The West Indies cricket test team was beaten by the Bangladeshis today. The significance of this result of being beaten by a team ranked last in the ICC Rankings is yet to needle its way into the psyche of the depraved West Indian cricket fan.
The West Cricket team represents one of the few regional entities which had been held up as a symbol of Caribbean unity. In light of the illogical decisions in recent years exhibited by the WIBC and WIPA, the biggest stakeholder of all the PEOPLE has now been dulled into a state of apathy.
To be a world class performer in any sphere requires the best management approaches and all that it brings. The members of the Board of Management (WIBC) which oversees West Indies cricket are not selected based on any pre-requisite competencies which mimic how successful organizations are run. Instead the Directors of the WIBC are all elected based on membership in private enclaves which operate based on petty whims and fancies of many seeking fame and fortune.
While the focus has always been on the WIBC and WIPA, there are other stakeholders equally or more important to ensuring the success of West Indies cricket. When several Caribbean government took the decision to pump millions into cricket stadia and collateral infrastructure to stage CWC 2007 the PEOPLE became the key stakeholder in the business of West Indies cricket. Bear in mind with the exception of Trinidad, and to a lesser extent Barbados, any decent economist would have advised against the impoverished Caribbean islands assuming the additional debt based on a payback linked to legacy. The subsequent actions by the Caricom governments to pump scare resources into CWC 2007 suggest a failing of leadership, BU further suggests that the region is being afflicted by this dearth in leadership in every facet of governance.
The statement which best surmises the state of West Indies cricket was made earlier this month by Dr. Julian Hunte, President of the WIBC:
The WICB President pointed out that although the West Indies players are the third best paid in the world (after England and Australia), they are ranked Number 8 and that their performances are inconsistent with the emoluments they receive. Dr. Hunte said, We want our team to be Number One both in performance and emoluments. However, if we do not start winning we run the risk of being relegated and we will not be able to earn the money that we require to regain our place at the pinnacle of world cricket.
There is enough blame to spread around in what has become the sorry tale of the demise of West Indies cricket. Unfortunately the WIBC is currently the entity charged with the responsibility to lead West Indies cricket to the banks of safety. For this reason alone we support the WIBC’s position to banish the WIPA to obscurity and develop a roadmap 10 years too late to rebuild West Indies cricket.
Better late than never!
109 responses so far ↓
John // July 13, 2009 at 11:21 PM
Just make the obvious decision which was staring us in the face since before World Cup.
We are no longer interested in cricket to the extent that we will produce the players who really want to excel.
We are no longer in love.
No amunt of management will get around that flaw …. and it is a flaw.
Another interesting point is that West Indies cricke was a creation of colonialism.
It was actually colonialism that produced the Caribbean unity of which the article speaks.
…. and yet …. there are still the tantalising glimpses of what it could have become.
Remember this one when we ruled the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loYyJllsj68
… and this guy who consistently performed outside of himself and gave us the pleasure only he could give.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SzfWtTZOtA
Look at the clip at Kensington and observe the people, not only Holding.
They possessed a vigour you do not see today in everyday Bajans.
Maybe we are just no longer physically strong enough.
199 // July 14, 2009 at 1:24 AM
Dave, u should know that the great days of West Indian cricket ended with the illustrious Vivian Richards! When I tell people I’m no longer interested in cricket, you see why! We’ve forgotten how to play the game!!
RJH Adams // July 14, 2009 at 5:14 AM
@David,
You truly consider asking the WICB to develop a 10 year “roadmap” the way out?
In nearly any highly contentious dispute such as that going on between players and board the first step is to bring in outsiders to diagnose the core problems. Fortunately, this has already been done.
The Patterson report in 2007 set out the very roadmap you suggest (minus the decade requirement) and carried the added weight of being independent.
However, its key recommendations was the abolition – sorry, reconstitution – of the WICB itself. Why? Inefficent administration, opaque financials (almost always a recipe for underperformance), sponsorship negotiations that lead to comedic legal wranglings, unfufilled funding promises to regional boards, an Academy that remains a pipe-dream and a long history of destroying trust between with both spectators and players.
Sadly, turkeys rarely vote for Christmas and short of a revolution the WICB will muddle on. They claim to have implemented the “vast majority” of the Patterson Report – apart from that minor suggestion that they cease to exist.
So why side with the WICB suggestion that the top players are paid adequately and therefore we must have results on that basis alone? As Tony Cozier puts it, first-class games continue to be played on third-class grounds, there is no systematic coaching and the domestic tournaments are the possibly the weakest in living memory.
The consequences of an infrastructure with all the robustness of a wet paper bag was plain yesterday: in our second string line-up there was not one player, other than Dave Bernard, who was able to handle the turning ball adequately in both innings.
Certainly the members of the WICB are all good men. But this is the legacy of the structure they wish to maintain. Asking them to produce yet another report is simply a way to launch the ball deep into the long grass of the pasture once more.
Just implement the Patterson Report and bring back, as John says, the love.
David // July 14, 2009 at 6:08 AM
@RJH Adams
You should have noticed we did not cite the litany of symptoms which would have exposed culpability by the WIBC and WIPA. Which controlling entity would have given its captain permission to turn up for a tour in England for which even the best players admit acclimatisation is a must, which good captain would have desserted his players on the eve of battle just like Gayle did?
We have sided with the WIBC because it is the only entity legally charged with leading in the sordid mess. This realisation though true serves to expose the seriousness of the problem at hand.
livinginbarbados // July 14, 2009 at 6:16 AM
@David
“We have sided with the WIBC because it is the only entity legally charged with leading in the sordid mess.”
This is the same argument used for leaving Robert Mugabe in charge in Zimbabwe.
David // July 14, 2009 at 6:24 AM
@LIB
You are correct.
Anonymous // July 14, 2009 at 7:02 AM
@David
The Patterson report was clear, as RJH Adams noted, and as with many recommendations only partially implemented, success is less likely. My main reservation with the commissioning of the report had been that it was not ‘outside’ enough, but I think PJ dispelled my concerns on objectivity. WICB, however, continues its self-serving ways.
David // July 14, 2009 at 7:16 AM
Our point which we did not make with effect was how could our impoverished government could have justified spending, was it $500,000 after the PJ Report was submitted. Bear in mind it was PJ Patterson who was presented with Caricom’s highest award at the just concluded heads of government summit.
Should we make the obvious conclusion?
livinginbarbados // July 14, 2009 at 7:26 AM
@David
Anonymous // July 14, 2009 at 7:02 am…is LIB.
The solutions for cricket do not require much beyond political will, not least because beyond PJ’s report there are the examples from a myriad set of sports. West Indies cricket’s unique problem is managing a team structure made up of many national associations, which have little commonality beside the sport.
The idea of scrapping ‘West Indies’ and letting national teams play is one of my preferences, as is the case in every other sport in our region and worldwide, and as is amply demonstrated to be workable for future development with the UK having England, Scotland and Wales as separate national teams. We have the Caribbean national set ups already and we can perhaps turn to a positive the animosity and rivalries between them.
The $500k is yet another case of money not well spent? Let it take its place on the list.
Anonymous // July 14, 2009 at 7:32 AM
I believe Ramnarine is using WIPA to promote himself even if it means destroying cricket.
He was not a cricketer of any worth so he is trying to make a name and a legacy for himself as the big man who must be seen as important as the board.
That is the physche of the indian man – destroy everything to get his way.
David // July 14, 2009 at 7:42 AM
@anonymous
Ramnarine is a creature of the players.
@LIB
Your suggestion to dismantle the concept of playing as a group shows you maybe trivialising its contribution to supporting the bridge to that union which beckons.
peltdownman // July 14, 2009 at 7:52 AM
Losing to Bangladesh was not the darkest day in WI cricket. That belongs to the day when Gayle was appointed captain.
David // July 14, 2009 at 7:57 AM
@Peltdownman
Don’t go blaming captains. It is why we are where we are now.
livinginbarbados // July 14, 2009 at 7:59 AM
@David
“Your suggestion to dismantle the concept of playing as a group shows you maybe trivialising its contribution to supporting the bridge to that union which beckons.”
That, mon ami, is a crock. If you stand in hope that cricket will form a bridge that people have seemed unwilling to cross over nearly half a century then that is some mighty hope.
Turn it on its head. If you had a situation (which some believe exist) that the top 11 players in the region were from 3 countries, why then would you field a team with any other than those players? Political expediency? Considerations for some greater good? Each one of the ‘best’ 11 you replace is by definition contributing to weakening the team. Who is made happier/better off by that?
I suggest you look at unions in reverse and think outside the box that happens to be sitting on the table. Look at what has happened to the former Yugoslavia, which has taken union in reverse, and see if the sum of Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia, etc. is not better than the previous Yugoslavia whole. Not content with that? Look at the former Soviet Union and tell me that a happier situation (in sports alone) does not exist because instead of the USSR you have Estonia, Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, etc. standing on their own rather than being puppeteered from some ‘centre’.
Finally, I see that race has already reared its head. Is that a record on a thread?
Anonymous // July 14, 2009 at 8:07 AM
David
Ramnarine is the person pushing this hard line against the WICB.
Do you know that he uses as his adviser one of the most hard lined trade unionist from trinidad – david abdullah?
Who you think is responsible for making those outrageous demands e.g. getting rights similar to the USA basket ball players and huge match fees etc?
Chanderpaul and the like don’t have a clue about these things.
You must understand that ramnarine’s job is dependent on the cricketers so he will try as hard as possible to give the impression that he is working so hard for them – when it is really about his ego – therfore the unrealistic demands.
Imagine the WICB stated and it was not refuted that WIPA wanted 90% of moneys earned on a recent overseas tour.
Chris gayle and the players are also very greedy ,no doubt about it,but they are are like robots in ramnarine’s hand – he says they will get more money – and they do whatever he says.
Why was it that when the last person (I think derryck murray) was leading WIPA you did not see this type of ‘brinksmanship?’
Adrian Hinds // July 14, 2009 at 8:37 AM
Things falling apart yet we are still marching towards integration and freedom of movement.
Hard Driver // July 14, 2009 at 8:40 AM
John,
Those clips brought tears to my eyes …
Will we ever produce players like that again? The talent is there for sure but the support sadly lacking.
I agree some blame must go to the players who have become very greedy without producing the results to justify that greed, but most of West Indies cricket woes are the fault of a board made up of incompetent lackeys.
The Caricom heads of government need to hold an emergency meeting and step in to resolve this thing NOW …
Adrian Hinds // July 14, 2009 at 8:48 AM
livinginbarbados // July 14, 2009 at 7:26 am
@David
Anonymous // July 14, 2009 at 7:02 am…is LIB.
The solutions for cricket do not require much beyond political will, not least because beyond PJ’s report there are the examples from a myriad set of sports. West Indies cricket’s unique problem is managing a team structure made up of many national associations, which have little commonality beside the sport.
The idea of scrapping ‘West Indies’ and letting national teams play is one of my preferences, as is the case in every other sport in our region and worldwide, and as is amply demonstrated to be workable
————————————————-
Could you develop this further? I don’t even know if it needs to be develop further. Do you really see this as a viable option? Is it the only viable option? What are the chances of this being done if along with UWI the West Indies cricket team has been held up as a beacon to the region’s “oneness”.
I stop following West Indies Team cricket in 1993.
The People's Democratic Congress // July 14, 2009 at 8:58 AM
The very dismal and appalling state of so-called West Indies cricket mirrors the very dismal and appalling state of local politics in Barbados.
Well, both so-called West Indies cricket and local politics would have had their origins in British colonialism and enslavement, even though the latter discipline was brutally imposed on Barbados, beginning in the seventeenth Century, and only ending relatively recently, and even though the former discipline was less savagely introduced into Barbados somewhere thereafter this said local politics was then introduced.
But, their emergence would have, of course, had to do with the achievement of different social and political objectives at different times along the same broad political trajectory – which was and has – up to today still – been to engineer multifarious sub-human, inhuman political and other outcomes consistent with those of its many different self-serving, inhuman and Western societal colonizers and exploiters – which themselves have largely spoken to subjecting a largely African and increasingly Indian population in this English speaking region, to things British or European – or, other wise said, the subjecting of NOT ONLY Barbados, BUT ALSO ALL other territories in the region to various kinds of obnoxious European rule, for the primary purposes of political exploitation, racial degradation, and political and financial profiteering.
Hence, with regard to the intellectual, social, political, material and financial methods and techniques that have been used – and with telling effect – in these very subjugating and dehumanizing processes within the context of the historical evolution of these two disciplines, such methods and techniques have long ranged from the cruel and barbarous, to the genteel and transformative – though, when properly analyzed along the said trajectory, with the achievement of similar objectives and purposes as that of the other method or technique, in the very minds of the damn Euro-centric people, or in the minds of the Euro-centric oriented local overseers.
Now, having regard for the colonial and post colonial development eras involved in both of these disciplines, it can safely be argued that what has now become known as “West Indies cricket” and what has now become known as local politics, did see their greatest number of individual forme/ stars (Worrell, Weekes, Walcott, Sobers, Kanhai, Richards, Marshall, Lara, etc.) ( Oneal, Payne, Adams, Barrow, Walcott, etc.) , and collective superb exponents – the so-called West Indies( the World beating West Indies ), and with regard to Barbados ( The BLP, under the two Adamses, and the DLP, under Barrow), and progressive stages of development – the so-called West Indies ( from simple but committed amateurs to sophisticated but ambivalent professional cricketers/from simple, seperate, semi-colonial territorial administrators of the game, to skilled integrationist, regional and increasingly global administrators a la the WICBC), and where Barbados is concerned ( from a colony of the British, to independence from the British, etc./the deepening and widening of regional political, trade and investment ties with many other regional and international countries), during the anti-colonial nationalistic periods and during the early post-independence periods, say up to the mid 80s, – relative to the English speaking Caribbean as a whole.
But, the mightiest but most appalling of the ideological, social and political effects that did take centrality in this historical dialectical process that would have been involving the evolution of a so-called West Indian cricket culture, and the evolution of a Barbados politics, did take place when respectively in West Indies cricket and Barbados politics ( the early 70s to late 80s esp), the major players and processes and institutions involved in both felt that it was acceptable for them to appear more British in their words and deeds than could ever be thought to defeat or overcome, particularly, the British or, by extension, the Caucasian, at their own ways of playing cricket or practicing local politics, without attempting to, or, in fact ,changing the rules and customs of the game to suit themselves, in regard of so-called West Indies cricket, and without changing very much the Western Euro-centric ideological and political methods and techniques that have been established in Barbados to suit our locally bred home grown experiences, relative to local politics.
Thus, by also becoming extensions of – rather than examples to – the British and by extension the Caucasian, there has been a serious reversal in the substantial trends towards a real identity, foundation, superstructure, and redeveloping of what has become known as West Indies cricket and local politics. Thus, it is so shameful to the PDC that such reversals would have come in the face of those cricketing and political processes and institutions that had, indeed, greatly helped to produce the above mentioned former stars and outstanding political personalities and the respective substantial stages of development, in both disciplines.
Thus, too, so-called West Indies cricket fans NOT ONLY in Barbados, BUT ALSO outside of it, and supporters of this type of local DLP/BLP led politics that is practiced in Barbados, will continue to be severely disappointed and infuriated at the depths to which both disciplines have reached, until there are fundamental and far-reaching changes – and for the better – in the way how these cultures and structures representing so-called West Indies cricket and local politics, function and progress. So, just look at how so many aspects in terms of the management, selection policies, etc., of so-called West Indies cricket have looked more like English cricket itself, and look at how so many aspects of local politics – The Queen still Head of State of both, corrupt partisan politics – resemble British politics!! What a night mare, indeed!!
Hence, as they presently stand both so-called West Indies cricket and local politics will continue to suffer from similar multifarious problems ( it must be hereby said though that cricket and politics from colonial times did mix to some extent). Among these problems that they will continue to suffer from are:
1) the lack of serious, decisive and visionary leadership;
2) from the lack of proper and more progressive and strategic management;
3) from the dearth of ideological and philosophical commitment to the disciplines, esp. by the major cricketing and political people involved. These people seem more to be involved in these cricketing and political activities, respectively, for reasons that are more related, et al, to engaging in behaviour that is indicative of the satisfying of their own cricketing and political egos, related to the getting of more money than ever, to the achieving of a sense of higher social standing and status, and related to the facilitating of the pseudo-marketing of their own sexual dimensions, than more related to seeing themselves as very active and responsible participants in the greater development of so many aspects of both endeavours, to the betterment of these disciplines more so than for the betterment of themselves;
4) suffer from the absence of stronger, wider, more encompassing meaningful and attitudinal and value-instilling social political cultures and movements; and,
5) suffer from the chronic and excessive dependence upon foreign ideologies, actors and institutions – most of which ever so often – do NOT operate with their best interests in mind – for their so-called further development.
Finally, it can be seen why “West Indies cricket” is performing so miserably ever so often, and why local politics is so overwhelmingly and devastatingly poor and mediocre at the same time at this stage, and, to the contrary, why the cricket of, say, Australian cricket, is so dominant and progressive in global cricket, and why the local politics of America is so outstanding to some degree – altogether at this juncture.
PDC
livinginbarbados // July 14, 2009 at 9:11 AM
Could you develop this further?
I don’t even know if it needs to be develop further. [Not sure if you need it developed. I will assume not. Just see response to next point, below and think of how we approach soccer/World Cup, Caribbean Cup, CONCACA;, athletics/Olympics, Commonwealth Games, CARIFTA; swimming...]
Do you really see this as a viable option? [Yes. We have it for every other international sport in the region, and it seems to work.]
Is it the only viable option? [No.]
What are the chances of this being done if along with UWI the West Indies cricket team has been held up as a beacon to the region’s “oneness”.[Who knows? We have 'oneness' of a sort with Windies, but it's really only in name. With UWI too, there is not really one seamless university, but 3 distinct campuses under one administration. That makes it similar to Oxford, Cambridge and London Universities, with the many individual colleges of each university agreeing to abide by certain common rules, but otherwise being largely self-determining.]
I really think there is amazing double think on the issue as it pertains to cricket.
Whether you follow cricket or not, you can think through the issues. From your US standpoint, think of how there is the Federal and the State level for traffic regulation (and you should know that except on Interstate highways, when you cross state borders, traffic laws change). For those who want ‘oneness’ in cricket they could get that through certain levels of administration that do not have to extend to what is practised at national level. I am sure our region would not fall apart with the dissolving of WICB and WI cricket.
livinginbarbados // July 14, 2009 at 9:17 AM
@PDC
Is your ideology home-grown? Just one word, please.
Global Voices Online » Barbados: Dark Day for Windies // July 14, 2009 at 9:31 AM
[...] and WICB for killing our cricket. You're both doing a bang up job!”, while compatriot Barbados Underground adds: “In light of the illogical decisions in recent years exhibited by the WIBC and WIPA, [...]
John // July 14, 2009 at 9:53 AM
Hard Driver // July 14, 2009 at 8:40 am
John,
Those clips brought tears to my eyes …
Will we ever produce players like that again? The talent is there for sure but the support sadly lacking.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Look carefully at the crowd.
Can you imagine Bajans today being able to fit through the openings to stow away in the Kensington stand?
…. or even condescending to go to the trouble just to see and be a part of the electric atmosphere that once existed at Kensington?
Look at the intense enjoyment of the patrons when Boycott was bowled, ….. hear the roar of the crowd.
I remember that morning exactly, where I was, what I was doing.
I listened on the radio in my car and like the crowd who did not have a chance to sit down good and watch with controlled thought I nearly leapt through the car window when the roar went up after the last ball of the over.
Later on that day Botham got a repeat of the treatment …… pure magic.
Bajans I don’t think are able any more with all the trouble and physical exertion associated with cricket.
We just don’t have the love for the game we once had.
Maybe each island should go it alone and let the ones who are hungry for the game and love it unashamedly rise to the top once more.
There is just too much dead weight in West Indies Cricket now, from the top to the bottom.
We are just not interested anymore.
Adrian Hinds // July 14, 2009 at 9:55 AM
LIB I am just asking questions for the benefit of the discussion. My views on West Indies cricket are much like yours, and for similar reasons. It just seems to me that Caricom in practice seems very much like WICB, yet there is a call for Caricom heads to intervene in WICB,….again?
The People's Democratic Congress // July 14, 2009 at 10:07 AM
livinginbarbados,
A mixture of the divine and the dialectical.
With regard to Hopi, under the other thread: Down by the Board Walk, we will take wholly into consideration your comments about our descending into the gutter, never mind that we NEVER do that type of activity, metaphorically, even.
What we do is that we defend and will always defend truth against folly or advance truth against folly, even if it means that our tone or temper has got to be a little aggressive or pugnacious in the eyes of some others. This response having regard to that particular issue that you so raised therein and having regard to the context in which you wrote.
Where that Taxation question and the raising of state revenue are concerned, when we have more time we will sketch some of the outlines of those matters, again, for the benefit of yourself and others.
Or, better yet, we suggest you visit our website@www.somassfreedem.org, and look up our 2006 Pre-Election Manifesto 2006, for such information, if you have NOT done it before.
Ready Done,
Thanks for the comment. But there are far more important aspects of our policy program than that particular policy that deals with seriously reforming our Hire Purchase culture in Barbados.
So long.
PDC
Hard Driver // July 14, 2009 at 10:41 AM
John,
I was there that day, sitting with my buddies right where the party stand entrance is now … I was there for Lawrence Rowe .. saw the beer bottle barely miss Waugh’s head.. get up at 3.00 am to watch down in India or Aussie land …I’m as true a West Indian fan as you can get .. so you know how this hurts.
People who say that we should split into separate island teams either 1) Aren’t true WI fans 2) Are too young too have experienced the heydays or 3) Are ex pats.
The sad truth is that we have the potential to develop many more like Lara and Sobers and be world beaters once again but for the total ineptitude of the WICB who don’t seem to have one ounce of business acumen between them.
We as tax paying citizens of these islands have a vested interest in our team. We have put millions of tax dollars into building state of the art facilities and all that is happening with them is a benefit match or funeral now and again … MADNESS …
We need a professional league, we need club cricket revitalized, but NOTHING is being done…
Governments MUST intervene …
Georgie Porgie // July 14, 2009 at 10:45 AM
One poster wrote
We just don’t have the love for the game we once had.
We are just not interested anymore.
Perhaps this is the truth.
Earlier in this decade I spent a few months in both St Kitts and Antigua, and rarely saw boys playing bat and ball, as was the case when I was a boy.
Do boys in Barbados still walk a mile or two to a neigbouring village to engage in cricket battles? This once went on all over the island especially in Easter and Summer holidays.
At school we played “test matches at lunch that went on for a week.” When it rained we played kneeling down cricket and blind man cricket. By brother and a deary departed friend played lilliputian cricket with marbles, table tennis balls, limes what ever ….. but we played.
It was from such a love of the game by boys and playing with intensity as often as possible that produced the skills that eventually allowed the much better players to advance to play great cricket and eventually beat the world EVEN WITH THE LOUSY WICBC presiding then.
Certainly the Board is at fault, but clearly too ,our boys are largely into nintendo, computer games and other things that we did not have to distract us as boys.
Sufficient boys are not running and swimming and doing things that we did to develop musculature and endurance. Sufficient boys are just not playing cricket! The current outstanding ones when they advance to higher levels of the game prove to be really mediocre.
When I left Barbados in 2003, more than half of the Barbados team, and now even few of the current “first string” West Indies team could get in a Combined Schoolboys team of the early 60’s, or any first division team of the early 60’s in Barbados.
If you check the records in Cricinfo, the usual WI team contained on average 5-6 Bajans. WI cricket was strong when Barbados cricket was strong, and vice versa.
When you check the records in Cricinfo for inter regional matches in the 50’s and 60’s you will find that the “stars” (or WI players) on BOTH sides used to shine in these games. There were also other “second string” players who pulled thier weight in these games.
How many so called stars even play in regional competitions these days? And when they do, do they shine?
A so called WI second or third string team (the referred top as Colts) could play almost as well as the first team.
One remebers Arthur Bethel getting a century for Barbados Colts in 65 but could not make the first team.
One remembers Shotgun Williams getting a century in 78 vs the Australians on debut when the first team went on strike……….and we can go on.
We are not producing quality cricketers because the pool from which to draw such cricketers has dwindled significantly.
Most of the boys that play primary school cricket dont play at the Under 15 level or Under 19 level. They have dropped out by then.
from
John // July 14, 2009 at 11:09 AM
Hard Driver // July 14, 2009 at 10:41 am
The sad truth is that we have the potential to develop many more like Lara and Sobers and be world beaters once again but for the total ineptitude of the WICB who don’t seem to have one ounce of business acumen between them.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Our team is full of potential.
But potential just sits there waiting to realise itself ….. or maybe it isn’t potential and we are fooling ourselves.
Look at the physical makeup of the people in the crowd and the players themselves back then and you will see that whereas we once produced men, we are now producing boys.
The expressions and bearing of the players are those of boys, not men.
Something is basically wrong and we are missing it. I don’t know what it is but we have lost some sort of spark we once had.
It is gone!!!
That is why I think it is pointless beating ourselves to death, involving governments ….. for what.
I would love to see a strong West Indian side but I just don’t see it happening without that spark that once existed and seems to have now gone.
…. and I don’t want to see something manufactured in someone else’s image.
Look at Pakistan, magic, … foolish one day, sublime the next.
Love it.
Like us at one time.
The alternative is boring SA.
Australia went there and bored me to death.
Almost killed cricket.
I was at Kensington and saw Rowe’s 302 against England, and Sobers and Davis against NZ in the early 70’s when we had collapsed for 133 in the first innings to Bruce Taylor.
I listened to most of the 1975 series on the radio, infact I still have an audio tape of Fredericks at Perth.
Even that series defeat was nothing daunting because I knew we would bounce back … and with a vengence.
… but now, that something is gone, unlikely to return.
Maybe future generations will figure out what it was and resurrect it.
For the moment, our minds are elsewhere.
Johnnie Too Bad // July 14, 2009 at 11:49 AM
It really ain’t too hard to figure out what is going wrong. We have some idiots running West Indies cricket that need going back to school. Cricket has changed from our heyday and as long as you have fools telling the younger players that in their day you could not do this or that, it is just not going to work.
Firstly many on the Board begrudge the younger players that they make more money than they did.
Secondly because you played cricket at international level and was good at it, it does not mean that you will become a good administrator.
Thirdly, because you might have been a good opening batsman or a giant fast bowler it does not mean that you have the vision, foresight or even the common sense to be a forward planner or even the ability to understand the modern game.
Fourthly, since you might have receive a gong for services to cricket, that does not give you a divine right to lead West Indies cricket.
Brian Lara has been one of the greatest cricketers to grace a cricket field, but because of his poor discipline he literally destroyed West Indies cricket and so set the standard for the poor discipline we now endure.
Cricket is the game of the people and until we kick out selectors who are friends of friends and move on to making objective decisions, our cricket will not recover.
Finally, gone are the days when being able to bat and bowl was enough, now a professional cricket needs to be able to read the game and played accordingly First base should be if we cannot win the game , I must try to draw it, but whatever happens we must never lose.
Can you ever see someone like Marshall of Jamaica fitting into such a set up.
And finally we need to fire all cricket writers in the Caribbean, little jokers keep writing about a brilliant 30 or a magnificent 35 ; are we then surprised that our young cricketers set their sights so low? The only brilliant thing about 30 runs is that the batsman failed, he got in, did all the hard work and then threw it away. What crap from journalists who ought to know better.
Johnnietoobad.
Sargeant // July 14, 2009 at 12:09 PM
GP
Too much Xbox; Playstation; Ipod; Gameboy; TV; Internet;Texting etc. Plus the parents have more money so duringn Summer vacation the children are apt to be in London, New York and at easter in St. Lucia; Martinique etc.; nowadays if there is not enough money there is always a Gov’t supported camp.
The days of playing with a “Comper” and no shin protection or an improvised ball made of bicycle inner tube are so yesterday.
To the younger generation cricket is boring; takes too long
Save the “ole Barbados” talk for your grandchildren, us old fogies got to get out of the way of progress.
Where can I find the “wet fete”?
We’ve come a long way baby
The Darkest Day In West Indies Cricket « Barbados Underground · Live Cricket Online // July 14, 2009 at 12:50 PM
[...] Read more from the original source: The Darkest Day In West Indies Cricket « Barbados Underground [...]
Georgie Porgie // July 14, 2009 at 2:13 PM
Exactly Sargeant.
Hence the demise of cricket.
We might as wel stop playing, because we wasting time.
David // July 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM
Agreed cricket is at death’s door but what will replace it, N.American and European sports?
mash up & buy back // July 14, 2009 at 2:42 PM
David
What will happen is that when the people’s republic of China starts to play the game at the test level and starts to dominate the game,then west indies cricket which will by then be on the outside looking in,will be crawling around trying to get back in.
We have already seen some interest shown by the USA and china as well as the middle east.
I believe we will be seeing a change from the traditional cricket playing nations as they now stand.
Technician // July 14, 2009 at 4:24 PM
@ Sergeant and GP……
It is called progress……do you still use a pit toilet?
Cook on wood outside?
Ride a donkey cart?
Dont harp on the youngsters because they love Xbox and nintendo…..geez!
This same progress have you old fogeys here blogging now, before it would have been a discussion at the rum shop.
Always remember who bought the Xbox and the Playstation.
Sargeant // July 14, 2009 at 4:46 PM
Technician
I learnt a lot hanging around the denizens of the Rum Shop. How does that African proverb go again “When an old man dies a library burns down……”
Georgie Porgie // July 14, 2009 at 6:46 PM
@ David
Re Agreed cricket is at death’s door but what will replace it, N.American and European sports?
I don’t think that cricket per se is at death’s door, even though it seems to be dying in the West Indies.
The Aussies have in the last three years lost about six of their best players of the last decade or so, but they were producing worthy replacements all the time.
Cricket is played with much fervour in the East. And there is perhaps more cricket played in Florida alone all year than in the West Indies by expatriots (not counting Dallas, California, NY and other places in the USA.).
@ Technician
I am sure that there is just as much progress or more in Australia. I am sure that they no longer use a pit toilet, or cook on wood outside or ride donkey carts.
The boys down under also love Xbox and nintendo and the Playstation, but they still produce replacements in their cricket team of stature and stamina.
The same cricket team that was beating us to threads all year except for one test match, the Aussies just treated them like wimps! That’s progress and progression! Ah lie?
ezzyfair // July 14, 2009 at 7:10 PM
With all said and done, it truly is disappointing to see that WICB had to resort to such extreme measures to gather a team for the current series. However, it is quiet unfortunate that we have eight teams competing at a regional level and we are unable to pick two more teams that would be competitive on an international level. Clearly, the WICB and nation cricketing bodies have failed our young cricketers.
Regarding the game, Mr Reifer ought to be commend for his performance as captain of such a young team although they lost. Never-the-less, it was still a good performance having been called up to play two days before the match.
Gillian Campbell // July 14, 2009 at 8:49 PM
Hi Dave,
Yes, Friday was a new low for West Indies cricket, but I think our darkest day actually occurred many years ago, when the WICB:
1) Believed that written contracts were unnecessary when negotiating with players
2) Paid players a standard salary, no matter their performance.
The system started to dry-rot from then.
Gillian
Hopi // July 14, 2009 at 9:26 PM
The glory days of ‘cricket,lovely cricket’ are over. Like everything else in life, the BLACK MAN has blazed the trail, we have set the bar and led by example and now its time for us to move onto a higher dimension. Come on boys!
Jah Black // July 14, 2009 at 10:29 PM
People remember and realise that the demise of West Indies cricket began when the majority of our player were prevented from playing county cricket.
To this day, no suitable replacement has been found, that allows our players to hone their skills.
Hard Driver // July 15, 2009 at 12:25 AM
John // July 14, 2009 at 11:09 am
Look at the physical makeup of the people in the crowd and the players themselves back then and you will see that whereas we once produced men, we are now producing boys.
The expressions and bearing of the players are those of boys, not men.
Something is basically wrong and we are missing it. I don’t know what it is but we have lost some sort of spark we once had.
*************************************
You have just hit on my other pet peeve
and that is co-education … it has ruined generations of young men who have been feminized by daily doses of female pampering in schools not to mention fatherless homes.
STINGING NETTLE // July 15, 2009 at 5:55 AM
The disorganization we see “on the cricket field” is only reflection of the general attitude we see in the society.
It starts from the level of our politicians and inter-island cooperation. We can’t get together as a unified group of Caribbean countries, we can’t get along with one another … and it goes from there.
John // July 15, 2009 at 8:01 AM
Jah Black // July 14, 2009 at 10:29 pm
People remember and realise that the demise of West Indies cricket began when the majority of our player were prevented from playing county cricket.
To this day, no suitable replacement has been found, that allows our players to hone their skills.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree with this sentiment to a point but if you look at the greats who played for West Indies you will see they announced themselves without the benefit of County Cricket.
They then got stints in County Cricket because they were good.
Lets say Somerset were looking for a spin bowler and the options were Mendis, Herath and Benn, or a pace bowler and the options were Steyn, Ahktar and Taylor …. need I say more.
All fire and brimstone erupted when Holding was taken to Australia in 1975 …. too young and inexperienced.
Sobers got into the West Indies as a youngster because he earned it.
One year a guy called Ambrose dropped basketball and scared the living daylights out of batsmen from Guyana to Barbados. He earned himself selection on the West Indies team.
True, Richards and Roberts went to the Alf Gover school in the UK but probably only because they were already good.
What is not happening now is we are not seeing players appearing and forcing attention on themselves.
No players come forward who play from the start as though they belong at the highest level.
All the cricket academies in the world can’t produce talent.
What they can do is ensure a steady stream reaches the highest level …. but only if there is an input.
John // July 15, 2009 at 8:11 AM
STINGING NETTLE // July 15, 2009 at 5:55 am
The disorganization we see “on the cricket field” is only reflection of the general attitude we see in the society.
It starts from the level of our politicians and inter-island cooperation. We can’t get together as a unified group of Caribbean countries, we can’t get along with one another … and it goes from there.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
There used to be a place called the West Indies and Britain used to be responsible for a part of it, the British West Indies.
Our leaders talk about integration ad nauseum but the levels of integration achieved under their watch will never approach that achieved in colonial days.
… and it is simply because political integration will never occur.
Every politician wants his own piece of the pie in his own territory and his own cheque book.
In the colonial days, the British West Indies were administered from one place, Britain.
Sure there were inter island rivalries but there was one source of control.
West Indies Cricket is really an aberration of colonial manufacture, but a great one while it lasted.
The Scout // July 15, 2009 at 10:24 AM
To charter a course for W.I cricket, we must first look back to see where we went wrong, then correct the mistakes, before we can plan the future. If aline is off 1/10″ on a line, at the end of the line that distance can be ten times or more off than at the origin. This has been the downfall of W.I cricket.Remember when the then WICBC, who thought they had a unlimited amount of gifted players, started axeing the great players they had,starting with, Gary Sobers, then later with Viv Richards, Mikey Holding, Desmond Haynes, Gordon Greenidge and the list goes on. These modern day cricketers see how these great players were handled by the WICBC, with the interest on CONTROL. The board behave then and is still behaving as though they are the colonial masters and even referred to the players as “the boys,” so take whatever we do to you. Those days have passed. However in saying that, I’m not sating that the WICB or WIPA is in themselves right or wrong. The blame has to be shared by both and I sense some arrogance on both sides with both standing their grounds. Since the players are not apologising, and I agree with them, is the ICC prepared to accept a inadequate team from the W.I? Are the other playing countries willing to accept weakened touring teams that would reflect greatly in a loss of revenue to the host nation? Therefore to call for an apology, which if not given can only make the WICB look worse was downright stupid.
The Scout // July 15, 2009 at 11:05 AM
The way forward for W>I cricket
Since both entities have some skeletons in their closet, let’s clean the slate on both sides. Start a new page.
Desolve the entire board, ask a few respected unbias regional citizens to form the neauclious of the Management Committee.
Ask every regional playing team to send a representative. How that person is chosen left to the particular team, however, my suggestion is that the senior club teams in each region/country have a major say in the selection. These positions are for a period of two years with a further two years if needed. The position of Head of Management committee should be for a period not exceeding four years with one addition period per person.
Players should be selected on performance basis and paid
accordingly, with incentives for outstanding performances.
Coporate enties should be about to invest in this venture and share in profits gained. All players chosen to form the Int team should be contracted and any involvement in any other cricket outside of representing the W.I must be sanctioned by the Management Committee. Contracts and honoring of such contracts must be adhered to. Players must attend regular training camps and or other sessions of development as organised by the Management Committee. There are many other areas where W.I cricket needs to tighten up on but I’m just present my opinion on a start for the reconstitution of this sport so dear to many caribbean people.
The Scout // July 15, 2009 at 11:11 AM
We must bear in mind that the W.I team was formed in the days this countries were all colonies. However, if ever disbanded, we would never be able to come back as a W.I team as we are now mostly seperate nation, hence each one will have to seek membership as seperate Cricket playing countries and none of us are capable enough of doing such, nor would the ICC entertain it.
Red Herring // July 15, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Playing sports today is big money.
You will not get youngsters lining up to play cricket seriously, unless serious money is involved.
The problem with the current West Indies team is that they have been allowed to draw wages without producing for far too long.
The players now hold the belief that, as mediocre as they are, WICB and West Indies cricket need them, for the replacements have not yet arrived.
The only solution now is to “pull stumps” until these replacements arrive.
Doing otherwise, prolongs the pain and misery for the fans of Windies cricket.
Anonymous // July 15, 2009 at 12:15 PM
@The Scout
“We must bear in mind that the W.I team was formed in the days this countries were all colonies. However, if ever disbanded, we would never be able to come back as a W.I team as we are now mostly seperate nation, hence each one will have to seek membership as seperate Cricket playing countries and none of us are capable enough of doing such, nor would the ICC entertain it.” [Why do you believe that the ICC would not entertain it? West Indies would lose full membership, probably, but countries can be associates. There is no British team, but England and Scotland and Wales, and even Jersey are associates and field teams. There is no EU team and belgium, France, Germany, Holland play. Bermuda is an associate and The Bahamas an affiliate. Rebuilding can be done. Is it that you believe that what is done cannot be undone?]
caribbeancomment // July 15, 2009 at 12:24 PM
@The Scout
“We must bear in mind that the W.I team was formed in the days this countries were all colonies. However, if ever disbanded, we would never be able to come back as a W.I team as we are now mostly seperate nation, hence each one will have to seek membership as seperate Cricket playing countries and none of us are capable enough of doing such, nor would the ICC entertain it.” [Why do you believe that the ICC would not entertain it? West Indies would lose full membership, probably, but countries can be associates. There is no British team, but England and Scotland and Wales, and even Jersey are associates and field teams. There is no EU team and belgium, France, Germany, Holland play. Bermuda is an associate and The Bahamas an affiliate. Rebuilding can be done. Is it that you believe that what is done cannot be undone?]
livinginbarbados // July 15, 2009 at 12:36 PM
The region needs to make some tough decisions about what it wants to do collectively and individually as nations. As I’ve said above, there is no real problem in recognizing that the nature and love of cricket has changed and perhaps rolling with that differentiated view by working from the national basis going forward. It could involve a lot few compromises and countries with really limited resources may want to really drive for cricket excellence and lesser achievements elsewhere.
On the reasons for crickets demise, a lot of theories about, but the game and its development has had its cycles for decades. West Indies cricket does not have a good regional developmental structure from schools, through youth outside school, then club level. There are many models that work for other sports and have shown that quick progress can be made. The US experience with soccer is one model that is easy to see in our region. The UK French, German, Italian and Spanish approaches are all different but have managed to keep a steady flow of players coming through from schoolboy to full international level. For those who really want to see what can happen with yet another set of approaches look at Ghana and Nigeria. So, examples we do not lack. Cohesion we do not have. We may be struggling for resources and that may push some countries to band together rather than go it alone.
Putting heads into the sand and reminiscing about the past wont help build for the future.
It’s not clear that what boys are attracted now makes much difference to their ability to play well. If it does matter, then you have to explain why that does not seem to hold for other sports and in other regions.
As for the impact of co-education, that’s a straw clutched at for so many ills. Again, if it matters in the region why are our children we so peculiar as to be different from children who develop in other Continents?
livinginbarbados // July 15, 2009 at 12:37 PM
Correction:
On the reasons for CRICKET’S demise, a lot of theories ABOUND…
livinginbarbados // July 15, 2009 at 12:38 PM
Caribbeancomment=LIB (it’s a wordpress.com default).
The Scout // July 15, 2009 at 2:28 PM
There is no more West Indies, as colonies, therefore there will be no West Indies as a cricket team if it is disbanded. These little big rocks in the caribbean can never have and maintain competitive cricket teams individually. Imagine T&T playing Barbados in a three match TEST series; NEVER. What is happening with cricket in the region is just a reflection of what is happening in regional politics, lots of wrangling and arrogance cpupled with lots of underhand dealing with little transparentcy
Tired of Crap // July 15, 2009 at 10:43 PM
Something was lost in translation. Has WICB called for the extinction of WIPA or just BU? It is interesting that you use the words “WIBC is currently the entity charged with the responsibility to lead West Indies cricket to the banks of safety”. Having read the response by WIPA in the Nation newspaper of Wednesday July 15th, I think we need to ask for greater transparency from the WICB on the state of their finances. After the news broke about the ponzi scheme run by Stanford, questions were asked about whether 20/20 players had invested their earnings with Sir Alan. Have we asked those same questions of the WICB? Based on the issues identified by WIPA in today’s Nation, WICB seems to be having grave financial challenges. I have to agree that WIPAs actions have been hostile, but sportsmen need representation and any call to make it obsolete is myopic.
Valleta // July 15, 2009 at 11:11 PM
Hi , new to this blog so excuse any paragraphical errors.What is the cause of this current dispute?If I’m wrong correct me , but if it is true that the players were not payed since they were in New Zealand last year , it is inexcusable on the WICB to expect them to continue like this. As far as I know , there must be some contracts signed with the agreed upon sums that they are to be paid. So withstanding any performance based clause WIPA would be in the right to strike for payments not received. The WICB only made things worse by asking for an apology which they would not deserve.That is arrogant and childish.Even more arrogant and childish to field a team of any rabble you can find at short notice. My advice , get rid of the WICB altogether , as it too full of tzars and kingpins and replace it with a more transparent , less bankrupt entity , with a more Meritocratic modus operendi. As for the next match put some more batsmen that can play spin , at least two.
David // July 16, 2009 at 1:28 AM
@Valleta
Speaking subject to correction but it is our understanding WIPA is disputing playing without contracts and not being paid.
Living in Barbados // July 16, 2009 at 4:48 AM
@The Scout
“There is no more West Indies, as colonies, therefore there will be no West Indies as a cricket team if it is disbanded. These little big rocks in the caribbean can never have and maintain competitive cricket teams individually. Imagine T&T playing Barbados in a three match TEST series; NEVER. What is happening with cricket in the region is just a reflection of what is happening in regional politics, lots of wrangling and arrogance cpupled with lots of underhand dealing with little transparentcy” [Oh yea of little faith, I could say. Yes, brand “West Indies’ would be gone from cricket. But, if what you say is true then we should really and truly question all of the money spent of fielding national teams in international competitions, because your argument says “We can’ beat dem…” But Jamaica and Trinidad made it to the World Cup finals. The nations show their best can be the best in the Olympics, World Track Championships, Commonwealth Games, and more. If the bar is really too high then I would still say reach for it. A sense of regionalism should not stifle nationalism, and there are differences (some would say quite large in the national approaches in the region). Jamaica has found a way to nurture certain sporting talents. So, have the very small islands such as St Kitts and Antigua. We must try to see that as small as we are we can become bigger and better. Are we too timid to try?
I think (subject to correction) that we are the only group of countries that wants to band together as a region in a particular sport.
The Scout // July 16, 2009 at 9:09 PM
L.I.B
Obviously, you know nothing about the structure of Int. cricket. It is not like joining a club. When Barbados or any of the little islands here in the region applies for membership, they would have to satisfy the ICC that they can produce and maintain a competitive team. This would have to happen over a sustained period of time, could be ten, fifteen years, before the team reaches test status. There are countries who have been trying for many years to reach test status and have not even gotten close. Right now, the ICC is advocating demoting the W.I team to a new so-called “b” grade test status. If the entire W.I team barely making test status, tell me how can individual countries make it?
The Scout // July 16, 2009 at 9:18 PM
Indications are that if Julian Hunte regain the position as head of WICB, Digicel will withdraw their sponsorship. Even since the impass with Hunte and the WICB over the Stanford issue, Digicel’s chairman O’brien, threatened to back out unless Hunte was removed as chairman. Now with the bad publicity the team is getting, Digicel is telling the WICB, get their act together or else. The problem is that Lime (C&W) is not interested in because of the way they were treated in the switch to Digicel
Livinginbarbados // July 16, 2009 at 9:59 PM
@The Scout
“Obviously, you know nothing about the structure of Int. cricket.”
[I know when people cannot move radically and look to tinker at the edges. The structure of international cricket is not radically different from the structure of most international sports. It has it rules and its thresholds and they can be met or not. Many of the national structure can meet the criteria, as we are well established cricketing nations. If the regional team is due to be demoted then that makes more of an argument for letting individual countries move as they wish. I do not believe that the regional teams that have been chosen for most of the past decade represent the best that can be put out; they involved too many compromises. So, if we have not been fielding the best by going regional, what is the gain from continuing with that structure?
Nothing to fear but fear itself.
The Scout // July 16, 2009 at 10:26 PM
LIB
Where is this reservoir of cricketers to come from? Many years ago when we have genuine test cricketers, even with Barbados having as many as eight or nine players on the W.I test team at any one time, we could not sustain that over a long period of time. Each of these countries are too small, we don’t have the depth of players to choose from, even if we only played cricket alone. Let’s face reality, I know we like thinking that we are just as good as anyone else but sometimes we also make a fool of ourselves. Look at Australia, South Africa, India, Barbados will fit into these countries thousands of times, yet these countries find it hard sometimes to be competitive. Each of them have a population of millions, we only have 1/4 million, tell me how can we compete? Are our players made of superior material?
The Scout // July 16, 2009 at 10:28 PM
LIB
Would you challenge a wild lion to a fight?
Themis // July 16, 2009 at 10:38 PM
I’m with the Scout on this one, Themis. Separate West Indian teams will be of nothing but nuisance value in the sport for a good few years…and that could be costly. I see the logic of your argument but I fail to see what purpose fission would serve for the sake of cricket.
livinginbarbados // July 16, 2009 at 10:40 PM
@The Scout: Admitted the pool for our countries will not be as deep as for larger countries, but that is already the case. You still build to compete as best you can and may have to accept that we are lesser grade. But the sport is also changing and the trend toward limited over helps narrow the differences. As I said, if we do not believe our nations can compete individually in what is supposed to be one of our strengths who have we been fooling with national teams being sent out in other sports?
Themis // July 16, 2009 at 10:42 PM
That vocative should have been of course LIB not Themis!
livinginbarbados // July 16, 2009 at 10:43 PM
@The Scout: Challenge a wild lion? David beat Goliath…
livinginbarbados // July 16, 2009 at 10:53 PM
@Themis: Part of the resistance to dismantling WI as a team comes from the time it takes to rebuild, but I am not saying you start now and assume an equivalent position. I look at how transitions have come about. Perhaps my perspective is tainted by seeing and knowing and playing on teams that began as nothing/lesser but rose to challenge the best. Look at the USA in soccer (maybe size helps but structure and development did too). Look at European premier leagues in soccer and the teams that rose in the past 10 years from lowly to higher status? I see nothing hallowed about cricket development. I see it in the context of a medium term that could be worked on over say 5 years.
Valletta // July 17, 2009 at 2:21 AM
What separate or dismantle the team and build the team from scratch are you talking about , that’s ignoring the problem not fixing it. Akin to dismantling the Great Pyramids and rebuilding from scratch. It may be ancient and ruined but it stood the test of time. United we stand ; Divided we fall. Pay the men their fees and bring back a first rate team. The blame here may go both ways , but it is the WICB who has been charged with central planning for W.I cricket and to allow things to unhinge like this? Now we produce a SECOND rate WEST INDIES TEAM (oh for the glory days) which cannot even NEGATE Bangladesh , the shame. I’d be willing to wager that New Zealand , ranked just below us , would field a more prepared and capable second rate team. Hell just about anyone else would , Bangladesh is the weakest team. Now some say disband and disintegrate in total route , leaving our leading team to go stand in the corner because of WICB’S hurt hubris. If they had any ounce of honor they would see the urgent need to field a team of the best the ENTIRE region has to offer and not second or third rate. If this is what the people will stand for , an arrogant board who’s hurt pride comes first even if the name of WEST INDIES cricket must be brought even lower , leaders who cannot see a problem that needs to be urgently fixed and fixed once and for all , then they should prepare for a maiden series win by BANGLADESH over WEST INDIES. This trend of lacking leadership is occurring worldwide where their motto is “all for one and none for the rest”. So dismantle , flee to the winds , but the Bengal Tiger smells blood and is moving in for the kill. They will not let this opportunity to whitewash W.I slip their grasps. They are up for a chase , they are chasing glory while we run from it.
The Scout // July 17, 2009 at 8:10 AM
LIB
Dismantling the WI team and trying toi go individually is harder than giving an average 5 year old all the tools needed and ask that child to assemble a high powered racing car; impossible. Any one can’t just wake up one morning and decide they are going to participate in the 100 m against Bolt.
The Scout // July 17, 2009 at 8:13 AM
LIB
We seem to be on two seperate wave lengths, therefore, just let us agree to disagree.
Livinginbarbados // July 17, 2009 at 8:59 AM
@The Scout
Agreed that we agree to disagree. I do not expect much support for my view, but it also goes deeper than the sport, or one sport, and looks at what is really involved in being nations rather than colonies, and the logic that this imposes. But, let’s put that onto a shelf for another day.
Whatever progress we may wish to see we have to ask if we have people and institutions capable of making that possible. Ethics and principles are things that are sadly lacking in many regional/national institutions and, I believe, that what we see in cricket is a microcosm of the malaise in those aspects. Whatever form the future takes it will be as fragile as these missing elements allow it to be.
Livinginbarbados // July 17, 2009 at 9:09 AM
@The Scout
“Any one can’t just wake up one morning and decide they are going to participate in the 100 m against Bolt” [Agreed. But, I think we have very different time frames in mind. Bolt was not born the fastest in the world and had to work to that objective. I do not envisage, nor think realise that one can slide over from ‘now’ to ‘then’ with no loss. But one of our/the problems is in not having visions and building toward them.
Likewise, using your image, Bolt was inspired by others from the past, and he will inspire others in the future. Having coached and formed teams, you take the decade/10,000 hours view (now popularised by Malcolm Gladwell in his book ‘Outliers’) . There is no instant success, like there is no instant failure. Both are processes and have their drivers.
But, we are still agreed to disagree.
Livinginbarbados // July 17, 2009 at 9:11 AM
Correction: …think realisTIC…
The Scout // July 17, 2009 at 9:20 AM
Both sides in this impasse are playing hardball. What is interesting however is the fact that WICB and WIPA has gone to arbitration seven times and WICB has lost everything. Plus they have not honored the ruling of the arbitration committee. Also, the chairman of Digicel, the sponsorers, have threaten to withdraw their sponsorship and even recommend that the Chairman of the WICB be fired, yet nothing has been done. PJ Paterson’s report has made some revolutioary suggestions to save WI cricket which includes the disbandoning of the board and it has been ignored. It is obvious that the WICB intend to take WI cricket to the grave with them and it is all because of colonial arrogance.
I remember many years ago, I was a boxing judge, a senior judge once told me he deducts points from a boxer if his cloths are not tucked in properly and his hair combed and he looks neat. Mike Tyson could have never won a fight with him judging unless he knocks out him opponent; colonial thinking. I hear soime oldsters complaining now because the new style of the shirts in cricket allow the shirts to be worn on the outside.
The Scout // July 17, 2009 at 9:22 AM
They criticise Chris Gayle’s hair style but the white guys with their long hair on their shoulders is O.K
Livinginbarbados // July 17, 2009 at 9:32 AM
@The Scout
Of course, unless the clothes or hair, etc. materially affect the performance, they are as irrelevant as the colour of the eyes, or underpants, or the nature of the manicure. Not substance. Pure style.
David // July 17, 2009 at 10:37 AM
Based on reports in the media Chairman of Caricom Jagdeo will meet with WIPA today to see how stakeholder governments can broker some resolution to the current impasse between the WIBC and WIPA. There is a hollow ring to this saga as it begins to panout.
Valletta // July 17, 2009 at 1:01 PM
It’s all over now. Those JOKERS at WICB have not read the game and have failed to place more batsmen that can play spin in the team or do the needed batsmen refuse to play. The signs are there when even Nash , who’s naval string is buried elsewhere , shows solidarity with WIPA but the Reifer Team has betrayed the strike. Mostly comprised of Bajans , where is their PRIDE and industry. Will wait and see if the W.I can SURVIVE the day. Don’t get me wrong I support this team even if less than the GAYLE TEAM and I wouldn’t like to see them fail , especially to Bangladesh.I would feel it like any true Antillian of the Lesser Antilles ( west indies has always sounded too colonial to me , and indies too east indian when they are not the majority and caricomite or caricomedian or caricomman just aren’t proper adjectives that appeal to me).
Sargeant // July 18, 2009 at 12:36 AM
LIB
Since you referenced Gladwell, this latest fiasco is “The Tipping Point”. WI cricket is on a downward spiral from which it may never recover.
Livinginbarbados // July 18, 2009 at 4:00 AM
@Sargeant
I’m not sure that the latest fiasco makes the WI cricket circumstances Gladwellian–it’s no ‘little thing’ that’s going wrong now. But, let’s agree that we have the makings of a major change.
My observations are that only gradual change can come from ’stable’ conditions; you need ‘chaos’ or ‘catastrophe’ to effect major change. In the Caribbean there is often pride in having created stability. Almost by definition we see that change cannot be radical. I also believe that life is about challenges and turning negatives into positives, rather than just a series of problems that are not overcome.
My views are about effecting a certain kind of change, and I have seen it work in bigger and tougher circumstances.
Mixing methaphors again, it’s like figuring out if the home you want will be better built around the existing structure or if you need to pull down and start again or some combination.
I look back across the Ocean and see sport sets up that are the result of teams that were consigned to the waste heap, even put out of total existence, some 30-40 years ago, which have since come back and regained important standing. The world in which they now play is not that of the 1960s/70s, but they are also not the team of the 1960s/70s. Many of the so-called ‘greatest’ teams have gone through some radical changes to ’stay on top’, not all choosing the same route by any stretch of the imagination.
As with The Scout, we can agree to disagree.
Sargeant // July 18, 2009 at 9:40 AM
LIB
Those teams that were consigned to the “waste heap” did not face the same constraints as the WI team. Some of those teams were community based teams or national teams with a natural base of supporters and patriots who were obligated to support their local or national team. The WI cricket team is nominally national but operates under the direction of people with loyalties to the island of their birth or their political patron. It is hampered by a Board whose members are a perfect example of the “Peter Principle” and players who are the epitome of selfishness. The selection of the team is seen through the eyes of insularism and the results seem to confirm the fans outlook. Winning tends to obliterate any faults but a prolonged losing cycle will generate long term disinterest. When cricket was all we had the players and fans were a given, but young people have a variety of activities to choose from and given the availability of technology and affluence many fans can and will look for other means to satisfy their sporting appetites.
I would be surprised if the WI cricket administrators knew who the fans are; many of my peers in North America make trips down to the Caribbean to watch cricket, you can be certain that our children will not have the same attitude towards the game. Does the WICB know the make up of the local fans that attend games and support the team? Is it comprised mainly of the “Baby Boomer” generation as I suspect? If so how do they plan to rekindle interest in a younger crowd? If you listen to the “call in” shows where cricket is central to the discussion most of the callers are people of a certain age bracket, cricket is not on the younger peoples’ radar.
You know you are in trouble when your team becomes part of a comedian’s monologue or when your email is inundated with jokes about your team.
This now casual fan can take it or leave it. I choose to leave it
Livinginbarbados // July 18, 2009 at 11:13 AM
@Sargeant
“Those teams that were consigned to the “waste heap” did not face the same constraints as the WI team….” [There is not much in your assessment with which I would disagree. But on “Some of those teams were community based teams or national teams with a natural base of supporters and patriots who were obligated to support their local or national team.” I wont go with ‘obligated’, But you touch on ‘natural base’, and that is part of my rationale about building on the national foundation. All you say after, about WI cricket and its administration I concur with.
I too am one who could leave it, but I posit that the ashes (bad pun?) could be something from which to rebuild, if there are those who wish to undertake that. We could of course all leave it and focus on other things (eg sports from which we could open better educational doors for our youth, focus on technology development…), which is also an option to which I might lend support.
Comments I hear show no faith in WICB (and that has been the case for a very long time). Why are they still in place? WIPA is in some senses the adversary that was created to treat with WICB but the latter is a law unto itself, and we know where that usually leads.
Time to focus on more uplifting things, so I will bail out (another bad pun?).
The Scout // July 19, 2009 at 5:22 PM
I understand fro usually good sources, that some top W.I players are being asked to join the new U.S.A Twenty 20 tournament that should get going sometimw next year. If this happens W.I cricket would be crippled, since the U.S tend to talk big money for their sportsmen. I think this is a follow on to the Stanford tournament which a new company in U.S.A is taking up.
The WICB had a chance to run with the same Stanford concept but dragged their feet.
The Scout // July 19, 2009 at 5:24 PM
Some other top players from other countries are being targeted but the only one biting so far are the W.I
The Scout // July 20, 2009 at 6:46 PM
The make shift W.I team has just been humiliated by no less a team than Bangledash. Is the WICB and the WIPA so arrogant that they would both continue to play hardball and future embarrass not only the W I team but the fans also? From the time I was a little boy in Sir Frank Worrell’s day, I have supported the W.I team. Even through their bad times now, I’ve supported them. That support comes to an abrupt end now, if this same team is forced to continue and face further humiliation. I will find another sport to follow.
The Scout // July 21, 2009 at 8:41 AM
There is a question that used to be asked to the limbo dancers, “how low can you go.” The W.I cricket administration is not doing the limbo, they are doing the crawl, and right now they are on their guts and still trying to go further down. I thought that being “white or black or coolie washed” by Bangledash was the lowest, now T&T is taling about pulling out. It is obvious the grave is now being dug.
Anonymous // July 22, 2009 at 4:54 AM
I hope west indians are watching how race and apanjaat (ie stick with your own race),always factors in when you are dealing with an indian.
Look carefully to see the time when ramnarine decided to seek caricom’s intervention.
It was when you had an indian prime minister as the head – jagdeo.
Look to who was selected to mediate – shridath ramphal.
Suddenly with jagdeo being given some good P.R. we now have the players association representative agreeing to a quick resolution,and a guyanese indian who declared that the majority black country ( Barbados) which offered him a home but he nows describes as practising ethnic cleansing – is now the mediator.
Perhaps now he might suggest more indians on the W.I. cricket team.
Themis // July 22, 2009 at 5:42 AM
You are hopelessly catching at straws to ignite a non-existent fire, Anonymous! Come off it!
Anonymous // July 22, 2009 at 5:59 AM
Themis
Simple.Prove me wrong or shut up.
Themis // July 22, 2009 at 6:39 AM
Ok, do you want the “Indians” out of the Wea st Indies team? What are Ramphal’s qualities as a mediator? Could Ramnarine have chosen a different time to have the current controversy settled? Remain Anonymous, do!
David // July 22, 2009 at 6:40 AM
In light of Ramphal’s ethnic cleansing statement this gentleman’s appointment to mediate does smack of insensitivity. He did admit he was wrong by basing his comment on a Nationa newspaper report when a man of his prominence could have used other ways to corroborate.
Themis // July 22, 2009 at 6:44 AM
Ramphal did not assert that there was ethnic cleansing? He said that there were intimations of such. If I say that there are intimations of racism/ethnicism on BU am I saying that BU is racist/ethnicist?
David // July 22, 2009 at 6:56 AM
@Themis
The assert was dishonest by Ramphal in the context of the discussion. He based his statement on a newspaper report and that is the flawed premise which he acted on which displayed disingenuity. You don;t even have to factor that he is a diplomatic actor who is Guyanese and careless words would have obviously inflamed a situation in the context of Caricom relations.
The Scout // July 22, 2009 at 8:20 AM
The real question, as far as I’m concerned, is why the WIPA was the one to ask Caricom for help. The WICB is the one that benefits most from regional governments and they seemed prepared to pull W.I cricket and by expension the whole region down. Had the WICB approach Caricom, in the first case, W.I would have PROBABLY been better represented in the series against Bangledash.
Anonymous // July 22, 2009 at 11:17 AM
@Themis (LIB): I said some time ago that “intimations” would be forget. Popular use has already replaced it with “practising”. Should he have sought to use other channels to corroborate. Probably. Would it have helped? Can’t say. The PM first said there were no raid then changed that to clarify the context. (I need to revisit those news reports, but can I verify them. Try checking with GIS. I defy anyone to show me a clear government statement at or near the time.)
“
David // July 22, 2009 at 12:22 PM
Even if the government bungled the PR on the amnesty you have not provided any good reason why Sir Shridath Ramphal should have maded the statement he did based on a Nation newspaper report.
livinginbarbados // July 25, 2009 at 5:00 AM
Some of us have agreed to disagree on ways forward for WI cricket. I just offer the link to a story of a once famous/mighty sporting outfit that wallowed for over 30 years far from the top flight, but who this season will be back there, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/sports/soccer/25soccer.html?_r=1&hp. The story of Burnley Football Club is not unique but has some bigger lessons. If you want to read of its history (founded in around 1890), the Wikipedia version is quite good.
Burnley FC’s fate has matched closely the fate of the town through economic times. The club was always renowned for excellent scouting of talent and training. It survived for a long time by playing well and developing well young players who were sold to bolster finances. Some of the greatest players in the English game came through the Burnley ’system’. The club had to survive always in the shadows of ‘mightier’ big city clubs (like the two Manchester clubs, Liverpool and Everton), even when they were champions. Those mightier clubs would often be much more attractive financially and in terms of possible success. Burnley also had to stave off competition from a range of nearby professional clubs, who had mixed fortunes. (If you do not know the map of English soccer, just look at a map of Lancashire to see the many professional clubs there.)
Survival in English soccer is not like in the US, where the organizing bodies aim to help parity by the draft system or the moving of teams around the country. Teams have to work for it all themselves.
Moral: If you can only visualize your destiny a few short steps ahead you will never reach very far.
Two thoughts have gone through my mind in recent weeks. Access to English county cricket was a boon to WIndies at a key time. When it was less available what was done to fill the gap? We continued to plough resources into producing sugar when our costs of production were well in excess of world prices but our sales were made possible by EU subsidies. We did little to adjust to life without those subsidies even though the EU had clearly set out the timetable for their withdrawal. When the subsidies ended, we cried ‘foul’ or ‘help’.
I don’t think our regional record on foresight and planning is very good. Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted is too common. Worse still is letting the horse bolt and not doing anything about the gaping stable door. I think the region is good at both. Cricket is just the latest example.
Just food for thought.
Sargeant // July 25, 2009 at 10:23 AM
LIB
The club had to survive always in the shadows of ‘mightier’ big city clubs (like the two Manchester clubs, Liverpool and Everton
***********************************
I have very little knowledge of the UK but I think that you’ve redrawn the map and relocated those two teams.
Sargeant // July 25, 2009 at 10:37 AM
As far as the WICB is concerned the dispute is still on,. Michael Holding’s comments on this group of officials are very relevant.
One step forward two steps backward the dance continues
http://www.nationnews.com/news/local/WI-big-boys-in-the-cold-FRONT-PAGE-OTHER
livinginbarbados // July 25, 2009 at 11:02 AM
@Sargeant
“The club had to survive always in the shadows of ‘mightier’ big city clubs (like the two Manchester clubs, Liverpool and Everton
***********************************
I have very little knowledge of the UK but I think that you’ve redrawn the map and relocated those two teams.” [I that that the English syntax confused you. The sentence means the two Manchester clubs (- City and – United Football Clubs), AND Liverpool and Everton Football Clubs). Those are the (4) big city clubs I had in mind.
However, you can have the georgraphy lesson attached, for good measure,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancashire#Geography. You will see or discover that almost every adminstrative area of Lancashire has at least one professional club. Hope it’s clear now.
The Scout // July 26, 2009 at 5:38 PM
I have just watched a further humiliation of the W.I team or should I say Worse Indies team. If the WICB has any real interest in W.I cricket and not in themselves, they would stop playing hardball because all that is happening is the Worse Indies team plus the diehard W.I supporters are ALL embarrassed. The strongest team MUST now play in the next two ODI’s to salvage some pride in WI cricket, if any pride is left. I see a white, black, or coolie wash for the W.I if this present makeshift team continues and this will cause the breakup of WI cricket as we knew it. I for sure will not watch anymore cricket, period, if the WICB continues with this team.
The Scout // July 26, 2009 at 5:49 PM
I realise the WICB is vindictive and arrogant and is a law unto themselves. I also realise that they don’t listen to anyone who disagrees with them. However, I would make my suggestions to them. From the present makeshift team, i would retain Dave Bernard Jr, Sammy and Roach. I would them play the others from the original team, if any ofthem fail to produce, then I would replace them with player like, Philips, Richards,Dowlin and maybe Best from the makeshift team. There are others who are still in line for inclusion but an “A” team should be chosen and allowed to gel and use them as the “replacement of players team.” This is embarrassing to the entire region and jst cannot be allowed to continue
David // July 26, 2009 at 5:51 PM
@The Scout
The problem will not be solved even if the WI best team returns at win.
Themis // July 26, 2009 at 5:54 PM
Best? Why? He got 2 wickets at a cost of 96 runs each in the Test series!
The Scout // July 26, 2009 at 5:54 PM
Can anyone see a similarity between the WICB and the BLP? They both seem to have their self interest at heart and can not see the big picture. The WICB seem willing to pull W.I cricket to the mire and the BLP seems to be willing to do the same to Barbados. Both the bajans and the W.I fans would like to see a coming together of the two parties in their different crises to solve simple problems but arrogance is a brut.
The Scout // July 26, 2009 at 6:05 PM
David
I agree the problem will not be solved, even if the best team plays and wins. The only way this problem can be solved is if a NEW REVOLUTIONARY body is formed, with much input from regional governments. The new playing conditions should be similar to Australia’s. I would play the players on a basic scaled salary and give incentives. Contracts should be over a two or four year period. Irrespective of how the player is, if he continues to fail over a given time , he would be replaced by the player who merits the play
Themis
You are right. I don’t know why I mentioned Best but then if the WICB can recall Powell, then Best should also be allowed to further embarrass us.
livinginbarbados // August 9, 2009 at 7:01 AM
Given the position I have taken, I was very interested to read Tony Cozier’s piece “Breakup, to what end?” in today’s Sunday Sun, http://www.nationnews.com/news/sports/cozier-column-AUG-9-copy-for-web, which highlights the steps of at least Trinidad and Tobago to ‘go it alone’. I think his ventilation on the topic suggests that it is not all poppycock, though clearly not everyone’s cup of tea.
I bow to Tony’s superior knowledge on the game, but that does not mean that his conclusions are right. A very good read, though.