passion for fulfilling the law outdoes that of the most zealous Sabbartarians.
“And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; having canceled the bond which stood against us with its LEGAL demands; this He set aside, nailing them to the cross…Therefore let NO one pass judgment on you in question of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come: but the substance belongs to Christ ( Col. 2: 13-17).
This translation, one of the best from the Greek text today, contains tremendously important teaching.
First, we who were dead have been made alive in Christ, and have been forgiven all trespasses and sins. We are free from the condemnation of the Law in ALL its aspects, because Christ took our condemnation on the cross.
“Therefore” the Apostle Paul boldly declares, “let no one pass judgment on you in question of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or A SABBATH. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”
In the face of this clear teaching, Sabbatarians revert to their DUAL-LAW theory, and argue that Paul is referring only to observance of the Jewish ceremonial law, not to the Sabbath which, they insist, is a moral precept because it is one of the Ten Commandments. Any honest, thorough study, clearly reveal that the Ten Commandments are but a fragment of the moral law encompassed by the commandment, “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” ( Lev. 19:18).
Sabbatarians, however overlook the mass of contradictory evidence and appeal to certain commentators who do not analyze the use of the word “sabbath,” or exegete the New Testament passages where the word occurs. But, if a commentator’s opinion is not in accord with sound exegesis, it is only and ‘opinion’ and unfortunately, a number of well known commentator’s make no grammatical or textual analysis of the second chapter of Colossians.
With regard to this passage, Sabbatarians maintain that since the word in Colossians 2:16 (sabbaton) is in the plural, it means the ceremonial Sabbaths, not the weekly Sabbath, which they contend is still in effect. They argument is that Colossains 2:16, 17 refers to sabbaths and feast days which were shadows of things to come, and thus part of the ceremonial laws, but that the seventh-day Sabbath is not a shadow of redemption, but a memorial of creation and part of the moral law
The leading modern translations, following the best New Testament scholars, render Colossains 2:16 as “a sabbath” or “a sabbath day” not “sabbath days” as in the KJV version.. Their reason for doing this is well stated by E.W. Vine who wrote:
“Sabbaton or sabbata, the latter the plural form, was transliterated from the Aramaic word which was mistaken for a plural; hence the singular sabbaton was formed from it…In the epistles the only direct mention are in Colossains 2:16 “a sabbath day” (RV), which rightly has the singular…where it is listed among the things that were “a shadow of things to come” ; i.e., of the age introduced at Pentecost and in Hebrews 4: 4-11 where the perpetual ’sabbatismos’ is appointed for believers…For the first three centuries of the Christian era the ‘first’ day of the week was never confounded with the Sabbath; the confusion of the Jewish and christian institutions was due to declension from apostolic teaching.”
Supplementing Dr. Vine’s statement is the comment of M. R. Vincent who delcared:
“Sabbath days (sabbaton), the weekly festivals revised correctly as ‘day’ the plural being used for the singular, See Luke 4:31 and Acts 20:7. the plural is only ONCE used in the New Tesatament of more than a single day ( Acts 17:2). In the Old Testament, the same enumeration of sacred seasons occurs in I Chron 23:31; II Chron 2:4; 31: 3; Ezek 45: 17; Hosea 2:11.
As Vincent points out, the revisers’ rendering of ’sabbaton’ in the singular accords with the use of the word throughout the New Testament. However, it is significant that in 59 of 60 occurrances in the New Testament, Sabbatarians affirm that they refer to the ‘weekly’ Sabbath; BUT, in the 6oth occurrance they maintain it does NOT, although all grammatical authorities contradict them.
But, it is interesting to note that the very ‘ordinances’ referred to in Colossains 2: 16,17, that the ‘Sabbath’ is grouped with burnt offerings and new moons (Numbers 28: 1-15), fulfilled in the substance (soma) of the cross of Christ, how then, can Sabbatarians retain the Sabbath?
The Sabbath was the Seal of The Mosaic Covenant, with (who?) ‘The Children of Israel’ NOT the NT Church!
“And the Lord spoke unto Moses saying, Speak thou also unto THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, (not the church) saying, Verily, my Sabbaths Ye (Israel) shall keep: for it is a SIGN between (WHO?) ME and YOU (Israel) throughout your generations” (Exo. 31: 13) emphasis added.
Again in verse 16 we read:
“Wherefore THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (not the NT Chruch) shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throught THEIR Generations…”
“It is a SIGN between (Who?) Me (God) and (Who?) THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL” (v.17)
“More over also, I gave them (Israel) my Sabbaths, to be a sign between (Who?) Me (God) and (Who?) THEM (Israel) that they (Israel) might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them (Israel). (Eze 20: 12).
The antecedent error of ‘Sabbatarianism’ is believing that Israel (the Jews) from the Old Testament, has no future, and that the ‘Church’ is now ‘Spiritural Israel’ receiving the promises made to them in the Abrahamic covenant.
Regarding those who confuse ‘Israel’ with the ‘Church’ Dr. Seiss correctly asserts:
“There is no vice or device of sacred hermeneutics which so beclouds the Scriptures, and so unsettles the faith of men, as this attempt to read Church for Israel and Christian peoples for the Jewish Tribes.”
JJ, you can twist, convolute, take entirely out of centext, verses from the OT, to support your erroneous contention of Sabbath keeping imperative for the NT Church, but it won’t work.
Yes, absolutely, yes, God’s Holy Ten Commandments are still in effect, BUT, they are ALL kept, NOT by the legalistic observance of the Sabbath, BUT, as Jesus and Paul so clearly and emphatically stated.
“On these TWO COMMANDMENTS HAND (How much of the Law) ALL THE LAW and THE PROPHETS ( Matt. 24: 34-40).
“Owe no man anything, but to LOVE one another: for he that loveth another hath (What?) FULFILLED THE LAW” (Rom 13: 8).
“For (How much?) ALL the Law IS FULFILLED in ONE word, even this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Gal. 5:14).
The verb, JJ, is in the perfect tense, and the translation could read:
“The WHOLE LAW, the Ten Commands stands FULLY obeyed” when we do as Jesus and Paul stated!!
JJ, You have a lot to unlearn, it really is sad, that you are so blinded to this reality.
Zoe // May 29, 2009 at 7:13 PM
Back to JJ, and the Sabbath, following on from my earlier post, we can clearly see, if one his linguistically and grammatically honest, that if Sabbatarians insist that Colossains 2:16 refers only to ceremonial sabbaths, they run against the use of the word for weekly sabbaths in the New Testament; and as Dean Alford points out, if “Sabbaths” be allowed, it must include ALL sabbaths, weekly, monthly or yearly. On the other hand, if Sabbatarians admit the correction of the revisers and render Colossains 2:16 ‘a sabbath day’ its use in the New Testament still refers almost exclusively (see Acts 17:2) to the weekly sabbath, which sabbatarians insist is permanent, although Paul deliberately classes it with the ordinances which Jesus by His death nailed to the cross! (Col 2:14).
Dr. J.B. Lightfoot, an acknowledged authority on New Testament Greek, makes this interesting observation:
“The word ’sabbata’ is derived from the Aramaic ’shabbatha’ ( as distinguished from the Hebrew), and accordingly preserves the Aramaic termination of a. Hence it was naturally declined as a plural noun, sabbata, sabaton. The New Testament sabbata is only ONCE used distinctively as more than a single day, and there the plurality of meaning is brought out by the attached numeral ( Acts 17: 2).
It is therefore, obviously apparent, that the use of ’sabbath’ in the New Testament soundly refutes the sabbatarian contention that in Colossians 2 it means Sabbaths other than the weekly Sabbath of the Decalogue.
Since it is impossible to retain the ’shadow’ while possessing the ’substance’ (Col. 2:17), the Jewish Sabbath and the handwritings of ordinances “which was contrary to us” found their complete fulfillment in the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
B. Galatians 4: 9-11.
“But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! I am afraid I have labored over you in vain.” (RSV).
Here we see Paul’s epistle to the Galatians was primarily a massive theological effort to bloster the young church against the Judaizers who added to the gospel of grace “another” gospel” (1:6), and sought to ‘pervert’ the gospel of Christ (1:7).
Though steeped in Jewish lore and the law of Moses, Paul steadfastly opposed the Judaizers. The entire epistle to the Galatians, is an apologetic against those who would seek to bring the Christians “under the law.” After mentioning the errors into which the Galatian church had fallen, Paul, evidently, with great disgust, remarks;
“You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! I am afraid I have labored over you in vain” (4: 10,11, RSV).
In the Greek the expression “days, and months, and seasons, and years,” matches both the Septuagint translation of the ordinances in Numbers 28 and 29, of which all Sabbaths are a principle part, and the ordinances mentioned in Colossians 2. Paul was familiar with the Septuagint and quoted it, and the law, including the weekly Sabbaths, was so cherished by the Judaizers of his day, that its legalistic abservance called forth strong words. Sabbatarians, insist that Paul meant ceremonial feasts and yearly Sabbaths, not the weekly Sabbath, but, Paul’s language and the Septuagint translation of Numbers 28 and 29, refute their objections.
It is one thing, JJ, to interpret your way out of a verse when your interpretation is feasible; but, it is quite another, to ignore grammar, context, and comparative textual analysis (hermeneutics) as you Sabbatarians are so known for doing. To substantiate your interpretation of Paul’s statements, you don’t practice exegesis ( taking out of), but eisegesis (reading into) the texts.
Yes, you Sabbatarians believe in Justification by Grace through Faith, in the atoning Death and Resurrection of Christ, BUT, you then invalidate such Grace, by wanting to add ‘Law’ into the process, which essentially cancels grace.
You cannot have it both ways, both/and, that is Law and Grace, as not only is this unscriptural, but downrightly illogical, as Paul says to them.
“Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?…Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint UNTIL faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian UNTIL Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are NO longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith ( Gal. 4:21; 3: 23-26, RSV).
We must never forget, that “the law” in its larger connotation includes the entire Pentateuch, it is apparent from Paul’s language that one is “under the law” when he sttempts to observe any part of it, because the Christians has been freed from the law. Sabbatarians are for the most part, Christians, saved by grace, BUT, we do not find Scriptural warrant for theit attempt to enjoin the Sabbath upon fellow believers.
As I showed earlier, that the Greek word ‘pleroma’ rendered respectively ‘FULFILLED’ and ‘FULFILLING’ in Romans 13: 8, 10, RSV, appears 90 times in the New Testament, and has the same basic meaning. Clearly and obviously, the Apostle Paul understood this term well, and I am sure that Sabbatarians confess the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and must, if they want to be intellectually honest, concede that the Holy Spirit guided Paul’s pen.
The Sabbatarians must by necessity, continue to quote from the Decalogue, upon which they rely for perpetual Sabbathkeeping, BUT, as shown earlier, Jesus and Paul in the NT, declare, ” The commandments…are summed up in this sentence.
“You shall love your neighbour as yourself…therefore love is the FULFILLING of the law…He who loves his neighbour has FULFILLED the law” and since he quotes from the Decalogue as part of the law, the fourth commandment IS also FULFILLED, not by rigid observance of a given day, NO! but by loving one’s neighbour as one self.
Since it is impossible in the Christian context to love one’s neighbour at all, apart from loving God as the prerequisite, the issue is clear. The false teaching that love of one’s neighbour does not fulfill all the law of God comes from a failure to realize that our love for God and neighbour stems from God’s initiating act of love in Christ. This law of love is first enunciated in Leviticus 19:18, which our Lord coupled with the commandment to “love the Lord thy God ” (Deut 6:4), and stated that observance of those two commandments FULFILLED “all the law and the prophets.”
As cited earlier, and I will be returning over and over again to these fundamental New Testament texts, as no matter where you go, JJ, from the OT, in seeking to justify your Sabbath keeping, you CANNOT get around the plain, obvious, emphatic, declaration as given in the New Testament, by both Jesus Christ, and Paul:
“The WHOLE LAW is FULFILLED in ONE word, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself” (Gal. 5:14, RSV), so we resolutely see that Paul’s theology rested upon the imperative of ‘Love.’
While Sabbatarians may seek to escape the obvious implications of Colossains 2: 14-17, and try to explain away Galatians 4: 9-11, in the present passage the Holy Spirit twice declares that love FULFILLS the law, with the context of which it is referred, identifying each time, that the ‘Ten Commandment’s’ are the central focus. Sabbatarians cannot exempt the Sabbath from this context, without destroying the unity of the “Eternal Ten,” hence their delimma!!!
Pat // May 29, 2009 at 9:49 PM
@ GP
I was referring to you and Zoe. You are both preachers who profess to be blessed by the Word. You both claim to have an understanding of the Word that we dont. You both claim to get this understanding from the Holy Spirit, yet you seldom sing from the same song sheet. Sumptin wong.
Notice I capitalized out of respect for you GP. hahaha.
Georgie Porgie // May 29, 2009 at 10:19 PM
That is not at all true Pat.
Whereas I have never met Zoe, I have often on the varius threads complemented him for his posts , by which he exhibits that he is well read (from the authors he quotes) and because he rightly divides the Word of truth.
Our posts are actually very complementary and not at all contradictory. It semms that you are mixing us up with JJ ( who is clearly Adventist), as is very clear from his misunderstanding of the fact that Christ fulfilled i.e completed the requirements of the Law.
If you read several good commentaries on the same chapter, you will notice that each bring out different truths, without wrongly dividing the Word of truth.
I am currently doing a study on Mark 7 and am enthralled by the nuggests of truth that Constable, Stedman & McGee extract from the same text, even though they follow the same story line.
One gives a great outline of the passage (essential for opening up the passage), another reveals information about special Greek words used only by this author, and the passge, and thier significance; yet another relates the truths of the passage to the related prophesy about the pasage and the collateral passage in Mathew.
So I get to learn from each of them and get the challenge of merging three viewpoints in my notes.
I dont think that they are not singing from the same hymn sheet. Its just that the Spirit has impressed different truths on each of them or/and each one uses his own emphasis or style of exegesis,
Just goes to show that the Word is always fresh to those who love it.
Hopi // May 30, 2009 at 7:53 AM
@GP……..It was straight up lies, deceit and hypocrisy in christianity that put me on the road to apostasy.
Those debit cards ain’t gonna save you, because you are still caught up in the system.
As for Bluebeam, that’s the weapon associated with the take down TWA 800 a few years ago and that’s the same weapon that will beam all your saviours across the sky i.e. Jesus Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Allah…….”Oh what a weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth!”
Boy, this christianity thing is so damn good that it even has the CPU brainwashed to the point that if I type the word ‘christianity’ with lowercase ‘c’ it is ‘red-lined’ telling me that I have to pay homage with an uppercase ‘C’ Talk about effective. You gotta love it GP!
Hopi // May 30, 2009 at 9:14 AM
@GP…….tell me why in Lev 21 :16-23 is there so much discrimination esp. those with flat noses?
Georgie Porgie // May 30, 2009 at 11:25 AM
To Pat & any who might be interested.
Pat, you will recall that in my rebuttal of your opinion that Zoe and I were not singing on the same hymn sheet. I pointed out that this need not be so if we were complimentary.
Permit me to indicate this by posting the writings of three beloved expositors on the SAME passage concerning Jesus’ exorcism of a Phoenician girl Mark 7:24-30 (cf. Matt. 15:21-28)
Here is the text under consideration.
JESUS HEALS THE SYROPHOENICIAN WOMAN’S DAUGHTER
And from there he arose and went away to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And he entered a house, and would not have any one know it; yet he could not be hid. But immediately a woman, whose little daughter was possessed by an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell down at his feet. Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by birth. And she begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter. And he said to her, “Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” [Here he used a diminutive, a term which means "pets", not scruffy street dogs.] But she answered him, “Yes, Lord; yet even the dogs [pets] under the table eat the children’s crumbs. ” And he said to her, “For this saying you may go your way; the demon has left your daughter.” And she went home, and found the child lying in bed, and the demon gone. (Mark 7:24-30 RSV)
In his Thru The Bible in five Years notes
J VERNON McGEE comment thus
We have had this incident before. You will recall that our Lord stepped out of His own land and met this woman who was a Greek and a citizen of Tyre. She came to Jesus in faith. And the word daughter here is the diminutive form which means she was just a little girl. At first, our Lord’s treatment of her may appear brutal, but you will remember that when we studied this in the Gospel of Matthew, we showed the dispensational interpretation which is actually the revelation of a tremendous truth. And I think here something else tremendous is also revealed and that is the accuracy of the four Gospels. This woman is an outstanding example of faith in one who lives outside His land. And our Lord answered her petition. One wonders whether He came to that area for the specific purpose of answering the faith of this woman.
To clarify the above, here are his notes on the same incident from his comments on Mathew’s account of the same incident.
THEN JESUS WENT THENCE, AND DEPARTED INTO THE COASTS OF TYRE AND SIDON [MATT. 15:21].
Now our Lord leaves the land of Israel for the first time during His public ministry. This is interesting because He came to Israel as her King. When He sent His disciples out, He instructed them to go into the cities of Israel but not beyond her boundaries. Then the Lord was rejected by Israel, and there arose conflict. The breaking point between Jesus and the religious rulers came only a few verses ago.
What happens? Jesus Himself steps over the boundaries of Israel and lays down another great principle. He will now receive the Gentiles. His invitation is, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest (lit., ”rest you“)” (Matt. 11:28).
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us [Matt 15:22–23].
The Syrophoenician woman was a mixture of several races and a true Gentile (see Mark 7:26 for her nationality). She had no claim on Jesus as the Son of David, and when she addressed Him as such, He answered her not a word.
The disciples said, “Send her away, for she crieth after us.” She was causing a disturbance and probably a little embarrassment.
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel [Matt 15:24].
This seems to be a harsh statement, but it was a statement of fact. Jesus was offering Himself first as the fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning the coming of the King in David’s line. He was forcing this gentile woman to recognize that fact.
Jesus came as King of the Jews. You mark that down—it was the primary issue that had to be settled. He died with this superscription written over Him on the cross: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Now listen to this gentile woman—
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me [Matt. 15:25].
When she addressed Him as the Son of David, He said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” She as a Gentile had no claim upon Him as the Son of David. However, now she comes and worships Him, calling Him “Lord,” and asks for help. Now she will get help, as we shall see.
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs [Matt. 15:26].
That is a very strong statement! Such a rebuff would have driven many of us away. We would have turned on our heels and said, “You can’t talk to us like that!”
Now you must agree McGee is very simple, but gives some good information to the beginner.
Now compare this with STEDMAN’S analysis below on the same very passage and event. STEDMAN WRITES
Two questions are always asked about this incident: The first is, “Why did Jesus go into Tyre and Sidon?” These were Gentile cities, Canaanite cities. This woman was a Canaanite, Matthew tells us. Yet Jesus left immediately after this teaching on tradition and went into Tyre and Sidon. Why?
The only answer is that, as we have seen in this whole section of Mark, he is teaching his disciples certain lessons. This was the first lesson. He was illustrating in terms of race what he had just said in terms of food. All foods are clean, and all peoples are clean, in the sense of being accepted by God. There are no distinctions among foods, as being defiling or undefiling; there are no distinctions among people. So he led them to a Gentile city, in order that their Jewish scruples might be challenged immediately.
The second question is, “Why did he treat this woman rather harshly?” Matthew says that when she first asked him to heal her daughter, he would not even answer her. Many have wondered why.
I think the answer is in Matthew’s account, where we are told that she first addressed him in this way: “O thou Son of David, come and heal my daughter.” “Son of David” is a Jewish term for the Jewish Messiah. She was coming to him on the ground that he was a Jew, and she was a Gentile. That is why he said to her, “The children first must be fed,” because it was God’s program that this gospel go to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles.
Now, he never intended that the Gentiles be excluded. But it was to be in the order of the Jews first, then the Gentiles. And when she came on that ground, invoking all the power of Jewish tradition, he said to her, in effect, “You will have to wait until the time comes, until the gospel goes out to the Gentiles. Then I can heal your daughter. By coming on this ground, you have imposed limits and barriers on God. Until they are removed, you cannot come.”
But then we have this refreshing change. The woman, concerned about her daughter, in agony for her child, presses through and says, “Yes, Lord; I know that’s right. The children ought to eat first, and then the dogs. But, even the dogs eat the crumbs which fall from the children’s table.” Then she said what Matthew records: “Lord, help me.”
The minute she turned from the ground of tradition and the Hebrew approach and, merely as a needy woman concerned about her child, said, “Lord, help me,” our Lord’s answer was immediate: “Go your way, your daughter is healed.”
By this incident Mark wants us to learn that tradition is a way of building barriers between us and God. But faith strikes through them all, right to the heart of God. When we come to God in simple faith, without any form or ritual or prescribed words — merely open our spirit in its need before a providing God — the answer is always instant and immediate, and healing comes.
That is why we worship by our inner response, by what we think while we are singing and praying, rather than by the outward form.
Now here is CONSTABLE’s exegesis on the same passage.
Jesus increased His ministry to Gentiles as He experienced increasing rejection from the Jews. This third withdrawal from Galilee took Jesus outside Palestine for the first time.
Mark also recorded Jesus doing more things outside Galilee and fewer things within Galilee than the other evangelists. By pointing this out Mark helped his readers realize that ministry to Gentiles was God’s will in view of Israel’s final rejection of Jesus.
Mark included three events that occurred outside Palestine and one following Jesus’ return.
There is a logical connection between this section and the one that precedes it (7:1-23).
Jesus had explained why He did not observe the traditional separation from defiling associations. Now He illustrated that by going into Gentile territory. This contact would have rendered Him ceremonial unclean according to the Jews’ traditions.
7:24 Mark normally began a new paragraph with the Greek word kai (“and”).Here he used de (“and” or “now”). This change indicates a significant change in the narrative. The hostility of Israel’s leaders led Jesus to correct them “and” to leave Galilee for ministry elsewhere.
The New Testament writers often spoke of Phoenicia as the land of Tyre and or Sidon because they were the two notable cities of the region. Tyre stood on the Mediterranean coast about 40 miles northwest of Capernaum. Jesus went there to be alone with the disciples. Nevertheless His fame accompanied Him, and He was not able to remain incognito.
7:25-26 “Syrophoenician” combines the terms Syrian and Phoenician. Phoenicia was a part of the larger Roman province of Syria. Other Phoenicians lived elsewhere since they were a great seafaring and commercial people. For example, the Libyo-Phoenicians lived in North Africa. The woman who heard about Jesus and sought Him out was a Gentile.
Demons were afflicting her young daughter (cf. v. 30). Her persistent request for help demonstrated her faith in Jesus. She believed Jesus could heal her if He would do so.
7:27-28 Jesus probably conversed with the woman in the Greek language, which was common in that area. The woman conceded that the Jews had a prior claim on Jesus’ ministry. Nonetheless if the little pet dogs (Gr. kynarion) get the table scraps, then she felt she had a right to a crumb from Jesus’ table. She implied that the Gentiles need not wait to receive Jesus’ blessings until a later time. They could feed when the children did,
namely, during Jesus’ ministry.
A little Gentile blessing would not deprive the Jews of what God wanted them to have. (“The Gentiles are not called ‘dogs’ but ‘doggies,’ not outside scavengers, but household companions.”)
7:29-30 The woman’s answer had revealed a quick wit and humility, but it was her persistent faith that Jesus rewarded (cf. Matt. 15:28).
“In contrast to the tradition of the elders Jesus [authoritatively] embraces the alienated of the Mosaic and rabbinic tradition: a leper (1:40-45), tax collectors and sinners (2:13-17), and even unclean Gentiles, including a Syrophoenician woman (7:24-30).”
The woman’s departure for home without Jesus also shows her faith. This
is the only instance of Jesus healing from a distance without a vocal
command that Mark recorded. As such, it demonstrates the great power of
Jesus working for this woman’s need.
The healing was instantaneous, as
usual. Perhaps one of the disciples accompanied the woman and reported
what Mark wrote in verse 30. This incident would have had special interest for Gentile readers. It shows that Jesus rewards Gentile faith as well as Jewish faith. Jesus had come to deliver both Gentiles and Jews (10:45).
I am sure, that one can learn much from each of these analyses by three different individuals, who have ALL DIVIDED THE WORD RIGHTLY & ACURATELY, and each delivered what the Spirit revealed!
The key is they have all three DIVIDED THE WORD RIGHTLY.
I rest my case! LOL
Georgie Porgie // May 30, 2009 at 2:18 PM
@ Hopi
Re It was straight up lies, deceit and hypocrisy in christianity that put me on the road to apostasy.
What you mean is you were the victim of up lies, deceit and hypocrisy in Christendom!
You should not let that deter you from having a relationship with the God you actualloy once learned about and believed.
Girl, I can tell you that I myself have been a victim of the same, and several times. I even had an elder in a church in St Kitts who had the power, to deny me a work permit to work on that island, only because the congregations of our assemblies loved to hear me teach, and he was tremendously envious. I was just having fun, and sharing what I had, but that man actually took bread out of my mouth.
Re Those debit cards ain’t gonna save you, because you are still caught up in the system.
NO I am not. I live very simply, ma dear.
Re
tell me why in Lev 21 :16-23 is there so much discrimination esp. those with flat noses?
I really cant say. I would have to do some serious rsearch to get you an answer for that. But it really is not that significant for us whole live in the church age or the dispensation of grace.
Zoe // May 30, 2009 at 7:49 PM
Like GP, I’ve had more than my share of hurt, pain and disappointment within the ‘Church’ BUT, that will never turn me off of The Lord Jesus Christ, and His Word, He has never once turned His back on me, as I’ve also failed Him many times; being very imperfect.
I’ve proved Jesus to be entirely Faithful, over and over again, for as He said:
“I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
“So we may boldly say:”
“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?”
(Heb. 13:5b-6a)
Praise be to His Holy, Majestic Name!!!
Straight talk // May 30, 2009 at 8:05 PM
Zoe:
Calm down girl.
You are coming across as a serially abused wife.
When exactly did your wedding day dreams butt up against reality?
Georgie Porgie // May 30, 2009 at 10:16 PM
@ Straight Talk
Ease up pun Zoe man. He has just given his testimony. He has only expressed what he feels about his hero.
I just came from two sessions of a Bible Conference here in the Orlando area, revolved around The Lord Jesus Christ, and His Word.
Like Zoe, I can tell you it is painful, when you had not worked for years and had to leave your country and be let down by so called Christians, only because others spoke too well of your Hermeneutical & Homiletical skills.
I had the best paying job I had ever had in my life at a medical school there, and only had to teach two hours per week.
I was thoroughly enjoying myself, and looking foward to helping the church to set up the Bible school that they wanted to set up, didn’t know how to set up, and still have not set up even seven years later. And one of the elders arranged that the medical’s school application on my behalf was denied.
Man I even had a school in the USA willing to award thier degrees externally, and with very little cost to the students or the church.
The hurt, pain and disappointment within the ‘Church’ is still felt as this man not only took good bread out of my mouth then, but even this year it cost be a better job at a better school in Nevis.
But you have to leave these so called Christians to God. You cant let cause you to leave your joy in Christ. You have to turn your eyes upon Jesus and do like David who “encouraged himself in the Lord” (1 Samuel 30:6). You got to look “unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)
Pat // May 30, 2009 at 11:27 PM
@ GP
You are a good a dedicated teacher. But looking back on your explanations of the different divisions of the Word (through the Spirit), is it any wonder that some of us turned our backs on Christianity?
….why this Christianity thing does not just confuse the mind (which is probably its intent), it seems like nothing short of confusion itself.
Bush Tea // May 31, 2009 at 12:09 AM
@ Pat
This is exactly what I have been trying to tell GP (but he feel that the bushman is a ‘lil cor’mere boy so he just dis me LOL)
What is more, I pointed out to him that Jesus himself said EXACTLY what you just said about his message (i.e. that his message was designed to confuse the mind of those listening).
Yet GP and Zoe and millions of their kin feel that their role is to ‘divide’ the word and save us all…
When I ask him to explain why the bible is equally confusing, (when God could easily have made it understandable) he also dis’ the Bushman, and gone off with some other long division again…..
Here is another joke for you Pat… Jesus also predicted that many will ‘come in his name’ (calling themselves Christian?) saying things that sound plausible – AND SHALL DECEIVE MANY…
I personally feel that we should try to understand WHY the whole thing seems so confusing….not just dismiss it as “one of those things…”
Not Saved // May 31, 2009 at 12:40 AM
Or,
It could be that it was written by men and not a god..
Bush Tea // May 31, 2009 at 9:02 AM
@ Not Saved
There is no question that it was written by men. However these men were specially inspired by God to do this writing, and they wrote in their own unique individual styles.
…case in point was Paul. Now here is a man who did not study with any reference books or great teachers like GP. In fact he was a famous hater before his reluctant conversion.
…suddenly Paul ‘understands the message’ like a gorilliphant.
I wonder how GP explains this?
Bush Tea // May 31, 2009 at 9:19 AM
Back on topic
@GP
Now Georgie, here is my problem. Jesus says in response to a direct question from his disciples that he will only speak to others in parables, and that he does this in order to ensure that they do NOT get his message.
HOWEVER, he tells them that THEY are entitled to get the true message – and goes on to explain what he meant.
Does this not suggest to you that it would be particularly smart to pay special attention to the answers that Jesus gave TO HIS DISCIPLES rather than trying to divide his words to the general public (and the rest of the bible in general?) – which HE SAYS are intended to confuse?….
Now did the disciples not ask him directly what would be the signs of his ‘coming’ and of the end of the world?
Why not let us ‘divide’ his answer – which should be straightforward since it was only to the disciples, and therefore not meant to confuse…
(fret not, the Bushman will not rub in the fact that one of the things that he said was that only those who endured to the end would be saved….LOL – maybe he made a mistake cause both GP and Zoe are already saved…LOL)
Zoe // May 31, 2009 at 11:35 AM
@ JJ, A bit more to digest for this week.
A BETTER LAW; A Better Covenant.
“But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry by as much as He is also the mediator of a ‘better covenant’ which has been enacted on ‘better promises’. For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them [the sons of Israel]…I will effect a ‘new covenant’ with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant which I made with their fathers.” (Heb. 8: 6-10).
Now comes the essence of what the new covenant is to be:
First,
“I will put My laws into their minds. And I will write them upon their hearts” ( Heb. 8:10).
How is this done?
“Written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, NOT on tablets of stone, (Ten Commandments) but on tablets of human hearts (2 Cor. 3:3).
The Mosaic Covenant.
The Mosaic Covenant was made with the chosen nation, Israel, after the Exodus and at Mt. Sinai. It was made to be a ’schoolmaster’ to bring Israel to Christ Jesus, the Saviour of the world.
Why was this covenant given? Did it annul the Abrahamic Covenant? How does the New Covenant affect it? Is it in effect today? How these questions are answered has great theological and eschatological implications.
1. With whom was the Covenant made?
The Mosaic Covenant was made strickly and ‘only’ with the chosen nation of Israel (Exodus 24: 7,8; Deuteronomy 5: 1-5′ I Kings 8: 9, 21: Jeremiah 31:-32; Romans 5: 12-14 with John 1:17; Romans 9: 4,5).
2. When was the Covenant given?
The Mosaic Covenant was made 430 years after the Abrahamic Covenant (Galatians 3: 14-18). It was given to Israel in the wilderness after their deliverance from Egypt. Before this time it was not in effect, but was preceded by other covenants of grace and faith
The SEAL of the Mosaic Covenant.
The sign or seal of the Mosaic Covenant was the weekly Sabbath day. It is distincly spoken of as a ’sign’ between God and the nation of Israel (Exodus 31: 12-17; Ezekiel 20: 10-26; Leviticus 19:30; Nehemiah 9: 14; Leviticus 23:3).
The Sabbath in the Old Testament.
There are a number of important facts concerning the ’seal’ of the Mosaic Covenant which need to be noted to see how it finds ‘Fulfilment’ in the New Covenant.
1. There is NO mention of keeping the Sabbath day from Adam to Moses. That is, under the Adamic, Noahic, and Abrahamic Covenants we have NO mention of the Sabbath for about 2500 years.
2. The first specific mention of keeping Sabbath is found in Exodus 16: 23-26 concerning the gathering of the daily manna, and this was spoken to the nation of Israel.
3. The keeping of the Sabbath was the fourth commandment of the Decalogue given to Israel at Mt Sinai ( Exo. 20: 9-11; 31: 18).
4. It is the fourth commandment of the Decalogue that God took to be the ’sign’ and ’seal’ of the Mosaic Covenant ( Exo. 31: 12-17); Deut 5: 12-15). Each of the covenants had their ‘own’ sign and seal, and God did NOT take the sign or seal of other covenants and make such the seal of the Mosaic Covenant. This is ALSO the case in the New Testament, contrary to Sabbatarians who want to impose the ‘Seal’ of the Mosaic Covenant on the NT Church, wrong!!
5. Though the ten commandments are spoken of as the Moral Law, the fourth commandment concerning the Sabbath was actually a ceremonial law. It was this ‘ceremony’ that was attached to the Mosaic Covenant as its seal.
What is Significant in the New Testament?
All of the moral commandments of the Mosaic Covenant, are repeated and endorsed in the New Testament, with ONLY ONE exception, the ceremonial fourth commandment, concerning the Sabbath. Why was the ‘Sabbath’ NEVER stated as a requirement for New Testament believers?
Because, as Paul tells us that the Old Covenant was old, decaying and ready to vanish away. It was a ministration of death, and was to be done away with ( II Cor. 3: 1-18; Heb. 8: 6-13). The New Covenant has its own ’sign’ and ’seal’ even the true and spiritual rest, which is baptism in the Holy Spirit ( Isa. 28: 9-11; acts 2: 1-4). To take the Sabbath day, and impose its keeping upon Christians today, Jew or Gentile, is to take the sign and seal of the Old Covenant, and add it to the sign and seal of the New Covenant. It is NOT Scriptural to do this; for it then becomes a confusion of covenants.
Even as the ’seals’ of the other covenants find their ‘fulfilment’ in the seal of the New Covenant, so the Sabbath rest, IS fulfilled in the New Covenant rest, in the Person of The Lord Jesus Christ, NOT the observance of a day, and we are ‘Sealed’ by, in, and through the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30). This is true spiritual reast ( Isa. 28: 11, 12).
In Christ, the believer finds true Sabbath rest. He ceases from his own work, and attempts, and finds true ‘rest’ in the finished work of Christ. It is “in” Jesus Christ, that there is everlasting rest. This ‘Fulfills’ ‘the perpetual covenant’ of Sabbath rest. It IS NOT in the keeping of a ‘day’ BUT, in the receiving of a “Person” – Christ Jesus our Lord, that one finds the rest of God ( Matt, 11: 28-30).
Therefore, the Mosaic Covenant, finds its perfect ‘Fulfilment’ completion, in the Lord Jesus Christ. He was the only man, who ever perfectly kept the law in ALL of its requirements. He fulfilled and abolished in His cross, ALL that which pertained to the ceremonials, AND the externals of the law. That righteousness which is in the law, which is holy, just, good, spiritual and perfect, finds its absolute FULFILMENT in Christ Jesus Himself, re-living His sinless life in the believer ‘who walks not after the flesh, but after the Spirit ( Romans 8: 1-4). Christ’s new law of love to God and man, written upon the tables of the heart, by the Spirit, enables the believer to live that life that is pleasing to God.
As Dr. Walter Martin so aptly said:
“The Christian stand under ‘the perfect law of liberty’ which enables him to ‘fulfil’ the righteousness of the law, by the imperative of love.”
Georgie Porgie // May 31, 2009 at 4:25 PM
@ Not Saved
Re Or, It could be that it was written by men and not a god..
This is what the scripture says on this subject Sir!
2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”
(This verse states that all of the Scriptures are “theopneustos” in the original Greek — “breathed out by God:”
2 Peter 1:20-21: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
1 Thessalonians 2:13: “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”
(KJV)
Georgie Porgie // May 31, 2009 at 4:28 PM
@ Pat
Thanks for your kind words.
Re ….why this Christianity thing does not just confuse the mind (which is probably its intent), it seems like nothing short of confusion itself.
I can honestly say that I have never been confused by the Word.
Are they things I don’t understand? Yes!
Are they difficult passages to interpret? Most Certainly! But confused no!
There are places where they are APPARENT contradictions. But I have found that these can usually be resolved by a word study or comparison with parallel texts. .
Re But looking back on your explanations of the different divisions of the Word (through the Spirit), is it any wonder that some of us turned our backs on Christianity?
I don’t think that anyone should be come apostate because we don’t understand the Bible, or the behavior of believers or even the different denominational dogmas (which are certainly the work of the devil!). Note I said DOGMA, rather than DOCTRINE.
I am not sure if you are saying that my explanation of the Word has confused you or if you are saying that you are confused about the three different presentations in the three extracts from three popular teachers that I presented above.
If it is the later let me explain.
I first gave an extract from McGee’s notes and Mark on the meeting of Jesus and the Syrophoemician woman.
Let me say, that I have found McGee’s notes complied from his Radio Ministry where he taught the Bible through in 5 years in the libraries of many Bible teachers, even though many critics have said that McGee was wishy washy.
Now I have the CD with all his works now but I started many years ago collecting the notes he used to send out to radio listeners which had ONLY the outlines of the books. Over the years when I wanted to study a book, I would always begin by going to McGee’s outlines, for help in “opening up the book” for me.
In the notes on his book studies themselves, for some passages he is deep with good word studies and good illustrations, in other cases he seems to just gloss over the passage. Mc Gee gives simple but useful stuff in my view.
Now in this case McGee points a few things that the beginning student might not know from a wiser reader of the Scriptures
1- Now our Lord leaves the land of Israel for the first time during His public ministry. This is interesting because He came to Israel as her King. When He sent His disciples out, He instructed them to go into the cities of Israel but not beyond her boundaries.
2- the Lord was rejected by Israel, and there arose conflict. The breaking point between Jesus and the religious rulers came only a few verses ago. (cf Mathew 13 where the conflict comes to a head when Israel rejects her King)
3- Jesus Himself steps over the boundaries of Israel and lays down another great principle. He will now receive the Gentiles.
4 He points out that as a gentile the Syrophoenician woman had no claim on Jesus as the Son of David.
5 He points out that in his initial treatment of the Syrophoenician woman , Jesus why was forcing this gentile woman to recognize the fact that Jesus was offering Himself first to Israel as the fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning the coming of the King in David’s line.
Now to me that is not enough to use to teach this incident, but as a beginner I have learned a few things, and my understanding of the Word he has rightly divided the Word to give what he gives.
Now this is the same way I have studied many things, as my university career coincided with my development as a Bible student.
For me, McGees notes clearly does not do full justice to this passage, so we turn to STEDMAN’S analysis of the same very passage from one of a couple sermons online that he preached on this chapter over the years.
Stedman points out
1- that this incident occurs in Mark in a section where Jesus was teaching his disciples certain lessons including the fact that all foods are clean, and all peoples are clean, in the sense of being accepted by God. There are no distinctions among foods, as being defiling or undefiling; there are no distinctions among people etc
2 . that this incident occurred immediately after Jesus had taught on how Jewish traditions had superceded the truths and intention of the Law
3- . that this incident was an illustration for the teaching mentioned above
Stedman then basically agrees with McGee concerning the reason why Jesus seemed to treat this woman rather harshly , and both of them agreed that the answer, though not given in Mark’s account is better explained in Matthew’s account. (So they have both compared scripture with scripture on this question- as they ought to may I say!
But Stedman gives more information for the inquiring Bible student!
Constable’s commentary resulted from lectures he gave to his Seminary students at Dallas, unlike Stedman’s sermon to his probably less studious church members. Without wrongly dividing the Word, Constable gives more information in a different style. The reader extracts what he wants for his needs – which may be for information, for devotion, for teaching or preaching purposes. I learn a bit from each without being confused.
Georgie Porgie // May 31, 2009 at 6:04 PM
@ BUSH TEA
Re (fret not, the Bushman will not rub in the fact that one of the things that he said was that only those who endured to the end would be saved….LOL – maybe he made a mistake cause both GP and Zoe are already saved…LOL)
Could you help me divide this passage? What is meant by NOW ARE WE the sons of God in verse 2?
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Could you tell us how many different Greek words are used in the NT to translate the words SAVED & SALVATION, and indicate what are their common uses in classical greek or in the koine greek used in the writing of the ?
Bush Tea // May 31, 2009 at 8:19 PM
@ GP
The Bush Tea is not a known divider, but It seems to me that the passage to which you refer deals with an explanation of the extent of the love of God. The writer is explaining sentiments almost identical to John 3:16…. that because of BBE’s love, believers will get to BECOME BBEs instead of the future that we really deserve…
…somewhat like you standing in front of one of your classes and admonishing them that they should appreciate the sacrifice of their sponsors so that “they should be called Doctor” ….(but let them not pass that final exam and see what happens…LOL)
Clearly GP, believers will be expected to speak in faith and hope as though the results will be a foregone conclusion (MME was referring to himself as ‘ING’ long before his final graduation LOL).
Many women (and men) pat a pregnant stomach and speak expectantly of their ’son’ or ‘daughter’ (to be).
This does not seem complicated or in need of division to me.
On the other hand, when asked about what the signs of his coming, Jesus was at pains to point out the coming difficulties and the need to endure to the end.
Paul also talks of ‘working out your own salvation in fear and trembling…’ (nothing to do with WORKING FOR salvation) but more like ‘enduring to the end…’)
…and GP,
Man- what tell you what Greek words what?!?
You serious? you think I are MME? LOL.
Man I barely understand English…
In any case, read 1John 2:27 very slowly and tell me again why I need to care about Greek words….
Georgie Porgie // May 31, 2009 at 8:35 PM
BT
Did you see the word NOW in verse 2? What do you thik the word NOW means in that verse about the believer’s current status?
Bush Tea // May 31, 2009 at 8:53 PM
It means that NOW that they are believers (or NOW that your students are undergrads, or NOW that a woman is pregnant) they have faith and hope and can consider themselves ordained sons of God. ( doctors / parents etc)
….clutching at straws GP!?
It is a great hope! It is powerful good news! it is a special blessing! …. but is is only a fetus that needs to mature for nine months and be born successfully, in order to be ’saved’ into the new family.
Pat // May 31, 2009 at 10:54 PM
@Bush Tea
Man, I know you are gifted even though you are just a lil ole cor’meer boy.
Dont forget that GP is two Doctors rolled into one. A medical doctor and a theological one too. So, of course, we mere underlings can be easily dismissed, but he persists in explaining.
Why the Bible is so confusing? Two possibilities: the translations and/or the cut and paste jobs done through out history. I would lean towards the latter as I think this was done for deceptive purposes, as a means of control. Only the ‘chosen’ could then interpret the word…, only the ‘chosen’ know what is meant…, only the ‘chosen’ could divide!
However, it seems to me that the ‘chosen’ like Zoe and GP, must become frustrated when people like you, Not Saved, BAFBFP, ROK and Hopi, read, reason and become enlightened in their own way or another, which is against their (the chosen) indoctrinated way.
Now I think that is one confusing mess I wrote. lol
Bush Tea // June 1, 2009 at 12:30 AM
@Pat
I do not find your comment confusing at all. You are your usual lucid self.
However…
There is another possible reason that you missed, why the bible is confusing.
It was so designed!
Most of the translations were independently done from original manuscripts. However ALL of the translations AND the original manuscript are confusing….
The bible is actually an advanced manual, provided for students who have completed the basic requirement, which is a mandatory prerequisite.
You are also very much on the right track when you suggest that such enlightenment is very much reserved for the ‘chosen’…
…so my point is that a proper understanding of the bible has absolutely nothing to do with years of study, intellect, reference manuals, or church teachings…..this BY DESIGN.
Not Saved // June 1, 2009 at 1:31 AM
BT wrote…
“Most of the translations were independently done from original manuscripts.
However ALL of the translations AND the original manuscript are confusing….”
——————
First statement is incorrect.
Second claim cannot be made.
Can anyone think why?
Bush Tea // June 1, 2009 at 7:55 AM
@ Not Saved
I hope that this will not involve any complex equations you hear? cause my old brain well past that stage…LOL
….all I am saying NS, is that the various translations were not serially done as Pat suggested, compounding errors and mistranslations etc.
…as to the confusing claim – Of course it can be made by someone who knows that this is the design intent. The fact that some do not find it confusing does not negate the argument.
…just because you and MME understand complex maths and Fortran does not negate a claim that these are confusing topics…
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 9:41 AM
Pat
There are a few major reasons why folk find the Bible confusing? They don’t study it! & they do not have the Spirit (the Resident Tutor and Author within.) In addition folk who don’t understand the Bible generally possess a great deal of intellectual pride. Also it is clearly taught in Luke 9, that when the seed of the Word is sown, that the devil comes and snatches the seed away.
When I get the opportunity I teach Biochemistry or Pharmacology to Medical Students. To do this I have to STUDY! I met a Pathologist with over 40 years experience, but before each class he teaches, he gets up early in the morning to STUDY! But folk will tell you that 2 Timothy 2:15 ought to be dismissed! You need not study the book, and by osmosis you will understand it all.
It is clear to me from associating with others who study and teach the Word well, that intellect is not as important as STUDY & THE SPIRIT. 1 Corinthians 2:9-12 makes this very clear. I have never in 40 plus years, heard men or women who study the Word or have the Spirit, spew out the volume of utter nonsense that I have read on this forum. Here is what the Scripture teaches. ( But I guess those faithful dtudents of the Word must be “chosen” or “indoctrinated” in our way.)
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Folk who don’t understand the Bible generally possess a great deal of intellectual pride. They think the Bible is just another book that can be easily understood, although they found Math and Latin difficult at school. And when some of them had and still have great difficulty with the English language.
I found that I had to make an effort to understand Pathology, and Histology and Physiology and all the other Basic Sciences to become a Doctor. I found that such study required patience, as I was not reading a Mills & Boons or a Harlequin Romance or Loius Armor etc.
I found too that to properly understand Pathology I had to properly understand Histology first. And to understand Gynaecology that I needed to first understand the Anatomy (both Gross & Microscopic) and the Physiology of the female reproductive tract. I found that there was a progression in acquiring this knowledge. I have found that studying the Bible requires the same patience and progress!
I can without fear of contradiction tell you that, you WILL NOT be proficient in understanding Pathology if you do not properly understand Histology. Nor have I met any Gynaecologist that did not understand the basic Anatomy (both Gross & Microscopic) and the Physiology of the female reproductive tract, and who did not learn in THE PRESCRIBED WAY USING THE RECOMMENDED TEXTS FROM THE PROPER INSTITUTIONS.
Yet you tell me that BT,. Not Saved, BAFBFP, and Hopi, read, reason and have become enlightened in their own way or another which is against their (the chosen) indoctrinated way? The result is obvious.
I don’t think that either Zoe or I are chosen at all. Rather there is evidence that we have patiently followed a progressive pathway of STUDY to acquire the information that we have gleaned. in obedience to 2 Timothy 2:15, so that we would be equipped to try to obey the tenets of 1 Peter 3:15.
It is untrue that only some chosen people can interpret the Word of God, correctly! I have been hearing this nonsense and sarcastic rhetoric from my father for FORTY years! I have not found this to be true. I have found that even little pre-teen children can understand how to compare Scripture with scripture.
The folk I have heard teach and preach the Word with clarity, and the books that I have read explain scripture with clarity. No one has taught that Jonah escaped in a submarine or that God came down on Sinai in a spacecraft.
Are all the Bible scholars and teachers whose books Zoe and I have read and the other teachers to whom I have listened or read ALL WRONG? And those who have not studied by their own admission ALL CORRECT?
It is people who create the confusion with their intellectual pride. They say Why should a loving God send sinners to hell? That does not make sense to me! So who are you? Does it have to make sense to you for you to believe, when on the other hand most folk don’t understand two hoots about Physics, but believe in the benefits of Physics. Most folk who benefit from contemporary pharmaceuticals or even natural herbs, also know nothing about Pharmacology.
NO one says that a doctor or lawyer is “chosen” or indoctrinated. But persons who love the Word and study it are “chosen” or indoctrinated in their way. Does not make sense to me.
Because some folk cant understand the difficult texts or apparent contradictory texts, they threw up their arms, and say that the Bible is mysterious, confusing etc etc But when others try to explain how they understand, or what they read to understand they are said to be are “chosen” or indoctrinated in their way. Does not make sense to me.
Most folk who don’t understand are intellectually dishonest, and clearly under the influence of the devil, who is very present and active on this blog! He absolutely hates to see the Word being rightly divided on this forum, and he is actively seeking to thwart it.
But I will now declare on this forum that
1 – The Bible teaches the total depravity of Mankind. ALL ARE SINNERS .
2 It teaches that LOST MEN CAN NOT SAVE THEMSELVES FROM THE WRATH OF GOD TO COME. And this whether you understand it the way you think it should be understood.
3 GOD HAS PROVIDED A REMEDY FOR MAN’s SIN AND SALVATION.
4. JESUS IS THAT WAY AND THE ONLY WAY.
This is the basic simple message of the Bible. I have personally found this to be true and have accepted this message, and I have personally met many who have done the same.
I have found that none of these people have difficulty in undertanding the heart of what the Bible seeks to teach. Do we understand all the difficult texts. I dont think so. But we dont talk nonsense about what we do not know either.
Many people across the USA and around the world are leaving thier denominational churches and meeting together around the Word of God, and seeking to understand its doctrine, rather than being confused by the denominational dogma from hither, thither and yon……….for the devil is the author and purveyor of confusion and the notion that the Bible is meant to be confusing.
How I long to see his end, and that of his followers. How happy I am to know that this will be verry soon.
Bush Tea // June 1, 2009 at 10:24 AM
I wonder who is getting GP hot under the collar?!? ROTFL
************************************
Most folk who don’t understand are intellectually dishonest, and clearly under the influence of the devil, who is very present and active on this blog!
*************************************
…come on GP!! why can’t some folks who are confused ‘just be confused’ – and trying to find logical answers to the many questions that they may genuinely have?
…just because you and Zoe “dont talk nonsense about what we do not know….” does not mean that all of us should blindly accept illogical dogma that we do not understand….. that sounds like idiocy to the Bushman.
Why not give us the benefit of the doubt and help us to HONESTLY understand the genesis of your faith… or concede defeat and let us get back to chatting about old school days or something.
Zoe // June 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM
What is so confusing about the Bible!
Its fundamental message and focus, after the fall into SIN by Adam in Genesis, is Almighty God’s plan of Redemption for all of mankind.
The Fact of Sin.
A. Creation Declares it.
All of nature declares that something IS wrong. The contrast between life and death, harmony and discord, beauty and ugliness, light and darkness, declare the fact of SIN.
B. Human History Declares it.
The briefest view of human history with its chaos and confusion, war and bloodshed, the spirit of hate and murder, covetousness, moral corruption and dominance indicates that something is WRONG in the nations of the earth.
C. Human Logic Declares it.
To deny the fact of SIN in the human race would be an insult to all logic.
D. Human Conscience Declares it.
This is closely linked with human logic, but conscience is a further witness to the fact of SIN.
E. Human Experience Declares it.
When one reads the list of horrible SINS in Scripture such as Romans 1:21-32 and Mark 7:20-21 in the light of the news today, there is abundant evidence of SIN’S expression in human experience, Immorality, Crime, Violence, Perversion and all forms of lawlessness abound. Sin desires to express itself and the corruption of society in modern civilization IS evidence of the fact of SIN. Scripture indicate that this will increase in the last days (Matt. 24: 12; II Tim 3:1-5).
F. Scriptures Declare It.
The highest court of appeals is God’s Word. The bible declares the universality of SIN, that ALL men are sinners in God’s sight, needing salvation ( Psa. 14: 1-3; 53: 1-3; Romans 5:12). Romans 3:23 – “ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” The Scriptures show that there are TWO major mysteries at work in the universe and all other mysteries referred to in the Word of God find their place under these two. These two mysteries are called, “The Mystery of Godliness” and “The Mystery of Iniquity” (I Tim 3:16, II Thess. 2:7).
Thus, good and evil, light and darkness, life and death, godliness and iniquity are at work in the universe. All created beings, angelic or human, will make their CHOICE and take their place under ONE mystery or the OTHER. Their choice will settle their eternal destiny!
God in His Word, the Bible, has given all mankind a choice to make, LIFE or DEATH, in either Heaven or Hell; He cannot impose Himself on anyone, the choice is ours to make.
Therefore:
“For God so LOVED the world (mankind) that He gave His Only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish, BUT have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) emphasis added.
Multitudes over the centuries, without understand the complexities of deeper theological reflection, have come to Christ, in utter simplicity, knowing that we all are SINNERS, and by simple childlike ‘faith’ repented and accepted and received Jesus as personal Saviour and Lord.
Forget all of the deeper theology, don’t let it confuse you, that’s not for everyone, just ‘believe’ and He will forgive you, if you sincerely Repent.
We all exercise ‘faith’ every day in our lives, in many different ways, if we had to understand many things, before we ‘acted’ we would never go outside in the street.
Stick to the basic, fundamental message of God’s Word, He Loves us, He has made full provision in Jesus for our forgiveness, Salvation and eternal life. Just BELIEVE!
Not Saved // June 1, 2009 at 11:04 AM
@BT,
Actually, Pat’s claims are closer to the reality than you may realise. None of the modern translations are direct from original manuscripts.
It is not possible to claim the original manuscripts are also confusing for the simple reason we do not have access to them to make such an evaluation.
In any case, I do not think the “confusion” comes from the translations process (which serves to confuse what exactly was original!) nor do I think it was “by design”.
The confusion arises because one places supernatural claims on a very man made (in every way) book !
David // June 1, 2009 at 11:27 AM
Forgive the ignorance of the BU household at the Whitsuntide period, a significant festival in the Christian calendar?
The question which BT continues to inject in the discussion regarding the need to study the Bilble to understand it, should it not be placed in the context of the times?
Are we correct to say that the books of the Bible were scripted by the Scribes so that ordinary folks of the day might understand? Are we correct to say that many of the ordinary people of the day could not read?
GP and Zoe please go easy on us man!
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 11:34 AM
Bush Tea
I can assure you that I have not got hot under the collar at all.
My experience, and that of others who have gone door to door or witnessed to others here and there will agree that as I have said that “most folk who don’t understand the Bible are intellectually dishonest.” These are folk who are intellectuals- they CAN UNDERSTAND much of what you are saying, but because of SIN in their lives, they will dismiss you as a nut, or fanatic.
How to I know that many who pretend not to understand are really running from the Word because of SIN in their lives? Well I love to ask them “ WHAT IS IT THAT STOPS YOU FROM ACCEPTING THE MESSAGE OF THE BIBLE.” I find that if you do so, they will give you an honest answer. I learned as a teen THIS BOOK WILL KEEP YOU FROM SIN – SIN WILL KEEP YOU FROM THIS BOOK.
But 1 John 2 :1-2 says Chapter 2
1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our’s only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I John 1:8-10 says
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Bush Tea, you can roll on the floor and laugh as long as you wish, but I have no doubt in my mind that many folk who don’t understand the Bible are clearly under the influence of the devil, and that the devil, himself is very present and active on this blog!
Luke 8:12 tells us
12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
On the authority of Jesus’ teaching we read here that when some hear the Word, THEN THE DEVIL COMES AND SNATCHES THE WORD OUT OF THEIR HEARTS LEST THEY SHOULD BELIEVE!
I have nothing to add to Jesus’ opinion. Why should you BT
Many believers are confused by many things too, but they keep on believing. They don’t scoff and mock, and they know that there are no logical answers to many questions that they may genuinely have. WHY SHOULD THE CREATOR GOD CARE ONE HOOT ABOUT ME is a reasonable question. Do you have a logical answer?
WHY SHOULD CHRIST WHO KNEW NO SIN BE MADE SIN FOR ME AND DIE ON A ROUGH TREE ON GOLGOTHA’s HILL is another reasonable question. Do you have a logical answer?
WHY DOES GOD NOT IMMEDIATELY STRIKE DOWN SCOFFERS AND MOCKERS is a reasonable question. Do you have a logical answer?
And we can go on.
Just yesterday morning a lady whom I respect for the questions she asks about the Word admitted that certain things are difficult to understand. All believers know that, but we continue to STUDY, and attend Bible Study sessions. We read , we listen to good Bible teachers, we pray about that we don’t understand.
I do not talk nonsense about what I do not know. I keep quiet about things until I know them well!
You can not in fairness accuse me of not honestly and patiently seeking to share the genesis of my faith, because I have been faithfully doing this all along. I have repeatedly mentioned books and teachers who helped my development. I have repeatedly spoken of the tools and different methods of Bible study. I have given Word studies. I have had Hermeneutics principles posted. I have not much on this forum in an effort to facilitate an understanding of the Bible despite the nasty things said to me on this blog, and the mocking and scoffing.
I am sure that the devil would like Zoe and I to concede defeat on this forum, just as you suggest BT, and stop posting because we cant get the intellectual’s on this forum who think that STUDYING is the wrong way to understand the Bible. We know that Satan would love more than anything to erase our voice from this forum, but you can mock me or scoff at my experience and those of others in our quest to understand the Word of God and rightly divide it. You can roll on the floor and laugh til Jesus comes, and you can accuse me of getting hot under the collar, when in fact I am here calmly giving my opinion, but you wont succeed!
I know that to get me hot under the collar is your aim, and that of the devil, so that you can discredit me more than has been done on this forum already. But you wont succeed! Im sorry!
Bush Tea // June 1, 2009 at 11:51 AM
Ha Ha Ha – man David your back broad…thanks for stepping in here and helping the bushman tek some of these licks…
@ Not Saved
Good points. But you are behaving just like GP when you dismiss my proposal that the bible was DESIGNED to be confusing by just casually saying that “nor do I think it was “by design””.
I forgive you because you don’t believe any of this stuff anyhow….. whereas GP claims to believe, but dismisses all the references IN THE SAME BOOK that SAYS exactly what the bushman is saying.
…I mean you can’t possible be more specific to a direct question than was Jesus when he answered his followers in private as to why he spoke in parables to the masses….an identical position to that taken in Isaiah.
Actually, my own personal understanding of this matter is not even based on what the bible says, but on an understanding of the overall blueprint.
As an engineer, I am sure that you understand the fact that an overall grasp of the total project brings special perspective to the various niggling issues that arise on site from time to time….
@ David
Cuddear David, don’t make it look so simple by bringing in the fact that only recently (and in some limited places) can most people actually read and write…. and that therefore any fairly intelligent engineer would have designed an important system like this WITHOUT the need to read, study, write …..or divide…
….tek care you don’t go and bring back Carlos too….
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 12:01 PM
David
I think that perhaps I have, unlike, Zoe been going a bit too easy.
To answer your questions
The books of the Bible were NOT scripted by the Scribes, because scribes per se did not exist until the period of Ezra. Ezra is the first and only OT man to be called a scribe. The term scribe is seen mainly in the Gospels as scribes like Pharisees, and Saducess etc were inventions that developed in the intertestamental period.
The proof texts for authorship of the scriptures has been cited on this thread a few times.
That the OT persons could read, and did indeed understand the written word is clearly obvious from several passages. King Josiah, for example understood the scroll of the law that was read to him, and its implications. Daniel in his later years towards the end of the Babylonian captivity, knew from studying the prophets that that period was at is completion, and while wondering what should happen next, he sought answrs from God in prayer.
All serious Bible students interpret the Bible in the context of the times in which it was written. If you read serious Bible commentaries, you will find that the study of a book, begins generally with an Introduction to a book which follows a particular pattern which I will note here:-
1- AUTHOR
2. THOSE TO WHOM THE BOOK WAS ADDRESSED
3-TIME OF WRITING
4. PURPOSE FOR WRITING
5.TEACHINGS ABOUT GOD, THE FATHER
6.TEACHINGS ABOUT JESUS AND SALVATION BY REDEMPTION
7. THE CENTRAL TRUTH OF THE BOOK
8- KEY WORDS
9- KEY VERSES
10- PRINCIPAL CHARACTERS
11. OUTLINE (S) OF THE BOOK
Such general information sets the stage or context for studying the book. But when such is mentioned on BU by those who have done this and advocate such, the idea is met with scoffing. You don’t need reference books etc
Serious Bible students will tell you not to lift a text out of its context to prove a context, even though this is a common Bajan pastime.
Serious Bible students will tell you to
1- TRY TO ASCERTAIN WHAT THE TEXT SAYS
2- TRY TO ASCERTAIN WHAT THE TEXT MEANS. This may require to look up the Greek or Hebrew in difficult texts, or read a REFERNCE BOOK to ascertain the historical background. E,g Could Jesus have avoided going through Samaria in John 4? So then since he could, then what does the word “needs” in that text.
3- Only when the above has been done can the text be applied. This is basic exegesis.
Bush Tea // June 1, 2009 at 12:18 PM
@GP
All jokes aside!!
I can tell you honestly that in no way am I interested in trying to discredit you.
My simple wish for you, would be for you to open your mind and contemplate the possibility that your ‘truth’ may in fact be incomplete.
….that the many questions that you admit that you are unable to answer may be telling you that your beliefs are flawed.
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 12:21 PM
Not Saved
Re
Actually, Pat’s claims are closer to the reality than you may realise. None of the modern translations are direct from original manuscripts.
I suppose you know that the KJV of 1611 was translated from the Vulgate and Septuagingt long before then.
I suppose that from your vast reading on the subject of Canonicity that you know that the translators of the Vulgate and Septuagingt had fairly good manuscripts with which to work.
I am forced to agree with you that the “confusion” comes NOT from the translations process (after all the confusion has to do with what has been translated) nor do I think it was “by design”.
I disagree with you, however, that the confusion arises because one places supernatural claims on a very man made (in every way) book ! After all most of us will agree with what is written in today’s newspapers and this years man made best sellers!
The Jews did not have difficulty in interpreting the Law prior to the intertestamental period! That is very clear from studying the OT.
Jesus said that the Jewish leaders of his day such as the Saducees Scribes Pharisees etc were misinterpreting the law because they had added their traditions to the law. This notion has been supported by the many books that reveal this.
The early church did not have problems with Jesus teachings or what Acts 2: 42calls the Apostle’s doctrines either. But Jesus, Peter, Paul, John & Jude predicted that there would be false teachers that would arise. The early church remained rather pure even through its persecution.
After 313 massive error and dogma entered Christendom, and Christianity itself has suffered. Every different denomination that has arisen out of the Reformation has done so because of , and is characterized by some deliberate misinterpretation or dogma.
Certainly when the Bible says that NOW are we the teknoi (chidren of God) in I John 3:2 it means NOW……. Not later. Anyone with even a passing understanding of John’s theology in the Gospel and Epistles will notice that even John’s eschatology is put in the present tense.
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 12:36 PM
BT
There is no scripture that says that the Bible was DESIGNED to be confusing.
You love to quote a text with out explaining its context to prove a doctrine.
All serious Bible students know that this is a no no! Especially when we can show that if you put this along side OTHER RELATED scriptures that his dogma is debunked.
BT writes …I mean you can’t possible be more specific to a direct question than was Jesus when he answered his followers in private as to why he spoke in parables to the masses….an identical position to that taken in Isaiah.
Did Jesus routinely and always speak to the masses in parables?
Did Jesus do his entire tour of teaching in 3 years of ministry by repeating the 19 (some say 23) parables recorded.
Is not such a view contradicted by the reading all of the four gospels?
Did Isaiah do all his teaching in parables or in a way that his hearers could not understand?
Is the entire Bible taught in parables. Did we not all understand easily the story of David & Goliath etc? and other parts of the Bible een as children?
What exactly does this mean BT, and I quote
Actually, my own personal understanding of this matter is not even based on what the bible says, but on an understanding of the overall blueprint.
Is this one of your parables? What blue prints are you speaking about?
Re Cuddear David, don’t make it look so simple by bringing in the fact that only recently (and in some limited places) can most people actually read and write…
Is it not generally known that the Sumerians and folk in the culture from which Abraham came were reading writing and more than this?
. and that therefore any fairly intelligent engineer would have designed an important system like this WITHOUT the need to read, study, write …..or divide…
Does the scripture say or Not that it must be STUDIED & RIGHTLY DIVIDED or not. in 2 Tim2:15
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 12:43 PM
BT
Re
My simple wish for you, would be for you to open your mind and contemplate the possibility that your ‘truth’ may in fact be incomplete.
I KNOW THAT I DONT KNOW ALL
I KNOW TOO THAT IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR ME TO KNOW ALL OR UNDERSTAND ALL TO BE COMPETENT IN MY PROFESSION OR IN RELATING TO OTHERS ABOUT GOD’s WORD.
You might be surprised to know that most reasdonable folk dont expect to understand EVERYTHING ABOUT THE BIBLE. MOST ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE STUDIED IT THE MOST!
Re
….that the many questions that you admit that you are unable to answer may be telling you that your beliefs are flawed.
This statement is a non sequitur.
The questions that I can not answer tells me that I dont understand all, have not studied suficiently, and that God does not need for us to understand all of the Bible to love obey or believe his Word.
David // June 1, 2009 at 12:55 PM
Thanks GP!
We used the word scribe/scribes in a punning sense i.e. the word was written by the educated clan of those times but you subsequently answered the question about interpreting the word in the context of the times. We don’t 100% accept this position but agree that it is plausible. It is reasonable that to conclude that even making allowance for inaccuracies in translation and idioms etc the formatting of the word in the bible requires an above average effort in application on the part of the ordinary man to divide the word.
Hopi // June 1, 2009 at 1:49 PM
@GP……Are you aware that there were other Jesuses before your Jesus the Christ? Why did the authors of the Bible give you this particular one when there was Jesus ben Ananias who was also arrested and beaten by the Roman, Jesus ben Sirach and Jesus ben Pandira who like your Christ was hung on a tree on the eve of ‘Passover.’ Why this particular one?
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 2:10 PM
Hopi I am indeed aware that there have been many others with the name Jesus since, and that there are even some today.
Bush Tea // June 1, 2009 at 2:26 PM
@GP
Why do you find it necessary to forsake your normal reasonable and scientific approach when faced with challenges to your faith?
How could it be a non sequitur to suggest that your inability to explain (to me simple) questions could indicate that your beliefs are flawed?
…this is standard scientific practice… You develop a theory to explain an unknown phenomenon- then you test the theory by asking the hard questions.
A good, sound theory provides appropriate and sound answers.
One does not say “forget the unanswered questions, my theory stands….”
What non sequitur what?!?
Even worse for your argument, you correctly upbraided Not Saved by explaining that practically everyone who read today’s newspaper can agree on the facts of what we read. Yet it is difficult to find 10% of any sample group to agree on anything in the bible.
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU? … that we need to study more????
….give me a break GP. That is the way it was designed by a genius engineer….
…unless you want to tell me that the God who created everything cannot inspire a book that most can understand?
The early church did not have problem understanding because (like the disciples) they were specially endowed with the requirement for understanding….. not because the message was straightforward.
I will refer you again to Jesus’s response to the disciples about the sign of his coming in Matthew –
– If the bible is there to explain the gospel, why would Jesus say to his disciples that one of the signs of his coming will be that the GOSPEL will be preached to all the world as a testimony – AND THEN THE END WILL COME. (Mat 24:14)
….how could this be possible if all these ages the bible has been providing the message of the Gospel?
Hopi // June 1, 2009 at 3:05 PM
@GP….and before! Was he the first Jesus to be persecuted and hung? How do you know that this is the real McCoy?
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 3:57 PM
Bush Tea
You seem to think that you are studying Science here, but we are studying the Bible The Bible is not studied as you study Science. I believe you know that.
At any rate that is how I study the Bible.
As a relatively young person, I liked what Martin Luther said. That is “ I study my Bible like how I pick apples. I shake the whole tree; then I look under every branch twig and leaf”
I studied the Bible by first having a survey method, and yes dividing ii into 16 sections. Some teachers advocate 12 sections. That is how you shake the tree, Some believers try to shake the tree every year.
Then I do BOOK studies complete with an introduction, as mentioned in an earlier post. For this I refer to as many commentaries I can get. This is now easier and cheaper as there is a lot of good information online.
Then I do chapter by chapter studies of the book, according to a format given me as a young believer in 1970. Then I do verse by verse studies, or engage in such in Bible readings or Bible Studies. And yes I do have questions, which I write down, and sometimes I see other questions in my reading that I also write down also. Some (not all) are answered in my reading of the Bible and other sources.
Then I do word studies, biographical studies, topical studies, typological studies as demanded by the particular area of the Bible. You can call this message scientific if you wish. It has worked for me. It is certainly methodical, and not willy nilly, slap dash or hodge podge.
I don’t develop any theory to explain nothing in the Bible. And I don t ask no hard questions to confuse myself. They are enough hard questions in good books, with the several answers to them and explanations using scripture and word studies to explain why answer 1 might be preferred to answer 12.
After reading it methodically or consulting the several tools and references I have found the answers to most of my questions, and those posed in the numerous essays I had to write in my more formal theological studies.
You are welcome to study as you please and develop theories and ask hard questions.and even begin a new denomination as a result, if you please. But I am not about to let you teach me how I should study the Word Sir! Nor change the method that has worked for me and countless others from all the world that are deemed to be “chosen” and “indoctrinated.”
Re it is difficult to find 10% of any sample group to agree on anything in the bible.
I have already outlined on this thread today the principle reasons why the Bible is not understood. If you don’t think it should be studied what can I say? If you think that the Spirit is not needed, or that the devil snatches away the seed of the Word as Jesus taught, what can I say?
But I do know that 2 Tim 2 :15 says to STUDY and RIGHTLY DIVIDE! Being a very simple chap I try to do that; and regret that I don’t do it enough.
Re The early church did not have problem understanding because (like the disciples) they were specially endowed with the requirement for understanding….. not because the message was straightforward.
The early church were no more specially endowed with the requirement for understanding than the contemporary church. In fact the converse is true, if you study the NT properly. Likewise the message is no less straightforward today.
Re …unless you want to tell me that the God who created everything cannot inspire a book that most can understand?
I do think that the Bible can be understood. I have met, taught, been taught by, and listened to many who apparently do understand much of the Bible. Some of them have questions too! I certainly understand well those sections that I have studied well. And conversely understand poorly those areas that I have studied poorly!
It is very clear to me that you don’t understand the reference that you cite from the Olivet Discourse. You seem to have things a little mixed up………as usual.
Many Bible stories and passages do illustrate and explain the gospel message that Christ came to die and save a depraved mankind. That has nothing to do with Jesus stating that one of the signs of his coming will be that the GOSPEL will be preached to all the world as a testimony – AND THEN THE END WILL COME. (Mat 24:14).
Jesus is here intimating that as His coming approaches that the Gospel will be preached to all the world. And that is in fact true! The gospel is in deed being preached today to all the world as it has never been preached before, primarily because of the available technology.
The Word is being translated today to more dialects and tongues than it has ever been before. I worship with and have met missionaries out in the field who are involved in this work.
The Bible continues to explain or illustrate the gospel message by several of its stories and passages just as it always has. But you will now, no doubt dispute this simple fact and true explanation by a theory and hard questions.
Zoe // June 1, 2009 at 4:37 PM
GP, As I have posted before:
“Ignorance does have something to be said for IT; it gives rise to about 9/10th of the conversational output of the world.”
So it be!
David // June 1, 2009 at 4:41 PM
Zoe
Let the record show that BU agrees with those who think your down the nose approach does little to help divide the word for the ignorant.
Technician // June 1, 2009 at 4:51 PM
@ GP….. To which denomination do you belong?
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 5:49 PM
Non denominational. Was Baptist after starting as Anglican til age 16.
Bush Tea // June 1, 2009 at 5:49 PM
@ GP
..well well well!!! you and Zoe are truly amazing folks.
Are you two aware that Jesus said that it is by your fruit that you are known? why the aggressive responses? why the disrespect Zoe?
Thank heavens that this is only a blog, otherwise it seems that, like the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes of Jesus’s day, wanna two would have the bushman crucified…. LOL.
Since we are taking off the gloves, tell me this GP…..
If you are indeed right, and THE God who created everything is your personal Saviour – who are all these jokers that keep ‘unfairing’ you all the time? LOL
….these officials in Barbados, church members in St Kitts, etc?
…compare the bushman situation…
….skipper!!! nowadays when people even look as if they intend to cross swords with the bushman I have to run quick and start praying for them and begging BBE not to ‘tek them on’…. cause I see what has happened to all those who tried to downpress the bushman in the past…and it ain’t pleasant.
Would you not think that one way that you can KNOW that you are associating with THE Creator is probably when you can honestly say (like another David of old) ‘yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear nothing…..
my cup runs over….. etc
…so who are these jokers that run you from ’bout here again…?
…and why did you not call for reinforcements???
Not Saved // June 1, 2009 at 5:59 PM
Sorry Georgie I cant agree with you on your claim of “reliable manuscripts”
The NT in the KJV was translated from the Texus Receptus, a series of Greek NT which originated from work of Erasmus.
The manuscripts that Erasmus worked from were not of the best quality. They were simply the ones available in Basel at the time and dated from the 12th century (1100 years after the originals!)
The KJV translation did not use the septuagint for the OT and only made limited use of the vulgate
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 6:13 PM
BT
BT
I have made no aggressive responses. I have just sated truths as I see them.
I am not fighting no one on this blog. Have sought only to answer questions sincerely and accurately as I can.
If you are indeed right, and THE God who created everything is your personal Saviour – who are all these jokers that keep ‘unfairing’ you all the time? I often wonder why sometimes; but guess what I notice that these folk are not prospering at all!
And 2 Tim 3:12 does say Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. And James 1 does teach that we WIL:L be tested!
One couple that once unfaired me 10 years ago ; the wife is now blind and running from the FBI with 11 counts on her name, and her husband who claimed to be my friend is running also with 6 counts on his head. I had forgotten about them, until I heard this report only recently and verified it online!
Your quotation of Psalm 23:4 is indeed germane.
Whereas I would love to be nearer my mother and sons and grand children, I am fairly happy where I am, and the St Kitts situation has only opened doors for me to teach in places as far as Rarotonga in the Cook Islands, and brought me into fellowship here with believers more knowledgeable and in all respects more worthy than those envious persons in St Kitts.
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 6:22 PM
NS
Whereas you do have the right to disagree, I am unable to argue with you more acurately as I have no real references with me on that score.
However, I love the KJV and along with the other “books and parhments” that I use, I am able to interpret the Bible reasonably well. And so can you and others, if you work at it, in some methodical way best suited to you……in much the same way that you aquired your professional qualifications.
Bush Tea // June 1, 2009 at 7:08 PM
…and further to GP’s response NS, from my own perspective, it matters not from where various bible versions are translated since their true purpose is not in any way diminished…(quite the contrary…)
I real sorry if you folks feel that God has to wait for some education system to teach persons to read, write, reason and divide before choosing that person to understand his purpose….
….the very thought!!!
“….because my people have wicked hearts, and dirty minds, and no regard for God or even other peoples, therefore with stammering lips and a foreign tongue will I (God) speak to these people.
Thus the word of the Lord to them was made precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little so that they be confused, and slip and fall backwards, and be broken and lost.
(….Bush Tea’s translation of Isaiah 28.)
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 7:26 PM
BT
No one has said or thinks that ” God has to wait for some education system to teach persons to read, write, reason and divide before choosing that person to understand his purpose….”
But what has been said is if you study the Word ion a systematic way- whatever way you chose, you will understand more of it more clearly and more quickly! And that is a fact.
For salvation all one need do is accept
that one is lost in sin,
that one can not save themselves
that God has provided Jesus to pay the price of one’s sin, and that
all one need do is accept into your heart by God’ s grace through faith in Christ.
Understanding of the Word will come with time, once this start is made!
Bush Tea // June 1, 2009 at 7:55 PM
OK GP.
One way or the other we will find out fairly shortly…. We live in the most interesting time of all history…
…I enjoyed the back and forth.
LOL.
Not Saved // June 1, 2009 at 7:56 PM
BT wrote:
“it matters not from where various bible versions are translated since their true purpose is not in any way diminished”
—–
Yes that does seem to be very true.
Georgie Porgie // June 1, 2009 at 8:03 PM
We certainly live in the most interesting time of all history…thats for sure!
Peace!
Zoe // June 1, 2009 at 9:24 PM
@David, When I use the word ‘Ignorant’ or ‘Ignorance’ re some on BU, I mean lacking true knowledge and understanding as it relates to the Word of God, the Bible, BUT, some then try to pontificate on matters re this subject in true ignorance, stubbornly refusing to learn and be corrected.
Are we all not ignorant on most things; meaning not qualified in a particular subject matter, well, it is even more so with God’s Word, as it can only be ’spiritually’ discerned by those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, yet, simple enough to understand its basic message.
“Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.”
Pat // June 1, 2009 at 9:29 PM
Well, well, what a night!
@GP
What intellectual what? It seems to me that Zoe is the intellectual on this blog. He/she is always in the pulpit, knows all, is always right and talks down to us mere mortals.
You on the otherhand, when it comes to answering questions reminds me of a boxer in the ring – bobbing and
weaving.
It seems to me that the problem with you and Zoe and Carlos and Grenville, etc., is that you have practically put yourselves in a box with the bible, closed the lid and refuses to see what is happening outside. Anything you dont understand, you gloss over.
Me, on the other hand, as an analyst was trained to question every iota of information, look for more and if I could not find it, ask why; seek out alternatives and most importantly look at the cons first, then the pros.
I am no intellectual, but was told by my DG (he was an engineer) that I was the only one who did not need to think “outside” the box, as he thought I was never in it in the first place. No wonder I got all the high profile assignments with international travel. I was the only non scientist in the group. I guess I brought some balance to the Branch.
However, I hope your Saviour comes soon and does not keep you waiting too long. Imagine waiting generations for the “rapture” only to be disappointed. You may be surprised that it will not be as you and Zoe thinks, but QUITE different.
Bushtea may be on to something there, I prefer his reasoning on the end times. He may have a better understanding of the Book than you think. He can quote you verse for verse and he had no study guides, scholarly texts, etc., etc. He just questions and thinks, not taking things verbatim, nor at face value.
Before I go, what nonsense that was about people afraid of the Word because of their sin? I thought you have been telling us all along that your Jesus DIED to save us from our sins? So what you talking bout, eh?
Georgie Porgie // June 2, 2009 at 11:10 AM
Pat
I certainly agree with you on the basis of the etymology of the word “intellectual” that Zoe is indeed an intellectual. Like the Bible scholars whom I have read and listened to teach he has given evidence that he has studied and read the Word and books about the subject. He quotes and apparently owns the books that I see listed in the bibliographies of the commentaries I have read, and in the libraries of many believers whose homes I have visited. You see other believers all over the world do actually study the Word seriously and love to do so.
There are men in the world that love golf, or horse racing, or gambling or whatever and do so with a passion. No one hates them or ridicules them. There are also men and women too, who read and study the Bible with a passion too. Such folk are considered idiots, and as I have been asked “What do you get out of that? “
Zoe doers know a lot, and is right about what he says about the Word also.
You show your intelligence and do me proud when you say of me “You on the otherhand, when it comes to answering questions reminds me of a boxer in the ring – bobbing and weaving” Because you are saying (even though unwittingly) that I “EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH which was once delivered unto the saints” as is the instruction in Jude 3. You see the word “contend” means to get back up and continue just as a BOXER does! Bet you didn’t know that did you? ( My favorite line from the film Iron Eagle.)
I don’t think that Zoe and Carlos and Grenville, etc have a problem at all nor have me put ourselves in a any box with the bible, closed the lid and refuses to see what is happening outside. Anything you dont understand, you gloss over. The real truth is that there some things that are hard to be understood (c.f 2 Peter 3:16) and we accept that. Having studied and not found the answers, we have moved on and mastered those things which we do understand. This is how any sensible student studies any subject. Smart students aim to know a little about ALL areas of the syllabus (so that you can always scratch out a pass) then they seek to master as many parts of the syllabus as they can as they seek to get the best grade that they can. Similarly sensible Bible students do the same, and master the so many areas that they do understand.
On the other hand, those who complain that they find the Bible confusing read and quote pieces here and there, when and then, in a willy nilly, slap dash, hodge podge fashion, and having understood little then do exactly as Peter says in 2 Peter 3:16! Peter says that the unlearned (with respect to God’s Word) and unstable wrest what they don’t understand, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
I don’t think that Peter under the influence of the Holy Spirit could have said it better. Do you? Clearly your methodology that has worked in your life’s work has not worked in your understanding of the Bible (of course you do not care about this.)
Pat I sincerely hope that the Saviour comes soon and does not keep you waiting too long. Re Imagine waiting generations for the “rapture” only to be disappointed. You may be surprised that it will not be as you and Zoe thinks, but QUITE different.
No it wont be different Pat. He came the first time right on time too. All the several promises concerning his first advent were fulfilled as Paul says in Galatians 4:4, when the fullness of time was come (pleroma en chronos). And he will come exactly on time the second time to, and for those who look for his appearing.
You make me laugh, really laugh .Any Jackass can quote Scripture. Even the devil quoted scripture to Jesus in the temptations in Matt 4 & Luke 4. The devil and his cohorts are good at quoting scripture………….but do they quote it correctly or out of context? Do they understand what they are saying. Bushtea has so far quoted nothing of substance on the subject of the end times. But you obviously don’t know that do you? Bajans love to quote the Bible out of context with authority, to sound knowledgeable.
Good Bible students don’t just take things verbatim, nor at face value, they investigate the texts to really understand, hence the study guides and texts which facilitates. I have myself written study guides on Ruth 2 John and the Books on the post-exhilic prophets.
Actually I find that it is poor Bible students and unbelievers who tend to take the Bible at face value and verbatim. E.g When Jesus says in John 10 that he is the door of the sheep, should we take that as a metaphor, literally or both? How did his hearers interpret him?
You of course know that shepherds of that day when taking their sheep from the homestead to find pasture would make enclosures at night in which they corralled the sheep, and that the shepherd lay in the doorway as the LITERAL door.
Didn’t take that text verbatim or at face value, now did I? I studied and used the reference books and texts that you and Bush Tea routinely scoff at!
It is not nonsense to say that SIN keeps people from the Word Pat. If you have ever done any personal witnessing or gone door to door, or on the street talking to folk about Christ, you know these things
Re Before I go, what nonsense that was about people afraid of the Word because of their sin? I thought you have been telling us all along that your Jesus DIED to save us from our sins? So what you talking bout, eh?
The answer to this question is to be found in 1 Timothy 4:10 which reads For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The last part of this verse teaches that the work of Christ on the cross IS SUFFICIENT for all men, but only EFFICIENT for those who believe.
God has made provision for Universal Salvation for all mankind, but this provision is only availing (though available) to those who believe and take the gift of salvation.
God wants (desires) all men without exception by their own free will to be saved (cf. 1Tim. 2:4). However, in the case of some, His will can be and is effectually resisted through obstinate unbelief, because man has a free will and God will not force His will upon man.
So whereas He is actually the Saviour (in some sense) of all men, he is only the Savior of those who believe!
God is able (has provided) salvation for all men without exception upon the condition of faith. But all can not (will not) be saved; only those who exercise faith.
Again though 1 Timothy 4:10 points out that God has provided salvation for all men without exception. It says, “He is the Saviour of all men.” But “all men have not faith” (II Thess. 3:2) and salvation is by grace through faith in Christ ( Ephesians 2:8-9 etc)
Again though 1 Timothy 4:10 points out that God actually makes salvation available— in the full, evangelical sense of the term — to all kinds (classes) of men, only those who accept it are actually saved.
Georgie Porgie // June 3, 2009 at 8:54 AM
I have always be amazed at those who scoff at the notion of the second coming of Christ. One imagines that the devil and his cohorts must revel in the fact that the Laodicean contemporary church, consumed with their ”seed sowing” (translate as money grabbing or get rich) programs have little interest in the second coming as they concentrate on building bigger barns! (e.g the new multi million complex scheduled for St Davids!)
The importance of the doctrine of the second coming is demonstrated by its prominence in Scriptures.
1 out of every 30 verses in the Bible mentions this doctrine. In the New Testament this truth is mentioned 300 times, or once in every 25 verses.
For every 1 mention of the first coming there are 8 mentions of the second coming. 318 mentions of this subject are made in 216 chapters
Whole chapters are devoted to it e.g Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13, Like 21, 2 Peter 3 and some books are practically given over to it; like 1 & 2 Thessalonians and Revelation.
Jesus spoke about it in John 14:1-3, the Apostles taught it, Moses and the prophets and the Psalmist all preached it. The angels who bore such faithful testimony to his first advent, informed us at his departure that he would come again [Acts 1:1].
Such faithful testimony by Jesus, the angels and the apostles force us to conclude and believe that THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS IMPORTANT.
If the number of times mentioned makes a subject important, then surely the second coming of Christ is one of the most important matters in the mind of God.
The Word has provided us with so much information concerning the second advent of Christ that men are left with out excuses on this vital subject, so as to prepare for its arrival.
Since the numerous prophecies concerning the first coming were so accurately fulfilled, it is quite reasonable to anticipate an equally accurate fulfillment of the more numerous mentions of the second coming. Our only conclusion then is that THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS IMPORTANT.!!
The second coming of Christ is a word of comfort, a word of encouragement, a word of blessing and a word of warning; THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST IS IMPORTANT.
Yet “intellectual” Bible illiterates, who think that thier ability to quote a verse of scripture here and there out of context, qualifies them to pontificate on things about which they know naught.
It has always amazed me how folk expect lawyers to have acess to large law libraries with references and texts books would believe that theologians Bible scholars and serious Bible students ought not to have the same interest in references and texts books about the Word of God.
It has always amazed me how folk expect Doctors to keep abreast by reading BMJ or Lancet, or NEJM etc but dont think that Bible scholars should read approprite journals also.
It has always amazed me how folk who read the Bible here and there, when and then, and do so in a willy nilly, slap dash, hodge podge fashion think that they can apply “THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD” to the interpretaion of the Word of God, and especially ESCHATOLOGY.
These Bible illiterates think that they can ask thier silly questions (which they think to be so very important just because they cant find the answers) and that this makes them so high and mighty or smart.
To such I would ask to answer the following questions on Eschatology, using thier brilliant methods of Bible study, rather than the universally accepted “Inductive Method of Bible Study.”
1.Discuss the method of interpretation and its role in understanding the Doctrine of Last Things.
2.Outline the Premillennial, Postmillennial, and Amillennial viewpoints. Indicate which you believe, and why.
3.Discuss at least three of the viewpoints regarding the rapture. Which is your position, and why do you believe this way?
4.What is the role of Israel, the Church, and the Nations with regard to the End Times?
5. Discuss the 70 Weeks of Daniel as found in Daniel 9.
6.Discuss the relationship of the Church to the Tribulation, Israel to the Tribulation, and the Gentiles to the Tribulation.
7.Discuss the prophecies relating to the millennium and how they relate to the past, present, and future dispensations. If you do not believe in dispensations, explain the role of the prophecies as related to your particular viewpoint.
JJ // June 8, 2009 at 12:07 PM
Dear Georgie Porgie and Zoe,
I must apologize for my delay in responding to the both of you. Thank you for your thought-provoking replies. I hope to continue to answer each and every statement of yours and begin now where I last left off…
In return, please read carefully with an open mind.
God bless!
JJ // June 8, 2009 at 12:07 PM
Georgie Porgie, you wrote on 27 May:
QUOTE: “Indeed, some of us can spot the googly from the time it leaves the hand, and again when it hits the pitch!”
If you say so!
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. )
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JJ // June 8, 2009 at 12:08 PM
QUOTE: “Re THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY.
JJ you disappoint me. After a reasonable start you have descended to the depths only seen on this forum by a certain joker to whom I no longer respond.
Please don’t insult our intelligence with your denominational dogma.”
My friend, oftentimes the truth is offensive. Jesus’ holy life was a continuous rebuke to sinners around Him. The cross of Christ in an offence to those who do not believe.
Jesus said, “But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth.” John 8:40
Paul felt the same when he said, “Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?” Gal 4:16
However, truth is truth and can afford to be investigated. Please be patient with me as I explain my position. I assure you, it is not “denominational dogma.”
Concerning those who do NOT receive the mark of the beast is this verse:
“Here is the PATIENCE of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev 14:12
Likewise, removing the debris to uncover hidden, golden truths requires patience! Have patience!
JJ // June 8, 2009 at 12:08 PM
QUOTE: “How can the COERCIVE SUNDAY OBSERVANCE, DEFIANTLY LINKED WITH A DETERMINATION TO WORSHIP GOD IN OUR OWN WAY IN SPITE OF CHRIST’S END TIME MINISTRY ON OUR BEHALF BESIDE THE LAW OF GOD IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE OF THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY be a MARK that is 666 and placed on the forehead of the right hand of folk in the tribulation period.”
Georgie Porgie, first of all, you need to be a lot more careful when you read the text. Where does it say, (except maybe in perverted Bible translations) that the mark of the beast is ON the forehead or ON the right hand? Look at the Greek and look at literal, careful renditions of the Scriptures and you’ll notice that it is not ON the forehead and right hand but IN the forehead and right hand.
Even if you acknowledge this, still you take ‘mark’, ‘forehead’, and ‘hand’ literally and this is your stumbling block. So to help you once again, I refer you to a previous post of mine where I put the following…
“God also marks His people. Look at the “mark” mentioned in Revelation 13:16. Three verses later John saw a group called the 144,000 with the “Father’s name written in their foreheads” Revelation 14:1.”
DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THIS MEANS THERE WILL BE LITERAL LETTERS OF THE FATHER’S NAME ENGRAVED IN PEOPLE’S FOREHEADS?
Again, I wrote… “Was the mark the Lord set upon Cain a physical mark or was it symbolic also? Genesis 4:15 reads, “And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.” Did Cain spend the rest of his life with writing on His forehead and would anyone have acknowledged it?”
Why any different with the Mark of the Beast?
JJ // June 8, 2009 at 12:09 PM
QUOTE: “Please make sense! May I remind you we are not men talking nonsense in a rum shop, or the men that talk in like manner when they congregate on my father’s porch after matins or mass every Sunday!”
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned! Your comment here is very alike the one made about the disciples on Pentecost. Have a read:
“And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, THESE MEN ARE FULL OF WINE. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: FOR THESE ARE NOT DRUNKEN, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT upon all flesh.” Acts 2:12-17
Be careful not to label the utterances of the Spirit as vain babble.
JJ // June 8, 2009 at 12:09 PM
QUOTE: “Re WHAT IS SIN?
Sin is defined thus explicitly in Scriptures such as
1- 1 John 5: 17 All unrighteousness is sin.
2- missing the mark or coming short as in Romans 3: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (See the Greek)
3- James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, THAT IS SIN!
4- Romans 14:23b for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
Alright, you’ve given some very good verses here but did you deliberately leave out Romans 3:20, 7:7 and 1 John 3:4?
Read these references, and then look at the whole picture. It’s not difficult to understand!
You first referred me to 1 John 5:17 – “All unrighteousness is sin.”
OK, if unrighteousness is sin, the opposite of sin is RIGHTEOUSNESS, right? What is righteousness?
“For all Thy commandments are righteousness.” Psalm 119:172.
“Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but My salvation shall be forever, and My righteousness shall not be abolished.
Hearken unto Me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is My law, fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.” Isaiah 51:6,7.
THEY WHO KNOW THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD ARE THOSE IN WHOSE HEART IS HIS LAW!
Look again.
“All unrighteousness is sin.” 1 John 5:17.
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4.
Sin is the transgression of the Law, and it is also unrighteousness – sin and unrighteousness are identical. But if unrighteousness is transgression of the law, righteousness must be obedience
to the Law!
Paul makes it plain that it is the 10 Commandments that reveal sin in Romans 3:20 and 7:7. However, like I said in an earlier post, the Decalogue is “exceedingly broad.” “The Law is spiritual,” (Romans 7:14) and includes a great deal more than the ordinary reader can discern. Once again – “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Cor. 2:14.
Now look at Romans 2:13 – “the doers of the law shall be justified.” To justify means to make righteous. Now, would a doer of a wicked law be justified before God?? Never!
My point is that it is perfect obedience to a PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUS LAW that would constitute one a righteous person. But for one to be judged “a doer of the law” it would have to be necessary that he kept the Law in its FULLEST measure perfectly every moment of his life. If he had come short of this, even on the smallest point, he could not be said to be a doer of the Law, can he? He could not be a doer of the Law if he had done it only in part. It is a sad fact, therefore, that there are in all the human race NO doers of the Law, for both Jews and Gentiles are “all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” Rom. 3:9-12.
The Law speaks to all and in all the world there is not one who can open his mouth to clear himself from the charge of sin which the Law brings against him! Every mouth is stopped, and all the whole world stands guilty before God (verse 19), “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (verse 23)!
Therefore, although “the doers of the law shall be justified,” it is just as evident that “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” Verse 20. In other words, no one has ever been justified as a doer of the Law. The Law is “holy, and just, and good,” and cannot declare that the one who violates it is innocent. A Law that would justify a wicked man would be a wicked Law!!
The very fact that the Law will not declare sinners to be righteous, – that it will not say that men have kept it when they have violated it, – is in itself sufficient evidence that it is GOOD. The Law of God is the perfection of righteousness, and therefore it is forced to declare the sad fact that not one of Adam’s race has fulfilled its requirements! We are all “transgressors of the law.”
So here’s the case:
1. The Law of God is perfect righteousness; and perfect conformity to it is demanded of everyone who shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
2. But the Law has not a particle of righteousness to bestow upon anyone, for all are sinners, and all are unable to comply with its requirements. No matter how diligently nor how zealously a person works, nothing that he can do will meet the full measure of the Law’s demands. It is too high for him to attain to – he cannot obtain righteousness by the law – “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified [made righteous] in His sight.”
On top of that, “the law worketh wrath, “because “all have sinned,” and “the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.”
So, how on earth shall we become doers of the law and thus escape wrath, or the curse?
The answer is, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.” By faith, not by works, we become doers of the Law! “With the heart man believeth unto righteousness.” Romans 10:10.
“The just shall live by faith.”
I’m sure we all agree that righteousness does not therefore come by works, but by faith.
“If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” Romans 11:6.
“To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:4, 5
There is no exceptions to this. All those who are ‘just’ are made just and kept just by faith alone! Why? Simply because the Law is so holy. It is greater than can be done by man! Only divine power can accomplish it! So by faith we receive the Lord Jesus, and He lives the perfect Law in us!
The Jews followed after the Law of righteousness, but they did’nt attain to it. Why not? “Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.” They followed after the Law in the WRONG WAY. It is not by works, but by faith, that the works which the law requires can be attained. That is to say that bad works can not produce good works; good can not come of evil. But when we keep the law by faith, we do good works because “FAITH WORKS by LOVE.” In other words, “whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” Rom. 14:23.
Now that you’ve been enlightened with regard to the Law of God, read what the Lord says to those who have been given light, and yet fail to live in accordance with it: “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17 (which you also quoted but didn’t exegete)
Quote: “Please dont come with junk about NOT keeping the Sabbath!, or NOT KEEPING THE LAW OF MOSES OR THOSE PARTS OF THE LAW YOUR DENOMINATIONAL DOGMA PRESCRIBES.”
All throughout your writings, you claim to exercise proper exegesis. Please go through what I’ve just posted and point out my ‘junk’ using the Scriptures. PROVE THAT THE LAW OF GOD IS NO LONGER VALID. PROVE THAT THE SABBATH IS NO LONGER VALID. But don’t throw both out the water just because you don’t want to keep Sabbath!
Foolbert // June 8, 2009 at 12:15 PM
I wished that the beast would have shown his face a few days ago including
the Sabbath and yesterday too.
Knight Templar // June 8, 2009 at 12:39 PM
I too am curious…how are you all coping with the recession…how many of you have lost jobs, had hours cut, etc. etc…how is this affecting you emotionally and psychologically…does anybody have any coping techniques, optimism, thoughts on how bad it will get before it will get better…are you stressing out, more depressed etc…tips on surviving etc. etc…
Zoe // June 8, 2009 at 11:20 PM
JJ, Thanks for getting back to GP and me, I’m sure that GP will answer you accordingly in due course.
First, let me make it abundantly clear, you have NOT ‘…enlightened (me) with regard to the Law of God…’ as any serious student of God’s Word, and which I humbly consider myself to be, am very familar with all of the texts you quoted re the Law.
Quote: “PROVE THAT THE LAW OF GOD IS NO LONGER VALID. PROVE THAT THE SABBATH IS NO LONGER VALID.”
JJ, did you honestly and carefully, with an open mind, truly read my post?
Did I not say, that the Law, specifically, the Ten Commandments, IS NOT invalidated, NOT abolished, BUT, rather, because Jesus kept them ALL perfectly, the Only man ever to do so, and hence, FULFILLED , COMPLETELY, and therefore, through the Imperative of LOVE, by, in, and through the indwelling Holy Spirit in the hearts and lives of ‘Justified’ believers, FUFILL ALL the Law, the Ten Commandments, by (1) “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt LOVE The Lord Thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself.”
(Matt. 22:37-39).
And how JJ, does JESUS conclude after referring to Deut 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18?
“One these TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG (How much of the LAW?) ALL the LAW AND THE PROPHETS” (Matt. 22:40). emphasis added.
Do YOU believe what Almighty God’s Word says? Are you calling Jesus a liar?
This is emphatically and explicitly conformed by none other than the Apostle Paul.
Having identified 5 of the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and alluding to the OTHER 5 COMMANDMENTS, Paul then states in plain language.
“LOVE worketh no ill to his neighbour: Therefore, LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.” (Rom. 13: 10).
He repeats it AGAIN in Galatians.
“For ALL THE LAW is FULFILLED in ONE word: Thou shall LOVE thy neighbour as thyself.” (Gal, 5;14).
The absolute Righteousness of God’s Holy Law, the Ten Commandments, were completely and totally FULFILLED by Christ as He kept them ALL perfectly.
He then satisfied the Holy Righteousness of the Law, by dying on Calvary, having PAID IN FULL, the JUST requirement of THE LAW, by bearing ALL of our SIN, being our substitute, taking our PENALTY on Himself, and thus satisfying the Father’s Holy, Righteous Justice, which NONE of us could do.
This is precisely why Paul states:
“For I through the LAW died to the LAW that I might live to God” ( Gal. 2:19).
“I do not set aside the grace of God; for if RIGHTEOUSNESS comes through the LAW, then Christ died in vain.”
Our right standing before God, in Christ Jesus, has absolutly nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath day, NOTHING at all.
Our initial Justification, was by Grace through Faith; our Sanctification is by Grace through Faith; and our ultimate Glorification, is by Grace through Faith, NOT observing or keeping the Sabbath day. This IS New Testament theology!
This is why Paul again, stresses the point in Galatians:
“For if the INHERITANCE is of the Law, it IS no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise” (Gal. 3:18).
I will deal more thoroughly tomorrow with this verse, plus Revelation 14:12 et al, and the New Testament meaning of the word ‘Commandments’ that is terribly misunderstood by Sabbatarians!
Zoe // June 9, 2009 at 9:11 AM
JJ, You quoted Revelation 14:12, “Here is the patience of the saints: here (are) they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus”
Sabbatarians like to quote such verses, believing that the word “commandments” as used in the New Testament, is always used with reference to the Ten Commandments, which is not correct. It may refer to one or more of the Ten Commandments.
However, this term does not always refer to the Decalogue, and when it does, only ONCE is it used in connection with the Sabbath commandment. That one time is:
“And they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment” (Luke 23: 56).
Other uses of the term commandment or commandments of God include the following:
“Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. Let each man remain in the condition in which he was called” ( I Cor. 7: 19,20).
It is imperative to remember, that we are seeking to define “commandments” as used by John, the author of Revelation. While Luke used the Greek word commandment ( entole) to refer to the Sabbath commandment; John always used the word “Law” (nomos) when referring to old covenant law.
When John uses the word “commandment (entole) it never refers to the old covenant law, and usually refers to the new covenant law of love. I will give all the passages in John’s writings which contain the words “Law” and “commandment” and it will become immediately evident that when used in John, “commandment” (entole) does Not refer to the Ten Commandments, or other portions of the old covenant.
Here are a few of the places where the Greek word (entole) used for “commandments” in Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 14:12, is used by John in his other writings.
“If you love me, you will keep My commandments (Jn. 14:15). He who has My commandments, and keeps them, he it is who loves Me…(Jn. 14:21). If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love: just as I have kept My Father’s commandments, and abide in His love…This is My commandment, that you LOVE one another, just as I have loved you…This I command you, that you LOVE one another” (Jn. 15: 10, 12, 17).
“and this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another, just as He commanded us> And the one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And we know that by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He has given us” (Jn. 3: 23,24).
“And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who LOVES God should LOVE his bother also” ( I Jn. 4:21).
“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome” ( I Jn. 5: 2,3).
Notice carefully, that “…This is My commandment, (to do what?) that you LOVE one another, just as I have loved you…This I ‘command’ you, that you LOVE one another”
Notice again, “And this is His ‘commandment’ that we believe in the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another, just as He ‘commandmended us…”
These are New Testament ‘commandments’ based on LOVE for God, and LOVE for one another, exactly as Jesus amplified in Matthew 22: 34-40; and as Paul did in Romans 13: 8-10; and Galatians 5:14.
Therefore, we conclude that the term, “commandment of God” as used by John in Revelation 12:17 and 14:10 does NOT refer to the Ten Commandments. If he were referrring to the Ten Commandments, He would have used the word “Law” (nomos) and not (entole).
I have to go out, will be back later to expand more on this, and other related passages.
Georgie Porgie // June 9, 2009 at 1:10 PM
Zoe
Your comments demonstrate the help in understanding that can be obtained by just looking at the Strong’s numbers in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and doing a simple word study.Yet the unlearned will tell you that you should not use reference books.
Since they have not ytaken the time or effort to better understand how to interpret the Word of God, you are expected to descend to thier level of ignorance which they arrogantly display.
Our children are to excel at common entrance exams, excel ion secondary school and excel in other aspects of life, but if when studying the Bible, you are to do at the level of an imbecile or moron!
We rant and rave on this blog about mediocrity in all aspects of our public life, but those who display what is concerned to be the basics in rightly dividing the Word of truth, you are ridiculed for your methods.
How inconsistent!
Technician // June 9, 2009 at 4:37 PM
But GP…..in all fairness…the Common Entrance and Secondary education all consists of a basic syllabus, there are so many different religions out there, all claiming to be the true one.
I really dont see how you could compare them both. I dont see any instances of many types of Mathematics or many types of English…..however I see all different types of denominations all claiming to be the true one.
Also…from reading the posts on this thread…..the arrogance mostly comes from the Christians, especially Zoe!!
Georgie Porgie // June 9, 2009 at 7:35 PM
Technician
You are of course very correct when you opine that the Common Entrance and Secondary education all have a particular syllabus. I think that the Bible “consists of a basic syllabus” also.
Unlike many, I am not interested in any of the “so many different religions out there, all claiming to be the true one.” I am interested in those who are seeking sincerely to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH, and to live under the basis that THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY FOR FAITH & PRACTICE.
You are again correct when you point out that “I see all different types of denominations all claiming to be the true one.” But again I say, the emphasis should be on RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH, and to live under the basis that THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY FOR FAITH & PRACTICE.
Nowhere does the Bible talk about denominations, and I can only recall one use of the word religion in James and the word religion is thier preceeded by the word TRUE!
If all the different types of denominations were ALL RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH, they would ALL be saying the same thing, because all the different types of denominations claim to use the Bible as their particular syllabus. You see all denominations err because they get caught up in dogma and depart from doctrine.
Jesus told the people of his day in Mark 7 Verse 8: “You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”
Now, the traditions of which he spoke had begun in right ways. That is, they were simply an attempt to understand the Law. The book of Leviticus did require that certain ablutions, certain washings, be performed as a way of teaching the people how to handle sin.
That was the intent of the Law. But as these requirements were applied to various situations, certain suggestions were made as to the proper way to do it. And there was nothing wrong with that, particularly. But then the priests began to interpret the suggestions which had been made, and added to them.
Then interpretations of the interpretations were added, until gradually there was built up a tremendous mass of tradition which demanded inflexible obedience and scrupulous observance of even the minor details, so that the purpose of the Law was forgotten.
This is what has happened in the Christian church. In the book of Acts you find an amazing liberty of the Spirit among the people of God. The Lord never worked twice in the same way in the book of Acts. That is beautiful to see. But you cannot deduce a ceremony of a ritual for the church from the book of Acts, because God is moving in freshness and variety and spontaneity wherever you turn.
But especially after 313 AD some of these ways were settled upon as the right way to do a thing, and others were added, and interpretations were added to them, until through the years, as you well know, there have grown up varying categories of worship forms — “orders of service” we call them — each claiming to be the right one.
Many of us have been victims of these. We do not feel we have worshipped unless we have sung the Gloria Patri, or read the Apostles’ Creed, or something similar. But we have departed from continuing stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine as the early church did as recoded in Acts 2:42. This is what our Lord is dealing with. Mark shows us first of all the force of such tradition in these people’s lives.
In Mark 7:5-7, we read the words of Jesus with regard to tradition, and we learn something of the course of tradition, i.e., how it develops. With our Lord’s keen perceptiveness, he plunges right to the heart of the issue. When the Pharisees ask him, “Why do your disciples not observe the traditions?” he points out to them, first of all, the effect that the observance of tradition has upon our lives. It produces hypocrites. “You hypocrites,” he says.
I am sometimes amazed as I read through the gospels at the bluntness of the language of Jesus! In fact, Matthew’s account tells us that the disciples said to him afterward, “Do you realize that you offended those Pharisees?” And he did offend them. So don’t get too uptight when Zoe sounds of on this blog- he has the example of Jesus behind him! He has precedent!
Jesus quoted Isaiah to show his hearers that there are two kinds of hypocrisy.
First, there is that which consists of right words but wrong attitudes. Everything outward is right, but inwardly the mind and heart are wrong. That, Jesus says, is hypocrisy — to look as if you are doing something religious and worshipful and God-related, but inside to have an entirely different attitude.
That is what tradition does to us. It externalizes religion, makes it outward instead of inward. As long as we are fulfilling the prescribed outward form, we think we are acceptable before God. That is the terrible danger of tradition.
This particular form which Isaiah mentions here — right words and wrong attitudes — is wide-spread among Christians. We all suffer from it, and we ought to recognize it and admit it. It is a struggle we all have, without exception. And it has resulted in what is probably the most deadly danger to the evangelistic message of the church — the self-righteousness of Christians — thinking that because we do things in the “right” way, and say the “right” words, and believe the “right” doctrines, we are thus pleasing to God.
Jesus pointed out also, that Isaiah said that there is a second form of hypocrisy. It is, “In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.” This is to have religious actions which are clothing worldly philosophies. This is wide-spread in the church, too. It is the idea that if we take the principles and the precepts by which the world operates — dog-eat-dog, every man for himself, fulfill yourself first, etc., and clothe them with the words of Scripture, then we are worshipping God. But Jesus says that is hypocrisy, and is a failure to worship.
This is the philosophy that is prevalent on this blog when it comes to scriptural issues. The hypocrisy of religion and worldly thinking and reasoning seeks to over throw the correct interpretation of the Word of God, which comes by study, because of the way the Scriptures are presented.
Worldly thinking and reasoning argues that if God wanted us to understand the Bible he would have written it this way or that way. But 2 Timothy 2:15 says STUDY ………and RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH!
To facilitate this goal it is wise to refuse to reinvent the wheel and use the tools and aids prepared by men of God, some laboring over a period of 50 years to give us the information to be found in Nave’s Topical Textbook. Thompson Chain Reference Bible, Ryrie, Dakes Schofield Study Bibles etc Thiessen’s or Evan’s or Chaffer’s Systematic Theologies etc.
Even Paul had his books and parchments (2 timothy 4:13) a fine point that someon this blog failed to observe.
So whereas we all have the same syllabus according to all the denominations you mentioned, they are some that USE THE DEVELOPED TOOLS to facillate understanding the contents of the syllabus. Some have not, and when they speak, it is VERY evident!
I am sure you seek to acquire the best tools to do your work. Don’t you? So do serious Bible students. It is really idiotic to laugh to scorn folk who use the tools of their trade or vocation—whatever their trade or vocation may be.
Georgie Porgie // June 9, 2009 at 9:23 PM
JJ wrote
Georgie Porgie, first of all, you need to be a lot more careful when you read the text. Where does it say, (except maybe in perverted Bible translations) that the mark of the beast is ON the forehead or ON the right hand? Look at the Greek and look at literal, careful renditions of the Scriptures and you’ll notice that it is not ON the forehead and right hand but IN the forehead and right hand.
To this I reply WELL DOES NOT THE MICROCHIPS MAKE SENSE SEEING THAT THEY ARE USUALY PUT IN THE SKIN? Eh?
I am not saying that microchips will be used- I never did. But microchips might very well be used!
Zoe // June 9, 2009 at 10:03 PM
JJ, let us look at the way John uses Law (nomos) as distinct from the word commandment (entole).
The following is a complete list of the usages of the word “Law” in the writings of John:
“For the law (nomos) was given through Moses: grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ” (Jn. 1:17). “Philip found Nathanael and said to him, ‘We have found Him of whom Moses in the law (nomos) and also the Prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph” ( Jn. 1:45). ” Did not Moses give you the law (nomos), and yet none of you carries out the Law (nomos)? Why do you seek to kill me?” (Jn. 7;19). “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath that the Law (nomos) of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath? (Jn. 7:23). “But this multitude which does not know the Law (nomos) is accursed ” (Jn. 7:49). “Our Law (nomos) does not judge a man, unless it first hears from him and knows what he is doing, does it?” (Jn. 7:51). ” Now in the Law (nomos) Moses commanded us to stone a woman; what then do You say?” (Jn. 8:5). “Even in your Law (nomos) it has been written, that the testimony of two men is true” (Jn. 8:17). “Jesus answered them, ‘Has it not been written in your Law (nomos), I SAID YOU ARE GODS?” (Jn. 10:34). “The multitude therefore answered Him, ‘We have heard out of the Law (nomos) that Christ is to remain forever…” ((Jn. 12:34). “But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law (nomos). ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.” (jn. 15: 25). “Pilate therefore said to them, ‘Take Him yourselves, and judge Him according to your law (nomos)…” (Jn. 18:31). “The Jews answered him, ‘We have a law (nomos), and by that law (nomos) He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God.” (jn. 19:7).
The word Law (nomos) is NOT used in Revelation>
The following is a complete listing of the word “commandment” in the writings of John.
“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again, This ‘commandment’ [entole] I received from My Father” (Jn. 10:18). “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me ‘commandment [entole], what to say, and what to speak. And I know that His ‘commandment’ [entole] is eternal life; therefore the things I speak just as the Father has told Me” (Jn. 12: 49-50).
“A new ‘commandment’ [entole] I give to you, that you LOVE one another, even as I loved you, that you also LOVE one another” (Jn. 13:34). “If you LOVE Me, you will keep My ‘commandments’ [entole]” (Jn. 14:15). “He who has My ‘commandments’ [entole] and keeps them, he it is who LOVES Me; and he who LOVES Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him” (Jn. 14:21). “But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me ‘commandment’ [entole], even so I do…” (Jn. 14:31). “If you keep My ‘commandments’ [entole], you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My father’s ‘commandments’ [entole], and abide in His love” (Jn. 15:10). “This is My ‘commandment’ [entole] that you LOVE one another, just as I have loved you” (Jn. 15:12). “And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His ‘commandments’ [entole]. “The one who says, ‘I have come to know Him,’ and does not keep His ‘commandments’ [entole], is a liar, and the truth is not in him” ( I Jn. 2: 3-4). “Beloved, I am not writing a new ‘commandment; [entole] to you, but an old ‘commandment’ [entole] which you have had from the beginning; the old ‘commandment’ [entole] is the word which you have heard. On the other hand, I am writing a new ‘commandment’ [entole] to you, which is the true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining” (I Jn. 2: 7-8). “And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His ‘commandments’ [entole] and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His ‘commandment’ [entole], that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another, just as He ‘commanded’ [entole] us. And the one that keeps His ‘commandments’ [entole] abides in Him, and He in him. And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us” (I Jn. 3: 22-24). “And this ‘commandment’ [entole] we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also” (I Jn. 4:21). “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His ‘commandments’ [entole]. For this is the love of God, that we keep His ‘commandments’ [entole]; and His ‘commandments’ [entole] are not burdensome” ( I Jn. 5: 2-3). ” I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received ‘commandment [entole] to do from the Father. And now I ask you, lady, not as writing to you a new ‘commandment’ [entole], but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another ” ( 2 Jn. 1: 4-5). “And this is LOVE, that we walk according to His ‘commandments [entole]. This is the ‘commandment’ [entole], just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it” (2 Jn. 1:6).
The word “commandment” [entole] is used only two times in Revelation 12: 17, and 14:12.
Why do you think, that the Holy Spirit inspired John, to make such a clear distinction in using two different words as He pened Scripture, Law (nomos), and ‘commandment(s)’ (entole)?
Because, the contrast is made between the Old Covenant, Mosaic Law, specifically the Ten Commandments, which are now kept and ‘fulfilled’ by and through LOVE, as expressed in the Justified believers heart, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, DAILY toward God our Father, and DAILY to one another.
When we LOVE as Christ has commanded us to LOVE, yeilding our lives every single day of the week, to His Lordship, manifesting the fruit of the Holy Spirit, the LAW of LOVE, fulfills the Righteousness of the Law in true liberty and blessed freedom in Christ Jesus, to the Glory of God the Father.
We have the imputed Righteousness of Jesus, (Actus Forensis) forensic act, i.e., the actualization of a legal state or condition, such as occurs in the ‘Justification’ of the sinner by God on accoount of faith. The sinner is not made just, but is, by the will of God, declared just, legally or forensically, and is thenceforth in a condition of being justified or counted reghteous.
Actus Justificatorius: Justificatory act or operation; viz., the formal appropriation of the divine ‘actus forensis’ of justification in the believer, the realization or recognition that God no longer counts one as sinful, but as righteous in Christ Jesus.
This then goes to the very heart of why, “The Christian stand under ‘the perfect law of liberty’ which enables him to ‘fulfill’ the righteousness of the ‘Law’ by the imperative of Love.”
This has NOTHING to do with observing a day, (Sabbath)!
Technician // June 9, 2009 at 11:19 PM
I understand where you are coming from GP…BUT…haven’t these others claimed or still claim to be the true word.
I work along with other technicians, one is Pentecost, one is Jehovah’s Witness and the other is a Baptist preacher.
I dont think I need to tell you the amount of trouble I cause with the question I ask on mornings…LOL.
My point is that each of them believe that they are following the true word and trust me ….they believe in it.
So, to me, a non believer in this, can you see the trouble I would have trying to figure out who is true?!?
I think I will ask again in the morning :)
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 12:11 AM
Technician ma boy
I can claim what ever I wish, and your friends can claim what they wish, but when ANY OF US departs from the WORD it is easy to know who is who. We all ready know that the Jehovah’s Witness are really ARIANS. So that is an easy cult to dismiss, even though one admires their zeal in door to door personal work.
I can just imagine the amount of trouble you cause with your questions.
I imagine that each of your friends believe that they are following the true word and that they all sincerely believe their positions. Being sincerely WRONG is still WRONG . You can tell them that LOL. I expect that both the Pentecostal; chap and the Baptist preacher should be closest to the truth.
You don’t have to determine who is true. All you need to do is RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH FOR YOURSELF!
BTW I think that you are getting some good teaching on this forum though. I know you don’t like Zoe too much; but the post above is in the top drawer.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 12:16 AM
Technician
If you read Zoe’s last post you will see how to deal with those who think that you MUST worship on the Sabbath, and make one point a false doctrine, and then build a denomination thereon.
Here is a good clear example of what Jesus told the people of his day in Mark 7 Verse 8: “You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”
ROK // June 10, 2009 at 2:38 AM
Don’t dismiss any cult. What is now christianity was a cult. We know that in any rumour there is some truth. The Romans claimed that the disciples took the body of christ away and ate it.
Well it is also very conspicuous that one of the rituals of christianity is to eat the body of Christ and drink his blood. This is so distasteful that can only be described as devilish by any standards.
The act is now symbolised.
Annonymous // June 10, 2009 at 10:21 AM
It is noteworthy that a discusion which has been conducted at a fairly high level has descended to the level of faecal effluent!
All church goers of all denominations KNOW that the disciples did NOT take the body of Christ away to eat it.
All church goers of all denominations KNOW that no one eats the body of Christ nor do they drink his blood.
Serious folk who understand the Bible know that sharing the cup and bread at Communion services is ONE OF THE TWO ORDINANCES OF THE CHURCH AND NOT RITUALS!
Any one with Basic understanding knows that Jesus did not expect his disciples in the early Church to literally eat his body or drink his blood.
Everyone knows that in no denomination has any participant in Communion Services at any time through the centuries or today eat the body of Christ nor do they drink his blood.
Only the devil himself, or one of his demons would think that remembering Christ (the purpose of breaking the bread and sharing the cup) is “distasteful” or describes such metings “as devilish by any standards.”
Can you percieve the Spirit of Antichrist here?
Zoe // June 10, 2009 at 11:40 AM
JJ, Let us now look carefully at Paul’s letter to the Galatians, where his polemic against the Judaizers in seeking to bring the young Galatian Christians back under the Law, by insisting that circumcision was necessary for salvation.
Paul was righteously angry, “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that you should obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so FOOLISH? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal. 3: 1-3,5).
Yes, Paul is essentially here dealing with ‘Justification’ how one is Saved, and his central focus is, that IT IS NOT by any adherence to any LAW ritual from the Old Covenant; but, circumcision is what the Judaizers were attempting to impose on the Galatian saints. This is why Paul vehemently stressed:
“I DO NOT frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the ‘law’ then Christ is dead in vain.” ( Gal. 2:21)
Sabbatarians will hastly agree that Paul is right, re Justification, that one cannot be Justified by the Law; but then going on to deal with their ’sabbath’ imposition as been valid.
However, Paul goes on ever further in his argument from chapter 3, verse 10.
“For as many as are of the works of the ‘law’ are under the CURSE; for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth NOT in ALL things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” (v.10).
‘Under a curse’ (hupo kataran) Picture of the curse hanging over them like a Damocles’ sword. Paul quotes Deut 27: 26, the close of the curses on Mt. Ebal. The idea is made clearer by the participle (gegrammenois) and ‘biblioi’ (book), the curse becomes effective only when the law is violated. The emphasis is on “continueth” (emmenei) and ‘all’ (pasin).
“And the law is NOT of faith: but, the man that does them shall live in them.” (v.12)
“The law is not of faith” (ho nomos ouk astin ek pisteos), Law demands complete obedience, and rest not on mercy, faith, grace.
Paul goes on to build his argument:
“Christ hath redeemed us from the CURSE of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” (v. 13).
The Law has nothing to do with the notion of receiving ‘right standing’ as a gracious gift from God, as a result of trust in Him.
From here on Paul goes even deeper and further back than the giving of the ‘Law’ to prove his point.
“That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the ‘promise’ of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet it it be confirmed, NO man disannulleth, OR addeth to it.”
(vv. 14,15).
It is here that Paul now swings around to meet the ‘Law’ keeping Judaizers head on, by taking them back to Abraham, long before the Law of Moses was instituted. Why talk about Abraham, they will say, when the real question is the Law?
Well, Abraham stood at the very beginning of God revelatory process. It was only centuries later, God gave the law of Moses, to really show and reveal to man, his utter depravity before a Holy, Righteous God.
Paul then proceeds:
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (v.16).
But surely, some might argue, even if this were the case, the later Law would have annulled any such earlier ‘arrangements’ with Abraham. Here is Paul, the ecclessiastical lawyer, at his best. He swoops down like a hawk at his possible or real opponent.
Listen to God’s Word, as Paul writes through Divine inspiration and anointing.
“And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, (The Abrahamic Covenant), the Law, which was four hundred and thirty years AFTER, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.” (v. 17).
“Fellow Christians’ here is an ordinary human illustration. even it is is only a last will and testament that has been ratified, NO-ONE can set it aside, or add a codicil. The promises were made to Abraham “and his posterity.” This refers to Christ. But, the real point is this: Once a will and testament has been already ratified by God, NO LAW coming four hundred and thirty years later can anul it and make void the promise which it contained. This is because, if the ‘inheritance’ of salvation comes through the Law, then it has ceased to be in fulfillment of a promise. But, God gave it, ONCE and for ALL, as a gracious gift to Abraham, by promise. The suppressed apodosis is: ‘Therefore the law could not possibly change the conditions of salvation, from being the underserving reception of a promise to being the merited reception of desert or ‘wages”.
When Paul has illustrated his point at the human level, then he will apply it to the spiritual problem using the argument.
The next verse, 18, is potent with meaning, for it takes us way up, after our initial ‘Justification’ right up into our ‘Glorification’ in Heaven.
“For if the ‘inheritance’ be of the Law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise,” (v.18)
The word ‘kleronomia’ ‘Inheritance’ translated in the paraphrase as ‘inheritance of salvation’ means the actual ‘enjoyment’ of the benifits already promised under the will. Paul will return to this concept in 4:1, where the Christian is ‘kleronomos, ‘heir’. In Scripture, the ‘kleronomia’ or ‘inheritance’ is inseparable from the gift of the Spirit, the ‘arrabon’ ‘the guarantee’ or ‘pledge’, of our inheritance (Eph. 1:14)
Therefore, Paul forcefully argues, that the ‘inheritance’ which is the Gift of Eternal Life, which starts with ‘Justification’ continues on with ‘Sanctification’ and is finally consummated in Heaven, when we are ‘Glorified’ cannot in ANY WAY be attained, sustained, or retained by anything to do with the Law, that is legalistic observance of any particular day, (sabbath-keeping) for the ‘Promise’ which guarantees the Inheritance IS Solely by Grace through Faith, from beginning (Justification) to full consummation in Heaven, Glorification.
Law ( Circumcision, Sabbath keeping, etc) and Grace (Christ Jesus) simply do not mix.
Because the Law is a unit, obedience to it CANNOT be selective (3:10) James 2:10).
“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to DO THE WHOLE LAW. Christ is become of NO EFFECT unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE. (Gal, 5: 3,4).
“For ALL THE LAW (Circumcision, Sabbath, etc) is FULFILLED in one word, even this; Thou shall LOVE thy neighbour as thyself.” (v.14).
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 12:34 PM
Mauscripts part 1
Earlier in this thread there was a short debate about manuscripts. In seeking my essays on Law & Grace to respond to Zoe’s amazing exegesis above, I found instead my essay on Factors to be considered when determining the age of a manuscript, which I wrote in early 2001 as an assignment in my MDiv program in Apologetics. I hope that some will find it enlightening
The first issue to look at is what is meant by “manuscript.” Manuscripts are written, as opposed to printed, copies of the original text or of a version either of the whole Bible or of a part thereof.
A Bible manuscript is simply a handwritten copy of a portion of the Bible dating to before the invention of the printing press (mid 1400s). These could be copies of the entire New or Old Testament (NT), portions of it (such as just the Gospels or just the epistles of Paul, or Isaiah) or simply fragments of a book of the NT, or the OT. They are of several types.
On page 48, of Josh McDowell’s Evidence That Demands A Verdict, we read that “factors to be considered when determining the age of a manuscript include materials, letter size and form, punctuation, text divisions, ornamentation, color of ink, texture and color of the parchment.” We will use this classification as far as possible in this discussion as we pursue this topic.
Age is sometimes indicated by a note in the manuscript itself; but the date, when not suspected of falsification, may simply be transcribed from the exemplar. However, as dated manuscripts are usually not very old, recourse must be had to various palæographic indications which generally determine with sufficient accuracy the age of Greek and Latin manuscripts. Hebrew palæography, though more uncertain, presents fewer difficulties, inasmuch as Hebrew manuscripts are not so old. Besides, the exact age of a copy is, after all, only of minor importance, as it is quite possible that an ancient manuscript may be very corrupt while a later one, copied from a better exemplar, may come nearer to the primitive text.
However, other things being equal, the presumption is naturally in favour of the more ancient document, since it is connected with the original by fewer intervening links and consequently has been exposed to fewer possibilities of error.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 12:36 PM
Mauscripts part 2
MATERIALS
Writing materials for the preparation of manuscripts included papyrus, parchment, vellum, ostraca, stones, clay tablets and wax tablets.
PAPYRI:
The earliest manuscripts are know as papyri. Certainly in the Roman Empire of the first three centuries of our era, papyrus was the ordinary writing material.
They are so called because they were written on papyrus. This material was produced from strips of pith taken from the stem of the Egyptian water-plant the papyrus plant. Strips of the plant were laid beside and on top of another, moistened and pressed together and cut into the desired size. Generally, these sheets were then arranged into scrolls. But the early Christians, instead, folded them down the center and bound them together into what is known as a “codex.”
Since we know that papyrus enjoyed popular use until about the third century AD, it is clear that documents on papyrus tend to be dated from 300AD backwards. However, since papyri were of several qualities, and varying thicknesses and surfaces, and because it was a perishable material, one can appreciate that the various possible stages of decomposition of manuscripts on papyri would pose severe problems in attempts to date such documents with great accuracy.
Those papyri which were preserved in dry areas such as the sands of Egypt or in the caves like those at Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, are easier to date. Nevertheless, the oldest papyrus fragment known dates back to 2400 BC
Papyrus was very fragile, became brittle in air, crumbled with use, could not resist the disintegrating force of moisture and was quite impracticable for book-form. All papyrus manuscripts of every sort are lost to us save such as were buried in exceedingly dry soil, like that of Upper and Middle Egypt.
Here the ignorant at one time wantonly destroyed vast quantities of papyrus manuscripts. Egyptian excavators now prevent such destruction and keep on adding to our very considerable collections of papyri.
It is more than likely that the New Testament sacred writers or their scribes used ink and rolls of fragile papyrus for their autographa (II Cor.,3; II John, 12).
These original manuscripts probably perished towards the end of the first or the opening of the second century. We find no trace of them in either the Apostolic or the apologetic Fathers, — unless we except Tertullian’s words, “the authentic letters of the Apostles themselves”, which are now generally set aside as rhetorical.
A significant proof of the early loss of the autograph copies of the New Testament is the fact that Irenæus never appeals to the original writings but only to all the painstaking and ancient copies, to the witness of those that saw John face to face and to the internal evidence of the written word .
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 12:41 PM
Manuscripts part 3
PARCHMENT
In the fourth century, parchment began to be used for preparing manuscripts. This a more durable writing material prepared from the dried shaved and scraped hides of skins of sheep, goats, antelopes and other animals. The hair and flesh were removed and the hide trimmed to size, polished and smoothed with chalk and pumice stone.
Parchment was used until paper became popular in the twelfth century. Documents on parchment tend therefore generally date from the fourth to the twelfth century.
Manusripts were also made on vellum or calf skin, and Harold Greenlee says the oldest leather scrolls date from around 1500 BC.
Egypt clung to her papyrus rolls until the eighth century AD and even later. Vellum had been used before the time of Christ (cf. Pliny, “Historia Naturalis”, xiii, 11), and during the time of the Apostles (II Tim., iv, 13). In the third century, it began, outside of Egypt, to supersede papyrus; in the early part of the fourth century vellum and the codex, or book-form, gained complete victory over papyrus and the roll-form.
When Constantine founded his capital of the Byzantine Empire, he ordered Eusebius to have fifty manuscripts of the Bible made on vellum (somatia en diphtherais) for use in the churches of Byzantium (Vita Constant., IV, 36). To the fourth century belong the earliest extant Biblical manuscripts of anything but fragmentary size.
Some vellum manuscripts of the greatest importance are palimpsests (from Lat. palimpsestum, Gr. palimpsestos, “scraped again”), — that is, they were long ago scraped a second time with pumice-stone and written upon anew.
The discovery of palimpsests led to the reckless, bigoted charge of wholesale destruction of Biblical manuscripts by the monks of old. That there was some such destruction is clear enough from the decree of a Greek synod of A.D. 691, which forbade the use of palimpsest manuscripts either of the Bible or of the Fathers, unless they were utterly unserviceable (see Wattenbach, “Das Schriftwessen im Mittelalter”, 1896, p. 299).
That such destruction was not wholesale, but had to do with only worn or damaged manuscripts, is in like manner clear enough from the significant fact that as yet no complete work of any kind has been found on a palimpsest.
The deciphering of a palimpsest may at times be accomplished merely by soaking it in clear water; generally speaking, some chemical reagent is required, in order to bring back the original writing. Such chemical reagents are an infusion of nutgalls, Gioberti’s tincture and hydrosulphuret of ammonia; all do harm to the manuscript.
Wattenbach, a leading authority on the subject, says: “More precious manuscripts, in proportion to the existing supply, have been destroyed by the learned experimenters of our time than by the much abused monks of old.”
The pen which was used on vellum, parchment and papyrus is said to have been in use as early as the first millennium in Mesopotamia, in the form of the reed cut to a flat chisel shape to enable thick and thin strokes to be made with the broad or narrow sides. If the stroke thickness made with the quill pen introduced by the Greeks in the third century BC differed, then examining documents written with ink can be dated by examining this parameter.
Rolls or scrolls were made by gluing sheets of papyrus together and winding these on long strips around a stick. Since classic authors wrote on papyrus scrolls until about the third century AD, we can often assume that any scroll we are asked to date will have been written prior to this period.
In order to make reading easier and less cumbersome , papyrus sheets were assembled in leaf form and written on both sides similar to a book. Since Christianity is said to be the prime reason for the development of the codex book, we can assume that codices can be dated after about the end of the first century.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 12:45 PM
Manuscripts part 4
LETTER SIZE AND FORM
Minuscule writing which was created in the ninth century was a script of smaller letters in a running hand. Since Hebrew was written without vowels until 900 AD and the coming of the Massoretes this is of great use in dating a manuscript.
Writing was either uncial or minuscule. Greek manuscripts are divided into two classes according to their style of writing — uncials and minuscules.
UNCIALS:
The uncials are the first kind of manuscript written on parchments. They are so called because the entire text was written in capital Greek letters, which were deliberately and carefully executed About 290 uncials have been recognized. They date from the fourth to the fifteenth centuries.
Uncials were written with large and disconnected letters. These letters were not capitals but had a distinctive form: epsilon, sigma, and omega were not written EPSILON, SIGMA, OMEGA, as are those capitals in inscriptions; rho, phi, psi, and at times upsilon were prolonged above or below the line.
Words were not separated; neither accents nor punctuation marks were used; paragraphs were marked off only by a very small lacuna; the letters were uniform and artistic; ligatures were used only for the most ordinary words — IC (Iesous), KC (Kyrios), XC (Christos), ICL (Israel), PNA (pneuma), DLD (David), ANOC (anthropos), PER (pater), MER (mater), OUC (pater), CER (soter), OUNOC (ouranos).
In the sixth century, began a decadence of the elegant uncial writing. Twists and turns were given to certain letters. In the seventh century, more letters received flourishes; accents and breathings were introduced; the writing leaned to the right.
These later features are obviously pathognomonic for their periods, allowing us to date manuscripts in which they appear.
The two earliest are “Codex Sinaiticus” and “Codex Vaticanus.” They are named after monasteries on Mount Sinai and in the Vatican, respectively. Both date from the early fourth century. These are also the earliest complete copies of the Bible known. They are also known as, “Aleph” (the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet) and “Beta” (the second letter of the Greek alphabet), respectively.
They are designated with successive English capital letters and a number, with a “0″ as the first digit. For instance, “Beta” is designated by B 03.
The next earliest uncial is “Codex Alexandria” from the fifth century and is designated as “A 02.” The only exception is “Aleph” which uses the Hebrew letter “Aleph” instead of an English letter.
MINUSCULES:
The next kind of manuscripts are the minuscules. They are so named since they are written in small connected, letters, and written with a running hand, with capitals only used as in modern day writing.
These are also called “cursives” (running) because they are written in running script. The minuscules date from the ninth to the fifteenth centuries, at which time they were superceded by print. The earliest is from the year 835 and is located in the Leningrad Public Library. There are about 2,800 know minuscules. They are simply numbered consecutively.
While uncials held sway in Biblical manuscripts, minuscules were employed in other works. During the ninth century, both uncial and minuscule manuscripts of the Bible were written. The latter show a form of writing so fully developed as to leave no doubt about its long standing use.
In addition to actual texts of the Greek NT, there are three additional sources to be consulted in textual criticism.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 12:48 PM
Manuscripts part 5
LECTIONARIES:
The first additional source are the lectionaries. These contain portions of Scriptures that have been divided up into readings for church services. There are approximately 2,200 known lectionaries. They date from the ninth to the fifteenth centuries and are designated by a fancy “l” with a superscript number.
PATRISTIC CITATIONS:
The second additional source are patristic citations. These are quotes of the NT in commentaries and other writings of the Church Fathers (church leaders during the centuries immediately following the Apostles). The use of these in textual criticism can be difficult since it cannot always be determined if the writer was copying the Biblical quote directly from a text, quoting it from memory or simply making an allusion to a Scripture verse.
There are dozens of Church Father’s which can be appealed to. Some of the more important are: Clement of Rome (c. 95), Ignatius (d. 117), Tertullian (c. 160-220), Origen (185-254), Clement of Alexandria (before 215), Hyppolytus (d. 235), Irenaeus (c. 250), Ambrose (c. 340-397), Chrysostom (344-407), and Augustine (354-430). Various abbreviations are used to designate these and other Patristic citations. It is easy to see how one can date the patristic citations. Since we know the period when they lived, manuscripts bearing their signature can be assigned a date appropriately.
PUNCTUATION
Until the discovery of the Qumran scrolls, the earliest Hebrew biblical manuscripts were from the ninth century A.D. Pious Jews destroyed worn-out copies to prevent them from falling into impious hands. There were, of course, earlier versions in other languages. With the discovery of the Scrolls, scholars were enabled to move back nearly 1,000 years in the history of the Hebrew text. The fidelity of textual transmission was obvious, for despite numerous variations no major alteration of the text had taken place.
Some Qumran manuscripts are closer to the LXX or Samaritan than to the Hebrew text, demonstrating that manuscripts with varying texts were in circulation during the first centuries B.C. and A.D., and that no one text had attained unique priority among the scribes of Qumran.
As Hebrew and Aramaic continued to be living languages during the first 500 years of the Christian era, there was little cause for concern about proper reading of the text. When these languages began to die, a group of Jewish scholars known as Massoretes came into being in Babylon and Palestine. Their work embraces a period roughly between A.D. 600 and 1000. They were, in a sense, successors to the scribes and deeply concerned with the purity and preservation of the text, but their efforts extended beyond care in copying because of the emergence of new problems.
The Hebrew text had been written without any division between words. Because Hebrew and Aramaic had become dead languages, the words were separated to give ease in reading. To keep the text constant, the Massoretes developed mechanical checks and counted the number of words and letters, noted the number of times the divine name was used or special words appeared, and determined the middle verses, words and letters of individual books.
Any manuscript that failed on any of these counts was defective. Efforts were made to correct scribal errors, although some “corrections” appear to have been made on dogmatic grounds. The Hebrew text had been recorded without vowels. The Massoretes invented a vowel system which was added to the text to preserve correct pronunciation.
“ Where the Massoretes questioned the reading, special notations were added, and the Massoretes distinguished between Kethib, what is written, and Qere, what is to be read. Perhaps the best known alteration was the placing of the vowels of ‘Adonai under the tetragrammaton YHWH, indicating that although the name is written YHWH ( Kethib) it is to be read ‘Adonai ( Qere). Most other notations of this kind rest upon grammatical rather than dogmatic reasoning. Massoretic notes placed in the margins of manuscripts became so extensive that they had to be compiled separately.”
Not all Massoretic traditions were in agreement. Babylonian scholars had developed a vowel system that differed from that of the Palestinian or Tiberias school. Because the Palestinian pattern prevailed, manuscripts with other notations fell into disrepute and began to disappear. Two of the most famous and most authoritative manuscripts by Palestinian Massoretes are from the tenth century: one by Moses ben David ben Naphtali is known as “ben Naphtali,” and the other by Aaron ben Moses ben Asher is known as “ben Asher.” The ben Asher text, the product of a family of Massoretes, is preferred and is the basic Hebrew text used by scholars and translators. The Massoretic text is designated by the letter M.
I have not been able to find any information in my research with respect to ornamentation, color of ink, texture and color of the parchment in the dating of manuscripts.
ROK // June 10, 2009 at 12:50 PM
Anonymous
“Only the devil himself, or one of his demons would think that remembering Christ (the purpose of breaking the bread and sharing the cup) is “distasteful” or describes such metings “as devilish by any standards.””
You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee. Why would a God want to be perpetrated in a symbolically cannibalistic way? Why did God require human sacrifice?
They have you so well steeped in it that they have you describing cannibalistic acts as a noble thing, yet you were not going to indulge in the eating of human or god’s flesh. That is the hypocrisy.
The thing is that to be a true Christian, you have to indulge. It is a dastardly and distasteful act.
For you information, this discussion has been conducted, not at any fairly high level at all, it was always and will continue to be at the level of “feacal effluent!” Simply because it is as far or further from the truth as the north pole is from the south; and just as disconnected.
So here it is you are spewing feacal effluent and feeling it to be so holy.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 12:56 PM
Manuscripts part 6
TEXT DIVISIONS
Just as differences among language groups over what books were inspired went back to their languages of composition, differences in names and spellings sometimes go back to the languages translators used.
The name used for the books sometimes depends on the translators or editors, what language they used and how they divided the manuscripts. For instance, did the translator treat Kings and Chronicles as one or separate works? These are parameters that can all be used in dating manuscripts.
By its threefold division, which antedates the prologue to Ecclesiasticus, into the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings, or Hagiographa, the Hebrew Bible differs considerably from the arrangement and order of the Septuagint, which have been adopted by the Vulgate and the Protestant versions.
The Law contained the five books of Moses in the unvarying order of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
The Prophets comprised the four books of the Former Prophets, in the unvarying order of Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings; and the four books of the Latter Prophets, Isaias, Jeremias, Ezechiel, Minor Prophets (all twelve counted as forming one book). The
Writings comprised the remaining eleven books, the poetical works, Psalms, Proverbs, Job, the five Megilloth, or Rolls (Canticle of Canticles, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecelesiastes, Esther), and finally Daniel, Esdras, Nehemias, Chronicles — twenty-four books in all, though perhaps more frequently reckoned as twenty-two by counting Ruth with Judges, and Lamentations with Jeremias.
The above order is that of the printed Bibles, which, in the ease of the Latter Prophets and the Hagiographa, differs widely from that prescribed in the Babylonian Talmud, while no fixed order obtains in the manuscripts.
In this arrangement the most noteworthy differences from the Vulgate are the classifying of the historical books as prophetical, the placing of the Latter Prophets before the Hagiographa, the ranking of Daniel not with the Prophets, but with the Hagiographa, and the grouping together of the five Rolls, which is a witness to the special favour they enjoyed of being read publicly on certain feasts. The Hebrew names for the sacred books of the Pentateuch differ from our own, which are derived from the Septuagint.
With the arrangement into books, the labours of the earliest editors seem to have ended; they made no further division into sections or chapters. The text at first was a close succession of consonantal letters without vowel-signs or spacing or punctuation to guide the reader; but Jewish scholars through many centuries of painstaking care have provided a most perfect system of helps to the intelligent reading of the Hebrew Bible.
Words were separated at an early date, perhaps before Christ. This was imperative, as the letters were frequently combined in different ways. The Septuagint translation bears witness not seldom to a combination different from the Massoretic.
Verse divisions, too, were made by the early scribes, who found this necessary not only to aid the reading, but to guard against the intrusion of new verses.
Uniformity did not obtain, however, as the Palestinian Jews, we are told, had shorter verses than the Babylonian. The present system is that of neither, but was partly a new arrangement elaborated by the Massoretes. The care taken is shown by the fact that every verse, in fact every letter, was counted by the scribes.
Our chapter divisions were unknown to early Jewish scholars, who had their own divisions, according to sense, into the open and closed sections.
A change in subject was marked by the open section, so called because of the vacant space showing its close, which was either the remainder of an unfilled line or a blank line succeeding a full line.
The closed section began a minor break in thought, indicated only by a short interval of space, the new section recommencing on the same line, or after a brief interval at the beginning of the next line.
In late manuscripts and in printed Bibles, the open section is indicated by the letter Pe in the vacant space preceding it, the closed section by the letter Samech. It is quite clear that observing this information assists us greatly today in dating manuscripts.
The Christian division into chapters, invented by Archbishop Stephen Langton about the beginning of the thirteenth century, has gained an entrance into the Hebrew Bible.
The beginning was made by Rabbi Solomon ben Ismael who first (c. A D. 1330) placed the numerals of these chapters in the margin of the Hebrew text.
In printed Bibles this system made its first appearance in the first two Bomberg editions of 1518. Arias Montanus, in his Antwerp Bible of 1571, “broke up the Hebrew text itself into chapters and introduced the Hebrew numerals into the body of the text itself” (Ginsburg).
This, though contrary to the Massoretic directions, is still followed in nearly all printed Bibles on account of its great usefulness. In most instances (617 out of 779) the chapter coincides with one or other of the Massoretic sections.
In Bomberg’s great Bible of 1547-8, Hebrew numerals were affixed to every fifth verse. It was in the above mentioned Antwerp Bible that the Arabic numerals for all the verses were first placed against them in the margin, though this had been done on a more limited scale in the “Basle Psalter” of 1563.
A further division of the text was for liturgical purposes. It was the custom in Palestine to complete the Pentateuch in Sabbath readings every three years; the various sections into which the text was thus divided were called sedarim.
The same name was applied to the sections from the Prophets and the Hagiographa appointed to be read at the same service. The length of a sedar may be judged approximately from the fact that the fifty chapters of Genesis are counted as forty-five sedarim, the forty chapters of Exodus as thirty-three sedarim.
Instead of the triennial cycle, the Babylonian Jews had an annual cycle, and the Talmud divides the Law into fifty-four sections called Parashiyoth, one for each Sabbath of the interealary year. The corresponding readings from the Prophets were called Haphtaroth, or dismissals, because they were read before the close of the service. (10)
The first divisions (586 B.C.) were of the Pentateuch into 154 groupings (sedarim) to facilitate its reading in a three-year cycle. Fifty years later it was further sectioned into 54 divisions (parashiyyoth) and into 669 smaller segments to assist in locating references. These were used in a one year reading cycle.
The Greeks made divisions around 250 A.D. The oldest system of chapter division is from about 350 A.D. in the margins of Codex Vaticanus.
It was not until the fourth and fifth centuries (A.D.) that biblical manuscripts divided the Gospels into smaller sections. The division of the Bible into chapters and verses is altogether of human invention, designed to facilitate reference to it.
The first verse indicators varied from spaces between words to letters or numbers. They were not systematically used universally. The first standard verse divisions were around 900 A.D.
The ancient Jews divided the Old Testament into certain sections for use in the synagogue service, and then at a later period, in the ninth century A.D., into verses.
Our modern system of chapters for all the books of the Bible was introduced by Cardinal Hugo about the middle of the thirteenth century (he died 1263).
The division into chapters now followed by all goes back to Stephen Langton a professor at the University of Paris in the 13th century, and afterward Archbishop of Canterbury. This division was then used in the Parisian edition of the Vulgate (Latin translation of St. Jerome).
The division into verses came with Robert Estienne in the 16th century. The point is that a lot of hands were involved in shaping modern editions and translations of the Bible.
The system of verses for the New Testament was introduced by Stephens in 1551, and generally adopted, although neither Tyndale’s nor Coverdale’s English translation of the Bible has verses. The division is not always wisely made, yet it is very useful. The Latin Vulgate was the first Bible to incorporate both verse and chapter divisions in both Old and New Testaments.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 1:00 PM
Manuscripts part 7
VERSIONS
A version is a translation of the holy Scriptures. This word is not found in the Bible, nevertheless, as frequent references are made in this work to various ancient as well as modern versions, it is fitting that some brief account should be given of the most important of these. These versions are important helps to the right interpretation of the Word and also in dating manuscripts.
1. The Targums. After the return from the Captivity, the Jews, no longer familiar with the old Hebrew, required that their Scriptures should be translated for them into the Chaldaic or Aramaic language and interpreted. These translations and paraphrases were at first oral, but they were afterwards reduced to writing, and thus targums, i.e., “versions” or “translations”, have come down to us.
The chief of these are, The Onkelos Targum, i.e., the targum of Akelas=Aquila, a targum so called to give it greater popularity by comparing it with the Greek translation of Aquila mentioned below. This targum originated about the second century after Christ. The targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel comes next to that of Onkelos in respect of age and value. It is more a paraphrase on the Prophets, however, than a translation. Both of these targums issued from the Jewish school which then flourished at Babylon.
2. The Greek Versions.
The oldest of these is the Septuagint, usually quoted as the LXX. The origin of this the most important of all the versions is involved in much obscurity. It derives its name from the popular notion that seventy-two translators were employed on it by the direction of Ptolemy Philadelphus, king of Egypt, and that it was accomplished in seventy-two days, for the use of the Jews residing in that country. There is no historical warrant for this notion. It is, however, an established fact that this version was made at Alexandria; that it was begun about 280 B.C., and finished about 200 or 150 B.C.; that it was the work of a number of translators who differed greatly both in their knowledge of Hebrew and of Greek; and that from the earliest times it has borne the name of
“The Septuagint”, i.e., The Seventy.
“This version, with all its defects, must be of the greatest interest, (a) as preserving evidence for the text far more ancient than the oldest Hebrew manuscripts; (b) as the means by which the Greek Language was wedded to Hebrew thought; (c) as the source of the great majority of quotations from the Old Testament by writers of the New Testament.
3. The Syriac Versions.
4. The Latin Versions. A Latin version of the Scriptures, called the “Old Latin,” which originated in North Africa, was in common use in the time of Tertullian (A.D. 150). Of this there appear to have been various copies or recensions made. That made in Italy, and called the Itala, was reckoned the most accurate. This translation of the Old Testament seems to have been made not from the original Hebrew but from the LXX.
This version became greatly corrupted by repeated transcription, and to remedy the evil Jerome (A.D. 329-420) was requested by Damasus, the bishop of Rome, to undertake a complete revision of it. It met with opposition at first, but was at length, in the seventh century, recognized as the “Vulgate” version. It appeared in a printed from about A.D. 1455, the first book that ever issued from the press.
The Council of Trent (1546) declared it “authentic.” It subsequently underwent various revisions, but that which was executed (1592) under the sanction of Pope Clement VIII. was adopted as the basis of all subsequent editions. It is regarded as the sacred original in the Roman Catholic Church. All modern European versions have been more or less influenced by the Vulgate. This version reads ipsa_ instead of _ipse in, Gen 3:15 “She shall bruise thy head.”
5. There are several other ancient versions which are of importance for Biblical critics, but which we need not mention particularly, such as the Ethiopic, in the fourth century, from the LXX.; two Egyptian versions, about the fourth century, the Memphitic, circulated in Lower Egypt, and the Thebaic, designed for Upper Egypt, both from the Greek; the Gothic, written in the German language, but with the Greek alphabet, by Ulphilas (died A.D. 388), of which only fragments of the Old Testament remain; the Armenian, about A.D. 400; and the Slavonic, in the ninth century, for ancient Moravia. Other ancient versions, as the Arabic, the Persian, and the Anglo-Saxon, may be mentioned.
6. The history of the English versions begins properly with Wyckliffe. Portions, however, of the Scriptures were rendered into Saxon (as the Gospel according to John, by Bede, A.D. 735), and also into English (by Orme, called the “Ormulum,” a portion of the Gospels and of the Acts in the form of a metrical paraphrase, toward the close of the seventh century), long before Wyckliffe; but it is to him that the honour belongs of having first rendered the whole Bible into English (A.D. 1380). This version was made from the Vulgate, and renders Genesis 3:15 after that Version, “She shall trede thy head.”
This was followed by Tyndale’s translation (1525-1531); Miles Coverdale’s (1535-1553); Thomas Matthew’s (1537), really, however, the work of John Rogers, the first martyr under the reign of Queen Mary. This was properly the first Authorized Version, Henry VIII. having ordered a copy of it to be got for every church. This took place in less than a year after Tyndale was martyred for the crime of translating the Scriptures.
In 1539 Richard Taverner published a revised edition of Matthew’s Bible. The Great Bible, so called from its great size, called also Cranmer’s Bible, was published in 1539 and 1568. In the strict sense, the “Great Bible” is “the only authorized version; for the Bishops’ Bible and the present Bible [the A.V.] never had the formal sanction of royal authority.” Next in order was the Geneva version (1557-1560); the Bishops’ Bible (1568); the Rheims and Douai versions, under Roman Catholic auspices (1582,1609); the Authorized Version (1611); and the Revised Version of the New Testament in 1880 and of the Old Testament in 1884.
However, for many centuries before the division of the Geneva Bible, Hebrew Bibles had been divided into portions, called parashiot* (parasha, singular) in Hebrew.
These portions-parashiot were literary units. They were divided into two types, open portions and closed portions. An open portion, parasha, was one in which the subject of the portion continues into the next portion. These portions are marked in the Hebrew Bible with “ppp,” The Hebrew letter “p” stands for patuah which means open. A closed parasha, on the other hand,is one that ends a subject. These portions are marked in the Hebrew Bible with “xxx,” the letter “x” stands for sagur which means closed.
These portions were a division that also facilitated the weekly reading of the Torah in the synagogues. In the Hebrew Bible the parashiot normally received their names by the first word of the parasha, or the first main idea with which the parasha was dealing.
Each portion was matched with a section from the prophetic writings, and these were called “aftarot.” “Aftara” in the singular is an Aramaic word that means “following” or, as in English “after.” In the gospel of Luke, chapter 4, we are told the story of Yeshua reading the “aftara”.This”aftara” of Isaiah chapter 61, goes along with the reading of Parashat Nitzavim, Deuteronomy, chapter 29:9-30:20. In today’s Jewish reading of the Torah, this parasha is read in the synagogues around the whole world just before the Jewish New Year, Rosh Hashanah. During this time, Jews think of their sins and get ready to start the ten days of repentance, preceding the Day of Atonement–Yom Kippur.
Jews recommend that one read both the parashiot and the aftarot when one reads the Torah, and that readers,as diligent students of God’s word, ask themselves what made the rabbis choose and match each “aftara” from the prophets with the particular “parasha” from the Torah.
When one compares the Bible in different languages, especially the Hebrew and the English editions, it immediately becomes clear that there are major differences in the order of the books. In the Hebrew Bible, the five books of Moses, have no logical names The names are taken from the first words of every book. The book of Leviticus is called, “Vayikra” which means “And He called.” The book of Deuteronomy is called in Hebrew,”Devarim”which means “words.” This is so because the text of this book starts with the words, “These are the words of Moses.” Other differences are in the order of the books Ruth, in the English Bible, is related to the period of the Judges, and it is found right after the book of Judges and before the books of Samuel. However, in the Hebrew Bible, the book of Ruth is found after the Minor Prophets, between the Song of Songs and Lamentations. In the English Bible the books of Chronicles are right after the books of Kings. In the Hebrew Bible the books of Chronicles are the last books of the Old Covenant. The same is true with the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. They come just before the books of Chronicles at the very end of the Tanakh in the Hebrew Bible.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 1:04 PM
MANUSCRIPTS PART 8
Now let us have a closer look to see that there are differences between the chapter and verse division. At times the division to chapters and verses is rather arbitrary and does not fit the logical or literary structure of the text. Let me point out to our readers a few examples of these differences: The Book of Malachi in the Hebrew Bible goes until chapter 3:23. In the English Bible it goes to chapter 4:6. All the material exists in both the Hebrew and the English versions, but the chapter division is different.
In the book of Joel, we have the reverse condition. The Hebrew Joel has 4 chapters. The English book of Joel has 3 chapters. In the Hebrew, chapter 3 consists of the five verses of the famous prophecy that God is going to pour out His Spirit on all flesh. In the English Bible these five verses appear as verses 28-32 of chapter 2.
The book of Psalms has the greatest discrepancy between the Hebrew and English versions. From chapter 3 on, most of the Hebrew Psalms have one extra verse than the English edition. The reason is that the English edition joins the opening of the Psalm with the first verse and they become one verse. The Hebrew edition has a separate verse for the opening. In the case of Psalm 80, we see that the Hebrew edition has two extra verses that are all included in the English Bible into one verse.
These examples serve to demonstrate that the chapter and verse divisions in our Bible are not as universal and old as some might have thought. The Hebrew Bible and the division into “parashiot” in the Torah and “aftarot” in the prophets, was used for many centuries before the modern chapter and verse divisions. However, we must admit that the Jewish people very quickly adopted the chapter and verse system from the “Christian” Bibles. The differences occurred because the “Christian” Bibles underwent a number of corrections with each new translation, but the Hebrew Bible remained and kept the older version of the chapter and verse divisions.
It is worth our while to know these technical details about our Bibles. This ought to help us find things between our two editions, and also be aware of the fact that the order and names and subdivisions of our Bibles are not divinely given, but are just man made tools and helps for the students of God’s Word.
All of the evidence that we have gathered from the manuscripts in our possession when pieced together tend to corroborate and strengthen each other piece of evidence.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 1:07 PM
Manuscripts part 9
How do we know when we have found the Truth of an ancient MS?
Because the Bible is a book, it was initially made up of manuscripts.
Consequently a primary means for ascertaining its credibility today are the number of copies from those manuscripts which are currently in one’s possession.
The more copies we have the better we can compare between them and thus know if the document we now read corresponds with the original. It is much like a witness to an event. If we have only one witness to the event, there is the possibility that the witness’s agenda or even an exaggeration of the event has crept in and we would never know the full truth.
But if we have many witnesses, the probability that they all got it wrong becomes minute.
Because of time and wear many of the historical documents from the ancient world have few manuscripts to which we can refer.
This is specially true when we consider the secular historians and philosophers. For instance, we only have eight copies of Herodotus’s historical works, whose originals were written in 480-425 BC.
Likewise, only 5 copies of Aristotle’s writings have found their way to the 20th century, while only 10 copies of the writings of Caesar, along with another 20 copies of the historian Tacitus, and 7 copies from the historian Pliny, who all originally wrote in the first century, are available today . These are indeed very few.
When we consider the New Testament, however, we find a completely different scenario. We have today in our possession 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, another 10,000 Latin Vulgates, and 9,300 other early versions (MSS), giving us more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today!
Though we do not have any originals, with such a wealth of documentation at our disposal with which to compare, we can delineate quite closely what those originals contained.
According to research done by Kurt and Barbara Aland, a total of 230 manuscript portions are currently in existence which pre-date 600 AD! These can be broken down into 192 Greek New Testament manuscripts, 5 Greek lectionaries containing scripture, and 33 translations of the Greek New Testament.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 1:12 PM
Manuscripts part 10
Muslims assert that we have similar problems concerning the large number of years which separate the manuscripts from the events which they speak about.
Yet, unlike the Qur’an which was compiled much more recently, we do not find with the Bible such an enormous gap of time between that which the Bible speaks about and when it was written down.
In fact, outside of the book of Revelation and the three letters of John considered to have been written later, when we look at the rest of the New Testament books, there is no longer any solid basis for dating them later than 80 AD, or 50 years after the death of Jesus Christ Most of the New Testament was likely written before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and perhaps before the fire of Rome (64 AD), and the subsequent persecution of Christians, since none of these events, which would have had an enormous impact on the nascent Christian community are mentioned in any of the New Testament writings.
Had the documents been compiled in the second century as Muslims claim, then certainly they would have mentioned these very important events.
This same logic can be taken a step further. Take for instance the martyrdoms of James in 62 AD, Paul in 64 AD, and Peter in 65 AD. All were leaders in the nascent church. Thus their deaths were momentous events for the early Christian community. Yet we find none of the deaths referred to in any of the 27 canonized books of the New Testament (and significantly not in Acts, the most comprehensive historical record we have of the early church). The only explanation can be that they were all written prior to these events, and thus likely before 62 AD, or a mere 30 years after the death of Jesus, of whose life they primarily refer.
A further criticism concerns whether the copies we possess are credible. Since we do not possess the originals, people ask, how can we be sure they are identical to them?
The initial answer is that we will never be completely certain, for there is no means at our disposal to reproduce the originals. This has always been a problem with all known ancient documents.
Yet this same question is rarely asked of other historical manuscripts which we refer to constantly. If they are held to be credible, let’s then see how the New Testament compares with them. Let’s compare below the time gaps for the New Testament documents with other credible secular documents.
There were several historians of the ancient world whose works are quite popular. Thucydides, who wrote History of the Peloponnesian War, lived from 460 BC to 400 BC. Virtually everything we know about the war comes from his history.
Yet, the earliest copy of any manuscripts of Thucydides’ work dates around 900 AD, a full 1,300 years later!
The Roman historian Suetonius lived between AD 70 to 140 AD. Yet the earliest copy of his book The Twelve Caesars is dated around AD 950, a full 800 years later.
The chart below reveals the time gaps of these and other works from the ancient world and compares them to the earliest New Testament manuscripts (taken from McDowell 1972:42, & Bruce 1943:16-17).
What one notices almost immediately from the table is that the New Testament manuscript copies which we possess today were compiled very early, a number of them hundreds of years before the earliest copy of a secular manuscript.
This not only shows the importance the early Christians gave to preserving their scriptures, but the enormous wealth we have today for early Biblical documentation.
What is even more significant however, are the differences in time spans between the original manuscripts and the copies of both the biblical and secular manuscripts.
It is well known in historical circles that the closer a document can be found to the event it describes the more credible it is.
The time span for the biblical manuscript copies listed above are all within 350 years of the originals, some as early as 130-250 years and one even purporting to coexist with the original (i.e. the Magdalene Manuscript fragments of Matthew 26), while the time span for the secular manuscript copies are much greater, between 750-1,400 years!
This indeed gives enormous authority to the biblical manuscript copies, as no other ancient piece of literature can make such close time comparisons.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 1:17 PM
Manuscripts part 11
Because of its importance to our discussion here a special note needs to be given to the Magdalene Manuscript mentioned above. Until two years ago, the oldest assumed manuscript which we possessed was the St. John papyrus (P52), housed in the John Rylands museum in Manchester, and dated at 120 AD
Thus, it was thought that the earliest New Testament manuscript could not be corroborated by eyewitnesses to the events.
That assumption has now changed, for three even older manuscripts, one each from the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke have now been dated earlier than the Johannine account. It is two of these three findings which I believe will completely change the entire focus of the critical debate on the authenticity of the Bible. Let me explain.
The Lukan papyrus, situated in a library in Paris has been dated to the late 1st century or early 2nd century, so it predates the John papyrus by 20-30 years.
But of more importance are the manuscript findings of Mark and Matthew! New research which has now been uncovered by Dr. Carsten Thiede, and is published in his newly released book on the subject, the Jesus Papyrus mentions a fragment from the book of Mark found among the Qumran scrolls (fragment 7Q5) showing that it was written sometime before 68 AD
It is important to remember that Christ died in 33 AD, so this manuscript could have been written, at the latest, within 35 years of His death; possibly earlier, and thus during the time that the eyewitnesses to that event were still alive!
The most significant find, however, is a manuscript fragment from the book of Matthew (chapt.26) called the Magdalene Manuscript which has been analysed by Dr. Carsten Thiede, and also written up in his book The Jesus Papyrus.
Using a sophisticated analysis of the handwriting of the fragment by employing a special state-of-the-art microscope, he differentiated between 20 separate micrometer layers of the papyrus, measuring the height and depth of the ink as well as the angle of the stylus used by the scribe.
After this analysis Thiede was able to compare it with other papyri from that period; notably manuscripts found at Qumran (dated to 58 AD), another at Herculaneum (dated prior to 79 AD), a further one from the fortress of Masada (dated to between 73/74 AD), and finally a papyrus from the Egyptian town of Oxyrynchus.
The Magdalene Manuscript fragments matches all four, and in fact is almost a twin to the papyrus found in Oxyrynchus, which bears the date of 65/66 AD
Thiede concludes that these papyrus fragments of St. Matthew’s Gospel were written no later than this date and probably earlier.
That suggests that we either have a portion of the original gospel of Matthew, or an immediate copy which was written while Matthew and the other disciples and eyewitnesses to the events were still alive.
This would be the oldest manuscript portion of our Bible in existence today, one which co-exists with the original writers!
What is of even more importance is what it says. The Matthew 26 fragment uses in its text nomina sacra (holy names) such as the diminutive “IS” for Jesus and “KE” for Kurie or Lord (The Times, Saturday, December 24, 1994).
This is highly significant for our discussion today, because it suggests that the godhead of Jesus was recognised centuries before it was accepted as official church doctrine at the council of Nicea in 325 AD There is still ongoing discussion concerning the exact dating of this manuscript.
However, if the dates prove to be correct then this document alone completely eradicates the criticism levelled against the gospel accounts (such as the “Jesus Seminar”) that the early disciples knew nothing about Christ’s divinity, and that this concept was a later redaction imposed by the Christian community in the second century (AD).
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Manuscripts part 12
We have other manuscript evidence for the New Testament as well:
Besides the 24,000 manuscripts we have more than 15,000 existing copies of the various versions written in the Latin and Syriac (Christian Aramaic), some of which were written as early as 150 A.D., such as the Syriac Peshitta (150-250 A.D.)
Because Christianity was a missionary faith from its very inception (Matthew 28:19-20), the scriptures were immediately translated into the known languages of that period. For that reason other written translations appeared soon after, such as Coptic translations (early 3rd and 4th centuries), Armenian (400 A.D.), Gothic (4th century), Georgian (5th century), Ethiopic (6th century), and Nubian (6th century)
The fact that we have so many translations of the New Testament points to its authenticity, as it would have been almost impossible, had the disciples or later followers wanted to corrupt or forge its contents, for them to have amassed all of the translations from the outlying areas and changed each one so that there would have been the uniformity which we find witnessed in these translations today.
The practice of reading passages from the New Testament books at worship services began from the 6th century, so that today we have 2,135 lectionaries which have been catalogued from this period (McDowell 1972:52). If there had been a forgery, they too would have all had to have been changed.
But possibly the greatest attestation for the authority of our New Testament are the masses of quotations taken from its pages by the early church fathers. Dean Burgon in his research found in all 86,489 quotes from the early church fathers . In fact, there are 32,000 quotations from the New Testament found in writings from before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.. J. Harold Greenlee points out that the quotations of the scripture in the works of the early church writers are so extensive that the New Testament could virtually be reconstructed from them without the use of New Testament manuscripts.
Sir David Dalrymple sought to do this, and from the second and third century writings of the church fathers he found the entire New Testament quoted except for eleven verses . Thus, we could throw the New Testament manuscripts away and still reconstruct it with the simple help of these letters. Some examples of these are (from McDowell’s Evidence…, pg. 51):
Clement (30- 95 A.D.) quotes from various sections of the New Testament.
Ignatius (70-110 A.D.) knew the apostles and quoted directly from 15 of the 27 books.
Polycarp (70-156 A.D.) was a disciple of John and quoted from the New Testament.
Thus the manuscript evidence at our disposal today gives us over 24,000 manuscripts with which to corroborate our current New Testament. The earliest of these manuscripts have now been dated earlier than 60-70 A.D., so within the lifetime of the original writers, and with an outside possibility that they are the originals themselves. On top of that we have 15,000 early translations of the New Testament, and over 2,000 lectionaries. And finally we have scriptural quotations in the letters of the early Church fathers with which we could almost reproduce the New Testament if we so wished. This indeed is substantial manuscript evidence for the New Testament.
So what comparisons are there between the manuscript evidence for the Qur’an and the Bible? We know from the historical record that by the end of the seventh century the Arabs had expanded right across North Africa and up into Spain, and east as far as India. The Qur’an (according to later Islamic tradition) was the centrepiece of their faith and practice at that time. Certainly within that enormous sphere of influence there should therefore be some Qur’anic manuscripts which still exist till this day. Yet, there is nothing from that period at all. The only manuscripts which Islam provides turn out to have been compiled in the ninth century, while the earliest corroborated manuscript is dated 790 A.D., written not 1400 years ago as Muslims claim but a mere 1,200 years ago.
While Christianity can claim more than 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, 10,000 Latin Vulgates and at least 9,300 other early versions, adding up to over 24,000 corroborated New Testament manuscripts still in existence (McDowell 1990:43-55), most of which were written between 25-400 years after the death of Christ (or between the 1st and 5th centuries) (McDowell 1972:39-49), Islam cannot provide a single manuscript until well into the eighth century (Lings & Safadi 1976:17; Schimmel 1984:4-6). If the Christians could retain so many thousands of ancient manuscripts, all of which were written long before the Qur’an, at a time when paper had not yet been introduced, forcing the dependency on papyrus which disintegrated with age, then one wonders why the Muslims are not able to forward a single manuscript from this much later period, during which the Qur’an was supposedly revealed? This indeed gives the Bible a much stronger claim for reliability than the Qur’an.
Furthermore, while the earliest New Testament manuscripts as well as the earliest letters from the church fathers correspond with the New Testament which we have in our hands, providing us with some certainty that they have not been unduly added to or tampered with, the Qur’anic material which we have in our possession abounds with stories whose origins we can now trace to second century Jewish and Christian apocryphal literature. We know in some cases who wrote them, when exactly they were written and at times even why they were written; and that none of them were from a divine source, as they were written by the most human of Rabbis and storytellers over the intervening centuries after the Bible had been canonized.
It seems that we have every confidence to think that we have conclusive evidence to conclude that our techniques for dating ancient manuscripts are quite sound, and that we can be quite sure that we have found the truth in the several ancient manuscripts of the Bible in our possession.
Georgie Porgie // June 10, 2009 at 1:19 PM
I hope that this comprehensive study of CANONICITY will be a source of illumination to those with an interest in how we got our Bible.
Hopi // June 10, 2009 at 2:54 PM
@Georgie Porgie………..No it is not. Your bible is nothing more than patchwork.
Hotep my friend!
Zoe // June 11, 2009 at 10:24 AM
JJ, You Sabbatarians believe, and erroneously so, that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the ‘Seal’ of God, for the end-time remnant church; that the sign or seal of God, is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, and that the mark of the beast is the opposite of this, the observance of the first day of the week, Sunday.
However, what does the self-authenticating Word of Almighty God say in the New Testament, regarding who IS the ‘Seal’ upon all Justified believers, who is our SEAL?
The Bible, the Word of God states:
“You were MARKED in Him with a SEAL, the promised (Sabbath day, NO! The) HOLY SPIRIT” (Eph. 1:13)
Again, we read:
“Do not grieve the HOLY SPIRIT of God, with whom you WERE SEALED for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30).
On this “Ye were SEALED” A.T. Robertson, A.M., D.D., LL.D., Litt.D, Professor of New Testament Interpretation, gives the following sound exegesis:
“Ye were sealed (esphragisthete). First aorist passive indicative of ’sphragizo’, old verb, to set a SEAL on one as a mark or stamp, sometimes the marks of ownership or of worship of deities like stigmata (Gal. 6:17). Marked and authenticated as God’s heritage as in 4:30. See II Cor. 1:22 for the very use of the metaphor here applied to the Holy Spirit, even with the word ‘arrabon’ [earnest]. Spirit [pneumati]. In the instrumental case. (Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. IV, The Epistles of Paul, p. 519).
It is a very serious matter, to either ADD or TAKE AWAY from God’s Word, as we are warned NOT to do.
Sabbatarians are famous for doing this, they eisegete (read into a text) what is neither explicitely stated, nor even remotely implied, in order to sustain their fabricated, unbiblical ‘dogma’ this is a very dangerous problem with ‘cults’ and cultic systems.
Georgie Porgie // June 11, 2009 at 10:40 AM
Again Zoe by referring to the use of words used in the text exemplifies what is sometimes needed in order to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH!
Such word studies are done by serious students of the Word when faced with texts that are difficult to understand, or controversial, simply because man likes to adhere arrogantly to his traditions or silly thinking rather than trying to faithfully follow the Word of God.
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:11 PM
STILL QUOTING Georgie Porgie: “Not only is your definition of the mark of the beast unscriptural and unsensible, but your answer reveals that you have taken the text about what the mark as mentioned in Revelation far out of context.”
I have yet to write a full explanation of how the Mark of the Beast is related to Sunday observance, mainly because of a lack of time on my part. So far I’ve been gladly giving little morsels of evidence here and there with regards to the mark, while simultaneously answering your other questions and exposing your errors. But please, if you wish to lay such heavy accusations against me, bring some evidence against me to the court room. How is my position any more removed from context than yours?
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:11 PM
QUOTE: “Such denominational dogma and diatribe not supported by Scriptures properly divided in thier context will be severely dealt with on this thread. So take fresh gaurd and exegete correctly.”
Once again, you have assumed that I am prejudiced with “denominational dogma.” Please read my post on the history of today’s prophetic interpretations and do some research and realize that if anything, YOUR understanding is the one that is part of “denominational dogma.”
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:11 PM
QUOTE: “Please understand that blog members expect the WORD TO BE CORRECTLY DIVIDED, and that TEXT BE QUOTED & DEALT WITH WITHIN THIER CONTEXTS.”
Should you perhaps consider removing yourself from the blog then?
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:12 PM
QUOTE: “To begin with please explain and exegete Galatians 3: 24-25, even though this has nothing to do with the mark of the beast.”
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The Law here is the 10 Commandments. This is the Law which reveals our sin. It FUNCTIONS by condemning us as GUILTY. When we are overwhelmed with our guilt, we realize we cannot justify ourselves but we are in need of a Saviour from sin. Therefore we flee to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Once we are in Christ, we no longer need the Law’s function of overwhelming us with a sense of our sin. This is not to say that the Law is gone but faith establishes the Law (Rom 3:31).
There is a whole lot to say about these two verses within the surrounding context of Galatians 3. Come back to me with your specific questions and I’ll answer you.
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:12 PM
Hi Zoe,
How are you?
On 27 May you wrote…
QUOTE: “JJ, If you are in fact a SDA, believing that the SDA church is God’s last-day, true church, or “the remnant church” based primarily on two passages in the book of Revelation, as follows:
“And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the ‘rest’ of her offspring, who keep the ‘commandments of God’ and hold to the ‘testimony of Jesus’ (Rev. 12:17).
And;
“And I fell at his feet to worship him…And he said to me, ‘Do not do that; I am a fellow-servant of yours and your brethren who hold ‘the testominy of Jesus’; worship God…For ‘the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy” (Rev. 19:10) emphasis added.
JJ, what exactly does “Commandments of God” mean here in this context; and, secondly, what does ‘the testimony of Jesus and the spirit of prophesy’ mean?”
I’m not SDA and I do not believe that the SDA church is the “God’s last-day, true church, or the remnant church.”
The “Commandments of God” is His Law – the 10 Commandments. He is unchanging and His Law is unchanging. There is not one Law of the Father and one Law of Christ because there is only One Lawgiver. Christ did nothing of His own but did the will of God and had the Law of God written in His heart.
The “testimony of Jesus” is the “Spirit of prophecy.” On one level this refers to the Scriptures – the Word of God (Jesus is the Word and He is testifying) came through the Spirit of inspiration as men of old were moved by the Spirit. The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit. Using this same criteria however, the Spirit of prophecy in an end time eschatological setting, refers also to the writings of Ellen G. White. Please note though, I need not be SDA to hold this position. Neither do I revere Sister White. However, she is clearly a prophetess of God for the last days and was and still is used by God to point the church of our time to present truth.
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:12 PM
Hello again Georgie Porgie!
On your 28 May response, you wrote…
QUOTE: “… you quoted Daniel 12:1, Jeremiah 30:7, out of context and with regard to the fact that these verses refer NOT TO THE CHURCH WHO ARE NOT MENTIONED IN THE OT, AND WHO WILL BE INDEED RAPTURED, then you contradict yourself by quoting Rev 3:10 and Matt 28:20, which DO refer to the church, and the dispensation of the church or the age of grace!”
You claim I’ve misapplied Daniel and Jeremiah. But you have not offered an alternate application. Please let me know who are referred to in Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:7 then?
You seem to equate “the dispensation of the church” with “the age of grace.” Are you implying there was no grace prior to this church age? Are you sure you are not spewing “denominational dogma”?
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:12 PM
QUOTE: “Again John 17:15 refers to the church age, as Christ was speaking to men who represented and stood at the point of the changing of the guard. These men were at the beginning of the Church age.”
So what age are we in then? Are you saying these words of Jesus are limited to those “men who represented and stood at the point of the changing of the guard.”?
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:12 PM
QUOTE: “When we talk about Rightly dividing the Word of Truth and about Hermeneutics and Dispenstions & Covenants here on BU in the past, folk have frowned and scoffed, but you can see what we mean now, I hope.”
I haven’t had time yet to go through past BU posts, but just out of curiosity, why have people frowned and scoffed at this?
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:13 PM
QUOTE: “BTW What is spiritual Israel?”
Those who are true children of God.
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:13 PM
QUOTE: “And what does that have to do with the price of cheese?”
Nothing =)
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:13 PM
QUOTE: “People from all nations WILL BE PRESENT on earth when the four winds are being loosed.”
I never said they wouldn’t.
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:14 PM
QUOTE: “144,ooo servants of the Lord (Jews) will be protected as they do their evangelism, after which they are slain.”
True, except for the last phrase “after which they are slain.” Where does this idea come from?
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:14 PM
QUOTE: “Though the Israelites were present during the 10 plagues in Egypt when Pharaoh was ignoring the warnings of God through Moses, they were NOT affected by any of the plagues in anyway.”
That’s exactly my point!
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:14 PM
QUOTE: “The Israelites were spared because they were believers at all Sir as you opine! They were delivered by God’s grace at that time. In fact ALL, every single one of them fell in the wilderness after wards except Joshua and Caleb because of THEIR UNBELIEF!
The Lord spared the Old Testament Hebrews by causing the destroying angel to “pass over” the houses of the believers so the plague would not harm them as A TYPE OF SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST.”
I’m not sure I understand your first sentence – “The Israelites were spared because they were believers at all Sir as you opine.” Are you saying that it is simply my opinion that the Israelites were spared? Because if you are, then all I can say is that this is also your opinion, and for proof, I cite YOU: “The Lord spared the Old Testament Hebrews by causing the destroying angel to “pass over” the houses of the BELIEVERS so the plague would not harm them…”
In any case, it seems we both believe the same thing with regards to this.
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:14 PM
QUOTE: “In like manner believers who today believe in the ANTITYPE THE LORD JESUS will be spared.”
Yes, they will be, as you say “SPARED,” but not raptured out of this world!
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:15 PM
QUOTE: “Fellow, you contradicting yourself when you quote Romans 5:9, which was directed to folk in the church age and refers to the church!”
How do I contradict myself? I’ve only given a consistent testimony – that salvation is through Christ alone, whether we’re talking about the Israelites back in Egypt, or about Christians today.
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:15 PM
QUOTE: “Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” You wrote and correctly so that The Lord protected His own in the Old Testament by the blood of the lamb sacrifice, and He promises to protect us New Testament believers by the “…the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) Both sets of believers show their faith by the blood of Christ, do they not? The Old Testament believers trusted God by a show of faith by placing the blood of a lamb upon the doorposts of their houses, we have the Blood of the Lamb upon the doorposts of the heart.
But you have taken Psalms 91:10 out of its context to make your pretext or point! Being raptured before the judgements of Rev 6-19 has nothing to do with our dwellings. We wont need to worry about dwellings because John 14 states that In my Father’s house are MANY DWELLING PLACES (translated in the KJV as mansions).”
What does Psalm 91 refer to then?
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:15 PM
QUOTE: “You wrote
The obedient true child of God is indeed NOT subject to the wrath of God! So WHO IS the subject of God’s wrath? And correctly cite John 3:36; Rom 1:18; Rom 2:5; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6
You then ask
If we are not present during all the time of trouble, please explain these verses:
Psa.27.5 ; Psa.37.39 and Matt.10.17-22 none of which have nothing to do with the issue at hand Sir.
Matt.10.17-22 refers from the context to evangelists in the church age.
Matt 24:9-14 & Matt.24.22-27 & Luke 21:28 refer to the tribulation period and particularly to the Jews again from the context, as Jesus related the answer to the question of the two pairs of brothers to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, ie Daniel 8
John.16.33 and Acts.14.22 refers to the trials or testings that believers have been predicted to endure during the Church age. James 1:12 tells us about WHEN we are tested, and both Peter & Paul predict trials or testings and tribulation for believers BUT AT NO TIME DOES THE WORDSAY THAT BELIEVERS OF THE CHURCH AGE WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION.”
Rev.1.7 refers to the epiphanea or glorious coming of Christ or the second phase of the second coming.
2 Thes 2:9 refers to the rise of antichrist
Rev.7.14 has nothing to do with folk from the dispensation of the church age or the age of grace, but to do with the dispensation of the tribulation period which lasts seven years.”
You make up various “ages” and then assign the Scriptures to these ages according to your own fairy tale. Seriously, show me how the verses I’ve given you DON’T (as you claim), apply to the “church age.” Don’t just tell me it doesn’t but please show me using the Scriptures.
JJ // June 11, 2009 at 12:15 PM
QUOTE: “JJ I am glad that you are not part of any “denominational dogma.” And I am sorry that your wide reading – and it seems that you have made an effort- has caused you to depart from the truth.
I do not care whether my beliefs is very prevalent among many Protestant churches today or not. My beliefs are formed from my study of the Word and my wide reading just as you did. I in contrast have not apostasized! LOL I hold to a a pre-trib rapture / futurism end time scenario as you call it because I believe that is what the Bible teaches, and not what mamma taught me or the pastor of the local church etc
I have read church History and all about the Protestant Reformation
Though I find the writings of John Nelson Darby generally hard to read because of the English, his teaxchings and that of the Plymouth Brethren and their writers like Grant , Kelly, Ironside ad Arthur Pink are in my opinion all in the top drawer Sir!
So too are the notes in the margins of Scofield Reference Bible. The Moody Bible Institute and the Dallas Theological Seminary have in general produced great teachers and sound expositors of the Word, including J Vernon McGee, and Hal Hal Lindsey is a joy to listen to as he relates the current world affairs to the Biblical passages that relate to the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ! At least he knows which dispensation to place the chapters from Ezekiel 35-39!
How can you tell someone that they have fallen for some type of interpretation when very often in your treatise above you routinely quote scriptures out of their context and seek to use them dishonestly to prove your points? How?”
You’re asking what amounts to what you call “non sequiter”.
ROK // June 11, 2009 at 1:30 PM
The masters of Division; they not only divide the word, they also divide men. They are the real scoffers, they scoff at people with differing opinions. They curse them and heap much verbal and mental abuse on those who don’t believe what they believe in;
The call themselves Christians and they eat flesh and drink blood. You shall know them by their fruit.
These are the ones the Creator will eliminate in the process of natural selection and ordering. The Creator is the real Anti-Christ.
Zoe // June 11, 2009 at 8:09 PM
JJ, In responding to GP, re Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:7, you say:
“You claimed I’ve misapplied Daniel and Jeremiah. But you have not offered an alternate application. Please let me know who is reffered to in Daniel 12:1 and jeremiah 30:7, then?
Daniel 12: 1-13, is dealing with Prophecies concerning Israel, not the Church.
“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy PEOPLE: and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy PEOPLE shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” (v.1)
Daniel is prophecying concerning the nation of Israel, ‘A time of trouble’ the last three and one-half years of Daniel’s Seventieth Week (Matt. 24:21-28).
Classical Interpretation: The classical view sees the ‘time of trouble’ as a resumption of the events of Antiochus IV described in 11: 36-45. But then again, this school of thought suggest that an ultimate antitype may also be found in the events of the Book of Revelation, affirming the principle of mutilevel prophetic fulfillment.
Michael the archangel is distinctly related to ‘Israel’ by Daniel as prince and guardian over the destinies of that nation (Dan. 10:21; 12:1). During Israel’s unprecedented ‘time of trouble’ (12:1; cf. Jermiah 30:7; Matt 24: 21), he will be active for her welfare when Satan is seeking to destroy her (Rev. 12:7 ff). This seems to be at the outset of the last part of the tribulation period (12: 7).
Regarding SDA Ellen G. White, you say:
‘…please note though, I need not be SDA to hold this position. Neither do I revere Sister White. However, she is clearly a prophetess of God for the last days and was and still is used by God to point the church of our time to present truth.”
JJ, would you please identify specifically, what areas of Ellen G. White’s vast writings qualify her as ‘a prophetess of God for the last days…to point the church of our time to present truth?”
Ready-Done // June 12, 2009 at 4:28 AM
I haven’t read the whole blog but one thing for sure only the people that with the ‘beast’ or have the mark of the beast going to have money, so money is the mark of the beast.
Those without money is the ones that going to be prosperous.
Ready-Done // June 12, 2009 at 4:32 AM
Zoe i like your thinking but why do you use the bible as a reference when speaking about GOD???
Zoe // June 12, 2009 at 10:14 AM
Ready-Done
Just like every manufacturer has a manual for its product, GE, Westinghouse, FORD, GM, etc, etc, on how how to care, maintain and look after it; our Creator, Almighty God, has lovingly also given to us, mankind, His manual, His Word to us, the Bible, to those who through the ages, have listened carefully to what Almighty God has said in His Word, have proved Him absolutely faithful to His promises; to those who disregard His instructions, have failed miserably, history is replete with all the evidence.
I, like multitudes of others, have also proved God’s Word, the Bible, to be true in every respect. He is absolutely faithful to His Word, as there IS NO other way!
Ready-Done // June 12, 2009 at 11:05 AM
The Bible was written by man, therefore should be used as a guide and not a ‘manual’, some try to justify their unwavering faith in this book by saying it was inspired by GOD.
My argument to this is asking a simple question:
Is not all life inspired by GOD?
Does God not speak to us each and every day, don’t get me wrong i read the bible and believe in it as well but there are somethings that just don’t add up.
I believe that to much enfisis is put into the bible by people that don’t even know the history surrounding the bible.
What needs to be done is that people should look to the law of nature, in other words, the law that all the rest of Gods ‘creations’ follow and we will see the light, not from laws written by man.
we have been fallowing these types of man made laws and, to no avail they are getting us no where.
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM
Good day Georgie Porgie,
Going on to your other post from May 28, 2009, you wrote…
QUOTE: “@ JJ
Re
RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #1
2 Pet 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Now listen to your nonsense ! You write
Here we see the Word of God declaring the day of the Lord will not only come unexpectedly, it will come with a GREAT NOISE! Does that sound like a secret? How is it possible to hide the fact that the earth, it’s elements, and all the “works” of man upon the earth are burned up on that day? Even if millions of Christians vanish into thin air as some preach, the convulsing and burning planet as well as the great noise all this is going to make will no doubt enlighten the wicked that something out of this world is happening, wouldn’t you think? How do you destroy the earth and all it’s cities without the wicked knowing it?
THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE
1-There are two phases to the second coming ;whether you agree or not the WORD SAYS SO .
2- The day of the Lord is executed over a period of at least 1007 years fro a right division of ALL the Scriptures involved according to the rules of exegesis and interpretation given by Peter himself in 2 Peter 1:20 where he writes Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
This means that when you want to correctly interpret a verse you need to examine what the other scriptures on the SAME issue say, or else you will be contradicting yourself! Many folk are unaware or disobey Peter’s advice in this verse, muddy up the waters, and then have people saying that the Bible contradicts itself.
3- Peter in this single verse [ as is common in much of prophecy ( e.g compare Isaiah 61:1-2a with Luke 4:18-19)] points to an event at the BEGINING of the day of the Lord and an event at the END of the day of the Lord.
The day of the Lord will COME or COMMENCE as a thief in the night. The Lord will come silently swiftly and silently and sieze away the saints just as a thief operates. The phrase “as a thief in the night “ is called in English and Hermeneutics A SIMILE!
The day of the Lord (which is a time period and not a day as can be seen by rightly dividing all the references to this concept in both OT & NT) will COME TO AND END
After Armageddon when it is predicted that “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
You then misinterpret 2 Pet 3:11-14
2 Pet 3:11-14 “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”
Verses 11 & 12 are an admonition to believers to live holy and godly lives in anticipation of the day of the Lord. If Peter did not articulate exactly what is meant from a consideration of all the scriptures on the matter, don’t think he did not know what he was saying.
This passage like the one above DOES NOT place the Lord’s arrival and the Earth’s destruction at the exact same time. You are deliberately dishonestly leaving out the concept of the rapture for which the proof texts are I Thess 4:13-18 & 1 Cor 15:51-57
How could the events described in these passages occur on the same “day” as the “day” of the hullabolu of the destruction or dissolution of the heavens with fervent heat? THINK MAN THINK!
If contemporary believers are not to look for an initial secret parousia followed by a great glorious epiphanea what does Titus 2:13 mean? If there is no dividing of events, no two phases, but ONE day and One event, why does one scripture says that the Lord will meet the saints in the air, and another says that he will come down to the Mount of Olives. Why does the scripture talk abut two different resurrections?”
You are very much embedded in a dream world of fanciful interpretation. Let’s go over what you’ve written here.
First, you say -
QUOTE: “1-There are two phases to the second coming ;whether you agree or not the WORD SAYS SO .”
Nowhere in the Word of God does it say that there are two phases to the Second coming. This is a division that you have eisegetically arrived at. The resurrection of the dead saints, the translation of the living saints (“rapture”), and the destruction of the wicked ALL occur when the Son of Man comes again. We meet the Lord in the air and are taken to the glorious mansions prepared for us in Heaven. These events mark the beginning of the 1000 years. There is no 7 year trib or 3.5 years or any such thing. Satan is bound for 1000 years on earth because there’s no one for him to tempt. At the end of the 1000 years, the wicked are resurrected (second resurrection) when Jesus and His saints and New Jerusalem descend on the Mount of Olives. Satan and the wicked surround the New city and are then destroyed by the Lord. The earth and heaven are made new.
But back to the issue at hand, Georgie Porgie, let’s get the evidence out now. You say the Word says there are 2 phases – WHERE please? Where are the Scripture verses to be found that support the idea of a “two-phased” Second Coming of Jesus Christ?
Let me ask you, was Christ’s first coming in TWO phases?
As Jesus Christ left this earth after His resurrection, as He was ascending up to heaven, His watching disciples were told: “…This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in LIKE MANNER AS ye have seen Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11. Did Jesus Christ have a TWO-phased departure from earth into heaven after His first coming? Did He go up part of the way, turn around and come back down, and then go back up all the way on a “SECOND” departure? NO! Jesus Christ simply ascended up (in ONE phase) into heaven! And the Bible says He is coming back in LIKE MANNER!
In one of my first posts, I quoted John 17:15 – “I pray NOT that Thou shouldest take them OUT OF the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
You said this only applies to those Jesus was speaking to at the beginning of the “church age”. But you forget the context – look at verse 20: Neither pray I for these [i.e., His disciples] ALONE, but for them ALSO which shall believe on Me through their word;”
The Lord Jesus Christ in verse 20 indicates that He is praying this prayer for ALL future believers as well as for His original disciples! Please note that it is the Son of God who is praying to His Father asking Him NOT to evacuate His followers OUT OF the world. And in verse 20 He adds that His prayer is ALSO for FUTURE believers! My friend, take note that the Son of God is praying AGAINST the pre-trib rapture!
Once again, and I said this at the beginning, YOU ARE WRONGLY ASSUMING that God MUST evacuate Christians in the end times OUT OF the world in order to keep them safe during the “Great Tribulation”. Your assumption “assumes” that God is NOT able to keep Christians safe here on planet Earth DURING the “Great Tribulation” period. Yet once again, the Bible is full of examples where God kept His children safe IN THE MIDST OF tribulation. I gave the example of the Hebrew captives in Egypt during the plagues.
Now I’ll cite some more:
a) Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in Daniel 3 – when Kind N. had these 3 men tossed into the fiery furnace, did God “rapture” them OUT OF the furnace in order to save them? NO! God preserved them IN THE MIDST OF the fiery furnace!
b) When Daniel in Daniel 6 was thrown in the lions’ den for disobeying the king’s command, did God “rapture” Daniel OFF OF planet Earth in order to save him? NO! God preserved Daniel IN THE MIDST OF the lions’ den!
c) What about Rahab in Joshua 6 who lied in order to protect the Israelite spies? When Israel then destroyed the city of Jericho where Rahab lived, did God “rapture” Rahab and her family OFF OF planet Earth in order to save them? NO! God preserved Rahab and her family IN THE MIDST OF the destruction of the city!
We could go on and on. Are these not Scriptural examples for us to consider? Can you not see the common theme here?
“When thou passest THROUGH the waters, I will be with thee; and THROUGH the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest THROUGH the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.” Isaiah 43:2
CHRISTIANS ARE NOT “RAPTURED” BEFORE THE TRIBULATION!
2Th 2:9 [Even Him], whose coming is AFTER the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Also read:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
I’m sure you agree that this “man of sin – the son of perdition” is the antichrist. This “day (of Christ)” in verse 3 is shown in verse 1 to be the “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”, and “our gathering together to Him”. The plain teaching of verse 3 is that NONE of those events take place until there first occurs both a “falling away” (apostasy) AND the revealing of “that man of sin – the son of perdition”! And so, since you subscribe to the theory that “the antichrist” is a FUTURE person who is to come on the scene in the very “end times”, then the above passage would clearly refute the idea that “the Church” is “raptured” prior to this man of sin person being revealed.
The clear meaning of verse 3 is that Christ’s return to gather up His saints cannot occur UNTIL AFTER the antichrist has been revealed. Tell me how you deal with this!
I refer you to the gospels once again. Look at Mark 13:24-27
Mar 13:24 But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And THEN shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven.
If the Christians who were “raptured” BEFORE the start of the “Great Tribulation” were ALREADY gathered to the Lord, did they get LOST, so that the Lord has to send His angels out to gather them a SECOND time, along with those who got saved after the rapture and had to go through the great tribulation”?
Again, if there is only ONE gathering together, and we Christians who are alive at Christ’s return CANNOT PRECEDE those who are raised in the resurrection of the just which occurs at the END of the great tribulation, it sure looks like the above Scripture verses are placing the “gathering together” of Christians AFTER the great tribulation!
Let me ask you a question. Why would believers be raptured off the planet so that they wouldn’t have to face the horrors of the great tribulation period, when so many other Christians have faced HORRIBLE persecution and tribulation throughout Church history? Why on earth would there be a special class of Christians at the end of the age that gets spared horrible persecution? What about those who get saved DURING the 7 year tribulation under much more stressful and demanding conditions and horrors? Again, HOW ON EARTH can you think that the raptured people are going to get a massive break from horrible persecution and evil when MILLIONS of Christians in other eras faced the most horrible persecution, and quite likely MILLIONS of Christians will be martyred by the antichrist in the future? I personally cannot figure out your logic and I’m continually fascinated with your fantastic twisting of the Word!
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:25 AM
QUOTE: “2- The day of the Lord is executed over a period of at least 1007 years fro a right division of ALL the Scriptures involved according to the rules of exegesis and interpretation given by Peter himself in 2 Peter 1:20 where he writes Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. This means that when you want to correctly interpret a verse you need to examine what the other scriptures on the SAME issue say, or else you will be contradicting yourself! Many folk are unaware or disobey Peter’s advice in this verse, muddy up the waters, and then have people saying that the Bible contradicts itself.”
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I’d also like to add that prophecy was written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Holy Spirit is the only one in the position to unlock the meaning of Scripture. You can have all the Bible scholars on the planet agree with you, but that does not mean it is correct. Did not God choose the simple to understand His great truths? Did not all the rulers and leaders at the time of Jesus’ first coming, completely mess up in their interpretation of Scripture?
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:26 AM
QUOTE: “3- Peter in this single verse [ as is common in much of prophecy ( e.g compare Isaiah 61:1-2a with Luke 4:18-19)] points to an event at the BEGINING of the day of the Lord and an event at the END of the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord will COME or COMMENCE as a thief in the night. The Lord will come silently swiftly and silently and sieze away the saints just as a thief operates. The phrase “as a thief in the night “ is called in English and Hermeneutics A SIMILE!”
Let’s focus on that expression “as a thief in the night.” You can only see one meaning to the phrase “as a thief in the night,” namely that Jesus comes “swifly” and “silently”, like a thief in the night. Unfortunately, this is the wrong meaning. The true meaning of “as a thief in the night” is that Jesus comes UNEXPECTEDLY. Do you ever KNOW when a thief comes? Of course not! Otherwise you’d be able to stop him. A thief comes when you least expect it!
I’ve already given proof that Jesus DOES NOT come silently at the so called “rapture.” He comes thunderously, with a shout AND with the trump, not silently. Remember what I wrote:
1 Thessalonians 4:15 “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.”
You say this verse has to do with the secret rapture, yet the very next verse couldn’t be more blunt!
1 Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
How do you shout in secret? Or are you now going to tell me that verse 15 and verse 16 are two separate events separated by 7 years or something? Because if you are, then why does Paul return to the “rapture” the very next verse:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Do the above verses really need any explanation? Aren’t they perfectly clear? The Holy Bible is saying that those Christians still alive (verse 15) at our Lord’s Second coming do NOT PRECEDE the “dead in Christ”, who are raised (resurrected) FIRST! Now if the secret, silent rapture theory is true, then how can all those graves bursting open be done in secret? Seriously! And it is only THEN, AFTER the dead in Christ are resurrected, that those Christians “still living” are caught up “to meet the Lord in the air”! I don’t see how you cannot see this plain meaning.
Here’s the proof that His coming as a thief means He comes UNEXPECTEDLY.
1 Thessalonians 5:2, “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”
BUT DON’T STOP READING HERE!!!!
1 Thessalonians 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
Put your glasses on Georgie Porgie, because the script is straightforward! “Sudden destruction” comes upon those that aren’t ready for Christ after He comes as a “thief in the night.” According to the 7 year trib theory, they would have seven years to get right with Christ. Yet the Bible says “sudden destruction” comes on them then.
BUT KEEP READING BECAUSE THE VERY NEXT VERSE SAYS:
1 Thessalonians 5:4 “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”
You use verse 2 to say Jesus comes as a thief in the night for the Christians. But this verse (verse 4) proves you’re not telling the truth. This verse is plain, is it not? It says clearly that Jesus does NOT come as a thief in the night to the true Christians who are not in darkness (but rather understand prophecy).
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:26 AM
QUOTE: “The day of the Lord (which is a time period and not a day as can be seen by rightly dividing all the references to this concept in both OT & NT) will COME TO AND END
After Armageddon when it is predicted that “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
You then misinterpret 2 Pet 3:11-14
2 Pet 3:11-14 “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”
Verses 11 & 12 are an admonition to believers to live holy and godly lives in anticipation of the day of the Lord. If Peter did not articulate exactly what is meant from a consideration of all the scriptures on the matter, don’t think he did not know what he was saying.
This passage like the one above DOES NOT place the Lord’s arrival and the Earth’s destruction at the exact same time.”
Do you need your eyes tested? Read again: “…Looking for and hasting unto the COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD, WHEREIN the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat…”
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:26 AM
QUOTE: “You are deliberately dishonestly leaving out the concept of the rapture for which the proof texts are I Thess 4:13-18 & 1 Cor 15:51-57”
I’m not. You are EXTRACTING these two texts and placing them in another time whereas I’m taking these two texts and placing them at the Second coming.
The order of events is plain. There is no secret phase followed by a glorious phase. It is ONE “PHASE”.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Both these passages say that at the last trump, the dead saints will rise with incorruptible bodies followed by the living saints being translated into incorruptible bodies to meet Jesus in the air at His coming, which is with a shout and a trump. Why do you insist that this is done silently in secret some 7 years before Jesus comes????
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:27 AM
QUOTE: “If contemporary believers are not to look for an initial secret parousia followed by a great glorious epiphanea what does Titus 2:13 mean?”
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
That blessed hope is the hope of eternal life, which is only in Christ. But when do we put on immortality?
1Thess 2:19 For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ AT HIS COMING?
Titus 2:13 is one event!
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:27 AM
QUOTE: “If there is no dividing of events, no two phases, but ONE day and One event, why does one scripture says that the Lord will meet the saints in the air, and another says that he will come down to the Mount of Olives.”
Because these ARE two events. The Lord will meet the saints in the air at His second coming, which begins the 1000 years. After that, He will come down to the Mount of Olives “all the saints with thee” Zech 14:5.
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:27 AM
QUOTE: “Why does the scripture talk abut two different resurrections.”
Because one is the resurrection of the just to everlasting life at Jesus’ coming and the other is the resurrection of the wicked to destruction at the end of the 1000 years.
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:28 AM
QUOTE: “Re RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #2
Luke 17:22 -27 “And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.”
Here you dishonestly merging two different illustrations used by the Lord.”
HOW SO?
QUOTE: “When the flood came unexpectedly, the folk in Noah’s day were eating and drinking and marrying. In other words they were going about the normal round of daily activities; as there is nothing at all wrong with either eating and drinking or marrying. Those who were in the ark were prepared for his coming because they had accepted God’s invitation to the ark (a type of picture of salvation by grace through faith in Christ) and shut up in the ark and looking for his coming. When Jesus comes at the rapture those who are saved will be distinguished only because they have God’s invitation of salvation by grace through faith in Christ and are watching and waiting for his return, because when Jesus comes again , they too will be, and are now yet eating and drinking and marrying – essentially they will be going about the normal round of daily activities ; as there is nothing at all wrong with either eating and drinking or marrying.”
You’ve perfectly summarized the passage EXCEPT YOU LEFT OUT THE LAST BIT! Read again – verse 27 says “…and the flood came, and DESTROYED THEM ALL.” Those who were not ready and had not accepted the invitation WERE DESTROYED. No 7 extra years of probation!
QUOTE: “Note that in none of the proof texts for the rapture there are no references to lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven, because all the fireworks will occur at Armagededon and in the judgement oif the earth that form part of the day of the Lord or the period or dispensation referred to as the second coming of Christ..”
Put two and two together!
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:28 AM
QUOTE: “RAPTURE DECEPTION – PROOF #3
Luke 17:28,29 “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ”
Your argument here though logical is unsound because it DOES not take into consideration the truths of all the other scriptures on the matter.”
It does as I’ve amply proven. It is only that your pre-assumptions do not allow you to accept such plain conclusions.
JJ // June 12, 2009 at 11:37 AM
Blessings Zoe,
I’ll now spend time answering your posts…
My apologies for the delay!
Zoe // June 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM
Ready-Done,
Yes, the Bible, God’s Word was written by man, BUT, it was Divinely Inspired by God.
“ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God ( pasa graphe theopneustos kai ophelimos) and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (II Tim. 3:16).
Theopneustos, means literally ‘God-breathed’ See also 2 Peter 1:20; and Romans 4:23; 15:4.
The fundamental reason that mankind is in such a mess, morally, ethically, and spiritually, is, because we have turned our backs on God, who is the ONLY One that has the answer for all of our problems.
This matter has already been dealt with on others threads, which I suggest you read, as I have no intention of going over it again, nor do I have the time.
You either accept or reject the Bible as Divinely Inspired by the Holy spirit, the choice is yours!
ROK // June 12, 2009 at 4:33 PM
@Zoe
“Yes, the Bible, God’s Word was written by man, BUT, it was Divinely Inspired by God.”
This is an assertion not even made by the men who wrote it, but one of convenience for those who would spread the lies and deceit. You have no proof and neither is there any evidence that the men who wrote the books of the Bible were divinely inspired by God.
Everything about Christianity is false including this false claim. How can sensible men base their most basic principles on assumptions? You have no foundation from the start, so don’t get smug saying, yes written by men “BUT” inspired by God; FOOLISHNESS! It was written by man and as Hopi told you already, it is mere patchwork coming from the minds of disconnected men who seek to DIVIDE this world.
ROK // June 12, 2009 at 4:35 PM
@Zoe
“You either accept or reject the Bible as Divinely Inspired by the Holy spirit, the choice is yours!”
You say this so glibly as if to say, well you choose, but you should tell people that it is woe betides them if they choose not; and the woes will not come from God nor Christ, but from Christians like you who can’t take the rejection. You have no sense of justice.
ROK // June 12, 2009 at 5:16 PM
This very ethereal discussion reminds me about the intellectual discussions and debates we used to have about Animal Farm which is not purely fiction but factually fiction.
You ever heard two Days of our Lives fans talking about the story? You would swear blind they were talking about something that happened in their lives… but all fiction.
What is the point of discussing a mortal character who men claim is the Creator but he is not? What is the point of discussing Jesus Christ the god and the god above him without understand who or what a god is?
It mean that you don’t have an understanding of the Rapture nor Armageddon. It means you don’t understand what is the end of the world and most of all it means you don’t understand the coming of your own god.
ROK // June 12, 2009 at 9:52 PM
@Zoe
If they get you to believe that this book was inspired by God; and if they get you to believe that the book is proof of itself; then they have imprisoned your mind and hence, they have imprisoned you.
I overheard a conversation between two bright young sparks. The were talking about a situation and in order for one to get other to see it differently, she was saying, “what if.. this and what if that”. You know what the response was from her peer? “Too many what ifs.”
I tell you the same thing. You have to swallow too much; believe blindly in too much and the shameful thing is, all the evidence is around you to help you see the lie. Talk about life being what you make it.
If you would come up from drinking in the fairy tale pool you would see the lions and cats poised; taking hold of you and draining you of the best days of your life.
ROK // June 12, 2009 at 9:57 PM
JJ
“Luke 17:28,29 “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ””
Sound like incendiary bombs to me or maybe a nuclear one. Maybe it was a volcano; lol!
Ready-Done // June 13, 2009 at 8:36 AM
Rok if we both agree the bible is not the way, then what do you think is the way???
ROK // June 13, 2009 at 2:29 PM
Hey Ready-Done
The biggest problem with Christians is that they have strayed from the true path. They no longer understand what a god is and they no longer understand the difference between God and the Creator.
Over the years they have idolised or even immortalised their god, because of a precept of what a God should be rather than the true fact of what a god is; equivalent to an oversized king or a mighty Lord; a conqueror and not a divine being that created this universe.
If you want to use the word created, it would be no more than how scientists created a clone or created a cow that gives a lot of milk and one that is prime for beef. Where is the true creation?
However, don’t think that since you say down with Christianity you must replace it with another dogma. We must replace it with the freedom of mind. Not being a slave to anything; not worshipping anything but realising that all the power of the Creator is in you.
There is nothing external that rules you; You are the complete master of yourself. If you choose to believe in something, (and notice that I said, “if you choose”) then that becomes your reality, but there is no retribution for disobedience save the punishment from the God and I mean physical punishment similar to what a slave master did to a slave to break him in.
Actually, it is based on the same principle as slavery: You do as the master says or you feel the consequences (if caught). It’s right through the Bible. You do as god says or else.
Now if you check your conscience, you would know that you have a sense of justice and if you compare your sense of justice with that of God of the Bible, then you would understand that God is not interested in justice and that is so because he has no dominion over justice. He seeks justice the same way we do, by laying down rules to follow and if you don’t follow you will be prosecuted.
This God does not care about the individual who followed his word to the letter, but on inflicting sufficient fear and mental dominance to keep mankind in check; enslaved.
This god has no dominion over life or death and that is why both the good and the bad, die. This god is mighty because of his technology; fire power and nothing more.
The quickest thing this god can do is threaten death and destruction and that is because of the fire power. If you remember your Bible, more than once he threatened to destroy the Hebrews and it was men themselves who rebuked him; Moses and Lot. They were concerned with Justice while God was not. Both Moses and Lot said that if they were people that followed the word of god, then they should not be destroyed; a sense of justice coming from man not from the god.
All I can tell you is that the Creator speaks to you all the time in the tone of your own voice. Listen and you will hear, it is the voice of your conscience and the goal is to advance mankind to mental perfection; or the highest mental ability. The Creator speaks through the Creation (us).
Now god stopped all this by convincing us that we are sinners, not perfect or rather imperfect. That we have to born again to be perfect.
Now that is an insult to my intelligence because there can be no more magnificent work than the body of man. That we are made up of small particles which are combined in such a way that we have consciousness, that we speak, that we live and that we survive and live off the dust of the earth which turns itself into fruits and vegetables in a form that we can digest and that these things deliver to the body, the nutrients, minerals, vitamins, etc. that it requires in order to live and function at the highest level of intelligence.
The Creator does not have to get up in all forums and boast about being the Creator. The Creator is the Creator whether you like it or not and does not breathe down our necks like god or the slave master would. We could only have been slaves because we were convinced and coerced into accepting slavery and because there was no alternative to life. It was either become a good slave or die. Same thing with the god of the bible and I would not be surprised if it was he who wrote the bible and planted it for man (to be more specific for christians).
Don’t replace it with anything, search for yourself. Listen to that inner voice; it has much wisdom and directs your everyday life. We have gone astray because we have not listened or to be more accurate, we are being seriously distracted from listening to that voice.
ROK // June 13, 2009 at 2:54 PM
Ready-Done
This is a topic virtually without end. You remember what god said when he was chasing Adam out of the garden? This is where the evidence of conspiracy begins. God said, let us remove the man from the garden lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever. Why would god not want that for man? Why was the tree of knowledge forbidden?
Well it was once forbidden to teach or educate a slave too because the longer you keep them in ignorance and not allow them to taste the pleasures of life, then you control them for the rest of their lives; and they will not want to escape or enjoy any of the pleasures/comforts of life as they will see it and leave it. Meanwhile, the white man and god, enjoy their lives to the fullest and in luxury; hidden from the eyes of their slaves.
A slave may enter the Massa’s house but not through the front door; the back door. The slave never gets to see the massa’s front house and the ones that do, know that they have to keep the field nigger from seeing and knowing the true luxury and to understand that luxury belongs to massa alone.
The slave dared not sit in massa’s chair or lie in his bed; that would be sacrilege. The slave dared not have a white woman or face getting his penis cut off; even to look at one meant death . Just understand that the same principle that the massa used to enslave black people was handed down from god himself. It’s all in the bible. “How to control men.”
JC // June 13, 2009 at 6:57 PM
ROK:
You will cause pure controversy with that comment LOL!
ROK // June 13, 2009 at 8:39 PM
JC
For which comment will I cause controversy?
It is well documented that the white race messed with the genitals of Black men. No controversy there except for those who would seek to deny it. They would castrate and cut off and stuff the wound with tar or salt and leave them to die a slow and painful death. Well documented!
JC // June 13, 2009 at 8:54 PM
Now ROK NB: I never once said that I disagreed with your comments!
Actually, you have caused me to look at this topic from a different perspective!
Keep going ROK but I still think you will be met with wrath and nasty comments; people dont like to deal with the truth we alllll know that …..
ROK // June 13, 2009 at 10:15 PM
JC
No, you never disagreed you merely stated it will be controversial… but you should not urge me on, that is wicked; LOL!
but I glad you spurring me on because I want to talk about the significance of the mark of the beast. It is simply a surveillance mechanism, not necessarily to catch any one in particular but to provide a warning that unauthorised personnel are where they should not be, or to monitor the activities of the people in a country; any country.
Why is this important? This is in preparation for what the man called the God of this earth has in store for the populations of the earth. The plan is to wipe them out, save a few. The biblical texts support this.
The destruction of the earth is about the destruction of man and the reason for the destruction is to reap; like how we cut down the cane fields to get the cane juice, molasses and sugar.
Those carrying the mark of the beast will be the easiest targets. Those who refuse the mark are those most likely to survive the onslaught.
Onslaught? I have no doubt that there will be some resistance to God when the time comes. You see, we don’t understand who is God. “No weapon” shall prevail against “Him”. Pick sense from nonsense.
Ready-Done // June 14, 2009 at 12:15 AM
Rok you is watch sg1? alex jones?
Your views though very correct will not be accepted by this society, if you were to put that in a different, less confrontational way, maybe, people would scrutinize it more.
You think mark of the beast is simply a surveillance mechanism, but why did the creator give us fingerprints? are they not a form of individual identification?
The fact that the mark of the beast has to do with money would mean it has to do with technology because the two go hand in hand. But it is humans that push technology and money on this earth? are we the beast?
You compared God making us, to a scientist cloning.and asserted god has no dominion over life or death and that is why both the good and the bad, die. also that this god is mighty because of his technology; fire power and nothing more.
agreed.
Then at some point our attempts at bettering technology for generation after generation has the effect of if man has lived forever since creation endlessly working at bettering technology soon enough our technology would rival his (he said it first, God said, ‘let us remove the man from the garden lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever:and be like us or something to that effect.’) if we are gods technology.
Maybe we will ultimately engineer our successors.
I never understood how a perfect God can make an imperfect being? the theory is flawed.
ROK // June 14, 2009 at 1:07 AM
Ready-Done
“Rok you is watch sg1? alex jones?”
Never heard of them. Just don’t watch TV. On that score, I have to apologise to my Flixter friends and explain that it makes no sense me matching wits on movies because i don’t watch them.
“why did the creator give us fingerprints?”
Footprints and all the Creator gave us, so why the need for something to give off a signal?
“But it is humans that push technology and money on this earth? are we the beast?”
Exactly, “beast” the creatures to be hunted and killed rather than “beast” the predator. You have your eye on the money. Take it off. It is the control. Money is a medium of control. See who is behind the controls and see who is being controlled.
“Then at some point our attempts at bettering technology for generation after generation has the effect of if man has lived forever”
Boy do you catch on fast. So, you should now understand the statement that “to achieve perfection” (Man) has to be born again… the problem with the christians is that they are too naive and they think that it is the person that has to be born again. That is a myth. It is we “mankind” and they are pulling against mankind; “Dividing us”. To divide us is to control us.
If the process of natural selection is not seriously interrupted, there will come a time when each man will born and live maybe 1000 years.
Now, according to the scholars, they have dug up several developed civilisations and have found that some catastrophe always happens to retard mankind every 5-10k years. We are now somewhere between 5-10k since the last one.
That evolution is therefore purposely interrupted and man has to start from scratch again every time. But the way that evolution works, God will one day be defeated by man.
“soon enough our technology would rival his (he said it first, God said, ‘let us remove the man from the garden lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever:and be like us or something to that effect.’) if we are gods technology.”
I don’t know if I could have put that any better. So you see that God is expecting conflict on his return? Check the language, “no weapon shall prevail against Him.”
“I never understood how a perfect God can make an imperfect being? the theory is flawed.”
That was one of the questions that stopped me from going to Sunday School… but I tell you this, we are all perfect beings, we just have to learn how to remain that way. Obviously God does not want us to learn this. Whatever we are doing is what serves his purpose.
Hopi // June 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM
@Georgie Porgie………Why does the Bible/God justify the oppression of Black People?
Genesis 9: 22-27. Ham who happened to be the father of the Black Race laughed at his father, Noah’s nakedness but Shem, the father of the Jew and Japheth, the father of the Gentiles/White Race covered their father’s nakedness and their eyes? And as a result Noah cursed Ham and told him that a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren, whereas he blessed the Jews and told them that Canaan shall be his servant…..hence they have moved into Canaan (Palestine) today and also blessed the descendants of Japheth.
And furthermore the Talmud also justifies the oppression of Blacks with its outright lies and hatred saying:
“That Ham (father of the Black Race) ‘unmanned’ Noah and Noah having realised what Ham had done said that he now could not have his 4th son and as a result Canaan had to be enslaved. And since Ham had disabled Noah from doing ugly things in the blackness of the night, his children shall be born black and ugly; and because Ham twisted his head around to see his nakedness, his grand-children’s hair should be twisted into into kinks and their eyes red; and because Ham’s lips jested at his misfortune his offsprings lips shall swell; and because Ham neglected his nakedness, he shall go naked and his male member shall be elongated.” ” And Canaan commanded his children to love theft and fornication, and to be banded together in hatred of their masters and never to tell the truth.”
Here is all the justification for the ill-treatment of Blacks and the god-given authority to steal their blessed lands.
Why should Black people live by the words written in this book, a book which blessed their enslavement? How can Black people find salvation thru these words?
ROK // June 14, 2009 at 5:33 PM
Hopi
“Why should Black people live by the words written in this book, a book which blessed their enslavement? How can Black people find salvation thru these words?”
Good question but they have done it using two principles:
1. They have convinced us that it is about us;
2. The basic principle of the Bible is divide and rule.
The thing for us to do is form an alliance of all black countries and start to build a parallel economy that is not dependent on western economic influences. Do you think we can do that? We certainly have the resources; and the currency must be strong.
JC // June 14, 2009 at 6:16 PM
You are deep ROK REAL DEEP!
Hopi // June 14, 2009 at 6:39 PM
@ROK…..You know I’m just waiting for my christian Bro. GP to give me an ‘enlightened’ response.
Yes, we can form an alliance and a very strong one at that because we have the capacities to facilitate such. The so-called civilization of the Europeans, could NEVER happen without the Blacks and the natural resources from our lands. Amerikkka is a perfect eg. ..it was built on blood, sweat and tears of the Blacks, so if our foreparents did that of course we can rebuild our own. There is nothing that we cannot accomplish once we put our minds to it. But we are constantly distracted with petty squabbles. And while we are rebuilding we will shut out everyone else because, WE DON’T NEED THEM.
Thanatos // June 14, 2009 at 6:40 PM
What exactly is ROK deep into?
Thanatos // June 14, 2009 at 6:46 PM
How do you plan to build this new civilization with the World Order elite and their plans so far advanced to bring in the one world Government; isn’t it a bit too late for this?
Georgie Porgie // June 14, 2009 at 6:57 PM
Thenatos
You of course realize that “this new civilization with the World Order elite and their advanced plans to bring in the one world Government” is a precusor to the temporary Government that will be ruled by AntiChrist as foretold in Revelation.
This Government will all be come a shambles as predicted in Revelation 17 & 18.
Ready-Done // June 14, 2009 at 7:07 PM
a parallel economy is the best way. but how do we start it? if we can?
Georgie Porgie // June 14, 2009 at 7:22 PM
Hopi
Re Why does the Bible/God justify the oppression of Black People?
I have not read ANY texts in the Bible that support the notion that the Bible/God justify the oppression of Black People.
History reveals that non black people have oppressed their kind in the past. Quite in keeping with the Biblical teaching that all have sinned and the tenet that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked!
I cannot comment on your quotation from the Talmud since I have not read the Talmud.
Re Genesis 9: 22-27. I did not know that Ham was the father of the Black Race when he laughed at his father’s nakedness , nor did I know that the peoples of the world were classified as BLACK JEW & GENTILES. Also your understanding of the Jews occupation of their land and the entire history concerning this issue seems a bit different from the biblical record.
Black people find salvation in the same way that ALL people find salvation:- by grace through faith in Christ as is outlined in several texts in the NT, which I KNOW THAT YOU HOPI ARE QUITE FAMILIAR WITH! LOL
It seems that I missed the texts in the Bible that justify “the ill-treatment of Blacks and the god-given authority to steal their blessed lands.” I am sure that you will assist by enumerating and quoting them for me.
Do kindly forgive me for causing you to wait for my enlightened response.
Hopi // June 14, 2009 at 8:23 PM
@GP…….Are you truly serious? You did not know that HAM was the father of the Black race according to the Bible? And are you also telling me that you are not aware that the land of Canaan…..the land flowing with milk and honey is Black people land which was then taken over by the Arabs which was later known as Palestine which the Jews are presently erasing from the World map?
And are you telling me that this world is not divided along racial/ethnic lines?
Then who is Ham and why has his generation been cursed to be servants to others?
No it is not too late!
Yes Blacks can re-build their own civilization, irregardless of the plans that this ‘New World Order Genre’ has put in place. Their power lie in our ignorance, apathy and acquiescence. They operate under the illusion of power. And one way we can start is by teaching our children the ‘truth’ i.e. that this paradigm in which we presently operate is false.
Thanatos // June 14, 2009 at 9:16 PM
Georgie Porgie, It is true that ‘…the one world Government’ is a precusor to the temporary Government that will be ruled by the Antichrist as foretold in revelation.”
It is so well advanced with the world economic crisis, North Korea, Iran, and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, etc, etc, it surely does seem that Bible is correct in its predictions.
Zoe // June 14, 2009 at 9:38 PM
I had not planned on getting involved with this meaningless discussion on race again, it is simply ‘colour-blind’ or more appropriately, ‘colour-bound’ by ignorance of the facts.
Reality is synonymous with truth, and truth is unyielding. One can choose to ignore it, scorn it, or even curse it, BUT, all to no avail; in the end, TRUTH impassively stands its ground in the face of the most overpowering emotional, verbal, and intellectually dishonest onslaughts.
Also, truth can be especially brutal to those who insist on worshipping at the Altar of Theory, and ideological barrenness, void of any substance whatsoever.
When one blatantly rejects, critical, objective, coherent, historic facts, all of which were foretold thousands of years ago, coming to past exactly as stated, and embraces a belief posture, that essentially has no foot in reality, then one is likely to believe ‘anything’ which amounts to believing in NOTHING, and therefore, their pronouncements, are utterly VOID, EMPTY, HOT AIR, akin to HOTEP!!!
ROK // June 14, 2009 at 9:59 PM
@GP
“I have not read ANY texts in the Bible that support the notion that the Bible/God justify the oppression of Black People.”
Well! Well! Well! That is either hypocrisy or ignorance. Which one?
georgie porgie // June 14, 2009 at 11:08 PM
Thanatos
You clearly seem to have a grasp of the subject Sir!
Zoe
You will notice that I do not get involved in discussions on race. Such discussions are usually pregnant with emotion and ignorance, especially when folk claim that the Word sanctions such.
I am more interested in goals such as those detailed in scriptures such as Ephesians 4:13 et secq
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Another goal is Philippians 3:8-12
Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ , the righteousness which is of God by faith; That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 12:09 AM
@ Zoe
“When one blatantly rejects, critical, objective, coherent, historic facts (none of which describes anything out of the bible), all of which were foretold thousands of years ago, coming to past exactly as stated, and embraces a belief posture (which is what Christianity is about), that essentially has no foot in reality (which is what the bible is), then one is likely to believe ‘anything’ which amounts to believing in NOTHING, and therefore, their pronouncements, are utterly VOID, EMPTY, HOT AIR…”
Thank you very much… you will soon get the reality.
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 12:48 AM
@Thanatos
“How do you plan to build this new civilization with the World Order elite and their plans so far advanced to bring in the one world Government; isn’t it a bit too late for this?”
They have you believing that they have the power in their hands. All I will say to you is “NEVER TOO LATE” unless you give up. Anytime the black race on this earth wake up to a stark reality, Western society gone; like how the gas run out when you cooking; one time!
If all the African States got together with all the black states all over the world, and decided that it was not going to allow Europe to have anymore resources, and focused on building an economy and a technology, I guarantee you that Europe and the USA would do one of two things, invade and completely take over Africa or crumble.
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 1:15 AM
Thanatos
“It is true that ‘…the one world Government’ is a precusor to the temporary Government that will be ruled by the Antichrist as foretold in revelation.””
I keep telling you that the Creator is the Anti-Christ. Put the right way, Christ is the Anti-Creator. What the Creator gave he is seeking to take away.
World Government is not achievable and while it may seem far advanced now, its very nature will cause a world wide rebellion and throw the western economy into deep crisis.
This is different to trying to dominate the world which is what they are doing now, but there are too many loose ends to the equation. The one thing the got right is the bible and the principle of division which is what keeps it holding on. One of these days the strings will pop.
For those of you who think the Bible prophesy is how it is going to be, think again. Developments in recent times has turned a spin on it… but one thing for sure, if the gods’ demands are excessive, there will be death and destruction; they will feel obligated to destroy us; especially the western institutions.
Ready-Done // June 15, 2009 at 5:25 AM
rOK you got to watch some of this SG1 is the best. but fictional (maybe)
http://s12.alluc.org/tv-shows.html?mode=catdetails&id=762&navpath=sel|S
Ready-Done // June 15, 2009 at 5:33 AM
a little alex jones
Ready-Done // June 15, 2009 at 5:34 AM
Ready-Done // June 15, 2009 at 5:40 AM
Great entertainment for some absolute truth for others.
but helps you to get other views.
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 8:20 AM
Ready-Done
OK, I am aware of all that information and the conspiracies too. There is no doubt that there will be mass murdering of people to dwindle the earth’s population in the next 3-5 years. It will be a slow and long process and of course the conspiracy started before HIV/AIDS but includes HIV/AIDS and swine flu, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
What is most disheartening is that people like Zoe and GP are unwittingly part of the plan and they don’t know it. They are the ones who will cause us to be sold out. They are the Judas Iscariots of this world. They don’t understand how dangerous they are to humanity.
They are the ones who will back the illuminati because the illuminati will seem and behave as if ordained by God. These foolish people feel that whatever god does, good or bad is good. As they say, you don’t question god as god knows best; bunch of BS.
The perfect example? Well they can’t see that the Israelis are committing genocide so they are backing the Israelis. You just have to check back this blog and you will see the vehement arguments they put up in favour of Israel; all about God and prophesies; and the prophecies must be fulfilled, Right?
These people are blood drinkers and flesh eaters and they don’t know but let me tell them something, what they are practicing is also the nature of the beast so look out for a reign of terror and when it happens these people will be smiling… and if they die in the process they will feel satisfied to say, “God wants me dead for a reason that only he knows” and they will gladly kick the bucket smiling in bliss. What ignorance!
One thing for sure, don’t care what they do, they can’t escape the Creator and the fittest will survive. Note how little has been able to survive. Everything happens for a reason and the experience that Cuba has with intelligence and warfare, defeating the illuminati many times over, should be a lesson and an inspiration to the true soldiers, that mighty men are conquerable. We need to get the bible out of Africa with the white man.
Obama is only a moment of glory and a mark of achievement for the black man. At least by now we should be thinking that we are equal to but better than the white man or the Jews who purport to rule this world. If Obama knows what is good for him, he would put down the bible. I believe that by now, he would have already met God. God is here on earth right now and has obviously found allies in world government. This is what will change the face of the prophesy (blueprint) because it was not anticipated by the Gods that mankind would have reached this level of technology and sufficiently powerful to pose a threat to them.
We are still like ants to the gods as powerful as we may be. They have serious technology. They can move water from planet to planet. They can manipulate the elements to make a planet habitable or barren and have been keeping all the planets barren except earth. It is a means of control and security within this solar system. It is like putting a fence around the earth to keep in the people (chattel).
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 8:28 AM
Ready-Done
Wow! Thanks for that alex jones piece on swine flu. There is no doubt that it is purpose work but Jones is really doing his homework to be able to unravel it.
Thanks to the Creator life is resilient.
Ready-Done // June 15, 2009 at 9:01 AM
alex jones has an opinion on every thing his web sit is infowars.com i think.
A youtube search would find many of his vids.
Hopi // June 15, 2009 at 9:21 AM
@Georgie Porgie…….I have concluded that you like many other Black ‘christians’ have chosen to envelop yourself in a vacuum. Do you ever sit down and examine the word in that Bible without the help of those whose foreparents played a major role in piecing it together for your delusion?
From the beginning of that Book the oppression of the Black race was sanctioned, yet you refuse to see it.
“Delusion that is perfectly complete, for those who die to find out deceit.”
AND
“Truth crushed to the earth, shall rise again,
The eternal years of God are hers;
But Error, wounded, writhes with pain.
And dies among his worshippers.”
Hotep!
JC // June 15, 2009 at 9:31 AM
What exactly is ROK deep into?
______________________
Why can’t I like what ROK is saying! At times I like what GP is saying. However, ROK causes one to look at things in a different way!
It causes one to think …… and not to go along with what one hears with out questioning it…..
You mean to tell me that GOD has given us a mind and we refuse to use it …… STUPSES!
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 9:41 AM
I really could not help sharing this one.
…………………………………………………..
Over one million people, worldwide, die from “regular flu” every year. In the USA – 36,000 die from ‘regular flu’ annually.
Swine flu is not a virulent flu. why then all the hoop-la? well, someone said to me “it’s because the authorities are fearful the virus will mutate.” OK that’s a point. But how come they are not equally fearful the ‘regular flu’ virus will mutate also????
I’m saying it’s about one of the Big Three that govern just about every decision: MONEY – POWER – SEX (not necessarily in that order.) In the present case, it’s about money. Maybe about power, too. The drug boys are racing to produce a ‘vaccine’s that’s going to ‘protect’ peeps against ‘catching the virus.’ And in the meantime stand by and watch the moola roll in…
The doleful general public never gets it. The sheep general public is happy to be lead down the garden path and follow along gleefully. 3 people in town get the swine flu virus, so everybody starts walking around with a face mask. Good sales ahoy – - will help get us out of the ‘recession’ no doubt. In the meantime millions have the HIV virus but only a handful will wear a condom…. figure it out.
…………………………………………
Asked what he thought of Western civilization, the nonviolent Mahatma Gandhi famously replied, “I think it would be a good idea.”
………………………………………………….
Wonder how many will get the gist of Gandhi’s response???
JC // June 15, 2009 at 9:42 AM
LOL ROK, True that! ha ha ha ha
People dont like when you speak the truth!
LOL
georgie porgie // June 15, 2009 at 11:01 AM
Hopi
Re I have concluded that you like many other Black ‘christians’ have chosen to envelop yourself in a vacuum.
You have concluded incorrectly! My opinions on race and the Bible and yours may not coincide, but I don’t live in a vacuum at all!
I am for instance currently engaged in the battle to starve to death a so called Medical school in North Mexico that wants to milk unwary students of their money, and offer them an education from a borrowed one door windowless firetrap classroom using a solitary teacher to present the two year Basic Sciences curriculum in one year teaching only 20 hours weekly.
Whereas I don’t attack you for your views or vision or your apparent wide reading on Egyptology and the issue of blackness, I wonder why you think it needful to attack my love for the Bible, and my ability to interpret by using accepted Hermeneutics?
If you know that the Bible sanctions the oppression of the Black race, why don’t you cite the relevant texts correctly divided in their contexts.
I love your poetry too. I love beautiful English, and writing and art. Did you know that I was an outstanding school boy photographer who won many prizes in competitions at the now defunct annual Exhibition?
Oh and I love to watch documentaries about animal life, and current world events which all tend to confirm my conviction in Bible prophesy.
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 11:33 AM
@GP
What a smooth slithering answer devoid of any indication that you care about anything besides your gods and only because you believe that you will escape wrath. What do you say about a person like that? Coward? Yellow? No balls? No spine?
Your only concern is for your own personal safety and not for humanity. I bet if the devil was offering you better terms there would be no god like the devil. You are for sale. Hence you are not yourself but all that you perceive your master would want you to be.
The problem is that you are in no comfort zone but don’t know it. Like the pig you are being led to the slaughter with food in your mouth. What a wonderful life! I’m sure you are saying it and chewing sumptuously too, all the way to the slaughter house.
When you enter the slaughter you will think it is a holy shrine but by the time you realise it is a slaughter house is when the knife is in full descent and only a milli-inch from your jugular vein and it will surely be too late for you. The whole lie will then unfold before you in the form of the misguided life you have lived.
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 12:12 PM
There are too many people who feel that they can’t live life without a crutch. No more than an alcoholic or addict fells they can do without their crutch.
You who can’t stand up and live as righteous men but allow some outdated philosophy to intercede with rules and unfair practices that create injustices, only because at the end of it you think you will benefit from it.
Whether or not you believe there is a god, you will live until you die; for me, no sooner, no later. What would you have done for the advancement of humanity after living a life soaking in dismal bliss. In that respect you are no different to the alcoholic or drug abuser; they live in the clouds too.
Zoe // June 15, 2009 at 1:37 PM
Apes, the ‘Bull’ god demon, is once again squeezing every bit of bilge, bunk, drival, rot, twaddle, and hogwash out of ‘pinhead’s’ crackpot brain; what a display on a public blog, littered with such fiddle-faddle, flapdoodle, flimflam, horsefeathers, and abstract, incoherent malarkey.
Such Ignorance in action, is certainly criminal!
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM
@Zoe
“Apes, the ‘Bull’ god demon, is once again squeezing every bit of bilge, bunk, drival, rot, twaddle, and hogwash out of ‘pinhead’s’ crackpot brain; what a display on a public blog, littered with such fiddle-faddle, flapdoodle, flimflam, horsefeathers, and abstract, incoherent malarkey. Such Ignorance in action, is certainly criminal!”
Well! Well! Well! A fitting description of the zeal of christians. Criminal is right and I do hope that before you die you will come to see the depth of the criminality against the human race that you christians have perpetrated.
But moreso is the fact that you would deem anybody that does not share your perspective a criminal. Certainly that is dangerous and wicked. Just as bad or worse than Hitler. YOU!
Zoe // June 15, 2009 at 2:52 PM
‘Pinhead’ You are going to look so pretty with a ‘Blue’ face and white beard, for that’s the colour you’ll turn in ’spewing’ out the utter bildge you are pucking up and out!
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 3:12 PM
@Zoe
“‘Pinhead’ You are going to look so pretty with a ‘Blue’ face and white beard, for that’s the colour you’ll turn in ’spewing’ out the utter bildge you are pucking up and out!”
It would take a lot more than you merely saying so for that to happen. I see you have reached your threshold; you can’t take it and you are beginning to garble. Control yourself man; be a human being first. What evil thoughts you have in your head? Is that the character of strength of Christians? I knew it all along. let me warn you: to think evil is to act evil and is to be evil. Right now, you are the devil self.
georgie porgie // June 15, 2009 at 3:24 PM
Zoe
One of the strengths of a great test batsman is knowing that you DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY AT EVER BALL!
The great Sunil Gavaskar said THE ART OF BATSMANSHIP IS KNOWING WHICH BALLS NOT TO PLAY AT!
Focus man! Stick to what you are good at; continue to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH! Continue to share SOUND DOCTRINE THAT CAN NOT BE REFUTED.
BUT FOOLISH AND UNLEARNED QUESTIONS AVOID, KNOWING THAT THEY DO GENDER STRIFES.
REMEMBER THAT YOUR ADVERSARY THE DEVIL, AS A ROARING LION, WALKETH ABOUT SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR, WHOM RESIST STEDFAST IN THE FAITH
Recognize him and avoid him! Do like Michael the archangel as recorded in Jude verse 9.
Hopi // June 15, 2009 at 3:28 PM
@GP………I did not attack your love of your bible nor your study of hermeunetics. I’m just under the impression that you are blatantly lying when you say that you did not know that Ham was the father of the Black race. From the time I was a kid I’ve always heard that we are the descendants of Ham.Therein lies that vacuum.
Whereas you see world events as conviction of bible prophecy, I simple see them as long-term planning by the authors of that same bible, now being played out; simply because ‘christians’ and many others have been hoodwinked into believing that it is prophecy.
If you care to, briefly explain how these europeans known as jews got to kill Palestinians and occupy their land and where exactly in the Bible did they incur that right.
If I may ask in what capacity are you operating to be engaged in a battle to starve to death some medical school in N.Mexico?
@ROK………I wish you good luck with that saved & sanctified christian zealot who constantly displays a great deal of ‘humility.’ Remember that the meek will inherit the earth, so you and I will get to celebrate very soon his departure. He’ll be caught up in that 144k.
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 5:08 PM
Hopi
I did not say that I did not know that Ham was the father of the Black race. And you know that!
RE Whereas you see world events as conviction of bible prophecy, I simple see them as long-term planning by the authors of that same bible, now being played out; simply because ‘christians’ and many others have been hoodwinked into believing that it is prophecy.
How could the authors control what would or has happened? Its not as if they were writing an ordinary novel.
I did not know that the Jews were originally Europeans (or Americans or any other nationality)
Re If you care to, briefly explain how these europeans known as jews got to kill Palestinians and occupy their land and where exactly in the Bible did they incur that right.
The land you say that belongs to the Palestinians was first promised to the Jews in Genesis 15: 13-16; 18-21…..but I am sure your parents told you that when they taught you that Ham was the father of the Black race. I am sure that you know too that even up to this day there are black Jews in Ethiopia!
Re If I may ask in what capacity are you operating to be engaged in a battle to starve to death some medical school in N.Mexico?
THE POWER OF THE KEYBOARD AND THE INTERNET ARE VERY STRONG MY DEAR! AND MOST EFFECTIVE! This is a case where some white Texans thought that they could hoodwink a big belly black boy from Bim! The pen is indeed sharper than the sword!
You seem to be confused with the composition of the 144k. and when they will be caught up! LOL
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 5:23 PM
David
One of the things that will undermine the world order is the internet. You cannot have a plan as sinister as that and allow people to communicate freely. It is simply not politically astute; you have to be able to separate and divide people in order to rule them.
It is amazing that up to this point we have had the free use of the internet but we can look for this to become more sophisticated and less free. Let me give an example.
When ooVoo first came out you could have up to five people in your video conferencing and you could call any number in the USA free of cost and they were giving you a certain amout of minutes every month which you could carry over. It had become very popular.
One day we all got a message to download a new version of ooVoo only to find that the new version could only hold three callers and you no longer had minutes, you now have to pay for calls to landlines.
The question is, how long will we enjoy the freedom of the internet and should we just sit and wait for it to be taken away or should we put our bright technology engineers to work to set up a Caribbean Internet which can run independent of the rest of the world?
I remember that before the internet, we had something call the Barbados Bulletin Board Service which operated similar to the internet.
But look at the conspiracy. In order to stop these little efforts from developing and evolving into something big, with each country having its own internal network which we could then link up, the USA conveniently rolls out the internet, making these national Bulletin Boards efforts pointless.
What they really did was made us dependent on them for communications and now, some 15 years later, our little efforts have dried up; the technology has changed and anytime the US pulls the plug on the internet we will be scrambling. Access to knowledge and information as we know it now would be dried up and we would have to start from scratch.
But there is a deeper lessons: Beware of Trojans bearing gifts.
David // June 15, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Interesting. view ROK.
It use to be follow who owns the debt now you are adding information.
JC // June 15, 2009 at 5:59 PM
It is getting interesting by the minute you see why I think ROK is deep! LOL
Christopher Halsall // June 15, 2009 at 6:17 PM
@ROK: “One of the things that will undermine the world order is the internet.
I respectfully disagree.
I would argue that the Internet is most likely to bring forward the optimal “World Order”. (No matter that certain religions have a serious problem with a global posture…)
@ROK: “It is amazing that up to this point we have had the free use of the internet but we can look for this to become more sophisticated and less free.
Yes, it is amazing that we’ve had access to this service. But it hasn’t been free. We’ve all paid to access it. And, separately, paid to publish upon it.
@ROK: “Let me give an example. One day we all got a message to download a new version of ooVoo only to find that the new version could only hold three callers and you no longer had minutes, you now have to pay for calls to landlines.
So you’re bitching and wining about a particular provider trying to make money over the Internet.
Boo hoo… Why don’t you rally a protest in the streets?
Why don’t you consider all the other Internet services available…
@ROK… I respect you. We’ve worked together…
But I disagree with you on this particular point…
The Internet is the most incredible invention in modern time… It lets us explore, examine, argue, debate…
And it is not dependant upon the USofA. If the USofA decided to drop our traffic, we would simply route around them.
IMHO, the USofA will not drop our traffic… IMHO, they gain too much value watching what we say and view….
Namaste ROK…
Hopi // June 15, 2009 at 6:55 PM
@Georgie P……..
June@ 14 7:22 pm…”I did not know that Ham was the father of the Black Race”
June 15 @ 5:08 pm…”I did not say that I did not know that Ham was the father of the Black race. And you know that!”
Come on GP. You got a choice remove the plaque from the brain, take some extra vitamin E or infuse yaself with some memantine. Just a friend trying to help out.
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 7:01 PM
LOL
I can assure you that there is a good reason for the discrepancy. Probably doing too many things at once.
What is memantine?
Hopi // June 15, 2009 at 7:05 PM
BTW, the land of Palestine was originally Canaan…the land of Black overflowing with milk and honey. In God’s promise to the ‘jews’ did he tell them that he would give them permission to kill and decimate the inhabitants?
You see my parents could not have taught me that because they were not ‘jew-worshippers.’
I am confused with this 144k and they being caught up? Are you saying that your christian brother on this thread is not righteous enough to be caught up in that 144k?
Hopi // June 15, 2009 at 7:08 PM
@GP….. One of those ‘good’ drugs that will help to stave off alzheimers.
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 7:15 PM
Well Chris, I got you this time.
“The Internet is the most incredible invention in modern time… It lets us explore, examine, argue, debate…”
That is why I think it is amazing that we have it at all. Any world order cannot have such free exchange of ideas; the only ideas must be that of the world order. The question of whether or not we paid is immaterial.
“I would argue that the Internet is most likely to bring forward the optimal “World Order”.”
Who owns the world order is not up for grabs and in whose interest is “optimal”?
“So you’re bitching and wining about a particular provider trying to make money over the Internet.”
That was intended to be an example of how your world could change in a flash and how you are duped into the change.
“And it is not dependent upon the USofA. If the USofA decided to drop our traffic, we would simply route around them. IMHO, the USofA will not drop our traffic… IMHO, they gain too much value watching what we say and view…”
Again you misinterpret, it is not a matter of dropping traffic but controlling the communications industry/technology as a whole.
Governance will undermine the world order because governance will take into consideration the issues of the people and if the issues of the people are able to be articulated and gain circulation it will make it difficult for a world order to be implemented.
Bear in mind that a world order is not about you and I. Left to us the USA would not have been in Iraq nor Afghanistan and those people who lost their lives in 911 may still be alive today if it was about governance.
The Israelis would not be so openly committing genocide against the Palestinians. Governance demands transparency… and you and I know that the Government of USA will never tell the world that it invaded Iraq for its oil. Or that it led assassination attempts against Castro or Chavez to destabilise those countries or how they install puppet governments that completely crushed their own people. Haiti for example.
None of this could have happened with governance and therefore I want you to understand, yes, feedback is invaluable to test the waters; especially to see how gullible people are… but once you establish gullibility you don’t need to continue establishing it over and over. When the announcement is achieved the internet will be taken away to prevent public opinion from taking root.
You see, if you let public opinion take root, there will be total upheaval in the world. Riots will break out and spread quickly and there will be total social unrest and undermining of governments. They can’t afford for that to happen. They have to slow down the ability to communicate and limit access to certain information, plus be able to monitor everything sent across the internet by those allowed.
Any strategist will tell you that the only way to maintain control is to stop people from talking to one another, especially across large divides.
Take this blog for example, I am sure that politicians are more on their Ps and Qs as a result of it, because we don’t have to depend on the news “capsules” pushed down our throats. So the thing is that anytime the world powers decide to put down clamps on the internet our politicians will gladly follow because it will make life easier for them.
If you doubt me, ask David what Mia Mottley think of the blogs and why???
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 7:19 PM
Hopi,
I told you already that GP has lost his credibility not his memory. How can a man make such totally opposite statements and continue to parade as an expert? How can anything he says worth even a pinch of salt?
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 7:36 PM
Hopi
the land of Palestine was originally Canaan…THAT’S CORRECT
In God’s promise to the ‘jews’ did he tell them that he would give them permission to kill and decimate the inhabitants? READ IT FOR YOURSELF IN JOSHUA & JUDGES
You see my parents could not have taught me that because they were not ‘jew-worshippers.’ NOR WERE MINE WE JUST WENT OFF TO THE GOOD OLD ANGLICAN CHURCH UNTIL I QUIT!
Re I am confused with this 144k and they being caught up? Are you saying that your christian brother on this thread is not righteous enough to be caught up in that 144k?
The 144k are said to be Jews. I believe that my Christian brother on this thread is not a Jew. LOL !
In responding to you on Ham Iwas cutting and pasting your prose and forgot to add a sentence or too to my thoughts as planned. I cant remember what I had in mind then or what distracted me, but I rembered that I had a rebuttal that did not say that I did not know that Ham was the father of blacks.
I am here for fun and I enjoy exchanging with you and NS MME and BT and Pat on these issues ….even though you do not necessarily agree with me ever! LOL
Best wishes.
ROK // June 15, 2009 at 7:43 PM
@GP
” In responding to you on Ham I was cutting and pasting your prose and forgot to add a sentence or too to my thoughts as planned. I cant remember what I had in mind then or what distracted me, but I rembered that I had a rebuttal that did not say that I did not know that Ham was the father of blacks. I am here for fun and I enjoy exchanging with you and NS MME and BT and Pat on these issues ….even though you do not necessarily agree with me ever! LOL ”
Downright deceitful! That is what that is all about. A very poor explanation.
Hopi // June 15, 2009 at 7:53 PM
@GP……Not only are you cutting and pasting you are also cutting and running. Anyhow I wish you the best as well esp. with that memory.
Hotep!
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 8:42 PM
OK Hopi I am cutting and running LOL
I have not heard that use of the verb to “cut” for a very long time.
“cutting and running” is indeed a very good pun! I bow to you in appreciation!
Now what is this Hotep you always quoting?
Christopher Halsall // June 15, 2009 at 8:48 PM
@ROK: “Well Chris, I got you this time.
Actually, I disagree…
But, then, that’s one of the reasons I love working with you…. (Smile.)
Thanatos // June 15, 2009 at 9:14 PM
GP, I don’t agree with you that Zoe was/is playing at every ball, as he sticks mostly to what he obviously knows and understands, the Biblical Christian world view, but, some from time to time, who are not well versed on such matters, do write a lot of ’shite’ and need to be told so plainly, and this Zoe has a right to tell them so.
No matter what Zoe says, the AntiChrist, anti-Biblical haters of Scripture, cannot deal with the historic facts, and will attack him one way or the other.
Did not Jesus call some people ‘a generation of Vipers’ or something of the kind?
Hopi // June 15, 2009 at 9:42 PM
@GP……..’Hotep’ in the language of the Ancient Kemetians means Peace! That’s the language of your Black Forefathers.
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 9:46 PM
Thanatos
GP, I don’t agree with you that Zoe was/is playing at every ball, as he sticks mostly to what he obviously knows and understands, the Biblical Christian world view, but, some from time to time, who are not well versed on such matters, do write a lot of ’shite’ and need to be told so plainly, and this Zoe has a right to tell them so.
I AGREE WITH YOU IN A WAY
SOME GUYS HERE DO WRITE A LOAD OF BS AND IT IS HARD TO SWALLOW
I JUST DONT WANT ZOE TO GET DOWN TO THIER LEVEL AND RESPOND
IT IS NOT WORTH IT
I BELIEVE HE SHOULD LET THOSE GUYS TALK TO THEMSELVES. YOU WILL NOTE THAT I IGNORE THEM!
No matter what Zoe says, the AntiChrist, anti-Biblical haters of Scripture, cannot deal with the historic facts, and will attack him one way or the other.
I AGREE WITH YOU THERE TOO BELIEVE ME. AND I KNOW THAT WHATEVER HE SAYS OR WHAT EVER I SAY THEY WILL SCOFF BUT I TRY NOT TO GIVE THEM CAUSE THATS ALL
Did not Jesus call some people ‘a generation of Vipers’ or something of the kind?
HE SURE DID
YOU AND I KNOW THAT
BUT MOST NON BIBLE STUDENTS DONT OR PRETEND THAT THEY DONT
I JUST DONT WANT THEM TO BE AT HIS THROAT ALL THE TIME
But I dont think that he is absolutely wrong to statehis case. I just wish that he would ignore them as I do ! BUt I can not realistically expect him to be like me or act like me.
I dont respond and they still try to taunt me! And they can continiue to do so till the COWS COME HOME. but I wont be getting down there with them. 1
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 10:21 PM
In our discussion of the scriptures that pertain to the rise of the Antichrist we turn now, to an exegesis of Daniel 9
Exegesis of Daniel 9 DANIEL’S VISION OF THE 70 SEVENS part 1
Daniel chapter 9 records a third vision that Daniel received (cf. chs. 7, 8). Though the vision itself occupies only a small part of the chapter (vv. 24-27), the verses that precede it prepare for it and connect with it. This chapter is thought by many to be the high point of the book of Daniel, because it must be properly understood if the great prophetic discourse of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24—25, Mark 13, Luke 21 and the greater portion of the book of Revelation will be understood .
Daniel chapter 9 is unique in Scripture in that it actually sets up a sort of time schedule of coming events. The nearest approach to it is Jeremiah’s prophecy of seventy years
It is noteworthy also, that although previously Gentile history and prophecy recorded in Daniel was related to the people of Israel, the ninth chapter specifically takes up prophecy as it applies to the chosen people themselves.
Daniel 9:1-3
Apparently, Daniel had somehow obtained a copy of Jeremiah’s prediction of the length of Jerusalem’s desolation as a result of the Babylonian captivity (cf. Jer. 36:23, 28). Jeremiah had revealed that the city would lie in ruins for 70 years and then God would destroy Babylonia (Jer. 25:11-12; 29:10-14; cf. 2 Chron. 36:21).
Daniel received this vision about 67 years after Nebuchadnezzar had deported the first group of exiles, including himself, in 605 B.C.
Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in 586 B.C. The specific period of desolation in verse 2 probably refers to 586-515 B.C. since “the desolations of Jerusalem” are in view.
Notice that Daniel interpreted literally the 70 years that Jeremiah predicted as 70 years. As he saw the end of this period approaching, he prayed for the restoration of his people.
Daniel’s understanding of a literal fulfillment of numbers in prophecy helps us know how we should understand at least some of them. Notice also that he regarded Jeremiah’s prophecy as “the word of the LORD.”
Although not mentioned in the Book of Daniel, Daniel may also have been aware of Isaiah’s prophecy that God would raise up a king named Cyrus who would order the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple (Isa. 44:28; cf. 45:1-2, 4, 13).
Jeremiah had revealed that God would restore His people to their land when they prayed to Him wholeheartedly (Jer. 29:12-14). This revelation prompted Daniel to pray the prayer that follows (vv. 3-19). Daniel’s prayer fulfills what Solomon anticipated in his prayer at the dedication of the temple (cf. 1 Kings 8:33-36).
Notice that Daniel did not regard prayer as unnecessary in view of the certainty of the fulfillment of Jeremiah’s prophecy.
He viewed prayer properly as one means that God uses to accomplish His will in human history (cf. 6:10). Through prayer we become partners with God in bringing His will to fruition in the world. Daniel’s behavior, as well as his words, expressed the genuineness of his contrition.
These verses show Daniel as a diligent student of Scripture who built his prayer life on the Word of God, and also teach that biblical prophecy should bring us to our knees, as it did Daniel. Daniel’s attitude is clearly most contrary to BU Bible scoffers.
While God honors the briefest of prayers, as the experience of Nehemiah 2:4 indicates, effective prayer requires faith in the Word of God, and a proper attitude of mind and heart, privacy, and unhurried confession and petition. Daniel’s humility, reverence, and earnestness are the hallmarks of effective prayer.
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 10:23 PM
Exegesis of Daniel 9 DANIEL’S VISION OF THE 70 SEVENS part 2
Daniel’s prayer of confession 9:4-14
9:4 Daniel’s prayer (vv. 4-19) began with confession. This is only the second time in the book that Daniel used the name Yahweh for God (cf. vv. 2, 8, 10, 13, 14, 20). He also addressed God as Adonai (master) in verses 4 and 7.
It is natural that he would do this since this chapter contains the most intimate contact that Daniel enjoyed with His God, namely, through Bible study and prayer.
9:5-6 Daniel stressed God’s transcendence and His loyal love (Heb. hesed) to Israel in his salutation (v. 4). He then proceeded to point out that, in contrast to Yahweh’s faithfulness to Israel, Israel had been unfaithful to Him. The prophet identified with his people.
Personally he had been faithful to God. Yet since he was an Israelite he partook of the blessings and curses that God sent Israel for her obedience and disobedience (cf. Deut. 28:48-57, 64-68). What made Daniel one of God’s greatest saints was not his sinlessness but his sensitivity to the true depth of his sin.
He listed several of Israel’s sins first: positive transgressions (v. 5) and then negative omissions (v. 6). Note the progression in the description of sin in verse 5. Evidently Daniel wanted to confess all the nation’s sins of every kind to their full extent. Especially sinful was the fact that all classes within Israel had disregarded God’s words to them through His prophets (cf. 2 Chron. 30:10). To disregard God’s Word is “the beginning
of all moral disorders.”
9:7-11a Daniel proceeded to contrast the righteousness that belongs to God with the guilt and shame that belonged to His people because they had sinned against Him (vv. 7-8). He also compared God’s forgiveness and compassion with Israel’s rebellion (v. 9). Verses 10 and 11a focus again on Israel’s great sin of disregarding God’s words to her. All of this resulted in Israel’s humiliation among the Gentile nations.
9:11b-14 God had poured out curses on His people because of these sins (v. 11b). He had done what He had promised He would do if Israel departed from Him (v. 12; cf. Deut. 28:15-68). Moses had warned the Israelites about departing from God, yet His people had not sought His favor by repenting (v. 13). Therefore calamity had descended on them since Yahweh is righteous in all His deeds. In contrast, Israel had disobeyed His voice (v. 14).
In this section of his prayer, the prophet glorified God for dealing justly with His people who, Daniel acknowledged, deserved all the punishment they had received.
It is noteworthy that Nehemiah’s prayer in Nehemiah chapter 1 follows a similar pattern!
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 10:24 PM
Exegesis of Daniel 9 DANIEL’S VISION OF THE 70 SEVENS part 3
Daniel’s petition for restoration 9:15-19
Having laid a foundation for appeal in his confession (vv. 4-14), Daniel now proceeded to petition God to restore His people to the Promised Land.
9:15 He first referred to the Exodus as a former demonstration of God’s power and faithfulness for His people when they found themselves in a situation similar to that of the Babylonian exiles.
Again Daniel stressed God’s reputation and Israel’s unworthiness clarifying the basis for his appeal (cf.vv. 4-5).
“The deliverance of the people of Israel from Egypt is, in many respects, the Old Testament standard illustration of the power of God and His ability to deliver His people.
By contrast in the New Testament, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is God’s standard of power (Eph 1:19-20). In the future millennial reign of Christ, the standard of power will be the regathering of Israel and their restoration to the land (Jer 16:14-15).”
9:16-17 Now the prophet appealed to God as Adonai, stressing His sovereignty over His people, and as Elohim, the strong One. As God had righteously brought discipline on Israel for her past sins, Daniel asked Him righteously to bring restoration since He had promised it too. The answer would primarily glorify God and secondarily bless His people.
9:18-19 Daniel appealed repeatedly for God to hear and answer his prayer, not because the Israelites deserved it but because God is compassionate (cf.Exod. 32:12-14).
It is interesting that Daniel did not tell God what to do. Instead he asked God to hear, to see, and to act. This is a humble approach that does not dictate to God but leaves the answering up to Him. This magnificent prayer builds to an emotional, positive, logical climax in its final verse.
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 10:25 PM
Exegesis of Daniel 9 DANIEL’S VISION OF THE 70 SEVENS part 4
God’s response to Daniel’s prayer 9:20-23
God began responding to Daniel’s prayer as soon as he began praying (cf. v. 19; Luke 11:10-13). Clearly the prayer recorded in the preceding verses was only a summary of what the prophet prayed since he prayed long and hard (v. 21).
9:20-21 Daniel again saw Gabriel, whom he had met previously (8:16). The description “the man Gabriel” is a play on words and probably means “the servant, the strong one of the strong God.” The Hebrew word ish (man) often appears as a description of a servant.
“Note that the term ha’is (‘the man’) does not signify ‘man’ in contradistinction to angels or other spiritual powers residing in heaven; that would have been ‘adam or ‘enos in
Hebrew. It rather indicates that this mighty archangel had appeared in a humanlike form and had spoken to Daniel intelligibly as one man speaks to another [cf. Luke 24:4;
Acts 1:10].
Evidently Daniel had become weary because of his praying and fasting. The time of the evening offering was 3:00 p.m.
The Jews were not able to offer the regular morning and evening sacrifices after the Babylonians destroyed their temple. However pious Jews such as Daniel still prayed at these customary times (cf. 6:10).
9:22-23 Daniel’s concern for God’s reputation (vv. 4-14) doubtless made him special to God (v. 23). The vision that God had sent Gabriel to convey constituted an answer to Daniel’s prayer. It revealed what would happen to the Jews.
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 10:28 PM
Exegesis of Daniel 9 DANIEL’S VISION OF THE 70 SEVENS part 5
The revelation of Israel’s future in 70 sevens 9:24-27
“In the concluding four verses of Daniel 9, one of the most important prophecies of the Old Testament is contained.
The prophecy as a whole is presented in verse 24. The first sixty-nine sevens is described in verse 25.The events between the sixty-ninth seventh and the seventieth seventh are detailed in verse 26. The final period of the seventieth seventh is described in verse 27.”
“Daniel’s prophecy of the seventy weeks (vv. 24-27) provides the chronological frame for Messianic prediction from Daniel to the establishment of the kingdom on earth and also a key to its interpretation.” “Probably no single prophetic utterance is more crucial in the fields of Biblical Interpretation, Apologetics, and Eschatology.”
9:24 The Hebrew word translated “weeks” (shabu’im) literally means “sevens.” It can refer to seven days (Gen. 29:27-28) or seven years (Lev. 25:3-5). Most scholars believe that this word here represents seven years. Daniel had been thinking of God’s program for Israel in terms of years. He had read Jeremiah’s prophecy that the exile would last 70 years (vv. 1-2). It would have been normal then for him to interpret these sevens as years.
Furthermore, the fulfillment of the first sixty-nine years shows that these sevens are indeed years. In addition, the last half of the seventieth seven is described elsewhere as consisting of three and one-half years, or 42 months, or 1260 days.
Seventy seven-year periods totals 490 years. As Jerusalem was suffering under the hand of Gentiles for 70 years (v. 2), so the Jews and Jerusalem would suffer under the hand of Gentiles for 490 years.
“Your people” and “your holy city” are obvious references to the Jews and Jerusalem (cf. vv. 7, 11, 20). They have nothing to do with the church, which is a distinct entity from Israel (cf. 1 Cor. 10:32). However as the following verses
clarify, these will not be uninterrupted years.
God had decreed these years. He had ordained them, and they are as certain to come as anything else that God has foreordained. This verse states that the purpose for God decreeing this period is six-fold.
First, it will end rebellion against Him.
Second, it will end human failure to obey God.
Third, it will provide time for atonement that will cover human wickedness.
Fourth, it will inaugurate a new society in which righteousness prevails.
Fifth, it will bring in the fulfillment of the vision that God has for the earth.
Sixth, it will result in the anointing of the most holy, probably a reference to a new and more glorious temple.
God has already achieved some of these goals, specifically the third one and to some extent the first two. However other goals have not yet seen fulfillment. Therefore it is reasonable to look for a future fulfillment from our perspective in history.392
“By the time these 490 years run their course, God will have completed six things for Israel. The first three have to do with sin, and the second three with the kingdom. The basis for the first three was provided in the work of Christ on the cross, but all six will be realized by Israel at the Second Advent of Christ.”
“This prophecy, it must be noted, concerns three deliverances. Daniel was greatly burdened about an early deliverance of the Jews from Babylon to return to Jerusalem.
God was also interested in their deliverance from bondage to sin (at Christ’s first advent) and in the final deliverance of the Jews from oppression (at Christ’s second coming) . .
One commenter suggests that this verse “ is a Divine revelation of the fact that a definite period of time has been decreed for the accomplishment of all that which is necessary for the true restoration of God’s people from bondage.”
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 10:30 PM
Exegesis of Daniel 9 DANIEL’S VISION OF THE 70 SEVENS part 6
9:25 There are four decrees concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem that Scripture records.
The first was Cyrus’ decree to rebuild the temple in 538 B.C. (2 Chron. 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-4; 6:2-5).
The second was Darius I’s decree in 512 B.C. confirming Cyrus’ earlier one (Ezra 6:1, 6-12).
The third was Artaxerxes’ decree in 457 B.C. (Ezra 7:11-26).
The fourth was Artaxerxes’ decree authorizing Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem in 444 B.C. (Neh. 2:1-8).
The first two authorized the rebuilding of the temple, and the third provided for animal sacrifices in the temple.
Only the fourth one gave the Jews permission to rebuild Jerusalem, and it seems to be the one in view here. The Jews encountered opposition as they sought to rebuild and refortify their ancient capital, as the Book of Nehemiah records. The date 444 B.C. then probably marks the beginning of this 490-year period.
Seven sevens plus sixty-two sevens equals 483 years. Gabriel predicted that after 483 years Messiah would be cut off.
Detailed chronological studies have been done that show that Jesus Christ’s death occurred then. One scholar, Sir Robert Anderson, believed that the day Jesus entered Jerusalem in his triumphal entry was the last day of this long period.
Whether or not the chronology is that exact, almost all expositors agree that the death of Christ is in view and that it occurred at the end of the sixty-ninth week.
What happened after 49 years that justifies breaking this period into two parts? Perhaps it was the end of the Old Testament revelation through the writing prophets. Another more probable view is that it took that long to clear out all the debris from Jerusalem and to restore it fully as a thriving city with streets and moat.
“This perfectly describes the work of Nehemiah and under what difficult circumstances he performed his tasks.” The reference to Jerusalem being rebuilt “with plaza and moat” (NASB) or “with streets and a trench” (NIV) has confused some readers since Jerusalem never had a typical moat or trench around it. However, the valleys of Hinnom and Kidron, on Jerusalem’s east, south and west sides, resemble a moat or trench around most of the city. In heavy rains they did and still do carry water and function as a moat or trench.
9:26 Most Christian interpreters have taken the cutting off of Messiah as a reference to Jesus Christ’s death. He had nothing then in a very real sense.
The prince who will come seems to be a different person from the Messiah. His people, not he himself, would destroy the city. This happened in A.D. 70 when the Roman army under Titus leveled Jerusalem.
The prince who will come, however, was evidently not Titus but a future ruler, namely, the Antichrist (7:8). Titus made no covenant with the Jews (v. 27). However, Titus did initially what this prince will do ultimately. Jerusalem did not end because of a literal flood of water in Titus’ day, but Roman soldiers overwhelmed it (cf. 11:10, 22, 26, 40; Isa. 8:8). War preceded the destruction.
Gabriel announced that God had determined the city’s desolation (cf. Matt. 24:7-22). Some interpreters believe that the end of this verse describes conditions that have followed Titus’ destruction and continue even today. Others think it only describes what Titus did.
Georgie Porgie // June 15, 2009 at 10:31 PM
Exegesis of Daniel 9 DANIEL’S VISION OF THE 70 SEVENS part 7
9:27 “In contrast to the rather clear fulfillment of verses 25-26, verse 27 is an enigma as far as history is concerned; and only futuristic interpretation allows any literal fulfillment.”
The nearest antecedent of “he” is “the prince who is to come” (v. 26). Since Titus made no covenant with Israel, so who is in view? Apparently a future ruler of the revived or reorganized Roman Empire, the little horn of chapter 7, is in view. This seems preferable to taking the antecedent of “he” as Messiah since Jesus Christ did not do the things predicted of the prince here.
This means that the seventieth week does not follow the sixty-ninth week immediately. Such a break in prophetic chronology has precedent in the predictions of Messiah’s first and second advents (Isa.61:1-2).
Another evidence of a break between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks is the fact that there was a 37-year gap between Messiah’s cutting off in A.D. 33 and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Yet Daniel presented both of these events as after the sixty-ninth week and before the seventieth week. Thus there must be a break in the chronology after the sixty-ninth week.
This future ruler, according to Gabriel, will make a covenant with “the many” for one week (seven years). “The many” evidently refers to Daniel’s people (v. 24), believers in the religion of the Jews (cf. 11:39; 12:2).
After three and one-half years, this Antichrist will terminate the sacrifices and offerings that he permitted these Jews to offer. Their ability to offer these sacrifices indicates that they will be back in the land worshipping at a rebuilt temple.
Perhaps the simplest explanation of the phrase “The wing of abominations” is to “on the wing of” in the sense of “with.” Apparently the prince will appear in the Jerusalem temple when he ends the sacrifices.
Daniel 12:11 refers to a future stopping of the Jewish sacrifices forty-two months before Messiah returns to the earth. Revelation 13:4-7 also describes this future ruler in harmony with what Gabriel revealed here.
Jesus too warned of him in Matthew 24:15-28 as did the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and the Apostle John in 1 John 2:18. The complete destruction decreed by God and poured out on this prince will come, according to these passages, when Messiah returns to the earth.
The strongest argument for a literal fulfillment of the events predicted in verse 27 is that the events predicted in verses 24-26 were fulfilled literally.
“The ‘abomination of desolation’ set up by Antiochus is not the ultimate fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 because (a)
Antiochus does not fit the time sequence given in that verse, and (b) long after the time of Antiochus, Jesus said Daniel’s prophecy of the abomination of desolation was
still future (Matt. 24:15-16).”
ROK // June 16, 2009 at 12:16 AM
Oh Boy! Swine Flew!
Ready-Done // June 16, 2009 at 7:11 AM
Honestly when it come to ‘religion’ i don’t like to read long boring quotes from a book that hundreds of years old, i prefer reasoning and my own common cents because i trust myself and my ability to chose right from wrong. after all man was made ‘programed’ with only right. Later we chose wrong. But all a we still got in the ‘right’ programing or conscience.(what ever you wanna call it)
Georgie Porgie // June 16, 2009 at 8:15 AM
Ready-Done
My postings above are not a long boring quote from a book that is hundreds of years old.
Instead it what is called an exegesis or interpretation of one of the most important chapters in the Bible that relates to the topic that is being discussed on this thread, THE RISE OF THE ANTICHRIST.
The posting has NOTHING to do with RELIGION which is by definition a system devised by men to appease a God.
It might surprise you that there are many men around the world who read ancient books including the Bible. Men make a living teaching Skakespeare, some make a living teaching Ancient History, even though it is thought that men tend to learn nothing from history. Some make a living from teaching Bible.
If you don’t like my posts, or if you are incapable of understanding them or if you are bored by them you have the choice to IGNORE them.
You say that with respect to religion that you “prefer reasoning and my own common cents”. That is exactly what the BIBLE calls following philosophy, vain deceit, following the traditions of men, after the rudiments of men rather than after Christ in Colossians 2:8. There is a caveat to doing that, which you are of course quite free to disregard.
It is amazing to stupid me that you are able to “trust myself and my ability to chose right from wrong” especially since the Bible declares that the heart (of man) is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. I know that this verse is true because I view the news everyday and I see the result of men failing to chose right from wrong ; and doing so VERY OFTEN!
Your understanding that “after all man was made ‘programed’ with only right” is also far from the truth and common observation.
Later we chose wrong.” This is of course contrary to all we know and have observed. We know that all are sinners as pointed out in the Scriptures several times, and we know that children NATURALLY DO WRONG & HAVE TO BE TAUGHT WHAT IS CORRECT. You know that, I know that, and even the little children know that!
Re “But all a we still got in the ‘right’ programing or conscience.(what ever you wanna call it)” We all know too that often times WE CAN NOT LET OUR CONSCIENCE BE OUR GUIDE. In fact from your comments above, it appears that your conscience is seared according to Bible parlance.
ROK // June 16, 2009 at 8:37 AM
@GP
“My postings above are not a long boring quote from a book that is hundreds of years old.”
That is how the man feel about your posts; whether it is commentary or not. Are you going to tell him how he feels? What next? Talk about arrogance.
I am really tired of the fact that men who calling themselves holy do not see the wickedness that they perpetrate. I know, GP, somebody tell you that man was born a sinner and you believe it; well that is your downfall and the basis of the mental enslavement.
ROK // June 16, 2009 at 9:05 AM
OK Chris, you just mark my words. One caution, the ideal and reality are two different things; I am sure you know that so it’s a reminder.
Zoe // June 16, 2009 at 9:41 AM
The obvious, empirical, day to day evidence that ALL of us are SINNERS, could not be more plainly witnessed than by observing children, from infancy, no matter what culture, class or creed they come from. Why is this so?
As Almighty God declares in His Word:
“Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, (in the womb) and in SIN did my mother conceive me.” (Psa. 51: 5).
Shapen = brought forth (in birth). It is not that the acts of giving birth or conceiving are in themselves sinful, but, that from the moment of conception, a person possesses a sinful nature.
This very inherent sinful nature, which was brought into the human race through Adam, and is imputed to ALL of us from conception, is an universal reality, the most empirically observable FACT of human nature, which is the core problem of all humanity, and no matter how much education and technological advancement man had made, WE simply CANNOT find any cure for this base of iniquity that resides in each and every one of us, SIN.
The entire, central focus of God’s Word, the Bible, from the beginning in Genesis, to Revelation, is the Lord’s gracious provision to all of mankind, in providing for us, a full pardon and reconcilation to Him, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Atoning death and Resurrection.
I have pointed this out a number of times before, and will do so again, they are Millions throughout the world, in every nation, regardless of colour, who have, and are continuing to find, forgiveness of SIN, and and full restoration of a personal relationship with Almighty God, our Creator, through Jesus Christ; no matter what country they come from, their TESTIMONY is the same; the Joy, Peace, and fulfillment they now have, came through ONE person only, Jesus Christ.
The scoffers, can scoff at this, but the reality across all nations, cannot be refuted; for this FREEDOM from all kinds of repression, is a living witness to the truth and reality of what God promised He would do for ANYONE, who come to Him, through Jesus.
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the colour of a man’s skin.
Children, as all of us can testify, as we were all once children, have to be constantly told what is the RIGHT thing to do, BUT, it was never necessary to be taught or instructed how to do the wrong thing, or act or behave in the WRONG way, why not? Because we came out of our mother’s womb with that inherent SIN nature, bent of doing what is wrong, SINFUL, exactly as God’s Word declares.
We cannot educate or philosophize away our SIN nature, the only answer for that malady, is the blood of Jesus Christ, which alone is able to cleanse us from all sin.
ROK // June 16, 2009 at 10:05 AM
@Zoe
“The obvious, empirical, day to day evidence that ALL of us are SINNERS, could not be more plainly witnessed than by observing children, from infancy, no matter what culture, class or creed they come from. Why is this so?”
Is that so? What I see coming from children is innocence not sin. If you choose to see yourself as a dog, sir/madam, you will be a dog. Plain and simple.
The empirical evidence will show that man is predominantly good and very little “evil” as you call it. By comparison would you say that by having 10,000 Muslims among us makes Barbados a Muslim society. How do you deal with empirical evidence?
In any school, the majority of bad behaviour is done by a handful of bad boys. We have 1000 prisoners at Dodds out of a population of 270,000; what sinners what!
Again the lie is being perpetuated by people who know not what they do.
Hopi // June 16, 2009 at 11:41 AM
@Zoe……you really got to be one ah dem igrunt men. What de hell is it about the womb that makes it iniquity? How is it that your mother conceived you in SIN? Or you too wish that you didn’t come here thru a vagina? What about your father did he beget you in sin too or is he alright with your God?
Why do you think they call our realm ‘Mother Earth’ or do you curse her too?
Georgie Porgie // June 16, 2009 at 12:02 PM
Hopi
You know full well that Zoe is commenting there on Psalms 51:5 which reads in the KJV, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
The word “shapen” means “be brought forth” (Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Lexicon, p. 297).
You know well that no one really believes that anything makes a womb iniquitous?
You know that the Bible teaches that our mothers conceived us in SIN or with the sin nature.
Exiting thru a vagina has nothing to do with the isuue. Do you know that some animals are formed in the uterus but dont exit through the vagina? ( Thats just an aside you ca check out LOL)
Our fathers also partyicipated in begetting us in sin with the sin nature too Hopi. And you know that very well.
Behave Hopi.Please dont descend to the level of……….. we all know who.
Watch now Hopi…..and see…..LOL
Peace
Ready-Done // June 16, 2009 at 12:08 PM
Georgie Porgie i am just saying that you could brake down the long post into your own words, or at least words that i could understand. BUT then again YOU would got to understand it to be able to put it in your own words.
I also want you to think and then answer.
How does a perfect being (God) create and imperfect being(man)????????
and what makes you think that children are sinners? children come into this world knowing little about it, they are just testing to find out what is acceptable.
Zoe // June 16, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Innocence, in children, from an chronological (age) perspective, must not be used to deny and overlook the fact of their capacity for sin; as we all SIN because we are ’sinners’ by nature, and not the other way. In other words, we sin, because we ARE sinners, this is why in very young children we see daily ‘disobedience’ screeming because they cannot have their own way, selfishness, lying against each other, etc, etc, rebellion against parental authority, and the lists goes on; this most certainly does not make anyone a ‘dog’ but most certainly a ’sinner.’
The Bible reveals the very essence of ’sin’ to be self-centeredness, and its tragic result to be death; but it also reveals God’s redemptive plan in Christ to make an end of sin for eternity.
Creation Declares SIN; Human History Declares SIN; Human Logic Declares SIN; Human Conscience Declares SIN; Human Experience Declares SIN; Human Religion Declares SIN; Believers Declare SIN; and Scriptures Declare SIN!
The higest court of appeal is the Word Of God. The Bible declares the universality of SIN, that all men are sinners in God’s sight, needing salvation (Psa. 14: 1-3; 53: 1-3; Rom. 5:12)
False concepts of the Holiness of God arise out of a false concept of sin, which lead to a lack of conviction and a lact of repentance.
There are many False Theories concerning Sin; the Atheistic Theory; the Deterministic Theory; the Evolutionary Theory; and the Hedonistic Theory.
The Hedonistic Theory, is probably the most popoular, the root word ‘hedonistic’ means “pleasure”, and it suggest the theory that a person should be free to do whatever brings pleasure and fulfillment. It is the philosophy of self-expression, proclaiming; ‘If it feels good, do it”. Justifying sin on a seemingly positive philosophic base, it has become quite popular in modern society; very much akin to ‘cultural and moral relativism’ that there is no ‘absolute’ or moral truth.
To deny the absolute reality of sin, as seen and witnessed in very young children, as ALL of us already know, apart from their innocence in (age) is to be willfully blind to this truth
Bible Definitions of Sin:
A. Scriptural Definitions:
There are six major Scriptures which define sin and all are seen in their embryonic form in the original sin of Satan and Adam.
1. The thought of foolishness.
Proverbs 24: 9 – “The thought of foolishness is sin:. When Satan and Adam entertained the ‘thought’ of being ‘as gods’ it was indeed ‘foolishness’ and this covetous ‘thought’ itself was sin.
2. Transgression of Law.
I John 3:4 – “Sin is transgression of the Law.” Transgress means “to pass across”, to go across a forbiddden boundary line. Adam transgressed God’s law.
3. Unrighteousness is Sin.
I John 5:17 – “All unrighteousness is sin”. Unrighteousness, or injustice, is sin. Adam committed an injustice to God and man by selling himself out to Satan.
4. Not doing good is Sin.
James 4:17 – ‘To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
Satan knew good and did it not. Adam knew good and did it not. Both knew God’s law and what would please Him; they both, volitionally, choose NOT to do the right thing, that IS Sin.
5. Unbelief is Sin.
Romans 14: 23 – “Whatever is not of faith is sin”. Adam and Eve knew the good and perfect will of God, yet sinned. They did not believe the Word of God, BUT, instead believed the word of the serpent. They fell from faith in the Word of God, to unbelief.
Sin, Hebrew, ‘Chattath” means “an offence, sometimes habitual sinfulness, and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation. It alse means “to miss, to sin by inference, to forfeit, to lack” (Lev. 4: 2-3, 25-35; Psa. 32: 1,5: 51: 2-5: Isa. 53: 10,12)
Transgression, Hebrew, “Pawsah” or “Pehshah” this word means, “to brake away from just authority; trespass, apostasize, quarrel, a revolt (nationa, moral or religious).”
Iniquity – Hebrew, “Avon, or avown” It means “perversity, evil, “do amiss” “make crooked” “commit iniquity” “pervert, fault”.
There IS NO man or woman, in B’dos, that has not broken the Laws of the land, in one way or another; either to a Mother, Father, Brother, Sister, etc, etc, in driving, in business affairs, it is just that most of us are not caught; otherwise, our Penal Institution, would have almost ALL of us up there!
Our land, like all other countries, is literally littered in SIN, one way or the other, YOU know this very well, so you can come with all of your ‘humanistic’ ungodly concepts and ideas, IT STILL IS SIN, and you know this!
NatiLaughAtDumbChristains // June 16, 2009 at 12:20 PM
This is fuckry. I cant believe people are actually sitting around having this discussion.
Hopi // June 16, 2009 at 12:39 PM
@GP………When did sin come into the picture? Did it come before christianity or after? And explain exactly what is this SIN….your own interpretation because
I say that the only sin is that of IGNORANCE!
Georgie Porgie // June 16, 2009 at 12:43 PM
Great exposition Zoe!
Why dont you brake it down (pun intended) further so that I and others who attended free secondary school in Barbados can understand, or dont you understand what you are saying to do so?
Georgie Porgie // June 16, 2009 at 12:45 PM
Ready Done
You seem to know a little about aquaponics STICK TO THAT!
I should brake down what long post into MY OWN WORDS? Why? Didn’t you go to secondary school? Why cant you understand SIMPLE SIMPLE ENGLISH WORDS?
Don’t you have a book called A DICTIONARY?
You would understand at least some of what I wrote if you tried. Then if you failed so to do, and you really wanted to understand more you would ask questions.
How come you understand aquaponics? You are interested in aquaponics.
Re BUT then again YOU would got to understand it to be able to put it in your own words.
Don’t think that because you didn’t understand that I don’t understand it Sir! Actually I UNDERSTOOD IT SO WELL THAT I WAS ABLE TO SIMPLY IT GREATLY FROM THE ORIGINAL.
One of the things I have found in life in studying anything whether Bible or Medicine…………you dont ever get any thing ready done! You got to work at it.
Georgie Porgie // June 16, 2009 at 12:53 PM
NatiLaughAtDumbChristains
I am sure that you KNOW that many Bajans discuss the Bible in all sorts of places in our country , including especially RUM SHOPS!
Some of the best hymn singing I have ever heard was in a rum shop my parents owned back in the early 60’s!
Hopi
Re When did sin come into the picture? Take you choice read about it in Genesis 3 and Isaiah 14 I think it is.
Sin preceded Christianity by ages since Christianity came after Christ.
Zoe has just quoted the Scriptural definitions of sin. I agree with his post.
I prefer you follow the Scriptural definitions than my interpretation….
Zoe // June 16, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Yes, IGNORANCE, is the state and condition of many in the world, meaning lacking true knowledge and understand vis-a-vis any particular subject matter.
Truth is based on understanding, knowledge, and intellect’s assent to truth. Thus, truth is grounded in intentionality.
But, many have had the opportunity to hear and learn, ‘truth’ based on factual evidence, confirmed by historic, legal varacity, and still remain by ‘choice’ volitionally in IGNORANCE, this is SIN!
“To say of what IS, that it IS, OR of what is NOT that it is NOT, is true.”
Aristotle, Metaphysics, 1077b-26.
“A proposition of fact is proved when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence.” (Simon Greenleaf- Testimony of the Evangelists…rule in municiple law).
Can you imagine taking three or four men/women of the street corner, or even from within an executive boardroom, who have NO training at all in jurisprudence, and replacing our learned High Court Justices, with them, to hear serious legal matters, and render competent judgements on such matters?
Or, for that matter, in an operating theatre at the QEH, what a fiasco that would be!
Enough said!
Ready-Done // June 16, 2009 at 2:17 PM
@Zoe wasn’t Adam punished from eating of the tree of knowledge? if that was so wouldn’t that in fact be the first sin?
How comes you talking bout things that happen before he actually did eat the fruit?
Could it be that MANS definition and GODS definition for sin is different?
About children and the apparent sin like tendencies, it simple every action is learn t, children are simply displaying behaviors they saw before.
I only saying that a blog is a place designed for personal discussion more so than lectures.
Georgie Porgie // June 16, 2009 at 2:43 PM
Ready-Done
Read the text again and you will see that Adam WAS NOT punished for eating of the tree of knowledge?
Re Could it be that MANS definition and GODS definition for sin is different?
You bet there are! What guess what? God does not care very much about MANS definition of sin, does he?
Re How comes you talking bout things that happen before he actually did eat the fruit?
Read what Zoe said again and you will see that he is not that dense to speak of things that happen before Adam actually did eat the fruit.
Re About children and the apparent sin like tendencies, it simple every action is learn t, children are simply displaying behaviors they saw before.
That is simply not true from the research done in this area.
Re I only saying that a blog is a place designed for personal discussion more so than lectures.
Who made that rule?
Folk can learn from lectures and from personal discussion if the persons doing the discussion know what they are talking about.
I have listened to rummies on my father’s porch talk a load of nonsense about the Bible on Sunday’s after church. They go sing in the choir on Sundays , and then come and drink rum and talk a load of bull about lots of stuff that none of them know anything about, as most Bajans do.
They were having personal duscussions too, but NONE of them had read ANYTHING or STUDIED ANYTHING CONCERNING WHAT THEY WERE DISCUSSING. Such discussion is pointless and hot air!
If you dont like lectures omit them or dont attend them………but then go and study the subject matter for yourself elsewhere. LOL
Ready-Done // June 16, 2009 at 3:48 PM
I prefer my information direct form a knowledgeable source. Whither reading or face to face.
I going to ask again How could a perfect being make an imperfect one?
I get most of my inspiration form John Locke, David Hume, and Sigman frued, the boys on the block, the men in the rum shop, and the nuff nuff women that pass through my life. But most of all from personal observation of the laws of nature. I believe these are the best teachers one can have.
Sigmund the father of psychoanalytics say that we learn every thing, Locke believed nothing was innate.
before we go any further we must recognize that as MAN we can only know so much, we can never know why we were made because then we would be better than the maker. we can only figher out what we are, never why we were made.
Georgie Porgie // June 16, 2009 at 4:07 PM
Re I prefer my information direct form a knowledgeable source. Whither reading or face to face. GREAT THEN ON BU BLOGS ON BIBLE YOU HAVE TWO SUCH SOURCES LOL
I going to ask again How could a perfect being make an imperfect one?
Actually when God made man he was GOOD!…………but that was before the entry of sin!
Ready-Done // June 16, 2009 at 4:16 PM
You saying god the all creator did not make sin? or he dident know that man would have turn to sin?
ROK // June 16, 2009 at 4:36 PM
@Zoe
“Yes, IGNORANCE, is the state and condition of many in the world…”
Of course you are no exception and is a perfect example of those kinds of people in the world. As a matter of fact, all christians are in that boat.
ROK // June 16, 2009 at 4:39 PM
@GP
You really have nothing better to do than to poke fun at people’s intelligence. You fit right into Zoe’s exposition:
“Yes, IGNORANCE, is the state and condition of many in the world…”
Don’t mind them, Ready Done, You mesmerising a Barbados Scholar and the only way he trying to get around you is by ridicule… but let he know he ridiculing himself… and continue to press him to keep it short and simple. Other Barbados Scholars on here don’t read him so I do not know who he and Zoe are writing for.
ROK // June 16, 2009 at 4:46 PM
@ Ready-Done
“You saying god the all creator did not make sin? or he dident know that man would have turn to sin?”
Powerful question. Keep it up. He can’t answer without a mile of script so that by the time you done read at the bottom, you forget what was at the top of the post. You know what that type of answer means?
It means no answer at all. He has to concoct all kinds of reasons for his answer but we will be monitoring he to see how he deals with you. We ain’t going to let he get no foolishness past you.
ROK // June 16, 2009 at 4:54 PM
@GP
“Actually when God made man he was GOOD!…………but that was before the entry of sin!”
You tell that to primary school children. Excuse my expression, but only an ASS would believe that an all-knowing, all-powerful god who you claim to be the Creator, created everything but sin… your head in the sand…
but let me tell you something, if your god did not create sin, then your god is not the Creator because the Creator created everything. Signed and sealed…
or maybe you think that man is a creator too and created sin? The truth is your god has no power to create, does he?
ROK // June 16, 2009 at 5:03 PM
@GP
“Read the text again and you will see that Adam WAS NOT punished for eating of the tree of knowledge?”
Well! Well! Well! Is that not why man has to eat by the sweat of his brow? Is that not why man was refused the tree of life? Is that not why the serpent goeth upon his belly?
Not only man get punished in that wrath but the serpent too… or are you going to re-write the bible now?
Georgie Porgie // June 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM
Ready Done
I invite you to listen to Adrian Rogers on James 1:13 on The Anatomy of a Sin
http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Love_Worth_Finding/archives.asp?bcd=6/5/2009
You see I know whom I have believed, and what I believe.
Best Wishes
Annonymous // June 17, 2009 at 8:02 PM
Rok
Can you answer any of these questions for me?
You are so very smart, I think.
1. Who are the Sons of God and daughters of men in Gen 6th chapter in that age?
2. In Noah’s age only the 8 believers are there, so to whom Moses was referring as the Sons of God.
3. Sons of God married daughters of men,who are they?
4. Only eight were saved from Noah’s family,so who are these Sons of God referring to?
5. Who are the Nephilim? Are they borne by sons of God and daughters of men?
Grateful for your assistance.
ROK // June 17, 2009 at 8:52 PM
@ Anonymous,
See the Nephilim Clip:
ROK // June 17, 2009 at 8:53 PM
Anonymous
I think it is you who are smart but I will answer you according to the evidence I have seen.
Before I do, I think we have to understand that while the bible is a lie by its very nature, there is some historical truth, albeit misplaced, in the bible, which formed part of the so-called “mythology” coming from the Egyptians and the Sumerians; later the Pagans, which told or tells of the “religious” experiences of these.
“1. Who are the Sons of God and daughters of men in Gen 6th chapter in that age?”
The Sons of God refers to the race which dominated the earth at the time and which held their leader up as a God. The Sons of God were the male of the race which “made” man. We are a genetic experiment and as the story goes, the experiment looked good but the children coming from the experiment were like freaks.
The most important part of that story is the fact that these “Sons of God” had such an influence and power over Human beings that they simply picked the ones they liked; whether it was somebody’s wife or daughter and that man or parent simply had to humble. That is part of the reality of who and what this god of the bible is and which is why I keep calling for a definition of god.
Moses was referring to the Anunnaki, the race of people whose leader was referred to as God. I understand that there are several species of them but one of the species looks like us. Remember, God said, let us make man in our image and in our likeness. Note also though that it is not a case of God making man from scratch but a modification of Homo Erectus or one preceding erectus. Check the language, Let us make man in our own image”; Man was already there. Take a peek at the hindu scriptures; I think they called him the Monkey God (common name). He exterminated an entire city that offended his master. He was later idolised as a God, but he seemed to be what man looked like before the genetic experiment that started with Adam.
Once they were satisfied with the genetic experiment they proceeded to eradicate any threat to man, giving man control (dominion) of the earth.
Therefore all of the children produced from the union of man and anunnaki were destroyed. These were called the Nephilim. The dinosaur was about the first to be annihilated, as they also posed a serious danger to the safety of the gods too. These animals were powerful and huge. I am going to try to post a google video of some of the evidence of the existence of these Nephilim; next post.
ROK // June 17, 2009 at 9:11 PM
@ Anonymous
See URL:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8534397625940239162
Thanatos // June 17, 2009 at 9:35 PM
Rok, What is the logical basis in historic evidence and fact, supporting your theory on these Sons of God?
Also, what and where is the evidence of your contention that the Bible is a lie?
How are we suppose to evaluate two competing arguments, without some basis in logical, historic fact and evidence?
From what I have heard, read, and checked out so far, it seems that the Bible has passed the test of historic evidence, logic, and reason; whereas, these other sources that you refer to are all largely mythological?
We can’t have it both ways, it is either/or, and the same critical standards used to determine if other ancient historic documents are reliable, from secular writers, have been used to evaluate the Biblical documents, and from what research I’ve done, the Biblical documents, are way ahead of all other ancients documents in passing all of the test.
Are you saying then, that all of these wide variety of highly trained men/women, who painstakingly examine ancients documents are all liars?
Hopi // June 17, 2009 at 9:47 PM
“Are you saying then, that all of these wide variety of highly trained men/women, who painstakingly examine ancients documents are all liars?” YES, YES & YES…..LIARS of the highest order.
Such damn good liars that they have most of my racial group giving their power to a god that looks and thinks like the LIARS!DAMN!
ROK // June 17, 2009 at 10:01 PM
@Thanatos
“From what I have heard, read, and checked out so far, it seems that the
Bible has passed the test of historic evidence, logic, and reason;
whereas, these other sources that you refer to are all largely
mythological?”
and exactly where did you find the evidence that the bible passed the test? You are trying to press me for evidence and your only evidence is belief. I would have to be a madman to comply with your request.
“Mythological”? That is the problem. You take a legitimate set of historical facts, label them as mythological and label your mythology as historical. Who you think you fooling.
What you calling mythology are living facts that men lived and breathed. You take a bible coming after all of that, which is designed to win a politrical battle for the minds of men, in the name of power, wealth and corruption, to lead mankind away from his genuine experience into a fairy tale world.
Now you have absolutely no proof of anything in the bible but you believe it so strongly that you asking for facts about facts. If you really have proof of anything in the Bible, I want you t6o answer the following questions:
1. Do you have any records of Moses living in any Pharaoh’s court/palace?
2. Is there any evidence that Joseph was of very high office in Pharaoh’s court? Some document he signed, some reference to him in Egyptian records.
3. Are there any records of Christ in Roman History? This is a man that had a profound effect on the Roman Empire, surely, there should be some record of his charges, his sentence, something in the Roman records?
If you could at least show me the evidence of these things you calling historical facts, I will gladly show you my evidence. Otherwise, ma boy, as your GP would say, Later for you.
ROK // June 17, 2009 at 10:07 PM
@Thanatos
I hope that you understand that proof of the lie is the fact that you cannot find any evidence to prove any of the questions above.
I rest my case.
Ready-Done // June 17, 2009 at 10:26 PM
Until people learn to trust them self and not a book they will be slaves to who ever controls the book. One should note that according to the bible God used to frequent the earth but he stopped after the bible books began to be written.
@Georgie Porgie, i wan to hear from you!
There are other things i want to discuss about the bible, i want to pick it down and put it back up, maybe then i could be satisfied enough to step back into a church.
Zoe // June 18, 2009 at 10:19 AM
In previous threads months ago, Carlos dealt with the ‘redherrings’ you are seeking to reimpose on this thread; the preponderance of facts and evidence, historically, can be denied, scoffed at, ridiculed, BUT, cannot be refuted.
Hopi, you can call the amazing collection of scholarly examiniation of the Biblical documents, liars, BUT, it still remains factual, sound, logical, and the burden of proof to the contrary remains on YOU; which you simply cannot refute, by just sayings liars; any yo-yo, can make that accusation, PROVE IT, PROVE IT, not with malicious LIES, redherrings, and stawmen, PROVE IT FALSE. Where is the evidence to confute, the historic reality of hundreds of prophetic declarations from the Old Testament, literally fulfilled in the birth, life, ministry, Resurrection, and ascension of The Lord Jesus Christ, with vast multitudes, multiplied Millions, over the last 2000 years, from every nation on earth, resolutely, by living testimony of utterly transformed lives, from ‘within’ exactly as Jesus said it would happen, and continuing right up until today, across the earth, exactly as He said it would happen, with BLACKS all across Africa, Russia, China, the Middle East, all across South America, with over 25 Million new Born Again believers, each and every years, jumping for JOY, PEACE, PURPOSE, that they NEVER had before, UNTIL, by faith, coming to JESUS CHRIST, as their Personal Saviour and Lord, being LIBERATED from so many different kinds of Bondage, False religion, idolatry, secular materialism, etc, etc, ALL converging with the same living TESTIMONY, to the reality, of the transforming POWER of Christ, in their hearts and lives.
All of those idolatrous, mythological, civilizations, ALL came crashing down, paganistic bondage, to Satanic deceptions.
The Lord Jesus Christ, said, “…I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades (Hell) SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT.” (Matt. 16: 18b).
You can Huff, Puff, scream, spit fire out of your mouth against His Church, turn ‘blue’ in your face, IT WON’T WORK, CAN’T WORK, WILL NEVER WORK, as you will DIE in your SIN, attempting your raging FOLLY, FOOLISHENESS, and IGNORANCE!
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 10:20 AM
Ready-Done
Re Until people learn to trust them self and not a book they will be slaves to who ever controls the book.
Can you really trust yourself Ready done? Have you not reacted in ways to situations where you swore that you would never behave in that way?
Have you ever done things you know you ought not to have done, or said things you knew you ought not to have said, and then regretted it afterwards?
Does the Bible not teach that “the heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it? Does this not suggest that none of us know even our own hearts?
Is this why we commit sins of omission and sins of commission?
Does not Paul address this issue in Romans 7 where he asserted that he had a struggle in doing things which he ought not to have done, and not doing things that he ought?
My experience with people who believe the Bible is that they are not slaves to the “book” at all. All people in the world are slaves to sin according to Jesus teaching in John 8.
Like Paul, Christians are engaged in the personal battle to chose right over wrong. The fact that such a battle exists indicates that they are not enslaved by the Bible. If they were enslaved, they would all be perfectly obedient at all times. Clearly, we are not!
Re
One should note that according to the bible God used to frequent the earth but he stopped after the bible books began to be written.
When I read this sentence, I thought immediately of Hebrews 1:1 which encompasses your thought. Hebrews 1:1 reads thus
God, who at sundry times and in divers [diverse] manners spake in time pass unto the fathers by the prophets
It is most notable that this verse and this book begin with the word God. In the Book of Hebrews, as in the Book of Genesis, no attempt is made to prove God’s existence. Both books assume that there is a God. The Bible makes no effort to try to prove the existence of God.
The second assumption we find in Hebrews 1:1 is that God has spoken or revealed Himself to mankind via the divinely inspired Word of God.The revelation to which he refers is the revelation of the Old Testament as we have it today.
The word for “sundry times” in the Greek is polumeroµs. It is used to emphasize the fact that God added to His revealed truth as He dealt with different men over a period of time. This verse streeses that there is a development of the truth in the Bible.
The word for “Divers [diverse] manners is polutropoµs!” means that God used different ways of communicating. His ways included supernatural interventions into history as well as natural phenomena such as storms, plagues, and other historical events.
He spoke through dreams, He spoke through the Law, He spoke through the types, He spoke through ritual, He spoke through history, He spoke through poetry, and He spoke through prophecy. His ways also included people, namely, the prophets, through whom He spoke (cf. 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21). He used all these different ways over a long period of time, using about forty-five writers and communicating His Word over a period of about fifteen hundred years. God used many, human writers with different backgrounds and different abilities to give us the Old Testament as we have it today
Re There are other things i want to discuss about the bible, i want to pick it down and put it back up, maybe then i could be satisfied enough to step back into a church.
LOL . I am sure that a sincere attempt on your part to understand the Bible will have a most positive result for you , just as it has for many former atheists, skeptics and agnostics (not that I am accusing you of being any of these.)
Technician // June 18, 2009 at 10:38 AM
GP…..do you and Zoe sit side by side?
I cant help noticing the timing of your posts…….just asking.
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 10:50 AM
Technician
No, we dont. I am overseas and I guess he is in Barbados.
I have never met him either, actually.
Sorry to dissapoint you.
Ready-Done // June 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM
I never said there is no god, I KNOW there is.
I never said the bible is a lie, Just that MAN’s interpretation has ulterior motives.
The bible as we know it is a collection of books written by men during the span of 1500 years, so why did not all books found during that time put in the bible? why only the books we have present today? were all the rest inspired be the devil.
What is the criteria for saying a book is inspired by God?
What gives any man the authority to decide that a book is inspired be god?
and What make you think that GOD spend 1500 years looking after we and giving instruction but he done now?
If it is because he send Jesus that would make the new testament void, wouldn’t it?
What is the defining point in time that we would know for sure god dun wid we. ‘his most love creation’ even above the angels in heaven where he lives.
Why shouldent i trust my self? ‘ HIS most love creation’ even above the angels in heaven where he lives.
Ready-Done // June 18, 2009 at 10:52 AM
@ Zoe this ent Carlos this is Ready-Done
Hopi // June 18, 2009 at 10:58 AM
@Zoe……..the pot calling the kettle white. Just in case you don’t know, your christianity was borne out of our MYTHOLOGY! So go figure.
But from the depths of my heart Zoe, and Massey’s pen,I dedicate this to you:
“Begone, you foolish preachers!
Howlers, snuffers, screechers!
You miserable teachers!
You god-of-blood beseechers!
You forgers of God’s features!
Who make us the devil’s creatures;
Shut up, you foolish preachers!
Get out, you hell-fire screechers,
Go home, you played-out preachers!”
Have yaself a lovely day, dawling!
Zoe // June 18, 2009 at 10:59 AM
The uniqueness and God-breathed character of the ‘inspiration’ of the Bible is indicated in the ‘effect’ of its teachings upon the lives of those who have found “LIFE” in Christ, through its instrumentality, solely on the ground of of Jesus’ Atoning work on His cross at Calvary, to which it testifies.
As Professor Orr says:
“The simple fact that in this sacred volume, so marvellous in its own structure, so harmonious and complete in the view it gives of the dealings of Almighty God with man, so rich and exhaustless in its spiritual content, so filled with the manifest presence and power of the Spirit of Almighty God, we have everything we need to acquaint us fully with the mind and will of Almighty God for our Salvation, and to supply us for all the ends of our spiritual life, is sufficient evidence, that the revelation which God has given is, in every essential particular, purely and faithfully embodied in it.”
Again, I say a resounding, resolute, YES, unified with my Brothers and Sisters, regardless of Colour, around the world, that WE can all TESTIFY to this FACT, that Almighty God, In Christ Jesus, through the Indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, according to His Word, the Bible, has PROVED to us, that He has done, and continues to DO, in our hearts and lives, ALL that He promised He would DO!
You haters of Almighty God and Christ Jesus, YOU can never take away the reality of our TESTIMONY, that Jesus Christ, IS our living, Resurrected, Ascended, Saviour and Lord, for we KNOW, that we KNOW, in our ‘knower’ that HE IS ALIVE!!!
For we are living PROOF of this reality!
Technician // June 18, 2009 at 10:59 AM
Not disappointed GP…..more like relief …LOL.
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 11:12 AM
On the question of WHO WERE THE NEPHILIM OR GIANTS
First who the giants and nephilim are NOT!
The origin and identity of the giants of Genesis 6:4 is one of the controversial topics in discussing both the book of Genesis, as well as in discussions on Jude verse 6.
Many teachers and students of the Bible opine that the giants mentioned in Genesis 6:1-4, were the offspring resulting when fallen angels assumed human bodies, and cohabited with the daughters of men. They believe too that this is the specific sin of “ the angels that kept not their first estate but left their own habitation ” as described in Jude 6.
The opinion that the “sons of God” were fallen angels, and the “daughters of men” were humans just does not seem to make much Biblical sense. The Bible does not anywhere identify conclusively the specific sin referred to in Genesis 6 verse 2, or in Jude 6.
That they are former angels which are now demons is clear from the events described in the gospels and the book of Acts, which describes the confrontation of them with Jesus and the apostles respectively. That there is another class of imprisoned angels is also clear from Jude verse 6.
One can infer that these “fallen” angels were separated or differentiated by God for some good specific reason best known to him. In my view, however, the crime that has kept them in chains while other former angels are now free to rove as demons is not clearly described or discussed in the Bible; even though the event in Genesis 6 is often cited as the offence which caused the differentiation of the fallen angels into the free angels and the imprisoned angels. There is no clear Biblical warrant for this view.
What is clear is that “if these were good angels, they would not commit this sin. On the other hand, evil angels could not be designated sons of God, in my opinion. And then, the offspring here were men. They were not monstrosities.
I do not know why it is assumed by so many that the offspring here were giants. Except of course that folk wont read the text correctly and follow proper Hermeneutics in their interpretation.
It says there were giants in the earth in those days, but it doesn’t say they were the offspring of this union. It does say they were men of renown. They were not monstrosities, but they were men. It is clear that the text makes it very clear that the giants were in the earth before this took place.
A sensible and sound opinion which is in harmony with other texts where this word is translated giant indicates that it simply means these were outstanding individuals.
Much of the discussion in commentaries on this verse centers on whether angels could copulate with men and whether god or bad angels would so behave etc, but the identity and other features of the giants are not described . Among the arguments, however against angels being involved in originating the giants include the following.
“Since angels are spirits and do not have bodies, how could a spirit being have a physical relation with a woman, even if that being assumed a temporary body of some kind? And particularly when Jesus Christ himself specifically declared and taught that the angels cannot marry suggesting that they were asexual (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25)
In the Old Testament record, there are instances where angels appeared in human form, but this was not incarnation. Moreover, angels do not appear in the first five chapters of the book, nor do they appear clearly in this context. And it is strange that judgment would fall on man alone for the sin committed when angels presumably bore the primary guilt.
The bible clearly teaches that God sent the Flood because of what man did, not what angels did. “My spirit shall not always strive with man …. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth…. And it repented [grieved] the Lord that He had made man on the earth” (Gen. 6:3, ). If this “fallen angel’ view is correct, God should have repented that He created the angels! Don’t you think?
“Genesis 6:4 actually presents a strong argument against the view that fallen angels cohabited with women and produced a race of giants. For it states that “There were giants in the those days; and also after that’. This would indicate that -a second invasion of fallen angels had took place and we have no record of this in Scripture.
Both Peter and Jude state clearly that these rebellious angels are chained in darkness and reserved for judgment. They would have to have invaded the earth prior to being arrested and chained by God. We wonder why God would have permitted them to “run loose’ long enough to get the women into sin and help to cause the great Flood.” (Wiersbe )
It is not possible to discover or be dogmatic about the specific sin referred to in Genesis 6verse 2 from the text. It may be that angels overstepped their bounds, or that men used no spiritual discrimination in choosing mates, or that polygamy was involved.
What is clear to me, from the text, is that giants were present before the marriages mentioned took place, as well as after that, and that the offspring of unions mentioned in 4b were “mighty men,” strong in battle, and “men of renown,” known for their various talents. Coming in this context, reference must be to abilities that were misapplied for the corruption of society.
Morris posits that the giants of Genesis 6:4 were the children of the unions of demonically controlled men and women of this period. He suggests that the Hebrew word nephilim which comes from the verb naphal (“fall”) should be rendered is “those who have fallen,” in reference probably to the nature of their pseudoparents, the fallen angels rather than “those who fall upon”-that is, “attackers”.
Zoe // June 18, 2009 at 11:24 AM
Technician, I confirm GP, I have never met him, we live thousands of mikes apart; but we are obviously led by the same Holy Spirit of God, interesting, isn’t it!
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 11:25 AM
On the question of WHO WERE THE NEPHILIM OR GIANTS
Who the nephilim or giants were.
The Hebrew noun, “Nephilim” translated giant, comes from a word “naphal” which signifies to fall and these might be so called, either because they made their fear to fall upon men, or men, through fear, to fall before them, because of their height and
strength; or rather because they fell and rushed on men with great violence, and oppressed them in a cruel and tyrannical manner; or, as some think, because they fell off and were apostates from the true religion, which is much better than to understand them of apostate angels.
My simple interpretation of the text is meant was that there were giants before and after the general defection to apostasy resulting from the admixture of the Cainites and Sethites ( i.e the offspring of the sons of God, or posterity of Seth, mixing with the daughters of men, or the posterity of Cain ).
I support the view that in the midst of a rapid population explosion of that era, that the godly line of Seth or Sethites (“the sons of God”) took wives of the ungodly line of the daughters of men (or the Cainites),as they began to mingle with them. This resulted in the break down of the walls of separation, leading to compromise and eventually degrading sin, and that the offspring resulting from these unions of believers (the Sethites) with unbelievers (the Cainites) became mighty men in the sense that they were tall and strong, and had power and dominion, and were tyrants and oppressors. It is in this way that they were “giants”, and “men of renown”.
The Bible implies from an understanding of the preceding chapters; i.e 4 (which describes the Cainites) and chapter 5 (which describes the Sethites) that in the days before the sons of God (assumed to be the Sethites) took the daughters of men (assumed to be the Cainites) for wives and induced a general and universal declension in morals and apostasy that they were giants in the earth in those days, (and that these men seem to have to have been giants in wickedness as well as in physical characteristics.) The Bible does not however really say that these giants were begotten of the daughters of Cain by the children of Seth.
What is clear is that some of the offspring resulting from these unions were afterwards spoken of, as “men of renown”, or “of name” ; meaning that their names were often made mention of, both for their size and for their wickedness. That is to say they were much talked of, and extolled for their wicked exploits
They were thus both famous and infamous men; since some men get a name in the world, not for their goodness, but for their greatness, and sometimes for their great wickedness.
The text certainly acknowledges the presence of giants before the sons of God caused daughters of men to bare children for them , some of whom were giants, but the term “giants” in Hebrew implies not so much the idea of great stature or that they were fallen angels , but more that they were fallen in their sins and attitudes of reckless ferocity, impious and daring characters, who spread devastation and carnage far and wide.
This interpretation of that there were giants or mighty men in these early times is confirmed by the testimony of many Heathen
writers. The Greek myths of heroes, born of unions between divine beings and human women, such as Hercules are no doubt echoes of these times and events. Such heroes known for both their bulky bodies and their invincible strength, and to dwell in cities with men of like size and great strength , and who were inventors of arms and music, cannibalistic, and exceedingly debauched.
One author opines that “ They were giants, and they were men of renown. With their great bulk, as the sons of Anak, (Num. 13: 33) and with their great name, as the king of Assyria ( Isa.37:11) these men made them the terror of the mighty in the land of the living; and, thus armed, they daringly insulted the rights of all their neighbours and trampled upon all that is just and sacred. Those that have so much power over others as to be able to oppress them have seldom so much power over themselves as not to oppress; great
might is a very great snare to many. This degenerate race slighted the honour their ancestors had obtained by virtue and religion, and made themselves a great name by that which was the perpetual ruin of their good name.”
What is very clear is that the demoniacal combination of the materialism and ungodliness of the Cainitic civilization in general, with this infusion of the Serpent’s seed directly into large numbers of the human race and then with the thrusting forth of hordes of the monstrous offspring of these unlawful unions, all led to conditions in the world which were finally intolerable even to a God of compassion and long-suffering.
The demon-possessed men and their progeny, along with all the other godless inhabitants of the antediluvian world, were soon to perish in the waters of the Flood.
I hope that these notes (though scholarly and lecture like… and even boring) bring more clarity to answering this question.
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 11:32 AM
Hopi
My first teacher of Homilectics (the art of preaching) condemned some preachers whom he said only had a whoop, a holler, a short story, and a poem.
And so I have never followed this practice. However one day i will speak on the FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING taking my text from I Corinthians 1 ;23-24 and I will use this poem of yours to illustrate this Bible truth.
Thank you!
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 11:35 AM
Oh by the way on the subject of the nephilim once more
Satan is an ingenious contriver of falsehoods, by which he would corrupt the truth of God, and in this manner render it suspect, the poets have invented many fables and myhs concerning the “giants” when a simple inductive exegesis of the Word of God usually brings much clarity!
Hopi // June 18, 2009 at 11:37 AM
@GP…….Can you specifically identify those of the serpent seed?
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 11:44 AM
@ Annonymous, I hope that the following note answers your questions.
1. Who are the Sons of God and daughters of men in Gen 6th chapter in that age?
From reading Genesis chapter 4 and 5, it would seem reasonable to infer that the Sons of God were the descendants of Seth (the Sethites, described in chapter 5) and the daughters of men, the descendants of Cain (the Cainites, described in chapter 4). Note NOT the Caanites!
2. In Noah’s age only the 8 believers are there, so to whom Moses was referring as the Sons of God.
4. Only eight were saved from Noah’s family, so who are these Sons of God referring to?
These are vague questions which both need clarification.
3. Sons of God married daughters of men, who are they?
Answered in #1 above.
4. Only eight were saved from Noah’s family,so who are these Sons of God referring to?
5. Who are the Nephilim? Are they borne by sons of God and daughters of men?
Answered in two posts above
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Hopi
You are an unreasonable umman you know. LOL
You quoting poetry on BU and don’t want me to use poetic license in my prose?
In the piece I wrote “the serpent’s seed” refers of course to the influence of the devil…. as you well know.
If you read 1 John 3 you will see that the believer is to act as if he really has been indued with the seed of God the Father in contrast to that of the serpent. This implication is suggested by the illustration that follows which contrasts Abel with Cain (note that a similar contrast is made in Jude and in Hebrews 11).
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 12:33 PM
Ready-Done
Re
I never said there is no god, I KNOW there is.
I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW THAT TRUTH JUST AS OTHERS HERE DO even some pretend not to LOL
I never said the bible is a lie, Just that MAN’s interpretation has ulterior motives.
THIS IS CERTAINLY SO IN SOME CASES THEY MISINTERPRET IT DELIBERATELY. Peter in 2 Peter 3 says that the “WREST” the scriptures. Some add some subtract from what it says.
IN OTHER CASES THEY MISINTERPRET IT INNOCENTLY BECAUSE THEY DON’T STUDY IT PROPERLY
The bible as we know it is a collection of books written by men during the span of 1500 years, so why did not all books found during that time put in the bible? why only the books we have present today? were all the rest inspired be the devil. What is the criteria for saying a book is inspired by God? What gives any man the authority to decide that a book is inspired be god?
THIS IS A BIG SUBJECT CALLED CANONICITY. It has partially been addressed on this thread under mauscripts.
RE and What make you think that GOD spend 1500 years looking after we and giving instruction but he done now?
If it is because he send Jesus that would make the new testament void, wouldn’t it? What is the defining point in time that we would know for sure god dun wid we.
Answer:
I am sorry if I gave you the understanding that God done wid we now by my post.
Hebrews 1:1 does indeed teach that God no longer speaks to man in the many different ways like he did in the past, but verse 2 goes on to say that NOW HE SPEAKS T US BY HIS SON!
We know from our study of the OT that God revealed himself at various times by several methods including supernatural interventions into history as well as natural phenomena such as storms, plagues, and other historical events. He spoke through dreams, He spoke through the Law, He spoke through the types, He spoke through ritual, He spoke through history, He spoke through poetry, and He spoke through prophecy. His ways also included people, namely, the prophets, through whom He spoke (cf. 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21). He used all these different ways over a long period of time, using about forty-five writers and communicating His Word over a period of about fifteen hundred years. God used many, human writers with different backgrounds and different abilities to give us the Old Testament as we have it today
BUT NOW HE DEALS WITH MEN ON A MORE INDIVIDUAL BASIS BY HIS SON THROUGH HIS HOLY SPIRIT. In fact God has a better way of dealing with men today. Perhaps Zoe can show you from John’s gospel and the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, and the doctrine of adaption etc how God deals with believers today.
Re Why shouldent i trust my self? ‘ HIS most love creation’ even above the angels in heaven where he lives.
I have already explained that to you Sir. And you know that you can’t. You know too that you cant trust other men either. So do like the saints at Berea and search the scriptures for yourself to see if the answers I give you are correct! And whatever you do, don’t give heed toseducing spirits! LOL.
Ready-Done // June 18, 2009 at 12:34 PM
this is a repost because no body ent even attempt to answer, i first was talking to gorgy porgy but now i asking anyone.
I never said there is no god, I KNOW there is.
I never said the bible is a lie, Just that MAN’s interpretation has ulterior motives.
The bible as we know it is a collection of books written by men during the span of 1500 years, so why did not all books found during that time put in the bible? why only the books we have present today? were all the rest inspired be the devil.
What is the criteria for saying a book is inspired by God?
What gives any man the authority to decide that a book is inspired be god?
and What make you think that GOD spend 1500 years looking after we and giving instruction but he done now?
If it is because he send Jesus that would make the new testament void, wouldn’t it?
What is the defining point in time that we would know for sure god dun wid we. ‘his most love creation’ even above the angels in heaven where he lives.
Why shouldent i trust my self? ‘ HIS most love creation’ even above the angels in heaven where he lives.
Hopi // June 18, 2009 at 1:57 PM
@GP………Ya got me dying! How can you call me unreasonable? Aren’t there some people on this planet today who manifest devil/evil, just by their action?
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 2:10 PM
Hopi
Of course you are correct that there are some people on this planet today who manifest devil/evil, just by their action.
We cant deny that at all.
You do notice that they have one on this forum that I ignore totally? Dont you? LOL
I TRY, to always avoid the very appearance of evil , ma dear.
Ready-Done // June 18, 2009 at 2:19 PM
Georgie Porgie you said some things that seems like they could pass, but what is your definition of a sprit?
Hopi // June 18, 2009 at 2:49 PM
@GP…….We have some in public office too!
And I know that you are no speaking of my soul-brother in this anti-christ fight! Say it ain’t so!
Zoe // June 18, 2009 at 3:47 PM
Regarding the Divine Inspiration of the Scriptures, the Bible; W.E. Vine offers the following comments.
“Now in the first place the term ‘inspiration’ is no where in Scripture applied to the writers of its contents. Inspiration is predicated of the Scriptures themselves. The actual term which the Apostle Paul uses to declare the fact is ‘theopneustos’ which signifies “God-breathed” (2 Tim. 3:16).
“The absence, then, of any statement that the writers were inspired, precludes any appeal to Scripture as the basis of a comparison between them and other authors in this respect.”
The Apostle Peter states that:
“No prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation ( the word rendered ‘prophecy’ does not denote prediction of future events, it signifies the telling forth of the mind of God, and applies, therefore, to all that which constitutes the Word of God), for no prophecy ever came by the will of man; but holy men spake from God, being moved ( Literally, ‘born along’), by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21).
In other words, none of the writers, whom Almighty God used in conveying His eternal Word through, as they were moved, ‘born along’ by the Holy Spirit, would have known, by natural reason, any of the Divine insight, which they were given, had they not being Inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is essentially what makes the Bible absolutely unique in its content.
But, the question still remains whether the evidence of the writings of Scripturew themselves forbid the comparison. It is a simple matter to put to the test.
A vary large proportion of the Bible is, for instance, prefaced in one place or another, by, “Thus saith the Lord,” “Hear the word of the Lord,” and similar phrases, and the contents which follow vindicate the validity of the declaration.
Jeremiah alone says nearly 100 times, ” The Word of the Lord came unto me.” Some 60 times Ezekiel says his writings are “the words of God.” In the small compass of the four brief chapters of the last book of the Old Testament, “Thus said the Lord,” occurs 24 times. More than 2,000 times in one way or the other, the Scriptures declare that they are the Word of God. Scores of other similar testimonies might be enumerated from the writers of the sacred volume. Isaiah says, e.g., in reference to his message, “The Word of our God shall stand for ever” ( Isa. 40:8). Jeremiah says, “Is not My Word as fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?” ( Jer. 23: 29).
Which of the greatest writers of secular literature, could have attached a “Thus saith the Lord” to their subject matter? And in the realm of religious literatue, if the greatest theologians had ventured to make such a declaration, it would have discredited them, and the value of their writings immediately!
The authority displayed by the writers of Scripture is absolutely unique. The Apostle Paul after declaring the impossibility for the subjects of Divine revelation to be discoverable by natural powers, and the necessity for the operation of the Spirit of God in making them known, says:
“Which things also we speak, NOT in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, BUT which the Holy Spirit teacheth” ( I Cor. 2: 13).
So that the apostle’s writings are not merely an expression of his views, they consist of “words which the Spirit teacheth.” They come, therefore, with the same Divine authority as the words of Christ Himself. And this is the fulfillment of the promise given by Christ to His disciples:
“Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He shall guide you into ALL the truth; for He shall not speak from Himself; but what things soever He shall hear, these shall He speak” ( John 16: 13).
The inspiration of the human genius is simply a natural qualification. However, the writers of Scripture were endued with the power of God, the Spirit of God, so acting that while the intelligent faculties and the character and the dispositions of the writers were brought into co-operation, imparting their individuual style to their writings, yet, the words they used, though in a sense their own, they were nevertheless, “God-breathed” ‘theopneustos’. Their language was thus fitted by Him for His own purposes. The personality of the writers was not indeed eliminated, nor was their individual consciousness suspended, BUT, all was under the control of the Holy Spirit.
Since it is the Scriptures themselves that are ‘God-breathed’ inspiration, in that sense of the term , attaches to the very form of the statements that were given by God. In the communications of the thoughts of God, the phraseology employed cannot be divorced from the very essence and content of the sentiments expressed.
With the Lord and His apostles, the one court of appeal was what is written in the Scripture. Take, for instance, the first recorded utterance of the Lord Jesus Christ in reference to it. Jesus meets the attack of His adversary, Satan, by a thrice reapeated:
“It is WRITTEN,” each time quoting from the book of Deuteronomy ( Matt. 4: 4, 7, 10). Both Christ and Satan regarded the declaration of Scripture as providing an irrefutable authority, and reply to any challenge or suggestion. There was no question whatsoever on the part of either Christ or Satan, of the appeal from that absolute authority, God’ Word!
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 4:49 PM
Ready Done
Thanks for giving me at least a bare pass.
Take your pick from these definitions of spirit. Hope this is comprehensive enough.
The English word “spirit” has many differing meanings and connotations, but commonly refers to a supernatural being or essence — transcendent and therefore metaphysical in its nature: the Concise Oxford Dictionary defines it as “the non-physical part of a person”.
For many people, however, spirit, like soul, forms a natural part of a being: such people may identify spirit with mind, or with consciousness, or with the brain.
The English word “spirit” comes from the Latin spiritus, meaning “breath”, from spirare to blow, breathe but also “soul, courage, vigor).
In the Vulgate, the Latin word translates Greek (pneuma) and the Hebrew ruah), as opposed to Latin anima, translating Greek psykhē.
The distinction between soul and spirit developed in Judeo-Christian terminology (thus we find Greek psykhe as opposed to pneuma, Latin anima as opposed to spiritus, Hebrew ruach as opposed to neshama or nephesh; in Hebrew neshama comes from the root NShM or “breath”).
1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2: a supernatural being or essence: as acapitalized : HOLY SPIRIT
b: SOUL 2a
c: an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible ; specifically : GHOST 2
d: a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
3: temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated
4: the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
5 a: the activating or essential principle influencing a person b: an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : MOOD
6 a: a special attitude or frame of mind b: the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something
7: a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person’s actions
8: a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9: a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness
10 a: DISTILLATE 1: as (1): the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash —often used in plural (2): any of various volatile liquids obtained by distillation or cracking (as of petroleum, shale, or wood) —often used in plural b: a usually volatile organic solvent (as an alcohol, ester, or hydrocarbon)
11 a: prevailing tone or tendency b: general intent or real meaning
12: an alcoholic solution of a volatile substance
13: enthusiastic loyalty
Zoe // June 18, 2009 at 7:19 PM
Like any serious academic discipline, Medicine, Law, Physics, et al, they all require qualified interpreters, in order to explain, what was written, and invariably, this requires a number of different tools to do the job properly.
Biblical Interpretation is no different in principle, except that it requires not just human intellect, but, the help of the original author Himself, the Holy Spirit, and without Him, it simply is not possible understand the Word of God, that He Inspired.
Interpretation:
The correct reproduction of the thoughts of another (either a writer or speaker), usually from a different language, has been called interpretation. When applied to the Bible, interpretation has been called hermeneutics, a term occurring in a work of J.C. Dannhaur in the 17th Century. (from the Gr. verb ‘hermeneuin’ meaning ‘to express, ‘to explain’ ‘to translate’ and ‘to interpret”).
Biblical Interpretation:
Interpretation has as its goal the discovery of the thought processes and the meaning of the writer, or writers, of the books of the Bible. The ultimate design is to convey that meaning to contemporary persons. The material of the Bible, written between 2,000 and 3,500 years ago, poses a special problem for the modern interpreter, because it was formulated in environments and in languages considerably different from those that prevail in our modern world.
A. Nature.
Biblical interpretation has a dual nature: (1) the problem of language, and (2) the theological significance of the material. The discovery of the true meaning of all words and terms in any Biblical passage is the place where interpretation begins. This is essentially an interpretation of language. It embraces such considerations as definition of words, contextual analysis, literary types and forms, historical analogy, and syntactical distinctives. In addition, Biblical material is of such a nature as to demand special consideration. The doctrine of inspiration holds the Biblical interpreter to a proper regard for the fudamental character of Scripture. It demands recognition of the theological significance of Scripture, resting upon the revelation of God, that is not found in any other literature. The extraordinary character of Scripture, transcends the usual and ordinary analysis of non-Biblical materials.
But, there are legitimate presuppositions to be brought to the Scripture that cannot be brought to other books. Because, the Bible has Almighty God as its ultimate author, it must be expected that its contents will bear true and faithful relation to that fact. The Scripture itself offers the best insight into how it is to be interpreted – in light of its inspired character. To one who objects that it is illigitimate to bring a presupposition to the Bible as an interpreter, it is to be said, that in the nature of things, every interpreter cames with a presupposition.
B. Means.
The evangelical interpreter dares not neglect history in any of its relation to the problem of setting out the true meaning of a Biblical text. Indeed, the knowledge of history strengthens the hand of the interpreter who accepts the ultimate authorship of Almighty God in history. Every means of the historical-critical method of interpretation should claim his attention; textual criticism. literary criticism, comparative religion criticism, historical criticism, etc. Beyond all of this, however, the Holy Spirit is to be acknowledged as the only infallible interpreter of God’s Word. The mind of the Lord as given the interpreter through the ministry of the Spirit is an absolute necessity for the interpretation of Scripture. The Bible is not only a special and unique book, but its faithful interpreter must also be one of God’s faithfully, redeemed, sons/daughters as well.
Bush Tea // June 18, 2009 at 7:47 PM
@GP
I find it amazing that you can so easily ascribe motives to persons just like that- and then brag about ignoring them, or accuse them of writing cow shit.
….how do you know that these persons are not genuinely confused and seeking knowledge and guidance?
…since you yourself admit to not having answers to fundamental questions (such as why God would allow the devil to cause such cruelty etc) why have you so little tolerance for those who question some of your positions?
I really admire your ability to profess such expertise in your faith even when you seem unable to discuss concepts beyond quoting bible verses or referencing the interpretations of other writers.
For example, Ready-Done asked you a simple question “You saying god the all creator did not make sin? or he didn’t know that man would have turn to sin?
….and your answer is to listen to one Adrian Rogers?!?!
Man what Adrian Rogers what?!?
Man GP, when you finally get around to seeking, Bush Tea will provide all the answers that you need…
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 8:40 PM
Bush Tea
I find it amazing that you are amazed that I should have the right to ignore anyone who obviously think they can bait me into answering them in a way that will discredit me.
If I respond as Zoe does it would be a crime (although he has the example of Paul and Jesus to go by). If I chose to ignore them (which is my right) it is still a crime. I don’t need to be pally pally with those who seek to discredit me or disrespect me. And I do still have the right to ignore such.
Fortunately for me, God is my judge and not you. I have not accused anyone of writing bovine excrement on this thread, and you know that. I just ignore such, and I notice that others do too!
I don’t see you chastising those who “ascribe motives to me just like that—just as you are currently doing” and as they do. But there seems to be a feeling that if you love the Word and try to share it, or if you are a Christian THAT YOU ARE A FOOL and that you ought to be the target of every one who seek to turn you into a whipping boy!
If you refuse to stoop to that low level you are wrong too? I doubt it?
.
Re ….how do you know that these persons are not genuinely confused and seeking knowledge and guidance?
Again, I am not half as stupid as you think.
Re …since you yourself admit to not having answers to fundamental questions (such as why God would allow the devil to cause such cruelty etc)
FYI I do not consider this to be a fundamental question. And in case you didn’t know. Good teachers DO NOT ANSWER ALL THEIR STUDENTS QUESTIONS.
Good teachers often refer their students to sources where hopefully, the student can discover answers for themselves…..or they let them wait until the answers come up when they deem it appropriate to reveal the answers.
Good teachers may goive an incorrect answer also to see if the classe is listening or attending (or in this case reading.)
I didnt study for a Masters in Christian Education for you to teach me how to teach BT!.
I have demonstrated a great deal of tolerance on these threads.
I have never professed to be an expert in any thing either here, there or anywhere. And in case you don’t understand it yet, those of us who believe that the Bible is the SOLE AUTHORITY FOR FAITH AND PRACTICE quote bible verses or/and reference the interpretations of other writers. This is done also in Medicine and by TRUE SCHOLARS IN ANY DISCIPLINE!
If I wanted to speak to you about animal location, I would refer you to HOW ANIMALS MOVE by Sr VB Wigglesworth. If I wanted to speak to you about HEPATIC DISEASES, I would refer you to read Dame Sheila Sherlock. When BIBLE STUDENTS speak about Bible they refer to the works of those authors known to have spent years STUDYING THE WORD.
Re For example, Ready-Done asked you a simple question “You saying god the all creator did not make sin? or he didn’t know that man would have turn to sin?
….and your answer is to listen to one Adrian Rogers?!?! Man what Adrian Rogers what?!?
Here you are guilty of the same thing for which you begun to accuse me.
You do not know why I asked him to listen to Adrian Rogers Do you? Well see above. Any way I like how Adrian outlines the scripture and how he teaches the Word. Part of discipling folk is to expose them to good teachers. It has worked for countless others. And I doubt very much Bush Tea that you can teach me how to disciple any one, at this stage of my life..
I teach how I want to teach, and Id be damned if you will teach me how to BT.
Re Man GP, when you finally get around to seeking, Bush Tea will provide all the answers that you need… I SINCERELY DOUBT THAT VERY MUCH.
There are several well trained scholars to whom I have been going and to whom will go before I descend to that level BT, with all due respect. I have not seen any of your books in any reputable book store anyway BT.
Bush Tea // June 18, 2009 at 9:07 PM
Man GP you too sweet!! You have HC written all over you…. but that’s OK. LOL.
Actually what I am talking about is attitude…. You come across as quite arrogant (in a different way to Zoe, but equally so) -and unnecessarily so.
If Bush Tea or anyone else appear to be clearly seeking to ridicule you, you can just say so and move on.
My problem with you stems from the fact that I LIKE you, sympathize with a lot of what you say, recognize that you are bright, and yet I find you overly aggressive when challenged.
….just honest feedback.
WRT teachers not giving all the answers – I think that you miss my point. I agree with you 100%. One does not casually throw pearls to swine…
However, in the interest of one’s OWN faith, after years of post graduate study, I would think that such issues would be easily explained… but obviously I am wrong.
Georgie Porgie // June 18, 2009 at 10:09 PM
Yes Bush Tea
Actually I am a very simple man who loves to talk nonsense and laugh loud and long. Just ask my sons, and those who know me well. I however, do not suffer fools gladly either!
And FYI attending HC was never a big thing for me, as I knew that I deserved to go there on merit! I did not consider it a thing to be greatly desired. It was thrust upon me via a transfer from Boys Foundation, where I was quite happy, and might very well have done better! HC is NOT for everyone, even the brightest boys and girls in our nation ! I know that well.
And if you think I am arrogant that’s cool too. I just wonder “Who made thee a prince and a judge over me….or Zoe? I respect Zoe greatly. HE KNOWS THE WORD & CAN DIVIDE IT WELL.
I am sure that we do not agree on every single thing. All Bible teachers don’t. But you don’t see us challenging each other about pithy puerile points!
And if there are any one on these Bible threads that can challenge anyone on the Word it would be the two of us. And you can call that arrogance! But it is simply THE TRUTH!
I have never heard you tell others who are really pompous and arrogant and palpably ignorant of the Word and “unnecessarily so” that they portray these characteristics; even as they contribute very little to these discussions, and deliver a barrage of junk as they seek to be controversial or adversarial or attract attention thereby.
Seekers ask questions; not talk shit!
I do not share your view that I am arrogant or aggressive when challenged. And I wonder why you or any one else think that I need to be challenged. I don’t challenge anyone here. I don’t come here to challenge anyone or be challenged. I come here to be informed or entertained. I try to answer as many questions as I can as honestly as I can and to the best of my knowledge and ability on the