Submitted by Yardbroom
An article in the Nation News by Wade Gibbons published 6-29-2009 attributed the following comments to Mr Inniss: “Minister of Health Donvile Inniss disclosed that public health facilities were under mounting pressure as a result of having to deal with the high number of undocumented immigrants. However, he told the Daily Nation that Government would not change its policy of not seeking to know people’s immigrant status before providing them with health care”. The Prime Minister David Thompson had previously made the Government’s position, direction and focus abundantly clear in an interview.
In the many articles now prevalent in the Guyanese Press and other areas, it is unlikely that this report will be given “top billing”. The reason being it does not demonise the Barbados Government enough, and has not got the illegal immigrant being preyed upon component, to wet the appetites of some who denigrate us from abroad. However, facts accurately presented will always reduce the lies and deceit now pedalled into convulsions.
I was pleased with the measured tone used by Minister Donvile Inniss; no “vitriolic exhibitionism” as recently used by a “supposed West Indian heavyweight”, but those words he – the supposed heavyweight – used…will come back to haunt him. A knight errant – in days past – often wandered and sought deeds of courage and chivalry to perform; now we have the “wandering” but alas nothing else with which to engage. The knighted one tried to obfuscate on the ground reality by introducing terminology synonymous with people been burned out of their homes; children being wrenched apart from their mothers and taken away in the night, leaving behind the smouldering embers of their dwellings, and fathers never seen again, having been taken to secluded places.
It is so sad that in a moment of “injudicious mouthings” he allowed an emotional outburst to blemish his undoubted achievements…keep your composure when others lose theirs, it sets you apart from the pack, and justifies your position of eminence. I will not repeat the words he used here, as that would give them a new burst of life; neither will I defile this submission for it later to be “cleansed”…we are a tolerant people.
When the morning mist has been cleared from this illegal immigration debate and the vitriol spewed at us Barbadians has melted like snow flakes in a desert sun; Barbados will be stronger, more united and a cohesive society. For the brothers and sisters who misguidedly sought temporary succour outside our encampment, you are still our own. To the “legal Guyanese” who remain, you will still be our friends and be most welcome, but we have drawn a line in the sand to distinguish between common sense and folly.
Barbados is not a bandit country where the Laws can be disregarded. In all successful countries when a crisis looms a leader of worth steps forward to lead; throughout the ages that is what has separated the successful from the rest…the Caribbean is no different. When the question is asked why has Barbados been so successful in comparison with some of our Caribbean brothers…that is the reason. In due course other Caribbean leaders will also make a principled stand on illegal immigrants and the Prime Minister of Guyana Barat Jagdeo will be forced to remove the heavy carapace from the backs of “all” his people; instead of expecting member states of CARICOM to be heavily burdened because of his incompetence.















124 responses so far ↓
Anonymous // July 5, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Sorry Yardbroom,
All that has come to nought with the latest thompson sell-out with allowing maids and baby sitters freedom from guyana and elsewhere to enter barbados now and their husbands and children and grand parents and stay and work along with their unemployed husbands, first for 6 months and then for as long as they like.
Today we sealed our fate,for the Barbados as we know it.
David thompson,not owen arthur did that.
Anonymous // July 5, 2009 at 2:35 PM
There will be no longer any need to deport illegal persons becuase the categories have opened up and everyone will be able to get in on now.
David // July 5, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Based on the news report when Sir Shridath was asked about his comment to the media referring to ethnic cleansing he cited the Nation editorial as his source. His utterance proves two things 1) people are reading the misinformed stuff the Nation newspaper is publishing and affirms the importance of responsible journalismand 2) a man of Sir Shridath’s stature would/should understand the weight of his words i.e.ethnic cleansing based on a Nation/newspaper report is unacceptable.
Yardbroom // July 5, 2009 at 4:06 PM
” What ardently I wished, I long believed,
And, disappointed still, was still deceived.
By expectation every day beguiled,
Dupe of to-morrow even from a child”.
Cowper
Anonymous // July 5, 2009 at 4:17 PM
Yardbroom
Was that bit of prose for me Anon who responded above?
Are you saying that you too are deceived?
A pall has fallen over this country just when we were starting to get a glimmer of hope that our prime minister was listening to us.
Yardbroom // July 5, 2009 at 4:28 PM
Hi Anonymous,
It is best sometimes to reflect, but if I am honest as I “try” always to be; I am not the man today as I was yesterday…but that is life.
Yardbroom
David // July 5, 2009 at 4:50 PM
Tonight’s CBC TV People’s Business now takes on importance to explain the latest issues. We assume the program is live.
Anonymous // July 5, 2009 at 5:21 PM
I would like to know why is Sir Shridath camping out in Barbados? We have beautiful homes in Guyana, so why. Very strange indeed!
Ruel Daniels // July 5, 2009 at 5:50 PM
Yardbroom
Barbados is not a bandit country where the Laws can be disregarded. In all successful countries when a crisis looms a leader of worth steps forward to lead; throughout the ages that is what has separated the successful from the rest…the Caribbean is no different. When the question is asked why has Barbados been so successful in comparison with some of our Caribbean brothers…that is the reason. In due course other Caribbean leaders will also make a principled stand on illegal immigrants and the Prime Minister of Guyana Barat Jagdeo will be forced to remove the heavy carapace from the backs of “all” his people; instead of expecting member states of CARICOM to be heavily burdened because of his incompetence.
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The problem is that Guyana under the PPP has become a bandit country in which the connected can flout laws with impunity. Guyana does lack a leader of worth at its helm capable of stepping to the fore and speaking to the masses from a position of moral and ethical rectitude.
What I find most ironical about this brouhahah, is that although Caribbean Leaders continue to maintain silence on what is transpiring in Guyana under the claim that they are unwilling to interfere in the domestic affairs of a sovereign nation, they are not restrained by such lofty considerations when it comes to the Bajan immigration issue. They are allowing an ethnic supremacist who would not give them another glance if they were not in the political positions they were, to move them around like so many pieces on a chess board. Yes, black people in the Commonwealth Caribbean need to hang their heads in shame and embarrassment at this obsequious capitulation of their leaders before the feet of an ethnic supremacist. God have mercy upon us.
Anonymous // July 5, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Ruel, But put aside the racial attitudes of the Guyanese East Indians, the PPP and the borat jagdeo, the argument here is that Barbados is a 166 square mile nation with limited resources, and thus this inflow of all these (illegal)immigrants from Guyana compromises the standard of living of Barbadians.
Why is this so difficult for the PPP leader of Guyana to understand? This leads me to think that that the PPP leader of Guyana is of low intelligence. I am also absolutely amazed at how Sir Ramphal connects this removal of illegal immigrants from Barbados to ethnic cleansing. The crisis here is brought on by a racist and inept government in Guyana, thus the influx of Guyanese into Barbados, and the remedy here is for Barbados to deport them, be it to Guyana or country of choice.
sylvan // July 5, 2009 at 7:53 PM
tell sonny to kiss his ass. since barbados is practising ‘ethic cleansing’ as stabroek news said he said, he should do the right thing and leave barbados.
Anonymous // July 5, 2009 at 9:04 PM
Sylvan, It is ironic that they would choose to link the deportation of illegal Guyanese from Barbados with ethnic cleansing. This should give you an insight into the failed state of Guyana where things are forever bad, so survival is tied to the absolute of allowing Guyanese to leave for other shores. The rulers of Guyana have no intention of making Guyana a better place for Guyanese. Their only desire is to have East Indians rule the country.
David // July 5, 2009 at 9:12 PM
Minister McClean was diplomatically scathing in her attack directed at Sir Shridath and Compton Bourne by saying they should have known better!
sylvan // July 5, 2009 at 9:39 PM
i repeat. compton bourne should be removed as president of CDB for interfering in the politics of barbados. patriotic bajan bloggers, demand that bourne is given his marching orders. we have had enough from these ungrateful strangers in our gates like rickey singh.
Jay // July 6, 2009 at 1:11 AM
Anonymous said:
Ruel, But put aside the racial attitudes of the Guyanese East Indians, the PPP and the borat jagdeo, the argument here is that Barbados is a 166 square mile nation with limited resources, and thus this inflow of all these (illegal)immigrants from Guyana compromises the standard of living of Barbadians.
———————————-
I don’t think we should allow racism into Barbados at all.I don’t care if it is Indo or Afro Guyanese even though I understand the country’s plight,but I am of the opinion that only their countrymen can solve their own problems/issues.Barbados has come too far & sacrificed too much in order to sacrifice its advancement for another country,Treaty or NO treaty.
If there was a referendum on CSME today.I think we all know how that vote would turn out.Now that Mr. Thompson has agreed to the “Domestic” portion of CSME it should be scrapped altogether.Those with pending skilled applications with 2 or 4 year degrees & a job offer should be given Barbados permanent residency as a consolation.
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 4:10 AM
Jay you talking bare crap.
Give them permanent residency as a consolation.
You understand the implications of what you are saying?
livinginbarbados // July 6, 2009 at 5:10 AM
@Yardbroom
“However, facts accurately presented will always reduce the lies and deceit now pedalled into convulsions.”
I will take no issue with you on Minister Inniss’ tone. Likewise, I will take no issue with you that Sir. S. would have been well advised to choose other terms (and “intimations”, as he should have known, would get lost).
But I will take issue that we are getting facts accurately presented. I will try to listen again to Minister McLean’s full commentary on CBC last night. But, as she did when speaking on Brass Tacks a few Sundays ago, she provided barely a fact that has bearing and gives sense to the policy on illegal immigrants. This time, when asked about the numbers and to substantiate claims of pressure on resources etc., she replied to the effect that had she known that she would be asked such details she would have come prepared. Peter Wickham contended that illegal immigrants should not have access to free medical treatment or schooling, and if they were using private sources then they were paying for what they got. The Minister came back to say that the school ID does not have a picture and there are stories of a ‘trade’ in ID.
Mr. Wickham asked about attacking the demand side of the problem (renters and employers). The Minister said there were fines that could be applied. I take that to mean that no action has been taken on these ‘facilitators’ of illegal immigration.
I beg you, admittedly this is not her portfolio, but she and the rest of the government I presume agreed that she would be the spokesperson on the matter. The nearest ‘fact’ that she came with was a story about how dental records had caught an illegal immigrant’s child trying to get treatment, and her saying that this was not isolated.
She repeated the lament that the Immigration Department had been asked for data that disaggregate so that the full picture on immigration can be analysed (and we can go back to the recent AG report on the parlous management information system). But again, the Minister wants us to accept that this very important policy (and this does not touch its merit) is underpinned by substance but cannot give any that will hold it up.
The picture I get is that the government is standing ‘naked’ on the real situation. I get an image of a civil service that cannot do Ministers’ bidding and give them information with which to make decisions: that is either a form of insubordination, or a reflection of some deep inefficiencies.
If I missed the salient facts, then perhaps you or someone else can repeat them for us all.
The Minister also pointed out again that the Immigration Department is working at a snail’s pace, recalling (illegal) immigration-related files that were ‘in process’ in November (when she left the portfolio) but are still pending, more than 6 months after.
I fail to accept that since May the government spokesmen are still walking around ‘unprepared’, and I find it disingenuous that Minister McLean, having been asked certain types of questions on the issue on the radio weeks ago is still going into a broadcast studio unprepared to answer these questions.
I am in no sense partisan or allied to any side, but good government is not what I am seeing and that has serious implications. Nor do I accept that asking for clear factual information is some sort of distraction. Whether you like Clyde Mascoll or not, his arithmetic seems sound to me (see Nation article last week), and the figures on this issue don’t add up.
The concerns about which people are getting agitated need to be seen for what they really are. Enough anecdotes, already.
livinginbarbados // July 6, 2009 at 5:16 AM
CLARIFICATION: When I wrote “I find it disingenuous that Minister McLean, having been asked certain types of questions on the issue on the radio weeks ago is still going into a broadcast studio unprepared to answer these questions,” unprepared meant willing but not able, not in any sense that she did not want to answer.
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 6:05 AM
Yardbroom’s supercilious obsequiousness with regard to David Thompson is quite amazing.
The Scout // July 6, 2009 at 6:48 AM
At the end of this Heads of Government Conference and the immigration debate, I’m still at a loss at what Barbados’ position on illegal immigrants. Should an employer be allowed to apply for a work permit for a non-bajan without first advertising for that position in the local newspaper? Also, the qualifications asked for in the job ads should match the job. E.G. don’t advertise that you want some-one with straight hair to be a nanny.
livinginbarbados // July 6, 2009 at 6:57 AM
@Sylvan July 5, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Vilification is no substitute for accurate denigration.
Cite correctly. The reports never included the word ‘practising’ but Sir S. was reported to have talked about “intimations of…”. To you the difference may be moot.
Should I hold you to what you wrote with “ETHIC (sic) cleansing” or change it to what I want it to be?
David // July 6, 2009 at 7:09 AM
@LIB
Don’t you think you are being lured by semantics? Even Sir S has recanted.
BU agrees that the many issues arising from the immigration matter need to be ring-fenced and responded to in a structured way. Minister McClean would have clarified some issues to her credit but the interview made it difficult to determine the drivers of the new policy, the project managment to implement the policy as the key things which stick out, others exist.
livinginbarbados // July 6, 2009 at 7:13 AM
@Sylvan July 5, 2009 at 9:39 pm
“compton bourne should be removed as president of CDB”
David Thompson is Barbados’ Governor to the CDB and he and his Director can voice their complaints to the Board, who will then decide whether Mr. Bourne overstepped his mandate and/or acted in contravention of the rules of CDB.
livinginbarbados // July 6, 2009 at 7:26 AM
@David
“Don’t you think you are being lured by semantics? Even Sir S has recanted.”
I did not hear the David Ellis interview with Sir S. but I did not hear him recant, but try to indicate that he was guided to his comment by an editorial in The Nation (I’m not sure what words he read to lead him where he went). Yes, it is semantics (meaning the meaning of words).
Your view of Sen. McLean, as I said before, is generous. I repeat that the government is not, and should not be, hostage to a radio or TV program to get out its message–worse still on the state-controlled broadcaster. Any Minister given the responsibility or the PM could have made, and still can make, a clear statement laying out the policy and its support. If the to-be-announced immigration policy statement, due August, has no clear underpinning, what do you believe will be guiding the policy?
Sen. McLean criticized the media for not doing its research on the lurid claims, but look what the media got and gets when asking her some simple questions.
sylvan // July 6, 2009 at 8:20 AM
sonny, compton bourne, musty norman faria, rickey singh, …. you all living in barbados in comfort but tearing down barbados to make it look bad on the outside because like you all want guyanese to do as they like bout here. no way. go home to your paradise guyana. we no longer want you here.
thoughtful // July 6, 2009 at 9:26 AM
@Living in Barbados- you are so on. My, if people would be reasonable and think like you
PISS OFF // July 6, 2009 at 10:00 AM
Sen Mc Clean did a wonderful job last night,as I listen mostly Guyanese called in,and it is clear the most of them came here for a vacation and never left,but If all of these Guyanese have rights ,where are the rights of the Barbadiian Citizen??????????.i totally agree with Sen McClean 1+1 =2,for everyone of them that are documented ,there are about 100 that are not.This country is only 166 square miles ,Trinidad is sending them home by the plane loads,but every one is focusing on Barbados.
I repeat sent them home.!!
The Scout // July 6, 2009 at 10:20 AM
I recognised, the softening of the P.M earlier and that began to bother me. Now I’m really worried with a crack which appears has the potential of becoming a gaping hole. This nanny thing is room for the mass influx of guyanese to continue. I’m beginning to lose confidence in our leaders both B and D. Who can we turn to? from the frying pan into the fire? we’re in trouble. Why should a bajan have to compete with non-bajans for simple jobs in Barbados? Check the stores in B’town and see how many non-bajans are working in jobs that bajans are told “no vacanies.” The volcano is going to blow soon, I hope the D.E.M is prepared to handle this
sylvan // July 6, 2009 at 10:29 AM
we want these illegal guyanese out of barbados. they are a nuisance and messing up our country. they come here, tell lies to immigration when they say they come for a vacation, then look for work and to take away somebody’s husband or man which the women do, and stay. these people break our laws and you telling me they have rights. their asses should be tossed in jail. and when they get by the bus stand and had too much to drink, they say the nastiest about bajans. we had enough of this shit. send them back to guyana. bajan women must see to it. call in immigration on them, they are breaking the peace of your home and taking away the fathers of your children.
The Scout // July 6, 2009 at 10:31 AM
As some-one who experienced hurricane Janet in 1955, I think the only way out for Barbados is for the country to experience a hurricane and it would level the playing field. These non-nationals would not want to come and most of the illegals would get out or try getting out. Bajans can weather the hardship and overcome the difficulties. We have reached our pinnicle and it is now for us bajans to reconstruct this country for our offspring . It will call for some sacrifices, even of life or limb but if this is what it takes, I am willing to do it. My Dad would have done it for me, I’m willing to do it for my children
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 11:24 AM
Mr. Thompson you are a FRAUD; how the hell can you give these people a ’scam line’ to enter Barbados.
So you know that persons can now claim that they have a old sick mother and lo and behold they need someone to help out and then these women bring in alllll their children and we STILL REMAIN in trouble!
WHAT ARE YOU DOING/??????????
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 11:26 AM
LIB is on VOB
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 11:36 AM
Is this just Public Relations Mr. Thompson!!!!!!!
Well it is poor pist poor!
Jack Bowman // July 6, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Can somebody tell me, tell all of us, how many illegal immigrants are in Barbados? Please be precise and please give at least one reliable source. Please indicate how many of them are working (and therefore contributing to the economy) and how many are dependent or destitute (and therefore a drag on resources).
In fact, let’s get precise. Let’s do a little close-text reading. To re-quote the statement cited by the original poster on this thread: “Minister of Health Donville Inniss disclosed that public health facilities were under mounting pressure as a result of having to deal with the high number of undocumented immigrants.”
First, Minister Inniss didn’t “disclose” anything. He made a statement. There’s a big difference. He didn’t reveal a fact; he simply made an assertion. Second, what was his assertion? It was that public health facilities have to deal with a “high number of undocumented immigrants.” What’s “high”? Fifty thousand? A hundred thousand? Half a million? His assertion is fact-free, which makes it pointless.
Quoting again the original poster on the thread: “facts accurately presented will always reduce the lies and deceit now pedalled into convulsions.”
That’s probably true, which is why it is essential to have some facts accurately presented and analyzed with forensic precision—rather than having to wade through yet another pool of tortuous mixed metaphors (“melted like snow flakes in a desert sun”, to give just one example).
And to take a random sample of some other contributions to this thread …
1. “People are reading the misinformed stuff the Nation newspaper is publishing.” Partly correct. The Nation is not publishing information. Neither is it publishing misinformation. It isn’t telling us any facts at all. It’s simply relaying what officials say and what the foreign press says. It isn’t telling us how many illegal immigrants are in Barbados. NOBODY is telling us that. This is a crucial point.
2. “This inflow of all these (illegal) immigrants from Guyana compromises the standard of living of Barbadians.” How? To answer that question you need to have a rough idea of how many of them there are. And you need to know how many of them are working. You need to know how much money they’re putting into the local economy by buying goods and services (in a recession spurred largely by a contraction in demand for stuff, this is a fairly crucial consideration). You need to have some idea of the extent to which they’re diverting resources from the education and healthcare systems. And to know that, you need to know how many there are and how many are working.
3. “I am of the opinion that only their [Guyanese] countrymen can solve their own problems/issues.” I completely disagree. If Guyana didn’t receive international aid (just as Barbados does, in the form of grants and concessional lending on very favourable terms) it could become a little Caribbean Somalia. Please accept an opinion from someone who knows: you definitely don’t want Somalia on your doorstep.
4. “BU agrees that the many issues arising from the immigration matter need to be ring-fenced and responded to in a structured way.” That doesn’t mean anything. In the present context, it’s probably not a good idea to discuss complicated matters in a bewildering mix of development-speak and business-speak.
5. “For everyone of them that are documented, there are about 100 that are not.” If you know that to be a fact, you would be doing a great service to this country and to the Caribbean region in general if you could give us a reliable source of that data. Then we could have an actual discussion, one based on a clear-headed cost-benefit analysis.
To reiterate the question I made at the beginning: Can somebody tell me, tell all of us, how many illegal immigrants are in Barbados? Please be precise and please give at least one reliable source.
Somebody quoted Will Cowper. I suggest it’s better to reflect on the words of Ludwig Wittgenstein: “Whereof we do not know, thereof we should not speak.”
If you have real and reliable numbers on immigration into Barbados, please share them. If you don’t have facts but you have strong opinions anyway, I can understand why there is so much interest in improving this country’s education system.
Best wishes to all.
y. paris // July 6, 2009 at 11:39 AM
DEPORT THEM NOW!!!
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Living in barbados
As is his wont,talk a lot of rehashed shite.
David ellis eventually had to hustle him off the air because he kept rambling on and on.
David // July 6, 2009 at 12:38 PM
@Jack Bowman
We all agree that we need some numbers and we hope that these will be forthcoming when the policy is released. In the meantime Barbadian know for example we have examples of increase in squating on Zone 1 lands and there also the slum housing which has developed.
Themis // July 6, 2009 at 1:18 PM
So, Anonymous @11:24, what nationality will these employers be? And David, do you think this government is basing its policy on numbers? And if not, then what?
Jack Bowman // July 6, 2009 at 1:58 PM
@ David.
Quoting David: “We all agree that we need some numbers and we hope that these will be forthcoming when the policy is released.”
No. In a grown-up country, you don’t get the numbers after the policy is implemented. Precisely the contrary is true: you base the policy on the numbers.
You don’t just dream up a policy and then try to make the facts fit it. You look at the facts and on that basis you devise a policy. It’s the first, essential, fundamental rule of effective policy-making (for evidence, see the abomination of US policy in Iraq).
Personal anecdotes and limited observation are wholly and woefully inadequate as a basis for state policy-making.
Until ANYBODY involved in this discussion has some reliable numbers, the entire discussion is moot. Its only positive side is to reveal (as your blog reveals, in an admirable and endlessly fascinating manner) the utterly uninformed and rabid racism with which so many Bajans seem to be afflicted. Put the term “stinking Guyanese” into Google, and Barbados Underground comes out top of the search results. With the term “smelly Guyanese”, BU comes second in the search results.
I think you should be applauded for bringing this repellant racism into the light. I hope, for the sake of your soul and the good of Barbados, that such was your intention.
All best wishes to you and to all contributors,
Jack
David // July 6, 2009 at 2:29 PM
@Themis
We want to think that all the anecdotal evidence has been supported by empirical data but each time we listen to the PM or any from his team we get the impression they have some numbers but not in precise terms.
Jack Bowman // July 6, 2009 at 3:18 PM
@ David, quoting his reply to Themis:
“We want to think that all the anecdotal evidence has been supported by empirical data but each time we listen to the PM or any from his team we get the impression they have some numbers but not in precise terms.”
In other words, you have absolutely no idea about the numbers, do you? None at all. Nothing. Zero idea. Not even an educated guess. Absolutely nothing at all. Nada. Nix. Like me, like everybody on this island, you are utterly and completely ignorant of the facts.
But still, even being utterly ignorant of the facts, you allow a contributor on the blog you control to say this to an international public, some of whom might be potential tourists in Barbados: “Yes I support ethnic cleansing. Barbados must be cleanse [sic].” [Negroman on Barbados Underground, June 29, 2009 at 4:46 pm].
Your blog is read by people who want information about Barbados because they might come here as tourists.
Let me repeat the statement by “Negroman” that you internationally published: “Yes I support ethnic cleansing. Barbados must be cleanse [sic].”
Do you have a decent lawyer? Just asking.
Best wishes to you and to all contributors to your blog, which seems to include a disproportionate number of people who are without question indictable under international law for promoting racial hatred.
Jack Bowman // July 6, 2009 at 3:22 PM
Anyone interested in “Negroman’s” views on ethnic cleansing can find them here:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:nm8VbqI2FaIJ:bajan.wordpress.com/2009/06/27/responsibility-fairness-and-the-media-in-reporting-the-guyanese-illegal-immigrants-issue-in-barbados/+%22Barbados+must+be+cleanse%22&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 3:43 PM
Jack Bowman DEAL WITH THE GUYANESE ISSUES!
Guyanese have SAID AND DONE more awful things than Negro man has said on this blog!
Ask Roger Khan!
Or any other BLACK persons who are fleeing in droves from Guyana! Dont blame Negroman for being so passionate about the suffering of his black sisters and brothers!
I hate when persons like you all start to talk about statistics when bechrist REAL people in Guyana being exploited and victimised by their own Government!
Or perhaps you need statistics instead of the visual realities of these people!
You are pathetic and silly!
Statistics are the number of deaths and injustices of all Guyaneses because of the inept Government of the PPP!
Why has Jagdeo not been charged?
You are crying for the scalp of Negroman but dont have the balls to CHARGE JAGDEO for crimes against humanity!
Screw you and your kind!
Veritas // July 6, 2009 at 4:02 PM
All that has come to nought with the latest thompson sell-out with allowing maids and baby sitters freedom from guyana and elsewhere to enter barbados
*********
Anonymous, I wish you understood these things before you spouted. There was nothing about baby-sitters in what I read. And the reference was to household domestics with CVQ’s.
All of this was part of the managed migration exercise. I read it myself. So can you.
Negroman // July 6, 2009 at 4:21 PM
Jack Bowman
You Jackass Come and be the international cyber policeman and charge & arrest Negroman for stating his position on race issues. Jack Bowman you cannot scare me.Go & f–k yourself you little twerp .
Why don’t you condemn Sir Shridath Ramphal for brringing ethnic cleansing talk into this debate.After all it is the same Sir Shridath Ramphal who introduced the notion that Barbados was practising ethnic cleansing.
Should not the government of Barbados charge Sir Shridath Ramphal for alleging that ethnic cvleansing is one of the reason for the new immigration policy.?
Jack Bowman you are a pathetic ass and you and no one can change this Negroman views on the other ethnic groups in world.
Jack Bowman go and read many of the other blogs especially those blogs in Guyana operated by Indo-Guyanese and see the awful things that are said about Black Guyanese and there are even calls for many prominent Black Guyanese and Black people in general to be kill in Guyana.Go to those blogs and condemn and send the international cyber policemen to investigate those blogs.
I support the call by Sir Shridath Ramphal on ethnic cleansing.This country should control,the build up of any particular ethnic group outside the Black population of Barbados.Particular emphasis must be place on the Indo-Guyanese scums & the rat catcher/mango seller Indians & Pakistani.
Jack Bowman // July 6, 2009 at 4:23 PM
@ Anonymous,
1. You said: “Guyanese have SAID AND DONE more awful things than Negro man has said on this blog!”
Okay. Give me an example and give me a source. Otherwise your assertion is pointless and meaningless.
2. “Ask Roger Khan!” Please tell me who Mr. Khan is. Give me his telephone number. Then I will ask him. Otherwise your assertion is pointless and meaningless.
3. “I hate when persons like you all start to talk about statistics.” You mean facts? Would you prefer to deal in fantasy and delusion? Please provide a fact about immigration into Barbados. Any fact at all that you got from a reliable source.
4. “You are pathetic and silly!”
5. “Screw you and your kind!” I wish you all best luck in your life. I hope that you and your loved ones are always well, and that your family is always healthy and happy. If you have children, may your god bless them always.
Thanks for your contribution. All best wishes to you.
Jack
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 4:27 PM
Jack Bowman
Carry yuh arse back to BFP.
We know you post over there and are one of the persons who wanted BU taken off the side bar.
But you can’t keep away because nobody noticing BFP now,so you want attention.
If you don’t like what is on BU DON’T COME ,SIMPLE.
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 4:37 PM
@ Anonymous,
1. You said: “Guyanese have SAID AND DONE more awful things than Negro man has said on this blog!”
Okay. Give me an example and give me a source. Otherwise your assertion is pointless and meaningless.
___________________________
STARBREK NEWS YOU ASS!
Ask Roger Khan!” Please tell me who Mr. Khan is. Give me his telephone number. Then I will ask him. Otherwise your assertion is pointless and meaningless.
_________________________
YOU IDIOT IF YOU DONT KNOW WHO IS ROGER KHAN YOU AINT PART OF THE DISCUSSION WHERE YOU COME FROM DOH!
_______________________
“I hate when persons like you all start to talk about statistics.” You mean facts? Would you prefer to deal in fantasy and delusion? Please provide a fact about immigration into Barbados. Any fact at all that you got from a reliable source.
__________________________
Is it a delusion that there is RACISM IN FIJI, TRINIDAD AND GUYANA! Please spare me!
___________________________
You are pathetic and silly!”
_________________________
Chee thanks!
__________________________
5. “Screw you and your kind!” I wish you all best luck in your life. I hope that you and your loved ones are always well, and that your family is always healthy and happy. If you have children, may your god bless them always.
Thanks for your contribution. All best wishes to you.
Jack
_________________________
Bless the Indo Guyanese I dont need any of your sarcastic remarks!!!!!!
ASSSSSSSSS STUPSE!
Jack Bowman // July 6, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Quoting “Negroman”:
“You Jackass … Jack Bowman you cannot scare me.Go & f–k yourself you little twerp … Jack Bowman you are a pathetic ass and you and no one can change this … I support the call by Sir Shridath Ramphal on ethnic cleansing … Particular emphasis must be place [sic] on the Indo-Guyanese scums & the rat catcher/mango seller Indians & Pakistani.”
Nice reply … Sober. Measured. Well argued and beautifully written. A living testament to the values of Barbadian education and the values of a life well-lived. Almost gorgeous in its inchoate anger and its child-like resentment. A work of such beautiful witlessness and ignorance that I will not long forget it.
Dear “Negroman”: I give all my best wishes to you and to those you love. I don’t know what happened to you, what terrible trauma you suffered to make you so full of hate, but I do hope that you have a full and fulfilling life.
May your god go with you and bless you always, even unto the twelfth generation.
Jack Bowman // July 6, 2009 at 6:29 PM
@ Anonymous:
It might be easier for you to argue a case if you weren’t so utterly dickless as to call yourself “Anonymous”. Dig deep, you anonymous little man. Dig deep. Perhaps you can find a pair of tiny, shrivelled, comical little balls that give you the strength to argue in your own name. Until then, your opinions are as dickless as you.
Ruel Daniels // July 6, 2009 at 6:35 PM
Ruel, But put aside the racial attitudes of the Guyanese East Indians, the PPP and the borat jagdeo, the argument here is that Barbados is a 166 square mile nation with limited resources, and thus this inflow of all these (illegal)immigrants from Guyana compromises the standard of living of Barbadians.
Why is this so difficult for the PPP leader of Guyana to understand? This leads me to think that that the PPP leader of Guyana is of low intelligence. I am also absolutely amazed at how Sir Ramphal connects this removal of illegal immigrants from Barbados to ethnic cleansing. The crisis here is brought on by a racist and inept government in Guyana, thus the influx of Guyanese into Barbados, and the remedy here is for Barbados to deport them, be it to Guyana or country of choice.
###########################
I have already made that argument. If you follow my posts on this subject you would have seen where I juxtapositioned Guyana’s size and resources alongside that of barbados, and advanced the argument that Barbados should not be forced to pay the welfare consequence of Guyana’s inept regime.
There are islands in Guyana that are almost as large as Barbados. No sobretemperamented and objective analyst would take the attitudes we see on display from the lap dogs for whom self hatred has become a psychotropic substitute.
Imagine Shridath Ramphall refuse to go home and live under the regime he joins in insulting the nation that opens its arms to him. If Barbaods was Ceasar Ramphal would be Brutus.
Anonymous // July 6, 2009 at 6:45 PM
As a UK citizen of Bajan parentage, I’m alarmed at the news coming out of the Carribean – especially with regard to Barbados.
I will be visiting Barbados for the first time in 15 years in a couple of months; only than will I be truly informed as to what is going on over there.
On my last visit I was staggered with the complacency that greeted me. I was left with the impression that Bajans were “work shy”. For example vegetables and fruit were left rotting on the trees or on the ground or I was unable to find a decent level of service throughout the island; I will not mention those private buses!
I would ask my fellow Bajans whose ancestors shed their precious blood for this island to wake up, take reponsibility for your future and to demand immediate action from your government. Their’s no point blaming those immigrants or questioning their motives. If you want to reclaim your country, you will have to implore your government to start representing you. If you are united in your efforts than a change can be made.
I looked forward to living one day in the land where my ancestors were transported to. I have always believed that as a black man, Barbados was a safe haven where I could stand tall with my fellow brothers and sisters. I believe that dream may be dying. Is there another black country out there as successful as Barbados? Will this black mecca have to be ultimately shared with others who despise you?
The signs are not healthy; history screams the names of Kenya, Uganda, Trinidad, Guyana, etc who all slept walked there way into the abyss.
For the sake of your ancestors, yourself, your family and the future generations: please – WAKE UP!
PS – Will someone please tell me what are the advanatages of Barbados been a member of Caricom. Do we need to be a member of a club with so many dysfunctional players. After all if these were members of my family, I would probably of cut them adrift a longtime ago. Answers please.
X-man
Jay // July 6, 2009 at 7:16 PM
Anonymous said:
Jay you talking bare crap.
Give them permanent residency as a consolation.
You understand the implications of what you are saying?
————————————–
Actually yes I do.From my understanding those that are granted CSME skilled certificates have the equivilancy of a country’s permanent residency.
I am anti-ILLEGAL immigration,nothing more or less.I have nothing against Guyanese or whatever nationality as long as they follow the damn rules & am strongly for SKillED immigration.I don’t care where it comes from as long as they respect Barbados’ sovereignty,people & way of life !
I do not care for Guyana or its problems,but I do have quite a bit of concern for Barbados’ future,nothing more !
Jack Bowman // July 6, 2009 at 7:27 PM
Quoting “Anonymous”:
“Their’s no point blaming those immigrants …
“Who all slept walked there way into the abyss.”
Perhaps mostly what your homeland wants is someone who grasps the difference between “their” and “there”.
If you don’t grasp the difference, perhaps you should extend your very long visit to the UK. Clearly, you can’t say anything to young Bajans about grammar.
Adrian Hinds // July 6, 2009 at 7:43 PM
LIB could you tell us what you understood Shridath to have meant when he said …..not within our regional culture; still less are intimations of ‘ethnic cleansing’. ??
livinginbarbados // July 6, 2009 at 8:01 PM
@AH
We’ve been over this. My suggestion, honestly, is to ask him. I see the offending article is presented on Norman Girvan’s blog, http://www.normangirvan.info/category/caribbean-integration/sir-shridath-ramphal-caribbean-integration/, so you could even offer a comment there. I would see no problem in being direct. If he refuses to comment, then so be it.
David // July 6, 2009 at 8:06 PM
Shridath Ramphal was wrong. He freely admitted that he based his comments on a Nation article. This is a man who lives in Barbados and held the office of Commonwealth Secretary General. He could if he was genuine enough easily picked up his telephone and made a call before blabbering off. Barbadian are within their right to question his motive along with Compton Bourne.
sylvan // July 6, 2009 at 8:26 PM
i ain’t backing down. i want sonny ramphal out of barbados. i want compton bourne removed as president of the CDB and kicked out. these men offended us and tried to nasty the image of our country by their stupid statements and we have to make an example of them because they should know better. rickey singh also. if a bajan was in guyana and had made the statements these men did, the bajan would be put out. you have that in particular if he is black.
Adrian Hinds // July 6, 2009 at 9:31 PM
@LIB
WHEN SYLVAN said on;
July 5, 2009 at 7:53 pm
tell sonny to kiss his ass. since barbados is practising ‘ethic cleansing’ as stabroek news said he said, he should do the right thing and leave barbados.
————————
YOU SOUGHT TO CORRECT HIM WITH;
@Sylvan July 5, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Vilification is no substitute for accurate denigration.
Cite correctly. The reports never included the word ‘practising’ but Sir S. was reported to have talked about “intimations of…”. To you the difference may be moot.
Should I hold you to what you wrote with “ETHIC (sic) cleansing” or change it to what I want it to be?
———————————–
Still no understanding of what Shridath meant? Yet you understood Sylvan sufficiently to offer a correction???? Is it simply the words “practice” and “intimations” void of what they can mean to you?
livinginbarbados // July 7, 2009 at 2:09 AM
@Adrian Hinds // July 6, 2009 at 9:31 pm
I sought to correct the citation made by sylvan. A terrible habit, but there you have it.
I then asked sylvan if I should take the words he/she wrote or change them to what I want them to be. (I actually offered no correction.) sylvan did not reply. So be it.
I engaged the author directly, and he/she responded or not, as is his/her right.
I suggested you engage Sir S. directly rather than asking someone else to divine his meaning. I don’t know if you did that. It’s your choice.
Adrian Hinds // July 7, 2009 at 10:11 AM
There was a context to my asking you for your interpretation of what he said. If you did not seek to correct someone for incorrectly attributing words and meanings to Shridath I would not have bothered you. But duck all you want.
Sargeant // July 7, 2009 at 2:12 PM
AH
Good luck on getting LIB to comment on Ramphal’s statement. His response to me was the same i.e. that I should ask Ramphal.. I plan to do so when I see him at the next cocktail party in the environs of Sandy Lane.:-)
livinginbarbados // July 7, 2009 at 2:34 PM
@AH & Sargeant
I find it an odd exercise to try to press someone to interpret another person’s contentious remark. It’s a real damned if you do, damned if you don’t game. I, for one, am no paid political pundit, just someone with views and opinions that I am prepared to defend. (Let’s hope that does not lead to some asinine remark from a certain contributor.)
I’m not on any Sandy Lane cocktail circuit (my loss, I guess, so I will have to do some networking), but we could always try to arrange to have a breakfast with Sir S. near his home near the south coast.
AH, as I mentioned before, I will be in Boston later this week, the ball is in your court.
livinginbarbados // July 7, 2009 at 2:43 PM
@ Adrian Hinds // July 7, 2009 at 10:11 am
“If you did not seek to correct someone for incorrectly attributing words and meanings to Shridath” Accuracy is really important. Certain words used are contentious enough, but let’s attribute to him what he said. I would hope that is acceptable. I trust that you know the difference between the two verbs concerned, which to me is like chalk and cheese.
In the same way that we can deduce that ‘PUBIC convenience’ might actually have been mistakenly written instead of ‘PUBLIC convenience’, we cannot be sure, so one checks. And I repeat, the author did not respond to the probing, which bothers me not one jot.
Adrian Hinds // July 7, 2009 at 3:53 PM
Well can you apply your meaning to the two verbs and let us know what you thing he meant? you sandwich your comments with enough disclaimers to make certain that no thinks you are speaking on Shridath’s behalf.
What does your Boston Trip have to do with me? I thought i made very clear that I unlike the current Prime Minister of Barbados have no interest in meeting with Anti-Bajan individuals such as yourself?
livinginbarbados // July 7, 2009 at 4:14 PM
@AH
“Well can you apply your meaning to the two verbs and let us know what you thing he meant?” [NO. What little media training I did warned me that even the most innocent of expressions can get taken out of context and turned and twisted and it's then a devil of an effort to get back to what you meant. On my own statements, I will gladly exchange on their meanings. ]
“Anti-Bajan individuals such as yourself” [I fear, no regret, that this is the kind of remark that tells me that when a mind is closed, it is truly closed. But, you have your position, and appear comfortable with it. Over the past few months, I have started to make a matrix of remarks made by Barbadians, about their own country and its situation: not just any persons, but those who are deemed to be revered and patriotic. By your standard they are all turning out to be “Anti-Bajan Bajans”. They make very interesting reading, and it’s really hard to know how you for example really view your compatriots who make critical remarks about the country. It would seem, but I may be wrong, that you and some others are of the view that those who dare say anything critical about Barbados and Barbadians cannot possibly help us. For that reason, it’s interesting to see how David Thompson has been flipped from hero to goat in a few short days. Like a teacher who can only give good marks even on the worst of essays, you seem to want to nurture the bad as if it were the good. To me, that seems like a real dis-service, in the same way that some of your apparent compatriots think that to look smuggly at Jamaica’s smouldering social and economic ruins and argue that because that is so terrible they need not give a hoot about the tinderbox of similar social and economic disorder here is any solution.
Live a life surrounded by yes men/women and cowtowers and you will live a life surrounded by those fearful of telling you the truth. Much as I may not have liked the policies of now Dame Thatcher, her notion of “Don’t give me problems, give me solutions” is instructive, because it realises that most situations are imperfect but can be improved. But if you believe that all is perfect then of course you will never see what is to be fixed.
Love your country and all its people, as you should, but always do so with real honesty.
Adrian Hinds // July 7, 2009 at 5:13 PM
You offered to meet (Not clear to me for what purpose) I refuse. You seem to think that I couldn’t refuse your offer and you asked again. Even if you were David Ellis or Mia Mottley or some other bajan of whom you speak, I would decline any such offer. You can continue to atttempt a weak defence of you not being a yes man and that you have been critical where it was necessary, if that makes you feel better. But I will recall those comments that i first saw on your blog which to mind demonstrated more than your current explanation. My mind is far from close, to your words, and opinion, but my arms and hands are folded to you. Suffice it to say I am not of your calibre or kind, I am also but a mere plebe that knows not his place.
Sargeant // July 7, 2009 at 5:29 PM
LIB
Over the past few months, I have started to make a matrix of remarks made by Barbadians, about their own country and its situation
**************************************
1984 Here we come Big Brother is watching
I do hope that you use your matrix to produce accurate accounts and not the literary license to say “You get a lot of supposedly substantive arguments against this group for being ’smelly’, ‘musty’, ‘clannish’, ‘not like us’, ’scheming’, ‘wanting to take over’, etc”.
We have had this discussion about literary license before; when you substitute one or two commentators with the words “a lot”; someone who may not be current with the discussion will take your word at face value without any idea what “a lot” represents.
Also, your characterisation of what some people say about Jamaicans on the blog is misleading. People tend to generalise, pop off and disappear and their views don’t necessarily represent the position of the majority. The Jamaicans I know would be the first to tell you that their country has a great deal of problems, but they are fiercely patriotic and if Ramphal made the same statement about Jamaica he would be made to feel unwelcome. These Jamaicans tell me that Bajans are very docile (and these are only the females).
Parsing;Parsing;Parsing!
sylvan // July 7, 2009 at 5:41 PM
enough talk. strong action needed. tell those in power how you feel and that you want action
livinginbarbados // July 7, 2009 at 6:16 PM
@Sargeant
“1984 Here we come Big Brother is watching” [A tad paranoic? Is there some sense that you all believe that no one is taking note of what is written here? A bevvy of observations gathered from hither and yon, like squirrels chasing nuts. Look! Starbroek said this. Hear this! Man speaking on VOB...I am not the government, or police, or a particularly intersted observer of much that is written here, but who knows who amongst your own nation may be out there 'watching' and 'tracking'? We know that the moderator is, as he can identify those who flip identities and try to generate what could be mistaken for dialogue but is in fact just one source.]
I said that my focus was on “those who are deemed to be revered and patriotic”. Faceless and nameless individuals commenting on a blog thread do not fit those criteria.
livinginbarbados // July 7, 2009 at 6:29 PM
@Sargeant
I really cannot take the views expressed here as representative of a very large body of opinion because they come from so few, no matter how stridently they are made. But, I also take a view on whether those who claim to be Bajan and are participating here feel they can take issue with what appear to be unfounded remarks made by their compatriots, uttered in a threatening, violent and disrepectful way at other nationals, or if they merely wait for the nationals concerned, to stand up for themselves, or hope that others will do that. It tells me something about what people see as right and proper. I’m still thinking about that.
livinginbarbados // July 7, 2009 at 6:53 PM
@AH
My visit to Boston will give me time to reflect on how things in Barbados look from afar, as my travel usually does. I will use it to ask some questions of two friends who know ethnic strife well (a Peruvian Jew, who has just returned to the US after spending time in Rwanda abd Burundi) and a Guinean (my former junior economist, whom I sponsored to do a masters), whose country has 3 near equal-sized ethnic groups, who have not been in strife, but have watched how such strife has torn apart their neigbouring countries (Sierra Leone, Cote d’Ivoire and Liberia). It’ll be useful perspective also to talk about their histories, which they can trace back over at least 1000 years, and see how that has shaped what they call nationhood.
Maybe I will get to Fenway Park, for the first time, and see how the American national spirit is doing.
Pretty boring stuff, really.
Mongoose // July 7, 2009 at 6:54 PM
Jack, you are far too intelligent, logical, rational, intellectual and educated to be wasting your time dealing with these people. Best Regards.
livinginbarbados // July 7, 2009 at 7:05 PM
Where so ever you all are with your thoughts, I’m going to have fun in a Crop Over tent.
Adrian Hinds // July 7, 2009 at 9:40 PM
It seems like I will miss a great intellectual meeting of like minds, hope that Boston gives you the red carpet treatment, as they await your presence and comments on the American national spirit. Nothing less is deserved.
Themis // July 8, 2009 at 12:00 AM
You people realise, of course, that Ramphal was merely reporting what he had heard and read (“intimations of ethnic cleansing”) He was not at all saying that there was ethnic cleansing in Barbados as many, a few of whom should know better, seem to think!
Adrian Hinds // July 8, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Themis // July 8, 2009 at 12:00 am
You people realise, of course, that Ramphal was merely reporting what he had heard and read (”intimations of ethnic cleansing”) He was not at all saying that there was ethnic cleansing in Barbados as many, a few of whom should know better, seem to think!
————————————————-
So he is not to be held responsible for what he said? Is the supposedly learnt fellow in the habit of uttering quotes without any personal interpretation as to what they mean? Should I dismiss just this comment or the entire article as the ramblings an old ……
BTW since we can’t get de Jamaican LIB to answer, what do you think he meant or better yet what the article meant?
Livinginbarbados // July 8, 2009 at 1:42 PM
@AH
“It seems like I will miss a great intellectual meeting of like minds,”
We are anything but of ‘like minds’, even in the area of the economics that we practised together. This is where assessment of people can be important.
An exercise that would be worth going through in the immigration discussion, but more broadly, is thinking about what it is that makes people seem different or similar. Look at the three disparate individuals, of which I am one.
1. A middle-aged Peruvian-born Jew, who spent time growing up in Peru (as part of a religious minority that has known centuries of persecution) and Israel (as part of a religious majority that was built to avoid persecution), studied and worked in the US (where he was part of the religious minority but in the racical majority), worked and lived in Ghana, Rwanda and Burundi (where he was the minority in so many senses–and in two of those countries elimination of ethnic minorities is a well know part of recent history). Has his family living in Israel while he goes off to do Hebrew studies.
2. A late 20s Guinean born and bred Muslim, who studied in his country (where political opponents of the presidents have been brutally eliminated over decades) and Morocco, then worked with a group of expatriates (none of whom shared his religion), then studies in Tunisia and now the US. Whose family now lives without him, though in their home land.
3. A Jamaican-born Christian (who has never known religious persecution), who spent 30 formative years in England, as a not much liked racial minority (though never really persecuted, personally), who then lived about 20 years in the US, again as a not much liked racial minority (where racial persecution of this group is still part of living memory). Who also lived and worked in west Africa as part of a racial majority but part of a religious minority. Who returns to the Caribbean, but as part of a racial majority, but also a distinctive foreigner.
How could or would we become of ‘like mind’?
Adrian Hinds // July 8, 2009 at 1:58 PM
@LIB
Report back on all views with respect to “Nationhood” and all that it entails.
Livinginbarbados // July 8, 2009 at 2:06 PM
@AH
“Report back on all views with respect to “Nationhood” and all that it entails.”
I do have that very much in my sights, with the modest caveat that ‘all that it entails’ may be beyond me.
As an aside, I am always amused how I have to explain to many people that my English accent or time in England DOES NOT MAKE me English in my mind, one little bit. Yet there are some who will see me as nothing as pure Jamaican.
Our Caribbean lives are complex enough for a region so small. My generation was born British (by administrative fiat), then became something else (by adminsitrative fiat) when our countries became independent as their different times. Some like me could reclaim British nationality (by another administrative fiat) and yet also retain our new national identities by administrative convenience. But throughout all of that, I was/am, and I am sure many like me, were/are only ever ‘nationals’ in our own eyes.
Enough for the moment.
Sargeant // July 8, 2009 at 2:28 PM
@LIB
• I’m not on any Sandy Lane cocktail circuit (my loss, I guess, so I will have to do some networking), but we could always try to arrange to have a breakfast with Sir S. near his home near the south coast.
**************************************
My bad, I should have said the diplomatic cocktail circuit judging from your recent exploits. And you know where he lives too; you’re “walking in some mighty tall cotton” as they say in the Southern US.
Anyway feel free to ask on my behalf, poor boys like me don’t do cocktails or cocktail parties very well, we may embarrass ourselves by asking the hired help if dey got any see-tru.
Adrian Hinds // July 8, 2009 at 2:31 PM
I was/am, and I am sure many like me, were/are only ever ‘nationals’ in our own eyes.
Is that Jamaican Nationals or Caribbean Nationals?….yuh know, of the Caribbean Nation?
I am surprise that could be so confuse by your accent. :) Now that I know you see yourself as Jamaican, I shall refer to you as British. lol!
Anonymous // July 8, 2009 at 3:02 PM
@Sergeant: My bad too. I’m not on the diplomatic cocktail circuit either, but just know a range of people. If I thought I.could meet him over pudding and souse that would be better. But even poor boys by origin or current position can stand in tall cotton. The English say a cat
Can look at a king.
M
Livinginbarbados // July 8, 2009 at 3:16 PM
@AH
“Is that Jamaican Nationals or Caribbean Nationals?….yuh know, of the Caribbean Nation?” [To me, there are nations (and territories) in the Caribbean region, and we can confuse things by referring to 'Caribbean nationals' because there are many who are ignorant of our location and status and confuse themselves. Even if we had a common passport we would still be nationals of the individual countries, unless they have disappeared as states in the process.]
“I am surprise that could be so confuse by your accent. :) Now that I know you see yourself as Jamaican, I shall refer to you as British. lol!” [There you go. I am more likely to be truly offended by being called British or English--not least for the insult to my ancestors and compatriots and those with whom I align myself in the Caribbean.]
David did not think the British ‘invasion’ was worth being concerned about now/yet. But though my initial intention had some facetiousness about it, it’s worth focusing on. One of the good Calypsos from last night touched on this issue, and who is buying up the land. Food for thought.
Livinginbarbados // July 8, 2009 at 3:29 PM
@Sergeant
“And you know where he [Sir. S.] lives too…”[Ain't no big secrets in Barbados. On this little island, people can bump into each other a lot.But, I don't know or follow his movements.]
Adrian Hinds // July 8, 2009 at 3:51 PM
How should I accept the following:
and we can confuse things by referring to ‘Caribbean nationals’
—————————————-
Were you deliberately attempting to confuse when you referred to your wife as a Caribbean national?
So the Brits failed to assimilate you. After 30 years of living there you still do not see your self as British. So much for the their defence of Multiculturalism. Would you still advocate for a deepening of a multicultured Barbados?
I am with you on the new British Invasion. It is sad that they are leaving the multicultured society they created, and still defend.
Livinginbarbados // July 8, 2009 at 4:03 PM
@AH
“Were you deliberately attempting to confuse when you referred to your wife as a Caribbean national?” [Remember the full context I gave for the potential confusion, which added “…because there are many who are ignorant of our location and status and confuse themselves” I do not take it that those who are in or from the Caribbean suffer this confusion. But, many of my wife’s compatriots are conflicted because although their country has Caricom status, it’s located in The Atlantic Ocean. They often refer/referred to those from islands located in The Caribbean Basin as “West Indians”. (The whimsical part of me wonders if the so-called Indo-Guyanese are wondering if they should revert to spreading this new ‘insult’ by calling black Bajans, for example, “Indo-Bajans” (from being former West Indians).)
“So the Brits failed to assimilate you. After 30 years of living there you still do not see your self as British.” [Of course not. I’m not. But claims to national identity are largely individual. My father lived in England as long as I did, and he would never call himself English, though as a returnee to Jamaica he is called “English”. 20 years in America did not make me American, but I would understand my 5 year old (in US of born of parents of different nationalities, spending 2 years in Guinea and now 2 years in Bim) having a bit of sorting out to do. Nationality is not a nomadic badge.
I don’t quite follow the last sentence.
Mongoose // July 8, 2009 at 5:44 PM
LIB, AH, as a person who has not lived in Barbados for more than 15 years and rarely visits, can only comment and opine from the perspective of one who has no realistic view of current life in Barbados or the Caribbean.
Adrian Hinds // July 8, 2009 at 10:21 PM
Not much has changed in the Caribbean for the last 40 years, so my so called 15 year old reality would still hold.
But tell muh not…..
Caricom is still a talk shop.
Cannibis is still St.Vincent number one export.
St.Lucia still begging for a US embassy.
Dominica, is still no claim to a sand bank just off it’s coast.
Grenada still remembers Bishop as if it was yesterday
Trinidad is still an oil rich nation, with high poverty index
Venezuela still has not given up it’s claim to two thirds of Guyana
Guyana today looks like an Indo Forbes Burnham is in charge.
Jamaica is still known as the murder capital of the world and the police is getting in on the act.
We bajans are still docile, overly pragmatic and thinks that politicians have our interest at heart.
The former commonwealth Caribbean Nations are still run like Fifedoms.
Am I wrong? ha ha ha ha lol!
The Scout // July 8, 2009 at 10:46 PM
No Adrian, You’re not wrong but some things have been added. All over Barbados you will find Chinese restuarants and lots of them walking around , most of the large government projects are now done by chinese and some private ones too. Then their is the large influx of guyanese who are competing against the chinese for jobs. It is not unusual for an unemployed bajan artisan when he applies for a job on the worksite, that they don’t employ bajans. Yes, this is Barbados I’m talking about, a Barbados that many bajans are beginning to lose faith in. Progress is great but bajans are not benefiting. Even the NHC seems to be favoring guyanese for their houses over the bajans. Something will explode soon.
Livinginbarbados // July 9, 2009 at 2:42 AM
@AH/The Scout/Mongoose
I do not believe all I see on the Internet, but one source (http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html, reportedly using Interpol data, and with caveat “Homicide statistics for much of the world are hard to come by and often very unreliable”), gave the mid-1970s murder ranks as: 1. Lesotho, 2. The Bahamas, 3. Guyana, …5. Nethelands Antilles,…9. Trinidad, 10. Jamaica.
When The Scout writes “You’re not wrong but some things have been added. All over Barbados you will find Chinese restuarants and lots of them walking around”, I know that I have never seen a CHINESE RESTAURANT WALKING! Impressions are one thing, what is real is often something else. I think it’s a toss up if there are more Chinese restaurants than Indian ones in Bim, and what I have seen puts each at no more than 10 (but I stand to be corrected, though Yellow Pages seems to support that figure). Not really odd for a tourism-driven economy; some may say woefully few.
What I can tell Mongoose is that the island is overrun by British people, mainly on holidays, but swarms of them all over the island. I went to a restaurant yesterday that was full of them (5 tables all taken). They get shipped down daily by British Airways and Virgin Atlantic, and more than 200,000 of them descend here each year; see Caribbean Tourism Organization data for 2002-7, http://www.onecaribbean.org/content/files/2007anguilla-bonaireCountryStats.pdf. That, you know, is nearly the same amount as the island’s population.
Many of the island’s large residential properties are owned by them and they (with some Irish help) own large tracts of land too. Many large enrterprises have CEOs whose voices are distinctly English-sounding–not definitive, but indicative. Some, like LIME/Cable and Wireless, are headed by known English persons.
You’ve lived amongst the British quite some time. Do you want them to turn Barbados into a more than “Little England” in name?
Yet, ironically, the British High Commission in Bridgetown just announced that from August they will cease passport operations for Barbados and the eastern Caribbean, but deal with these in New York. What does that mean?
I think that I am one of the lucky ones who can see where all of this will lead.
Adrian Hinds // July 9, 2009 at 8:12 AM
Ha ha Scout let me “INTERSEED” on yours and my behalf. Your statement though grammatically incorrect did not result in any miscommunication thus. We ALL understood your point. Do understand the Jamaican LIB propenSCity to correct the obvious. Indeed by the statistics Jamaica is not the murder CAPITAL of the world, nor is it a Capital, but is a Country. How the Jamaican LIB now Language maven missed this one???? To be more pointed in my response,….15 years later what has change in respect to Jamaica and murders committed there, for 1993 the year I left Barbados, Jamaica murder rate was 26.8 per 100k with 600+ murders recorded. By 2004 Jamaica was ranked as a country with one of the highest murder rate in the Caribbean. By 2005 its murder rate was reported to be one of the highest in the world.
Caribbean Islands – Page 254
by Lonely Planet Publications Staff, Ryan Ver Berkmoes, Amy C. Balfour, Paul Clammer, Michael Grosberg – Travel – 2008 – 880 pages
Jamaica has the highest murder rate for any country not in the throes of war (
the nation had a record 1574 murders in 2007, a 17% rise on the previous year)
Adrian Hinds // July 9, 2009 at 9:22 AM
No wonder LIB started his response with “I do not believe all I see on the Internet” He knows that one only has to type Jamaica, and the word “murder” MAY miraculously appear. ha ha ha ha
btw as a prolific contributor to various fora/forums on the internet I wonder if he reserves some of his doubts about it’s contents for his own contributions? ha ha ha I too like it when the pragmatic, fact base individuals who spends a significant amount of time admonishing others to view the world more so via facts and ideas than feelings and beliefs, resorts to their “beliefs” when face with overwhelming evidence on a point that they may wish were not so. ha ha ha ha
Adrian Hinds // July 9, 2009 at 9:59 AM
LIB said:
You’ve lived amongst the British quite some time. Do you want them to turn Barbados into a more than “Little England” in name?
————————————————-
Any Ideas on why only two or three islands have signed onto the CCJ?
Any Idea on why there MAY be a significant number of persons who do not want to change our constitutional monarchy for a republic?
Could it be that there isn’t much trust of the West Indian politician?
Sargeant // July 9, 2009 at 10:08 AM
You know what LIB is going with this don’t you? He wants to provoke a backlash about British citizens or people with British accents who are visiting or residing in Barbados. He tried it before and then said it was “facetious” now he is trying it again. Some folks fall for the trap and lose focus on the discussion and comment negatively on Jamaicans, Guyanese, Chinese etc. now he wants to add British to the “matrix”.
If someone responds that they want these people to leave then its all grist to the mill for his blog where he can accuse Bajans of xenophobia.
LIB I don’t know if you have been in Barbados long enough to hear or understand the phrase “one smart died at two smart door”. I am sure Miss Lou has a similar phrase for Jamaica.
BTW I notice that you haven’t responded to my post of yesterday regarding New Zealand’s treatment of British citizens aka their kith and kin.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/newzealand/5753544/British-expats-forced-from-New-Zealand.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/5556582/New-Zealand-is-best-destination-for-expats-says-poll.html
Adrian Hinds // July 9, 2009 at 11:17 AM
Thanks Sargeant. I must admit I almost fell for it, although in the back my mind I sense a change in his position re. I am Jamaican not British, and his play up of his past 30 years in Britain as a minority who was constantly reminded that he is. Yet he his Englishness is laid out for all to see on his blog.
livinginbarbadob // July 9, 2009 at 12:34 PM
In transit…have fun in my absence.
livinginbarbadob // July 9, 2009 at 12:52 PM
@Sargeant: No evil plot. Briefly, we open our hearts it seems to children of those who enslaved our ancestors and brought them here. We close our hearts and minds to those who were sort of in the same boat. Will expand once feet settle in the state of the tea party. Doing this by mobile phone is hard.
livinginbarbadob // July 9, 2009 at 1:01 PM
@AH: No change of position. I am prepared to give personal context. Becuase I think it is relevant. Some peole like to run with a lot of simplistic stuff and name calling and treat that as substance. I try not to. Doors closing. Gotta b uckle up.
My mind has always been clear, dare I say from birth. I am willing to give personal context
Sargeant // July 9, 2009 at 2:32 PM
LIB
We close our hearts and minds to those who were sort of in the same boat.
***********************************
Man you singing from the same song sheet as the honourable Knight Ramphal, he with his “All a we is one” and you with “in the same boat”. I can see why you were loathe to crticise Ramphal, the two of you think alike there must be some school or organisation for folks who can flit from country to country at will to impart “knowledge” to “the great unwashed”; you as a Technocrat and he as a Mandarin. What boat was this? The one that transported us across the ocean below deck, in chains and unable to see the sunlight? Or the one that brought some with their culture and religious beliefs intact. I don’t know if my ancestors worshipped the birds and the bees or the Sun and the Stars, however you described yourself as Christian and I fit that description. Some can point to a culture and religion that goes back thousands of years while I don’t know if I was descended from Ghanaian peasantry, Royalty or even the Kabaka of Buganda.
BTW sometime ago during a casual conversation with a Guyanese colleague I asked what caste she belonged to and she told me she was “Brahmin” ,no “Dalit” for her
If you come on this blog with that foolishness about the same boat we will have to take you to the Bajan equivalent of a woodshed
Enjoy your stay in Beantown. I hope the Bosox go on a losing run (sorry AH)
Adrian Hinds // July 9, 2009 at 3:23 PM
Enjoy your stay in Beantown. I hope the Bosox go on a losing run (sorry AH)
No need for apologies. I don’t “follow” bat and ball games, but ever in the persuit of a sweat I will play.
http://rumshoplime.shutterfly.com/51
livinginbarbados // July 9, 2009 at 5:37 PM
@Sargeant
Wow! It’s amazing how a brief ‘holding reply’ can generate a treatise: the danger of following mere coutesies.
However, as Beantown is bathed in sunshine, which locals attribute to our arrival, I will go with the sunny disposition and put off further comment till I get over the travel horrors.
I am no Red Sox fan. I am a Baltimore Orioles fan, though, and I just found out that they play on Sunday afternoon. Now that shows that some cares for me. I think…
livinginbarbados // July 9, 2009 at 5:58 PM
@Sargeant
I will look at the NZ matter, which I had not seen. (I was on the road most of the week, so far.)
But read and think about how the years of enslavement and mistreatment of one group by another can be/has been absolved (or so the blossoming of tourism would suggest), so that their descendants are happy to be in each others’ company. Then think about the concerns that have been voiced. No reply needed…yet. Just thought.
I will look for a nice bar.
Where meeting is better is that this ‘thread talk’ is no substitute for real dialogue.
I will think if it’s too late to try to get a place to study at the Kennedy School at Harvard. All this time bashing my brain in Bim should be put to some use.
Have a wonderful evening.
livinginbarbados // July 9, 2009 at 6:06 PM
@AH
“No need for apologies. I don’t “follow” bat and ball games, but ever in the persuit of a sweat I will play.
http://rumshoplime.shutterfly.com/51”
[Got to say that's a great picture.]
livinginbarbados // July 9, 2009 at 6:42 PM
@Sargeant
“Man you singing from the same song sheet…”
[Cultural delinkage is an important aspect for us, who are descended from slaves, and (history tells us) had our culture ripped from us/suppressed, etc. as distinct from those who were say brought as indentured workers, and were closer to being free people.
That some have their culture in tact should not be a cause of criticism. It's what many hold onto when they have to move from home. This I am sure I will have reinforced by my friends here. What culture we as Caribbean peoples have/had, we took with us to places like the UK, and it caused strife for us, because 'our ways' were thought to be strange (music, food, lifestyle, you name it). Our 'spicy' food was called 'smelly' etc. That is the blight of the immigrant, moreso, if he/she seems easy to spot individually or collectively.
Many of us gained Christianity, and it's also an interesting history lesson to look back at the role of the Anglican Church is supporting slavery before abolition [Coddrington was a famous anti-abolitionist area], and say the Methodists for trying to overturn it. The belief in God that we developed is not the same as that now practised by those who gave it to us (the Caribbean is much more conservative, if I can simplify), and though it has served most of the Caribbean societies well, our strand is also setting us apart (look at the Caribbean Diocese positions at Synod). But, our sameness and separateness are givens.
Many religions and cultures have bars/barriers, and if you look carefully I think you will find that they are often strong and act as chasms. Look at Anglicanism/Catholicism divide, and tell me if that just an easy matter to get past.
Whether Sir S. and I think the same is unlikely to have anything to do with what we did for our work, but maybe because of the way we think we are more comfortable working across national lines. I cannot postulate if there is some sort of ’self selection’. But, trust me, those who have wide international experience are not free from some shuddering bigotry.
livinginbarbados // July 9, 2009 at 6:50 PM
@Sargeant
On the NZ stories, I don’t have much of a reaction. ‘Managed migration’ has that kind of result: it’s recently been flagged in Malaysia (jobs for Malays first, foreigners go home…), and long been practised in the Gulf States, where Indians have felt the brunt of this kind of ‘want you, don’t want you’ shift in attitude to migrant workers. But, that is part of the risk of going on such programs. I don’t know what kind of provisions for termination the PM will include in the policy due in a few weeks.
Ironically, I met a British lady headed to NZ from Bim on my flight today; she’d just visited her father who is on contract here in the IT field. She said she is always heart broken to leave Bim after her 3-4 month visits. Take that whereever you want.
Adrian Hinds // July 9, 2009 at 9:31 PM
Sargeant did you learn anything from those four responses????? wow!
Sargeant // July 10, 2009 at 5:27 PM
AH
Perhaps LIB was suffering from “jet lag” after his 5 hour flight. He has to suffer through watching his team the Orioles play this weekend. They are now in last place behind the “Blew Jays”.
livinginbarbados // July 10, 2009 at 5:54 PM
@Sargeant/AH (we should not hijack this thread)
“Jet lag” is easing due to the gorgeous sunshine in Beantown. A trip to Fenway alerted me that it’s Kansas on the docket this w/e.
Thanks to Steve Jobs shop on Boylston St, I can see that waves of immigration (legal and illegal) have left a wonderful legacy in this city at least. This is mere casual observation, and wholly devoid of data.
The way that the Puritans dealt with those who did not fit in is a scary reminder of what can happen. But, how ironic that the Puritans, having run away from various forms of religious intolerance found themselves overwhelmed by Irish and Italian Catholics.
On CCJ, I spoke to a DPP from one of our islands, and he told me the story is complicated, but in a nutshell, CCJ was not the ‘easy route’ to hard decisions that some countries had hoped.
Trust the rain has abated in Bim.
David // July 11, 2009 at 12:45 AM
We had a read of Rickey Singh’s latest column and it rasied some questions. Hope the BU family can help!
If we analyze the above by Singh and juxtapose it to what Prime Minister Dean Barrow of Belize and Skerrit of Dominica who has responsibility for free movement in CSME, we think it exposes the above for what it is, journalistic dishonesty. We have Caricom Heads admitting that some members are having problems with immigration yet our leading Caribbean journalist writes the above?
Firs of all which party was the incumbent in the last general election, wasn’t it the Barbados Labour Party and wasn’t the general election in Barbados held in 2007 and not last year? It is late at the time of posting this comment so forgive BU if we have misinterpreted Singh. Next, don’t we have a first past the post system so to make a statement that if all the Caricom nationals had voted for one party or the other it would have had an impact would depend on how those votes were distributed? In other words one would have to look at the individual constituencies and not the voter aggregate.
Didn’t Prime Minister Thompson and more recent Minister McClean identify that since the June Amnesty declaration single digit Guyanese have been deported and about 50 asked to leave with the opportunity to return? Do the numbers declared so far justify the braying from Singh, Brathwaite, Davis, Gonzalves, Jagdeo, Commision (who has gone strangely silent since being exposed) et al?
Sargeant // July 11, 2009 at 2:09 AM
David
It appears that the Government, for all the agony it projects, is still not in a position to offer a realistic assessment of “illegal” CARICOM nationals. And compared to the very significant size of CARICOM nationals on Antigua and Barbuda’s electoral register, the situation in Barbaos is miniscule.
************************************
The above had me scratching my head, does he mean Barbados should wait until the non national vote reaches the proportion of Antigua’s before it declares that there is a problem? Also I didn’t get the point about the non nationals voting for the DLP or the BLP either but he is a “noted” Caribbean journalist so it must intelligible to someone. (As an aside does anyone at the Nation ever edit or proofread articles?).
Earlier there was mention of Bajan fishermen being arrested for fishing off Tobago, yet when Barbados tries to enforce its Immigration laws there is a hue and cry from some regional leaders and “noted” journalists. BTW next time a Bajan fisherman is arrested for fishing illegally in Trinidad or St. Vincent waters he should get a lawyer to reclaim his catch since there is a school of thought that illegal aliens being deported have a right to their property.
What the hell does “migration is a human right” mean? Can I just up and migrate to any country?
The General Election was held in January 2008.
livinginbarbados // July 11, 2009 at 6:51 AM
This article reads mightily strangely, as if it were a draft that somehow got published without final checking. So, I will ignore most of its contents.
Just for Sargeant, the issue of rights to property and illegal activity I have mentioned before. A person acting illegally in one sphere is not tarred with the brush of ‘all you do is illegal’. The illegal fisherman has no rights to his catch (illegal), but we may presume that he owns legally his boat and can therefore keep it.
The illegal immigrant has to face sanctions in the area of legality of entry and length of stay, and it is to be proven if the person did other illegal things. Prima facie, his/her property cannot be assumed to have been acquired illegally and therefore liable for confiscation. There may be penalties to be faced regarding any income an illegal person earned (eg, unpaid taxes) and he or she may need to sell some possessions to deal with those sanctions, but there needs to be a process of assessment and levying.
Themis // July 11, 2009 at 7:55 AM
Sargeant,
Although I disagree with some of your other statements, I too am having trouble with this migration as a human right assertion. They probably meant that it is a PRIVILEGE subject to the right of the host country to determine its extent, but a RIGHT involves a duty on the part of another, and I cannot see which country has a duty to facilitate migration!
Brer Fox // July 11, 2009 at 8:03 AM
@Themis, Sargeant
Migration as a human right makes little sense. Privilege can work. If I were to say to myself what is the man R. Singh talking about I could parse and suggest, each person is free to try to move from where he/she is: no one should be obliged to stay put. But, that’s as far as you can go. No one is under obligation to accept a visitor, therefore, the migrant has to accept that he/she may see the ‘unwelcome’ mat.
I will amuse myself with seeing how much word play I can get from ‘R. Singh’. A verb, a noun, an adjective, a preposition, multiple usage?
Themis // July 11, 2009 at 8:12 AM
@ Brer Fox, how about GRINSH?
Artis // July 11, 2009 at 8:37 AM
I wanted to live in California my whole life. Since migration is a human right I in the US embassy next week to demand a green card.
livinginbarbadob // July 11, 2009 at 8:52 AM
@Themis: See another thread on ethnic issues. Grinsh would be a good story for ‘199′ to read.
:
David // July 11, 2009 at 8:56 AM
Could it be this human rights talk is being given currency in the context of what has been agreed by the Caricom Heads under the revised treaty of chaguramus ie we agree to proceed as a group therefore the individual country is bound to administer the agreement.
Sargeant // July 11, 2009 at 10:04 AM
Themis
Although I disagree with some of your other statements
************************************
That’s fine, I’ve posted on a variety of topics and don’t want nor do I expect everyone to agree with me. Diversity of opinion is what makes the blog interesting.
We can disagree without being disagreeable
Themis // July 11, 2009 at 10:13 AM
Yes, we can, Sarge. Well said!
livinginbarbadob // July 11, 2009 at 10:22 AM
@Sargeant: Second that motion. New motto for this blog?
David // July 11, 2009 at 10:33 AM
@LIB
What are you implying or saying?
Based on the particular argument one side may become more strident that the other, it is the nature of the beast. Sunday School anyone?
:-)
livinginbarbadob // July 11, 2009 at 1:04 PM
@David: Sunday school? It’s where many learn good manners. You should know that I can ride the waves seriously, satirically, sardonically, sillily, and scornfully. But I try to draw the line at profanities in this space. Perhaps you will make a search or use your memory to tell me where the comments of those who write with a numbered handle fit the disagreement without being disagreeable mould.
Sargeant // July 14, 2009 at 2:03 PM
Meanwhile in other news, Canada announces Visa requirements for Czechs and Mexicans
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/665768