What Does The Bible Really Say About The Sons Of Abraham – And What Will It Take For This Dysfunctional Family To Become As One?

Submitted by Terence Blackett

In the book of Isaiah 60: 6, 7 the prophet says:

“The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah: all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense: and they shall forth the praises of the Lord.. All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance upon mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.”

To first of all understand these two verses, we must first be able to explain and understand what or who is Midian, Ephah, Sheba, Kedar and Nebaioth based on Biblical history.

In Genesis 25, we discover something very unique in the Word of God. Many well-meaning theologians, pastors and teachers ignore the Scriptures or simply are blind sided by prejudice as to what God is trying to say and show.

Most Christians today understand and are taught that Abraham had 2 lines of posterity. In actual fact, Abraham had 3 lines.

Let us start with Midian. As you read Gen. 25:1-2, the Bible says:

“Now Abraham married again, Keturah was his new wife and she bore him several children: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. And Jokshan had two sons Sheba and Dedan… The sons of Midian were Ephah and Epher…all these were the children of Keturah…”


It is important to note that Abraham’s [3] lines of descendants are pivotal to the plan of salvation, although heretical teachings to the contrary would have us believe that because Abraham bequeathed all that he had to Isaac the child of promise that it meant that Abraham’s seed (which according to Almighty God) would be like the sands upon the sea shore – we must conclude that the Abrahamic promised blessings also included all of his posterity.

What was distinctive about Isaac’s line or future genealogy would be that God choose this line to bring Messiah Yeshua into the world. However we must understand that this line would be interspersed and intermarried over the next 2000 years right up to the coming of Mary who was to be the one who would bear the Holy Child Jesus.

Abraham’s first wife Hagar bore him Ishmael; Sarah bore Isaac and Keturah bore him Midian. These lines are crucial to our understanding of Bible prophecy and how God is working out the plan of salvation through Abraham’s seed –  heirs of a promise made by God to all those who believe – whether Jew or Gentile, rich or poor, bond or free…

So we have established that Abraham’s posterity based on Isaiah rendition of the sacred history shows that his [3] sons and grandsons from their respective mothers – we now come to Ishmael’s first born – Nebaioth and Kedar his brother.

We have been taught for most of our Christian lives of the line of Sarah from which Isaac came and the resulting historical record of the Jewish people. The ignorance of allowing the other [2] lines of Abraham to exist in virtual obscurity without paying the necessary attention to the part that they play in the prophetic scheme of things is the reason why God is now allowing the eyes of those who are seeking revelation, light and present truth from the Word of God to bring this knowledge to the forefront of the minds of men.

Jesus Christ cannot return to earth until there is unity amongst the children of Abraham based on the covenant God made with him. The fulfilment of that covenant extend to every man, woman and child of Abraham who will come into the promise by faith in Jesus Christ regardless of religious persuasion, race or creed.

In Isaiah 60: 7, the 2nd son of Ishmael – Kedar came first and then Nebaioth the firstborn came second according to word from the prophet. Why is this?

In a similar twist of fate, we see Isaac beget two sons, Esau and Jacob. Esau was the firstborn – but sells his birthright to his brother Jacob. So Jacob becomes first and Esau becomes second. Have you noticed the parallels? Is God doing something interesting here? Whether you or I want to believe it, He sure is doing something or is allowing something to teach us a poignant lesson.

Jesus reminds us that the “first shall be last – and the last shall be first”. What does this means? And how can we apply this within the context of our understanding of religious matters today in our world?

It is important to note that the [3] lines of Abraham actually became [2]. Sarah’s line through Isaac became the [12] tribes of Israel and the children of Hagar & Keturah became the people of the EAST as they dwelt together… This is a very important distinction!

Whenever God refers to the people of the EAST, He is earmarking the sons and daughters of Abraham – not a separate and distinct group (though in essence, they were) but as a nation of people who had not been relegated to the side lines or had been forgotten.

It is important to open up from the Word of God and show decisively and distinctly who the ARAB people are – the sons of Ishmael, Midian and the others.

This is probably going to be the most controversial exegetical exposition of divine Biblical revelation ever seen from the Word of God and there are some who will be offended by this Scriptural discourse as it belies their inherent prejudices concerning the Bible.

We know from the record that Israel was founded on the basis of its [12] tribes. Is there anywhere else in Scripture where God speaks of tribes of peoples?

In Gen: 25 verses 13 through 16, we see clearly from the record that there are also [12] princes (tribes) based on the peoples of the EAST. Is this some freak of nature or some fluke of history that Isaac has [2] sons and the first becomes last and the last becomes first? Ishmael has [2] sons – Nebaioth and Kedar; the first become last and the last becomes first. Jacob has [12] sons who become the [12] tribes of Israel and Ishmael’s [12] sons become the princes from which the [12] tribes of the EAST arise.

Is this coincidence or is God doing something? YOU DECIDE!

Many within the Christian world do not accept that God alone is the only purveyor of absolute truth. He alone has the right to speak to whomever he wants and in whatever way He so chooses.

False teachings have made us callous in our understand and have shut us into a vacuum of exclusivity where we believe that God can only speak to a specific kind of person while dismissing the others because of whatever reasons. We forget that Christ came to save all. So God will speak to the Chinese, the Indian, the Muslim, the Buddhist – whoever He wants to reach, He will extend a hand to lead and guide men into the truth.

In the story of Joseph, he was sold into Egypt by his brothers. His brothers wanted initially to kill him but they decided to sell him to the Ishmaelites. The Bible says that a band of Midianite traders came by and so they pulled him out the pit and sold him. Is the Bible creating some confusion here in this context?

From this historical frame, we can see clearly where both the children of Hagar and the children of Keturah were living together – as the traders in spices, silks and other forms of merchandize, they are the ones who took Joseph from his brothers in lieu of the fact that down in Egypt, they could fetch a handsome price for him because of his physical stature. Joseph was not ill-treated by his distant cousins but was so well-fed and watered that on arrival in Egypt, Potiphar took him into his house because of his physical beauty and stature.

In a similar story, Moses’ brethren were fighting amongst themselves and he intervened and was asked if he wanted to kill them the same way he had killed the Egyptian earlier.

There is a line that seems to run through Scripture where brother wants to kill brother. This started in Eden. Clearly Moses’ brothers hated him and wanted him killed. The Pharaoh loved Moses as his own son because he was the son of his daughter. But when the news reached the Pharaoh of what had happened Moses ran off into Midian because his brethren brought bad news (false witness/gossip) into the royal court.

So for the next 40 years Moses lived in the land of Midian. Jethro – the priest of Midian became Moses’ father in law.

Many religious writers and scholars wrote books on Jethro claiming that he was an idol worshipper. But the Bible does not say that, neither does it infer it. Actually, Moses learns about the “TRUE” God from his father-in-law Jethro. For while, the children of Israel had lost their spiritual identity after 400 years in Egypt and where no priesthood existed, Jethro was a priest on to God, worshipping Him according to what had be laid down in ages past by the Spirit that had spoken through Abraham and his posterity.

When the Israelites were without the knowledge of the One True God, the children of Midian (the people of the EAST) were keeping the Sabbaths, carrying out the functions of the priesthood and worshipping the One True God.

When the Bible speaks of Ishmael being a wild donkey, it is speaking of the freedoms which the peoples of the EAST enjoyed unlike the children of Israel who were in captivity for 400 years.

There is an interesting paradox in the Word of God where Jethro – the priest of Midian relates to Moses a story of a man called Job. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone person so clearly detailed as to their possessions in the way that Job was. It was almost an accounting ledger of his assets down to the last minutiae.

Job chapter 1 verse 1- 3 says that this man was perfect and upright before God and stayed away from evil. The Bible says that this man was the greatest of all the men of the EAST. Was Job an Israelite? Clearly the answer is a resounding – NO!

He was a descendant from the line of either Ishmael or of the sons of Keturah. The story of Job was a popular story amongst those who lived in the EAST. The wealth of Job plus his righteous acts was common knowledge amongst the [12] tribes of the EAST.

So God used Jethro in the 40 years Moses lived with him to bring him into a knowledge of who God was and it became preparation for his Burning Bush experience; the deliverance and salvation of the Israelite tribes and the experiences for another [40] years wandering around the wilderness in search of the land that God would ultimately bring them into.

This line we have been discussing regarding how the Israelite people always wanted to kill or killed their own brothers. From Joseph who became the saviour of the nation in a time of unbelievable famine, to Moses their deliverer who was kept, taught and sheltered by his brethren in the EAST, to all the prophets who were killed from Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah to John the Baptist.

Then came Jesus – The Son of Man, the son of Mary and they took him too and murdered Him on a cross because He claimed to be the Son of God.

When we look at the genesis of the Christian church in the Acts of the Apostles, we see on the day of Pentecost that the ARABS* were the ones who received the Word of God spoken by Peter and the Apostles. They heard about Jesus in their own languages (the Libyans, Ethiopians, Africans, the Persians were all there) and their heart were pricked as they accepted Him as Lord and Saviour. This was to be the beginning of the knowledge of Jesus Christ to the people of EAST because the Scriptures shows that even the Ethiopian eunuch who was Queen Candice’s treasurer took the Gospel of Jesus Christ back to his homeland anointed by the fires of the Holy Spirit. Can you imagine the unwritten history of these men and their exploits for God in their own nations?

When the Jews had rejected the message of Jesus – the Arab people and those from the East accepted with open arms the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Matt: 2:1, the Bible says:

“Now Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, in the days of Herod the king, and behold there came wise men from the EAST to Jerusalem. Saying, Where is He that is born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the EAST and have come to worship Him.”

How ironic that wise men who were worshippers of the One True God and who had studied the sacred text and knew of the prophetic times were able to discern from their deep study of the stars that Jesus Christ had been born while the Jews were oblivious to the knowledge of His presence far less the time of His visitation.

Just as the children of the EAST were worshipping the One True God in the days of Israel’s captivity and they were in darkness to who Jehovah God really was – so it was at the birth of Christ that the men of EAST were the first to announce the Saviour’s coming and be the ones to come and offer worship, adoration and precious gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

So again, just as in Acts of the Apostles, where 3000 for whom were Arabs, Africans and others from the Eastern lands heard the Word gladly and received Jesus – so it is again with the Wise Men who travelled a great distance just to worship the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, Jesus The Christ.

So 500 years before the coming of Jesus Christ, the prophet Isaiah in chapter 60 verse 6 prophesied that wise men will come on camels (not on donkeys, not in chariots); men from the lands of Midian (Jethro’s countrymen), Ephah and Sheba (The Eastern Lands) would come bearing gold and incense.

Many refuse to accept the Bible story. Many would rather accept the Christian story. We refuse to accept that the Christian story has been unadulterated by Greek mythology and Roman paganism. Christianity has been plagued by one-sided religious dogma which pits brother against brother. The Bible story is two-sided because it includes both sides of the coin.

Before Jesus Christ can return, the prophet says that “the flocks of Kedar must be gathered together to the Lord…the rams of Nebaioth (the sons of Ishmael – the Muslim nations) must minister to the Lord Jesus…they must come fully assured of salvation offering an offering of righteousness to the Lord…only then will the glory of the House of God be at its fullest..”

So the wealth – both physical and spiritually of the Muslim nations will be brought into the endtime church of Jesus Christ as a sign as did the Wise Men in His first Advent. Their ardour and ferverence in prayer will be magnified ten fold as they come into the knowledge of Christ and are baptized with the Latter Rain as the 3000 who were baptized with the Former Rain at Pentecost.

May we pray for the deliverance of all of the sons of Abraham…

Advertisement

276 Responses to What Does The Bible Really Say About The Sons Of Abraham – And What Will It Take For This Dysfunctional Family To Become As One?

  1. Religion besides politics is one of the great curses of the human race and shall be its downfall. When god created this earth he should have just give the animals dominion over the earth and forget about the human race….they have proven time and time again to be unworthy beings.

  2. Interpertation of the Bible should be illegal.All it does is create more questions and gives no realistic answers.One thing we must not forget that man wrote the Bible and even King James has his version. In todays society there are many versions. Only God knows what was taken out and replaced opver the years. The Bible as we know it today is “MANS WORD”

  3. Why don’t we do a DNA test of mother earth, fauna and flora included and a DNA test of MAN and then we’ll see who really belongs here….or elsewhere!

    there’s a mothership waiting.

  4. Why don’t we do a DNA test of mother earth, fauna and flora included and a DNA test of MAN and then we’ll see who really belongs here….or elsewhere!

    there’s a mothership waiting for all alien-invaders!

  5. Man Terence, you like you trying to raise the bar bout here yuh…. MME and NS got the level already out of reach at triple A+ and you here trying to juck it even higher???
    …..tek it easy skippa…..

    First thing: – Is this something that you just wrote coming out of the Israel Vs Palestine thread? …or is this a subject that you had researched previously?

    Bush Tea thinks that you took a few liberties, but I found it an interesting presentation.

    Are you suggesting that Christ’s return is contingent on “the flocks of Kedar must be gathered together to the Lord…the rams of Nebaioth….” etc

    Bush Tea suspects that you will find that it will be AS A RESULT of Christ’s return that the gathering together of the flocks and rams will occur……

    IMHO, the prophecy which says that before Christ returns, one of the signs will be ‘the first shall be last and the last shall be first…’ is related to the now fairly obvious situation where everything is ‘upsided down’ as we would say in Barbados. Confusion shall reign! Common sense shall elude us….. I could give you thousands of examples….

    With respect to the substantive issue – who are the ‘Jews’? This is a complex issue. Even the question of who is a Bajan become complex if you choose to go back hundreds of years to resolve the issue.

    Are you defining a Jew as any descendant of Abraham? Is any present citizen of Israel not now an Israeli? How about a convert to Judaism?

    The importance you place on the tribes of the EAST seem to be focused on the ongoing family rift between these kin, however your thesis does not appear to support your conclusion that there must be a coming together of these factions BEFORE Christ can return.

  6. Religion is truly the “Opiate”of the masses. Never has so many spoken so much about so little. Our connections to religion and politics, continues to enslave us. The “Rothschild”empire, born in Europe has through the centuries, massively contributed to the war machine and thus the suffering of humanity. No matter what religious persuasion we have adopted, it has failed us miserably. At the council of “Nicea” in AD 325, the ruling intellectuals of that time, decided on a plan to dupe the masses. Religion as we know it was born, and confusion as we now have it reign’s supreme. To understand Is=IsisRA=AmonraEL=Elohim or God, we would have to go back to the pagan establishment of Kemet(Modern day Egypt). What the enemy does not want us to know, is that the first monotheistic society on earth, was in Africa. Until the world gives Africa its props, there will be continued war and suffering on this planet. Egypt is not in the middle east, Russia is not in Europe, and I’m not crazy. For domination of the people with black skins, the European liars concocted a scheme. They intended then as they do now to convince the world of their superiority, through might and size. Look at what’s happening in Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Why are those countries not determined as “Developing Countries.” Greece cannot support itself, as much as tiny Barbados, and we call Greece a first world country? Like religion, politics and all this other nonsense, it’s all a racist game, and we are all “Pawns in the game.” Like our most famous caribbean historian said, “First, Columbus fell on his knees, then he fell on the aboriginees.” Europeans always adopted the “Praise god, but pass the ammunition,” mentality. Religion, a european invention and lie, will continue to enslave the darker skinned people of this world. None no better than we, who have lived in the Caribbean, South and Central America, and Africa. We have all been mislead, mishandled, and mishapped. The masses need a fix, and they get it every sunday morning. The slaves very rarely rebelled on sundays, did they now? So my brothers and sisters, believe what you want, worship what you want, the truth is out there for those who desire knowledge.

  7. @ BUSH TEA

    “Is this something that you just wrote coming out of the Israel Vs Palestine thread? …or is this a subject that you had researched previously?”

    On the internet or should we say in the entire world (because North Korea HAS A CLOSED INTERNET VIRTUAL WORLD)… (someone having recently hacked into it from Eastern Europe) – how many websites do you think deals (ONLY) and conclusively with the RETURN OF JESUS?

    Your answer will be interesting!!!

    To answer your question BUSHMAN* (man I like that name) – this partial article is part of a research document for a very prominent and powerful Muslim voice in the Islamic world who has asked me to share my findings with him…

    The other aspect is that within my church affiliation we have placed much emphasis on bringing Muslims to Christ successfully and my work along with 2 other gentlemen (1 Pakistani & the other American) work for the salvation and enlightenment of Muslims showing from the Bible and Quran the MAJESTY OF JESUS CHRIST…

    Don’t forget I was a Muslim for about 5 years of my life and a fundamentalist both in temperament and practice…

    Thank God for JESUS!!!

  8. Terence Blackett
    You start your dissertation by taking as your text Isaiah 60: 6, 7

    But 1 you fail to put it in its context
    2 you do not explain what the text means
    3 you never really come back to the text or properly exegete it before you set out on your rambling rant.
    4 You have disobeyed all the rules of hermeneutics and homiletics, even as you chose to chastise “many well-meaning theologians, pastors and teachers.

    Some how you seem not to know that you are not the only one who has read Genesis 25, and who know from childhood that Abraham had 3 lines. Tell me what is so unique about that?

    . Do you think that Abraham was unique in the Bible in having more than 3 lines? Seems you need to read the Bible again, and do so properly Sir.

    Clearly one does not need to understand all the junk you have written to understand the two verses that you have lifted out of the tone and tenor and teaching of the last section of the prophesy of Isaiah.

    Understanding and explaining who Midian, Ephah, Sheba, Kedar and Nebaioth were, based on Biblical history, only serves to reveal that these people will also be part of those who will be coming to worship at Jerusalem and who will also be bringing gifts to Christ the King, who came through the line of Isaac.

    Understanding and explaining who Midian, Ephah, Sheba, Kedar and Nebaioth were based on Biblical history, only serves to reveal that the children of Abraham from the other two lines will in the millennium be subservient to Christ the King, who came through the line of Isaac.

    You wrote this goo “It is important to note that Abraham’s [3] lines of descendants are pivotal to the plan of salvation, although heretical teachings to the contrary would have us believe that because Abraham bequeathed all that he had to Isaac the child of promise that it meant that Abraham’s seed (which according to Almighty God) would be like the sands upon the sea shore – we must conclude that the Abrahamic promised blessings also included all of his posterity.”

    1Please kindly – give us the Scriptural references that teach that Abraham’s [3] lines of descendants are pivotal to the plan of salvation.

    2 Please kindly explain Galatians 3;16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ

    Do you realize that this verse says seeD and not seeds

    Could you explain how you fit this verse in your “thesis”?

    3 Could you explain to this untalented 3/10 teacher who is lacking in common sense teacher what Galatians 4:22-26 mean?
    22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
    23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
    24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    You wrote “Abraham’s first wife Hagar bore him Ishmael.”

    You of course know that Sarah was the first of Abraham’s two wives and not Hagar. Hagar was a servant girl this couple hired when they were in Egypt.

    She represents what happens when believers do not WAIT on God and try to HELP out God in his purposes.

    Paul through the Holy Spirit tells us what she was exactly – A BONDMAID!

    (Also check Genesis 11-20 to see when Hagar came into the picture )

    Yet you come here by another Spirit to tell us that Hagar was Abraham’s first wife?

    Did you do that because you know that folk here do not SEARCH OR STUDY THE SCRIPTURES SYSTEMATICALLY & SEQUENTIALLY OR AT ALL!?

    More rubbish Terrence!

    Where in the Bible can you find verses that teach that “Jesus Christ cannot return to earth until there is unity amongst the children of Abraham based on the covenant God made with him. The fulfilment of that covenant extend to every man, woman and child of Abraham who will come into the promise by faith in Jesus Christ regardless of religious persuasion, race or creed.”

    I wont be holding my breath for an answer!

    Let me cite the verse that you quoted out of context.

    “The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah: all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense: and they shall forth the praises of the Lord.. All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance upon mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.”

    Isaiah 60:6 is teaching that Midian and Ephah and Sheba shall come to bring gold and incense to shew forth the praises of the Lord, who was descended from Isaac’s line as is the clear teaching of Galatians.

    The names are at best an idiom to represent people from all over the world, and at worst they denote that the offspring of the other [2] lines of Abraham will be bowing at Jesus’ feet (the descendant from Isaac’s line.) ( I give you a range here to chose which you prefer)

    What is most noteworthy here is that then, when wise men, not only from the East but from all over the world, will come with gifts of gold and incense for the Redeemer, at this time that they are not bringing myrrh. Why? Because myrrh spoke of Christ’s death at His first coming. At His second coming they bring no myrrh. This is a remarkable point!

    Bet you didn’t spot that.

    We must put the emphasis on the ESSENTIALS not the incidentals. Your ramblings about the law of primigeniture, and how it is clearly reversed by the patriarchs might impress those who have not searched and studied the Scriptures, but is clearly unrelated to the exegesis of this text.

    Whether the 2nd son of Ishmael – Kedar came first or last and then Nebaioth the firstborn came second does not mean a thing here .They both will come to worship ISAAC’s OFFSPRING according to word from the prophet.! NOT ANY FROM HAGAR”S LINE OR KETURAH”S LINE. Ah lie?

    They both will come to worship ISAAC’s OFFSPRING because they will have no choice in the millenium EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW (c.f Phil 2: 11; Reve 5 also speaks to this concept)

    Veres 7 is teaching that flocks will be brought to Jerusalem for sacrifice as the sacrifices will be reinstituted in the millennial temple. This may be difficult for some to accept, but the Old Testament is very definite at this point. Read, for example, Ezekiel 40–44. These sacrifices, I believe, will point back to the death of Christ as in the Old Testament they pointed forward to His death. They will have the same meaning.

    ALL SERIOUIS SOLID SINCERE SCHOLARS OF THE SCRIPTURES KNOW from the Word of God decisively and distinctly who the ARAB people are – the sons of Ishmael, Midian and the others. There is nothing controversial about that.

    That’s is Basic Bible knowledge picked up in Sunday school man in any Bible teaching church. But we also learned from reading the scriptures (and you can bring in your primogeniture law if you like too) that Isaac was the son of promise, and a type of Christ. The Promised One, The Obedient One The Offered One.

    Re The ignorance of allowing the other [2] lines of Abraham to exist in virtual obscurity without paying the necessary attention to the part that they play in the prophetic scheme of things is the reason why God is now allowing the eyes of those who are seeking revelation, light and present truth from the Word of God to bring this knowledge to the forefront of the minds of men.”

    Terrence this is very good prose man! But give us the Bible references that speak of the part the other [2] lines of Abraham play in the prophetic scheme of things I challenge you to research it and come back and tell us. Should be fun. But BU readers wont like the information you willbe bringing.

    Re This is probably going to be the most controversial exegetical exposition of divine Biblical revelation ever seen from the Word of God and there are some who will be offended by this Scriptural discourse as it belies their inherent prejudices concerning the Bible.

    Terrence what is controversial about what you have written?
    Where is the exegetical exposition of divine Biblical revelation ever seen from the Word of God? In Medicine we call this delusions of grandeur Sire!

    I think I have debunked enough off the junk that you have brought to BU

    MORE BS ON BU! Go figure!

  9. Georgie Porgie

    Last post was mine

  10. “Last post was mine”

    ++++

    As if we would not know !

  11. @ GP

    WHICH QUESTION SHOULD I START WITH?

  12. @ GP

    I recognize we are like the ARABS & jews – there’s an impasse and we will NEVER see eye to eye on nothing – and that’s a good thing!!!

    So debulking, debunking or whatever slant you choose to bring to the table simply reaffirms the obvious…

  13. @ GP

    I live in a world where if I was waiting for accepted consensus from the like of you and others, I would be pretty LUKEWARM* in my faith, convictions and in my ability to stand where others fall apart at the seams…

    Like most of you who have your material “gods” to protect less you become a casualty of system by going against the grain… I face my demons, my Goliaths and the lions within the said system because I am not dependent on an employer, an institution, a politician or priest for sanction or a paycheck…

    It’s easy to sit up in BIM and criticize – try being a “LONE” in someone else’s world!!!

  14. Our planet moves around what we call the Sun. The Sun is a rather normal star. There are about three hundren million stars in our Milky Way galaxy. Many of these stars have planets orbiting them. It is estimated that there are more galaxies in our universe than there are grains of sand on all the beaches on Earth. What would possess anyone to think that anything written on this planet thousands of years ago would represent the ‘truth’?

  15. @ BT

    For the record, I am not the only one holds the beliefs I do concerning Jewry…

    Some of my Caucasoid Jewish brothers have recently called me an ARAB sympathizer and an Islamic apologist for the philosophical and religious positions I take – (which is a real irony) because all I have ever suggested is the middle-ground approach to what as DAVID* remarked in another post is that this has been a volatile issue for centuries (if not 1000′s of years)…

    What is also equally laughable is my own Jewishness given a G.G. Grandmother who was a Portuguese Jew – but moreover my OWN personal acceptance of the 7th DAY SABBATH based on GENESIS Chapter 2 verses 2 & 3…

    So whatever folks may think of my agenda – my works, my books, my articles and my social standing in the NEAR* future will continue to prove a threshing-floor for controversy, debate and malignity…

  16. “……because I am not dependent on an employer, an institution, a politician or priest for sanction or a paycheck…”

    The Government?

  17. @ BT

    As I suggested to you before – there are some questions which are complex in nature with no simple answers…

    My dear brother and pastor Reckart believes that the Jewish view of history is simple: the Jew, only the Jew, and nothing but the Jew… Clearly nothing has changed in 4000 years!!!

    Gentiles or non-Jews, called by various derogatory names, chief of which is “goyium” are considered dogs, beast, and the serpent’s seed…

    They claim only the Jew descends from Adam, therefore they are the “elect chosen race”. They believe that God has placed salvation in RACE* (if I weren’t careful I’d do the same)…

    They believe unless a person has Jewish bloodlines they can never be a part of the “Covenants” or “Promises of God” (this clearly outlaws ARABS & others)…

    They do believe that some Gentiles (Noahides), can have a PART* in their planned world empire, but they will never be equal and share in the blessings of God to be granted or given only to the Jews…

    Many Jews actually believe that the Gentiles are children of the serpent…

    They believe in the serpent seed doctrine (supported by Talmudic evidence). That is, they believe that before God created Eve, that Adam had a BLACK* wife named Lillith. She is reported to be the mother of the BLACK* and mingled races…

    This “Lillith” is alleged to have also committed adultery with the “Serpent”. This allegedly angered God, causing him to make Adam a new wife out of his own flesh…

    Thus the other children born of Lillith by Adam were beast…

    Eve is alleged to have been also seduced by the serpent and certain “white Gentiles” are the seed of this adultery…

    All non-Jews are considered beast (see the Babylonian Talmud)…

    This theory brings a natural belief that the Jewish people are the only true race of human beings on the earth….

    They are therefore the “elect” of God…

    They are the “chosen people.”

    They are the only people for whom the “golden utopia” or “Millennium” will come…

    They are the rightful rulers of the world…

    They have a right and a duty to use all other “beast” (white and BLACKS*) as best suits their needs…

    All the wealth and riches of the nations and the world belongs to the Jews…

    To steal, rob, cheat, or out-right take from these beasts their gold, silver, money, precious gems, precious minerals, land, houses, crops, food, is like taking something from a dog: is only taking what is theirs by an alleged “Divine Right” (the right of kings)…

    IT IS NOT A SIN!!!

    It is no more a sin to take from Gentiles beasts than it is to take from the mouth of a dog a rabbit…

    The dog and rabbit belong to the Jews, so to appropriate either the effort of the dog, or the reward of his work, is not stealing…

    This is the under-girding law of taxation, usury, and forced labor…

    I will confess that this seemed to me at first the most far-fetched tale I had ever heard, …until I read the Jewish Talmud…

    This book, claimed by both Jews and Gentiles, to be the most holy collection of God’s laws, even superior to the Laws of Moses, is the universal law of monotheism which set up Communism and Socialism throughout the world…

    If I had not read it for myself, I would have called it all lies…

    I would have thought it Jew-hating or antisemitism…

    But they do not deny it themselves…

    In fact, they consider it Jew-hating and antisemitism to expose the contents of the Talmud…

    They believe their religion is so private that Gentiles have no right to examine it, question it, and discuss it openly (sounds like some of the FOLKS* on BU)…

    They believe they may do with the beast as they please – because of this attitude and belief, the Gentiles were called dogs, and dogs have no “right” to their bread, not even the crumbs…

    Thank God for JESUS!!!

    The belief was developed that the Jews were then the exclusive and only beneficiaries of the blessings of God…

    Only Jews could share in the Covenant, although if Gentiles were good beast, they would be permitted to “share” in the future blessings of Israel…

    This gave rise to the belief that the Divine purpose was Israel…

    That as the Elect, and owing to the Covenant of Abraham, they had unconditional eternal security…

    They were born saved and nothing could separate them from their exclusive entitlement to eternal life (well I guess we will see won’t we?)…

    Their salvation was in their flesh and blood lineage back to Abraham and Adam…

    They were in bondage to no man, and therefore did not need Jesus Christ or Calvary to set them free…

    They report that it is not their faithfulness or their practice of religious virtues, but God’s faithfulness in his oath to Abraham, that secures them from ever being lost…

    This consequently, leads to the idea that the Jews and Israel are the climax of all eschatology…

    YOU DECIDE!!!

  18. @TMB… Namaste.

    I consider you to be a learned and brave man to be bringing your above forward.

    However, while your above language is without question original, the realization (that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same roots and descendents, in both ideas and humans) isn’t.

    If you (or anyone else) hasn’t read Karen Armstrong’s “A History of God”, you are well advised to do so.

    So, from this, then, the question stands… why are the believers of these religions at war with each other? Believing that only their God is the *correct* God and refusing to accept the other’s?

    Oh… Perhaps this has already been answered…

    So, then TMB… If a condition of Christ’s return is for the fighting to end, let me please ask you this simple question:

    How do you think we all are currently doing in not killing each other regularly?

  19. Checkit-Out

    Terence M. Blackett // June 8, 2010 at 1:11 PM;

    Any specific internet sources for the Talmud which you refer to above? There appears to be several versions on the Internet, all claiming to be the authentic Talmud.

    BTW, the vigour with which most of our fundamentalists defend Jewry has always surprised me in view of the known attitude of Jews to Christianity. Any views on this?

  20. Straight talk

    AL:
    Never wanting to discuss religion, politics or football teams with the terminally committed, I am pleased some other speck of our galactian non-entity shares my scorn at the arrogance of the 3000 year old raghead adherents.
    Imagine that they now fall out between themselves what some sunbaked dimwit dreamt up stories to impress his other tent dwellers into archiving his works.
    Nowadays we’d call them the loony left, totally divorced from reality and certainly beyond reason, not fit for polite company.
    Thank God (sic) that they keep themselves locked in their Bible “Study” groups.
    Interpreting the thoughts of some desert living scribe who obviously lacked the talent to say what he meant, otherwise we wouldn’t be lumbered with otherwise intelligent men still trying to figure it out, and even worse falling out with others who disagree with their learned divinations.
    What a joke this religion malarkey is, realise my friends it’s only a device heaped upon the underprivileged to keep them subordinated until as one if the happy clappers loves to say “they are planted” and beyond questioning the status quo.

  21. Georgie Porgie

    Terrence

    You are all over the place, man.
    I am not a Jew, and know no Jews.

    The issue has nothing to being like the ARABS & jews –or seeing eye to eye.

    Can you refute what I have said?
    You spent a long time teahing two basic Sunday school points and trying to insert them into a text.

    I have not asked you what world you live in or if you were waiting for accepted consensus from the like of me or others, nor have I asked you about your faith , convictions or ability to stand or fall.

    Can you answer any of my questions or refute what I have said with RELEVANT SCRIPTURE REFERENCES.

    I have no material “gods” to protect and I am not going against the grain. I am asking you some questions, man Thats all . I dont care about your demons, Goliaths or lions, and whether you are dependent on an employer, an institution, a politician or priest for sanction or a paycheck…is not at all relevant to the issues under consideration.

    I am not in Bim and besides Zoe I am a “LONE” in he BU BS world!!! I am right now on this thread going against the grain.

    Unlike most folk who read BU, I have actually studied the Bible. So a few things that you wrote can be substantiated, and the rest well…..its the usual BS you will find on BU.

    I am not anti you, but I have asked a few questions in response to the first half of the junk you wrote. I have asked only for some Scripture references to substantiate your thesis. Thats all.

    You started with Isaiah 60. I am just asking for assistance in interpretation Sir. I want to graduate up to at least a 5.5/10 teacher in Bible Sir.

  22. For those bible intelligent individuals on this blog, let’s start first with (Rev. 2:9;3:9;). Next let’s go to (John 8:44), then to (2 Cor. 11:14). Then to (Rev. 2:9;3:9). The European decents of cave dwellers in the Caucasus mountain region of Europe, are not Moses led Hebrew Israelites. Those of you writing these lengthy dissertations are confused, off base by miles. These European Kazars, and achanasians, had to find a way to control the financial capitals in their time, so as not to become extinct. They devised a system to transplant themselves as the “Chosen people.” Their plans consisted back then and still today, to destroy governments, and to warehouse populations as “Goyim”(Meaning human cattle). Judaism, is not a race of people, but a religion. Why then do European jews feel the need to occupy Palestine or anywhere else? Show me a single first world central banking system, that has not, or is not controlled by the “House of Rothschild.” European jews the world over have manipulated the global financial system, none bigger than “Bernard Madoff.” Those of you who quote the bible verse and text, read those passages I’ve recommended at the top of this note. Whether we align with Christianity, Islam or Judaism, those religions have all failed and enslaved Blask people. Catholicism, is the faith that enslaved the darker skinned people of this universe. It is a religion predicated on a lie, where its first Pope Simon Peter a denier of Christ formed that first church. Ever since then, that catholic faith, has continued to rob, rape both literally anf figuratively the people of this universe. The Jews, used their wealth to support King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, in their conquest and destruction of the peoples of Africa, South and Central America. And last but not least, Islam allowed to conquerors to use the Islamic technology of the day, to circumnavigate the world. Christopher Columbus was an idiot seaman, who could not sail his way out of a wet paper bag. Had it not been for the Moors, who at the time understood how to use “Kochab and Polaris,” the two brightest stars in the constellation. Again, the Moors conquered Spain and ran the English and Portuguese out of the meditterranean region of Europe. Who were the Moors, you got it African Moslems. You who obsess about these major religious factions, just know that our people, black people were enslaved, indoctrinated, and mass murdered at the hands of organized religion. These murderers had a plan on a grand scale to kill off our ancestors, and today there are those of you gloryfying these mass killers of those who gave to civilization, the concepts of sciences and mathematics. Religion as it is known, is a despicably, treacherous betrayer of the masses. Study the history of our people, so as to prevent the mistakes of the past.

  23. Georgie Porgie

    TB

    I am not too smart OK. But when I read Genesis 11: 29 I see that when we first met him that Abram’s wife (later called Abraham) was SARAI later called Sarah.

    So I cant figure how an exalted intellectuual like you who raises the bar on BU misses simple facts like that.

    Note that the servant girl (NOT WIFE) Hagar is not mentioned until chapter 16. Many Bajan men have sex with thier servants, but do you think that any of them will call their servant with whom they copulate thier FIRST WIFE?

    You rant much about the reversal of the rite of the first born as practiced in Genesis by the Patriarchs as led by God. Now tell me after the Patriarchs who else besides David reversed the first born? Who does it now?

    So how does it become important in an isolated text in Isaiah concerning the eschaton.

    Bear with me Sir. I am seeking to be taught. Not challenging you or giving you pressure.

    You see I was taught to find out what the text says and then determine what the text means before applying the text. I was also taught tio interpret texts in their context, and then relate them to other texts. So being a simpleton I have followed that for 40 years with good results. But I am willing to learn. So I really want to learn how you exegeted or ex-duced or ad-duced the stuff you got out of those two verses. I want to be able “to raise the bar” like you man. OK

  24. @ Checkit-Out

    I am sure the University library at Cave Hill should have a copy on hand…

    If not, ask Dr. Becks to order one…

    Beyond on that – Dr. ELLIOT DOUGHLIN* ( TRUTH FOR THE FINAL GENERATION) ought to be able to get you one…

  25. @ CH

    ” If a condition of Christ’s return is for the fighting to end, let me please ask you this simple question:- How do you think we all are currently doing in not killing each other regularly?”

    Well Chris, in all fairness when Yeshua (KING* of Kings & LORD*of Lords) return all wars and commotions will be forced to end because HE* is the PRINCE* of PEACE*…

    Matt: 24 reminds us that these said areas of unrest will continue unabated right up to the very end…

    Even if ARAB* & jew can live together in some compromised state of social CO-existence, the historical issues of FAITH* will still be a sore thumb in the backsides of those who are dead set on anarchy, strife and confusion…

    As always, there will always be a set of hemorrhoids who will flare up at the whiff of anything!!!

  26. @TMB: “Well Chris, in all fairness when Yeshua (KING* of Kings & LORD*of Lords) return all wars and commotions will be forced to end because HE* is the PRINCE* of PEACE*…

    So then, TMB… Are you arguing that war will always occur, because the “believers” believe it is their right, right up to the bitter end?

    Gods help us….

  27. @ GP

    Condescension is NOT* a BAJAN trait my beloved brother!!!

    Leave that for the “paleskin” folks I’ve lived amongst most of my life… They have mastered the knack of it – us BLACK folks don’t play that game too well …

    BROTHER teacher take off your 21st century ROSE-COLORED glasses and see if it is possible to TELEPORT* 4000 years into the past (maybe Chris Halsall can explain the virtues of QUANTUM TIME-TRAVEL) so you can get a proper anthropological perspective on how SEMETIC LIFE* was back then…

    Erroneous Bible teachers for 1000′s of years have done a job on us where we are more polarized than ever before…

    The ARAB*-jewery question is rather simplistic – the real problem comes from our so-called exegesis which pits BROTHER AGAINST BROTHER, PEOPLE AGAINST PEOPLE, RELIGION AGAINST RELIGION with the end result being the current impasse we’ve got…

  28. @ CH

    “Are you arguing that war will always occur, because the “believers” believe it is their right, right up to the bitter end?”

    200 million soldiers will amass in the valley of Jehoshaphat for a final global battle…

    ONE-THIRD of humanity will die from war (those who survive will either die from famine, disease or freakish ecological fallout) …

    So yes as you said, right up to the bitter end!!!

    But then, there are those FOLKS who believe they will be “WHISKED AWAY”…

    A debate for another day!!!

  29. @TMB: “But then, there are those FOLKS who believe they will be “WHISKED AWAY”…

    Jesus flying fsck…

    Some in power actually believe this nursery rhyme bullshit?

  30. Straight talk

    Sounds like you’re up for a good rumble, Chris.
    Jumping Jehosophat I’m in too.
    After we’ve won what about that Trinity on the hill waiting for the flying saucers.
    If we lose so what.. we dead anyway.
    Not sure I’d like to spend eternity listening to GP’s BE…..correction oh yes I am sure.

  31. Georgie Porgie

    bLACKETT

    mAN YOUR RAMBLING HAS NOT BROUGHT ANd ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS MAN
    You are an intellual who a common sense man says “raised the bar” I cant see why you cant raise it some more and answer my simple questions.

  32. TB, you’re still caught up with that calling of B’dos “Little England”bullshit. TB the “cow did not jump over the moon, and the dish did not run away with the spoon.” The bible is a book written by William Devere, better known as you guessed it, William shakespeare. Before the advent of the “Gutenberg mass prinitng system,” how many in the european peasantry had access to bibles? Not many TB. In 1619 King James had the bible re-written for himself and the elite of that day. Left out of the King James version of the bible, were many books. Why TB were books left out of the so called “book of life.” In pre-Gutenberg England, to own a bible was to be deemed a heretic, and put to death. Europeans constantly contradict themselves. Brainwashed, simple minded darkies, allow themselve to foment the idiocy of the former slave masters. That’s why today in Europe, Europeans are the least religious people on the planet. As long as they can get simple minded darkies to proselytize religion for them, they’re able to continue with their racial, religious global dominance. If we blacks want something or someone to believe in, we should start with ourselves. It is we Afri(k)ans that gave civilization to a world, in which caucasoids, were still living on frozen tundra, and eating dogs, and horses. TB even the way these caucasians burned their dead, was exported to Afri(k)a and to Asia. The reasons for these caucasian rituals, were tied to the arid frozen tundra on which they lived. Carter G Woodson, the great son of African American lineage, wrote a book called “The miseducation of the negro.” We blacks in the caribbean diaspora, for the most part, are truly “hoodwinked and bamboozeled.” For us to dig deep into our history, would require us to know to much about ourselves, and our ancestors. We therefore, have become the “Most comfortable slaves on the planet.” Tell me TB, is religion your Pillar, or your crutch? And which ever response you give, why? “To thyself be true.”

  33. @ Anonymous

    Great piece of history!!!

    I don’t think I can argue against nothing you have said…

    The system of eschatology teaches that the Jews are and will always be the only beneficiaries of God.

    I agree with Reckart et al that this Post Babylonian racism by Jews is not found nowhere in your Bible.

    Their very history denies it to be true.

    Jesus rejected it as false.

    The Apostles refused to be bound by this racism once it was exposed.

    Yes, the Jews were not to marry the Gentiles.

    Yes, the Gentiles were not to enter into the Tabernacle.

    Yes, many Gentiles were adversaries to the Israelites.

    And yes, the Gentiles were a separate people from Israel.

    But does all this prove that Gentiles were beast?

    The serpent seed doctrine was picked up by the Jews in Babylon. It was a Babylonian belief that Adam had two wives and the first was a BLACK* beast.

    It was a Babylonian belief that the Serpent [a beast], seduced Eve and those white children who were born and latent antisemites, were also beast.

    History has pretty well established that the Babylonians had at the center of their religion a ritual reenacting the sexual interpretation of the fall.

    This sexual ritual is still practiced in every coven of witches in the world that follows the Kabalistic formulae of mysticism.

    This keeping alive the Babylonian reinterpretation of the fall, does not make this Nimrod Babylonian doctrine true.

    The Scriptures are clear that it was after the Flood, that the nations were dispersed according to their families.

    It is well established that all human beings were of ONE RACE* after the Flood, and that “RACE” was descended from Noah.

    This race was Gentile.

    This rules out the idea that BLACKS are animals descended from Adam and Lillith or the Serpent and Lillith. They would have all died in the flood.

    It rules out that white devils descended from Eve and the serpent. They would have all died in the Flood.

    Only one seed survived the flood and it was Noah’s. This one seed has one blood, and all nations are descended from this one blood. Paul said this in Acts 17:26.

    The Serpent seed doctrine is not only a Mystery Babylon lie, it is a Jewish lie. It is a lie to teach that the Jews have a bloodline to Adam that others in the world do not have. It is the basic lie that under-girds the idea of predestination according to RACE* and seed, and not in the work of Christ and Calvary.

    Abraham was a Gentile (Mesopotamian). The Jewish nation and “RACE” started with Jacob and his 12 sons. Two tribes of this nation were born to Joseph of a BLACK* Gentile Egyptian woman.

    Jews hold to the belief that a person is considered a Jew if born of a Jewish mother.

    They consider all children born of a Gentile mother by a Jewish father, to be non-Jewish and they must go through conversion.

    When we apply this to the Gentile blood in the previous paragraph, we can see that Israel is in fact so mingled with Gentile flesh and bloodlines, as to make the claim of a master “race” or the chosen people because of flesh and blood, is BLATANTLY FALSE* (truth which cannot be supported anthropologically or otherwise).

    To frustrate their claim even further, let us examine the case of King David.

    He is the great grandson of Boaz and Ruth, the Gentile Moabitess.

    Let us examine Solomon.

    He was the son of David and a Gentile Hittite name Bathsheba.

    Taking the Jewish doctrine that a child’s nationality is determined by the ancestry of the mother, Solomon was a converted Hittite.

    David’s father Jesse was a converted Moabite.

    The point here is to prove that the doctrine of salvation by flesh and blood lines back to Abraham and then to Adam, is FALSE*…

    The idea that the Jewish bloodline is pure and absent of Gentile bloodlines is FALSE***.

    Nowhere in the Old Testament was it forbidden for Gentiles to become “proselytes”.

    Many Gentiles converted to the Jewish religion and they were not considered “beast”, “white devils”, or serpent seed.

    In truth and reality, the nation of Israel had so intermingled with the Gentiles that, at the time of Christ the nation was fully comprised of Gentiles and Jews.

    Why is it such a difficult and hard thing to then accept that God has done the very same thing in the New Testament Church???.

    The Jewish belief of an exclusive “RIGHT” and “TITLE” to be called the “chosen people”, in spite of their obvious mixture of Gentile bloodlines, is again BLATANTLY as well patently FALSE*…

    What is true, is that God called the Jewish nation to be the depository of HIS* Truths and Revelations.

    They were a chosen people to bear testimony to the world the oneness of God.

    They were a chosen people to bring forth the Law until it would reach its fulfillment and climax when Yeshua Messiah would come.

    The Prophets predicted the coming of Messiah and the New Covenant.

    The Jews, regardless of their mingled blood, were chosen of God to be a holy and peculiar people in righteousness.

    They were unfaithful in these obligations and were evicted from the “holy land”.

    It was these evictions, especially the one to Babylon, that gave rise to the Prophets who predicted a restoration.

    It is these prophesies of restoration that are misunderstood and misapplied to the study of eschatology.

    Many Jews looked for a restoration of the throne of David in Israel.

    Many saw this restoration of the throne, only when Messiah came.

    They had a nation.

    Check these verses out and it proves they had a nation: LUK 7:5, LUK 23:2, JOH 11:48, JOH 18:35, ACTS 10:22.

    What they did not have was a kingdom because the throne of David was not set up.

    It was the Messianic hope that the throne of David would be set up ON***.

    It is a true statement that the Jews wanted the throne of David set up, because they believed this would be God’s deliverance from Roman occupation and government.

    What they wanted and theorized was not what God had in mind however.

    They had a hope of the eternal continuance of natural Israel and restoration of a “race” of people, and God had in mind the restoration of the human race through Messiah and HIS* throne moved over into the Kingdom of God – THE CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  34. @ Anonymous

    “Tell me TB, is religion your Pillar, or your crutch? And which ever response you give, why? “To thyself be true.”

    The answer is NEITHER!!!

    Religion is a social construction as I have so long espoused…

    My relationship with CHRIST* is a private, personal, profound privilege which I do NOT* take likely!!!

    At my age my dear brother – I have no choice but to be true to what I believe…

    I apologize for not addressing all your concerns but it is hard multi-tasking several computers all at the same time and trying to answer GP & Co; who want answers which even if CHRIST* HIMSELF gave them – would NOT* be enough…

    Go figure!!!

  35. I ask all Messianic Believers who possess knowledge in these BIBLICAL* matters:

    “Where is the Scriptural proofs where GOD THE FATHER says that He will give back “The Vineyard” to those who killed the King’s Son, and for which HE* took it away from them and gave to other more faithful stewards (Matthew 21:38-41)?

  36. Now there is a teacher who has something to say that makes sense!(TMB)

  37. Georgie Porgie

    Blackett

    You know that Matthew 21:38-41 is a parable I am sure.

    I am also sure that you have read Romans chapters 9-11.

    All of the Messianic predictions that relate to the eschaton are clearly stated in the Psalms and the prophetic books. and you know that!

    You also know that the church is not found in the OT. You also know that you can not find any Scriptures to support the idea that the Messianic promises that were given to the Jews were given to the Church.

    State one single NT verse to support your position.

    For a man that is supposed to be a PhD and an intellectual and a scholar raise the bar man. LOL Bring relevant scriptures rightly divided in thier context to suport your diabolical propaganda.

  38. @Georgie Porgie…

    Not to speak for another, as I try to avoid. But let me please say this…

    I personally grow *very* frustrated by those who tell me what I know.

  39. @ GP

    My dear brother, your Biblical logic is astonishing to say the least…

    So are we to assume that the PARABLE* you so clearly alluded to does not posit exegetical relevance to Yeshua Messiah???

    For the record – cut the claptrap* about PhD’s and all that crap (Jesus was a CARPENTER)…

    Education is no bulwark against stupidity… We get degrees to show off… I got mine to PISS* people OFF!!! So let’s keep it REAL…

    Herein lies the fight between Jewish eschatology and Christian eschatology…

    Jews believe that The Christ and Christians have stolen from them their sole right to be the exclusive people of God.

    They believe that the Christians are the biggest thieves of all history, in that we have stolen their identity by claiming the Church is the True Israel of God.

    They are angry that we claim that the Law and religious system of rituals and animal sacrifices have ceased.

    They are irate that we claim the temple priesthood has been totally and forever abolished.

    They are furious that Christians place no value or importance on the temple mount (thankfully in the hands of Muslims – could you imagine if God allowed otherwise).

    They are so obtuse against Christ that many have taken blood oaths to remove the memory and name of Jesus Christ from the earth.

    Jewish eschatology is filled with contradictions – because the prophecies of Daniel fit the Church and not the nation of natural Israel, most Jews place little or no importance in the fulfillment of the 70 weeks time line.

    After the 70 weeks gave birth to the Kingdom of God (the coming of Yeshua Messiah), the Church, and not Israel’s hope of national restoration, the Jews persecuted the Church.

    After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the majority of Jews that escaped went back to Babylon.

    They remained there generation after generation until around 1054AD when they were all evicted by an Arab King…(some are still in Baghdad until today)..

    Other Jews who were scattered around the Mediterranean sea, called the Diaspora, adopted Phariseeism.

    When Babylonian mysticism in the form of the Kabalah was mingled with Phariseeism, this gave birth to the Hasidic movement and consequently other branches of Judaism.

    Restoration was a dead issue for over a 1000 years for Jews.

    But the fact is, there was no reason they could not go back home.

    They chose rather to stay in Babylon and other nations where they were scattered.

    When they were evicted from Babylon they could have gone back home but they chose not to.

    The idea of restoration actually had a new birth with the claim of Sabbati Zevi that he was the Messiah in 1666.

    This charlatan and false antichrist was well known for his abominable behavior.

    So detestable that many Jews themselves rejected him. But still, he began the revival of restoration.

    This revival was carried over into Christian theology – for which today, the JOHN HAGEE’s of the world and others have jumped on to the bandwagon…

    The Catholic Church had long held that the book of Revelation was already fulfilled in 70 AD.

    It transferred to Rome the claim of being the Kingdom of God and the replacement of Judaism.

    The Pope claims to be the High Priesthood and ruler of the Kingdom.

    The Catholic Church saw no need to suppress claims by Jews such as Zevi and ideas of restoration of a Kingdom, believing these would all pass away, as they did not fit into their amillennial schemes.

    But Protestantism and Freemasonry picked up on these new dreams revived by Zevi.

    Freemasonry and the Rosicrucians even lay claim to being the universal Kingdom of God.

    These all picked up on Jewish teachings and doctrines.

    Thus, dispensationalism became a patchwork of doctrine and teachings of several of these falsehoods.

    The idea of restoration was then transferred among Protestantism via Freemasonry and the Rosicrucians; John Darby, Edward Irving, and Clarence Larkin, all three of which believed the Church would end in defeat, being turned to the DEVIL* while the Jews would turn to God.

    Neither the Catholics, the Jews, Freemasonry, the Rosicrucians, Darby, Irving, or Larkin, saw the end-time revival of the Apostolic Church.

    A complete *surprise* to the works and schemes of the Devil.

    The Apostolic Church is God’s end-time witness that Judaism, Catholicism-Protestantism, and Freemasonry, are *NOT* the Kingdom of God.

  40. Georgie Porgie

    Re They were a chosen people to bring forth the Law until it would reach its fulfillment and climax when Yeshua Messiah would come. The Prophets predicted the coming of Messiah and the New Covenant.The Jews, regardless of their mingled blood, were chosen of God to be a holy and peculiar people in righteousness. They were unfaithful in these obligations and were evicted from the “holy land”.

    ALL THE ABOVE IS TRUE
    IN FACT THEY WERE EVICTED TWICE JUST AS MOSES HAD PREDICTED IN EXODUS

    BUT THIS BELOW IS NONSENSE AND YOU OUGHT TO KNOW SO BLACKETT

    It was these evictions, especially the one to Babylon, that gave rise to the Prophets who predicted a restoration.

    WAS MOSES NOT A PROPHET WHO PREDICTED THE RESTORATION

    DID NOT MOST OF THE PROPHETS SPEAK BEFORE THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY OF A RESTORATION BLACKETT

    ONLY FIVE PROPHETS SPOKE AFTER THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY

    The EXHILC PROPHETS DANIEL & EZEKIEL and

    THE POST EXHILIC PROPHETS HAGGAI MALACHI & ZECHARIAH

    So from Moses day and before (see Jacob in his blessings to his sons on his death bed predicting even in to the future.) He predicted what is soon going to occur in Israel that will cause the USA it seems who is now leaning away from Israel to broker the false peace that will be ended by antichrist at the abominastion of desollation.

    Tell us about this promise Blackett. Raise the bar some more, man.

  41. @ CH

    “I personally grow *very* frustrated by those who tell me what I know…”

    Thanks for that Chris…

    Maybe I should start posting under the pseudonym ” ANONYMOUS DIABOLOS”…

  42. @TMB: “Maybe I should start posting under the pseudonym “ANONYMOUS DIABOLOS”…

    No. IMHO, only cowards post anonymously…

  43. @ GP

    Brother teacher – you continue to flex as if this is a gymnastics class or a nouvelle discipline in the HIGH JUMP*…

    It is neither my dear brother!!!

    A coin has two sides…

    We must be FREE* to show each side and let those who want to weigh in decide for themselves…

    It’s nothing personal – that mentality is divisive, destructive and puny…

    Surely we are bigger than that???

  44. “For a man that is supposed to be a PhD and an intellectual and a scholar ”

    Where ? when?

    Self appointed ?

  45. Many Jews and Gentiles in sympathy with the Jews, think that the Abrahamic Covenant is the national right to real estate without any merit or need to be holy or live by any certain religious values.

    It is alleged that it is God’s faithfulness to perform his oath to Abraham,not the faithfulness of Jews who must live by religious values, that guarantees all Jews the inheritance or promises of Abraham as beneficiaries.

    The Jews slammed this into the teeth of Jesus. They claimed unconditional eternal security by the works and faith of Abraham, not their own:

    John 8:33 They answered him, “we be Abraham’s seed,and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?”

    V.34 Jesus answered them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.”

    V.39 They answered and said unto him, “Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.”

    Even if real estate was the fullness of God’s promise to Abraham (which it was not), and even if this real estate was exclusive to natural Israel(which it was not), WHERE IS THERE SALVATION in a deed, a land-grant, or an inheritance in real estate?

    If there is no salvation provided in the land-grant to those who may claim an undivided interest in the title, by what method will these Jews be saved?

    The choices are simple: …Old Torah (Covenant), or the New Torah(Covenant).

    And if the Law was fully ended at Calvary and not after seven years taken down from the nail-scared hands of Jesus for the alleged time of Jacob’s trouble in the great tribulation, salvation is only in the New Torah / Covenant as Jesus prophesied.

    If Jews do not obey Acts 2:38 by faith toward the object of Abraham’s faith and circumcision, then their circumcision is counted as non-circumcision and the real estate has become nothing but an abominable pig sty for the ungodly:

    Jeremiah 2:7 – “And I brought you into a plentiful country, to eat the fruit thereof and the goodness; but when ye entered,ye defiled my land, and made mine inheritance an abomination.”

    Jeremiah 16:18 – “And first I will recompense the iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable and abominable things” (KJV).

    The doctrine that the Jews have unconditional eternal security in Abraham’s covenant of circumcision and that salvation is without conditions is false.

    The following texts of Scripture will clearly demonstrate that election is not hyper-predestination with eternal security:

    Promises & Conditions

    Gen: 12:2 Gen: 12:1
    Gen: 14:2-8 Gen: 17:9
    Gen: 15:5 Gen: 15:6
    Gen: 17:4 Gen: 17:9
    Gen: 17:10-11 Gen: 17:14
    Deut: 28:1-14 Deut: 28:15
    Deut: 30:15-16 Deut: 30:17-19
    II Sam: 7 II Kings 2:3-4
    II Kings 9:4-9
    II Kings 11:11
    I Cron: 28:7
    II Cron: 7:17-18 II Cron: 7:19-23

    It is obvious that if any Israelite for whatever reason apostatized from the Covenant they did not continue to possess the promise or the covenants of Abraham or Sinai.

    The point has been made several times by Jewish religious leaders, that if a Jew converts from the Torah to the New Covenant of Jesus Messiah, that Jew is no longer to be consider a Jew and has forfeited all the blessings and promises of Abraham.

    This one fact proves that Jews believe there exist conditions that terminates the Abrahamic Covenant.

    And this being true, then any other provision that cancels the Abrahamic Covenant is just as valid.

    However, Jews and Noahides practice a double standard.

    According to them, those Jews and Gentile converts to the Messianic Judaism of Jesus are damned from the Abrahamic Covenant but Jews who are atheists, agnostics, Buddhist,Hindu, homosexual or lesbian, witches, astrologers, tarot readers etc. are considered still beneficiaries of the Abrahamic promises and covenant…

    You decide!!!

  46. Georgie Porgie

    So are we to assume that the PARABLE* you so clearly alluded to does not posit exegetical relevance to Yeshua Messiah??? EXPLAIN THE RELEVANCE AND RELASTE IT TO ROMANS 9-11 Sir!

    IF you are a Christian, why are you boring me to death and giving me a Berry aneurysm with all this clap trap about what you Jewish eschatology
    Neither Christians or the NT teaches that the Church is the True Israel of God. THERE ARE SOME THAT SAY SO BUT BRING THE SCRIPTURES THAT TEACH THIS. CLEARLY THE DISPENSATIONAL SECTION OF ROMANS DENIES THIS SIR
    the Law and religious system of rituals and animal sacrifices have ceased and the temple priesthood has NOT been totally and forever abolished as is clear from the chapter in Isaiah which you took two verses w out of today clearly demonstrates. It is clear that these will be re instituted in the mIllennium
    I don’t care if Jewish eschatology is filled with contradictions. And the prophecies of Daniel have nithing to do with the church Read the text in Daniel and you will see that the Angel spoke to Daniel about what would happen to DANIELS PEOPLE Sir
    The prophecies of Daniel gave to Neubuchadnezzer a prediction of the history of world history which Jesus later called the TIMES OF THE GENTILES. It is the time during which Jews lost all power — or the power they had under David Solomon and the good kings of Judah. Most of these predictions have come to pass
    Who cares how the Jews misinterpret the scriptures.
    After the 70 weeks gave birth to the first coming of Yeshua the Jews persecuted the Church.After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the majority of Jews that escaped went back to Babylon. Why shouldn’t they? Only about 20% of them returned under Ezra Nehemiah and Zerrubbabel as clearly taught in Ezra Nehemiah and Haggai.
    Restoration was a dead issue for over a 1000 years for Jews. SO WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH BIBLE PROPHECY. THE BIBLE STANDS UNDAUBTED THROUGH TIME
    This Restoration is taught in Christian theology because IT IS CLEARLY TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE. Long before JOHN HAGEE good Bible expositors have taught the restoration in their commentaries.
    Who cares what the Catholic Church or Freemasonry and the Rosicrucians think. Christians care or ought to care about what the Bible teaches.
    John Darby certainly did not teach that the Church would end in defeat, being turned to the DEVIL* while the Jews would turn to God.
    The Apostolic Church is God’s end-time witness that Judaism, Catholicism-Protestantism, and Freemasonry, are *NOT* the Kingdom of God BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT.

    The Kingdom of God will be set up in the millennium when the King returns. You can not have a kingdom with out a King. You obviously do not understand the book of Matthew or the dispensational section of Romans

    Bring scriptures to show other wise, man

  47. @TMB…

    It has been said (although often ignored) that there are three sides to every story…

    1. My side.

    2. The other side.

    3. The truth….

  48. “IMHO, only cowards post anonymously…”

    ad hominem

  49. At the Garrison, in the middle, tomorrow, Wednesday the 9th at midday.

    Bout Number 1 will be Halsall vs Bowman

    Bout number 2 will be Blackett vs Georgie Porgie. You have to be there.

    I taking bets.

    I bet you Halsall gine lick up Bowman (if he don’t get kick in the balls first).

    Blackett vs GP is anybody’s bet, but I leaning towards Blackett.

    I gine be in the Suzuki van selling rice and stew. C and B there.

  50. Georgie Porgie

    Mr Blackett

    It is clear that the Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant. This is clear from the berith in Genesis chapter 15 and the exposition on this in Hebrews 6: 19 et secq

    If you check the Abrahamic Covenant it was made between God and himself so the
    the national right to real estate without any merit or need to be holy or live by any certain religious values is true.
    .
    It is true that it is God’s faithfulness to perform his oath to Abraham,not the faithfulness of Jews who must live by religious values, that guarantees all Jews the inheritance or promises of Abraham as beneficiaries. This is the clear teaching of the scriptures concerning the land .

    Your understanding of John 8 is correct. You will find in Romans that Paul corroborates what Jesus said in John 8 by saying NOT ALL ISRAEL ARE ISRAEL. John 8 and Romans relates not to the land promise ( because they never really ever fully occupied the land because they were too lazy to drive out the people in Joshua’s day). Jesus and Paul are both speaking about the personal salvation of Jews who were still not abiding by the tenets of God’s Word.

    Note that Jesus even told these disobedient Jews that the DEVIL WAS THEIR FATHER. HE POINTED OUT THAT THEY DID NOT EVINCE OR DISPLAY THE FAITH AS EXHIBITED BY ABRAHA FOR WHICH ABRAHAM WAS HIGHLY COMMENDED AND CALLED THE FRIEND OF GOD AND FATHER OF THE FAITHFUL.

    The doctrine that the Jews have unconditional eternal security in Abraham’s covenant of circumcision and that salvation is without conditions is NOT TAUGHT BY CHRISTIANS.

    The Jew can believe what they wish there are NO conditions that terminates the Abrahamic Covenant.

    The Jews were dispersed TWICE under the conditional covenant at Sinai which they broke exactly as predicted by Moses .

    the Abrahamic Covenant will come fully into vogue after the second phase of the second common or the epiphanea when it is predicted that they will be converted then.

    All Jews that do not trust in God by faith in the shed blood of Christ ARE LOST AS GENTILES. The prerequisites for salvation is the SAME FOR ALL

    Before Calvary folk looked forward in faith to his death that is what the rituals the Jews practiced meant and prefigured AFYER CALVARY folk look back at the FINISHED WORK OPF CHRIST ON THE CROSS.

  51. Georgie Porgie

    Terence M. Blackett // June 8, 2010 at 7:25 PM

    @ GP Brother teacher – you continue to flex as if this is a gymnastics class or a nouvelle discipline in the HIGH JUMP*…It is neither my dear brother!!! A coin has two sides…

    I AM PUTTING THE BIBLICAL SIDE SIR

    We must be FREE* to show each side and let those who want to weigh in decide for themselves… AM I NOT FREE TOO SIR? I JUST ASKING YOU FOR SOME SCRIPTURES AND TEACHING SO THAT I CAN BE A TEACHER LIKE YOU OK . So raise the bar some more Sir. LOL

  52. I subscribe to the school of thought that says labeling humans is ignorant bollocks. In fact ‘they’ had to introduce a brand new box to tick on their ethnicity and religion group questionnaire forms because of me

    e.g.
    Q1. what is your ethnicity
    Q2. what is your religion

    ☞ prefer not to answer ✓

    People are People all over the whole world .
    Kid’s don’t know racism ✜ Adults teach them

    You can kiss me on my POO POO LA LA

  53. @ GP, Excellent, you got brother Terence bobbing and weaving, ducking all bout the place, so typical of SDA adherents, false, erroneous hermeneutics, he can’t even begin to seriously answer your potent, extremely relevant questions, hiding behind all of his intellectual nonsense, jumping all over the place, like a ‘butterfly’ in season! Shame on you Terence!

    The Seventh-day Adventist, have written the Nation of Israel entirely OUT of the Bible, God’s Word, re New Testament Biblical eschatology, which supports and confirms all that the OT Prophets said, re their restoration, as *Unconditionally* proclaimed by Almighty God; hence all of the vicious, diabolical diatribe that Terence writes about Israel. There is NO cogent, coherent, balance in anything that he says in this regard.

    I’ll be with you tomorrow morning GP, right now I’m hungry and tired, and we’ll let the Word of God, ‘rightly divided’ speak for itself, as IT exposes the unbiblical nonsense and folly of the SDA, et al, whose hermeneutics are DEAD wrong re Israel and the End Time scenario.

  54. Georgie Porgie

    TB

    I know that you dont like the concept of dispensations but how can one rightly divide the Word of Truth with out this particular “division”.

    It is the major reason you are at sea concerning the next dispensation..

    Here is a note to help those of your ilk Sir.

    A NOTE ON THE DISPENSATIONS

    First dispensation –
    Name: Innocence
    Duration: Creation to Fall of Adam and Eve
    Man’s Condition: Gen. 1:26-29, 32; 2:7,8,15,25
    God’s Requirements: Gen. 2:16-17
    Man’s Conduct: Gen. 3:6
    God’s Retribution: Gen. 2:17 3:6,8,10,16,19,23-24

    Second dispensation
    Name: Conscience
    Duration: The Fall to the flood
    Man’s Condition: Gen. 3:7-19
    God’s Requirements: Gen. 3:21, 4:4, 8:20 Heb. 11:4
    Man’s Conduct: Gen. 4:3,8. 4:17,22. 6:5,11-13
    God’s Retribution: Gen. 6:13,17. 7:4,10-12,17-24

    Third dispensation
    Name: Human Government
    Duration: Flood to Babel
    Man’s Conduct: Gen. 11:2-4
    God’s Retribution: Gen. 11:7-9

    Fourth Dispensation
    Name: Promise
    Duration: Abraham to the Law
    Man’s Condition: Gen. 12:1-3,7.d 13:14-17. 15:4,5,18. 17:6-8. 18:18. 22:15-18. 26:3. 28:13,14
    God’s Requirements: Gen. 17:9-13
    Man’s Conduct: Genesis 12 to Exodus 19God’s Retribution: Exodus 1-19

    Fifth Dispensation
    Name: Law
    Duration: Giving of the Law to Pentecost
    Man’s Condition: Ex. 2:23,25. 19:4
    God’s Requirements: Ex. 19:5-8. 20:1-17,22-26. 24:1-8,9. Deut. 6:16-25. 27:26
    Man’s Conduct: Ex. 32:1-4 II Kings 17:7-17 Math. 21:33-40 Acts 2:22,23. 7:51,52
    God’s Retribution: 2 Kings 17:1-6,18. 24:11-16. 25:1-21

    Sixth dispensation
    Name: Grace
    Duration: Pentecost to Second Coming
    Man’s Condition: Rom. 3:9-19,23 John 3:16,18. 5:24 Matt. 18:11
    God’s Requirements: John 1:12.d 3:16,18,36. 5:24. 6:29 Acts 16:31. 10:43 Rom. 4:5 10:9-10
    Man’s Conduct: Matt. 7:13,14 Luke 19:12-14,26,27. 18:8 John 3:19 I Tim. 4:1-3 I Tim. 3:1-5
    God’s Retribution: Matt. 24:37-41. 24:31-46 Luke 17:26-37 II Thes. 1:7,8. 2:3-11 Jude 14,15 Rev. 6:17 Rev. 4-19

    Seventh dispensation

    Name: Kingdom
    Duration: Second Coming to Great White Throne
    Man’s Condition: Is. 2:2-4 Amos 9:11-15 Micah 4:1-5 Micah 4:1-5 Acts 15:16-17 Rev. 20:1-6
    God’s Requirements: Ps. 72:5,9-11 Is. 26:9. 60:12 Jer. 23:5
    Man’s Conduct: Rev. 20:7-9 Is. 26:9-11
    God’s Retribution: Rev. 20:9

  55. Georgie Porgie

    What is the Abrahamic Covenant?
    How does the Abrahamic Covenant relate to the Christian?

    According to Scofield, ” The Abrahamic as Covenant as formed (Gen.12:1-4) and confirmed (Gen.13: 14-17: 15:1-7, 18-21: 17: 7:1-8) is in three aspects:

    1) The promise of a great nation: “I will make of thee a great nation” (Gen.12:2). This had primary reference to Israel, the descendants of Jacob, to whom the everlasting possession of the land is promised (Gen.17:8), to whom the everlasting covenant is given (Gen.17:7), and to whom He said, “I will be their
    God” (Gen.17:8). Abraham was also promised that he would father other nations (cp. Gen. 17:6,20), principally fulfilled through Ishmael and Esau.

    2) Four personal promises are given to Abraham:

    (a) to be the father of numerous descendants ( Gen.17:1 6).
    (b) To receive personal blessing, “I will bless thee,” fulfilled in two ways: temporally (Gen.13:14-15,17; 15:18; 24:34-35); and spiritually (Gen.l5:6; Jn.8:56). (c)

    c) To receive personal honor, “and make thy name great” (Gen. 12:2), fulfilled in recognition by all who honor the Bible.

    And (d) to be the channel of blessing, “And thou shalt be a blessing” (Gen.12:2), fulfilled: in blessings to others through his seed, Israel, who became the instruments of divine revelation; through Abraham as an
    example of pious faith (Rom.4:1-22); and preeminently through Christ, Abraham’s Seed (Gal.3:16).
    (
    3) Promises to the Gentiles. (a) “I will bless them that bless thee” (Gen.12:3). Those who honor Abraham will be blessed. (b) “And curse him that curseth thee” (Gen.12:3). This was a warning literally fulfilled in the history of Israel’s persecutions.

    It has invariably fared ill with the people who have
    persecuted the Jew -well with those who have protected them. For a nation to commit the sin of anti-Semitism brings inevitable judgement.

    The future will still more remarkably prove this principle ( Dt 30:7; Isa.14:1-2; Joel 3:1-8; Mic 5:7-9; Hag 2:22; Zech 14:1-3; Mt 25:40,45.

    (c) “In thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed ( Gen 12:3).

    This is the great evangelic promise fulfilled in Abraham’s Seed, Christ, and in all the spiritual seed of
    Abraham, who like Abraham are justified by faith (Rom 4:3; Gal 3:6-9,16,29; cp Jn 8:56-58).

    It gives added revelation and confirmation of the promise of the Adamic covenant concerning the seed of the woman. (Gen.3:15) .

    The Abrahamic covenant reveals the sovereign purpose of God to fulfill through Abraham his
    program for Israel and to provide in Christ the Saviour for all who believe the ultimate fulfillment is made to rest upon the divine promises and the power of
    God rather upon human faithfulness.” P 20 21 C.I. Scofield , Scofield Reference Bible.

    God first predicted personal blessings for Abraham, then for others. “The blessing on him may be construed as involving an heir, spiritual enjoyment and
    material provision. His name would be glorified by being known as father of the faithful and the father of a new race of people. Abraham’s blessings to others
    would occur in his own day as he acted as preservative salt (e.g., rescuing the people of the plain, Gen 14; and Lot , Gen 19) and would extend to subsequent
    generations through Christ or other descendants.

    He was to be the father of “a great nation”. But the covenant went beyond his posterity to include ” all
    families of the earth.” That could be fulfilled only through the ministry of Christ and the Scriptures ( produced through his descendants).

    Further God announced that treatment of Abram’s descendants would be the basis for blessing or judging the nations ( v.3). Again and again this principle is
    operative in the prophets as they pronounce judgement on the nations surrounding Israel for the treatment of his chosen people.

    The requirements of Abram’s call and covenant were faith and obedience; faith to believe that God would do as He promised and obedience to the command to leave his home and kindred and go to a land of God’s chosing as evidence of his faith. He fully met the requirements (Heb 11:8)

  56. Georgie Porgie

    The importance of the Abrahamic covenant

    In Genesis, chapter twelve, God tells Abram that he would make of him and his seed a great nation.

    In chapters fifteen and seventeen, we can read the full
    presentation of this covenant, which is full of promises to Abraham and his seed, promising an inheritance of many things, most notably an everlasting possession of land, abundant prosperity, and numerous posterity.

    If we are going to understand the rest of the Word of God, especially who Jesus Christ is, we must understand what this covenant is, and its significance.

    To study this issue in the Bible, however, we must acknowledge the unity of the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, we can see how that God, from the time of the curse in the Garden of Eden, promised that there would come a Saviour for His people (Gen 3:15). I

    In Genesis 12:3, this same promise is given to Abraham, couched in the terms, “In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Gen. 12:3) This was the declaration that through the line of Abraham
    would come the Messiah, who we know was revealed in the New Testament (Gal. 3:8).

    This is confirmed, and the greater importance of this covenant shown, as we are told in Galatians 3:8, 16-18 that this covenant was more than just a promise… It was the gospel of Christ foretold.

    Contained within the account of Moses going before the Lord prior to the giving of the law, God mentions a previous covenant (Ex. 19:5). It reads, “Now,
    therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant…” To which covenant was God referring? We know that, since this was prior to the giving of
    the Siniatic Law, as well as the Mosaic ceremonial covenant (Deut. 29:1, it cannot be referring to any ‘Mosaic covenant”.

    In Exodus 2:23, in reference to the people of Israel being in bondage, we learn that “God heard their groaning, and remembered his covenant” Which covenant did God remember? Certainly not one
    that had not been made yet! This teaches that God did not make an entirely new covenant at Sinai, but, rather, that he remembered the previous covenant- that
    which was made with Abraham.

    Hebrews 4:2 confirms the fact that the words which
    were “preached” to the children of Israel were actually the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    In Exodus 6:2-8, God confirms that His working through Moses was in reference to the original gospel covenant. In fact, Galatians chapter three, in
    addressing whether the ceremonial Law (which was the Mosaic substitute of the initial Abrahamic covenant- Deut. 29:1) was superior to the Abrahamic covenant,
    reads, “Now to Abraham and his SEED were the promises made… And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which
    was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more
    of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise” (vv. 16-19).

    This clearly identifies the covenant as being before the giving of the Law, with the ceremonial law being added later because of transgression (Exodus 32:9-10; v.
    19).

    Therefore, the Old Testament is that covenant between God and Abraham and his seed, who we are told, in Galatians 3:16, is not the children of Israel
    after the flesh, but Christ alone.

    This promise made to Abraham was the same
    promise made to Eve, that Christ would destroy the authority of the devil, even though He would be bruised in the process.

    This understanding explains the nature of Old Testament salvation. Many teach that it was through the works of the ceremonial law, but the Bible clearly
    teaches otherwise.

    Galatians chapter three, specifically, gives the answer,
    showing that all, including Abraham, are not saved by works, but by faith. This applies today to Jews and Gentiles alike. Verse 11 teaches us that “no man is
    justified by the law”. Instead, we see that one was saved through the same means as in the New Testament.

  57. Georgie Porgie

    Hebrews 11:1 tells us that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it, the elders obtained a good report.” They
    obtained a good report (i.e. salvation) by faith. This must be so, because verse six tells us that “without faith it is impossible to please (God).”

    So we know that only through faith is one saved, and verse 13 tells us that the Old Testament saints died in faith… but faith in what? The answer to this question
    is found in verse 39, which shows that these people obtained a good report through faith, but even so, they received not the promise.

    This promise is what they had faith in, and it was that faith that brought them a good report- eternal life, the salvation of the soul. But what was the promise, and how does it apply to the Old Covenant?

    Galatians 3:16 teaches us that, “to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” The promise was given to Abraham and his seed, who is Christ Jesus.

    Acts 13:23 tells us that, “Of this man’s (David’s) seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour.” So, therefore, the promise referred
    to was that the Saviour would be raised to redeem to his people from their sins. It was faith in the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ, that brought a good report to
    the people.

    This applies to the Old Testament, in that the Abrahamic Covenant was a promise made to Jesus Christ, the seed of Abraham, that he would be made great, the father of many nations, and that in him would all nations of the earth be blessed, with curses falling upon those that cursed Him.

    This is why Galatians 3:8 called the ‘Abrahamic’ covenant ‘the gospel’. The true Old Testament/ Covenant was always a covenant of promise… for salvation through Jesus Christ to those of faith.

    The confusion come as a result of misunderstanding as to the substitued covenant, which was built upon inferior
    promises (Heb. 8:6) than those shown to Abraham and Moses, as well as any others of faith (Ex. 19:5,6; fulfilled in Christ always, 1 Peter 2:9).

    Old Testament salvation, therefore was the same as New Testament salvation… faith in Jesus Christ. The only difference is that the Old Testament saints died
    in faith before they were given the righteousness of Christ; the New Covenant saint receives this righteousness upon calling upon the name of the Lord.

    Therefore, The Old Testament was a Covenant of Promise… For The New.the Abrahamic Covenant has a threefold provision to the descendants of Abraham.
    God promised to Abraham (and to his physical posterity); Land, Seed (i.e. A great Nation), and that through his seed, there will be a BLESSING to all the
    nations of the world.

    Each of these three aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant are later amplified in the other three unconditional covenants. The Land promised in
    the context of the Abrahamic Covenant is amplified in the Palestinean Covenant.

    The “Seed” (i.e. great Nation) aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant is amplified in the Davidic Covenant, and lastly the “Blessing” aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant
    is amplified in the New Covenant.

    The phrase “I WILL” occurs seven times in the
    wording of the Abrahamic Covenant , twelve times in the Palestinian Covenant, seven in the Davidic Covenant , and seven times in the New Covenant. This
    clearly marks them as Unconditional Covenants, and therefore does not make their fulfillment conditional on human faithfulness.

  58. Isaac was the child of promise not his brothers, when the angel appeared to Abram and Sarah, it was to prophesy of their child of their union, not abram’s children of another union. Jesus got his royal lineage through Joseph his step father,(read Mathew, Joseph descended from David), showing God fully recognized the importance of adoption, which is seen from the beginning to the end of the bible. Christians do not discount Abraham’s other children but Isaac was God’s choice. the others still count but not for the purpose for which God had for Isaac. Jesus had other brothers and sisters too but only he was God’s chosen and for a special reason. it does not change the fact that the siblings all came from Mary, what is different is that Jesus was and still is God’s child of promise.

  59. @BU SME’s (Subject Matter Experts)

    I really hate y’all Know It All’s

    Tony Tuff – Mista Know It All

    Back To Back – Tony Tuff
    VOLCANO 1983

    Separate tags with commas.
    X Dancehall X Disco X DJ X Reggae Music

  60. @ ZOE & GP

    I am much more DIGNIFIED* than you give me credit for…

    Again I need to remind ZOE* that I am not easily moved or swayed by innuendo or unnecessary macabre gesticulations of a personal nature – i.e symptomoly of BAJAN* mentality and the ruminations of the “gutter” politics (religiously & otherwise) we see in our Houses of PARLIAMENT*, rumshops and place of angst and mayhem…

    It is the childish egotistical machinations we see being inspired by “pin-heads” like JACK BOWMAN* who challenges CHRIS HALSALL to a show-down at “HIGH-NOON” on the Garrison Savannah (reminiscent of the sociology of the (WILDWEST) ridiculously pushing this kindergarden type, bully-in-the-playground psyche…

    Jesus could have fought his adversaries with sticks and stones but chose to WIN* through LOVE*…

    What is glaringly dangerous are people who believe that because they hang [2] words together that they have poetic license to treat others less fortunate in any manner they choose and still claim the rite* to represent GOD*…

    How deceived are we???

    This is not a “show-down” at the OK Corral between you guys and I…

    This is not some facetious contestation to prove who has the biggest GONADS*…

    This is not an ARAB-jewery feud where nobody wins!!!

    If as individuals we understand (WITH ALL DUE RESPECT) what admiration and value for other people giftings entails – then our appreciation for eachother would be FREE* from what some called diatribe…

    I am a TRUE JEW* ( both anthropologically and spiritually) which give me the “right” to critique the historical traditions from my foreparents and I have emerged… We did not choose our parents or our geographical station in this life – neither did we choose all the battles we would find ourselves in…

    God is the ONE* responsible for that process – for there are “FORCES” outside our comprehension!!!

    If those who have been grafted in by CHRIST* take the position to advance, protect and prop up a posthumous edifice which no longer has relevance – then that’s on them…

    Good LUCK* to you guys!!!

    I know better and so does millions of others…

    The only ones who hold “MOST FAVORED NATION STATUS WITH GOD – ARE THOSE WHO HAVE ACCEPTED THE LORD JESUS CHRIST”!!!

    If you guys want to argue needlessly – I am not the one who has decided that abovementioned position – IT IS CHRIST WHO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH, not your humble servant!!!

  61. @ ZOE

    You keep using this “broken harp” of my position as a S.D.A follower without all the FACTS* in an almost sinister device to undermine my intellectual as well as spiritual creditability…

    But that’s fine my dear brother, I AM IN GREAT COMPANY!!!

    Maybe (and that’s a “BIG” if), the following privileged info which I am about to divulge from our University here in the UK should give you an idea of how hard we as S.D.A are working to (AT LEAST) to find some common ground with our MUSLIM* brothers who “seem” to have another form of belief…

    Here we go:

    1. Do you think Islam is a religion of the “Antichrist”?
    2. Is Islam a true revealed religion?
    3. Is Islam a monotheistic religion? And what does monotheism really mean? The belief in one God? But is Islam a monotheistic religion but non-saving?
    4. Is Islam not your concern?

    Many would argue that it is not their concern but something happen on September 11, 2001 that changed all that forever…

    Just as 9-11 changed the world forever – so did 7 / 7 in London; the bombings in Madrid, Spain and terrorists attacks in Lebanon, Kenya, Mumbai, Pakistan, Iraq and wherever Al Queda and its affiliates choose to strike in any part of the world…

    With all the images that are being fed to us by the news media, the question must be asked – what is Islam?

    The word “Islam” comes from the root word “Salem” which means surrender.

    The word in the Hebrew also means “peace”… So if Islam is a religion of peace and one who practices Islam is called a Muslim – one who has surrendered to the will of God – many would ask – where is the peace in Islam?

    But IN ALL HONESTY* the same question could be asked of Christianity and the history of its long and bloodied march over the last 2000 years.

    Many keep asking where can we find the love in Christianity – if Jesus is meant to be the EPITOME* of LOVE?

    When did Islam emerge?

    Some 600- 700 years after Christ Islam emerged as a dominant religion.

    Research reveal that 1 out of every 5 persons in the world TODAY* is a Muslim.

    In the UK, 1 out of every 30 persons is a Muslim.

    By the year 2050, 1 out every 2 persons born into the world will be Muslim…

    Interesting…

    The question is – how will God bridge the gap between Muslim & Christians?

    What is God’s plan of cooperation for the saving of mankind before the coming of Jesus Christ?

    Five Iranian religious scholars solicited an audience with Professors at Newbold College in the UK regarding the “Coming of Jesus Christ” because they wanted to have some specific questions answered…

    One pivotal question was – (based on the soon coming of Jesus Christ), how does this affect your hearts as Christians?

    The second question was equally poignant.

    With the knowledge that Jesus Christ is coming again and the world will go through a dramatic change – how does your community relations change?

    The third question asked was (and this was the “curve ball”) – how does your social and political standing in the society change given the soon coming of Jesus?

    These were serious questions and how do we answer those who recognize that as Seventh Day Adventists we have in our hands something far in excess of any nuclear bomb in terms of its impact on the world and what the coming of Jesus will mean to a world that is currently running on borrowed time…

    Just imagine for a moment – Iranian professors with a PhDs (and in some cases 2 & 3 ) some specializing in the “2nd Coming of Jesus Christ” wanting to discuss the finer points of eschatology and the writing and teaching of the S.D.A Church especially given what the servant of the Lord E.G. White had to say – given that there was no profound defense, far less offence of the truth as given by those esteemed gentlemen who sat in the round table discussion forum at Newbold College in the summer of 2008…

    Christians are not trained to talk to Muslims especially those who are extremely learned (no wonder we can’t reach Minister Farrakhan)…

    We either do not have the tools because of a lack of training or we are on the other extreme because we are conditioned to say judgmental things to them – reinterpreting Scripture out of its proper context…

    These Muslim professors concluded that if the 2nd coming of Jesus will bring about such changes in our world, then we must tell the whole world about it…

    Try to get some so-called Christian folks to evangelize far less proselytize!!!

    Here is a Muslim is admonishing S.D.A to go out and tell the whole world about the coming of Jesus Christ…(what an oxymoron – go figure)

    They suggested that the internet should be flooded with this information.

    But here was the clincher!!!

    They asked – how many websites on the internet do you think you’ll find on the 2nd coming of Jesus?

    Thousands possibly?

    No, they said…

    There’s ONLY ONE!!!

    Is the website Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Pentecostal, Adventist or any other of the 261 Christian religion?

    No they said!!!

    The only website on the internet is a MUSLIM* site dedicated to the coming of Jesus –

    http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

    Most Christian websites will have as part of their belief systems a small section on their site devoted to the 2nd coming to Jesus but this Muslim website in total is dedicated almost exclusively to the 2nd Coming of Jesus…

    This website shows [138] signs which will precede the coming of Jesus out of which a [120] have already been fulfilled.

    So why is proselytizing the coming of Christ left to a Muslim website when the message is one for Christians?

    A fair question…

    So how do we take “THE MESSAGE OF JESUS” to the Muslim and how do we bring an understanding of “THE MUSLIM AND THE QU’RAN” to the Christian so as to bridge this increasing massive divide?

    The answer is none less than the message JESUS gave -

    We must teach the Muslim to love Jesus as we are to teach the Christian to love the Muslim.

    In the Qu’ran chapter 3 vs. 36, 55 it says:

    “O Jesus, I will make those who follow you, **SUPERIOR** to all others who reject faith until the day of resurrection”…

    So what the Qu’ran is saying is that from the 1st century until the resurrection, no religion will be higher than the one who believes in Jesus…. (PLAIN & SIMPLE)…

    Most Muslims who are intellectually honest (and they are many) are truly children of God will have this longing for truth deep in their heart and will recognize from a deep study of the Qu’ran that no one is as worthy as Jesus – The Christ…

    To reach out to our Muslim brothers and sisters – for if we are led by the “Spirit of God” we will be able by way of discernment to know who is searching because they will possess kingdom attributes…

    We must meet them on a level playing field of trust and equality – not on some religious pretense which distinguishes us from them because of our so-called faith in Christ.

    We must see them as fellow believers who too are on a spiritual journey…

    As TRUE* Christians, there is clarity about our distinctions – but it is NOT* a deterrent but rather a cause for celebration and exploration as we seek to know the truth better and to live for JESUS!!!

    And so for almost 18 centuries, Christianity meandered from one degree of apostasy to another – now GOD* is raising up a Movement* of people (saints) with the truth for an end-time generation that would cater to Muslim*, Hindu*, Buddhist* and every other religious entity on the face of the earth – bring the love and CHRIST to lost world…

    SO MAYBE YOU BOYS COULD SINK YOUR TEETH IN THOSE CHOPS!!!

  62. Georgie Porgie

    • Ms anon
    You correctly opine that “Isaac was the child of promise not his brothers, when the angel appeared to Abram and Sarah, it was to prophesy of their child of their union, not abram’s children of another union.”

    However. You are incorrect that Jesus got his royal lineage through Joseph his step father,(read Mathew, Joseph descended from David), showing God fully recognized the importance of adoption, which is seen from the beginning to the end of the bible.

    Mary was also descended from David via another line . David had several sons eh?
    Note that in both Matt 1 and Luke 3 it is nowhere said that Joseph begat Jesus, or this would contradict the prediction of the prote evangelium in Genesis 3:15 or the promise of the virgin who would conceive in Isaiah 7:14 or the seminal truth presented by Paul on the Headship of Christ vs the Headship of Adam in Romans 5

  63. Georgie Porgie

    Mr Blackett Sir,
    As a man who is supposed to be a PhD and a scholar and an author and a researcher and God knows not…………..including a man who has “raised the bar” by posting a stupid article on BU which you confess to have plagiarised from the internet….Greeting!

    One wonders why you rant in rokoid or rokesque fashion, Sir.

    YOU came with some junk on Isaiah 60, and it was debunked! Since then you have been running around in circles like a chicken whose neck has been cut off.

    You talk about dignity, and you a PhD and a scholar and an author and a researcher plagiarizing junk?

    I posted an extract from a essay I wrote ten years ago for the course DISPENSATIONS & COVENANTS which was part of my MDiv. Not only did I present my work but I presented the relevant references from Scripture.

    You a PhD and a scholar and an author and a researcher, and a man who has “raised the bar” brought plagiarized junk to BU. Now in your dignity you go off again on a tangent?

    How did innuendo or unnecessary macabre gesticulations of a personal nature, ruminations of the “gutter” politics we see in our Houses of PARLIAMENT*, rumshops and place of angst and mayhem… get into this discussion Oh most dignified “raiser of bars on BU?

    How is JACK BOWMAN vs CHRIS HALSALL at “HIGH-NOON” on the Garrison Savannah relevant to this discussion, Oh dignified scholar and “raiser of the bar”?

    It is true that Jesus could have fought his adversaries with sticks and stones but chose to WIN* through LOVE*. And here I lovingly presented part of my own work on DISPENSATIONS & COVENANTS, and you liken it to a “show-down” at the OK Corral?

    You say “ What is glaringly dangerous are people who believe that because they hang [2] words together that they have poetic license to treat others less fortunate in any manner they choose and still claim the rite* to represent GOD*…

    That is not very loving Oh dignified self confessed plagiariser!

    Are you telling us that Terrence Blackett is also glaringly dangerous when he hangs two words together? Is that not a case of the pot calling the kettle black?
    .
    TB ma boy I don’t have poetic license, but I have searched and studied the Scripture systematically and soundly so I can present what the Word really says. Ah lie?

    Why do you have your knickers all in a twist Sir. And certainly you are not less fortunate in any manner they choose and still claim the rite* to represent GOD*…

    We are not decieved Sir. But can you tell us how much more of the articles you gave presented on BU that was plagiarized?

    TB I am glad that you have converted from being a Muslim to being a TRUE JEW* ( both anthropologically and spiritually) , and accept that this gives you the right to critique the historical traditions from which you and your foreparents have emerged

    So do I as a person struggling Paul records in Romans 7 to live the Christian life also have the right to present the truths of the Scriptures as I, and many understand them?

    Are you saying that your junk should not be debunked?

    Can you bring a relevant references to support this statement below Sir

    “The only ones who hold “MOST FAVORED NATION STATUS WITH GOD – ARE THOSE WHO HAVE ACCEPTED THE LORD JESUS CHRIST”!!!”

    Can you indeed “ raise the bar?”

  64. Georgie Porgie

    The following “chain” of scriptures will demonstrate the magnitude of the importance of the Abrahamic Covenant as seen in the thinking of the Jewish
    People over a period of two thousand years.

    The Abrahamic Covenant was confirmed
    to:

    (1) ISAAC, GENESIS 26:1-4
    (2) JACOB, GENESIS 28:12-14
    (3) MOSES, LEVITICUS 26:42-45, DEUTERONOMY 1:8, 6:10, 9:5
    (4) JOSHUA, JOSHUA 1:6
    (5) ISRAEL, BEFORE THE CAPTIVITY 11 KINGS 13:23
    (6) ISRAEL, AFTER THE CAPTIVITY 1CHRONICLES 16:13-16
    (7) KING DAVID, PSALM 105:1-11 It was still anticipated 2,000 years later by:
    (8) MARY, THE MOTHER OF JESUS, LUKE 1:46-55
    (9) ZECHARIAS, THE FATHER OF JOHN THE BAPTIST, LUKE 1:67-73

    The importance of the Abrahamic Covenant just cannot be emphaized enough.

    Failure to realize that this Covenant forms the blueprint for the rest of Divine Revelation will cause the Student of the Word of God to miss the “key” to the
    flow of the remainder of the Scripture narrative.

    According to George Peters the Abrahamic Covenant contained the formative principles, the nucleus of the Plan of Redemption; and that all future revelations is an unveiling, a developing, a preparation for the ultimate
    fulfilment of that covenant, and of the Kingdom incorporated in the predictions and promises relating to that covenant…”

    All prophecy must be understood in the light of the Covenants with Israel, or else it will lead to all types of
    fanciful, fanatical and subjective interpretations.

    .

  65. Georgie Porgie

    As pointed out above the Abrahamic covenant was presented or reaffirmed many times.

    One of these is given in Genesis 15 where God cut the contract with himself as recvealed also in Hebrews 6:19 et secq

    Genesis 15 is account of the covenant meal which was part of the ritual of “cutting a contract” or berith in that day.

    God had previously promised Abraham a land that would forever belong to his posterity. And now God was promising it again. This time Abraham responded;

    “God said to Abram, “I am the LORD who led you out of Ur of Babylonia so that I could give you this land to own.” But Abram said, “Lord GOD, how can I be sure
    that I will own this land?” Genesis 15:7-8

    God told Abraham to gather five different animals, a cow, a goat, a she-goat, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

    This all had to do with the solemn nature of the Covenant which God was about to establish with Abraham. In those ancient days, when two parties made a meaningful agreement about something, an animal was sacrificed, split open down the middle, and the two parties would walk hand in hand, up and down the path between the sacrificed animal.

    This covenant which God was about to make with
    Abraham had such far-reaching ramifications into the flow and development of human history, that five animals were called for (Five, throughout the Scripture
    is ALWAYS used to signify the number of Grace.)

    To further emphasize the unconditional nature of this covenant, and to demonstrate that the basis of the fulfillment of the promises was completely dependent on God alone, the Lord put Abram into a deep sleep. This way God arranged that He alone would pass through the carcasses of those slain sacrifices.

    Note the record: “As the sun was going down, Abram fell into a deep sleep. While he was asleep, a very terrible darkness came.” Geneses 15:12 And
    then comes the “strange” description of God which we spoke above.

    It is a description of “GOD” passing between the pieces of the sacrifices but what a strange description it is. Note it well; “After the sun went down, it was very
    dark. Suddenly a smoking firepot and a blazing torch passed between the halves of the dead animals.” Genesis 15:17

    “FIREPOT”, is from the Hebrew, “Tannur” and literally means “a baking oven”. “SMOKING”, comes from a word which is usually used figuratively to describe the
    vapor coming from the nostrils of enraged animals. It is therefore figuratively used when describing ANGER.

    The “smoking furnace” speaks of the Lord’s burning Anger, which was not, to any significant degree, expressed during His First Advent. Oh, but
    read those dreaded words which describe The Wrath of the Lamb at His second Advent. “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be
    revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, IN FLAMING FIRE taking VENGEANCE on
    them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Thessolians” 1:7,8

    Listen to John, as he provides us with a description of
    the Wrath of our Lord as He deals with His enemies in that time of awful Tribulation; “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
    and every mountain and island w re moved out of their places.

    And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that forever sits on the throne, and FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB: FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?” Revelation 6:14-17.

    John goes on; “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with FIRE and BRIMSTONE in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT will ascend up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor
    night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever will receive the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11

    Those passages which speak of the Divine Wrath of the Lamb, at His second Advent certainly illustrate the “Smoking furnace”.

    But what about the “Flaming Lamp”? As the former metaphor spoke of the second Advent of Christ, so this “Flaming Lamp” metaphor describes our Lord in His FIRST Advent. The word “Lamp” is “Lappidh”, and means a “Torch”. It corresponds to the figure used by Christ Himself that He was “the Light of the
    World” “John 9:5.

    “People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. Those who do not believe have already been judged guilty, because they have not believed in God’s one and only Son. They are judged by this fact: The Light has come into the world, but they did not want light. They wanted darkness, because they were doing evil things.” John 3:19-21.

    Therefore, the description of God as a burning LIGHT pictures Him coming to sinful man, as the LIGHT of the world, reaching out to the human family in Mercy.

    We wonder if two more seemingly contradictory images could be used to describe that One who passed through the slain pieces of those Sacrificial animals. BUT “RIGHT THERE BETWEEN THOSE SACRIFICES”, IS THE KEY.

    Those sacrificial animals, all of which pointed to different aspects of the sacrificial death of Christ was
    the only Divinely appointed place where those (seeming) conflicting attributes of God could CO-exist together.

    It was there they walked together, as though in
    fellowship, between that bloody path between the slain carcasses of those five sacrifices.. The “smoking furnace” which visualizes the perfect righteousness of
    God, and His expressed outrage against sin, in His Divine Wrath!

    The “burning lamp” speaks of the Mercy and the Truth of God expressed in His wondrous Grace. How could those attributes ever exist side by side and be satisfied! How could God’s perfect righteousness (which demands death to the erring sinner) and His
    Mercy CO-exist? How can God ever love the sinner, and truly hate sin

    This was THE “supposed” dilemma which Paul answered in Roman 3. If God ever forgave a sinner, then His righteousness would be compromised, His holiness would be diminished, for sin, before a HOLY God, must be punished, His holiness demands it.

    Listen to Paul’s words. “Whom God hath set forth (i.e. Jesus) to be a propitiation (literally, a Mercy Seat, where the covering of blood was sprinkled yearly) through faith in his blood, TO DECLARE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS for the remission of sins that are past, (i.e. the O.T.) through the forbearance of
    God; TO DECLARE, I say, AT THIS TIME HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT HE MIGHT BE JUST,
    AND THE JUSTIFIER OF HIM WHICH BELIEVETH IN JESUS. (Romans 3:25b,26)

    It took something drastic for all those attributes to compliment each other, but God PLANNED a way. Nowhere, in all of Holy writ, is this more dramatically and beautifully illustrated than in the following words. “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Psalm 85:10

    Just note some detailed observations on Psalm 85:10. “Mercy”- There are five Hebrew words which are translated “Mercy” in our English versions. This one is “chesed”, “That Mercy which is abundant, extraordinary, or UNCOMMON.”

    “MET” is one of eight Hebrew words translated “met” in our English versions. This word is “POGASH” which means, “…to meet, as one meets another on the road, AND IN A HOSTILE MANNER.” (cp. Genesis 32:17, Exodus 4:24, Proverbs 7:10-15, 11:12, 22:2,
    29:13)

    It was at Calvary, where all those OT sacrifices pointed, where Mercy and Truth “MET” (in a hostile way) together. “HOSTILE” because our SIN and His Holiness
    “MET” and the dear Lamb of God was slain in our behalf.

    For the first time in human history “Righteousness and Peace”, (two attributes of God which could never be simultaneously expressed to sinful man), KISSED each other.

    This is the Theological and Philosophical reason why God can indeed JUSTIFY a sinner, and still remain Just. Any other way would sully the reputation of God, and blemish His character.

    Thank God for the Illustration of the “Flaming Torch”, and the “Smoking Furnace”, two totally different descriptions of (what appears to us to be contradictory attributes of God in the Human experience).

    Those five slain animals pointed to Calvary, and so does the Spirit of the Lord throughout this age proclaim the wondrous message to all who will listen. “Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the World.”

    This explanation of Genesis 15 modified from Peters writings of a century or two ago clearly explains the relationship of the Abrahamic Covenant to all
    Christians.

  66. Georgie Porgie

    Blackett, the “bar raiser” writes
    1 The question is – how will God bridge the gap between Muslim & Christians?

    MY QUESTION IS DOES GOD HAVE TO BRIDGE THE GAP BETWEEN MUSLIM AND CHRISTIANS?

    Kindly cite the references for this Sir?

    Surely the Bible teaches that the gap to be bridged is between the INDIVIDUAL AND GOD. Ah lie?

    2 What is God’s plan of cooperation for the saving of mankind before the coming of Jesus Christ?

    ANSWER GOD HAS ALREADY REVEALED HIS SALVATION PLAN FOR SAVING MANKIND IN HIS WORD starting at Genesis 3:15-19 with the prote eveangelium. WE DO NOT NEED TO REINVENT THE WHEEL. DO WE?

    Blackett, the “bar raiser” writes

    These Muslim professors concluded that if the 2nd coming of Jesus will bring about such changes in our world, then we must tell the whole world about it… Try to get some so-called Christian folks to evangelize far less proselytize!!!

    CHRISTIAN FOLK HAVE BEEN EVANGELIZING FOR CENTURIES BLACKETT….. WHICH YOU KNOW PERFECTLY WELL!

    Re The only website on the internet is a MUSLIM* site dedicated to the coming of Jesus
    http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

    THIS IS A BIG LIE BLACKETT WHERE DID YOU PLAGIARIZE THAT FROM?

    FOR A START TRY RAPTURE READY SIR http://www.raptureready.com/

    Then there is Hal Lindsay and Jack Van Impe who every week relate current world events to Bible Prophesy

    Mr BLACKETT ARE YOU EVER ACCURATE ABOUT ANYTHING?
    DO YOU THINK THROUGH ANYTHING THOROUGHLY?
    ARE YOU INDEED CAPABLE?

    I have been hard on Rok here on BU but he NEVER claims to be a researcher or a scholar or an author or a bar raiser. He is genuinely who he is, BUT YOU ARE A LIAR AND AN IMPOSTOR AND A SELF CONFESSED PLAGIARISER, inter alia!

    Now come on friend RAISE THE BAR, man.

  67. @Terence, “I am much more DIGNIFIED than you give me credit for…”

    I’m sure you are, Terence, BUT, your dignity, STATUS, cachet, standing, etc, etc., most certainly does not exempt you from the *ignorance* you so willingly display in your harangue on the Jews and Israel, and this IS obviously so, from the Seventh-day-Adventist perspective that the ‘Church’ has replaced ‘Israel’ which you so aptly display on June 8, 2010, @5:34PM, “…and God had in mind the restoration of the humane race through Messiah and HIS* throne over into the Kingdom of God – THE CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    I say this to you, Terence, in all seriousness and sincerity, that your eschatological position in dismissing ‘Israel’ as having been replaced by the ‘Church’ is a very dangerous position to assume, as you are for all intent and purpose, *cursing* Israel, away from its God-given right, to that Land, so emphatically annouced and proclaimed, time and time again, throughout the Old Testament, and assiduously reaffirmed by the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Romans.

    I will quote from “A Basic Text in Premillennial Theology, The Millennial Kingdom” by Professor John F. Walvoord, Chancellor of Dallas Theological Seminary.

    This subject matter is an extremely deep and intense theological matter, terribly misunderstood by many, but, ably explained and presented by Walvoord.

    The following is just the Preface of this great book.

    “The Apostle Paul, in expressing the Biblical hope of resurrection, delivered the dramatic pronouncement: “If we have only hope in Christ, in this life we are of all men most pitiable.” (1Cor. 15:19). What is true of the hope of resurrection is true of Christian hope in general. Faith without hope is just as dead as faith without works. The study of prophecy embracing as it does the TOTALITY of God’s purpose and plan as revealed in the Scriptures is therefore neither trival nor unimportant, but the vital heart of ALL that is included in Christian faith. Though it is to be expected that the interpretation of prophecy should encounter difficulties, it is nevertheless the supreme goal of Biblical theology to determine what is the ordered and detailed program of future events prophesied in the Word of God.”

    “The interpretation of the prophetic Scriptures require certain essential presuppositions without which the study of prophecy becomes empty speculation. It must be assumed, first, that the Bible speakd with the same inspiration, accuracy, and authority in matters of prophecy as can be observed in its historical and theological sections. The study of prophecy is an impossibility for an intelligent liberal who denies the inspiration of the Bible for him there can be no certain prophetic Word. Though liberals have attempted to debate subjects relating to prophetic truth, their writings are usually only learned statements of unbelief and incredulity and reveal an essential agnosticism as far as revelation of the future is concerned.”

    “Even among those who accept the inspiration of the Bible and do not question its verbal accuracy, serious division has arisen on the proper method of interpreting prophecy. The question is whether prophecy should be interpreted literally or not. This issue was raised in the writings of early church fathers and was brought to a head in the third century in the Alexandrian school of theology, which attempted to give ALL Scripture an ALLEGORICAL or nonliteral meaning. Among the orhodox fahers Augustine countered the Alexandrian heresy by suggesting a two-fold principle of interpretation of Scripture, namely, a literal interpretation of Scripture as a whole, but a spiritual or nonliteral interpretation of prophetic Scripture. With this presupposition he was able to DENY a future millennium, and became the principle source of amillennialism as it is taught today.”

    “It is this literal interpretation of Scripture which is the CRUX of the whole argument between amillenarian who denies a future millennial reign of Christ, and the premillenarian who affirm it.”

    “There is a growing consciousness within the church that premillennialism IS more than a dispute on the twentieth chapter of Revelation and that instead it involves a system of interpretation of the ENTIRE Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. The doctrine of a future millennium on earth affects the interpretation of the *Abrahamic covenant* with its promises to Israel of inheriting the LAND promised to Abraham their forefather. It is by careful distinction of the promises made to Abraham, the promises made to Abraham’s physical SEED, and the promises made to Abraham’s *spiritual* seed as contained in both the Old and New Testaments, that a full premillennial explanation is given to the Abrahamic covenant.”

    “Even more specific is its relation to premillennialism is God’s covenant with David in which Davis IS promised that his descendants would RULE over the house of Israel FOREVER. This covenant is reiterated several times in the Old Testament, and is specifically repeated to Mary in connection with the birth of Christ. If interpreted literally it leads inevitably to the doctrine of a future reign of Christ on earth to fulfill these promises.”

    “Premillennialism is also related to the literal fulfillment of the new covenant revealed in Jeremiah and Ezekiel. this covenant pictures a period in humane history when God would replace the Mosaic covenant with a new covenant which He would write upon their hearts. It would be fulfilled in the period when Israel would no longer need to teach every man his neighbour and proclaim the truth of Jehovah, for as the prophet wrote: “They shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah.” (Jer. 31:31). The promises to Abraham, the promises to David, the promises to Israel of future POSSESSION of the Land, and the promises to Jeremiah that Israel would CONTINUE as long as the sun and moon endure (Jer. 31:35-36) combine to provide a symphony of prophetic truth which IS the grand prelude to the millennial reign of Christ.”

    “To the Old Testament picture the New Testament adds its continuing revelation of future things. Of prime importance to the premillennial interpretation of Scripture, is the DISTINCTION provided in the New Testament between God’s present purpose for the church, and His purpose for the nation of Israel. Individuals who are descendants of Jacob in this present age have equal privilege with Gentiles in putting their trust in Christ and forming the body of Christ the church. The New Testament as well as the Old, however, makes clear that the Nation of Israel as such has ITS promises fulfilled ultimately in the future reign of Christ over them. At the time Israel will be His people and God will be their God. The New Testament makes plain according to the premillennial interpretation that God’s present purpose is not the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament of the kingdom reign on earth during which Satan will be bound and all nations will come to worship at the feet of the King of Kings, Jesus Christ. The present age, according to premillennial interpretation, IS the fulfillment of God’s plan and purpose, revealed in the New Testament, to call out a people from Jew and Gentile alike to form a new body of saints. It is only when this purpose is completed that God can bring to pass the tragic judgments which precede the millennial reign of Christ and inaugurate the righteousness and peace which characterize the millennial Kingdom.” (pp. 5-8) emphasis added.

    More on this later!

  68. Georgie Porgie

    Zoe

    You could not have quoted a better source.
    But TB has stated earlier in the year his abhorrence of DTS.

    But main line theological thought rate Walvoord and Ryrie and Chaffer et al

  69. @ ZOE

    “I say this to you, Terence, in all seriousness and sincerity, that your eschatological position in dismissing ‘Israel’ as having been replaced by the ‘Church’ is a very dangerous position to assume..”

    My dear brother, THAT’S “YOUR” OPINION (PLAIN & SIMPLE)…

    I couldn’t even tell that to my 4 year old grandson – he’d laugh at me and ask me if I am GOD*…

  70. @ GP

    Maybe you should join JACK BOWMAN & CH on the GARRISON Savannah -

    Your tactics becomes you and like spoiled children who throw tantrums you are well placed in the scrum to grovel with BOWMAN and his ilk…

    And on that note – have a blessed day and I will not be doing tete a tete with you or anyone else in a vainglorious attempt at egomania and time space distanciation…

  71. This foolishness about the jews being god’s chosen people, is absurd. It is more disgusting, to echo those sentiments, if you’re a black, asian or hispanic person. Let me tell you why, do any of you pseudo intellectuals believe, that any european on this planet can conceive, that god is black? Then why the hell, would you brainwashed negroes, think that the thing in which you most believe, takes on the characteristic of a european? Negro please! There’s a saying in the white establishment of the USA, “All you have to do ,is give a negro a title and a set of keys, and they will do whatever you want.” Don’t most of you get tired, constructing foolish thoughts, and meaningless soliloquy? Why are we as a people not able to establish an Afri(k)an centered environment to teach our children and grandchildren, thus leaving a legacy of non-european centered exploitation for them. Please permit me to say to you, the people who I so dearly love, europeans care less for us now, than at any time in our lifetime. Look, ten percent of the inhabitants of this world, control ninety percent of the world’s people and resources. Why brothers and sisters, are they able to have this control? It is because they have mastered mis-information, manipulation and deceit. Europeans don’t believe that they are “Superior to us, they believe that we’re inferior to them.” Inferior in how we think, behave and ultimately control our resources, both financial, social and spiritual. They have devised religion to keep us under control, and to seperate us when necessary. If you must believe in something or someone, I’m not suggesting that we all not believe in a diety, or supreme architect of this grand universe, but we should start by believing in ourselves. My beautiful brothers and sisters, we’re like “Lambs, led to the slaughter.” Often times because we are the most giving and trusting people on the planet, we’re taken advantage of, mistreated and manipulated. It is only due to our immense ability to survive, that we have not become extinct. European religion, something that europeans don’t believe in themselves, has cannibalized our Island nations, and even enslaved most of us mentally. If we don’t wake up from the misery of our past, tell me when will we rise, oh mighty people? This blog offers a tremendous insight into “We the people” however, to spend an inordinate amount of time on the King James version of hyprocrisy, is a waste of time. Afri(k)a needs our help, Afri(k)ans need our prayers. When I say Afri(K)a I mean black people all over the world. In case you did not notice, or were not paying attention, white folks have already screwed up this planet enough.

  72. The ABRAHAMIC Covenant?

    Was it unconditional?

    Absolutely NOT!!!

    Genesis 17:11 – “And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and IT SHALL BE A TOKEN of the covenant betwixt me and you….”

    v.13, “He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant…

    v.14m “And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people;he hath broken my covenant”.. (KJV).

    We all AGREE* that circumcision was then the outward token of the Covenant, BUT NOT THE COVENANT.

    God had already found Abraham worthy and he had already been saved and imputed righteous while he was uncircumcised and while he was still a Gentile (Genesis 26:5).

    Abraham, Isaac,and Jacob were all Semetic by racial stock at this time historically and NOT* some modern JEWISH social construction we find prevalent in our world!!!

    GEN 15:6 says “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness…”

    Jer.6:10 says, “To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it…”

    Jer. 9:26, Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon and Moab and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart….” (OMG)

    Eze. 44:9 “Thus saith the Lord GOD; no stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel…”

    ACTS 7:51, “Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye…”

    ISA.24:5, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant…” [religious faith that circumcision was the token of].

    Jer.11:10, “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant [which circumcision was a token of] which I made with their fathers…”

    GAL 6:13, “For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh…”

    COL 2:11, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Messiah…”

    ROM 2:25, “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision…”

    v.26, “Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?”

    v.27, “And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature,if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?”

    v.28, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly;neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: v.29, But ****HE IS A JEW****, which is one ****INWARDLY****; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    WELL, THAT’S THE WORD OF GOD!!!

    I choose like millions of others to believe the THE WORD!!!

    Verse 29 as PAUL so simply puts it, is vividly clear – “A TRUE JEW IS ONE WHOSE HEART IS RIGHT WITH CHRIST”!!!

    Seeing GOD* is the ONE* who reads the intents of the heart – it is FAIR* to assume that HE* is the only ONE* who really knows who is a JEW and who is NOT!!!

  73. THE NEW COVENANT WITH ISRAEL.

    A bit more from Professor Walvoord.

    “Among the Biblical covenats of the Old Testament, the new covenant with ISRAEL takes its place in importance with the Abrahamic and the Davidic covenants as determining the course and destiny of the Nation of Israel. In the study of premillennialism it is another important evidence for a future millennial kingdom in which its promises can find literal fulfillment.”

    The Promises of The New Covenant with Israel.

    “The promises of the new covenant with Israel are among the most specific of the Scriptures. The major passage is found in Jeremiah 31: 31-34:

    “Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT with the house of ISRAEL, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of ISRAEL after those days, saith Jehovah: i will put My law in their inward parts, and in their hearts will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall ALL know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their inquity, and their sin will I remember no more.” (Jer. 31:31-34).

    The Provisions of The New Covenant.

    According to Jeremiah 31: 31-34 previouslu quoted, at least seven (7) aspects are found contained in the new covenant with Israel.

    (1) It is specifically a covenant with “the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.” This was certainly understood by the Jews living in the Old Testament period as referring to Israel.

    (2) The new covenant is contrasted to the Mosaic covenant, which was made with Israel only.

    (3) The covenant promised fulfillment after the days of Israel’s trouble (Jer. 30:7) or the great tribulation which Christ predicted (Matt. 24: 21). It is further synchronized with the time of Israel’s regathering which is regarded as a preparation for fulfillment of the covenant (cf. Jer 31: 1-30) and constitutes the immediate context of the revelation of the new covenant.

    (4) The new covenant is designed to supplant and be superior to the Mosaic covenant in that it will be written “in their heart” instead of tables of stone.

    (5) The new covenant will bring in great spiritual blessing in that God and Israel will be publicly identified and Israel will be God’s people.

    (6) The new covenant will be fulfilled in a period of universal knowledge of the Lord in that it will not be necessary to instruct one’s neighbor concerning the Lord for “they shall all know me…” It is obviously the same time referred to by Isaiah when “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9). This is a strong contrast to the prevailing ignorance of the Lord in the present age and the contemporary failure of missionary effort to reach everyone even in Christian countries. Only a millennial kingdom in which Christ is visible and gloriously present could provide such context for the fulfillment of this covenant.

    (7) The new covenant involves forgiveness of sins, specifically the sins mentioned in the preceding context as having merited God’s judgment upon Israel. It is therefore a gracious covenant.

    “It should be obvious to every candid expositor of this passage, that only the premillennial interpretation provides possibility of a literal fulfillment of all these provisions. To ‘spiritualize’ the passage to the extent of making ISRAEL mean the CHURCH, and to restrict the passage to a ‘spiritualized’ fulfillment of the details of the covenant robs the covenant of its essential features, The facts are not only stated closely in Jeremiah 31 and intended to be taken literally, but similar passages elsewhere have the same features.”

    “Isaiah 61: 8-9 declares that the covenant is EVERLASTING and especially designed to reveal to ALL observers that God HAS blessed the SEED of Israel. the context is the same as in Jeremiah – the covenant WILL be FULFILLED following a period of trial and judgment, and preceded by the REGATHERING of Israel. Jeremiah repeats the same promises 32: 37-40 where again the EVERLASTING character of the covenant and its relation to Israel’s regathering are reiterated.”

    “|Ezekiel 37: 21-28 adds further confirmation: (1) Israel to be regathered; (2) Israel to be one nation, ruled by one King; (3) Israel no longer idolatrous, to be cleansed, forgiven; (4) Israel to dwell “FOREVER” in the land after regathering; (5) the covenant of peace with them to be everlasting; (6) God’s tabernacle to be with them, i.e., He will be present with them in a visible way; (7) Israel to be known among Gentiles as a nation blessed of God. All of these promises are implicit in the basis passage of Jeremiah, but they confirm, enrich, and enlarge the covenant.” (A Basic Text in Premillennial Theology, The Millennial Kingdom, pp. 208-212) emphasis added.

    One of the most dangerous methods of interpretation, IS the allegorizing, or spiritualizing of text, which the SDA et al have erroneously done, thus, leading Terence, who is not a theologian, nor, most certainly not aquainted with the proper principles of Biblical Hermeneutics, contextual analysis, and linguistic exegesis, without which, ALL of these heretical doctrines emanate.

  74. @Anonymous

    Your points are well taken…

    On your point of Jewery and its vertiginous absurdity as MOST FAVORED NATION STATUS – I ABSOLUTELY concur…

    Frankly after all the teeter-tottering, I want to lay down…

    LOL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  75. What is dangerous is – “THE MUDDIED STATE OF POSTMODERN BIBLICAL STUDIES”
    Robert L. Thomas, Evangelical Hermeneutics: The New Versus the Old (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 2002) 508.

    “We have surveyed how every person is doing right in his/her own eyes in the postmodern world of evangelical hermeneutics. In sampling recent criticisms of the Princeton scholars and nineteenth-century dispensationalism, we saw the postmodern blurring of the rationality and precision of Scripture. We then took a look at how the postmodern blur is generating a middle-ground mania among evangelicals. Next, we took two samples of how postmodernism has sought to obliterate propositional truth in the realm of Bible prophecy…”

    “In our postmodern culture, evangelicals may still call their hermeneutics by the familiar “grammatical-historical” terminology, they have endowed familiar expression with an entirely different meaning…”

  76. This is a great video presentation by Bill Moyers on FAITH & REASON -

    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/faithandreason/watch_rushdie.html

  77. TB,
    Most people on this planet don’t want to go where you will take them. They’re scared at what might be revealed about their innermost thoughts. People want, even possibly need to be spoon fed. Most of us have spent years, mastering miseducation, without diligent search for the facts. To unlearn some of the garbage taught in some, if not all of these major academic institutions, will take an entire lifetime. If one assumes that education is expensive, “Try being ignorant.” Ignorance conversely is knowing that something is wrong, and still maintaining its existence. How on earth can any world power, defend Israel’s right to exist, and promote the destruction of the palestinian people? More profound a question would be, how can we promote religion, to destroy, rape and pillage an entire region, when before 1948, the nation of Israel did not exist. There are those of us who cannot, will not, look truth in its eyes. To those people, I offer my sincere hope that you will set aside your bibles, and torahs, and think of humanity just for a minute. Don’t tell me about the people that Moses led from bondage, history shows that this nation of sojourners, called Israel, are not even remotely, historical linked to the lineage of the “Moses led Hebrews.” Any contributor to this blog, I dare you to disprove me, showing a clear historical analysis to my assertion. Any university professor, historian, bible toting christian, anyone, period. I am supremely confident, that I can crack holes in you beliefs, with historical evidence, more that you can disprove, that Israel is not a farce. These inhabitants of Israel, who call themselves jews, are nomads, former cave dwellers, who sojourned across the Euro-Asian steps in the last ice age, in order to find fertile lands, on which to exist. In fact, their religion was born out of the Metu Neter, and the pharaohnic experience. You, who have been led falsely by your bible toting european enslavers, need to understand, that it was Afri(k)a that offered this world monotheism, in the highest order. In order to understand this, permit me to point out you to (1) Sheik Anta Diop, (2)Chancellor Williams. Once you’ve read Diop’s and Williams’ articulate narrations of Afri(k)a, you cannot if you’re in your right minds, believe in the foolishness of our oppressors. History is important, depending on who tells it, if it’s told by those whose concept is to relegate our ancestral experience to nothingness, why would we even entertain their ideologies. Europeans always had plans wherever they’ve gone. Believe you me, nowhere where a european has set his feet, has ever been the same. Whether Barbados, Jamaica or Africa, the indigenous people will forever have borne the brunt of the european invader.

  78. @Terence, Man, you are not only in terrible spiritual ‘deception’ but, you are grossly intellectual dishonest, re Israel and Almighty God’s UNCONDITIONAL, IRREVOCABLE Covenant with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants, Jews, the Nation of Israel.

    Hear God’s Word, not the spurious writings on men.

    “NOW, the Lord said to Abram: get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house, To a LAND that I WILL show you. I WILL MAKE YOU A GREAT NATION. I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing, I will BLESS those who BLESS YOU, and I WILL CURSE him who curses you. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 12: 1-3) emphasis added.

    Terence, when you, or anyone else curses ‘Israel’ as you have so clearly done, by vehemently denying the absolute, UNCONDITIONAL, IRREVOCABLE Covenant that God established with them, YOU, are in effect, ‘Cursing’ Abraham, and his descendants, the Jewish people, the nation of Israel, and God has declared, ” I WILL BLESS those who bless you. And I WILL CURSE him who CURSES YOU.”

    Terence, you are treading on dangerous ground, be warned my friend!

    God’s plan from the beginning of redemptive history has been global. God’s work in Abraham’s life will be so evident throughout the Old Testament history, individuals, and nations who BLESSED Abraham’s descendants (Jews/Israelis) were blessed of God, those who persecuted them, God CUESED.

    The Biblical and historical evidence for this solemn, sovereign, unconditional and IRREVOCABLE Covenant, made and declared by Almighty God to Abraham and his descendants, (the Jews) from that moment in history (Gen. 12: 1-3), and to this day, no matter how much it is scoffed at, rediculed, mocked and called preposterous, can only be denied against the hard facts by those who are blatantly, Scripturally, historically and intellectually dishonest.

    In light of their (Jews) regathering to their ancient home land, after 2000 years of dispersion throughout the nations of the world, expressly foretold by God’s divinely inspired prophets in the Old Testament.

    The re-birth of the nation of Israel occurred in 1948, and IS one of the twin miracles of the 20th Century. That the Abrahamic Covenant IS *Unconditional* IS based on God’s declaration of FOUR direct and THREE *Irrevocable* ‘I WIIL’s’

    The first UNCONDITIONAL promise made by God to Abraham, was: “I WILL make you a GREAT NATION” (Gen 12:2). Implicit in this promise is a son (Isaac) through whom this NATION (Israel) would be created. Also, implicit IS the LAND promised (Canaan), since you CANNOT have a *Nation* without a LAND. God also promised very personal blessings to Abaham.

    Promises That Anticipated Anti-Semitism.

    Almighty God in His Omniscience KNEW the vile, sordid, ugly hated that would develop for the Jews, beginning way back in the patriarchal era, and therefore, in HIS, ‘I WILL’S’ clearly anticipated the Satanic malevolence that would be specifically directed at Abraham and his descendants, the Jews, through whom God’s mission of redemption to the world would come, and would logically, therefore, be singled OUT as prime targets by the father of ALL ‘LIES’ and evil, the Devil. That Anti-Semitism has been a relentless facts of history, simply cannot be denied.

    Therefore, God, in His Covenantal declaration with Abraham, said: “I WILL bless those who bless you, And I WILL curse him who curses you…(v.3a) Abraham and his divinely chosen line of descendants through Isaac and Jacob, have been consistently persecuted. There is a mystical quality behind the intesity of the HATRED toward the Israelites.

    The Jews have been singledf out for special hated since they were driven into global exile after the destruction of Israel in 70 A.D. The name ‘Jew’ has come to be indiscriminately applied to the survivors of all twelve tribes of Israelites in recent centuries.

    None of this diabolical, inhuma hatred, can be understood nor grasped, unless and until one understands the ‘one’ who the Word of God calls, ‘the god of this age’, none other than Satan himself, who is behind the annihilation of the Jews, and their God given State, Israel. Any objective study of the irrational outbreaks of hatred all over the world toward the Israelites; their mindless slaughter in every country, will reveal that there IS a malevolent spiritual force behind it all.

    The re-birth of the Nation/state of Israel on May 14th, 1948, is the apex of the fulfillment and final consummation of biblical prophecy, that will usher in the Second Advent of the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lord, Jesus Christ.

    .

  79. Georgie Porgie

    Before I continue to share my essay on the Abrahamic Covenant

    In answer to the question is the Abrahamic Covenant unconditional read Hebrews 6: 13 et secq . This passage is a commentary on Genesis 15 relates the Abrahamic covenant to believers through Christ

    13. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14. Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

    15. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

    16. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

    17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
    18. That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

    19. Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20. Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    Who is our HOPE?
    WHO IS THE ANCHOR OF THE SOUL?
    WHO ENTERED THE VEIL?
    WHO IS THE FORERUNNER?
    WHO IS THE HIGH PRIEST AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHISIDEK?

    Anyone who can read on reading all the covenants you will find that in all except the Abrahamic covenant, they were things for both parties in the covenant to uphold. In other words they were conditions//At Sinai there were all the rules of the law to be kept.

    Both Genesis 15 and Hebrews 6 indicate that in the Abrahamic covenant God swore to himself. He made the promise to him self with him self.

    \
    I aint got no PhD nor do I meet with any professors from here or there or up in the air or in the UK, but I can read. You all decide. LOL.

  80. Georgie Porgie

    What we are discussing here is what the Bible teaches.

    We are not talking about what Israel has or is doing. It is clear that for most of their existence that Israel has rebelled and rejected God- except for a remnant. There has always been a faithfiul remnant, throughout the ages. There is a gaithful remnant now, and there will be a faithful remnant in the millenium.

    It is ONLY in the millennium that Jews will accept Christ as they should. They rejected him in “Holy Week” when he offered himself as king in accordance to Zechariah’s prediction.

    For that they have been scattered for a second time as predicted by Moses in Exodus.

    Today Israel are in the state predicted by Hosea in Hosea 3: 4. For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

    BUT NOTE
    5. Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

    In other wards in the Millenium.

    When this prophesy was given there was NO church. If verse 4 refers to Jews then so does verse 5. Only someone who is brainwashed or illogical or incoherent cant see this. LOL

    The bar raiser would have as believe that the condition of being a Jew is circumcision. Hey folk (Gentiles) were practicing circumcision before Abraham believed God, and they have been practicing it since. Ah lie? Circumcision does not make any one a Jew ijnwardly as clearly taught in Romans.

    I aint no scholar I never raise any bars anywhere. Nor am I talented. But I have a grasp of the Word.

  81. Georgie Porgie

    Re
    What is dangerous is – “THE MUDDIED STATE OF POSTMODERN BIBLICAL STUDIES”
    Robert L. Thomas, Evangelical Hermeneutics: The New Versus the Old (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 2002) 508.

    “We have surveyed how every person is doing right in his/her own eyes in the postmodern world of evangelical hermeneutics. In sampling recent criticisms of the Princeton scholars and nineteenth-century dispensationalism, we saw the postmodern blurring of the rationality and precision of Scripture. We then took a look at how the postmodern blur is generating a middle-ground mania among evangelicals. Next, we took two samples of how postmodernism has sought to obliterate propositional truth in the realm of Bible prophecy…”

    “In our postmodern culture, evangelicals may still call their hermeneutics by the familiar “grammatical-historical” terminology, they have endowed familiar expression with an entirely different meaning…”
    ====================================

    Huh? What has this to do with the price of cheese , oh raiser of the bar Sir?

    Whoi is talking about “the postmodern world of evangelical hermeneutics, Sir? We talking about the ancient Scriptures man We talking about “what does the Bible really says about the sons of Abraham.” Sir
    .

    Sir bar raiser Sir? We are not discussing any ” sampling (of) recent criticisms of the Princeton scholars and nineteenth-century dispensationalism,” nor are we looking at “the postmodern blurring of the rationality and precision of Scripture.”

    We are discussing rightly dividing the Word of Truth about what does “the Bible really says about the sons of Abraham.”

    MR Teacher Sir. You dont seem to be able to acurately respond to my posts, but I will respond to what ever you say Sir. We need to “raise the bar” Sir in this discussion, man.

    I quote you again Sir bar raiser.

    We then took a look at how the postmodern blur is generating a middle-ground mania among evangelicals.

    AS YOU CAN SEE THERE IS NO BLUR IN OUR MINDS ABOUT WHAT THE TEXT SAYS OR WHAT IT MEANS nor is there any mania here Sir. In a test match youexpect to face probing fast bowlers.

    I am not a postmodernism Sir Bar raiser Sir
    and I am not seeking to bliterate propositional truth in the realm of Bible prophecy…” I READ THE TEXT THEN I TRY TO ASCERTAIN WHAT THE TEXT SAYS
    THEN I TRY TO FIND OUT WHAT THE TEXT MEANS as tyaught in the ancient book of Nehemiah Chapter 8 verse 8 thus

    8. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

    THEY READ
    THEY GAVE THE SENSE
    THEY UNDERSTOOD THE READING

    That is PREmodernist Sir. In fact very ancient Sir. Ah lie

    “In our postmodern culture, evangelicals may still call their hermeneutics by the familiar “grammatical-historical” terminology, they have endowed familiar expression with an entirely different meaning…”

    Sir Bar Raiser Sir iin this last quote YOU ARE SPEAKING OF YOUR SELF AND DONT EVEN REALIZE IT LOL

    In our postmodern culture, evangelicals may still call their hermeneutics by the familiar “grammatical-historical” terminology, they have endowed familiar expression with an entirely different meaning…”

    Ah lie?
    Ah gone ya hear…………for now.

    and stop trying to play to the gallery man. YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED!

  82. @ Anonymous

    “Most people on this planet don’t want to go where you will take them…”

    TO BE FRANK BRUV* – I REALLY DO NOT* CARE TOO MUCH TO TAKE ANYONE, ANYWHERE THEY DON’T WANT TO GO!!!

    This is a DEMOCRACY (whatever that means) –

    Unlike the dictatorial theocratic musings being pushed down our throats by some who claim to represent the copyrighted patent on God!!!

    Joshua said “AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE”…

    AND THAT’S MY FEELING EXACTLY!!!

    For those who have made the most impact in the life are usually the ONES* who get ridiculed, railed on, abused, censured, maligned, ostracized, demonized and ultimately persecuted for righteousness sake – in the case of those who possess the GIFT* of prophecy – they pay the price of MARTYRDOM!!!

    This has been case with every prophet, seer, sage or holy man down through time…

    “Ole’ pirates…”

    In recent modern history, we were given MARTIN* and they murdered him for “resisting the system”…

    And so it is, what it is my beloved brother!!!

  83. @ ZOE

    Again my dear brother what is truly dangerous is your warnings of “DANGER”…

    Yea though I walk through the valley – I have NEVER* feared NOTHING!!!

    I fear (LOVE BORNE OUT OF AWE) God… PERIOD!!!

    The rest is mere semantics!!!

    I have never danced to the beat of anyone’s drum and I am too old, too wise and have too many experiences under my belt to start reinventing the wheel NOW…

    I appreciate your rite* to share what you believe – but regrettably I AM UNCONVINCED!!!

    I tell you what I tell my Ashkenazi brethren – GOD IS NO RESPECTOR OF ANY PERSON!!!

    If you guys have another slant on things – GOOD LUCK TO YA’…

    As the saying goes, “HAVE A NICE DAY!!!”

    You defend your epistemology…

    I stand my ground!!!

    I think that’s pretty simple… pretty uncomplicated don’t you think?

  84. What covenant! Blasted politics money and greed is the driving force behind the War in the middleeast and for sure God has no part of that for God is the author of PEACE ! LOVE ! and unity .
    Today the United States saying they are giving the Palestinians $400hundred million dollars in relief aid.
    Now what the hell is that to do with bible prophecy. The american Jews only care about Profitecy. However they will endorse The christian interpretation of God’s promise to them as far as having the land , They know that force and change come in numbers . But don’t tell them about Jesus . How hypocritical.!

    @Tmb

    Preach on brother. Those who have ears to hear let them HEAR!
    The egomaniacs have lost control of this thread and now they bare on the attack.
    First SDA. now palgairism. What would they think of next! Iam listening.

  85. @TMB: “This is a DEMOCRACY (whatever that means)

    I assume you have realized that Democracy can be used to confuse, constrain and inhibit.

    I assume you have read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

    …particularly the last section: “Popular rule as a facade

    IMHO, Democracy is being touted as an “touch stone” without it having been demonstratively proven to solve all problems.

    Just because “the people” choose “their leaders” every few years, does this ensure that “the people’s” issues will be managed appropriately?

  86. Accuse me of being a MODERATE* but ya’ gotta’ LOVE Bill Moyers…

  87. @ ac

    Cheers matey!!!

    You’d think there is a PAYCHECK* involved in all this!!!

    I guess “TALK” ain’t that cheap after all…

    Oh well, ask OPRAH***

    LOL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  88. Revelation all right! For God shall revealed those things he wants us to know .Thank God for the internet. For those who were blind can surely see .Gone are the days when only those with so called superiour intelligence told us how to think.

  89. @ CH

    “I assume you have realized that Democracy can be used to confuse, constrain and inhibit…”

    ABSOLUTELY…

    Let’s call it the tyranny of democratic freedoms…

    OFF MESSAGE FOR A MO’ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    How was the show down at HIGH NOON with the self-acclaimed “DOC HOLIDAY” at the Garrison Sav???

    Did Jack “the twinkle-toes” Bowman show or was it a wind-up?

    I really get a good laugh off you guys…

    Pure stand up!!!

    Ya’ gotta’ love Barbados Underground (so aptly titled)…

    David probably sits in the wings having a real good belly laugh himself!!!

  90. @TMB

    PAYBACK ! maybe

  91. @TMB: “Did Jack “the twinkle-toes” Bowman show or was it a wind-up?

    No, he didn’t show up, even though I was there with witnesses.

    But then it was raining hard, and it has been claimed that Bajans melt in the rain…

    Keep doing what you’re doing. I’ll keep doing what I’m doing…

    …and, perhaps, someday, we Humans will reach a state of stability.

  92. @ ac

    “Gone are the days when only those with so called superior intelligence told us how to think…”

    There is (permit me to use the “word” seeing that it has been swash-buckled about all day long) a “DANGER” within the so-called intelligentsia in Barbados who believe that liberty of conscience is an arcane virtue…

    The concept of “THEIR” way or the “HIGHWAY” stifles growth, creativity and mental expansion amongst a people who have been blessed with superior abilities – but there is a “CHORUS” of voices who seem hellbent on muzzling popular opinion, debate, discourse or the “right” to free emotional or spiritual expression…

    This “AC” is DANGEROUS* stuff!!!

    It is endemic within our politics, our religion and etched within the socioeconomic fabric of BAJAN society…

    My greatest fear (and I am not the son of a prophet) but I believe this holds serious connotations for our small 166 sq. mile plot of land out in the Caribbean Sea…

    If certain demagogues are allowed to have their own way – we will see a rehash of the “dark ages” which Europe experienced for 1260 years (538AD to 1798) where the POPES & PRIESTS told us we were too ignorant to understand the Scriptures and that we were basically “SCUM” while they were “THE CHOSEN & THE BELOVED” of God…

    We have to shun those folks like the Bubonic plague – they are terminally infectious and a danger to themselves and to the “hive”…

  93. @ CHRIS

    “But then it was raining hard, and it has been claimed that Bajans melt in the rain…”

    Man, I can’t stop laughing…

    I am about to piss myself!!!

    This is good stuff!!

    Jack (“BE NIMBLE, JACK BE QUICK, JACK JUMP OVER THE CANDLE STICK”) Bowman was a NO-SHOW for the “gun-fight” of his life…

    Go figure…. Unbelievable!!!

    Well Chris, forgive my crass allusory grasp of the “FRENCH” language – but it seems you have the “biggest” balls on the block…

    You really can’t script this stuff!!!

  94. @TMB
    Not to mention those with “Closedminds”. There are the ones the Bible talk about as being self righteous. Don’t confuse them with the facts.Their is no Highway with t
    hem, ONEWAY only.
    However please don’t let me detour you. Continue with your teaching.

  95. @TMB: “Man, I can’t stop laughing…

    Please stop laughing…

    I left my home and my family today not knowing if I would be alive three hours later.

    My girlfriend, my mother and two friends pleaded with me not to do this.

    I argued that my life was worth a point. As has been argued and demonstrated before.

    Let us, *PLEASE*, make the most of this….

  96. Georgie Porgie

    Mr Blackett

    Re I have never danced to the beat of anyone’s drum and I am too old, too wise and have too many experiences under my belt to start reinventing the wheel NOW…
    I appreciate your rite* to share what you believe – but regrettably I AM UNCONVINCED!!!

    May we say the same too Sir?

    Yes I will defend not any epistemology… but what the Bible teaches
    You stand your ground and so do we. But in your exegesis you are confusing and contradicting yourself. I think that’s pretty simple… pretty uncomplicated don’t you think?

    Re “Gone are the days when only those with so called superior intelligence told us how to think…”

    That’s exactly correct. TMB the Bar raiser came, chose a text started a discussion on a topic using an article which HE HIMSELF CONFESSED THAT HE PLAGIARISED, but he has been unable to defend his thesis. He continues to waffle, divert attention away from the fact that he can not defend his position. Any discussion of the sons of Abraham from the Bible must of necessity involve the Abrahamic covenant, which will come to full fruition in the Millennial kingdom , as most of the unfulfilled prophesies of the Scriptures will attest. must

    This is not about the “The concept of “THEIR” way or the “HIGHWAY” stifles growth, creativity and mental expansion amongst a people who have been blessed with superior abilities – “ This is about presenting ANOTHER VIEW IF YOU PLEASE. You came expecting to get your way and say what you like to quote the BU crowd “unchallenged?

    Re but there is a “CHORUS” of voices who seem hellbent on muzzling popular opinion, debate, discourse or the “right” to free emotional or spiritual expression This “AC” is DANGEROUS* stuff!!!”

    We are discussing what the Bible teaches Sir. Not muzzling popular opinion. Howmany Bajans know or care about the Abrahamic covenant. You came with your stolen or copied article BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION.

    NO one is “muzzling debate, discourse or the “right” to free emotional or spiritual expression, Sir Bar Raiser. We are engaging in “debate, discourse or the “right” to free emotional or spiritual expression debate.” And you do not like it! You have your PhD and we have our doctorates in Theology.

    You are again playing to the gallery when you wriote “ If certain demagogues are allowed to have their own way – we will see a rehash of the “dark ages” which Europe experienced for 1260 years (538AD to 1798) where the POPES & PRIESTS told us we were too ignorant to understand the Scriptures and that we were basically “SCUM” while they were “THE CHOSEN & THE BELOVED” of God…
    We have to shun those folks like the Bubonic plague – they are terminally infectious and a danger to themselves and to the “hive”…”

    If we are dangerous show from the Scriptures that we are incorrect. Isnt that fair?

    Both Zoe and I who might be scum on BU have supported our position by scripture, as ought to be done in a fair “debate or discourse” where folk have the “right” to free emotional or spiritual expression debate.” Ah lie? You think you dealing with illiterate morons!

    You seem to be the one seeking your own way here on BU with your SELF CONFESSED plagiarized article. Ah lie?

  97. Georgie Porgie

    Let us now examine the Abrahamic Covenant again and see exactly in what way what was promised in that covenant and how those promises relate to the Nation
    of Israel and believers today.

    Genesis 12:1-3 records the first promise to
    Abraham.

    Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be
    blessed. Gen 12:1-3

    God initiated and imposed a covenant. Gen. 12:1-3
    Abraham represented himself and his descendants. Gen. 12:2; 17:7-8

    God and Abraham pledged loyalty. Gen. 15:1, 6
    God would protect Abraham in all circumstances. (Gen. 12:3, 17; 14:14-16, 18-20; chapter 20

    God initiated blood sacrifice and the sign of circumcision (cutting of the representative’s flesh). (Gen. 15:8-21; 17:9-14)

    God ate a covenant meal with Abraham. Gen. 18:8
    Abram had his name changed to Abraham, and God was known as the “God of Abraham.” (Gen. 17:4, 5; 32:9)

    The specific things in this text that are of major importance in our study are the promises concerning a “great nation,” the “land,” and “in thee shall all of
    the families of the earth be blessed.” We have already established that the last thing mentioned is the gospel promise of Christ Himself. \

    This particular promise cannot possibly refer to physical Israel except as she is the vehicle
    through which the Messiah is brought into the world.

    What is most important to note about this first meeting of God and Abraham, is that God has kept the three-fold promise which he made to Abraham at this time;
    giving us today every reason to believe that He will keep all of the promises He has since made and those that pertain to us today.

    God promised that he would make Abraham’s name great and bless him; and he did so.

    God promised that he would make him a blessing to all mankind; and he did so by establishing the
    nation of Israel, who as a people have endured longer than any other nation on earth today.

    The giving to the world the Bible through them has been a blessing to all who have read only a few pages with the right spirit. We know that in some parts, the Bible is so much a blessing that the few available are cut into portions that are distributed and thus loaned so that all could get a chance to benefit therefrom.

    The untold blessings of the Word of God by educating man about the grace of God which has appeared unto men cannot be properly or accurately reported.

    In addition God has allowed Israel to enter the promised land on three separate occasions. The fact that they could not retain it on two previous occasions, and that even now they are struggling to do so is a function of their disobedience, rather than God’s inability to keep this promise.

    We know that one day He will himself make good this promise by His personal appearance and rule. The plan of God in this first meeting of God and Abraham is clearly seen.

    I will be back. Those who want to know what the Abrahamic covenant is a bout can learn

    But in a discussion about what the Bible says about the Sons of Abraham it is relevant.

  98. @CH / TMB,

    You guys have eased my mind, as just after noon, apparently there were both a Police car and an ambulance racing in the general vicinity of the garrison, to my horror.

    I wondered at that point if indeed these pages would be used in court.

    Thankfully, obviously the goodly Mr.Bowman’s balls fuel his mouth or words rather than his actions.

    Then again, CH is rather recknless to meet a total stranger at high noon.

    That said, CH I hope you had someone scouring the outskirts, I wonder if Bowman was indeed watching to see if you turned up?

  99. @Crusoe: “That said, CH I hope you had someone scouring the outskirts

    Let’s just say I was comfortable in the situation.

  100. THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT.

    The Abrahamic Covenant is the Covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, It was made after the tower of Babel and the scattering of the descendants of noah. It involves National Israel, the Seed Messiah, and all believers of all nations. It IS the most COMPREHENSIVE of all the Old Testament Covenants.

    When God made promises and CONFIRMED them with an OATH, He bound Himself to their FULFILLMENT, making the covenant *IRREVOCABLE*. Such is seen in the Noahic Covenant (Isaiah 54: 9), the Abrahamic Covenant (Hebrews 6: 16-17), and the Davidic Covenant (Psalms 89:3, 35; 132: 11), which consummates inh the New Covenant with Christ after the order of Melchisedek (Acts 2:30; Psalms 110; Hebrews 7: 20,21,23). God’s OATH to His PROMISES is a confirmation and an end of all strife and unbelief on the part of man.

    What is the Relationship of the Mosaic Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant?

    In the early Church there was much confusion concerning the relationship of three great covenants: the Abrahamic, the Mosaic and the New Covenants. Paul gave the solution by pinpointing the relationship of the Mosaic Covenant to the Abrahamic Covenant. The five parts to this answer that are given in the Epistle are listed below:

    a. The Mosaic Covenant did NOT annul NOR replace the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant had been made IRREVOCABLE by its PROMISES being CONFIRMED with an *OATH* (Galatians 3: 8,9,14-18; Hebrews 6: 13-20),

    b. The mosaic Covenant was *added( to or “placed alongside” the Abrahamic Covenant, because of Israel’s transgressions (Galatians 3:19).

    c. The Mosaic Covenant once instituted was to ‘run parallel’ or co-exist with the Abrahamic Covenant. For this reason the prophets spoke of the covenants co-existing in their day (Galatians 3: 15-19; Ezekiel 16: 59-63). The Mosaic Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant both flow into the Cross; their ceremonial elements being fulfilled and ABOLISHED and their spiritual and eternal elements being fulfilled in the New Covenant.

    d. The Mosaic Covenant was imposed or “laid upon” Israel to prefigure the Person and work of christ (Hebrews 9:9,10).

    e. The Mosaic Covenant was ‘temporal’, given UNTIL Christ the SEED of Abraham would come and UNTIL the time of reformation which would be brought about by the New Covenant (Galatians 3:19; Heb. 9:10).

    NOTE: The Abrahamic Covenant, which was EVERLASTING and *IRREVOCABLE* was NOT annulled by the Mosaic Covenant, which WAS temporally imposed upon Israel UNTIL the time when the New Covenant would fulfil the Abrahamic Covenant, and abolish the Mosaic Covenant. Thus, the Abrahamic Covenant was the transcending, ETERNAL Covenant, while the Mosaic Covenant was the temporary additional Covenant. (The Covenants, pp. 14, 27, 43,) emphasis added.

  101. Georgie Porgie

    So far we have an idea of what the Abrahamic Covenant is and that God has been faithful in keeping the covenant as he promised. Now we must show how the Abrahamic Covenant relates to the Christian. Now we must show what the Scripture says about this relationship.

    The Abrahamic Covenant constantly refers to “the land” and Abraham’s “descendants.” The term
    for “descendants” may also be translated “seed.” Who,
    are the descendants of Abraham?

    All of the Semitic peoples are certainly included in this term, including the Arabs. However, the covenant refers to a specific group; for God is very selective.

    Isaac had two sons: Esau and Jacob, Jacob was the bearer of the promise. Jacob emerged into twelve tribes. However, only Judah of those tribes was the specific bearer of the covenant promise. The promise came through Judah, and His name shall be Shiloh, which means the “worthy one.”

    So within Israel there comes to be “a remnant.” Although there is, of course, the collective Israel, those who descended from Abraham; there are also those who are “like Abraham.” This group consists of those who have “faith” in God and the promise.

    The remnant are those who are the true Israel, those who have faith— a faith, and a heart that comes from God; and true Israel also has the blood of Abraham in their veins. Some believe that true Christians are that
    portion of the remnant which qualify to be ” true Israel “, because we have the same type or quality of faith as did Abraham. But what does the Bible say to
    support this belief?

    Matthew 3:9 reads, “And do not think you can say to yourselves, We have Abraham as our father. I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children
    for Abraham.” In this incident, John the Baptist told the collective Israel that they were not true Israel. In other words, John the Baptist said prove that you are the children of Abraham — do the works of Abraham, i.e., have faith.

    Next in John 8:33ff. we read that the Jews in response to a statement by Jesus about liberty , “They answered him, We are Abrahams descendants and have never
    been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free? Jesus replied, I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin… If you were Abraham’s children, said Jesus, then you would do the things Abraham did… ( but) You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your fathers desire.”

    Jesus here makes it very clear that although that these Jews are Israelites, they are the descendants of Abraham, but they are not really true Israel, even though the blood of Abraham flows in their veins. So a very
    fine distinction is being made. This is clear to see.

    Then in Luke 19:9, our Lord made the following statement to Zacchaeus “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” Thus, Christ said that Zacchaeus heart was like Abrahams: a lifestyle of love and of salvation, and faith. He could not mean anything else, since everyone
    knows that Zacchaeus was a Jew, and thus naturally a son of Abraham by birth.

    Jesus must then be speaking of sonship aquired by a process other than natural birth.

    Paul, in Romans 2:28, said, “A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one
    inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.” Paul
    said, then, that a real Jew is one by faith like Abraham.

    Galatians. 3:6ff. states,”Consider Abraham: He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.” A son of Abraham, then, has nothing to do with the blood in ones veins, but everything to do with what is in the heart.

    In Galatians . 3:26,29 Paul is speaking to Jews and Gentiles and says : “You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

    Who,then, is a descendant of Abraham? Anyone who believes in Christ. Thus, anyone who believes in Christ is an heir of the promise that God made to Abraham. Paul is insisting, then, that the covenant is for both Jew and Gentile. Now we begin to see from the Bible the “Relationship of the Abrahamic Covenant to the
    Christian.”

    Galatians. 3:16,17 also provides the answer to Galatians. 3:6ff. states,”Consider Abraham: He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.” A son of Abraham, then, has nothing to do with the blood in ones veins, but everything to do with what is in the heart.

    Galatians. 3:16,17 also provides the answer to the question Who is the seed or the descendants of Abraham? “The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say and to seeds, meaning many people, but and to your seed, meaning one person, who is Christ.” Christ is the seed.

    And all those in Him become the descendants of Abraham. This means clearly then , that ALL those believers in Christ, all those who are in Christ are
    related directly back to Abraham, and are true Israel or Abraham’s offspring. Not by blood, but by faith. This means in effect, that we are included on every page of the Bible where there is a promise that refers to
    this aspect of the Abrahamic covenant. Again, not by blood, but by faith.

    We established at the very beginning of this essay that Abrahams covenant relationship was by his faith in God. Similarly , Christians – that is , all those in Christ are blessed. And the word blessed here means
    “empowered, and successful” in body, mind, spirit and thought. Thus, when the Church Age believer is filled with the Spirit, this believer is blessed or empowered with success in every way. For “through you (Abraham) all nations of the world will be blessed.” (Gen. 12:3).

    Galatians. 3:13 states plainly, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is
    hung on a tree. He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might
    receive the promise of the Spirit.” So when we received the Holy Spirit we also received the promise that God promised to Abraham in Genesis 12. When
    we believe in Christ, we are heirs of the promise.

    Thus, we also may be “like Abraham” and walk with God, and express and receive agape love. So if
    we are in Christ, then we are in the real family of God, a descendant of Abraham– not by blood, but by faith.

    Clearly then in any discussion entitled “What Does The Bible Really Say About The Sons of Abraham” the Abrahamic is very relevant.

    Now note in my discourse my emphasis has been what will happen to Israel after the second phase of the second coming of Christ, i.e the Millennium when Christ will reign for 1000 years, as is clearly taught in the Psalms, and the prophetic scriptures.

  102. Georgie Porgie

    The Importance of Romans 9-11 iIn this disccussion

    Romans 9:6,7 is a key passage that will help us see that the physical Nation of Israel, despite all of its unique privileges and promises, was indeed a special nation, but, none the less, they were not a spiritual nation.

    There were spiritual individuals, but the nation by and large was unregenerate. As a nation, they were a “special natural” seed of Abraham even though lost or
    unsaved. They were special and different from all of the other physical seeds of Abraham, but they were just as non-special and non-different when compared with Abraham’s spiritual seed.

    It is this fact that Paul drives home so emphatically in Romans, chapter nine in the following key text:

    Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. Rom 9:6,7

    We have already seen above that regardless of what promises were made to “Israel” in the Old Covenant, we must learn how to apply the principle “not
    all Israel is Israel” to all of God’s dealings with the nation made up of Jacob’s twelve sons. All of Abraham’s seed are not considered his
    “children,” or true seed that inherits the promise. This is just as true in the NT Scriptures as in the OT Scriptures. This is seen from a carefully
    look at Paul’s argument in Romans .

    Romans 9-11 deals with this question in the light of God’s eternal purposes as seen in the OT Scriptures and in history. Paul shows that God was not in
    any sense unfaithful to His covenant promises. God never has, nor ever will,fail to keep every covenant He has made.

    “However,” Paul declares, “God has never promised any spiritual blessing to anyone on the basis of fleshly
    birth.” This is the heart of the whole issue! Paul’s words apply to every Jewish child born into the Nation of Israel, and his words also apply to every child born of Christian parents today. This principle must be grasped
    and then consistently applied, as we read through the Bible.

    Every single promise of God that brings a spiritual blessing to any individual requires that individual to personally believe the promise. Israel never inherited
    the promised blessing because they “sought it not in faith” (Romans 9:32). In other words, they rejected the gospel message that Abraham, their forefather, had savingly believed.

    The heart of Romans 9-11 declares the absolute necessity of personal faith in order to receive any promised blessing from God. This is always true in
    every dispensation and under every covenant; and it is true for every person whether he is a Jew or Gentile; whether he was born of believing parents or
    unbelieving parents.

    Abraham’s true seed are all, without a single
    exception, born-again believers! We must not speak of anyone being an heir to any spiritual promise made to “Abraham and his seed” unless we see repentance and faith in that person.

    Here it is very clear that Paul is saying that “not all Israel is Israel”.This simply means the difference between people with special privileges and
    people that actually possess grace. Every Israelite enjoyed great privileges because of his physical birth (Rom 3:1-3), but no Israelite (or anyone else) ever possessed any special spiritual status or received any
    spiritual blessings apart from personal repentance and faith.

    God never promised an Israelite a single spiritual blessing just because he was an Israelite. Physical birth never put them, or anyone else, in a special or
    separate spiritual category before God. Israel definitely was in a separate physical category as God’s “chosen nation,” and she had special spiritual
    opportunities, but she was NOT in a special spiritual position before God.

    God did not deny His promise or fail to keep His covenant when He cast off the Jewish nation. He did not break or dishonor His “special covenant”
    relationship with Israel simply because that covenant and relationship were purely conditional and Israel never met the terms.

    Paul then gives a concrete illustration of exactly what he means. His real point in the illustration is that the “Israel within Israel” is a matter of sovereign election (Rom 9:11) and effectual calling (Rom 9:24),
    and has nothing at all to do with physical lineage. We must see this factclearly and hold on to it tightly! It is a Biblical key that unlocks many passages of Scripture.

    It is also very important to note that Paul does not
    demonstrate and prove the doctrine of election by comparing a seed of Abraham and Gentile, but he compares two Jewish children. And they are not
    just two ordinary Jewish children; they are the twin grandsons of Abraham himself as well as the true sons of believing Isaac.

    If ever there were two blue-blooded Jewish children,” they would be the twin grandsons of the man to whom the covenant was given in the first place. Paul uses Abraham’s twin grandsons in his illustration in order to demonstrate beyond any question that inheriting God’s true promises has nothing to do with being a Jew , nor
    with being “signed and sealed” with covenant signs – even the God-ordained covenant sign of circumcision which was placed on Abraham, his son Issac,
    and his twin grandsons.

    “And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac, (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any
    good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall
    serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob [the younger "covenant child"] have I loved, but Esau [the older "covenant child"] have I hated or prefered. Rom
    9:10-13.”

    In this illustration, Paul is telling us exactly what he means by “not all Israel is Israel.” Nothing that God ever promised or covenanted to the Nation of Israel guaranteed, in any sense whatever, that they, or their
    children, would receive spiritual blessings. They had privileges, but they did not have the certainty of the blessings. They had spiritual opportunities, but they were not by birth in a special spiritual category.

    Esau had every single privilege that Jacob had. In fact, he had more (He was the oldest son and had the birthright), but Esau was not part of the “seed
    of Abraham to whom the promises were made” even though he was a true “physical child of Abraham.” Esau received “the sign of the covenant” but he was not a true “covenant child.” God did not “establish his covenant” with Esau, even though the covenant promise was confirmed to both his believing
    father (Isaac) and his believing grandfather Abraham).

    If Esau is really a “covenant child” in any sense whatever, then Scripture clearly teaches
    that God hates some covenant children (Rom 9:13)!

    We must really grasp Paul’s basic argument in Romans 9-11, in these chapters, Paul is illustrating the basic principle that runs through all of Scripture, namely, that God’s grace is totally unconditional, and nothing, including all of the privileges listed in Romans 9:4,5, guarantees any individual a spiritual blessing.

    A Jew could not plead, on the basis of his physical birth and circumcision, any more from God than Esau could plead on the ground of his birth and circumcision. No priest or prophet could guarantee a Jewish parent that God had promised, in the covenant of circumcision, any more to him or his child than had been promised to Isaac as a believing father, or to Esau his circumcised son.

    If ever a believing parent could claim that both of his children were part of “Abraham’s seed” and “under the covenant,” it was Abraham’s own son, Isaac!

    What then is the point of Paul’s argument in Romans with respect to the relationship of the Abrahamic Covenant to the Christian? It is that in Romans, Paul demonstrates that the promises of the Abrahamic covenant do not apply to the Jews because of their birth or lineage.

    Paul is stating that only Jews who exhibited faith and obedience in God’s promises will benefit therefrom. One may conclude that perhaps others who are not Jews who exhibit faith and obedience in God’s promises will benefit therefrom. Since Romans
    9-11 deals only with the Jews, all that this argument from Romans contributes to this discussion is that the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant are not exclusively Jewish, and reinforces the principles upon
    which God grants the benefits of this promise.

    Certainly an understanding of the Dispensational chapters of Romans is verey relevant to a discussion of ” What Does the Bible Really Say About The Sons of Abraham.”

  103. @Georgie Porgie // June 9, 2010 at 10:45 AM

    “Mary was also descended from David via another line . David had several sons eh?”

    you still have not shown me that Mary was of royal lineage. i stated that God recognized the importance of stepfathers because Mathew 1:16 states “and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.”

    Jesus’ royalty and priesthood came from both stepfather and his heavenly father. God chose Mary as His earthly vessel to encapsulate the conception of this 100% human, 100% God. This union of Joseph and Mary was God’s way of showing humanity that the process of adoption of a child, is that child, being as your own flesh and blood. we are taught the we (Christians) have been adopted into God’s kingdom, and he becomes our father when accept Jesus as our Lord and saviour. i view the marriage of Mary and Joseph as symbolic of God’s willingness to adopt us as his own. it does not take away from Christ’ royalty or his priesthood, infact it enhances it. we are mere humans, subject to weaknesses at some point in time yet God has provided a way that we too could become ‘little Gods’ because we someday would be like him according to the bible. this is so because we too have become a royal priesthood born out of sin. your understanding might be different but i understand it this way and hope i have not offend you further

  104. GP!! Give de man a break, he didn’t actually say he “raised the bar”, that phrase was thrust around his neck like a millstone by BT so TMB gotta defend his “elevated status” but so far (and I can’t claim to know much about the topic) the bar seems to have fallen on him.

    Did TMB actually admit to plagiarizing some content for his article? Didn’t TMB also profess to be a published author among other things? Or is that more self aggrandizing from TMB? Seem to me that any author who admits to plagiarism is like a man sitting on the far edge of a branch busily sawing off the end attached to the tree.

    What’s that saying again…. “Give a man enough rope…..”

  105. The BU Ode

    I climbed Bush Hill in deep despair,
    With heavy heart and clothed in fear.
    Jack Bowman of the misplaced verb,
    Had promised he “will” be heard.

    The broad savannah loomed ahead,
    And in the distance, I did espy,
    Chris Halsall with a steady gaze,
    Walk yo walk, talk yo talk; unfazed.

    And then silence!
    No show Jack Bowman, of the verb,
    Had lost his nerve.
    Because his quiver was “empty”.

  106. One “man” BAD* decision 4000 years has resulted in ramifications which affect the whole world down into the 21st century…

    ABRAHAM* messed up big time in not being OBEDIENT* to God (given the future prophecy given him and his family) – but rather chose to listen to the voice of his wife (a mistake most of us men make as we try to please our other half). PRETTY STUPID ain’t it?

    This age-old DISOBEDIENCE* has brought about war, murder, sibling rivalry, posturing and stand-offs – polarizing the world along ethnic and ideological lines…

    It is the light of the 28th chapter of Deuteronomy (known amongst Jews as the Tokhahah) is a prophecy of a series of wonderful blessings and ominous punishments and curses that was visited upon the Israelite nation because they BLATANTLY* forsook GOD’s LAW*- the Torah (before they had even entered the promised land of Canaan – most of the generation which left Egypt, dying in the wilderness but did even worst as a new generation entered a new land).

    In the days of Moses, [6] of the [12] tribes would stand at the base of Mount EBAL (the mount of cursings) and the other [6] would stand at the base of Mount Gerizim (the mount of blessings) as the LAW* was read. At the end of the reading of each set of blessings or cursings – AMEN resounded!!!

    Many Jews and Christians today hardly place any serious emphasis on this portion of Scripture as it is read it with usual fear and trepidation.

    Yet we must ask that if there was a historical message from God to ancient as well as modern Israel contained in these troubling words but more so a serious warning to the modern Church – can we afford to be in denial???

    In EXODUS 24:12 Jehovah said unto Moses, “Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee TABLES OF STONE*, and a LAW*, and COMMANDMENTS* which I have written; that thou mayest teach them….

    Traditional historical & Modern Judaism is NOT* the LAW* and COMMANDMENTS* which God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai.

    Judaism then and NOW* is a man-made religion created by Jewish RABBIS* for Jewish people and for those converts to the religion. Jehovah’s LAWS* and COMMANDMENTS* is NOT religiosity as many would have us believe but is a peculiar way of Life that is followed by those who are obedient to HIM*…

    But what is JUDAISM or Jewish tradition?

    The illustrated Oxford Dictionary describes Judaism as the religion of the Jews/ Jews collectively; Jewish – of or relating to Jews/ of Judaism; tradition – a custom, opinion or belief handed down to posterity, esp. orally or by practice…

    Students of Judaism know that there are several factions – Conservative, Reform, Orthodox, Hassic etc;

    The Talmud is one of the major “holy” books of Judaism.

    This book is held in higher esteem than The Holy Scriptures in some forms of Judaism, this is stated in the Talmud… The TALMUD* is the body of Jewish civil and ceremonial law and legend comprising the MISHNAH* and the GERMRA*…

    It is from the writings of the Talmud where the so called “RACIST” curse of HAM* started. The Talmud states that BLACK* people are cursed with BLACK* skin because Noah cursed his son (Ham) on the Ark.

    We know however from the Scriptures that Noah got DRUNK* and his balls were literally at the door and his son refused to cover his father but rather told his brothers in a attitude of irreverent poetic humor…

    It is clear from the Talmud what the diabolical penalty for disobedience to the Rabbis was – (no wonder JESUS did not spare these inglorious “basterds”)…

    In ERUBIN 21b it says – “whosoever disobeys the Rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in HELL”…

    In SANHEDRIN 76a the Talmud states that “God will not spare a Jew who (“marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean)…”

    The penalty for hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God (is it no wonder that Jewish life is treated as sacred and ARAB, GENTILE and every other life DAMNABLE)…

    In SANHEDRIN 58b it says that “if a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, that Gentile must be killed”…

    Today Palestinian Olive Oil producers have their exports treated unfairly because the Talmud says that it justifiable to cheat non-Jews…

    In SANHEDRIN 57a it says that “a Jew need not pay a Gentile (“Cuthean”) the wages owed him for work”…

    In referencing MOED KATTAN 17a it says quite clearly that “if a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there”…

    The mythology rampant TODAY that Jews possess some superior legal status in the world has come down from the Talmud…

    In BABA KAMMA 37b it says that “if an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite…the payment is to be in full.”

    The Jews argue that they have not stolen land from the ORIGINAL* settlers of Canaanite lands (and based on war & conquest when Joshua & Caleb entered this new land – and we understand the “DEAL” God had made with Abraham) – however, today the situation is frankly pathetic…

    In the Talmud, BABA MEZIA 24a tells us that “if a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile (“heathen”), it does not have to be returned. (cited also in Baba Kamma 113b).

    This diabolical collection of rabbinic writings called the Talmud – states categorically in ERUBIN 21b in the SONCINO* edition:-

    “My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament).”

    Jews today value the oral traditions of the so-called learned RABBIS* above the inspirational word given to MOSES*…

    No wonder JESUS said – “call no man Rabbi”… For HE* was the only ONE* worthy of such a TITLE*….

  107. @ Sargeant

    “TMB gotta defend his “elevated status” …

    Question my dear brother???

    Who has done this ELEVATION?

    It seems like someone raised the roof without me knowing in advance…

    Another question?

    If I go to MY FRIDGE* and take an “apple” or an “orange” – can I be willfully charge for stealing?

    Misc: My book are free* to PURCHASE (LOL) at;

    http://www.publishamerica.net/product90712.html

  108. Much of modern day Jewish tradition is based on the TANAKH…

    The Tanakh according to Wikipaedia came into prominence when “The Great Assembly” (Hebrew: כְּנֶסֶת הַגְּדוֹלָה‎) or the “Anshei Knesset HaGedolah” (אַנְשֵׁי כְּנֶסֶת הַגְּדוֹלָה, “The Men of the Great Assembly”), also known as the “Great Synagogue”, (Could this have been the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN?) was, according to “Jewish tradition”, an assembly of 120 scribes, sages, and prophets, in the period from the end of the Biblical prophets to the time of the development of Rabbinic Judaism, marking a transition from an era of prophets to an era of Rabbis…

    “Tanakh” is not the Hebrew word for the Old Testament…

    “Tanakh” is a created word…

    It stands for “TORAH” (LAW INSTRUCTIONS); NEVI’M (The Prophets) and KETHUVM (The Writings)…

    When you insert the vowel points to TNK – you have TANAKH.

    TANAKH just like Judaism and Talmud it’s not mention in Scriptures, the reason being they all are words created by unlearned Gentiles who call themselves Jews…

    Mark 7:13 says that these said JEWS* were “making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye…

    Scathing condemnation of those who claim to have Abraham as their father…

    For Jesus this didn’t mean CRAP!!!

    Actually, HE* clearly said to them that they were like their “(FATHER*) the DEVIL***…

    So Abraham’s SEED* meant “diddly-squat” with a TRUE LOVE* for JESUS!!!

  109. Georgie Porgie

    Sargeant

    I am quite aware that TMB’s status as a bar raiser was given by the omniscient and all wise BT. But TMB accepted the alcolade, or at least he didn’t state that he was not a bar raiser.
    Secondly, to whom much is given, much is required. Ah lie?
    What is very clear from his comments is that he does not know the topic he started out discussing very well, and he is loathe and unable to respond properly to any reasonable questions asked without ad hominems, attempts to play to the gallery and or obvious distractions. He has not been able to bring any scripture from the Bible to support any of his error, but resorts to quotations from here there and in the air, in rokesque fashion. .It is quite hilarious.

    And of course he is getting lots of rope.
    It is said. The higher the monkey climb the tree the more he show he tail.

    The more this joker continues rambling the more he demonstrates that he has said all that he knows about Abraham’s three lines and the practice of reverse primogeniture- which were both irrelevant to the scriptures with which he started his discourse.

  110. HERE IS A RIDICULOUS PARODY OF HOW MANY MODERN JEWS SEE RELIGION:

    This should make us all think about so-called jewishness…

  111. Georgie Porgie

    Ms anon

    Please kindly note that you have not offended me at all.

    That we have “ become a royal priesthood:” is taught in 1 Peter 2 but I am not sure if you meant to say “born out of sin” or BORN AGAIN (literally “out from above in the Greek) from sin, which is more correct.

    Re “Mary was also descended from David via another line . David had several sons eh?”
    Are you aware that David had several sons.
    Are you aware that the line given in Mathew via Solomon was tainted and that is one of the reasons why Mathew 1:16 states “and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.”

    This was important not in showing that Joseph was Christ’s adoptive father, but in advancing the thread started in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus would be born of a virgin. Cf also Isaiah 7:14 Galatians 4:4

    If you watch this little video and check the Scriptures yourself, perhaps you might learn a little something here my friend.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqKzGLdWmeM

    You will of course find Mary’s royal lineage described in Luke chapter 3, a fact I omitted to point out yesterday.

    I hope that I have now shown you from the Scriptures that Mary was of royal lineage, and that “Mary was also descended from David via another line, since David had several sons, or other sons.

    You state that Jesus’ royalty and priesthood came from both stepfather and his heavenly father. NOW YOU KNOW THAT THIS IS FALSE! Joseph was descended from the cursed Jeconiah (Jehoiakin cf Jer 23).

    Note that though we are taught the we (Christians) have been adopted into God’s kingdom, and he becomes our father when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, that the doctrine of adaption of the believer (huios thesia) has nothing at all to do with what we call adoption today.

    Note that Jesus was not adopted as we are, and he is never called “huios” once in the NT Greek. Jesus was EVER the Son of God.

    The marriage of Mary and Joseph is not ANY symbol of God’s willingness to adopt us as his own. The marriage of Mary and Joseph has nothing at all to do with the doctrine of adaption of the believer (huios thesia). That is another issue all together. What is more in view here is the concept of the kinsman redeemer, which is best illustrated in the book of Ruth (which also mirrors the truths of Ephesians 2).

    Christ’ royalty or his priesthood has nothing to do with adoption nor is it enhanced there by. This is contrary to the teaching of Hebrews which deals with Christ’s priesthood, and states that he is EVER a priest after the order of Melchizedek without beginning or end.

    I hope I have clarified a few things for you. But in the final analysis I always advise folk to do like the Saints at Berea who searched the scriptures to see if the things they were taught was really so.

    I will later try to post a good note from a great source on the doctrine of the adoption of sons.

  112. All the people posting messages on this thread are missing the point.

    They are neglecting the tribe of Aaron (who preferred to be called “Ronnie”).

    Ronnie begat Shaniqua, Jamal, Dickwad and Smegma (Genesis, 15:3). But Smegma’s fourth wife Barbra (of the Stri-Sand) begat Steve, who married Geoff’s niece, Roberta Moo-Gabe (Ezekial 24: 9). And Ronnie was sore displeased, promising to SMITE the seed of Geoff.

    And the seed of Geoff was SMITTEN, yea unto the twelfth generation (Proverbs, 9: 24). But in the thirteenth generation came Joshua, Samuel, and Big Dave (also known as Dik-Hed in early Hebrew sources). And Big Dave was sore displeased with all the smiting.

    So Dave reached a covenant with the Lord (who in those days preferred to be called “Marcia”), and Dave and Marcia DID smite all the seed of Steve, yea unto the sixteenth generation. Decades passed in the sand, and there was an awful lot of smiting going on (Psalms, 31: 5).

    And then came Tanisha, the wife of Dwayne (Kings, 7: 42), who was sore displeased with the endless smiting and the disagreeable bathroom facilities (Isaiah 2: 95).

    And Tanisha reached a covenant with the Lord (who in those days preferred to be called “Groucho”). So Tanisha and Groucho did SMITE the seed of Geoff’s niece Roberta. All were SMITTEN except Jethro, the second cousin of Dumbass (Exodus, 5: 31)

    Jethro was found as an infant in a river and raised as a Prince of Egypt (Deuteronomy, 15: 3). And then came the day of his bar-mitzvah. And Jethro was sore displeased with the entire smiting situation, so to bring peace to the land he chose to call himself “Bados” at his bar-mitzvah. And his seed thenceforth was called Bar-Bados (Luke, 15: 3).

    This IS the word of the Lord.

  113. Georgie Porgie

    @ Ms Anon

    Here is a good short comprehensive note on the doctrine of the adoption of sons as taught in the NT.

    Clearly Jesus was not adopted as a son of God as believers are. In the above I ought to have said Jesus is never called a teknon.

    The word adoption in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word (huiothesia) which means “the placing of an adult son” and refers to the formal act of recognizing the maturity of an adult son. The word is found in five New Testament passages: Rom. 8:15,23: 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5.

    A new-born baby is (brephos), as in “the babe (brephos), lying in a manger…”. The word sometimes refers to the fetus, as in “…the babe (brephos) leapt in her womb…”

    The believer is also called (teknon), a child which is growing up but which is still under parental care. Hence John 1:12, “…to them gave He power to become the sons (teknon) of God.”

    But a Christian is also in union with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is called (huios), “an adult son”. So, in union with Him, we are said to be adult sons also, although we may be (brephos) or (teknon) by experience.

    To the people living in the predominantly Greek and Roman culture of the 1st Century A.D., the word (huiothesia) would bring to mind the ceremony of toga virilis, in which a 14-year-old boy went through an investiture ceremony with the adult male members of his family. At this ceremony, speeches of challenge to the youth would be made, and offerings would be made to the gods. Then, the boy would stand in the center of the group and take off the child’s garment that he wore. A new adult man’s robe, or toga, would be placed on him. This was the toga virilis, the “robe of a man”.

    At this time, the 14-year-old was given adult privileges and responsibilities. He could conduct business in his own name, could buy and sell property, could marry, could vote in the Assembly, and in many other ways could carry on as an adult citizen. Of course, he was not mature enough or wise enough to exercise all of the privileges he had; and he was not experiences enough to live up to all of the responsibilities. But the seriousness of his position as a citizen was impressed on him; and if he was intelligent and hard working, he would grow up to be an adult having integrity and character.

    Application: The spiritual use of the word “adoption” signifies the placing of a newborn child, in the spiritual sense, into the position of privilege and responsibility attached to an adult son. The question arises as to why a naturally born child needs to be adopted. Are we not, after all, “born again”? It is here that the true meaning of “adoption” comes in; because in the New Testament, “adoption” refers to a positional advance. The new believer is advanced positionally to his majority, even though at the time of salvation he is spiritually immature, a “babe in Christ”.

    Because spiritual adoption takes place at the moment of salvation, there is really no period of childhood experience recognized for believers. The Christian has been placed into the privilege, liberty, and duty of a full-grown adult. Spiritual adoption imposes the same way of life on all children of God. This requirement is reasonable because the Christian life is to be lived in the sustaining and upholding power of the Holy Spirit. And this provision is available as much for one person as for another.

    Every believer, from the moment of salvation, is in full time Christian service. While long years of experience and training in the Christian way of life give skill and maturity, those years add no more resources or provision than were available when the Christian was first saved. Therefore, the word “adoption” means that from the very first of our Christian lives we have full provision, the freedom to have a relationship with God on an adult basis, the freedom to serve Him. Full-time Christian service is nothing more than the freedom to have a relationship with God.

    There is also a future aspect to “adoption”, that of our ultimate placing as adults in eternity, as shown in Romans 8:23. There we will have the resurrection body, we will see Christ face to face, and we will have no Sin Nature or human good. So we will be able to function perfectly in Christ, as adults in maturity.

  114. There’s a reason why, we blacks have no sustainably large black communities in this world. Oh! I concede we live in communities sponsored by whites, but not owned by blacks. This specific incident of blogging about religion, has unmasked on really completely befuddled we are as a people. Most “Parrot”bible toting christians are lost, lost in themselves. The European indoctrination has replaced, once good common sense with arrogant intellectual foolishness. Why are most of you, selling, peddling a lie, for our European oppressors? Are you so miserable being black, that you would continually allow yourselves to think in the European mindset? Come on people, wake up. If in the twenty first century, with all of this information available to us all, and some of us choose ignorance, then guess what, then like Carter G Woodson said, we must invest in the “Talented ten percent.” I’ve read elaborate writings on this blog, on religion, let me ask any of you this, has religion made a better life for any of you and your families, and how has it done so? Most of us, Barbadians, are caught up in the semantics, and pageantry of intellect, but intellect has its price. The propagation of literary inaccuracies endangers generations yet unborn. Intellectual integrity, should be the compost, from which of you will build and sustain your positions. To otherwise plagiarize someones writings, without accurate mention of the author, is incidiously academically disrespectful. The difference between our European invaders and us, the “Giddy masses,” is that Europeans “Plan for generations yet unborn.” They have to plan far in the future you see, because to not to so would contribute to their demise. You who contribute these eloquent writings on this blog, well, perhaps you too are worried about our demise as a people. Tell me, how many black owned large financial institutions are owned by Barbadians? How many major commercial enterprises are owned by Barbadians? If North America,and Europe, stop their citizens from vacationing in Barbados for six months, where would the economy of Barbados be financially, better yet, where would most of your finances be? Okay, so most of you know the bible verse and text, I’m impressed. Life’s a business, what about your Financial IQ’s, can we start a blog about that? Enough already, bajans. Let’s be more productive with our time, and like an old headmaster I had use to say, “Let’s make wise use of our time.”

  115. If we are going to argue that out of the [12] TRIBES of Israel that JUDAH* is the one through whom the “genesis” of the JEWS came – the question is, where does the other [11] TRIBES factor in the grand scheme of things?

    Is the knowledge that we are spoon FED really truth?

    Let’s see what some of the reference material we cite can give us any indication as to where we are in this debate…

    In the Tanakh the words “Jew” – there are ONLY two meanings (1) a descendant of Judah or (2) someone who was loyal to the split kingdom of Judah. There is NO other meaning.

    Strong’s Ref. # 3064, Romanized Yhuwdiy, Pronounced yeh-hoo-dee’, patronymically from HSN3063; a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (i.e. Judah): , KJV–Jew.

    This kind of Jew is not a description of the descendants of Jacob, just 1/12th of them.

    Strong’s Ref. # 3062, Romanized Yhuwda’iy, Pronounced yeh-hoo-daw-ee’, (Aramaic) partial from HSN3061; a Jehudaite (or Judaite), i.e. Jew: , KJV–Jew.

    A Jehudaite is a member of the nation of Judah. This would include all the non Israelites who lived in the Kingdom of Judah…

    Why was the nation called Judah?

    Most places are given their name after some famous person.

    Because the kingdom was called Judah, that did not mean the people living there were descendants of Judah.

    Most of them did not come from Judah at all.

    Strong’s Ref. # 3067, Romanized Yhuwdiyth, Pronounced yeh-ho-deeth’, the same as HSN3066; Jewess; Jehudith, a Canaanitess: , KJV–Judith.

    Hmmm it appears to be female Jews who are Canaanites?

    This will need to be looked into this one further.

    Strong’s Ref. # 2453, Romanized Ioudaios, Pronounced ee-oo-dah’-yos, from GSN2448 (in the sense of GSN2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah: , KJV–Jew(-ess), of Judaea.

    This would include the tribes of Benjamin, Levi and Judah … as all the “GOYIM” who lived in the country of Judah…

    Strong’s Ref. # 2449, Romanized Ioudaia, Pronounced ee-oo-dah’-yah, feminine of GSN2453 (with GSN1093 implied); the Judaean land (i.e. Judaea), a region of Palestine: , KJV–Judaea.

    This would be about 1/3 of the land area of Israel, where the nation of Judah existed.

    BUT WHO WERE THE JEHUDITES / JEWS

    NUMBERS 1:21 Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:23 Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:25 Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty.
    NUMBERS 1:27 Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:29 Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:31 Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:33 Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:35 Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:37 Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:39 Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:41 Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:43 Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
    NUMBERS 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.

    =603055, total number of 11 tribes

    Levi not numbered… so let’s use average
    603055 / 11= 55095 average per tribe.
    55095 X 12 = 661,140 Israelites (total) numbered males over 18

    These 3 tribes were who the Jehudites were:
    Judah 74600
    Ben 35400
    Levi (avg) 55095

    Nation of Judah 165095 / 661,140 = 25%

    75% of the Israelites were never Jews – Jehudite = of the kingdom of Judah…

    The word Jew can mean one who joined a political group or if you wish Jew can mean Jehudite or kingdom of Judah…

    There is not now a kingdom of Judah and there has not been a kingdom of Judah for 2,300 years…

    Any definition you pick – no matter what there is, no such thing as a Jew that has existed for 2,300 years…

    Those who became part of the nation of Judah were 3/12ths of the tribes meaning 75% of the tribes of Israel were never Jews.

    THE ISRAELITEs NEVER DROVE OUT THE REST OF THE CANAANITE ARABS FROM THE LAND…

    II CHRON. 2:16 Solomon took a census of all the foreigners who were in the land of Israel… and they were found to be (153,600) one hundred fifty three thousand and six hundred…

    When Solomon took census, he did not go into the Arab tribes (Philistines, Canaanites, Jebusites, Hivites, Hittites, Moabites, Midiaites, Parrizites) that were there before the Israelites crossed the Jordan river…

    The foreigners numbered by Solomon were those who escaped with them from Egypt…

    The Canaanite Arabs who were already in the land of Canaan far exceeded the 150,000 mentioned in 2 CHRONICLES…

    You can prove that by simply looking at the verses where they mention the battles and the numbers of Arabs they fought against…

    The foreigners that Solomon counted were those who migrated to Canaan with them from Egypt… then there were hundreds of thousands of Arabs already living in Canaan when the Israelites returned…

    When the Israelites left to go into Egypt, there were less than 50 Israelites in existence on earth…

    When they left Canaan, there were thousands of Arabs still living in Canaan.

    Those multiple Arab nations in Canaan were producing even MORE descendants in the 490 years while the Israelites were SLAVES* in Egypt…

    When the Israelites crossed over the Jordan, they were far out numbered by the other Arabs already there and to boot, while out of the 1.3 million who came out – they brought 150,000 more Egyptian Arabs with them from Egypt…

    This is only a small fraction of the verses showing the fact that the Israelites NEVER drove out all the Arab tribes that were there when they crossed the Jordan river…

    JOSHUA 15:63 reminds us that “as for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day”… (INTERESTING)!!!

    JUDGES 1:21 says “and the children of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites that inhabited Jerusalem; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Benjamin in Jerusalem to this day…

    JUDGES 1:32 says “but the Asherites lived among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land: for they did not drive them out”…

    JUDGES 1:19 says “and the Lord was with Judah; and HE* drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron”…

    JOSHUA 17:12 says “yet the children of Manasseh could not drive out the inhabitants of those cities; but the Canaanites would dwell in that land…”

    Not only did they live among all the other Arabs who were there before them, they also lived among over 150 thousand others they brought with them out of Egypt at the EXODUS***

    The Israelites fought with them, traded with them, married them and produced their children with them…

    The whole nation of Israelites was a nation of Israelites and non-Israelites, the divided nation was two nations of Israelites and non-Israelites…

    A nation of people is the combined people who live in that nation.

    Israel was NEVER* a nation of Israelites no more than America is a nation of Englishmen…

    When you say nation of Israel or nation of Judah, you are not saying nation of Israelites, you are saying nation of a pot luck of Arabs…

    King David lived so close to his non-Israelite neighbor, that he could lust after BATHSHEBA* (THE WIFE OF HIS HITTITE GENERAL URIAH) who eventually became his ole’ lady.

    The nation of Israel had non Israelite armor bearers and non Israelite captains, in their military…

    The kingdom of Israel, the kingdom of Judah were not nations of Israelites, they were nations of every Arab nation that lived in those kingdoms.

    There were non Israelites in the Israelite military, the Israelites married the non Israelites around them…

    The word Jew, means one of the kingdom of Jehudite / Judah – and of course that included a whole pot luck of non Israelites…

    Jeudah, also spelled JUDEA, JEUDE, JEUDI, OR JUDAH, Hebrew YEHUDAH, the southernmost divisions of ancient Palestine..

    In the Easton Bible dictionary Jew – the name derived from the Patriarch Judah, at first given to one belonging to the tribe of Judah or to the separate kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 16:6; 25:25; Jer. 32:12; 38:19; 40:11; 41:3), in contradistinction from those belonging to the kingdom of the ten tribes, who were called Israelites…

    It looks to me like Easton goofed…

    The kingdom called Israelites were composed of 9 tribes, not 10. The kingdom of Judah was composed of the Levites, Benjamites and tribe of Judah…

    A kingdom or nation is composed of
    #1 A specific land area…
    #2 The rulers of that land / people and…
    #3 The people who are ruled by those rulers…

    You can compare the kingdom of Judah with the Confederate nation in America. It was forged out of a political feud, it separated for a period of time and then it was overthrown and ceased to exist…

    The word Jew in the context of “Judaite” was the people of the nation of Judah. Jews / Jehudites = the people who lived in the kingdom of Judah…

    That would include all the Hittites, Moabites, Midianites, Jebusites, Egyptians… that would include all people who were ruled by that kingdom…

    The members of the tribe of Benjamin or Levi were no more Jews than any Cananites, Havites or Philistines who lived in that Empire / Kingdom…

    ESTHER 8:17 reminds us – “and many of the people of the land became Jews for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

    Strong’s Ref. # 3064, HSN3063; a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew)

    The people of the land were NON-Israelite Persians, who simply made themselves Jews.

    A Jew is not a descendant of the Israelites it is a political commitment to the kingdom of Judah – (which no longer exists)…

    The word Jew is not a reference to the 12 tribes of Israel.

    Jew is a reference to descendants of Judah or citizens of the nation of Judah.

    No one can belong to a nationality when that nation no longer exists…

    Benjamites nor Levites can no longer be referred to Jews no more than any living person today can be identified as a Trojan…

    The ONLY thing that made Benjamites and Levites Jehudites / Jews was their nationality. It is like what made the people of South Carolina, Confederates, was their split and loyalty to the break away nation…

    When the government of the divided kingdom lost their power to control that land area, the nation of Judah and every Jew (by nationality) ceased to exist…

    When Israel was divided, the kingdom of Israel extended over into what is now Jordan…

    The kingdom of Judah existed in the south. It was about 1/3 of the land area…

    When the Hebrew text identifies who Jews were – Jew is just short for Jehudite and Jehudite who were the people who were loyal to the southern split…

    This was the kingdom of Judah.

    The citizens were named after their kingdom (Jehudites / Jews ) and when the nation ceased to exist, so did the nationality ceased to exist…

    Jews / Jehudites have not existed since the nation ceased to exist…

    Jews no longer exist no more than anyone today is a Spartan…

    The word Jew no longer applies to any Benjamite or Levite…

    You fairly can say because no Jewish / Jehudite nation no longer exist, that does not change the fact that the descendants of Benjamin or Levi are still descendants of the Israelites?

    True and it does not change the fact that the Benjamites, Levites and tribe of Judah were nothing but a pot luck of Arabs in the first place…

  116. @ Anonymous

    “so most of you know the bible verse and text, I’m impressed. Life’s a business, what about your Financial IQ’s, can we start a blog about that?”

    NO BRO, LET’S TEACH A NEW MINDSET!!!

    LET’S TEACH FOLKS HOW TO GROW WEALTH THROUGH MENTAL FISCAL STIMULUS!!!

    Daniel 12:1 reminds us that in the last days men will run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased…

    Folks have a human right to knowledge (in whatever form they choose it)…

    That in itself is a fundamental HUMAN RIGHT enshrined within our DNA…

    Thankfully no one has the PATENT* on knowledge…

    WISDOM* however maybe a different “kettle of fish”…

    Your serious point of view on financial literacy is well taken MY DEAR BROTHER…

    What is sad Anonymous is that those of us who are WISE* financially and can teach others how to build wealth – as BLACK* folks (especially West Indians) we have a lot of growing up to do in this respect…

    There is too much “NIT-PICKING”; PETTY-JEALOUSIES; RANCOR AND CAGE-RATTLING!!!

    The “crabs-in-a-barrel” syndrome is something we have not been able to break free from no matter how much knowledge we have…

    No wonder so many of us Black folks who are doing great in tough economic times – who have invested WISELY*, saved and are building businesses based on serious entrepreneurial activity choose to live outside of the countries we love…

    Better to be Joseph down in Egypt than the FAMILY* who squabbles, fights and kills eachother down in Israel… (SADLY, even down in Egypt brother was still trying to kill brother)… sad, SO SAD…

    My philosophy is simple BRUV* -

    Every man for himself – God for all…

    If we can agree – then we can do some business… If NOT*, well the above statement applies!!!

  117. Georgie Porgie

    Re If we are going to argue that out of the [12] TRIBES of Israel that JUDAH* is the one through whom the “genesis” of the JEWS came – the question is, where does the other [11] TRIBES factor in the grand scheme of things?

    Who among serious sane sober sound systematic students of the Scriptures teaches that
    out of the [12] TRIBES of Israel that JUDAH* is the one through whom the “genesis” of the JEWS came?

    WHO TEACHES THAT?

    Here we see a strawman being set up.

    Let us use the law of first mention to harp on the role and importance of JUDAH!

    The Scriptures teach the following in Genesis 49:8-11

    8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father’s children shall bow down before thee.
    9. Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10. The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
    11. Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass’s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: 12. His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

    The punch line in this prophesy given by Jacob on his death bed about his fourth son Judah is given in verse 10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

    This prophesy refers to Christ who is here referred to as Shiloh who arose from the tribe of Judah, and who will become King for ever. Note that is unto him Shiloh that the gathering of the people will be. This prophesy is yet unfulfilled, and awaits fulfillment in the millennium when the people will be gathered to Christ as noted by Isaiah in chapter 60 in the verses cited at the beginning of this discussion.

    Note that the term JEW is never used to refer to any person in Israel UNTIL AFTER THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY c f Ezra Esther Nehemiah etc Ah lie?

    After the kingdom of Israel as led by David and Solomon divided in the days of Rehoboam and Jeraboam the northern 10 tribes were called ISRAEL, the two southern tribes were called JUDAH.

    If you read Chronicles and Kings carefully, you will find that after Jeroboam raised the golden calves in Dan & Beersheba that MANY OF THE FOLK IN THE NORTHERN TRIBES DEFECTED TO THE SOUTH INCLUDING THE LEVITES.

    The Northern kingdom was captured and taken away into captivity by the Assyrians. After some time the Southern Kingdom was captured and taken away into captivity by the Babylonians who had superceded the Assyrians. History reveals that the Southern Kingdom ended up in the same area to which the Northern kingdom had been transferred.

    It is only after 20 % percent of this group returned with Zerubbabel Ezra and Nehemiah that we see the word Jew being used in the OT. Don’t take my word. Go read it for yourself.

    There is not now a kingdom of Judah and there has not been a kingdom of Judah for 2,300 years…NOT SINCE THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY And there wont be a split kingdom ever again, because JESUS WILL REIGN OVER THE ENTIRE GROUP OF ISRAELITES IN THE MILLENNIUM along with the gentiles of the world.

    .One wonders who it was that returned after the Babylonian captivity? Were they only judiths and judy’s and julies. How do we know who they were? Who are the people called Jews in the NT? Who are the people of whom the High Priest in John 11 referred to when he spoke of THEIR NATION.

    Re The word Jew is not a reference to the 12 tribes of Israel. Where is the Scripture references? Some one is contradicting post exhilic scriptures, and I am not talking about the memoires of TANK or THOMAS TRAINS.

    If Jew is only a reference to descendants of Judah or citizens of the nation of Judah why are the folk in the NT always called Jews instead of judiths and judy’s and julies. . Did Mathew and Mark and John and Paul not even know their nationality.

    If “No one can belong to a nationality when that nation no longer exists…” Why are the deportees and exhiles from Israel called Jews throughout the OT even after AD 70 Remember the aged John wrote after AD 70. Some one is going all around the world to conclude with LIES. Ah lie?

    Why is it that some bar raisers start in the Bible but cant prove their poinbt in the Bible but are wandering life a ship with out a rudder or rambling like Rose?

  118. Georgie Porgie

    Now Onlookers

    I am always willing to learn

    There is no Nation OF JEWS we are told . OK!
    JEWS DONE we are told . OK!

    So of whom does the prophet speak in Obadiah 15 3t secq (Note this quote is from the Bible book of Obadiah not TANK TOPS or TANKS MEMOIRES or any thing so OK?)

    15. For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

    16. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

    17. But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

    18. And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

    19. And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.

    20. And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.

    21. And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD’s.

    Who are the house of Jacob?

    Who are the the house of Esau (if not Edom also Arabs)? Read the whole chapter and see.

    What will be thier posessions and victories in the day of the Lord?

    What does the Word of God say about this matter? (Not the Tank Top or the Tank or whatever)

  119. Georgie Porgie

    Now I am quoting from Malachi 4
    Chapter 4
    1. For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    2. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

    3. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Again when is the day of the LORD?
    To whom is the prophet speaking when he says ” unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings?”

    Who is the Sun of righteousness but the same person whom the Arabs are bringing gifts in Isaiah 60 that we agree are the descendants of Abraham’s lines?

    Who is the LORD of hosts?

    Of whom is the prophet speaking when he says “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.”

    What does the TANK TOP and TANKS MEMOIRES SAY ABOUT THESE MATTERS ?

    How does the raiser of the bar explain these UNFULFILLED scriptures that relate to the millenium?

  120. Georgie Porgie

    Blackett my dear friend

    I dont know about the TACKY BOOK OR TANKS MEMOIRES etc so I have to talk about what I know the OLD BOOK THE BIBLE. And I dont know no post modernism nonsense either

    I in to my third Monor Prophet to teach you a likkle ting or two bout Israel man.

    Here is what youcan AD-DUCE or DE-DUCE or EX-DUCE from Jonah. If you dont like the verb duco you can go to ferro ferre tuli latum and see what you can IN-FER!

    BYW this is from my notes entitled JOTTINGS IN JONAH

    • JONAH –A TYPE OF ISRAEL
    • We should not conclude a lesson on Jonah without speaking of the dispensational significance of Jonah and his mission.
    • Jonah was called as God’s ambassador and sent to preach repentance to the gentiles –so was Israel.
    • Israel, like Jonah, was chosen of God to be His witness. (See Deu 14:2 and Eze 20:5.)
    • As Jonah, so Israel was commissioned of God. (Note Is 43:10-12 and 44:8.)
    • 2- Like Jonah, Israel was disobedient to the will of the Lord. (Cp. Ex 32:1-4; Judg 2:11-19; Eze 6:1-5; Mk 7:6-9.)
    • Jonah initially refused compliance with the divine purpose and plan, objected to the gentiles being blessed, fled from his unpleasant task and was tossed into the sea.
    • In the same way, Israel, because of their disobedience to God, has been thrown into the sea by being swallowed up by the nations of the world; who will yet give her up when Christ returns.
    • Then Israel will be witnesses of God everywhere.
    • 3 Just as Jonah found himself among men of different nationalities, so Israel in disobedience has been scattered throughout the earth. (Deu 4:27; Eze 12:15.)
    • While Jonah was among the heathen they came to a knowledge of God; while Israel is among the nations the Gentiles come to know the Lord. (Note Romans II: II.)

    • 4 Jonah was miraculously preserved in the prepared fish, just as Israel has been miraculously preserved in the plan of God through the centuries of exile and dispersion. (See Ho 3:3;Jer 30:11 and 31:35-37.)
    • Although Jonah was punished by being cast into the sea, Jonah was, however, not lost, but was preserved during this part of his experience . In like manner , Israel is now cast into the sea of the nations, [by being dispersed among the nations] , but like Jonah , Israel is not lost .
    • Israel is not being assimilated by the nations ,but is being kept for God. Eventually , Israel will be cast up on earth (in a sense) and become ambassadors of Jehovah and the conveyors of blessings to the gentiles .
    • 5 Jonah, repentant and cast out by the fish, is restored to life and action again .
    • Similarly , Israel repentant and cast out by the nations shall be restored to her former national position. The nation of Israel was to have been a light to the gentiles .They were supposed to be God’s missionaries to the world .
    • Today the Jew is in a kind of the whale’s belly till he learns his lesson for her disobedience .
    • But as in the case of Jonah, the Lord will come to them a second time and the Jews will preach and men will hear just as in Jonah’s time.
    • Off course this will all happen towards the end of the great tribulation and we will get the chance to see the action from a place of safety from our vantage point in the clouds.
    • Eventually, just as Jonah, now obedient, went about his mission to Ninevah, similarly, Israel, obedient, shall ultimately engage in her original mission to the world .
    • Jonah was successful in that his mission was acted upon to the salvation of Ninevah .
    • Similarly, Israel shall be blessed in that she shall be used to the conversion of the whole world.
    • Truly the book of Jonah is a prophecy of Israel. Though there is not a word of prediction in this book, yet it is full of prophecy concerning Israel.

    What does the tanky and the tank tops say about that man? Eh?

  121. Georgie Porgie

    Blackett

    What does the TAnk top and Tanks memoires say about Haggai 1 man?

    To whom was the prophet speaking? Not Jews returned from Babylon? The same folk who dont have a nation according to you Oh raiser of the bar!

    Has any of these prophesies been yet fulfilled?

    9. The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

    20. And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, 21. Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; 22. And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.

    23. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Who is Zerubbabel in this verse.

    What is Zerrubbabel’s title in verse 21 Sir.

    Who is here called servant? Is he called servant elsewhere? Surely this is not the same Zerrubbabel?
    What is the signet? What does it stand for?

    Could this prophet be remotely saying that Christ will have authority over the whole world as taught in Revelation 5 and 19 and in Phillipians 2. Where the words ALL KINDREDS AND TONGUES ARE USED

    Cant you just see all those children from the other two lines bringing their gifts into Jerusalem just as you cited in from Isaiah 60 my dear dear friend, and depositing them at the FEET OF THE SEED?

    Consult the toppy or the tanky or the tank top man

  122. @Terence M. Blackett and @Georgie Porgie…

    If I May please…

    Throughout this, and many other debates, here and elsewhere, quotes from “sacred texts” are brought forward to try to prove the arguer’s point.

    It must, however, be agreed that there is uncertainty in the interpretation.

    Further, for those debating in the English, it must be acknowledged that the original texts were not written in modern English.

    So, from this then, I have three questions:

    1. Are there any non-religious records which can substantiate or counter the religious records?

    2. Who decides which is the correct interpretation and/or translation of any “sacred text”?

    3. Why do the Hindu and Buddhist (and other non-monotheistic) religions so rarely enter the debate in the western world?

    These are sincere and serious questions.

    I hope and look forward to similar answers….

  123. Georgie Porgie

    Blackett we in Zephaniah chapter 3 here

    Show me the church in these verses man
    Show me from these verses OR THE NT where the Church has taken over thee promises Sir. (You may refer to your Tank Top and Tanks Mempoires)

    13. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

    14. Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

    15. The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

    16. In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

    17. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

    18. I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.

    Clearly the prophet is not speaking of either the Isreal of the PAST OR THE PRESENT. Seems to e that he is speaking of the FUTURE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL IN THE MILLENNIUM. Ah Lie.

    Note that verses 13 DOES NOT SAY The remnant of THE CHURCH it clearly says “The remnant of Israel ” Ah lie.

    Note that in verse 14 It is NOT Sing Oh Church BUT Sing,

    It is NOT Sing Oh Church BUT O daughter of Zion; shout,

    It is NOT Shout Oh Church BUT O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem

    You got it yet?

    Now tell me Sir Who being spoon fed now?. Or your Bible different to mine in some sections ?

  124. Georgie Porgie

    Blackett thou raiser of the bar

    Harken unto the words of Habakkuk in chapter 3

    7. I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction: and the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.

    What you think Terrence? Could this be the same Midian that you identified as part of the three {3} seeds of Abraham Sire?

    Help me understand the rest of the chapter as it relates to the eschaton Sir. I want to be a bar raiser too man.

    11. The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

    12. Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

    13. Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

    14. Thou didst strike through with his staves the head of his villages: they came out as a whirlwind to scatter me: their rejoicing was as to devour the poor secretly.

    15. Thou didst walk through the sea with thine horses, through the heap of great waters.

    16. When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops.

    17. Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls: 18. Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

    19. The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds’ feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.

  125. Georgie Porgie

    What should be clear to the uninitiated is that at the end of the Minor Prophets (not Jonah) there is usually at least one short passage that speaks of the fate of Israel in the eschaton- especially the millennium.

    I dont rant and rave about Israel’s current troubles, but I have faith in the predictions about them after the Lord comes at his epiphanaea or secon phase of the second coming.

  126. @ ANONYMOUS

    Here’s to you:-

  127. A WEBSITE EVERY BLACK PERSON SHOULD RESEARCH FOR THEMSELVES BEFORE WE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT SO-CALLED JEWS* WHO FRANKLY HAVE PRECIOUS LITTLE TO DO WITH OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST…

    http://www.blacksandjews.com/Welcome.html

  128. The Birth of the EARLY* Church -

    Paul’s early missionary journey took him through some interesting GENTILE* land…

    Christians were such named FIRST* in ANTIOCH…

    BITHYNIA, CAPPADOCIA. DERBE, EPHESUS / EPHISIANS, GALATIA, ICONIUM, LYSTRA, PHRYGIA, PONTUS, TARSUS … All of these are cities in what we now commonly call Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, etc…

    In the OT this was all part of the Hittite Empire…

    Throughout history these land areas were called many different things, but by any name they are the same place – (i.e. one person living in the very same house could have been a Mexican, a Texan and an American, by nationality)…

    While the same people and their descendants lived in the same place, what they were called depended on what political grouping they had and who was possessed with the greatest power to murder the most people basically controlled the land area…

    The Hittite Empire included Turkey, Lebanon, parts of Syria and Canaan / Israel…

    Noah’s Ark Settled in Turkey and it is written the whole earth was populated by the sons of Noah…

    The Hittites / Turks / Ephesians / Galatians or what ever you want to call them were most likely the first cities or nations on earth after the flood…

    The whole earth was flooded for over a year and it would have taken months for the land to dry up…

    To hazard ONLY a guess but I figure Noah’s sons did not wait for the mud to dry up before they crawled under the covers with their wives… (sorry ya’ see the humor in human evolution)…

    Unless the children of Huey, Dewy and Louie married their own brothers and sisters, they created their families with their first cousins…

    The grand children of Shem, Ham and Japheth were out of their brother’s children and their own…

    Gen 36:2 says that Esau married Hittites…

    Esau’s clan was the Edomites and of course the Edomites married the Israelites…

    EZRA 9:1 tell us that “the people of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians, and the Amorites…”

    In this period they cast out the Hittites and their own children… but these children cast out, were the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Israel…

    The events of Joshua are recorded about 1400 BC, that is 850 years the Israelites were producing children with all the Arabs around them…

    JOSHUA 3:10 said – “hereby you shall know that the Living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites…

    But* JUDGES 3:5 said that “the children of Israel lived among the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites” and in JUDGES 3:6 reminds us that “they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons…”

    The Israelites had been marrying these other Arabs around them and producing children with them for over 800 years before the book of Ezra was conceptualized, so when they cast out these Arabs in the book of Ezra, the Israelites who cast them out were descendants of the same people they cast out… (WHAT AN IRONY)!!!

    Again the AGE-OLD story of BROTHER v BROTHER!!!

    The book of Ezra did not end such mixing, David married Bathsheba the wife of Uriah ( who was the mother of Solomon ) and Solomon had a whole pile of Hittite and other Arab women to tuck him in bed morning, noon and night!!!

    By the time we get to the NT, all those churches Paul and the CREW* had traveled to in Turkey were the churches of Arabs / Turks / Hittites / Ephesians … all of these saints said to be Gentiles were most likely descendants of the Israelite clan – all ARABS mixed in with all kinds of differing tribes…

    When those Arab women who were cast out with the children of the Israelites had returned to their families and of course those Israelite spread their seed / heredity of Israel, Isaac and Abraham into their children and grand children…

    When you look at the churches in the New Testament, when you look on any old Biblical map to see where they were, one would know that the first Christians were Arabs by descent …

    Arabs who were descendants of the Israelites and vica versa.

    When the Apostles went to the Arab Christians in the churches of Galatia by this time the Europeans had never heard anything of Christ.

    The Arabs were Christians while the European ancestors of the FAKE JEWS (Ashkenazis) were still involved in witchcraft and human sacrifices…

  129. The Mindlessness of Ignorant Christians -

    Many evangelical Christians today sit under the ruinous teachings of deluded pastors and ministers of darkness who spout venom at the QU’RAN* and Arabs without given equally the same weight to the Jewish TALMUD* and deceived Jews…

    Is that christian FAIRNESS?

    Why is GOD* no respector of GEOGRAPHY?

    JESUS spent HIS* first [12] years in an ARAB* country…

    The prophet said that “Out of *EGYPT* have I called my SON.”

    The Israelites were assimilated and absorbed into the different Arab lands losing their Hebrew language…

    Only a very small part of scholars practiced Hebrews…

    Even the Talmud and the present version of the Torah was translated from Greek / Latin…

    It is quite humorous to hear the importance the “blights of Europe” put on the ability to read Hebrew, when the Hebrew they have is just a translation from Greek or Latin.

    The only exception being text like the dead sea scrolls, but they are not the original text, they are only fragments and they were not written until AFTER Christ.

    Hebrew was an ancient Iraqi / Chaldean language…

    The Israelites began losing their language of Hebrews long before Christ…

    In one passage of the Torah, it is written how the Israelite children could no longer speak Hebrew because they had become such a pot luck of children from all the Arabs around them. Neh 13:24…

    And their children spoke half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews’ language, but according to the language of each people…

    2,000 years ago, Egypt and most of the western world was ruled from Rome…

    In the first century, Jesus of Nazareth began his ministry…

    After Jesus was crucified, His followers fanned out across the empire.

    Church tradition credits Mark with bringing Christianity to Egypt during the 1st century.

    Christianity spread throughout Egypt – it would eventually become known as the Coptic church.

    The Egyptians believed in the trinity, in a flesh trinity, which was basically a father and a mother and a son.

    And that’s why we know when Mark spoke about the holy trinity, the Egyptians didn’t have a major problem in accepting the holy trinity as three in one…

    Christianity that emerged in Egypt – its early teachings had remained something of a mystery until the discovery in 1945 of mystical Christian texts buried for more than 1,000 years…

    Named for the Egyptian town near which it was unearthed, this collection of some 50 works is known as the Nag Hammadi library…

    What the Nag Hammadi discovery shows is that the early Christian movement was interesting and complicated…

    It shows us that, instead of four gospels, which we have in the new testament, there were dozens, and it shows us what they said, and that they’re really quite different…

    The Nag Hammadi library paints portrait of Mary – as a trusted and outspoken confidant of Jesus…

    Here, she’s one of his closest disciples and one to whom he entrusted special teaching…

    Peter tells Mary that she can’t possibly have heard things like this from the lord because he would never tell them to a woman, and she objects and speaks against Peter, and is defended by the other disciples…

    There were a great many writings about Christianity and the accounts of Christ. The Bible of Today’s Christians is the composite of books put together by Egyptians…

    At the time of Christ the Romans ruled Egypt as they ruled Egypt…

    The major language of educated Egyptians (as the rest of the Roman Empire) was Latin or Greek…

    The text of the Torah was also Latin or Greek…

    Athanasius, the head of Egypt’s Christian church selected the books of the Bible that is used by Christians today…

    Athanasius proposed this list of acceptable texts, and the books found in the bible today are those he suggested in Egypt…

    As you open your Bible, know the text was selected from the Coptic Christian writings ( in Greek / Latin ) by the Egyptian Athanasius…

    Of course the Israelites were a composite of Egyptians…

    The tribe of Joseph came out of the womb of the Egyptian mother Asenath…

    ACTS 2:5 says “and there were dwelling at Jerusalem, devout men, out of every nation under heaven”…

    ACTS 2:10, “Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in *EGYPT*, and in the parts of Libya…”

    In Acts 2:5 we find devout men of every nation and in Acts 2:10 we find Egyptians are included in those devout Christians…

    MATTHEW 2:13 says “and when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appear to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into *EGYPT*, and be you there until I bring you word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him…”

    MATTHEW 2:14 says, “when he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into *EGYPT*…”

    MATTHEW 2:15 says “and was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of *EGYPT* have I called my son”…

  130. Is this really the End Times aka World War III
    1. Israeli Fundamentalists Vs Muslim Fundamentalists
    2. Capitalist$ Government$ 4 Oil
    3. Christian Fundamentalists don’t want peace they want war in babylon
    Keith Hudson + Earl Flute – True
    To My Heart/Satan Side

  131. Georgie Porgie

    Ms Annonymous

    Here is J Vernon McGee on Coniah aka Jeconiah and his cutting off and the two lines of David as presented in Matt 1 & Luke 3

    Hope this helps

    JUDGMENT OF CONIAH
    Now we come to the very frightful and harsh judgment against the man Coniah.
    As I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence;
    And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand of them whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans [Jer. 22:24–25].
    “Coniah” is Jehoiachin who was also called Jeconiah. Why does God call him Coniah? It is because the “Je” in Jeconiah stands for Jehovah. God is saying, “Don’t identify Me with that man!” He goes on to say, “Why, if he were the ring on My finger, I would throw him away!”
    Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
    O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
    Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah [Jer. 22:28–30]
    God cries to the whole earth to be His witness: No descendant of Coniah will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah. This is one reason that Joseph could not have been the father of Jesus. Joseph was in the line of Jeconiah, and God says no child of that line will sit on the throne of David.
    Does that mean the throne of David would be vacant from then on? Listen to another prophecy: “For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel” (Jer. 33:17). There will be Someone on the throne of David, but He will not be a descendant in the line of Jeconiah. In Jeremiah 36:30 we read: “Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.” I remind you that Jehoiakim was the father of Jeconiah. God cut off that line.
    Now the remarkable thing is that there are two recorded genealogies of Jesus Christ, and there is a reason for that. The one recorded in Matthew chapter 1 leads to Joseph. It comes from David, through Solomon and Jeconiah, to Joseph. Joseph’s line gave to Jesus the legal title to the throne. But Joseph was not the father of Jesus. Jesus is not a descendant of that line. The second genealogy is in Luke 3:23–38. This is the genealogy of Mary, and it does not come through Solomon but comes through another son of David, Nathan. There is no curse and no judgment on that line. The Lord Jesus Christ was virgin born, and He came through Mary’s line. That is where He got the blood title to the throne of David. I find this to be one of the most remarkable things that has occurred in this world?
    That is why God calls the earth to listen: “O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.” He wants the earth to see that this is the way He has worked it out. God’s purposes will not be thwarted. He is able to bring judgment upon whomever He wills; yet He was able to fulfill His promise that the coming Messiah would be a descendant of King David.

  132. Georgie Porgie

    The Lord Raiser of the Bar and author and celebrated scholar with brother at Oxford etc came on this thread and cited Isaiah 60: 6 & 7 seeking to teach us what the Bible teaches about the sons of Abraham

    Since the only thing that this text teaches about the sons of Abraham is that the sons of Hagar and Keturah will in the Millennium come offering gifts to the son of Isaac. He rambled on to give a very primitive baic sunday scholl lesson to show that Abraham had three lines and that God often used practised reverse primigeniture.

    He then aserted to tie his nonscholarly aproach to his dismal and diabolical diatribe to the next part of the title of his goo i.e “And what will it take for this dysfunctional family etc+ that JESUS CAN NOT RETURN TO EARTH EXCEPT THE ARABS AND JEWS UNITE.

    Having had his junk debunked using the same Scriptures that he sought to explain, he has been unable to defend his primary thesis; and so he ends up like all false or errant Bible teachers just as Peter opines in 2 Peter 2

    wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest;

    For when they speak great swelling words of vanity,

    The man is carrying on like Rambling Rose and wukking up like a batsman who cant handle good fast bowling.

    HE HAS BEEN UNABLE TO PROVE HIS POINT
    HE HAS BEEN UNABLE TO STAY ON POINT

    And as hard as he tries he cant get the herd and the gallery to whom he is playing to back him.

    Wont you folk help him out? Mind you the blind will be following the blind and like him you will not only be wallowing in the mire of Biblical illiteracy but deeper in the murky waters of ignorance than BPP in the Gulf.

    Come please add to my entertainment today. Rescue Blackett the Bar Raiser as he waffles.

    He might have a PhD and talk the Muslim Professors in the UK but he cant defend his thesis. His Bible knowledge is lacking One suspects that he comes to BU seeking help and material to plagiarize.

  133. @BU Fundamentalist’s
    on the online matrix
    Who is the one?

    Donovan D Who is the one

    I Roy – Who is the one and Version

    Neo
    He also tells Neo about The One, a human with the power to manipulate The Matrix, who has been foretold to end the war between humans and machines, …

  134. Clean Hands Pure Heart – Prince
    Far I.

  135. BEWARE WHEN MEN WILL SPEAK WELL OF YOU…

    “How terrible it will be for you when everyone says nice things about you, because that’s the way their ancestors used to treat the “FALSE” prophets!” (Luke 6:26)…

    You have heard that it hath been said, that you should love your neighbor, and hate your enemy…

    But I say to you, “LOVE* your enemies”…

    “Pray for them that persecute you…that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven, for he makes the sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

    “For if you love them which love you, what reward have you?”

    “Do not even the tax-men do the same?”

    “And if you salute your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? And if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive from, what gain have you? For sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.”

    “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Most High: for He is kind to the unthankful and to the evil alike. Be merciful, as your Father also is merciful…”

    “Take heed that you do not do your good works before men, to be seen of them, otherwise you have no reward of your Father which is in heaven…”

    The words of JESUS* many would do well to live by – but their PHARISAIC* hearts are full of callouses and they can’t discern between what is right or wrong…

    Like physical and mental illness – they are sick in spirit and need the real balm of Gilead to soothe their souls…

    THIS BLOG THREAD AGAIN SHOWS THAT “RELIGION” IS NOT “SALVATION”…

    There are many who can hang [2] words together but their hearts are FULL* of EVIL* pride, maliciousness, surmising and a spirit of wanton assassination…

    They have forgotten that THE CRUSADES* could never have been won by the sword…

    Jesus won through “LOVE”…

    Yet we pick unnecessary fights amongst ourselves when we have a real “ENEMY” to wage war against!!!

    But that is the subtlety and subterfuge “OUR ENEMY” has seduced us into doing…

    Many of us are “WRONG & STRONG” – because winning is more important than being “HUMBLE” and to win means hitting below the belt and fighting “NASTY” if that’s what it takes…

    Surely “PRIDE” comes before a “FALL”…

    When King David sinned with Bathsheba, (screwing another man’s wife) and then committing willful manslaughter to camouflage his dastardly deeds…

    By the time God had sent the prophet Nathan to confront the King – his approach was peppered with “TACT”, “WISDOM” and “DIPLOMACY” worthy of a motion picture…

    By the time Nathan the prophet got through with DAVID* he had already condemned himself…

    This is God’s method!!!

    Man’s method is all to self-evident….

    Amongst the “FALLOUT” from DAVID’s wrongful actions – the man of God said, was the fact the “heathen were blaspheming the Lord.” (II Samuel 12:14)…

    That mattered big-time to the Lord…

    Any reason that Christians give the “pagans” chance to look down their noses at God, we will have to answer for…

    The difference between reputation and character is that the latter is what you really are deep down on the inside…

    Reputation is what people think you are…

    If I have to choose, I go for character every time because it will determine my standing before God even if at times I am at ODDS* with other folks!!!

    Reputation, image and the facade of the exterior is important. That cannot be denied because we live in a media driven, media obsessed world where we are told that – “IMAGE IS EVERYTHING”!!!

    However, public and overt displays of image are usually fragile, flaky, forlorn creatures which seldom hold up when the going gets tough…

    What you do not want to do is to stoop to the level of the slanderers…

    JESUS* didn’t!!!

    In so doing we sacrifice CHARACTER* for the sake of reputation – compromise practical godliness for the sake of “PUBLIC IMAGE” and frankly, the price we have to pay becomes far higher than anyone is truly willing to pay…

    On that NOTE -

    A BLESSED SABBATH TO THE “TRUE JEWS” AMONGST US…

  136. A PARTING HISTORICAL SHOT ACROSS THE STAR-BOARD BOW….

    Moses could not have been a “JEW” because he was from the tribe of LEVI*** making him a Levite
    (Num.26:59)…

    The word/name “JEW” is not a Hebrew word, it’s an English construct so many other thing…

    There is no letter “J” or “J” equivalent in the Hebrew language…

    As a matter of fact, the letter “J” is one of the last letters to be added to the English alphabet…

    It was created in the 1600′s in France, so there was not a letter “J” in existence during Biblical times…

    Neither can the word “SEMITE” be found in the bible ALTHOUGH WE USE IT OUT OF CONTEXT!!!.

    The Biblical Israelites were Hebrews descendants from Shem – (Noah’s son)….

  137. @TMB: “The word/name “JEW” is not a Hebrew word, it’s an English construct so many other thing…

    If I may please suggest a book to you Mr. Blackett et al: “The Surgeon of Crowthorne” also published as “The Professor and the Madman” by Simon Winchester.

    It documents the creation of the Oxford English Dictionary, and the efforts of two rather intense men.

    Well worth the time spent reading.

    And religion isn’t at all involved.

  138. Georgie Porgie

    Blackett
    You are talking nonsense
    You started a thread on Isaiah 60:6&7 and came on BU forgetting that there are folk here that really know the Word and can divide it. It is you that trying to win a debatre man.

    I just explaining the Scripture and listening to you quote books about post modernism in the attempt to sound intellectual, and play to the gallery man. Since your initial salvo you have neen helpless and hopelessly out of your league.

    By what meaure do yoyu decide that I am wrong and strong, forreproducing texts straight from the Bible that have nothing to do with the church.

    Stop coming from the Tank Tops and Tank’s memoires and etc and show us where the NT teaches that the scriptures aout the millennium refers to the Church man. Stick to the point man. Bowl at the stumps man.

    For a so called intelectual and author and article writer and bar raiser you are found wanting in a little chat with an untalented failure and 3/10 teacher man?

  139. Georgie Porgie

    Mr Blackett
    You have me very confused.

    You began the discussion by saying that

    In the book of Isaiah 60: 6, 7 the prophet says:
    “The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah: all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense: and they shall forth the praises of the Lord.. All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance upon mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.”

    Then you said “To first of all understand these two verses, we must first be able to explain and understand what or who is Midian, Ephah, Sheba, Kedar and Nebaioth based on Biblical history.”

    Do we really need to find out all the information you posted to understand that people from somewhere will bring gold and incense and praise the Lord? Is that not what the text clearly says?

    Having pointed out that the Bible teaches in Genesis 25 that Abraham had 3 lines and that the persons named in Isaiah 60 are offspring of Abraham’s other sons, is it not a logical conclusion that the passage you chose as the spring board for your thesis then suggests by your correct interpretation of Genesis 25 that the two other lines of Abraham (i.e the Arabs) will be bringing gold and incense to offer to the King in the Millenium who is none other than the SEED of Abraham descended from Isaac.

    Tell me if I understand incorrectly. If you explain how, oh great raiser of the bar!
    Can you tell the readers of the thread how “It is important to note that Abraham’s [3] lines of descendants are pivotal to the plan of salvation?”

    Can you tell the readers of the thread how it is that “we must conclude that the Abrahamic promised blessings also included all of his posterity” when Galatians 3 clearly tells us that there is only ONE SEED.

    How is it that you got Genesis 25 right and cant get Galatians and Romans right too Sir?

    How is it that you can correctly opine that “What was distinctive about Isaac’s line or future genealogy would be that God choose this line to bring Messiah Yeshua into the world, but that you cant see that it is this same Yeshua who will be worshipped in Isaiah 60 by the other descendents of Abraham who you ably identified for us from Genesis 25 .
    How is it that you can correctly opine that “this line would be interspersed and intermarried over the next 2000 years right up to the coming of Mary who was to be the one who would bear the Holy Child Jesus” but that you want to fool the readers of BU that Abraham’s first wife was Hagar who bore him Ishmael.

    Ah beg ya man tell me where I gone wrong above man. Help me to be a bar raiser like you and not just an untalented 3/1o teacher.

  140. Georgie Porgie

    Mr Blackett

    How is it that you wander about and can not return to, or defend your main points in your ‘award” winning thesis Sir?

    There are a lot of folk who want you to teach us how “These lines are crucial to our understanding of Bible prophecy and how God is working out the plan of salvation through Abraham’s seed.” We already understand that the other two lines will come with their camels and bring gold and incense to Isaacs offspring in the Millenium.

    You opine that folk display “ignorance of allowing the other [2] lines of Abraham to exist in virtual obscurity without paying the necessary attention to the part that they play in the prophetic scheme of things: as if ardent Bible studying Christians have not read Joshua Judges Ruth and 1& 2 Samuel 1 &2 Kings & 1 &2 Chronicles or if they have not read the specific prophecies against ALL of these lines including EDOM and MOAB & AMMON.

    Re “The is the reason why God is now allowing the eyes of those who are seeking revelation, light and present truth from the Word of God to bring this knowledge to the forefront of the minds of men.”

    So you mean that God is causing that the relevant prophetic scriptures about the final regathering of Israel as predicted in several of the 16 prophetic books inter alia, that people have not read are now being read? People enough want to find out how Israel will get out of the fracas that they are in right now, man

    People enough learning that God will win Israel’s worse battle at Armageddon Blackie.

    People enough watching Lindsay and Hagee and Van Impe and others ALL OVER THE WORLD on their tv’s!

    People enough want to know where you get this information from to the effect that “Jesus Christ cannot return to earth until there is unity amongst the children of Abraham based on the covenant God made with him.”

    So you mean Jesus not coming back then?

    Did you get that info first hand from the Lord in the Arabian dessert like the Apostle Paul? Cause it not in the Bible.

    You say “In Isaiah 60: 7, the 2nd son of Ishmael – Kedar came first and then Nebaioth the firstborn came second according to word from the prophet. Why is this?”

    Don’t matter who come first or last They BOTH MUST COME AND BOW THE KNEE AND WORSHIP JESUS THE JEW.

    You harp about people not knowing that there were three lines. Yet you pontificate that “It is important to note that the [3] lines of Abraham actually became [2]. Sarah’s line through Isaac became the [12] tribes of Israel and the children of Hagar & Keturah became the people of the EAST as they dwelt together… This is a very important distinction! Man you don’t know if you coming or you going. You have certainly raised the bar.

  141. @TMB

    You say that the letter J was non existence in bibical times

    Question: How do we account for the names in the bible that start with the letter J.eg. Joseph John. and others.

  142. Georgie Porgie

    They used Y or I

    Sign on the Cross in Latin

    Id est Iusus rex Iudaerorum

    This is Jesus the king of the Jews

  143. Georgie Porgie

    Latin for gate ianua from which we get the English words janitor janitorial etc

    Latin for judge iudex, iudicis from which we get the English words judge judicial judiciary etc

  144. @ ac

    “Question: How do we account for the names in the bible that start with the letter J.eg. Joseph John. and others…”

    In the days of Jesus, 2000 years ago what language was spoken?

    As far back as the “dynasty” of the kings of Israel – what was the spoken language then?

    With the discovery of the writings of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS* and the Bedouin finds in the CAVES OF QUMRAN* – what language was the text in?

    Enlightenment translations of the Bible from Latin & Greek originated from what original language?

    Readily provided answers to questions does not always allow for proper investigation – it is something needful to dig for your own answers understanding what Paul said that “every workman must be able to divide the word of truth”…

    The Bereans went home and DAILY* searched the Scriptures to see if the thing which PAUL & SILAS were saying were the “TRUTH”… (Acts 17:11)…

    So it is incumbent on all of us!!!

    However in the light of your question:-

    Jacob – the Anglicized form of “Yaakov”. From the Hebrew, meaning “held by the heel, supplanted, or protected.” The 3rd of the 3 Patriarchs and the father of the [12] sons who were founders o the tribes of Israel. The book of Genesis (32:28)..

    Jeremiah – from the Hebrew (Yirmeyahu), meaning “God will loosen (the bonds)” or “God will uplift.” Jeremiah is one of the [6] Hebrew Prophets whose name is mentioned as a personal name in the Talmud. He belonged to a family of Priests living near Jerusalem, and began to prophesy in 625 B.C.E…

    Jesse – from the Hebrew, meaning “wealthy” or gift.” (Yishai) is the exact Hebrew form of his name…

    John – the Anglicized form of his Hebrew name (Yochanan)…

    Jonah – from the Hebrew, meaning “dove.” (Yona) is the exact Hebrew form of his name…

    Jonathan from the Hebrew, meaning “God has given” or “gift of God.” The exact Hebrew form of his name is (Yehonatan)…

    Joseph – from the Hebrew, meaning “He (God) will add or increase.” (Yosef) is the exact Hebrew form and Yusuf in the Arabic…

    Joshua – from the Hebrew (Yehoshua ) meaning “the Lord is my salvation.” In the post-Biblical period Joshua was one of the most commonly used Biblical names…

    Judah – from the Hebrew, meaning “praise.” An Anglicized form of the Hebrew (Yehuda)…

  145. JESUS CAME TO DIE FOR MANKIND!!! PERIOD!!! NOT FOR THE JEWS – BUT THE WHOLE OF MANKIND FROM ADAM TO THE END OF THIS CREATION!!! No wonder there is so much confusion amongst jewery and so-called christians!!!

  146. Israel and Gentiles Contrasted.

    Terence is hell-bent on inciting hatred for the Jewish people, and of course, in his terribly convoluted, entirely twisted, grossly erroneous hermeneutics, as SDA so evidently do in relation to Israel’s absolutely assured restoration to their *Unconditional* Irrevocable, everlasting possession of the LAND, as repeatedly, and emphatically stated in the Old Testament, literally CONFIRMED in 1948, AND miraculously kept from annihilation as the Arab countries attempted in 1948-49, and again in 1967, to DESTROY her, BUT, they simply can’t, as Almighty God, said they WILL NEVER again be uprooted, once He gathered THEM back to their ancient homeland.

    Let us hear again from Professor Walvoord on the distinction between Israel and Gentiles AFTER Pentecost.

    “It should be obvious to anyone even a casual study of the subject that the term *Israel* and *Gentiles* continue to be used AFTER the institution of the church at Pentecost, and the terms are MUTALLY exclusive. Both Gentiles and Israelites continued to exist after the church began, and while some of each came into the church, the Gentiles and Israelites continued as such. Israel as a ‘nation’ IS addressed again and again, AFTER the institution of the church. (Acts 3:12; 4;*, 10; 5:21, 31, 35; 21:28, etc.). A notable instance is Paul’s prayer for Israel that they might be saved (Rom 10:1), obviously a reference to Israel outside the church.”

    “The term ‘Jew” also continues in the New Testament AFTER the beginning of the church. In 1 Corinthians 10:32, it is specifically mentioned. “Give no occasion of stumbling, either to the JEWS, or to Greeks, (Gentiles) or to the church of God.” Here is a clear threefold division of humanity into (1) Jews, (2) Gentiles, (3) church of God.”

    Israel’s continued privileges.

    “The Apostle Paul calls attention to Israel’s UNIQUE place and privilege constantly in his espistles. He declares that their peculiar promises include the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, the promises, the fathers, and the privilege of being the people of whom Christ should come (Rom. 9:4-5).”

    “Now, it is obvious that Paul is referring to Israel ‘in unbelief’ when he refers to those who have these privileges, for he declares: “For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren’s sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh; who are Israelites…” ( Rom 9: 3-4). He declares that even in unbelief “are Israelites,” and relates to them ALL the peculiar privileges of Israel. It is evident that the institution of the church DID NOT rob Israel in the flesh of its peculiar place of privilege before God.”

    Gentiles continue to be exculded from Israel’s privileges.

    “The declaration of Romans 9:3-4 is given added weight by the fact that in Ephesians 2:12 Gentiles are expressly declared to have been EXCLUDED from the promises given to Israel: “That ye (Gentiles) were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenant of the promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.” The passage goes on to state their privilege as Christians in the church. It is noteworthy that Paul does NOT say that the Gentiles came into these same Israelitish promises when they were converted; rather he pictures a work of God bringing Jew and Gentile INTO the new order entirely – “one new man” (Eph 2:15). It may be concluded without further argument, that the distinction between natural Israel and Gentiles continued AFTER the institution of the church – Israel IS STILL a genuine Israel, and Gentiles continue to fulfill their part. While this FACT of the Scriptures is more or less admitted even by the amillennialist, the significance is not adequately realized. The continuance of Israel and Gentiles as such is a strong argument against either one being dispossed of their own place. Israel IS NOT reduced to the bankruptcy of the Gentiles to become “strangers from the covenants of promises.” (Eph. 2:12), and the distinction between the two groups is maintained on the same sharp lines as before the church was instituted.”

    “If natural Israel continues as an entity APART from the church, with its own program and destiny, it becomes at once an interesting and vital argument against the TRANSFER of Israel’s promises to the church, or their loss by any such means. Amillenarians are forced to a position which by its nature is untenable. They must admit the existence of natural Israel APART from the church because IT IS too EVIDENT that this is a FACT of Scripture and history.” (A Basic Text in Premillennial Theology, The Millennial Kingdom, pp.164-166) emphasis added.

    Again, this is just scratching the surface of this amazing subject, which has been so maligned by the SDA et al , who hold to the entirely erroneous position of amillennialism, which HAS NO Scriptural NOR historical position to stand on.

  147. THE MOST INEXHAUSTIBLE STUDY RESOURCE ON THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN…

    IS THIS HATRED OR IS THIS FACTUAL?

    YOU DECIDE!!!

    http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Andrew.Carrington.Hitchcock/Synagogue.of.Satan/0740-1818.htm

  148. Jack Bernstein publishes (in 1985) his book, “The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel,” which contains the following statement under the heading, “A Challenge”…

    “I am well aware of the tactics of you, my Zionist brethren, use to quiet anyone who attempts to expose any of your subversive acts.

    If the person is a Gentile, you cry, “You’re anti-Semitic,” which is nothing more than a smokescreen to hide your actions.

    But, if a Jew is the person doing the exposing, you resort to other tactics.

    First, you ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given widespread distribution.

    If the information starts reaching too many people, you ridicule the information and the persons giving the information.

    If that doesn’t work, your next step is character assassination. If the author or speaker hasn’t been involved in sufficient scandal you are adept at fabricating scandal against the person or persons.

    If none of these are effective, you are known to resort to physical attacks.

    But, NEVER do you try to prove the information wrong.”

    Jack Bernstein subsequently offers to debate the Anti-Defamation League on live television, the ADL decline, and instead Bernstein ends up being “ASSASSINATED” by the Mossad. (cf. Andrew Carrington-Hitchcock [THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN] )…

  149. Georgie Porgie

    What I find most amusing Mr Blackett, the celebrated PhD, schoar, author, article writer and raiser of the bar on BU came here started a thread purporting to teach us from the Bible about the sons od Abraham — ALL THREE LINES.

    He got debunked. He has engaged in all types of distractions, distortions, playing to the gallery trying to incite hatred for the Jews (more Jews) BUT EVERYTIME A TRUE THEOLOGIAN COMES UP WITH FACTS AND SOUND BIBLE EXEGESIS HE CAN NOT BRING ANY SCRIPTURE TO SUIPPORT ANY ISSUE HE RAISES.

    Try harder Blackie ma boy

    distractions, distortions, denigration and division.
    Low down Hood has a bidigester that you can talk into you know. You can convert your bovine excrement to saleable methane gas.

    THE SCRIPTURES CLEARLY TEACH THAT THE PROMISES THAT RELATE TO THE CHURCH ARE NOT THE SAME AS THOSE THAT RELATE TO ISRAEL

    None of your moronic mouthings or distractions, distortions, denigration and division. will change that fact. SO RANT ON FRIEND. We enjouy how you wuk up when faced with good accurate fast bowling.

    RAISE THE BAR ONCE MORE MAN RAISE THE BAR LOL

  150. For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.

    He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups.

    Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death. (Paul’s admonition to the Ephesians)…

    Deceiver Jews like SID ROTH with this concept of O.N.M view as a “”superior identity assertion,” a form of “third race replacement theology” – requoting the Word of God by saying:

    “When the ancient Jewish spiritual DNA merges with the New Covenant Gentile spiritual DNA, it will explode with “life from the dead” resurrection power as One New Man” (Eph. 2:14-16).

    http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=art_&page=NewsArticle&id=7861&security=1043&news_iv_ctrl=1053

    Is this the “new domination theology” being advocated by the “dark lords” of deceptive end time Christianity?

    http://www.atam.org/DNA.html

  151. Look Terrance Blackett and Georgie Porgie:

    There are NO chosen people.

    Jews/Gentiles/Palestians/Muslims/Christians/Arawaks/Bajans are all God’s people if we believe in God.

    Or maybe we just lucky to be here and and are no more special than the guava tree in my backyard.

    For too long the world, incuding write sensible scholars, and politicians has allowed themselves to be deceived with this chosen people nonsense.

    The Jews/Gentiles/Palestians/Muslims/Christians/Arawaks/Bajans are no more special than the Arawaks who lived in Barbados 10,000 years ago, and maybe none of them are any more special that the paw-paw tree in my back yard.

    Its way past time that sensible academics and policy makers stop making policy on the basis of old scribblings of semi-literates.

    There are NO chosen people. Get it? There are NO chosen people.

    Think about that and then make your policy of what is good for most people here and now. Stop basing policy on the incoherent scribblings of semi-literates.

  152. 8)
    Roots.. Rock…. Rootical!! Pt 5 –
    Dj Ian Irie on mix duties!

  153. Georgie Porgie

    Last week I quoted some passages from some of the Minor Prophets to show that the Bible teaches that in the eschaton God will deliver his people from the wrath of the nations and regather them to Jerusalem

    I continue now with this article on Nahum which I wrote when I started to research my DMin thesis on The Prophecies of God in the OT as they relate to NT teachings.

    What the poetic book of Nahum did was to provide comfort to Judah that God would remove Ninevah (Assyria) from off the face of the earth, and that they would no longer be a threat to thier existence.

    In like manner, just as the prophesies of Nahum were fulfilled so that there is not a single Assyrian around today. The promises concerning the regathering of the Jews and the defeat of thier current and contemporary enemies will likewise come to pass.

    So here are my NOTES ON NAHUM part 1

    PROMISES IN NAHUM

    Nahum differs notably from his contemporaries, Jeremiah and Zephaniah, who were primarily interested in Israel’s reformation. Nahum says nothing about Israel’s need of repentance. Rather, the thrust of his message was that which Jonah wanted to see one hundred and fifty years earlier; namely God’s judgment on the Assyrians, and the doom about to descend upon Nineveh. It is a message of comfort to a harassed and fearful people in peril through the cruel and awful military power of Assyria (1:7,12, 13), who terrified Western Asia for over 500 years. Nahum predicts the overthrow of Nineveh as the retribution of God against the wicked Assyrians of Nineveh. Nahum’s major idea may really be put in the words “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” saith the Lord (Romans 12:19), a thought also presented in Deuteronomy 32:35,41,43; Psalm 94:1; 149:9; Proverbs 6:34.Nineveh had run roughshod over the nations, but they who take the sword shall perish by the sword (Matthew 26:52). Convinced that Jehovah though slow to anger will yet take vengeance on his adversaries, he focuses the light of God’s moral government upon Nineveh, and chants the death-dirge of the world’s greatest oppressor. He proclaims the judgment of the Lord, which though long deferred is sure, and will be complete and final. However, though the book focuses on Assyria’s fall and judgment, it is written to bring comfort to Judah.

    The calamity described in the book of Nahum is presented in excellent poetry which is expressed in strong and brilliant language whose rhythm rumbles and rolls, like the horsemen and chariots it describes. The outline below by Willmington facilitates our understanding of the book of Nahum. 1. The Patience of God (1:1-8).
    2. The Pride Of Sennacherib (1:9-14).
    3. The Promise To Judah (1:15).
    4. The Punishment of Nineveh (2-3) (a)

    The following outline is also most helpful:
    According to poetic structure the book may be divided into eight strophes (*) of nearly equal length.
    A- Introduction (1:1)
    B- Prophecy and Certainty of God’s Judgment on Nineveh (1:2-15)

    * A description of the Avenging Jehovah’s Holy wrath, who will not leave crime unpunished, against Nineveh unpunished (Chapter 1:2-6).
    * Jehovah must destroy Nineveh in order to be faithful to his own people, and so that Nineveh’s scheming against God will end (Chapter 1:7-12).
    * Deliverance promised to Judah, but judgment to Nineveh. (Chapter 1:13 -2 :2).

    C. The Description of God’s Judgment on Nineveh (chap. 2)

    *A series of brilliant pictures descriptive of the city’s assault and capture (Chapter 2:3-8).
    * The inhabitants of the city, once gorged, are now pillaged and terror-sricken with their
    ” knees smiting together.” (Chapters 2 : 9-3:1).

    D God’s Judgment on Nineveh described and her defenses shown to be useless (chap. 3)

    * Chariots rush against the doomed city, and are only impeded by the heaps of corpses lying
    about the city and in the streets, as greedy Nineveh lies prostrate and stripped (Chapter 3:2-7).
    * As No–Amon [Thebes ] succumbed, so must Nineveh also ; there is no escape. (Chapter 3: 8-
    13).
    * Resistance will be vain like devouring locusts, for Nineveh’s foes will come. In fact her king
    has already fallen asleep, and his people are scattered as sheep without a shepherd, while the
    while the nations rejoice at Nineveh’s collapse (Chapter 3: 14-19). (b)

    In studying Nahum one must see that “Nineveh’s destruction is not an act of capricious sovereignty, but the just reward of her iniquities. It is not the product of mere national hatred, or even vengeance. It is not Israel’s-pride that is at stake but God’s honor; and it is not even the redemption of his people that is primary, but the vindication of their God. The joy of Nahum, we repeat, is not merely the human exultation of an angry patriot over a fallen foe, but rather the glad cry of an assured faith in the God of the fathers. To Nahum, Nineveh’s destruction was subordinate to the saving mercy which Jehovah intended to show toward his own people and through them to the world.” (c)

  154. Georgie Porgie

    Part 2

    To properly grasp Nahum, one needs to compare it with Jonah, of which it is a sequel or continuation and supplement. It is both its complement and counterpart since the two prophecies form part of the same moral history. However, Jonah stresses God’s mercy and forgiveness and patience (2 Peter 3:9), and the temporary remission of His judgments. In contrast, Nahum in pronouncing divine judgment and total destruction on the second greatest pagan city in the Old Testament, speaks of the execution of God’s impending, eventual, and certain wrath against all sinners everywhere. Jonah had dwelt on the first side of God’s character -love (Jonah 4:2). Nahum brings out the second- the holiness of God which must deal with sin in judgment. (Nahum 1:2,6).

    Jonah dwells on the first side of Gods character (Jonah 4:2). God had revealed his name to Moses in his twofold character. “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, long suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty (Exodus 34:6-7a). This is the attribute of God exhibited in Jonah.

    In contrast, Nahum 1:2 proclaims that God is a jealous God and an avenger is the Lord, and that he will take vengeance on, and reserves wrath for his enemies. Nahum 1:3 teaches that though the Lord is slow to anger, He is great in power and will not at all acquit the wicked. When Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah, God was forced to forgive them since he is “faithful and just” (1John1:9). God forgave them on the basis of his promises and practice that truly repentant sinners would be pardoned. But when their short lived repentant attitude terminated in open defiance of the living God as shown in the blasphemous attitude of Sennacherib alluded to in Nahum 1:9,11, 200 years later, Nahum’s prediction was one of unconditional and final destruction. The time for judgment was imminent.

    We must recognize in the spirit of revenge and rejoicing in Nahum the just judgment of God rather than sheer vengefulness. This is in marked contrast to the theme of the book of Jonah, which also deals with Nineveh. In the book of Jonah, God forgave Nineveh; in Nahum He announces and executes its doom. Nahum rejoices over its downfall as Jonah would have done had his threats been carried out. “At last!” the prophet shouts, for the fall of Nineveh brings relief for Judah (Nahum. 1:12, 13, 15; 2:2). It is a cry of outraged humanity similar to the other cries against Assyria in Isaiah 30:30, 31; and Zephaniah 2:13-15. Nahum, in its general theme of victory over an enemy, might be compared to the song of Deborah (Judges5). To understand this attitude, it is necessary to study the history of Nineveh, and the cruelty of the Assyrians, and to consider what the Assyrian conquest meant. The city had one more denunciation given to it a few years later by Zephaniah (2:13), shortly after which these prophecies were fulfilled in 606 B.C.

  155. Georgie Porgie

    Nahum was written about one hundred fifty years after the revival of Jonah when the city of Nineveh was brought to repentance in “dust and ashes. No doubt the Ninevites were sincere then, and their repentance then delayed the judgment of God for about a century. But their godly sorrow did not last.

    The conversion of the Ninevites in response to the preaching of Jonah was short lived and they soon returned to their former ruthless, wicked ways, and became once more guilty of the very sins of which they had repented. Nineveh, the glory of the Assyrians, had come to a complete and deliberate defiance of the living God. They were not just backsliders. They had apostasized! They deliberately rejected and defied the God they had accepted, and worshipped.
    (2 Kings 18:25,30,35; 19:10-13). Since they had not realized that genuine repentance involves continuing in God’s word (John 8:31), the Ninevites had to learn that mercy unheeded finally brings judgment.

    The Lord accepted the haughty Assyrian challenge of 2 Kings 19:22-23 and Nahum was chosen to record the prediction of the final and complete over throw of Nineveh and the Assyrian empire. This empire which had been built up by violence and cruel oppression, perished in a violent and extraordinary way 86 years afterwards.

    God’s patience is infinite in depth, but it is not eternal in duration. The message of warning to be gleaned from the experience of Assyria is that, all that God can do with a rebellious, defiant and apostate people and nation is to destroy them.

    The tone and tenor of Nahum’s prophecy suggests that Nahum and his compatriots in Jerusalem lay bound and helpless in the grasp of a cruel, tyrannical enemy (1:I5-2: 2), that Nineveh was still at the height of her glory (3:16-17), that the destruction of Thebes was a comparatively recent event, and that Nineveh’s downfall though not yet obvious, was prophetically imminent. Hence the exact date of Nahum’s ministry was probably not long after 650 B. C.

    Since Nahum speaks of the capture of Thebes (No) in Upper Egypt by Assurbanipal in 663 B. C.
    as already past in 3:8-10, and since in all three chapters he predicted Nineveh’s fall as imminent
    (2:1; 3:14, 19), this suggests that Nahum, probably wrote close to 612 when this event occurred.
    This would place his ministry sometime during the reign of Josiah and make him a contemporary
    of Zephaniah and Jeremiah.

    It is noteworthy that Nahum has nothing to say concerning the sins of Judah, no threats of punishment for her, nor does he give any promise of a golden age, of peace and righteousness. He is strictly concerned with the downfall of Nineveh as a judgment of God upon her sins. These are listed as atrocities, idolatry, commercialism, and brutality, all of which are amply attested to in both literature and art.

    Nahum means “consolation comfort or compassion.” His message brought comfort to Judah, but was certainly not very comforting to the wicked Assyrians who occupied Nineveh. Nor was it meant to be, because “I am against thee” saith the Lord of Hosts,” is twice repeated (2:13; 3:5). This is instructive, since this in antithetical to the great Patriarchal promise of God for His people, “I will be with thee” which we have followed throughout this study.

    The event Jonah feared, occurred in 722, when Sargon II of Assyria destroyed Samaria and took the Northern Kingdom of Israel into captivity, scattering the ten tribes. Later, Sennacherib of the Assyrians almost captured Jerusalem during the reign of Hezekiah in 701 B.C.

    At the time of this prophecy, Nineveh appeared to be impregnable with its walls 100 feet high and broad enough for chariots to drive upon them. It had a circumference of sixty miles and was decorated with more than 1,200 towers.

    However, Nineveh fell in 612 B.C, about 18 years after this prophesy, being completely destroyed by the Medes from the north and the Babylonians from the south. Nahum not only predicted the fall of Nineveh but the very manner in which it would fall.

    The Historical record reveals us that the destruction of Nineveh occurred at the zenith of its power and was complete. Napopolassar, king of Babylonian with his invasion forces, besieged the city for three years, leading three massive attacks against it and failing each time.

    Because of this, the Assyrians inside Nineveh rejoiced and begun holding drunken parties. But suddenly just as Nahum predicted the Tigris river assisted the attacking armies of the Medes and Babylonians in its overthrow (1:8;2:6) when it overflowed its banks and sent its wildly churning waters against
    the walls of the city.

    Soon it had washed out a hole, into which gap rushed the Babylonians, and the proud city was destroyed. It was also partly destroyed by fire as promised in 3:13,15. God so effectually dug its grave that every trace of its existence disappeared for ages, until excavations since 1841 have confirmed the truth of this prophecy.

    The destruction of Nineveh was so great that when Alexander the Great marched his troops over the same desolate ground which had once given support to her mighty buildings, he did not even know there had once been a city there.

    The promise of God to Judah 1:15 that Nineveh would be cut off and that they would no longer need to fear this cruel nation was thus definitely fulfilled. In predicting the certainty of this punishment in 3:11-19 Nahum compared Ninevah to Thebes (No-Amon, see 3:8) the great capital of upper Egypt. It too boasted that no power on earth could subdue it. However both Jeremiah (46:25) and Ezekiel (30:14-16) predicted its destruction, which was fulfilled later by Sargon of Assyria in his campaign against Egypt. Now Nineveh’s hour had similarly come.

    The fact that the eventual doom of Nineveh was delayed for 200 years after Jonah’s preaching and after a further denunciation by Zephaniah (2:13), speaks of the degree or extent of God’s longsuffering, patience, and grace.

    IS HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF TODAY?

    YOU BET!

    BUT THE END WILL COME SOON!

  156. Georgie Porgie

    Let us now detail how each prediction in Nahum was fulfilled. First, God is described as jealous and the avenging Lord, who will take vengeance on his enemies, who reserves wrath for his enemies (1:2), and will not acquit the wicked (1:3a), on one hand. However, on the other hand, God is shown to be slow to anger despite His great power (1:3b-5), and the fact that none can stand before his indignation or abide in the fierceness of his anger (1:6).

    This passage pictures God as a well balanced adjudicator. Although we live in an age that we makes little reference to the wrath of God, we are here reminded that God is still is a holy God, who hates sin, and who will bring judgment upon it. Because He is a just God, He must therefore avenge all crimes, for He is a God of absolute justice, He will by no means excuse the guilty. Yet we observe that God did not bring judgment on Assyria in hot haste. He had been patient for a long time, because He is slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He is the Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and willing to forgiving iniquity. This passage is thus one of the many on the Old Testament that illustrates the truth of 2 Peter 3:9. Though God is slow to anger, as his action toward Nineveh in the book of Jonah shows, His long suffering is not to be interpreted as indifference or lack of power or slackness, for he is also full of wrath and indignation as indicated by Nahum 1:3,6. Though very patient, when he goes into action none can resist him. Now regardless of its power and prominence, Nineveh is clearly judged as doomed by a Holy God through the prophet Nahum. Assyria’s cruelty, power, and pride would come to an end by the power of God (1:6, 8-14). For “the face of the Lord is against them that do evil to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth (Psalm 34:16).

    The verdict pronounced on Nineveh revealed that “with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place (1:8), that the city would be captured while drunk (1:10), that they would be cut down and unable to afflict Judah anymore (1:12), that Nineveh’s Name would be blotted out (1:14), and that God would dig her grave (1:14). Nineveh had been weighed in the balance and found wanting.

    It is generally thought that the wicked counselor of Nahum 1:11 is Sennacherib, the evil Assyrian king who invaded Judah and surrounded Jerusalem in 701 B.C. during the 14th year of Hezekiah’s reign (2 Kings 18:13-19:37; Isaiah 36-37). At that time his armies were destroyed at Jerusalem’s gates and he was himself murdered as recorded in 2 Kings 19:35-37, he is referred to here because his arrogance was symbolic of Nineveh’s pride. We are ever enjoined to remember that “pride goeth before destruction” (Proverbs 16:18), and that “let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall (1 Corinthians 10:12).

    With respect to Nahum1:12, Scofield informs us that “the Hebrew here represents a transliteration of a long- forgotten Assyrian legal formula…[which]…proves, on investigation, to indicate joint and several responsibility for carrying out an obligation. Nahum quotes the Lord as using this Assyrian formula in speaking to the Assyrians, saying in effect, “Even though your entire nation joins as on person to resist me, nevertheless I shall overcome you.” As the words would have been equally incomprehensible to the later Hebrew copyists, their retention is striking evidence of the care of the scribes in copying exactly what they found in the manuscripts, and testifies to God’s providential preservation of the Biblical text. (b) The point that is stressed in Nahum 1, is that God Himself was the source of destruction of Nineveh. The promise was that Judah would no longer have to fear the cruel Assyrians.
    IS HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF TODAY?

    YOU BET!

    BUT THE END WILL COME SOON!

  157. Georgie Porgie

    Chapter 2 reveals that the king vainly tried to rally his drunken nobles to defend the city (2:5), but the Tigris had caused a flood which had washed away most of the wall which had seemed to them an impregnable fortress. The call to stand found no response (2:8), as every one attempted to flee. Spoil was abundant (2:9), and the city was looted while the people stood with their knees knocking together with fear (2:10).

    In irony it was asked, “Where is the dwelling of the lions (the national symbol of Assyria) where the lion and the whelps devoured the prey and none made them afraid (2:11)?” The Assyrians used to fill the city with the spoils of their victories, but now the processes were reversed. Though the enemy executes the deed it is really the Lord who is her attacker. The Lord specifically said, “I am against thee! (2:13).”

    We cannot read this without being struck by the solemnity of it all. Nahum prophesied this destruction. Today the traveler finds this great city Nineveh of the past still lying in ruins. God has brought everything to pass, exactly as predicted. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the Lord (Hebrews 10:31).

    The phrase “Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings and publisheth peace”(1:15) is a promise which points forward to the proclamation of the good tidings of Jesus, the Prince of Peace. This phrase also suggests that just as the destruction of Nineveh took place before the joyful news was given in this verse, that that the kingdom of darkness must fall before the kingdom of light breaks forth, and before the reign of the Prince of Peace can be inaugurated. Such a message has a value for all time.

    In chapter 3 Nahum expresses the certainty of Nineveh’s punishment by referring to the sacking of Thebes (3:8), the great capital of Egypt, which had also boasted that it could not be captured. However, Thebes, though populous and protected by seas and faithful allies was overthrown by Ashurbanipal (Sargon) of Assyria exactly as predicted by Jeremiah 46:25 and Ezekiel 30:14-16. Nahum points out that Nineveh was no more exempt from danger than was Thebes, because God had decreed her doom. He predicted that Nineveh would be no more secure than ripe figs when shaken from a tree, and that her inhabitants would be no more forceful than women (3:8-13). The prophet in ironic scorn calls for peace time activities such as drawing water and making brick (3:14), and in final taunt he compares the stability of Nineveh’s leaders to locusts that settle on a hedge on a cold day, but which depart in every direction when the sun comes out. He describes
    Assyria’s shepherds as slumbering, and her people as scattered with none to gather them (3:18), while everyone who hear of her fate are exultant (3:19).

    IS HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF TODAY?

    YOU BET!

    BUT THE END WILL COME SOON!

  158. @GP…

    You come across to me as a M10 fighter…

    Not much accuracy, but a lot of output….

  159. Georgie Porgie

    Having summarized the Biblical account, we will now state the historical facts which corroborate the Bible record in amazing fashion, and prove the efficacy of God in keeping His promises.

    Assyria, of which Nineveh was the capital, was a nation largely geared for aggressive war. Its atrocities were proverbial as the records and the art left by its kings make quite clear.

    Though it would conquer the world, it proved unable to rule it. Its victims lay prone under tyranny, but no national spirit breathed in the corpus. No peace organization of any proper kind existed to keep the whole together. Nineveh saw men and nations as tools to be exploited to gratify the lust of conquest and commercialism. Assyria existed to render no service to mankind.

    Assyria reached its peak under Ashurbanipal who, though most widely known for his library, was also its last great ruler. Following his death in 626 BC, the downfall came swiftly.

    Although Assyrian records are lacking for the last 25 years of Nineveh’s existence, classical sources and the Babylonian Chronicle reveal that from as early as 625 B.C., Cyaxares may have been attacking Nineveh.

    However, Nineveh fell before the onslaught of a combined thrust by Babylonians under Nabopolassar, by the Medes led by Cyaxares, and by the Scythians.

    The relations of Israel and Judah to Assyria may be described as “From Qarqar to Carchemish.” At Qarqar Ahab and his allies fought Shalmaneser III in 853 B.C., and Israel shortly there after became tributary; finally being destroyed in 722 B.C.

    Judah became tributary in 735 B.C.; was threatened by Sargon in 711 B.C. (cf Isaiah 20); and was pulverized by Sennacherib in 701 B.C., though she barely escaped through the destruction of Sennecharib’s army (2 Kings 18:13-19:36). Ninevah fell in 612 B C but a rump state at Haran continued until defeated by Nebuchadnezzar at Carchemish in 606) B.C.

    History reveals that according to Nahum’s prophecy, it came true that a sudden rise of the Tigris precipitated the destruction of Nineveh by carrying away a great part of the wall, and breaching the city’s defenses. This greatly assisted the attacking army of the Medes and Babylonians and the Scythians in its overthrow (Nahum 2:6).

    Nineveh had fortified herself with walls one hundred feet high and wide enough for four chariots to go abreast, and a circumference of eighty miles, adorned by hundreds of towers. A moat one hundred and forty feet wide and sixty feet deep surrounded the vast walls. Nineveh sat complacently thinking that nothing could harm her. But Nineveh had not reckoned with God. What are bricks and mortar to God!

    The mighty empire which Shalmaneser, Sargon, and Sennacherib had built up, the Lord threw down with a stroke, and that beyond all recovery. The inventions of civilization are powerless against heaven’s artillery.

    The attackers first razed all the surrounding fortresses (3:12), and then beleaguered the city (Nahum 3:13,15). The Ninevites proclaimed a fast of one hundred days to propitiate their gods (cf.Jonah 3:15), nevertheless the city fell (1:12). The last night of the besieged city was spent in drunken orgies (1:10; 2:5) in which the effeminate kind set the example. The king seeing the fate impending, burnt himself alive in his palace (3:15-19), and the city was, of course, subsequently plundered of its rich spoil (2:10-I4).

    The Medes and Babylonians completely destroyed Nineveh in 612 B.C. at the zenith of her power. So complete was its destruction, so deeply and effectively did God dig Nineveh’s grave that that all traces of the Assyrian Empire’s existence disappeared for ages and its site was unknown and all that remains today of the ancient city are two great mounds- Quyundjiq (Kouyunjik) and Nebi Yunus).

    The destruction was so complete that when Alexander the Great fought the battle of Arbela nearby in 331 B.C., he didn’t even know there had ever been a city there. It is said that Alexander the Great marched by, not knowing that a world empire was buried under his feet.

    When Xenophon and his 10,000 Greeks passed by the site some 200 years later they gave no indication of knowing that the capital had existed. He thought the mounds were the ruins of some Parthian city. When Napoleon encamped near its site, he, too, was unaware of it.

    So complete, indeed, were Nineveh’s ruins that Lucian wrote, “Nineveh is perished, and there is no trace left where once it was.” Gibbon records that as early as A.D. 62, “the city and even the ruins of the city, had long disappeared.” The traveler Niebuhr in 1766 passed over the site without knowing it. As Nineveh sowed, so did she reap.

    IS HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF TODAY?

    YOU BET!

    BUT THE END WILL COME SOON!

  160. Georgie Porgie

    Many scholars thought the references in the Bible were only mythical, and that no such city ever existed. However, in 1845,Layard confirmed the suspicions of the Englishman Claud James Rich, who in 1820 thought the mounds across the Tigris from Mosul were the ruins of Nineveh. Only since Layard and Botta identified the site in 1842 has the city begun to be recognized by the modern world. The ruins of the magnificent palaces of the Assyrian kings, and thousands of inscriptions were unearthed which give to us the story of Assyria as the Assyrians wrote it themselves. And so the remains of the magnificent capital, the wealthiest and most splendid city in the world of its day, has been discovered to lie across the Tigris River from Mostil, about 1500 yards from the river.

    Quyundjiq has been subjected to repeated excavation by Layard, Rassam, Place, and a host of
    others over the past 100 years. Today there is only waste on this impressive mound that is about
    one mile long and 650 yards wide and 90 feet high. Upon it has been built a water tank to give
    pressure to the water supply in the nearby village. Separated from Quyundjiq by a small river,
    the Khoser, Nebi Yunus, the other mound has a cemetery and a village on it that has made
    excavation impossible. The growing village slowly encroaches on the area once enclosed by
    Nineveh while fields and the tin cans of the city dump cover other sections. Nineveh certainly
    went to the dump, and the dogs, as we say today. Thus the Bible account has been confirmed.

    There are no direct Messianic prophecies in Nahum, in keeping with the basic Christological spirit of all prophecy, but Nahum sees Christ as the jealous God and avenger of His adversaries (1:2f). Similarly, Nahum is not cited or echoed in the New Testament, yet, imbedded in it, the Holy Spirit has implicitly predicated that every power must fall before the coming of the Kingdom of God. There seem to be no promises in the book of Nahum to be fulfilled in the New Testament. Nahum 1:7 also presents us with a promise of comfort and blessing. It is that God “knows those who trust or take refuge in Him,” and that He will be their “stronghold in the day of trouble”(Nahum 1:7). He assures God’s people then, and now that while God’s enemies are suffering the heat of his anger (1:6,8), that those who hold tenaciously to His promises will be safe in his stronghold and keeping (Jude 24;1 Corinthians 10:13). This concept reminds believers today of Paul’s comforting thought in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, where he states that “God hath not appointed us (i.e.His people) to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Nahum in warning of God’s impending judgment on Nineveh, essentially taught or promised God’s eventual judicial wrath against all wickedness worldwide. He thus mirrors the sentiments echoed by Jude 14-15 and 2 Peter 2:9. Psalm 103: 8 promises that the Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and plenteous in mercy, but while God’s patience is infinite in depth, it is not eternal in duration.

    Although a book of judgment, Nahum is careful to report in 1:3a that God is “slow to anger”. This is the same teaching as that expounded by Peter in 2 Peter 3:9 where we read that “The Lord is long suffering and not willing that any should perish.” Both Nahum and Peter therefore compare and declare God’s attribute of justice and inability to overlook and absolve wickedness, with his attributes of love, forgiveness and longsuffering.

    Later, the Holy Spirit through John teaches that God devised a way to make these characteristics of justice, and mercy (the desire and unwillingness not to see any perish) complementary. In 1 John 2:1-2;3:5; 4:9, we are taught that God in love, sent us Jesus The Righteous One to be the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, and the Advocate to those who would avail themselves of his mercy by confessing their sins. God is thus seen to be both “faithful” and “just” in so doing.

    The concept of God being “faithful” and “just” as stated in 1 John 1:9 is a fundamental one which is the basis of God’s relationship to us with respect to all of His promises. It is of major significance, because since the fall of man God’s forgiveness which was offered on the basis of a blood sacrifice as a substitute for sins ought to be considered the primary interest by sinful man. The greatest of all God’s promises and the major focus of Scripture is salvation by faith in the shed blood of Christ. In our daily dealings, we seek to do business with those who are trustworthy, and are often disappointed. However, in our dealings with God we can be sure that is always “faithful” and “just”.

    The word “faithful” means that “He is trustworthy and always acts consistently” no matter how many times we may have sinned. This does not mean we are to abuse the privilege of His forgiveness. The word “just” is a Greek word that means “to declare innocent or holy.” Only God has the right to declare one holy and He does it on the basis of the blood of Jesus Christ.

    For those who will confess their sins, there is in God perfect faithfulness and perfect justice in forgiving. God is faithful or true to his promise to forgive us as we turn to him – we can rely on him completely to do this.

    The Greek word translated “just” is the same word translated “ righteous” in 1 John 2:1. It means one who does what is right. God’s justice, the fact that God upholds righteousness and truth, means that he could not just set aside our sins, however, he forgives them as they are borne by His righteous, sinless Son. God is faithful to His own Son who has accomplished redemption for confessing sinners. God is just in forgiving because the cross of Christ has satisfied every requirement of justice. Any sinner can come to him on the grounds of this blessed verse and find eternal forgiveness.

    “In verse 9 there is one surprising word. Note that God is ‘faithful and just to forgive our sins.” Just is the word, not merciful. The forgiveness we have in Christ is based on God’s justice, on his righteousness. God forgives not as a man might, because he chooses to be tolerant or indulgent, but because in the completeness of his plan, forgiveness is consistent with his justice. Sinful men can believe in the forgiveness of their sins, not by convincing themselves that their sins are forgivable, but by their faith in the justice and consistency of God once for all revealed in Christ and His finished work! The concept is breathtaking. It is so far beyond anything man might imagine of God or goodness, that the heart can only bow in adoration before the clear vision of love revealed. In such light, how pathetically a human claim to sinless perfection appears. ” (c)

    The translation of 1 John 1:9 in Living Letters helps us to understand the concept we have just discussed. There we read “ But if we confess our sins to Him, He can be depended on to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every wrong. And it is perfectly proper for God to do this for us because Christ died to wash away our sins.

    God is faithful to His promise, and God is just, because Christ died for our sins and paid the penalty for us. This means that every time we sin, we must remember that we do so against a faithful loving God!” This is the New Testament fulfillment of the promises of God as taught in the complementary books of Jonah and Nahum.

    Nineveh represents nations that turn their backs from God. In our day, proud nations are staking everything upon the strength of man power and machines and there is an utter disregard of God. However, Nineveh was overthrown because of her sin (Nahum 3:1-7) and her great wealth and strength was not sufficient to save her (Nahum 3:8-19).

    We can be assured from the message of Nahum, that the individual or nation that deliberately and finally rejects God, deliberately and finally and fatally elects doom. We must beware of this!

  161. @Georgie Porgie: “BUT THE END WILL COME SOON!

    In your opinion Dr. Georgie Porgie…

    Is this “end” something we should look forward to and encourage?

    …or something we should fear and work to avoid?

    Sincere questions.

    Dare to answer sincerely?

  162. Georgie Porgie

    Final paragraphs on promises in Nahum

    The warning of Nahum can be summarized in the two following Scriptures:

    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (2 Peter 3:9,10).

    Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men id fully set in them to do evil. (Ecclesiastes 8:11).

    We can summarize the promises and lessons to be deduced from the book of Nahum thus:

    • God rules in the kingdoms of men (Romans 13:11). He uses nations to mete out judgment to other nations.
    • God is a stronghold in the time of trouble (Nahum. 1:7).
    • There are no strongholds secure from the vengeance of God (Obadiah1:3-4).
    • Nations, like individuals reap what they sow; “sin when it is full-grown bringeth forth death. (Galatians 6:7; James 1:15). Nahum is thus a book of great relevance in a world of dictators.
    • God’s patience will one day come to an end, and then mercy unheeded will finally bring
    judgment. Then the mills of God grind exceeding small for nations as well as for individuals.
    • When the Lord comes in judgment and wrath the physical world will tremble (Nahum 1:5).
    • Though God is slow to anger he will yet take vengeance on his adversaries.
    • Though the judgment of the Lord is long deferred, it is sure, and will be complete and final.
    • Even in times of impending judgment, God brings comfort to His people.
    • God is merciful, forgiving and patient (2 Peter 3:9), and sometimes temporarily remits His judgments. (The Ninivites’ repentance delayed the judgment of God for about a century). But God will eventually execute His impending and certain wrath against all sinners everywhere.
    • The judgment of God is just rather than sheer vengefulness.
    • Genuine repentance involves continuing in God’s word (John 8:31).
    • Mercy unheeded finally brings judgment.
    • All that God can do with a rebellious, defiant and apostate people and nation is to destroy them.
    • Though it seems that the world is bound and helpless in the grasp of the cruel, tyrannical enemy, Satan, and that the wicked are at the height of their glory, their downfall is very obvious and imminent. We must be comforted because our salvation is now nearer than when we first believed.(Romans 13:11).
    • At that time, just as God had nothing to say about Judah’s sin in Nahum, similarly God will have nothing to say about our sins, because, He has forgiven them, and because there will be no sin there (Revelation 21:27).
    • Just as the downfall of Nineveh occurred as predicted, totally and completely, so too will the predicted judgment of the world occur on time, and in God’s time.
    • The universality of God’s government will be universal, but its retributive character will be in subordination to His scheme of grace.

  163. Bonny Peppa

    J
    I trying hard not ta laff but um in wukkin………………murdahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, i luv um.(i cryinnnnnnn)

    Chris @ 3:44PM
    Murdahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I deadin. i luv um, sincerely. (ya wicked) :-)

  164. Georgie Porgie

    @Georgie Porgie: “BUT THE END WILL COME SOON!

    In your opinion Dr. Georgie Porgie…

    Is this “end” something we should look forward to and encourage?

    DEPENDS ON WHO “WE” ARE

    ALL TRUE BELIEVERS ARE LOOKING FOWARD TO THE RAPTURE AND THE MILLENNIUM AFTER THE TRIBULATION

    Such people look foward to it and say like John in Revelation, ” Even so come :Lord Jesus.”

    …or something we should fear and work to avoid?

    IF YOU ARE AN UNBELIEVER YOU OUGHT TO FEAR
    YOU CAN NOT DO ANYTHING TO AVOID THE COMING DISPENSATIONS NOR CAN YOU WORK TO AVOID BEING LEFT OUT SIMPLY BECAUSE SALVATION IS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH AND NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

    This is my sincere answer Has it helped SIr> I doubt it very much.

  165. @Dr. Georgie Porgie: “Has it helped SIr> I doubt it very much.

    Actually, it has helped greatly…

    So just for clarity…

    Iff (If and only If) I (or anyone else) agree(s) with the fairy tales you believe in, you say I (we) will join with those “saved” by the second coming of Christ after the near future war which you look forward to and are working towards.

    All others are doomed to an eternal future of fire and torture in hell.

    Do I understand your position accurately Dr. Georgie Porgie?

  166. Bonny Peppa

    ‘All true believers are looking forward to the rapture and the millineum after the tribulation’.

    Many will be greatly disappointed on that fateful day too because many will be called but only a very minute few will be chosen.A very minute few. Chosen to do what or chosen to go where, I’m curious. But…………………….’rejoice in the Lord always and again I say rejoice.

  167. I come from de country. One time we had a dog dat bark and bark and bark allllll night long and won’t let nobody sleep. The only solution wuz to hold he and grease he asshole wid vasaline. Yuh see, when he asshole grease, he can’t get a grip when he try to bark. Dat fix he.

    I guarantee that dis will work with Georgie Porgie too. My God, de man won’t shut up.

    Who volunteering to bell de cat…oops…grease de dog.

  168. Bonny Peppa

    Anon
    ya got de green-tea comin thru ma nostrils. Ya got ma cryinnnnnnnnnnn. Dah had a dog like dah dat whun leh me sleep pun a nite needa and I in grease he pooch, I gih he a nice sirloin steak wid am, am, ammmmmmm, wah now? I khan rememba wid wah now but I kno dat I sleep like a baby evry nite since den and he still sleeping all like now too.
    urrrrrrrrr, urrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, uuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, rufffffffff, ruffffffffffffffffffffffff, urrrrrrrrr

  169. Georgie Porgie

    AS we continue to expose the issues concerning What the Bible really says about the Sons of Abraham in relation to the end times, i quote from my 2001 study of Zephaniah entitled PROMISES IN ZEPHANIAH.

    In keeping with the warnings of cursing for disobedience in Deuteronomy 28, the central theme is that of judgment or the coming of the day of the Lord. Hodgkin calls the book of Zephaniah “a survey of the universal government of Jehovah, His judgment of the whole earth,” and states that “ Zephaniah’s prophecy is marked by the emphasis he lays upon the Day of the Lord”, (1) which is found more times in Zephaniah than any other book.( 1:7,8,14,18; 2:2,3).

    The key words of Zephaniah’s prophecy are indeed “day of the Lord,” “that day,” the day,” which combined occurs some 23 times in this short book. These phrases are the focal point and major theme of Zephaniah’s message. This concept which involves two distinct aspects; judgment followed by blessing, describes a time when God will come to His people and in the process of delivering them, also destroy evil.

    Zephaniah Chapter three clearly records these two distinct aspects of this awesome day. After Israel repents and returns to the Lord, they will be restored under the righteous rule of Messiah.

    It is apparent that Zephaniah, like Joel, had both “local” aspects in view of this coming Day of God’s presence among them (with the judgment of Assyria and Babylon), in addition to seeing that these judgments/deliverances mirrored, and foreshadowed, the ultimate deliverance and judgment which would come in the eschaton.

    “On this day, the nearness and severity of which are emphasized, the Lord would come as a mighty and just warrior-judge to punish the whole world, including Judah. Through this purifying judgment the nations would become genuine worshippers of the one true God.

    The judgment of the Lord’s Day would also purge God’s covenant people and their capital city, Jerusalem. A faithful remnant, the nucleus of the purified city and rejoice in the Lord’s deliverance and protections.” (2)

    I think the main point of the book is 2:3, “Seek the Lord all you humble of the land, who do his commands; seek righteousness, seek humility.” The rest of the book is mainly made up of warnings that judgment is coming upon the proud and promises that the humble and righteous who seek refuge in the Lord will be saved (3:12,13).

    So there are three things: commands, warnings and promises. Obedience to the command in 2:3 is Zephaniah’s main goal, and the warnings and promises are incentives for the people to repent and obey.” (4) “The central and most emphatic portion of the book is the call for repentance (2:1-3). The promise of salvation at the end of the book (3:9-20), also has particular force.” (4a)

    The fulfilled predictions in Zephaniah are presented in the first two chapters and the unfulfilled in the last chapter. In our attempt to gather the promises from the book of Zephaniah we will first attempt to summarize, and analyze and briefly expose its contents. Chapter one announces coming judgment on Judah and Jerusalem in the words “I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. (1:4)”

    As in Joel 2:1-2 this impending judgment is called the “day of the Lord (1:7,14-15). It is described vividly in Verses 14 and 15 thus: “The great day of the Lord is near and hastening fast; the sound of the day of the Lord is bitter, the mighty man cries aloud there. A day of wrath is that day, a day of distress and anguish, a day of ruin and devastation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness.”

    That this is a very good description of the tribulation period as described in Revelation, is very well explained by Scofield who posits that “in predictive prophecy such as Zephaniah’s portrayal of the day of the Lord, the near and far are often merged. From a distance a great mountain range appears as a single barrier against the sky, although it actually comprises many foothills and intermediate summits separated by extensive valleys from the ultimate heights. So Zephaniah, seeing in the impending fall of Jerusalem the nearest aspect of the day of the Lord, can say that it is “at hand”(v7) and “near”(v 14); whereas, towering in the distant future of unfulfilled prophecy, the final day of the Lord awaits the return of Christ in glory. It is then that all earth-judgment will culminate, to be followed by the restoration and blessing of Israel.” (5)

    `In the process of warning about and declaring God’s impending judgment on Judah, Zephaniah exposes and catalogs in both chapter one and in 3:1-7, the sins which has kindled God’s wrath against Judah. We read in 1:4, “I will cut off the remnant of Baal.” Manasseh had built altars and high places to this foreign god in the temple (2 Kings 21:3,5,7). Although Josiah had torn them down during his reform effort there remained a remnant of Baal worshipers, which God was going to cut off in the day of the Lord, which was immediately impending in the form of the invasion of Judah by Babylon.

    We observe next in 1:5 that the Judeans were also guilty of idolatry by worshiping the hosts of heaven and “exchanging the glory of God for the derived glory of created things”(2 Kings 23:12; Jeremiah 19:13; Romans 1:23), and by trying to serve two masters (which Jesus later also condemned in Matthew 6:24;Luke 16:13). This set of idolaters were swearing both by the Lord, and by Milcom (or Molech) the national god of the Ammonites. This was of course in contravention to the first commandment (Exodus 20:3). God’s purpose is to show that he alone is God and there is none else (Joel 2:27) and that, therefore, the people should return to him with all their heart (Joel 2:12). History teaches that the Babylonian captivity cured the Jews of idolatry; so God’s promise to punish this sin was kept.
    In Verse 6 backsliders and those who failed to trust God are indicted, and so are the princes, the kings children and all those that are clothed with strange apparel (which probably means those who had embraced idolatrous and pagan customs and pagan) (1:8). All of these sinners were condemned for judgment in 1:7.
    Also cataloged in chapter one are Judean sinners who trusted in riches (1:18). Verse 9 also describes the servants of the rich who zealously filled their master’s houses through violence and fraud. Verse 11 predicts that all these who were afflicted by the love of money would be cut off. It is noteworthy that the love of money is here associated with the same sins of pride arrogance, self-sufficiency and idolatry which are all also rampant in contemporary civilization. Believers of our era are warned by Paul “to flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness (1 Timothy 6:11) “to flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.” Readers are urged to pay diligent heed to the precepts in l Timothy 6: 5-11. The prediction concerning the group of defaulters described in 1:13,17,18, will be discussed below in our treatment of the judgment of the sins described in Zephaniah generally.
    .
    Verse 12 refers to those who have grown hard and calloused in their abundance and say, “The Lord will not do good nor will he do ill.” It is interesting to note that 2 Peter 3 discusses this sort of unbeliever, who is deluded by the philosophy of uniformitarianism which has gripped both the scientific world and the scholastic world for a long time. Peter’s arguments are relevant to our study of the promises from Zephaniah. Zephaniah’s contemporaries were denying the possibility of divine intervention in the impending judgment of the soon approaching day of the Lord concomitant with the Babylonian captivity; and Peter is refuting arguments with respect to the denial of God’s impending judgment at the ultimate day of the Lord which is associated with a supernatural reappearance of Jesus at the second advent. In keeping with the mandate of this study to explain the promises of the Old Testament relative to New Testament teaching and fulfillment, we will delve very deeply via a detailed dissection of this deceptive dogma at the end of this chapter.

  170. Georgie Porgie

    The unfulfilled predictions in Zephaniah are presented in the last chapter from 3:8-20, where the prophet pronounces several significant end time promises of judgment followed by Israel’s restoration and the joy of God’s people and kingdom blessing under Messiah.

    These end time promises describe the glorious future of the godly. God’s justice is seen to be (1) upon the former gentile enemies of God who with all the nations will worship God in the millennium (3:9); (2) upon the land of God (Judah) in which Israel will dwell in peace (3:13); and (3) upon the city of God, Jerusalem, which will be filled with singing with God himself leading the songs (3:14-15,17.)

    It must be noted that though the amazing promises of this section relate most directly to the converted and restored people of Israel (v. 10), that the blessings promised flow out beyond the bounds of Israel and include us who through faith in Christ become Abraham’s seed and heirs of the promise as taught in Galatians 3:29.

    Verse 8 is an assurance that we can expect the fulfillment of all God’s promises and threatenings, because of His immutability and faithfulness in keeping His promises (Hebrews 6:17-18; 13: 8 etc.

    In addition, Zephaniah agrees with Joel, and Zechariah concerning the gathering of the gentile nations at the end of this age to pour out his indignation and fierce anger at Armageddon for attacking Jerusalem (Zechariah 10:3; 12:12; 14:3; Isaiah10:27; Revelation19:17).

    In the primary interpretation of this verse God promised the Jews that despite the fact that all was hopeless from the human standpoint with respect to the widespread and deeply imbedded evil in Jerusalem that was incorrigible because of the corruption and faithlessness of its leaders, that he would intervene with blessing following the judgment of the Babylonian captivity.

    In addition, according to the law of double mention God also promised a gleam of hope for the end times when the situation in Jerusalem will also be hopeless from the human standpoint. God promises that at that time, when they see the armies of the nations gathering upon the city of Jerusalem with evil intentions, that it is God who has summoned them there so that He may destroy them by pouring out his indignation, the heat of His anger, and the fire of His jealous wrath.

    The nations will gather with evil intentions against Jerusalem, but God will use this rally for good to save His people alive as was the case in Genesis 50: 20.

    In verse 9 we see the converted Jews, as well as the spared and sifted remnant of the Gentile nations converted to God and serving him with a ready will, and with one consent; not one unbeliever being found among them. This indicates that God intends to save more than just Jews, and hints at the international character of the millennial era: “Yea, at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech that all of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him with one accord.”

    “The prophet is not [necessarily] foretelling a universal language, as though to reverse the consequences of Babel, but the conversion of the nations, a spiritual transformation readily discernable in their purified speech.” (9)
    T
    he pure language, may here mean the form of religious worship. They had been before idolaters: now God promises to restore his pure worship among them. The word has certainly this meaning in Psalm 81: 6; where, as God is the speaker, the words should rendered, “I heard a religious confession, which I approved not.” (See Isaiah 29:18; Hosea 19:3; and Joel 2:28, where a similar promise is found).

    The Jews, returned to their own land from different parts of the world where they were scattered will make the necessary offerings as they acknowledge God’s mercy in sending them the Messiah to bless them, by turning every one of them away from their iniquities. This verse speaks mainly of the second such gathering at the end time.

    In other words things are set up for the next event on God’s calendar for the end times to occur.

  171. Georgie Porgie

    Verses 11-18 pictures the cleansed rejoicing nation of Israel appears, dwelling in their own land. The redeemed who will experience the fulfillment of the promises of 3:14-17 are the ones who obeyed the threefold call back in 2:3: “Seek the Lord … seek righteousness, seek humility.”

    Therefore, humility which takes refuge in God (or as we would say today, humility which takes refuge in the death of Jesus Christ for our sins) is not only the way of escape from divine wrath, it is even more the way of entrance into divine joy in the millennial kingdom.

    Repentant Israel will not be ashamed in the eschaton, because their punishment would have ceased because God will pardon their sin by which they had rebelled against Him.

    At that time God will remove from their midst the proudly exultant ones, such as the rebellious leaders of Zephaniah’s time and the wicked Jewish priests and scribes who blasphemed Christ and would not come under his yoke.

    God will replace the proud leaders by those who are humble and lowly and who seek refuge in the name of the Lord- they will become humble and lowly because they have been conquered by the sovereign grace of God, and will then be following Him who is meek and lowly in heart in order to obtain rest for their souls (Matthew 11:28-30).

    Thus even in the midst of His judgments, God would preserve Himself a people who would remain faithful to His cause, and trust only in His name. The remnant of Israel in the end time will not engage in any iniquity, lying or deceit.

    Verse 14 is both a gracious prophetic promise of the Jews restoration from captivity, and also of their conversion to God through Christ at His second advent.

    This verse teaches that rejoicing and exulting with all the heart is what the humble and lowly will do for all eternity (Revelation 4:4-11), for at the end time we too will then fully appreciate that God kept his promise to us through the Abrahamic Covenant.

    We are told in Revelation 21:3, “Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them [us], and they [we] shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them [us], and be their [our] God.”

    “The closing verses, from 14 on, constitute a command to the redeemed in Zion to break into praise to the Lord in song for the redemption He has brought about. This is the new order that follows the darkness, the gloom, and the slaughter. It is what God has been aiming at all along, that He might bring song instead of sorrow, service instead of selfishness, security instead of slavery.

    The prophet’s picture is one of great beauty and glory. He describes the scene thus: “The Lord, your God, is in your midst, a warrior who gives victory; he will rejoice over you with gladness, he will renew you in his love; he will exult over you with loud singing as on a day of festival” (3:17).

    It is the song of the redeemed in which the Lord Himself is present to lead them in glorious exultation. “When God deals a death stroke against the flesh within us and brings us through the painful judgment of saying no to the ego and the self life, there follows a time of singing and of joy. That is the reason God takes us through the pain and the darkness.

    What we see to be true of the individual life today will ultimately be true on the whole wide canvas of history as God brings the evil of humanity to an end and ushers in the day of joy and gladness.” (10)

  172. Georgie Porgie

    Verses 15-20 give the reasons why the Jews can rejoice. First verse 15 states that the Lord would remove every enemy and opponent and hindrance to their joy. The judgment that had been directed against them is turned away – there would be no more condemnation. This promise reminds us of that in Romans 8:1.

    In addition, in the phrase “The king of Israel, the Lord, is in their midst:” we note a repetition of God’s promise to the Patriarchs, but added to it is the promise “ thou shalt not see evil any more” That this promise will be ultimately fulfilled is gloriously stated in Revelation 21:4, which says in effect “NO MORE DEATH, OR SORROW, OR CRYING, OR PAIN- THAT IS ALL FINISHED!” We believe it, but we can not fully comprehend this, for the converse is all we know. But what a pleasant prospect!

    It is noteworthy that the title “King of Israel” in referring to God is found only twice in the Bible; in Zephaniah 3:15 and centuries later in John 1:49 when Nathanael thus referred to Jesus. The Jews have never had a king since the death of Zedekiah, and never shall have one till they have the King Messiah to reign among them. This promise refers to that event.

    Verse 16 is a command that because there would be no more captivities or national afflictions, the Jews should not be slack in the rebuilding of the temple of God, after the return from Babylon; and, secondly, to their diligence and zeal in the worship and service of God in the eschaton. Church.

    The old marriage covenant between God and Israel is depicted in verse 17 as gloriously restored (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:19): the husband is rejoicing in His wife, resting in His love and joying over her with singing. The conversion of the Jews will be a subject of peculiar delight and exultation to God himself! There will be more than ordinary Joy in heaven, when the Jews return to God through Christ.

    The phrase “The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty” may be translated “The self-existent and eternal Being, who is in covenant with you.” This is the character of God in reference to the Jews when standing in the nearest relation to them. He is the Mighty Prevailing One, the all- conquering Hero. This is the same character which is given to Christ (Isaiah 9:6).

    “His name shall be called, the prevailing Almighty God.” He will save and deliver thee from all the power from all the guilt, and from all the pollution of thy sins; and when thus saved “he will rejoice over thee with joy,” with peculiar gladness

    Zephaniah predicts that God will someday “rest” again after completing his great work of redemption as he once did after his work in creation (Compare 3:7 with Genesis 2: 2-3). Gray interprets “rest” as “be silent” and suggests “that this silence of God towards his people is no longer the silence arising from forbearance in order to punish at the end ( Psalm 50:21) but because He has nothing more to reprehend. (11) “He will rest in his love,” may also mean that God will renew his love, to the Jews and exhibit the same love to them that he did of old to the Patriarchs.

  173. Georgie Porgie

    In verses 19- 20 the restored people are predicted to be a blessing in the whole earth as foretold in the Abrahamic covenant and the millennial Psalms. God promised in verse 19 that at that time that he would punish those who had persecuted Judah.

    Though it showed much malignity and baseness of mind to afflict or reproach those who were lying under the chastising hand of God, this was the conduct of the Edomites, Moabites, and Ammonites during the Jew’s adversity. The Lord severely punished them for it according to the precept in the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12:3). In the end times God will also punish the prevailing anti-Semitism at Armageddon.

    I wilt save her that halteth and gather her that was driven out by captivity probably refers to God renewing the covenant with the Jews, who were considered as an unfaithful spouse divorced by her husband. God promises to bring her back to His house and bestow on them praise and fame in every land. They shall become a great, a good, and a useful people, and will no longer be a proverb of reproach, as they are considered today in the countries where they sojourn.

    At the end of the seventy years of the Babylonian captivity God kept his promised to bring the Jews to their homeland. This restoration was a type of their redemption from sin and iniquity to be ultimately fulfilled in the millennium (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12; 56:8; Ezekiel 28:25; 34:13; 37:21; Amos 9:14).

    At this time, and at this only, will they have a name and praise among all the people of the earth. On their conversion to Christianity, they will become as eminent as they ever were in the most illustrious days of their history. Zephaniah 3:20 is thus the fulfillment of Israel’s destiny as stated in Deuteronomy 26:19.

    Let us summarize the main lessons and promises in Zephaniah.

    • Though Zephaniah gave us a very long list of his ancestors, yet little concerning him is known. God’s messengers must hide behind God’s message.

    • God will punish idolaters of all kinds, and he knows each one of them (1:2-3). ****
    • God will utterly consume all things, and punish sinners (Zephaniah 1:3***; 2 Peter 2:4-10; 2 Peter 3:10). Although many don’t want to believe this, the facts are that just as God destroyed the world that was by water, so too will he destroy the world that is, by fire as indicated in 2 Peter3. The world that will be, will never be destroyed.

    • In the imminent day of the Lord all defendants will be silent before the Lord God (1.7), because they will have no adequate excuse or defense. Study of the book of Revelation reveals that God has already made all the necessary arrangements for this judgment and chosen the players in this drama.

    • God will one day punish those who say in their hearts, ‘The LORD will not do good or evil!”(1:12.) Those who are careless, satisfied with the temporal goods of this life; who trust in and depend on their wealth, and are ungodly; who, while they acknowledge that there is a God, but like the Aristotelians, think that he is so supremely happy in the contemplation of his own excellences, that he feels it beneath his dignity to concern himself with the affairs of mortals to judge them for their sins, will be surprised that he does, just as he has in the past The day of the Lord”, which is quickly approaching will be the last great judgment of God upon earth; it will be a time of such great and universal trouble that there will be nothing comparable to it in all the annals of history. The day of the Lord is described as a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of destruction and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness. The tribulation period that follows the rapture is indeed most imminent (1:15-18).
    • At that time neither the sinner’s silver nor his gold will be able to deliver him on the day of the wrath of the Lord” (1:17,18).
    • Just as the details of destruction described was clearly fulfilled at the Babylonian invasion, (chapter1) so too in “the day of the Lord”, God will bring to pass all of his promises in the same minute detail. Just as Judah and her enemies were punished as predicted, (2: 1-9) God will similarly punish the ungodly in the ultimate day of the Lord (Jude 14-15). This series of judgments is a warning that there is no escape when the day of the Lord comes.
    • All those who repent and seek the Lord, righteousness, humility, and obey his commands will thereby avoid God’s judgment, and be sheltered from danger on the day of the wrath of the Lord, in accordance of the promise of 2 Chronicles 7:14, “If my people who are called by my name humble themselves and pray and seek my face, and turn from, their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and forgive their sin and heal their land.”
    • Just as Judah’s enemies found escape impossible in the day of the Lord when the Babylonians wreaked havoc on these nations, similarly there will be no escape for those who are not hidden in the hands of Jesus or the heavenly Father as taught in John10: 28-29.
    • God is the only refuge from the storms and tempests of this life (2:3).
    • God is always in the midst of His people as he promised the Patriarchs.
    • God is just and will adjudicate fairly-He sees, records, and will punish all wickedness. “Not a day passes but we see instances of his goodness to righteous men, and of his vengeance on the wicked.”
    • Messiah is presented as the Righteous One within the nation of Israel and the One who will also be their King.
    • God will gather the gentile nations at the end of this age to pour out his indignation and fierce anger at Armageddon for attacking Jerusalem (Revelation19:17; Zechariah 10:3; 12:12; 14:3; Isaiah10: 27). The former gentile enemies of God will then worship God in the millennium (Zephaniah 3:9).
    • Although the amazing promises of the millennium will relate most directly to the converted and restored people of Israel (v. 10), the blessings promised will flow out beyond the bounds of Israel and include us who through faith in Christ become Abraham’s seed and heirs of the promise as taught in Galatians 3:29.
    • In the future day of the Lord, God will judge Judah, Jerusalem and the Gentiles. The later will gather with evil intentions against Jerusalem, but God will use this rally, which he has in effect summoned, to pour out his indignation, the heat of His anger, and the fire of His jealous wrath upon them, and save His people alive. Eventually, the spared and sifted remnant of the Gentile nations who were former gentile enemies of God, but now converted to Him and serving Him with a ready will, shall worship God in the millennium (3:9); Israel will dwell in peace (3:13); and Jerusalem will be filled with singing with God himself leading the songs (3:14-15,17.) This indicates that God intends to save more than just Jews. At that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech that all of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him with one accord.”
    • Humility which takes refuge in God (or as we would say today, humility which takes refuge in the death of Jesus Christ for our sins) is not only the way of escape from divine wrath, it is even more the way of entrance into divine joy in the millennial kingdom.
    • Even in the midst of His judgments, God will preserve Himself a people who would remain faithful to His cause, and trust only in His name. The remnant of Israel in the end time will not engage in any iniquity, lying or deceit.
    • The conversion of the Jews will be a subject of peculiar delight and exultation to God himself! There will be more than ordinary Joy in heaven, when the Jews return to God through Christ.
    • God can help even in cases that are hopeless from the human standpoint.
    • God is not unrighteous for taking vengeance as described in the book of Zephaniah-this is corroborated by the teaching of Romans 3:3,5.
    • The Lord severely punished the nations for their anti-Semitism in the past history of Israel. The historical record demonstrates that Edom, Babylon, and Assyria were all decimated for their evil to Israel, according to the promise in the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12:3). In the end times God will also punish the prevailing anti-Semitism at Armageddon.
    • At the end of the seventy years of the Babylonian captivity God kept his promised to bring the Jews to their homeland. This restoration was a type of their redemption from sin and iniquity to be ultimately fulfilled in the millennium (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12; 56:8; Ezekiel 28:25; 34:13; 37:21; Amos 9:14).
    • In Zephaniah 3:12,13, the prophet depicts the character of those who will be redeemed as “humble and lowly” since they were conquered by the sovereign grace of God.
    • In verses Zephaniah 3:19- 20 the restored people are predicted to be a blessing in the whole earth as foretold in the Abrahamic covenant and the millennial Psalms.

  174. Bonny Peppa

    Anon
    He hear you but he won’t tek heed so I gun volunteer ta grease de dog pooch, man. stupsee
    He reallly tink dat people gun read all dat shoite fa true doe? He gotta be moe foolish than he look.

    My Dream box ded, my dream box ded, he ded,he ded, he dedddddddddd. Aw-rite, doan cry, doan cry.

    MADD murdahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh fa Crop Ova2010.

  175. GP, Once again, you’ve done an excellent job at presenting the Biblical prophetic structure, confirmed over and over again by historical veracity, i.e., archeaological findings and so on, which the die-hard *scoffers* simply cannot refute.

    You have systematically given God’s Word on the Abrahamic aspect of the unfolding of this *Unconditional* Covenant, cemented on the logical principle, that:

    The structure of JUSTIFICATION, (warranted credible truth) in defending any propisitional TRUTH CLAIM, is *COHERENCE* which IS our sole criteria for TRUTH.

    GP, You have coherently done this from God’s Word.
    Amen and AMEN!!!

  176. Anon (the original one)

    Yes Zoe
    It is very clear that Dr GP is a student of God’s Word and understands exactly what he is talking about.

    He has certainly helped me to understand more of the book of Nahum especially.

    In addition he has clearly indicated from several of the so called Minor Prophets how the Sons of Abraham will fare in latter days at the end times.

    He has also stuck on point while debating and debunking the nonsense presented by the so called scholar who is clearly out of his depth.

  177. @All…

    If I may please ask a very simple question…

    Why are those who claim to be so very right…

    …too cowardice to stand behind their words?

  178. Anon (the original one)

    To all

    Why does this jackass never have anything of substance to bring to the table.

    Why does he not shut up if he does not know what to say.

    Does he not know that NO ONE THROWS STONES AT TREES THAT ARE NOT LADEN WITH GOOD FRUIT.

  179. CHECK OUT THE RESEARCH – IT MAKES FOR FASCINATING READING…

    AND THEN YOU DECIDE FOR YOURSELF…

    AS IS SAID = EVERY MAN MUST BE PERSUADED FOR HIMSELF IRRESPECTIVE OF THE CONSENSUS…

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

  180. Anon (the original one)

    When Terrence has done all that he can to show how much he hates Jews or how evil Jews are, and when he has sucessfully whipped up hate against Jews, how will this change what the OT prophets predict about the Jews in the end times.

    Terrence you are supposed to be some scholar, right?

    You started your thread with a title WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY…………………….. I notice that Dr GP quotes the Bible, but you bring videos. I and others are interested in WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. Can you get back there Mr? I doubt it.

  181. So GP, do you expect Terence to refer to the bible for information on what happened in Gaza last year? with pictures?

    Do you not think that we can use our own judgment of right and wrong? of love and hate?

  182. Georgie Porgie

    BT

    You seem to think that I am a fool.

    But if I start a thread on “What the Bible Really Says About The Sons Of Abraham ” I would continue to say what the Bible says about the Children of Abraham.

    Since his lousy article with which he started this thread and for which you acclaimed him a bar raiser, he has been hemming and hawing and talking nonsense, which you some how seem to think I should listen to.

    This I find hilarious when they are REAL Theologians around and real eschatologists to whom one can listen

    GP does not expect Terence to refer to the bible for information on anything, because he is hopeless in interpreting WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS ABOUT THE SONS OF ABRAHAM.

    This was demonstrated in his first post, and he has done nothing since then to impress me that he does.

    Re Do you not think that we can use our own judgment of right and wrong? of love and hate?

    I am really not sure about the above. Honestly.

    What I percieve is that there is no love for Jews and a great deal of hatred. This is clearly expressed by the BU comnmentors. But this has been prophesied, so I accept that this will be so.

    As I have said before, my interest is to see how this will all play out, and how will the Word of God prove to be as accurate as it has been in the past. I think it is reasonable for me to feel this way, and that I have the right to concentrate on that which interests me..

  183. @ BUSH TEA

    “do you expect Terence to refer to the bible for information on what happened in Gaza last year? with pictures? Do you not think that we can use our own judgment of right and wrong? of love and hate?

    There are some 38,000 christian denominations in the world…

    With some 2 billion people who claim to adhere to the Bible and call themselves christian of one sort or another….

    33% of the world’s population is considered to be Christian of some kind practicing FAITH* according to how they have been indoctrinated….

    In America, 75% of the populace consider themselves christians of sorts…

    Of the approximate 2 billion Christians in the world today, 648 million (11% of the world’s population) are Evangelicals or Bible “THUMPING” so-called believing Christians….

    Evangelicals have grown from a mere 3 million in the 1500′s, to 648 million worldwide, with 54% of them being people of color…(GO FIGURE)…

    In so-called “HEATHEN” countries, there are some 20,500 permanent full-time Christian workers and 10,200 foreign missionaries…

    In so-called christian countries, there are some 1.31 million permanent full-time Christian workers…

    In these said christian countries, there are some 306,000 foreign missionaries who go to other supposed Christian lands to proselytize…

    In these so-called christian countries there are some 4.19 million permanent full-time Christian Bible workers (95%) of whom work in these countries…

    Some 83 million Bibles are distributed around the world every year…(that’s good book sales)…LOL

    Plus in print or on demand, there are some 6 million so-called christian books available to buy (mine’s included)…LOL

    GOD BLESS ‘EM – but there are on average of 171,000 Christians martyrs worldwide murdered for the sake of the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST* per year…(some folks can’t even handle a little controversy far less)…

    So BT, my point is my dear Brother,(and forgive my research rant) – if we as so-called CHRISTIANS can’t EVEN* agree on even the basics – do you think I am particular bothered about folks who are frankly clueless???

    Haven’t even been in the firing line; have nothing to show for their so-called gallantry; flip & flop at the twitch of a button; know nothing of “TRUE” Christian LOVE* and are basically, no different to the Scribes & Pharisees of Jesus’ day or should I say like the folks who currently occupy a geographical place called Israel when the “TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD”* & “THE NEW JERUSALEM” are concepts so far removed from any of us humans that to be constantly dribbling on and whining about EXEGESIS & HERMENEUTICS is something I leave to my 4 year old grandson…

    I have read enough books and in the process, write too many as it is…

    Who needs all this foolishness!!!

    P.S. More videos coming down the pike… YOU DECIDE!!!

  184. @ BUSH TEA

    “BUSHMAN” – some historical facts:

    But first a PROVERB -

    “”What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor.”

    JEWS AND THE BLACK HOLOCAUST

    Overwhelming Evidence -

    The history that the old “Black-Jewish Coalition” clumsily avoids is the entire three century history of Jewish presence in South America and the Caribbean. But other highly acclaimed Jewish scholars have not been so blind:

    •Lee M. Friedman, a one-time president of the American Jewish Historical Society, wrote that in Brazil, where most of the Africans actually went, “the bulk of the slave trade was in the hands of Jewish settlers.”

    •Marcus Arkin wrote that the Jews of Suriname used “many thousands” of Black slaves.

    •Herbert I. Bloom wrote that “the slave trade was one of the most important Jewish activities here (in Suriname) as elsewhere in the colonies.” He even published a 1707 list of Jewish buyers by name with the number of Black humans they purchased.

    •Cecil Roth, writer of 30 books and hundreds of articles on Jewish history, wrote that the slave revolts in parts of South America “were largely directed against [Jews] as being the greatest slave-holders of the region.”

    •”I gather,” wrote Jewish scholar Wilfred Samuels, “that the Jews [of Barbados] made a good deal of their money by purchasing and hiring out negroes…”

    •According to the Jewish historians, all Barbadian Jews owned slaves – even the rabbi had “the enjoyment of his own two negro attendants.”

    •In Curaçao which was a major slave trading depot, Isaac and Susan Emmanuel report that “the shipping business was mainly a Jewish enterprise.”

    •Says yet another Jewish writer of the Jews of Curaçao, “Almost every Jew bought from one to nine slaves for his personal use or for eventual resale.”

    •Seymour B. Liebman in his New World Jewry, made it clear that “[t]he ships were not only owned by Jews, but were manned by Jewish crews and sailed under the command of Jewish captains.”

    •Moshe Kahan stated bluntly that in 1653-1658, ” Jewish-Marrano merchants were in control of the Spanish and Portuguese trade, were almost in control of the Levantine trade…were interested in the Dutch East and West Indian companies, were heavily involved in shipping; and, most important, had at their disposal large amounts of capital.”

    •In Brazil, where most of our kidnapped ancestors were sent, Jewish scholar Arnold Wiznitzer is most explicit about Jewish involvement:

    (Cited from “Jews and the Black Holocaust”)…

    YOU DECIDE!!!

  185. PALESTINIANS SHOULDN’T WORRY ABOUT THEIR JEWISH BROTHERS SIBLING RIVALRY – THEY ARE DOING A GOOD ENOUGH JOB FIGHTING AMONGST THEMSELVES…. LOL

  186. Chosen Brothers & Bullwackie’s
    All Stars – Child Of Slave

    June 17, 2010 at 12:45 pm · Filed under Bullwackies,

  187. Georgie Porgie

    Question
    What has this got to do with WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT THE SONS OF ABRAHAM
    That is the topic of discussion.

    You started the topic not me.

    Neither you or your 4 year old grandson knows nothing about EXEGESIS & HERMENEUTICS

    In the thread on the same subject you supported by opening article man. Go back and see who is flip flopping

    I am constant and consistent Mr scholar and author and bar raiser.

    How you praise and promote your self. I am nothing man just a little doctor who teaches some Basic Sciences and Bible, but I have you posting all sorts of videos none of which I have watched, and you are running here and there and everywhere.

    But apart from telling us a bit about a Sunday School lesson long learned from Genesis 25 and a few trivia other issues well understood (as I wrote my DMin thesis on Genesis having researched the OT in the process to follow up on the promises) what more have you said about the sons of Abraham?

    That David ‘s great grand mother was a Moabitess? And a mixed multitude accompanied Israel to the promise land etc. All basic general knowledge for cursory Bible readers.

    Every story has a beginning (and I remind you that Hagar was NOT Abraham’s first wife or his wife at all) and a story has an end.

    I have taken the time since you are not honest enough or do not realize that the end of the story concerning Israel is recorded in the 16 prophetic books.

    Basically at the end of all the 16 prophetic books. the prophetic gives a word about the future of Israel in the Millennial kingdom.

    Send your videos for the benefit of those who do not read or know the word of God. Spread your hate, and then be incensed that despite it all, ISRAEL continues to survive in the land of promise since 1948 against seeminly surmountable odds..

    Get angry again and rant and rave and send whole movies when the next time some folk come up against Israel thier God helps them to prevail once more.

    And have a heart attack when Jesus comes to win the battle of Armageddon and defeat their foes for good.

    You think all the nasty things you are saying affect me. People throw stones in fruitful trees man.

    I was not given my scholarship, nor any of my degrees. And as unaccomplished as you think I am I HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORD OF GOD.

    And you have said very little about WHAT DOES THE BIBLE (noyt your videos) SAY ABOUT THE SONS OF ABRAHAM

    So run in again and BOWL AT THE STUMPS THAT YOU SET UP, oh thou great author and raiser of the bar!

  188. But looka muh crosses fuh muh nuh!!
    …..what a cockroach like BT doing at this fowlcock party doh….???

    @ GP
    But if I start a thread on “What the Bible Really Says About The Sons Of Abraham ” I would continue to say what the Bible says about the Children of Abraham.
    *********************************************************************************************
    Man cuhdear GP, what does it matter what title is given to a thread? obviously a contributor has to respond based on the trend of the discussion…..
    Are you some kind of academic purist now? Lighten up, this is an informal blog that caters to all types.

    In any case, Bush Tea knows full well that both you and Zoe (I won’t speak for Dick) understand full well where Terence, Technician, BT, and everyone else are coming from…

    It is extremely difficult for anyone to understand how a people who claim to be God’s specially chosen can demonstrate all the characteristics that are CONTRARY to those expounded by the son of God himself.

    In the case of the Jews, it is even more distressful – given their recent, much vaunted history with the NAZIS- to conceive how they can now be seen to demonstrate even more dastardly behaviors towards Palestinians -including women, children.

    You seem to be saying that since they were ‘chosen’ they can now ‘do as they like’, and they will none the less be protected.

    Let me tell you this GP…

    This is exactly what we see with those individuals who are supposed to be Christians in the world.
    They claim that they have been either “called” or “chosen” as christians and thus will receive supernatural protection (for example, you have your chops out for your expected ‘Rapture’). In the meantime, their lives are indistinguishable from those who are either not called, not chosen or (I could not resist this… LOL) Not Saved. In fact, many of these persons display characteristics that are even more unrighteous than the ‘gentiles’.

    This is the point that the bushman makes when I insist that anyone can talk, or write eloquently, but in the final analysis, it is the fruit that they produce which matters if we are seeking to judge their character.
    Did Jesus not direct that the tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be cut down and cast into the fire…?

    The chosen people of this world were specifically selected to be ‘as the salt of the earth’ – to be examples of how the spiritual laws if God works and to exemplify the power of LOVE, FAITH and HOPE.

    The people of Israel for the past decades, have exemplified only their faith in the military power of the USA; the arrogance of being a bully; and the hopelessness of trusting in military might to achieve peace.

    In my humble bushy opinion, since Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Jesu Christi, the ‘chosen people’ of this world have been those who have been given the very spirit of God as so eloquently explained by Paul.
    The ‘chosen’ status of the physical peoples called Jews was but a foretaste of the great work that was to be done by the Messiah.

    The sad reality and truth is that those people who now live in that small enclave in Palestine and call themselves ‘Jews’, DO NOT have what it would take to live lives as ‘lights of this world’ or to be the ‘salt of the Earth’.

    Such a life is ONLY possible (and even then at great challenge and needing ongoing relentless efforts) by those who have been blessed with God’s holy spirit. Such persons are identifiable by the LOVE and Faith that exemplify their every behavior.

  189. What does it matter.

    We are all of God. Ego, power, deceit all contribute to segregate mankind.

    God is Love, Oneness.

  190. Georgie Porgie

    Mr Bush Tea Sir

    I said if I start a thread on “What the Bible Really Says About The Sons Of Abraham ” I would continue to say what the Bible says about the Children of Abraham.” And I meant that, because I can! LOL
    .
    Mr Bush Tea Sir, it does matter what title is given to a thread.
    Your bar raiser can mot sustain a reasonable argument about What the Bible Really Says About The Sons Of Abraham ” What the Bible Really Says About The Sons Of Abraham ” And yes I am an academic purist when I am dealing with academic pontiffs.
    I know well that this blog caters to all types. However, I don’t classify myself thus.OK?

    I am discussing What the Bible Really Says About The Sons Of Abraham.

    You and others continue to judge based on your own thinking You are leaning to your own understanding, when you opine “It is extremely difficult for anyone to understand how a people who claim to be God’s specially chosen can demonstrate all the characteristics that are CONTRARY to those expounded by the son of God himself.”

    The scriptures teach clearly that God told the Jews that they were not the most numerous people or the most righteous or the strongest when he chose them. His choosing them had nothing to with them per se , nor does his relationship with them depend on their behavior with respect to the Abrahamic Covenant. The promises of the Abrahamic covenant are unconditional as is clearly taught in Genesis 13 and Hebrews 6.

    His relationship with them with respect to the Mosaic Covenant made at Sinai was conditional on their obedience. For this they were twice removed from their land. For their rejection of God ‘s laws as itemized consistently throughout the OT they were sent into captivity by the Astyrians and the Babylonians. For rejecting Christ they were again dispersed after AD 70 and since. During that time they have undergone tremendous suffering, in keeping with the numerous predictions on this same matter.
    .
    The Scriptures teach as quoted by Zoe in Amos that on return to their land they will not be again removed. It is clear that the reassembling of the nation in 1948 is in keeping with the prophesies on Ezekiel and that in Matthew 24 with respect to the budding of the fig tree.

    Zoe has repeatedly rehearsed the history of Israel since their return to the land.
    It is clear that there is land in Arab territories where the Palestinians can be housed
    It is clear that there is a desire by the “Palestinians “ to destroy Israel at all cost .
    Zoe has proclaimed these truths all the time with out any understanding by folk who are supposed to be educated enough to ascertain the facts, and realize that he is indeed accurate.

    Re You seem to be saying that since they were ‘chosen’ they can now ‘do as they like’, and they will none the less be protected. I have not said anything of the sort, nor have I implied such. What I have done is highlighted the Scriptures in the Minor Prophets that speak to the regathering of Israel at the end times. One can do two things with these scriptures; believe as they are literally declared or reject or misinterpret them.

    I don’t care two hoots what you see or think you see. You need to stop adjudicating wit out the facts.
    This is exactly what we see with those individuals who are supposed to be Christians in the world.

    I believe that the Scripture teaches THE RAPTURE BT clearly in 1 Cor 15:552 et secq and 1 Thess 4:13-18inter alia

    You keep on harping on “This is the point that the bushman makes when I insist that anyone can talk, or write eloquently, but in the final analysis, it is the fruit that they produce which matters if we are seeking to judge their character.” You do not know me. You know nothing about my relationship with God “ You are NOT the judge of Christians or Israel. BT When will you get that into your head?

    And you know nothing absolutely NOTHING about my life or/ and my relationship wit the God of Heaven. Neither you or Technician or any one else will not be the judge of the Jews or Christians. You need to stop judging and leave the judging to Christ as determined by John 5.

    Re The people of Israel for the past decades, have exemplified only their faith in the military power of the USA; the arrogance of being a bully; and the hopelessness of trusting in military might to achieve peace.

    What do you expect them to do? How do you expect them to behave? They are still in unbelief? They are behaving just as they have behaved throughout their history. Their behavior has not been predicted to change until Christ’s return in Glory. This is the clear teaching of the Word. Israel are behaving just as they as expected to. Last week I cited Paul’s teaching on this from Romans 2, but it was lost on you because you can only see the understanding to which you lean

    Re Many persons display characteristics that are even more unrighteous than the ‘gentiles’ So what? Is ones acts of righteousness the determination of salvation?. Read Titus 3:3-5 & Romans 4;-5 Ephesians 2:8-10.

    Re Did Jesus not direct that the tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be cut down and cast into the fire…? You read a text here ad one there, but how does this relate to I John 1:9 and several other scriptures.

    Re The chosen people of this world were specifically selected to be ‘as the salt of the earth’ – to be examples of how the spiritual laws if God works and to exemplify the power of LOVE, FAITH and HOPE…… BUT NONE OF THEM ARE PERFECT NONE

    IT IS WRITTEN THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS NO NOT ONE. I am not down here depending on my self righteousness or my good works Sir.

    There are several scriptures that teach that Christians were given the Spirit of God, but there are scriptures that teach that Christians can grieve the spirit or quench the spirit also. You seem to hold on to the few verses that you know and seem not to regard the others. You need to apply what Paul calls the whole counsel of God

    YOU SEEM TO BETHE ONLY PERFECT CHRISTIAN WHO LOVES AND DOES EVERYTHING RIGHT. You thereby declare yourself to be a LIAR. Read 1 John 1 6-9.

    Re The ‘chosen’ status of the physical peoples called Jews was but a foretaste of the great work that was to be done by the Messiah.
    The sad reality and truth is that those people who now live in that small enclave in Palestine and call themselves ‘Jews’, DO NOT have what it would take to live lives as ‘lights of this world’ or to be the ‘salt of the Earth’.

    So you are a rocket scientist or Columbus or Columbo or Monk “ Which? THIS IS NOTHING NEW. THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY! THIS IS TAUGHT THROUGHOUT THE WORD OF GOD AND THEY HAVE BEEN PUNISHED AND CONTINUE TO BE SO PUNISHED

    None of us have stated that the Israelis are saints or perfect.

    Re Such a life is ONLY possible (and even then at great challenge and needing ongoing relentless efforts) by those who have been blessed with God’s holy spirit. Such persons are identifiable by the LOVE and Faith that exemplify their every behavior.

    Again this is basic stuff learned in Sunday School.

    You do not know the anguish and the struggles that Christians engage in. EVEN PAUL HAD STRUGGLES IN LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE READ ALL ABOUT IT IN ROMANS 6 & 7

    You are the only one that knows it all and lives perfectly and are above judgement.

    The Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional. God will deliver his chosen people at Christ’s return, according to the numerous promises to this effect, because God he must keep his promises as taught in several scriptures.do so according to the teachinhg of Hebrews 6:13 etc

    There is a need to try to understand what the Bible is saying even though it goes against our logic and our own understanding.

    You and others will continue in your ways. Why dot you let us go our way also. Let God judge us.

  191. Georgie Porgie

    I have been looking through the Minor Prophets and bringing to this thread WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS ABOUT THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM

    I continue now in Micah 7:15- 17. According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might. they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf [Mic. 7:16]. They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee

    God led Israel out of Egypt by miracle, but He did not bring them out of Babylon by miracle. No miracles are mentioned in connection with that, although their return to the land was a wonderful thing. It was the deliverance out of Egypt that was miraculous, and God says here that that will be the pattern for the day when He again brings them into the land. We have not seen anything like that in their present-day return to the land. We ought to recognize, therefore, that God has not yet completely fulfilled this prophecy.
    When God begins again to move them back into the land fully, the world will stand in amazement, just as the peoples round about them did at the time of their exodus from Egypt. You remember the confession of the harlot, Rahab: “For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed. And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath” (Josh. 2:10–11). The word has gotten around as to how God had taken care of His people.

    Verse 17 refers to the godless nations which have attempted to destroy Israel. In that day when He comes to deliver Israel, “they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.”

    Like it or lump it. This is what the scripture says.

  192. ….so wait….. now I am Mr Bush Tea SIR…???!!
    what happen to BT? rotflahmb (rotfl and holding muh belly)

    GP, why are you so ‘touchous’? (as Bonny would put it)?
    No one was talking about you….
    what happen? …. did the cap fit when I talk about so called christians not reflecting the fruits of the spirit?

    Man Bush Tea was talking GENERALLY. I ent mean you!

    Nor have the bushman ever said ANYWHERE that BT is any perfect or even halfway christian. The most the bushman ever claimed was to be one of BBE’s boys – all I looking for is a likkle pick with the cows or the bees (somebody have to help produce the milk and honey….LOL)

    …BT too wufless to feel that he is any perfect christian – ask Bonny or ac…..

    But you got the bushman at a loss GP…..
    I tell you that JESUS says that he going cut down the trees that do not produce good fruit and cast them in the fire and you get hot under the collar and cuss Bush Tea and say
    ***********************************************************************
    “I don’t care two hoots what you see or think you see. You need to stop adjudicating wit out the facts”
    ***********************************************************************
    Man BT was only passing on a message – just telling you what Jesus said GP….. it was pure hearsay….. LOL…. or are you saying that HE won’t be judging you either…??

    The other thing is this; If you agree that the Jews have been less than perfect and have been consistent in this behavior over the centuries -causing God to punish them over and over; Why are you complaining about others saying the exact same thing about their treatment of the Palestinians?

  193. Georgie Porgie

    Not touchous at all BT
    Just gave a detailed answer to your post, as is my custom.

  194. I ‘m not much of a biblical scholar, but if every time the Jews displease God by becoming arrogant and overbearing, he punishes them to bring them back in line, I’m wondering if it isn’t time again.

    Maybe it isn’t that end time is here, it may just be that its crying time for the chosen ones again because they haven’t learnt their lesson.

    Who will He use this time…Ahmadinejad?

  195. @ BUSH TEA*

    “In my humble bushy opinion, since Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Jesu Christi, the ‘chosen people’ of this world have been those who have been given the very spirit of God as so eloquently explained by Paul…The ‘chosen’ status of the physical peoples called Jews was but a foretaste of the great work that was to be done by the Messiah… ”

    Brother man, the stuff you come up with… LOL

    In all seriousness, (but first, I appreciate the kinder, gentler approach you have been exemplifying these days – shows real character) –

    We must be careful to think for ourselves…

    For me, as a child of God, EVERYTHING* must be fulfilled and has been fulfilled in CHRIST*** (PERIOD – NO “ands” “ifs” or “buts”)…

    Since the days of Paul the APOSTLE* – there has been a religious current in our theology (transposed by SATAN) that propagates and promulgates this idea of [2] COVENANTS*…

    It is nowhere to found in the grand schema of GOD’S* plans for humanity…

    Genesis to REVELATION points to one person and one person ALONE* (YESHUA MESSIAH)…

    For all those who want other forms of reasoning (including what in some circles is called “ACADEMIC PURITY”) – the concept in and of itself is FALLACIOUS; an OXYMORON and an insult to the wise man SOLOMON who reminds all of us that there is “NOTHING” new under the heaven…

    PURITY* is in CHRIST (Period!)…

    But Bushman, let satisfy the naysayers, soothsayers and those astrologers amongst us who are looking for some “guiding star” to light their pathway but moreover to hold on to because their lives seem so void of meaning and direction…

    Permit a small anecdote or maybe in this case, a postscript…

    The BIBLE* remind us that – “every servant is worthy of his hire”…

    FOR THE RECORD – I AM NOT GETTING PAID TO DO THIS – SO THERE IS NO CALCULABLE VALUE OR REASON FOR DOING IT…

    That said – let us continue….

  196. @ BUSH TEA

    For the sake of “academic expediency” – permit me to quote from one of my most respected professors, mentors and friend – the late Dr. Sam Bacchiocchi ( someone whom I got a chance to spend time with before his death in 2008) – a respected authority in his field of Church History & Theology.

    He is the first NON-CATHOLIC* to study at the prestigious Pontifical Gregorian University in (Vatican) ROME, where he was to be admitted in over 450 years of its history…

    At the Gregoriana, he spent the next [5] years working toward a Doctoratus in Church History…

    He was awarded the “GOLD MEDAL” by Pope Paul VI for attaining the academic distinction of Summa Cum Laude for his classic work and dissertation “FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY”… (Go figure)!!!

    He has authored over 15 books; wrote thousands of pamphlets and has contributed to scores of publication in his 50 years…

    I am blessed to be able to cite and reference someone whose stature testifies for itself…

    I will allow SAM* (posthumously) to explain the current dilemmas being discussed here (for the oxymoronic sake of so-called academic purity)…

    My “GUT” feeling ( well I won’t make that “privy” just yet)…

    Let’s see what happens first!!!

    But here goes:-

    A THEOLOGY OF CONTEMPT FOR THE JEWS by (Dr.S.Bacchiocchi)

    The controversy over the covenants is not a phenomenon of our times.

    It can be traced back to the early church.

    It stems largely from the theology of contempt for the Jews that was fabricated by such second century Christian writers like Barnabas and Justin Martyr in order to sanction the Roman persecution of the Jews as a fulfillment of their divine rejection.

    For example, Justin Martyr, a leader of the church of Rome in the middle of the second century, argues that the Sabbath and circumcision are the signs of the Old Covenant given to the Jews as the mark of the divine reprobation of the Jewish race.

    According to Justin, these signs were to serve “as a distinguishing mark, to set you [Jews] off from other nations and from us Christians.

    The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are justly yours.”

    These documents are examined at length in chapter 7 of my dissertation From Sabbath to Sunday.

    The anti-Jewish stigma of the Old Covenant can be traced historically through much of the Christian literature.

    Traces of it can be found even in some Adventist publications.

    Few days ago I received the newly released book by Ellet J. Waggoner, The Everlasting Covenant, which consists of a series of articles the author published in The Present Truth during 1896-97.

    The book is published and highly recommended by the Glad Tidings Publishers (2002) in Berrien Springs, Michigan.

    To my surprise I found that Waggoner explains that the Old Covenant was made at Sinai because of the Israelites’ transgressions.

    “They had lightly esteemed the ‘everlasting covenant’ which God made with Abraham, and therefore He made this one with them, as a witness against them.”

    To suggest that at Sinai God made a covenant with the Israelites “as a witness against them,” that is, to reveal their disobedience, means to attribute to God evil intent.

    It means to perpetrate the theology of contempt for the Jews that plagued Christianity through the centuries.

    More important still, it means to fail to realize, as we shall shortly see, that God’s covenant at Sinai reveals God’s gracious provision of salvation just as much as the New Covenant does.

    THE INFLUENCE OF DISPENSATIONALISM

    In recent years the controversy over the covenants has been rekindled by the adoption of what is known as “Dispensationalism” among most evangelical churches.

    The name “Dispensationalism” derives from the belief that redemptive history is divided into distinct dispensations or segment of time, in each of which God has been working with humanity in a different way.

    Dispensationalism is taught in principle at the Chicago Moody Bible Institute and at an estimated two hundred Bible institutes in the United States.

    Its official magazine is Bibliotheca Sacra which was inherited by Dallas Theological Seminary in 1934.

    Other magazines such as Christianity Today supports some of the dispensational views of the End.

    Popular books like Left Behind and The Late Great Planet Earth, have influenced millions of persons to accept the dispensational End-time scenario of the Rapture of the Church followed by the tribulation of the Jews and unbelievers.

    Dispensationalists interpret the Old and New Covenants as representing “TWO” different plans of salvation for two different people – Israel and the Church.

    In other words, God has not only two different plans of salvation, but also two different people.

    The destiny of each is supposed to be different, not only in this present age but also throughout eternity.

    “Throughout the ages,” writes Lewis Sperry Chafer, a leading Dispensational theologian, “God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives, which is Christianity.”

    What God has united by breaking down the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles (Eph 2:14), Dispensationalists are trying to divide by rebuilding the wall of partition not only for the present age but for all eternity.

    It is hard to believe that intelligent, responsible Christians would dare to fabricate such a divisive theology that grossly misrepresents the fairness and justice of God’s redemptive activities.

    LET’S EXAMINE FURTHER WHAT MY MENTOR & PROFESSOR SAYS ON THESE ISSUES…

  197. I give my support to the under dog day by day
    Motherless Children in the street
    searching to find a bite to eat
    I’ve seen motherless children in the street
    No clothes on their back no shoes on their feet
    Yet they serve jah lord continually
    and righteousness shall flow among them abundantly
    so protect them select them defend them there while the heathen object them

  198. @ BUSH TEA

    cont’d…

    ISRAEL IN PROPHECY (Dr. S. Bacchiocchi)

    It is widely believed among Evangelical Christians that the steady return of Jews to Palestine during this century, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, represent an amazing fulfillment of specific Old Testament promises made to the Israelites.

    Furthermore, this alleged fulfillment is viewed as the prelude to such final events as the Rapture, the Tribulation, the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple, the conversion of the Jews, the Return of Christ, and the establishment of the millennial Jewish kingdom ruled over by Christ from David’s throne in Jerusalem.

    Leon J. Wood aptly expresses this popular view in The Bible and Future Events: “The clearest sign of Christ’s return is the modern state of Israel . . .

    One should realize that God’s timetable could call for Israel to be in the land for many years before bringing the fruition of the age. But with the nation actually there, and with many factors concerning it fitting into conditions set forth in Scripture for the last days, . . . one may safely believe that Christ’s coming is not far in the future.”

    Hal Lindsey is even more specific by asserting that the political restoration of Israel in 1948 is not only “one of the most important events of our age,” but also “the most important prophetic sign to herald the era of Christ’s return.” He even boldly predicted in 1970 that “within forty years or so of 1948, all these things could take place.”

    A REMARKABLE EVENT.

    To say the least, the return of many Jews to Palestine and the establishment of the State of Israel are most remarkable happenings. So it is not surprising that many Christians and Jews see in these events which have transpired in the Middle East the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies.

    But is this a legitimate interpretation of prophecies?

    It is quite possible to believe personally that the Jewish people have a moral or historical right to the land of Palestine and that God has providentially led in the establishment of the State of Israel, but can such a belief be legitimately grounded on Biblical prophecies?

    To answer this question, it is necessary briefly to examine at least some of the prophecies generally adduced in support of this belief.

    OLD TESTAMENT RESTORATION PROPHECIES

    God’s Promises to Israelites. There is, first, God’s promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit “all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession” (Gen 17:8; cf. 12:7; 13:15; 15:18).

    In addition there are promises in some of the prophets that speak of a “second” return of the Israelites (Is 11:11) to their homeland “from all the nations” (Jer 29:14).

    Dispensationalists believe that this predicted return is supposed to be in unbelief (Ezek 36:24-26; cf. Jer 30).

    They find confirmation for such a belief in what is taking place today.

    The restoration promises are viewed as unconditional literal promises whose fulfillment began for the first time in 1948 with the dramatic recovery of part of Palestine by the Jews. Previous possessions and dispossessions of the land of Canaan by the Israelites supposedly do not fulfill God’s territorial promises for at least two reason.

    First, God promised not temporary but “everlasting possession” of the land (Gen 17:8). Second, the Israelites have never possessed in the past all the promised land “from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates” (Gen 15:18).

    CONDITIONAL NATURE OF GOD’S PROMISE

    The above literalistic interpretation of God’s territorial promises ignores first of all their conditional nature. God’s promise of land to Abraham’s progeny was conditional on a continuing obedience to His covenant requirements: “God said to Abraham, ‘As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations” (Gen 17:9; cf. 18:19).

    The conditional nature of the promise of the land in the Abrahamic covenant is clearly recognized in the Scriptures. Moses, for example, after the Kadesh rebellion, reminded the new generation that disobedience prevented their parents from entering the land of promise: “Not one of these men of this evil generation shall see the good land which I swore to give to your fathers” (Deut 1:35; cf. Num 14:22-23).

    Anticipating the expulsion of the Israelites from the land on account of disobedience, Moses admonished the people to “return to the Lord,” who in turn would remember “the covenant with your fathers which he swore to them” (Deut 4:30-31; cf. Deut 30:2, 3; I Kings 8:47-50).

    The conditional nature of God’s promises is perhaps best stated in Jeremiah 18:9-10 where the Lord declares: “If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will “BUILD” and “PLANT” it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do it.”

    The principles established in this passage is that God’s predictions of weal or woe for a nation are conditional upon obedience or disobedience. Obviously it is only by God’s grace that believers can fulfill the conditions, but the fact remains that the conditions are there and no one has the right to take the “ifs” out of the Bible.

    THE RETURN IN UNBELIEF

    Dispensationalists “refuse” to apply the principle of the conditional nature of God’s promises to the predictions regarding the return of the Jews to Palestine. They appeal to passages such as Ezekiel 22:17 and 36:24-28 to argue that “the Jews are to be gathered back to the land in a state of unbelief.

    The national conversion to Jesus Christ their Messiah will not take place until after they are restored to the land” v.46. In other words, the territorial restoration of the Jews is supposed to precede their conversion to the Messiah.

    Unfortunately, this belief is based on a misinterpretation of certain Biblical texts.

    For example, the statement found in Ezekiel 22:19-20, “I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath,” is taken to refer to the present emigration of the Jews to Palestine in unbelief.

    This interpretation is erroneous for at least two reasons.

    First of all, in the preceding verses Ezekiel is describing not the future but the contemporary situation of the Israelites by enumerating their sins which will cause God to scatter them “among the nations” (v. 15).

    Second, the gathering of the Jews “in my anger and in my wrath” refers not to their return to Palestine in unbelief, but to the finality of God’s judgment upon their disobedience which historically took place through the Babylonian invasions and captivity.

    This passage leaves no doubt that the purpose of the gathering is for judgment, not restoration. This is clear in the following verse where the Lord says: “I will gather you and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it” (Ezek 22:21). Thus the gathering in Ezekiel, like the assemblying in Jeremiah (8:14), is for the purpose not of restoration and salvation but of judgment and destruction.

    REGATHERING AND CLEANSING

    The second “proof text” generally cited to support the return-in-unbelief view, is Ezekiel 36:24-25: “For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”

    The fact that the promise of territorial restoration precedes the spiritual cleansing of the people in this passage is taken to mean that first the Jews will return to Palestine in unbelief and afterward they will be cleansed and redeemed.

    This conclusion is based on an artificial chronological sequence which cannot be derived from the passage.

    Ezekiel is not saying that the Lord first will regather the Israelites and then at a subsequent period He will cleanse them. He simple declares that God will do two things for His people: He will regather and cleanse them. No hint is given that the two events will be separated by an undetermined length of time.

    The context of the chapter suggests that the regathering and the cleansing will take place at the same time, with the spiritual cleansing preceding rather than following the regathering: “On that day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt” (Ezek 36:33).

    Observations such as these clearly show that Ezekiel 36:24-28 offers no proof for a twentieth-century return of the Jews in unbelief to Palestine.

    TWO BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES

    Further support for this conclusion is provided by two basic Biblical teachings regarding the land of promise.

    First, historically it was unbelief that prevented the Israelites from entering the land of Canaan (Num 14:23; Ps 95:7, 11).

    This truth is reiterated by the author of Hebrews when he emphasizes that unbelief disqualifies anyone from entering the rest which the Sabbath typifies, whether it be the political rest in the land of Canaan (Heb 3:18-19; 4:6-8) or the spiritual rest of salvation (Heb 4:3, 9, 10).

    If unbelief prevented the initial entrance into the land of Canaan, it can hardly provide the condition accompanying a return to it.

    Second, God rewards obedience, not disobedience, with the covenant privileges. The restoration predicted by the prophets is conditional in character. Israel will be restored “if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart in the land of their enemies” (1 King 8:38; cf. Hosea 11:10, 11; Deut 30: 2, 3, 9, 10).

    A “SECOND” GATHERING

    Another prophecy viewed by many as a proof text for the present reconstitution of Israel is found in Isaiah 11:11: “in that day the Lord will extend His hand yet a second time to recover the remnant which is left of His people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Ethiopia, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.”

    Isaiah’s reference to “a second” gathering of the remnant of Israel from many nations is viewed as being fulfilled today for the first time with the return of some Jews to the reconstituted State of Israel.

    The latter is seen as the prelude to the final regathering of Israel, which, to use J. F. WALVOORD’S words, “will have its culmination when Israel’s Messiah returns to the earth in power and glory to reign.”

    This view rests on the assumption that the “second” gathering predicted by Isaiah was not fulfilled when a faithful remnant of Israel returned from Babylon to Jerusalem in 536 B.C. under Zerubbabel and again in 457 B.C. under Ezra.

    Two main reasons are generally given.

    First, the return from the Babylonian exile was only from one nation, Babylon, and not “from all the nations” (Jer 29:14; cf. Is 11:11).

    Second, the return from the Babylonian exile was but a pale reflection of the grandiose return envisioned by Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Isaiah.

    A RETURN “FROM ALL THE NATIONS”

    The first reason ignores three significant facts.

    First, it was customary at that time to sell prisoners of war to other nations, so that they were dispersed far and wide (Joel 3:7; Jer 42-44; Ezek 27:13; Amos 1:6, 9).

    In a gradual return from captivity it would be natural for some of the widely dispersed Jews to go back to Palestine from many countries. This is what apparently took place after the Babylonian exile, since those who returned did not belong exclusively to the tribe of Judah but also to the other tribes as well (Ezra 2:59; 6Z:17; 1 Chron. 9:33, 34).

    Second, the prophets sometimes fuse together references to a return from “the land of their captivity” (i.e. Babylon) with a return from “all the nations,” because to their minds these expressions were simply variant ways of describing the condition of the Jews in exile and God’s promised restoration.

    A good example is found in Jeremiah 30:10-11, where the two expressions are used interchangeably in the same passage: “Fear not, O Jacob my servant, . . . for lo, I will save you from afar, and your offspring from the land of their captivity . . . I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you” (cf. Jer 31:8, 11; 46:27).

    Third, to apply literally and consistently Isaiah’s prediction of “a second” gathering of Israel from many nations to the contemporary return of the Jews to Palestine would require that the Jews destroy or plunder or subjugate the Philistines, the Edomites, and Moabites, and the Ammonites, as stated in the context of Isaiah’s prophecy: “They shall swoop down upon the shoulder of the Philistines in the west, and together they shall plunder the people of the east. They shall put forth their hand against Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites shall obey them” (Is 11:14).

    Since these nations have long ago disappeared, it is hard to see how the Jews today could fulfill literally Isaiah’s prediction of “a second” gathering.

    This fanciful prophetic interpretation could be avoided simply by carefully reading the context, which clearly speaks of “a second” return of a remnant from Assyria, in relation to the first return from Egypt under Moses: “There will be a highway from Assyria for the remnant which is left of his people, as there was for Israel when they came up from the land of Egypt” (Is 11:16).

    Assyria is mentioned first (also in v. 11) presumably because Isaiah wrote these words after the Northern Kingdom had been deported to Assyria in 721 B.C.

    Thus this prophecy had a literal fulfillment when the Israelites returned from captivity in the sixth century B.C.

    LIMITED RETURN FROM BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY

    The second reason maintains that the trickle of Jews who returned to Palestine under Zerubbabel in 536 B.C. and under Ezra in 457 B.C. was only a pale reflection of the grandiose return envisioned by the prophets.

    Moreover, the Jews did not experience the economic prosperity and agricultural fertility predicted by the prophets (Is 35:1; 61:4).

    The surrounding nations were not destroyed and continued to threaten the Jews again and again.

    Consequently, one must look allegedly for a later fulfillment in the events of our time.

    The return of the Jews to the land is now in progress.

    Israel has become the strongest military power of the Middle East. The soil is being reclaimed after centuries of neglect, through the diversion of water from the Jordan to irrigate the Negev desert.

    These developments have led many Christians to believe that those restoration prophecies are indeed being fulfilled today.

    A travel advertisement in Christianity Today (October 27, 1967) aptly expresses this popular belief: “Is Prophecy Being Fulfilled in the Bible Lands Today? Come and See.”

    THREEFOLD FULFILLMENT OF RESTORATION PROPHECIES

    It can hardly be disputed that the restoration prophecies were not completely fulfilled in the post-exilic period and that it is appropriate to look for a fuller fulfillment at a later time. However, in looking for a greater fulfillment it is important to recognize that prophecies regarding the Land of Canaan and the restoration of Israel may be fulfilled in a threefold way: literally, figuratively, and anti-typically.

    LITERAL FULFILLMENT

    God’s territorial promise to Abraham’s progeny was first fulfilled literally several times. Joshua, for example, declares: “The Lord gave to Israel all the land which he swore to give to their father: and having taken possession of it, they settled there . . . Not one of all the good promises which the Lord had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass” (Josh 21:43, 45; cf. 1 Kings 8:56; Jer 32:21-23).

    Similarly, the promised restoration of the Jews to Palestine predicted by the prophets found an initial literal fulfillment when a remnant of the Jews returned under Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah.

    Jeremiah, for example, in the same passage where he announces the restoration of the Jews “from all the nations” (Jer 29:14), explicitly explains when the promised restoration would take place: “Thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place” (Jer 29:10). Daniel correctly understood that this prophecy would be fulfilled not at a distant future but in his own time (Dan 9:2).

    FIGURATIVE FULFILLMENT

    God’s promise of the land to Abraham’s progeny and of the restoration of Israel have also been fulfilled in a second way, figuratively.

    The New Testament explains that the land and blessings promised to Abraham’s posterity have been fulfilled not only literally, in the past return of the Jews to Palestine, but also figuratively in and through the “Coming of Christ”, Who is the intent and content of God’s covenant with Abraham (Acts 3:25-26; 13:16, 32-33).

    Paul explains that the promises which God “made to Abraham and to his offspring” (Gal 3:16) have been fulfilled through Christ, because He is the epitome of the true seed of Abraham.

    The fulfillment, however, consists not in a future repossession of Palestine by the Jews, but rather in the inheritance of the whole renewed earth by believers in Christ from all nations (Rom 4:13; Matt 5:5, 3; Rev 21:1-8).

    INGATHERING OF THE GENTILES

    Not only God’s territorial promise to Abraham’s progeny, but also the later predictions regarding the restoration of Israel, are seen in the New Testament as fulfilled figuratively through the coming of Christ.

    At the Jerusalem Council, for example, after Peter, Paul, and Barnabas reported how God brought many Gentiles into the faith, James, who apparently presided over the council, said: “Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His Name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says that Lord, who has made these things known from of old’” (Acts 15:14-18).

    James here quotes Amos’s prophecy regarding the restoration of David’s kingdom (Amos 9:11-12) which would bring about the “ingathering” of the Gentiles, and declares that this prophecy was being fulfilled through the ingathering of the Gentiles into the community of God’s people. We have here a clear example of a figurative New Testament fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy regarding the restoration of Israel.

    Noteworthy is the change made by James in translating Amos’s prophecy.

    Amos’s phrase “that they may possess the remnant of Edom” (Amos 9:12), becomes in Acts 15:17, “that the rest of men may seek the Lord.”

    What this means is that James saw the fulfillment of Amos’s prophecy not in a future political restoration of the Davidic dynasty that would militarily gain possession of the remnants of Edom, but rather in the spiritual reign of Christ which is voluntarily sought by believers.

    Here, then, the New Testament interprets figuratively an Old Testament prophecy regarding the restoration of Israel.

    ANTITYPICAL FULFILLMENT

    Prophecies about the Promised Land and the restoration of Israel will also be ultimately fulfilled antitypically – that is, in the final possession by all of God’s people of the new earth of which Canaan was a “type”.

    The Scripture indicates that the land of Canaan was a type of the inheritance of God’s people in the new earth.

    Hebrews explains that Abraham and his believing descendants saw the ultimate fulfillment of the promised land of Canaan, not in a return to “that land from which they had gone out,” but rather in reaching “a better country, that is, a heavenly one” (Heb 11:15-16).

    Consequently Abraham, who had been promised the land of Canaan, “looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Heb 11:10).

    The future “Holy City” (Rev 21:10), to which Abraham looked forward, will be the antitypical fulfillment of God’s promise to him of the everlasting possession of the land of Canaan.

    This promise will be fulfilled on the new earth for all the spiritual descendants of Abraham, believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

    Paul emphasizes this truth when he writes: “If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (Gal 3:29). As believers we are “heirs” to God’s promise made to Abraham regarding the land of Canaan. This promise will be ultimately fulfilled when we reach the “better country” and “inherit the world” (Heb 11:6; Rom 4:13).

    MESSIANIC RESTORATION

    The antitypical fulfillment also applies to the prophecies regarding the gathering of Israel from the dispersion.

    Isaiah’s prediction of “a second” gathering of the remnant of Israel (Is 11:11) is given in the context of the Coming of the Messiah as a glorious Judge who “shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Is 11:4).

    The outcome of this final judgment will be peace, justice, and harmony in the natural world, “for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” (Is 11:5-9).

    At the time of the final Messianic restoration just described, “the Lord will extend His hand yet a second time to recover the remnant” from many nations (Is 11:11).

    What this means is that Isaiah forecasts the second gathering of Israel, not merely to the land of Canaan, but to the Messiah Himself at the time when He will come as a Judge to restore justice, peace, and prosperity to this world.

    This gathering is not only for Israel, but for all believers from many nations. (Is 11:11).

    The New Testament envisions this final gathering of believers from all nations at the glorious Return of Christ.

    At that time, “He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect form the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matt 24:31).

    This final gathering will not be to the Middle East, but “from one end of heaven to the other” to the Savior.

    This is Christ’s final antitypical fulfillment of Isaiah’s predicted second gathering (cf. Matt 8:11-12).

    DEEPER MEANING OF ISRAEL AND CANAAN

    The question could be asked: Why then do the Old Testament prophets speak so plainly of a national restoration of Israel to its land, when the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies is the inheritance of the new earth by the believers of all the ages?

    The answer is to be found in the fact that the Old Testament prophets often describe the ultimate blessedness by means of terms and experiences familiar to the Israelites of their days.

    For the prophets the term Israel signified the people of God and the land of Canaan represented the promised blessings of peace and prosperity.

    Because of these deeper meanings, these terms could serve to express the hope for the ultimate realization of God’s blessings for His people.

    We noted in Chapter 2 that the “prophetic perspective” enabled the prophets to see the final divine visitation and restoration through the transparency of imminent historical events.

    In the same way the final gathering of all believers (Is 11:11; 49:6) is sometimes described by the prophets in terms of the regathering of the remnant of Israel to its land.

    The above considerations on the literal, figurative, and antitypical fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies regarding the restoration of Israel lead us to conclude that there is a sense in which these prophecies were not fully realized in Old Testament times.

    However, their fuller realization must be sought, not in a political restoration of the Jews in Palestine, but in the universal gathering of all believers in the new earth.

    To limit the fulfillment of these prophecies to a political restoration of the Jews in Palestine, whether it be now or during the Millennium, is to ignore the witness of the New Testament which sees these prophecies fulfilled not in some future return of the Jews to Palestine but in the present gathering of believers into the Church and in a future universal gathering of people from all tribes, peoples, and tongues in the new earth.

    “THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES”

    One of the prophecies most quoted by dispensationalists to support the present return of the Jews to the city of Jerusalem is Luke 21:24: “Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

    Many Christians believe that this prophecy was fulfilled for the first time on June 6, 1967, when the Jews recaptured the Old City of Jerusalem, thus terminating its “treading down” by the Gentiles.

    The reasoning for this view is aptly expressed by a leading dispensationalist theologian, C. F. Baker: “If this city is trodden down until a certain time, there must of necessity come a time following that when the city will not be trodden down . . . If this Scripture teaches anything, it teaches that the earthly Jerusalem is to be restored.”

    Such reasoning sounds logical but it rests on a gratuitous interpretation of the adverb “until,” besides ignoring Christ’s overall teachings on this subject.

    The primary function of the adverb “until” in the phrase “until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” is to indicate the termination of the treading down of Jerusalem but not its restoration to a previous state of Jewish sovereignty.

    The adverb “until” (achri) in itself does not suggest a change to a previous situation.

    For example, in the admonition “Hold fast what you have, until I come” (Rev 2:25), the adverb “until” does not convey the idea of a change from a present condition of faithfulness to a previous condition of unfaithfulness (cf. Rev 2:10; 1 Cor 15:25).

    In this statement Jesus simply says that for Jerusalem the condition of being trampled underfoot will not cease within fifty or a hundred years, but will continue right on until His Second Coming.

    The event which follows the fulfillment of “the Times of the Gentiles” is not the restoration of Jewish sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem, but the Return of Christ (Luke 21:25-28).

    PREDICTION OF DESTRUCTION, NOT OF RESTORATION

    Note should be taken of the fact that in predicting the destruction of Jerusalem, Christ said nothing about its restoration.

    What Jesus taught instead is that the special status of the Jews as a people of God had come to an end (Matt 23:38; Luke 19:41-44).

    In the parable of the “Tenants in the Vineyard”, the unfaithful tenants do not regain possession of the Vineyard at a later time, but lose it forever, as God gives it “to a nation producing the fruits of it” (Matt 21:41-43).

    The same truth is expressed in the parable of the “Wedding Feast”, where the place of those who were originally invited to the feast is taken by all sorts of other people brought in from the street (Matt 22:1-10).

    Those who “sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven” “come from east and west . . . while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness” (Matt 8:11-12).

    This description of people coming “from east and west” alludes to certain prophetic descriptions of the return of the Jews from exile (cf. Is 43:5; Ps 107:3).

    Yet here Jesus clearly applies these prophecies to the gathering of all believing people, Jews and Gentiles.

    The New Testament foresees not the return of the Jews to a restored Jerusalem but the gathering of all believers to the New Jerusalem built by God Himself (Rev 21-22).

    CONCLUSION

    The unmistakable conclusion that emerges from this study of the major restoration prophecies is that none of these offers a forecast or even a hint of a restoration of the Jews to Palestine in our century as a prelude to the final events of earth’s history.

    We have found that the Scripture sees these prophecies as fulfilled literally when a remnant of Jews returned to Palestine from Babylon; figuratively when Christ came the first time to gather spiritually all believers unto Himself; and antitypically when Christ will return to gather physically His people “from one end of heaven to the other” to the new earth.

    The view that the political restoration of the Jews in 1948 is “the most important prophetic sign to herald the era of Christ’s return” is, then, a view which has no legitimate Biblical support.

    Unfortunately, however, such a mistaken view is the very basis upon which rests the popular scenario of End-time events promoted by popular Evangelical preachers today.

  199. Leroy Smart & The Mighty
    Diamonds – The Meek
    Shall Inherit

  200. Georgie Porgie


    • People All! Listen to Moses! Listen to the bar raiser the author of many books the hob nobber with Muslim Professors. The one who has a brother at Oxford Now we are to EXAMINE FURTHER WHAT HIS MENTOR & PROFESSOR SAYS ON THESE ISSUES… LOL

    Wait Suh? YOU DON’T THINK THAT THEY HAVE OTHER MENTORS AND PROFESSORS ELSEWHERE.
    Who is your most respected professors, mentors and friend – the late Dr. Sam Bacchiocchi ( someone whom you got a chance to spend time with before his death in 2008) – a respected authority in his field of Church History & Theology ? IS THIS MAN GOD? NO! IS HE THE HOLY SPIRIT? NO

    Re He is the first NON-CATHOLIC* to study at the prestigious Pontifical Gregorian University in (Vatican) ROME, where he was to be admitted in over 450 years of its history…At the Gregoriana, he spent the next [5] years working toward a Doctoratus in Church History…He was awarded the “GOLD MEDAL” by Pope Paul VI for attaining the academic distinction of Summa Cum Laude for his classic work and dissertation “FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY”… (Go figure)!!!
    He has authored over 15 books; wrote thousands of pamphlets and has contributed to scores of publication in his 50 years…

    SO WHAT? THEY ARE MANY BIBLE EXOSITORS OUT THERE WHO HAVE JUST AS GREAT AN ACADEMIC RECORD LOL OR BETTER

    You CANT DEFEND YOUR POSITION BY SHOWING WHAT THE SCRIPTURES REALLY TEACH YOU HAVE TO GO FOR DEAD SAM MAN? YOU TOO FUNNY

    Sam was surprised to find “that Waggoner explains that the Old Covenant was made at Sinai because of the Israelites’ transgressions. “ Man this is basic info taught in any good Sunday school in a good Bible teaching church.

    Re
    To suggest that at Sinai God made a covenant with the Israelites “as a witness against them,” that is, to reveal their disobedience, means to attribute to God evil intent.

    THAT IS HS NONSENSICAL CONCLUSION

    IT MEANS ONLY WHAT IT SAYS. GOD GAVE THEM A WARNING
    WHEN YOUR MOMMA WARNED YOU THAT SHE WOULD PUT SOME LICKS IN YOUR TAIL FOR DISOBEDIENCE WAS SHE EVIL? DID SHE HAVE EVIL INTENT OR GOOD?

    GOD GAVE ISRAEL A CHOICE AT SINAI. LOL

    The name “Dispensationalism” derives from the belief that redemptive history is divided into distinct dispensations or segment of time, in each of which God has been working with humanity in a different way.

    How else can you interpret the Bible

    Re Dispensationalism is taught in principle at the Chicago Moody Bible Institute and at an estimated two hundred Bible institutes in the United States.
    Its official magazine is Bibliotheca Sacra which was inherited by Dallas Theological Seminary in 1934.

    DISPENSAIONALISM IS WRONG FRIENDS BECAUSE THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST DON’T TEACH IT LOL

    Re Dispensationalists interpret the Old and New Covenants as representing “TWO” different plans of salvation for two different people – Israel and the Church.
    In other words, God has not only two different plans of salvation, but also two different people.
    The destiny of each is supposed to be different, not only in this present age but also throughout eternity.

    THIS IS A LIE. THIS IS ACTUALLYTHE FIRST TIME I AM HEARING THIS RUBBISH

    What God has united by breaking down the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles (Eph 2:14), Dispensationalists are trying to divide by rebuilding the wall of partition not only for the present age but for all eternity. THIS IS A LIE. THIS IS ACTUALLY THE FIRST TIME I AM HEARING THIS RUBBISH

    No intelligent, responsible Christians would dare to fabricate such a divisive theology that grossly misrepresents the fairness and justice of God’s redemptive activities. NONE

    BUT THE SAD SDA NO IT ALL WOULD TELL FOLK WHAT THE TEACH AND WHAT THEY BELIEVE BECAUSE THEY GO BY WHAT THEIR MENTOR & PROFESSOR SAYS ON THESE ISSUES… LOL

    DON’T intelligent, responsible Christians intelligent, responsible Christians have WHAT THEIR MENTOR & PROFESSOR TOO? LOL
    FRIENDS IF SAM WAS NOT YOUR MENTOR YOU’VE MISSED THE BOAT BECAUSE SAM IS THE MAN IN THE VAN! AND ONLY THE ADVENTISTS HAVE IT RIGHT

    THE ADVENTISTS CAME ON THE SCENE WHEN? AND ONLY THEY KNOW IT ALL

    ALL THE THEOLOGY THATWAS TAUGHT ANY WHERE IS WRONG
    ONLY TERRENCE AND SAM AND THE SDA”S GOT THE TRUTH FRIENDS.

    For get Chaffer and Waldvord and anything coming out of Chicago Moody Bible Institute and at an estimated two hundred Bible institutes in the United States or .
    Dallas Theological Seminary in 1934.

    IT IS NO LONGER BIBLIO SOLO ITS SAM SOLO ITS THE SDA SOLO

    ITS TERRENCE”S MENTOR & PROFESSOR SOLO!

    Man I have never heard such rubbish in the last 42 years.

    Don’t read the Bible for your self like the Bereans in Acts 17. Don’t let the Holy Spirit help you to interpret the Word FOLLOW SAM TERRENCE AND THE SDA’s SOLO!

    MAN THIS MAN IS SUCH A JOKER.
    I HAVE NO DENOMINATIONAL DOGMA TO GIVE FRIENDS

    AND I HAVE NO MENTORS OR PROFESSORS

    I compare anything I read to what THE WORD says using Coopers simple rule.

    WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE MAKES COMMON SENSE SEEK NO PTHER SENSE BUT INTERPRET EVEY WORD LITERALLY UNLESS THE CONTEXT INDICATES OTHERWISE.

  201. Georgie Porgie

    Listen to this nonsense friends

    PREDICTION OF DESTRUCTION, NOT OF RESTORATION

    Note should be taken of the fact that in predicting the destruction of Jerusalem, Christ said nothing about its restoration.

    MY QUESTION IS WHY SHOULD HE? THE RESTORATION WAS PREDICTED OVER AND OVER BY SEVERAL PROPHETS. WHY SHOULD JESUS REINVENT THE WHEEL?

    DID SAM NOT TEACH THE PURPOSE OF THE OLIVET DISCOURSE WHAT JESUS DEMONSTRATED THEREAT?

    WAS PROPHECY GIVEN BEFORE THIS TIME?
    WAS ANY PROPHECY GIVEN AFTER THE OLIVET DISCOURSE

    HOW MUCH OF THE PROPHESY GIVEN BEFORE OR AFTER THE OLIVET DISCOURSE DID JESUS ADRESS, SIr. I SUGGEST YOU WAKE UP SAM AND ASK HIM.

    What Jesus taught instead is that the special status of the Jews as a people of God had come to an end (Matt 23:38; Luke 19:41-44).
    In the parable of the “Tenants in the Vineyard”, the unfaithful tenants do not regain possession of the Vineyard at a later time, but lose it forever, as God gives it “to a nation producing the fruits of it” (Matt 21:41-43).
    The same truth is expressed in the parable of the “Wedding Feast”, where the place of those who were originally invited to the feast is taken by all sorts of other people brought in from the street (Matt 22:1-10).
    Those who “sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven” “come from east and west . . . while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness” (Matt 8:11-12).

    THESE PARABLES SIGNAL THE END OF ONE DISPENSATION AND THE END OF ANOTHER

    DOES ROMANS 9-11 TEACH THAT GOD IS FINISHED WITH THE JEWS

    DOES NOT ROMANS 9-11 EXPLAIN THESE PARABLES/

    IS NOT THE BIBLE THE BEST COMMENTARY AND EXPOSITOR OF THE BIBLE/

    DID NOT PETER TEACH THAT NO SCRIPTURE IS OF PRIVATE INTERPRETATION? ARE WE NOOT TO COMPARE SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE? oR ARE WE ONLY TO GO BY SAM’S DOCTRINES AND INTERPRETATIONS?

    This description of people coming “from east and west” alludes to certain prophetic descriptions of the return of the Jews from exile (cf. Is 43:5; Ps 107:3).
    Yet here Jesus clearly applies these prophecies to the gathering of all believing people, Jews and Gentiles.

    good!

    nOW SEE HOW YTOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF
    The New Testament foresees not the return of the Jews to a restored Jerusalem but the gathering of all believers to the New Jerusalem built by God Himself (Rev 21-22).

    yOU JUST SAID THAT This description of people coming “from east and west” alludes to certain prophetic descriptions of the return of the Jews from exile (cf. Is 43:5; Ps 107:3). WHICH IS THE CORRECT INTERPRETAION.

    THE SCRIPTURES OVER AND OVER PREDICTS THE RETURN OF THE JEWS FROPM ALL OVER THE WORLD.
    IT ALSO PREDICTS THAT THE GENTILES WILL BE A PART OF THE MILLENNIUM IN SEVERAL PLACES SO JESUS WAS ONLY SAYNG WHAT THE OT SCRIPTURES HAD SAID OVER AND OVER.

    gO AND ASK sAM MAN ROTFLMAO

  202. Georgie Porgie

    rE CONCLUSION
    The unmistakable conclusion that emerges from this study of the major restoration prophecies is that none of these offers a forecast or even a hint of a restoration of the Jews to Palestine in our century as a prelude to the final events of earth’s history.

    WELL HAS THERE BEEN A RESTORATION OF THE JEWS TO PALESTINE IN THE LAST CENTURY? YES OR NO?

    DID THE SCRIPTURES PREDICT A RETURN OF JEWS TO THE LAND? YES OR NO?

    HAS THIS RETURN OCCURED? YES OR NO?

    HAS THE FINAL EVENTS OF WORLD HISTORY YET OCCURED? YES OR NO?

    IF THE FINAL EVENTS OF WORLD HISTORY HAVE NOT YET OCCURED THEN ONE DOES NOT NEED SAM TO TELL US THAT THE RETURN OF JEWS TO ISRAEL IN UNPRECEDENTED NUMBERS IS A LITERAL FULFILLMENT OF SCRIPTURE IN OUR TIMES JUST AS NUMERPUS SCRIPTURES HAVE PREDICTED.

    mY LITTLE DONKEY IN THE YARDS IS SAYING “The unmistakable conclusion that emerges from thE RETURN OF jEWS TO iSRAEL SINCE 1948 IS FULFILLMENT of the MANY AND major restoration prophecies OF THE OT AND A prelude to the final events of earth’s history JUST AS jESUS PREDICTED IN THE oLIVET dISCOURSE.
    .

    We KNOW THAT WHEN THE JEWS RETURNED TO JERUSALEM UNDER NEHEMIAH EXRA AND ZERRUNBBABEL THAT ONLY 2055 OF THOSE IN EXILE RETURNED SO HOW THIS WOULD REPRESENT A LITERAL FULFILLMMENT IS BEYOND ME AND EVEN MYLITTLE DONKEY.

    TELL ME OH THOU STUDENT OF SAM AND SCHOLAR AUTHOR AND RAISER OF THE BAR

    WHERE have YOU found that the Scripture sees these prophecies as fulfilled literally when a remnant of Jews returned to Palestine from Babylon? Could you give us the scripture references to support this .

    Is it not true in Haggai that the prophet spoke of a greater glory of the temple there were building? Why would the failure of 80% of the exiles represent a literal fulkfillment of prophecies?

    When Jesus Christ came the first time he said that he came to seek the lost AT NO TIME DID HE SAY THAT HE CAME TO FIGURATIVELY FULFILL ANY PROPGECIES CONCERNING THE INGATHERING OR RESTORATION OF ISRAEL If I am incorrect please provide the NT reference Sir, or go ask Sam! LOL

    The political restoration of the Jews is a very important prophetic sign to herald the era of Christ’s return BECAUSE JESUS GAVE US THIS AS A SIGN IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE. What more legitimate Biblical support do you need Sir

    It seems that Sam got that wrong too, man! Ah lie?

    Did Sam also teach you that the other lines have to become pally paly before the second coming oh thou most extinguished scholar, author and raiser of the bar?

  203. Georgie Porgie

    “THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES”
    One of the prophecies most quoted by dispensationalists to support the present return of the Jews to the city of Jerusalem is Luke 21:24: “Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
    Many Christians believe that this prophecy was fulfilled for the first time on June 6, 1967, when the Jews recaptured the Old City of Jerusalem, thus terminating its “treading down” by the Gentiles.
    ==========================================
    Mr Scholar Have you heard of the law of first mention?
    Have you heard of the rule given by the Spirit through Peter THAT NO SCRIOTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETAION

    Have you examined the occurences of the term “time of the gentiles.” Go ask Sam when the times of the gentiles began, and when it will end Sir?

    Let me teach you a fact you did not learn from Sam Sir.
    No sane sober sound scholar of the Scriptures believe that ” that this prophecy was fulfilled for the first time on June 6, 1967, when the Jews recaptured the Old City of Jerusalem, thus terminating its “treading down” by the Gentiles.” OK?

    The times of the “Gentiles is not yet over” OK?

    And I must say that CF BAKER is being quite logical when he opines “If this city is trodden down until a certain time, there must of necessity come a time following that when the city will not be trodden down . . . If this Scripture teaches anything, it teaches that the earthly Jerusalem is to be restored.”

    The event which follows the fulfillment of “the Times of the Gentiles” is BOTH the restoration of Jewish sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem, AND the Return of Christ (Luke 21:25-28). This is clearly taught in all the Scriptures that teaches the Millennial reign of Christ.

    The Times of the Gentiles has not YET come to its end. It will occur ONLY AT CHRISTS SECOND COMING. At the time of his coming Jesus Dacid’s greatest Son and the descendant of Abraham called the SEED will restore Jewish sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem Jewish as taught in several OT scriptures. Ah lie? If you doubt me go ask your mentor and professor Sam.

  204. Georgie Porgie

    DEEPER MEANING OF ISRAEL AND CANAAN
    The question could be asked: Why then do the Old Testament prophets speak so plainly of a national restoration of Israel to its land,
    BECAUSE THERE WILL BE A NATIONAL RESTORATION OF ISRAEL TO ITS LAND

    when the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies is the inheritance of the new earth by the believers of all the ages?

    GIVE THE SCRIPTURE REFERENCES THAT STATE THIS PRECLUDES THE NATIONAL RESTORATION OF ISREAL TO ITS LAND.

    HOW BIG IS THE LAND MASS OF ISRAEL?
    HOW DOES ISRAEL’S RESTORATION TO THEIR LAND IN ANY WAY PREVENT the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies OF the inheritance of the new earth by the believers of all the ages?

    BECAUSE YOU AND SAM AND THE SDA’S SAY SO SIR?

    The answer is to be found in the fact that the Old Testament prophets are to be taken literally too! aH LIE? wAKE UP sAM AND ASK HE MAN?

    rE For the prophets the term Israel signified the people of God and the land of Canaan represented the promised blessings of peace and prosperity.
    Because of these deeper meanings, these terms could serve to express the hope for the ultimate realization of God’s blessings for His people.

    THESE TERMS COULD JUST AS EASILY MEAN JUST WHAT THEY SAID THE HOPE OR PROMISE FOR THE ULTIMATE REALIZATION OF GOD’S BLESSINGS THE JEWS LITERALLY aH LIE?

    rE the “prophetic perspective” enabled the prophets to see the final divine visitation and restoration through the transparency of imminent historical events.

    In the same way the final gathering of ISREAL (Is 11:11; 49:6) is described by the prophets in terms of the regathering of the remnant of Israel to its land. NOTE THAT ISAIAH PROPHESISED TO ISRAEL PRIMARILY.

    THE PROMISES TO THE cHURCH ARE CLEARLY GIVEN IN THE NT

    It is very clear that the Old Testament prophecies regarding the restoration of Israel lead us to conclude that these prophecies were not fully realized in Old Testament times, and that their fuller realization must be sought, BOTH in a political restoration of the Jews in Palestine, AND in the universal gathering of all believers in the new earth.
    To limit the fulfillment of these prophecies to a political restoration of the Jews in Palestine, whether it be now or during the Millennium, DOES NOT ignore the witness of the New Testament . THE NT AT NO POINT SAYS THAT THE PROMISES MADE TO ISRAEL HAS TO DO WITH the present gathering of believers into the Church and in a future universal gathering of people from all tribes, peoples, and tongues in the new earth.

    To say this is to ignore the clear teaching of Romans 9-11 THAT SAYS GOD IS NOT DONE WITH THE JEW

    THE ONLY FOLK THAT DENY THIS ARE SAM AND THE SDA CHURCH
    Ah lie?

  205. A somewhat cynical but also amusing definition of a specialist in scientific endeavour or indeed the pursuit of any form of knowledge or research, is that he learns more and more about less and less until he ultimately reaches a zenith where he knows everything about nothing.

    GP seems well on the way.

  206. Georgie Porgie

    Thank you most kindly INkwell , Sir.
    But canst thou add anything of substance to the debate Sir?

  207. The DLP is just not engaging young people on the fiscal crisis it has manufactured because it feels that they do not have any sensible ideas. Instead, it feels that young people are only interested in cell phones, fetes and loud ZR music.

    Exactly what plan does the government has to fight youth unemployment? Absolutely None!!!

    With the economy experiencing a fiscal crisis and still in recession–where is the plan to rescue it?

    The acting Prime Minister now says: “Be patient.” Does that mean a trademark DLP crash programme on jobs is on the way? If so — that sounds like unsustainable political hush money to me.

  208. No, GP, I readily bow to your omniscience.

    I did, however make an observation earlier, before TMB incurred your wrath and caused you to piss on him from a height:

    “I ‘m not much of a biblical scholar, but if every time the Jews displease God by becoming arrogant and overbearing, he punishes them to bring them back in line, I’m wondering if it isn’t time again.

    Maybe it isn’t that end time is here, it may just be that its crying time for the chosen ones again because they haven’t learnt their lesson.

    Who will He use this time…Ahmadinejad?”

    Would you care to comment on that observation?

  209. Imagine!

    Two and a half years after telling young people that it will hit the ground running on their behalf – the DLP is now holding a fete- instead of explaining why it has not kept its promise to the young people of this country

  210. Georgie Porgie

    Mr Inkwell Sir

    Please kindly note that TMB has NOT incurred my wrath NOR AM I pissing on him from a height

    He hasreally caused me great mirth, and I am just giving another view:

    Re
    “I ‘m not much of a biblical scholar, but if every time the Jews displease God by becoming arrogant and overbearing, he punishes them to bring them back in line, I’m wondering if it isn’t time again. Maybe it isn’t that end time is here, it may just be that its crying time for the chosen ones again because they haven’t learnt their lesson. Who will He use this time…Ahmadinejad?”

    Man you got the wrong man for that question, man

    That is a quetion for a judge like Bush Tea or Techie or one of them fellas man.

    Terrence might even wake up his mentor and professor SAM. What do you think? Lol

    Would you care to comment on that observation?

    It seems that a clash with Iran is inevitable soon though.

  211. GP
    I am disappointed that you have chosen not to offer an opinion on the possible situation I suggested. It tells me that I may well be right.

    I have another situation that I can’t get anybody to explain though I put it forward for help in another thread. Perhaps I can induce you to comment on this one… in all seriousness.

    “The Jews have a very serious problem. If Jesus is the son of God and the Jews are God’s chosen people and the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God, then God help the Jews, for God would be seriously pissed. You see the problem?

    Actually God has a serious problem too. If Jesus is really the son of God and the Jews are really God’s chosen people, and the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God, what the heck is God to do? You see the problem?

    No wonder we have a SNAFU.”

  212. Georgie Porgie

    Inky man I tell you that the Jews and Iran will soon have a go man.
    The eschatologists consider Iran and Russia to be the Kings of the North as predicted by Ezekiel so it is not IF they will be at war but WHEN! LOL

    re “The Jews have a very serious problem. If Jesus is the son of God and the Jews are God’s chosen people and the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God, then God help the Jews, for God would be seriously pissed. You see the problem?

    1 Jesus is the Son of God but this is not dependent on the Jews behavior
    2 We know from Matthew’s gospel especially that the Jews rejected Jesus. We know too that the remnant who had returned to Jerusalem in the time of Zerubbabel were whipped by Titus in AD 70 and that since then the Jews were subjected to many attrocities . as a result

    So there is no problem there
    God has always had problems with the Jews since he brought them out of Egypt I once traced this through the OT in a paper entitled God was able to take the Jews out of Egypt but he was unable to remove Egypt from the Jews with respect to the cuisine culture or the calf worship.

    If you read the OT well you will see that the Jews suffered much for this, and that during the time they spent in the land from the time of Joshua to Zedekiah, they enjoyed peace and prosperity only for relatively short periods during the rules of a handful of good kings.

    So they have always suffered for thier idolatry stiff neckness and unbelief. They are still in unbelief today.

    God dont have any more problem than you or I would have with one of our rebellious wayward “one way” children. Onlydifference is that God can deal with it. He has dealt with the Jews and he still dealing with them. It cant be in a land that is constantly under attack and when all the nations hate you and you are surrounded by your enemies, and your friends rerady to abandon you etc.

    What you think.

    There is no problem Inky ma boy. God got these people under control. As he has done in the past he is, or will , or can use other nations to judge or punish them.
    It has been done before.

    But always remember a son is a son, and sons belong in the “fathers house” even if only as hired servants LOL

    The OT scriptures always in putting foward the concept of the day of the Lord i.e the time when God will judge, always states that there is sorrow and sadness before joy., The Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble still lies ahead for the Jews man. It wont be easy/

    Check the OT man. Its all there man. We might be alive to see it all play out. Hope this helps a bit

    But there is no problem Sir God has it under control

    its like when your momma didnt mek no fuss wid you when you was a little boy. She knew you had to come home sometime to go to sleep LOL Then you realized who was really in charge man.

  213. Yes, GP, your last has helped considerably..looks like you might agree with me that He might be using Iran…even if you don’t want to say so…what an irony

    Re: “The Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble still lies ahead for the Jews man. It wont be easy/”

    Do the Jews know this?? It don’t look so. Or do they in fact have a death wish? That may explain a lot of things, the way they keep goading and jucking everybody, goading and jucking the US, goading and jucking the Palestinians, goading and jucking…even God. They bin goading Iran, but if they risk a juck, man, Ahmadinejad gine piss on them from a height..and you know what I mean by that.

  214. Georgie Porgie

    Inkwell

    Glad to be of some help.

    I cant say for sure that he will be using Iran now or next. But as I said eschatologists believe that Iran once Persia and Russia (Gog & Magog) are the Kings of the North of Ezekiel’s predictions. So we know that there will be a conflagration at some time. It might be immediate OR later. Or it might be now AND later

    You ask if the Jews know of the Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble. I cant tell you that. But I can tell you that they ought to know. Remember that these people are still in unbelief, and are probably leaning to their own understanding, as we are all prone to do in our lives from time to time, and not caring about the Word.

    But in the Olivet Discourse Jesus points out what they ought to do at that time. What is very important to appreciate about the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24 that Jesus ratifies Daniel’s prediction about the abomination of desolation when antichrist will break the peace treaty to be set up with Israel, and the section of the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble will occur .

    I don’t think that the Jews fear Ahmadinejad, man. I think that they are in some ways confident about dealing with him. They think we have been able to survive for 62 years against the odds and we will continue to do so. Maybe some believe that God will help them as promised in the OT scriptures , even if they don’t really fully believe them.

    That is why my attitude tends to be just patiently watch and see it all unfold.
    I can comment only on what the scriptures say the end will be. To me that seems to be very very clear

  215. GP, I have to respect your knowledge and the strength of your belief, but I am curious about the enabling role being played by the US. Israel (and the Jews) would not be where they are (I mean having the ability to thumb their noses at the rest of the world and repel Arab attacks), without the backing of the US. The prophesy didn’t say anything about this, did it?

    If for whatever reason the US had to withdraw its support, $3 billion a year and the vetoing of every UN resolution seeking to rein in Israel, where would they be?

  216. Georgie Porgie

    Inky
    The US is not ever named in Bible prophesy, and the USA has no place in Bible prophesy at the end times, as far as eschatologists are concerned However, it seems that the USA has indeed been backing Israel.. It is thought that there are a large number of Jews in the USA with economic and political clout.

    Some folk believe that the so called “super power” USA must be weakened or lose their clout for the events of the eschaton to happen. But this is not indicated in Scripture anyway, even though many folk seem to think so.

    I don’t know if the UN can rein in Israel, but it seems that the USA is set to abandon them. But if you believe the Word God is still in control, and no one can touch them unless or until he allows it. You might not agree with this, but this is what I think.

    I don’t know if you know of the prophesy that they will find oil or if you know that a lot of drilling is going on over there. Some folk now think that if they find oil that this might contribute to the brokering of the false peace treaty at the beginning of the Tribulation. These are some of the speculations. You may find this interesting or maybe not. I wont be dogmatic about this.

  217. GP, as I said , I’m not much of a biblical scholar, but I don’t understand how the US could not be mentioned in the prophesy if the prophesy is to be taken seriously.

    Its like discussing the outcome of the 2010 world cup, but saying that nobody’s ever heard of Brazil. Makes no sense.

  218. This debate and the one on the other blog easily reminds BU of the reason Doughlin broke away from the SDA Church in Barbados and fired up his own Church.

    His view is simple, God is not a vengeful God.

  219. Georgie Porgie

    You see Inky it does not matter if you understand or not LOL
    After all the USA was just set up by God to do a job. After its time its done. God sets up nations and he takes them down The USA is not in Daniel’s or Ezekiel’s prophesies of the end time (or any other prophesies) because God does not think the USA is as important as you or others think it is, or they think themselves.

    We have to ask who are the kings of the north the kings of the east . the kings of the west the kings of the south etc

    USA is clearly on the way out, man watch and see. They are going the way of all the previous civilizations. Analyze their behavior patterns

    David do you know Elliot at all? I can not see him surviving in many churches of any denomination in Barbados. He is an exceptionally brilliant man – always was. I cant see him being led by the morons that tend to run churches in Bim, regardless to what his view is about God. I don’t necessarily agree with all his Theology, but he is worthy of respect. He is in the top drawer in Medicine too. He has also remained very simple and humble in my view

  220. Ind intonkwell

    GP,

    Re: “The USA is not in Daniel’s or Ezekiel’s prophesies of the end time (or any other prophesies) because God does not think the USA is as important as you or others think it is, or they think themselves.”

    That argument simply does not wash. How do you assume to know what God thinks. Without the US, Israel surely would have been ground into the desert sand by the Arab hordes opposing its existence. The fighter aircraft, the tanks, the armoured personnel carriers, the attack helicopters, the surface to air missiles, the air to air missiles, the surface to surface missiles, the air to ground missiles, the M16 automatic rifles, the $3 billion a year, which are used to telling effect against the stones thrown by Palestinian youth (and the occasional home made rocket launched by Hamas supporters) were and are critical to its continued existence.

    So don’t tell me it doesn’t matter if I understand. Are you so comfortable in your belief that you are able to rationalize anything? Its easy to say, “God set it up” when there is no evidence to support it. You have been one to quote extensively from the OT to support your positions. Why not now?

  221. GP, I only just read TMB’s submission, quoting from his mentor, professor and friend, the late Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, SDA scholar.

    BTW, I have since 2001, two of Bacchiocchi’s books, given me by an SDA friend, “From Sabbath to Sunday’ and ‘The Sabbath Under Crossfire’ Sam’s penchant for research was amazing, yet, having spent so much time at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, he still fails in his quest in defending the Sabbatarian position of the SDA church, which is aptly summed up in the very last sentence of his 369 page book “From Sabbath to Sunday”

    “We might say, therefore, that Paul REJECTED the Sabbath as a means of salvation but accepted it as a shadow pointing to the substance which belongs to Christ.” emphasis added.

    Ellen G. White, obviously would not agree with Sam, nor Paul!

    However, I would like to address one of the points Terence quoted from Sam, which is used by anti-dispensationalists, to completely misrepresent the position of Dispensationalism.

    “Dispensationalists interpret the Old and New covenants as representing “TWO” different plans of salvation, for two different people – Israel and the church.”

    “In other words , God has not only two different plans of salvation but also two different people.”

    This IS a complete MISREPRESENTATION of the Dispensationlists view.

    I will only tonight, give a bried excert from that scholar par excellence, Professor Charles C. Ryrie, A.B., Haverford College; Th.M. and Th.D; Dallas Theological Seminary; Ph.D., University of Edinburgh., Litt.D., Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, has written twenty-eight books that have sold more than 1.5 million copies worldwide, in his great work, Dispensationalism, Revised and Expanded.

    Salvation In Dispensationalism.

    “Without doubt the most frequently heard objection against dispensationalism is that it supposedly teaches several ways of salvation. In particular, dispensationalists are said to teach salvation by works in some dispensations and salvation by grace in others. This is a very serious charge and must be examined carefully.” (p.105)

    “The charge that dispensationalism teaches multiple ways of salvation is repeated with the regularity of a dripping faucet.”

    The Reply.

    “The positive teaching of dispensational writers is that salvation IS ALWAYS through God’s grace. Chafer asserted this position clearly:

    “Are there two ways by which one many be saved? In reply to this question it may be stated that salvation of whatever specific character IS ALWAYS the work of God on behalf of man and NEVER a work of man in behalf of God. This is to assert that God NEVER saved any one person or group of persons on any other ground than that righteous freedom to do so which the Cross of Christ secured. There is, therefore, but ONE WAY to be saved and that is by the power of God made possible through the sacrifice of Christ.”

    Ryrie then quotes from another dispensationalist:

    “William Pettingill, another older dispensationalist, also declared clearly:

    ‘Salvation has ALWAYS been, as it now is, purely a gift of God in response to faith. The dispensational tests served to show man’s utter helplessness, in order to bring him to faith, that he might be saved by grace through faith plus NOTHING.” (Ibid., p. 105) emphasis added.

    There is nothing more unscholarly than one supposed scholar, wilfully misrepsenting another scholar’s position.

    Ryrie’s book, is one of, if not the most thoroughly written treatise on Dispensationalism today. He is very gracious to all of his opponents, and as a highly acclaimed theologian, Dr. Ryrie addresses the crucial issue from the perspective of classic dispensationalism. He confronts the views of covenant theology, historical premillennialism, ultradispensationalism, and, in this revised edition, the increasingly popular progressive dispensationalism.

    More tomorrow from this great author and theologian, on this much misunderstood subject.

  222. GP, Elliot Douglin may be a brilliant man in medicine and other areas of its kind, and though he broke away from the mainline SDA church, and started ‘Truth For The Final Generation’ I can assure you, he still, tenaciously holds to, and teaches weekly on Radio, throughout the region, the essence of the false doctrine of Ellen G. White.

  223. GP is correct in saying that the USA is not mentioned in God’s Word, the Bible, in so far as other nations, identified as kings of the North, South and so on are mentioned. There IS a silence re America in the End-Time scenario, and judging from the way America, as a Nation, has turned its back on God, and is crumbling, on the way out, what else can GP say?

    We are warned in God’s Word, NOT to ADD, nor TAKE AWAY from His divine revelation contained therein. This is exactly what GP is doing, not ADDING to, or TAKING AWAY therefrom!

  224. The USA has been the most influential player in world geopolitics since 1941 when it entered WW11. It has almost single handedly been responsible for the emergence of Israel as the world power it now is.

    How can it NOT have have been mentioned or foreseen in any credible set of prophesies covering Jewish geopolitics and the fulfillment of its biblical destiny?

    What am I missing?

  225. @ Inkwell

    What am I missing?
    ***********************
    …you are assuming that because GP and Zoe say so means that it IS so……

    Remember, these two are yet to explain to the Technician why God would have created the Devil (who we all seem to agree is the cause of ALL of the grief that fuels this and other blogs….)

    Wha’ cuhdear, If they cant explain that!
    ….you expect them to know bout the USA?

  226. BT,

    I am just trying to learn. Maybe my questions, if they can’t answer them, will put a little doubt in their minds, a little dent in their certainty and create a little room for consideration of the opinions of others.

    I for one am not convinced that there is such entity as the devil. But what do I know.

  227. Georgie Porgie

    Ind intonkwell // June 18, 2010 at 10:08 PM
    GP,
    Re: “The USA is not in Daniel’s or Ezekiel’s prophesies of the end time (or any other prophesies) because God does not think the USA is as important as you or others think it is, or they think themselves.”

    I don’t assume to know what God thinks but the USA or the UK or Spain or Portugal or Canada etc are simply not mentioned in ANY OT Scripture concerning the eschaton. Nor is there any veiled suggestion that there are

    Re That argument simply does not wash. How do you assume to know what God thinks. Without the US, Israel surely would have been ground into the desert sand by the Arab hordes opposing its existence. The fighter aircraft, the tanks, the armoured personnel carriers, the attack helicopters, the surface to air missiles, the air to air missiles, the surface to surface missiles, the air to ground missiles, the M16 automatic rifles, the $3 billion a year, which are used to telling effect against the stones thrown by Palestinian youth (and the occasional home made rocket launched by Hamas supporters) were and are critical to its continued existence.

    So what? Read the OT Nations rise and nations fall. God raised up the USA as a super powwr after the last world war and he can and is right before our eyes TAKING THEM DOWN. HE RAISED UP GERMANY AND BRITAIN AND SPAIN IN ITS TIMER EGYPT IN ITS TIME GRRECE PERSIA BABYL)ON IN ITS TIME. Guess what? THEY ALL HAVE BEEN TAKEN DOWN. Ah lie.

    Re So don’t tell me it doesn’t matter if I understand. Why not? Do you or I or anyone have to understand for something to happen according to a Bible prediction? Check out the details in which say the predictions of the first coming were fulfilled. Calculate the probability that it should have been so accurately fulfilled, and then tell me that you understand.

    Re Its easy to say, “God set it up” when there is no evidence to support it. Read the prophesies of Daniel on the Medes and Persians succeeding Babylon to be followed by Greece and then by the Romans and next the Revived Roman Empire and see if you don’t see a trend? Tell me who took out Egypt at the Sea or Reeds and set up Israel I David and Solomon’s time? Who took them down?

    Re You have been one to quote extensively from the OT to support your positions. Why not now? I cant support the position that the USA wont be taken out or that they wont figure in the end times because THEY JUST DON’T APPEAR IN THE OT. Even the most patriotic and partisan American Bible scholars KNOW and TEACH that the USA wont be figuring at the eshaton.

    The OT speaks of Persia (Iran) Gog & Magog (Russia) and the Kings of the East

    Who you think the Kings of the East are man? Cant you see them raising their head? Don’t you know that they hold much of America’s debt. Cant you see that America cant bark at them.

    The OT gives no inkling that USA will feature in the eschaton.
    Just as you think that they cant be put down, so did mighty Babylon, and Assyria and Egypt, and the Medes & Persians, and the Greeks and the Romans and the Brits once boasted that the sun does not set on the British Empire. That is no longer true. Who is the USA Sir? We see them dwindling daily before our eyes. And as a people THEY KNOW IT. I watch them moan and groan about it daily on tv.

  228. DISPENSATIONALISM.

    As Professor Ryrie so correctly says:

    “All writers, of whatever theological persuasion, are sensitive to the antithetical nature of law and grace, and at the same time they all desire to maintain the doctrine of salvation by grace at all times. Both emphases are necessary, for there is an antithesis between the law and grace ( or what do John 1:17, Rom. 6:14, and Gal, 3:23 mean?) and salvation has always been by grace.” (p.111).

    The Display of Grace Under the Law.

    “The second question that needs to be considered is, What grace was there under the law? Do dispensationalists really teach that grace was present during the economy of the Mosaic Law?”

    “In another book, I have pointed out six ways grace was displayed under the Mosaic economy. A brief summary of these will suffice to show that God did manifest grace during that dispensation, and to answer the charge that dispensationalism teach that grace was veiled under the Mosaic economy.”

    1. Grace was displayed by God’s electing of Israel. “This was an act of unmerited favor. It brought with it certain promises that made available to the individual Israelite a multitude of blessings” (Lev. 26: 4-8; deut. 7:14-16).

    2. Grace was displayed in God’s frequent restoration of His sinning people. “The law had not even reached the people before it had been broken, and yet God, because of His grace, did not cast them off. During the conquest of Canaan, in the lives of David and Solomon, and even during the captivities, God’s grace was never absent from His people” (Jer. 31: 20; Hos. 2:19).

    3. The giving of the new covenant, which was announced during the law period, was also a display of grace. “The promise of a new age was given during the time when the law lay broken and trampled beneath the feet of the people who had proved themselves unworthy in every way” (Jer. 31:32).

    4. God displayed His grace under the law by the enablement He gave. “Dispensationalists have often pictured the law as a period when enablement was completely lacking. It is true that there was a sharp contrast between the enabling under the law and the work of the Holy Spirit today (John 14:17), but it is not accurate to say there was no enabling under the law. The Spirit indwelt many (Dan. 4:8; 1 Peter 1:11) and came upon many others for special power (Ex. 28:3; Jugd. 3:10; 1 Sam 10:9-10), but there was no guarantee that He would permanently or universally indwell God’s people as He does today.”

    5. It was during the period of the law that God revealed Himself experientially to His people as Yahweh. “The name is associated with many specific acts of God’s grace toward His people (Ps. 143:11; Jer. 14:21).

    6. The great covenant with David was during the Mosaic economy and its very institution was an act of great grace on God’s part. “The steadfast loving-kindness of God (hesed) is linked with the Abrahamic covenant (Jer. 31:3), with the Mosaic covenant (Ex. 34:6-7), with the new covenant (Jer. 31:3), and with the Davidic covenant (Isa. 55:3). The covenant was not only established on God’s ‘besed’, but David was assured that God’s ‘besed’ would not be thwarted and that the covenant would not be altered (Ps. 89:33-44). A promise like this was one of the most evident displays of God’s grace.”

    “These displays of grace under the law did not lessen the exacting demands of that law. The law did not cease to be law simply because God was gracious during that economy. Neither does this display of grace during that period lessen the proper antithesis between the Mosaic economy and the economy introduced by Christ. The Bible reveals the antithesis and at the same time asserts these displays of grace during the Law dispensation. No system of theology can ignore either emphasis, contradictory as they may seem, even in the interest of theological logic.”

    “With his usual insight Erich Sauer has caught these aspects of law and grace, and particularly grace under law:’

    ‘Therefore even in the Old Testament the prophets and psalmists exult (Ps. 32:11; 33:1; 68:4) over the blessings and lifegiving effects of the Law. For them Law was not only exposure of guilt and a leading on to despair (comp. Rom.7), but “joy of heart” (Ps. 19;8), “delight” (Ps. 119:47; 36:9), “bliss” (Ps. 32:1).

    “Knowledge of sin,” says Paul (Rom. 3:20):
    Of “crowning with grace” speaks David (Ps. 103:4).

    “The letter kills,” says the apostle (11 Cor. 3:6):
    “The law is refreshing [quickening], says the
    psalmist (Ps. 19:8).

    “Miserable man!” is read in the epistle to the
    Romans (rom. 7:24):

    “Blessed is the man,” says the Psalter (Ps. 1:1;
    32:1).
    Of the “curse,” the one-time Pharisee speaks
    (Gal. 3:13); “The Lord bless thee,” says the high
    priest (Num. 6:24).

    The Dispensational Position.

    “This dispensationalist’s answer to the question of the relation of grace and law is this: The basis of salvation in EVERY AGE is the death of Christ; the requirement for salvation in EVERY AGE is FAITH; the object of faith in EVERY AGE is God; the ‘content’ of faith changes in the various dispensations. It is this last point, of course, that distinguishes dispensationalism from covenant theology, but it is not a point to which the charge of teaching two ways of salvation can be attached. It simply recognizes the obvious fact of progressive revelation. When Adam looked upon the coats of skins with which God had clothed him and his wife, he did not see what the believer today sees looking back on the cross of Calvary. And neither did other Old Testament saints see what we can see today.” (Ibid., pp. 111,112, 113,115,). emphasis added.

    The fundamental problem with the SDA, and the late Samuele Bacchiocchi, TMB’s mentor, professor, and friend, IS, that their hermeneutics are seriously flawed, , erroneously so, a deadly admixture of, literal, figurative, allegorical interpretation; they just do NOT understand nor grasp the sound principles of Biblical hermeneutics, contextual analysis, and linguistic exegesis, hence, all this false doctrine re Israel and the church.

    No amount of doctorates, can validate what one writes, rather, it IS what one writes, that VALIDATE ones doctorates.

    Systematic theology, must be established on the sound, proven, basis of the Historic-Grammatical-Literal principle of interpretation, without which, as is clearly seen in Bacchiocchi, Israel is wiped out from the emphatic declarations, throughout the OT re their final regathering back to their ancient homeland, (1948), and strongly re-affirmed by Paul in his letter to the Romans, beyond any question of doubt whatsoever.

    As Kenneth Wuest once said:

    “There is no VICE or DEVICE of sacred hermeneutics, that so beclouds the Scriptures, as those who read Church for Israel, that the church has taken the place of Israel.”

    Wuest is absolutely correct!

  229. Georgie Porgie

    Inkwell // June 19, 2010 at 10:25 AM
    It is obvious that you do not know and that you are just trying to learn.

    And no your questions wont put doubt in my mind. If I can’t answer your question I will say so. I will agree with you when you are right. I am not here to win an argument at any cost. I w am here to share information, and be amused at those who think they can put doubt in my mind, or a little dent in my certainty or create a little room for consideration of the opinions of others, when they don’t add up LOL

    Inkwell // June 19, 2010 at 7:14 AM
    Re The USA has been the most influential player in world geopolitics since 1941 when it entered WW11. It has almost single handedly been responsible for the emergence of Israel as the world power it now is.

    SO WHAT?
    Read up on the history of the Assyrians Sir. They were the most vicious and cruel people ever seen on earth. They terrorized the then known world, until they were defeated just as predicted in Nahum Have you seen any Assyrians around recently? Don’t think so.

    The Babylonians who took them out were also drinking in their impregnable fortress when the Medes entered their city.

    Read about Petra – another impregnable fortress.

    The Medes and the Persians and the Greeks and even mighty Rome were brought to their knees. This is not fiction. You can read the history.

    SO TELL ME AGAIN? WHO IS THIS mighty player in world geopolitics since 1941, that they cant be dethroned? You see you are leaning to your own understanding and maybe you don’t believe that God rules in the affairs of men.

    You ask “How can it NOT have been mentioned or foreseen in any credible set of prophesies covering Jewish geopolitics and the fulfillment of its biblical destiny?
    What am I missing?”

    You are missing that YOU HAVE NOT READ OR STUDIED THE WORD OF GOD
    Tell me Sir. Great Britain was powerful in world geopolitics for at least 300 years. Is Great Britain mentioned in OT prophesies. Does the OT specifically mention the atrocities that would happen to the Jews at the hands of Germany?

    So why do you think that the MIGHTY MUIKANS MATTER Sir. Their time is coming to end.

    Watch them Sir today in an Ahithopel moment. With all their might they can not get together a plan to stop some oil wiping out their fishing industry in the Gulf! I wonder who has turned their counsel to naught Sir
    “The greatest country in the world ever !“ they say. And they cant protect their borders.

    To answer your audacious question again
    How can it NOT have been mentioned or foreseen in any credible set of prophesies covering Jewish geopolitics and the fulfillment of its biblical destiny?

    Do you not think that the God of heaven knew that a time would come when people fleeing from religious persecution would flee to what is now USA?

    Do you not think that the God of heaven knew that a time would come when these people whom he blessed and raised up (just like he raised up the Jews) would turn his back on Him and that he would have to judge them?

    Who do you thin k is responsible for the aid that goes to Israel from the USA? Is it not very rich and powerful JEWS?
    When the USA turns its back on Israel and as the USA continues to fail and flounder, do the think that the wealthy Jews who controls so much in the USA will hang around this God forsaken place.

    Sir Inky Sir. Do you yet start to see all what you are missing? GOD IS STILL ON THE THRONE WHETHER YOU OR I UNDERSTAND OR NOT. Feel free to disagree with my silly perceptions.

  230. @Bush Tea, Man, you’re a STRANGER to the TRUTH, you are a LIAR!!!

    On two previous threads a while back, I gave a sound Biblical and Scriptural exposition on this same stupid question re the Devil, WHO was NOT created by God, I showed from God’s Word, the Bible, that *HE* created ‘Lucifer’ the morning star, WHO through rebellion and PRIDE, sought to lift himself UP ABOVE his creator, WAS cast down along with one third of the other angelic host, and LUCIFER, then became the Devil.

    You never countered any of my post re this issue, because you CANNOT; yet, every so often, you come here on BU, deceitfully and vindictively making it sound as through I never asnwered the foolish and stupid question, you are a LIAR!

  231. Georgie Porgie

    Zoe

    I am well aware that Elliott is a SDA in and out. But unlike our resident bar raiser who comes here boasting about whom he knows and his books Elliott is truly exceptionally brilliant, and was highly repected by his peers at HC and at UWI medical school.

  232. GP, Sadly, brilliance in medicine, is NO gateway to understanding Biblical Truth!

    I wrote Douglin a few years ago, and personally delivered it to his beautiful church in St. Thomas; I was given by one of his associates a number of his publications; even saw for myself, Ellen.G. White’s Volumes, right there on Douglin’s book shelf, whom he still quotes regularly on his radio broadcast.

    He is so sincere, but, Oh, so sincerely wrong!

  233. Georgie Porgie

    Zoe

    Man stop reinventing the wheel.man. Dont you think that I know that brilliance in medicine, is NO gateway to understanding Biblical Truth!

    Spend your time in stead putting holes in the nonsense that the raiser of the bar has put on this thread.

    Whatever his theological position Elliott is a brilliant man. And I celebrate that! His being an Adventist does not detract from his brillance and other good characteristics.

  234. Serious Zoe,……… how old are you?
    …surely you are in your teens…. only children behave as immaturely as you do -without someone quickly referring them to the Black Rock institution for tablets.

    Do you think that because you post some long winded nonsense and quote enough scriptures to turn everyone off from reading your rant that you “.. gave a sound Biblical and Scriptural exposition on this same stupid question re the Devil, WHO was NOT created by God,”

    First of all Bush Tea said that you did not explain to TECHNICIAN…. you need not explain to me….I know EXACTLY why God created the devil.

    Secondly, your idiotic response that the devil was NOT created by God does not deserve a comment. You think God is an idiot?

    What!!?? …..he did not know it would turn out so??!!
    He got tricked???
    His grand plan backfired???

    My boy…
    The creation of the devil was CENTRAL to God’s overall plan for life on earth.
    In the same way that he was responsible for the birth of those that he have chosen like John the Baptist, Moses, and even the Bushman, he was fully responsible for the Devil.

    Your arrogance is really much too childish for you to be taken seriously. You seem to think that because you read nuff books you somehow have the right to talk down to others… in fact, those who really KNOW- tend to be the most humble among us….

    ….do you EVER consider the example set by your supposed mentor – Jesus?

    @ Inkwell said….
    “Maybe my questions, if they can’t answer them, will put a little doubt in their minds, a little dent in their certainty and create a little room for consideration of the opinions of others.”
    ***********************************************************************************************
    Good luck Inkwell!!
    ….been tried unsuccessfully many times before, but you may have the trick…..

    Should you succeed, we may actually be able to get some useful interactions – given the sheer volume of their imbibed research…. I suspect that if we could add that knowledge to some basic common sense and genuine humility and respect for others, BU could become a leading Think Tank.

  235. @Doc GP

    Whatever his theological position Elliott is a brilliant man. And I celebrate that! His being an Adventist does not detract from his brillance and other good characteristics.

    If as your quote suggest you believe that Doughlin is a brilliant man the fact that he practices the SDA doctrine must mean he is not that brilliant as far as dividing the word is concerned.

  236. Georgie Porgie

    David
    I am not dealing with Elliot’s theology Sir. I have said that over and over. His brilliance and his theology are two different things.

  237. Seems like “brilliant” minds have no credence when our resident genii disagree with their interpretation of these ancient scripts.

    What a joke, the creme de la creme of our small island, slugging it out who scores most points over some purported desert tales.

    Rip yourselves apart boys.

    You’ve only had two or three thousand years to get the story right,

    Still you disagree, as you will in 2013, 2033 and 3033.

  238. @ Bush Tea, Yes, I’ll quote my mentor, The Lord Jesus Christ, when He had reason to address people like you:

    “And He said to them. “Go, tell that FOX, (like you BT!) “Behold I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow and the third day…” (Luke 13:32)
    emphasis added.

    Again, hear Jesus speaking to people like you, BT:

    “My word has NO PLACE in you…You are of your father the DEVIL, and the desires of YOUR father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does NOT stand in the truth, because there is NO truth in him. When he speaks a LIE ( just like you BT!) he speaks from his own resources, (just like you BT!) for he is a LIAR (just like you BT!) and the father of it.” (John 8: 37b, 44) emphasis added.

    Go and have another Bush Bath, Bush Man, with your father and his demons, and polish up on your LIES!

  239. @David (BU) & GP, Elliot Douglin, just like Samuele Bacchiocchi, both brilliant , and both of them, spewed forth, and as Douglin continues to, weekly on the Radio, a maze of utter false SDA doctrine mixed in with some Bible truth, DEADLY man!!!

    GP, man, I was NOT reinventing the wheel, no way, nor was I attempting to teach you what you already know, no way, man, its just that I detest when people like Douglin, who have a captive audience like he does, and THEN, with his brilliant mind, over and over again, on many radio stations, terribly MISLEADS large numbers of people with some Biblical truth, LACED with unbiblical, heresy, just like Terence does in quoting from Sam Bacchiocchi.

    You can celebrate his medical brilliance all you like, at the end of the day, God knows how many people he’ll mislead down the path of perdition, with his SDA false doctrine.

  240. Georgie Porgie

    Zoe
    Man get back on point nuh

    Exegete and explain Romans 9-11 or some thing so nuh.

    Advance the discussion nuh

    You dont have to play at every ball, man

  241. @ Zoe
    “Go, tell that FOX, (like you BT!) …”
    ****************************************
    ….you know Mr Zoe, it is always so enlightening and stimulating to discuss these matters with you….
    …you certainly have a way of projecting the image of ‘love and humility’….. must be that business of your ‘being saved…’

    No doubt you are also aware that your ‘mentor’ also said that many shall come in his name, calling him their mentor, and shall deceive many others – to their destruction….

    …but you could never be one of that ‘many’ could you? …cause having learned from your previous life as a catholic, you now have the real truth….

    What I find most amazing about you is the fact that you are able to detail with such vehemence the errors and faults of every other faith like the SDA, the Mormons, Catholics, Anglicans etc etc – and yet you appear to be totally incapable if defending your own personal position without resort to insults and innuendo….this is a clear sign of insecurity….

    …as I said before, this is all forgivable if you are under 18 years of age.

  242. Bush

    I likes talking to you ol’ man but that ain’ gun happen iffen you chose to tek on Christians the way you have been doing these recent days

  243. Brilliance….. only in one area? The BU tag team is hilarious!

  244. @ BAFBFP

    Ha Ha HAH

    Man what you want the Bushman to do!!?? I was watching de football and had some time on hand……
    You been in hiding recently; MME gone underground; Not Saved busy putting licks in his dictionary, and the other bloggers ain’t have no time with a nobody from the bush…..
    …that leaves the trinity….

    but we still cool right…??

  245. Georgie Porgie

    To the Betzpaenic who opined….” Brilliance….. only in one area? The BU tag team is hilarious!”

    Question Sir. Are you brilliant in even one area Sir.

    How many folk that you know that are brilliant in even ONE area, far less more than one.

    It is so easy to engage mouth or fingers without engaging brain. ………..especially when one is BETZPAENIC!

    Can you Mr Betzpaenic one contribute anything of substance to the discussion?

    BT has asked for some useful interactions – some basic common sense and genuine humility and respect for others, so that BU could become a leading Think Tank.

  246. Dawg eat Dog

    My God there are so many hypocrites on this blog who would want to a christian

  247. Georgie Porgie

    Can you define hypocrite Sir?
    Can you ellucidate the etymology of the word hypocrite Sir?

    Will you let hiding behind those whom you call hypocrites stop you from being a Christian

    Do you think that your desire not to be a Christian will affect anything Sir?

    People are accepting Christ all over the world everyday.

  248. Can you, GP, tell me what betzpaenic means? And it is ELUCIDATE not ELLUCIDATE, you semi-literate.

  249. Georgie Porgie

    Last week our illustrious bar raiser and author told us erroneously that when the Jews returned to Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity that the end time prophecies concerning them were fulfilled. He even brought Sam his professor and mentor to support him.

    However, they both forgot two things. Only aboput 20 % of the Jews who went into exhile returned under Ezra Zerubbabel and Nehemiah , and this group were AGAIN evicted in AD 70 by Titus of Rome. Further more

    Sammy and his student the bar raiser, apparently never ever got around to reading Micah chapter four- which seems to be so important that’s its contents comes before chapter 5 parts of which you have often heard read at Christmas time, as it is a prediction concerning the first coming!

    BUT IN THE LAST DAYS IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT THE MOUNTAIN OF THE HOUSE OF THE LORD SHALL BE ESTABLISHED IN THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAINS, AND IT SHALL BE EXALTED ABOVE THE HILLS; AND PEOPLE SHALL FLOW UNTO IT [MIC. 4:1].

    Notice that this fourth chapter opens with the little conjunction “but,” which is a connective that contrasts it to the last verse of chapter 3: “Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.”

    You see the predictions of chapter three came to pass when the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem. BUT clearly that was not the end of the story, because after the exile the POST EXHILIC PROPHETS HAGGAI MALACH & ZECHARIAH HAD A LOT MORE TO SAY ABOUT THE END TIMES. And Micah seems to have a lot to say here in chater four. YOU DECIDE! OK?

    IN the phrase “But in the last days” Micah is moving now beyond the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar and the destruction under Titus the Roman, and beyond all other destructions, to the last days.

    In the Old Testament, “the last days” is a technical term with a very definite meaning. Our Lord Jesus called it “the tribulation, the great one” (see Matt. 24:21) we designate it as the Great Tribulation Period, which begins “the last days.”

    Then after the Tribulation (which will be a brief period of approximately seven years), the Lord Jesus Christ will return to the earth. In fact, His coming will end the Tribulation Period, and He Himself will establish His kingdom upon the earth.

    “the last days” embrace the Tribulation, the return of Christ to the earth, and the millennial kingdom of Christ. Therefore, when Micah says “in the last days,” he has moved out and beyond all local situations, and he is looking way down into the future.

    The darker it became in Israel, the brighter the future appeared. And when Israel hit bottom, God let them see the light out yonder in the future.

    “The mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains.” The fact is that the city of Jerusalem is located upon a hill. Not only does Scripture make that clear, but all you have to do is to take a look at it. Micah is talking about Jerusalem, as we shall see. And the millennial kingdom will be centered there. Jerusalem will be the capital of the earth.

    “And people shall flow unto it.” The word flow indicates spontaneous movement—from the desire in their hearts WE ARE VERY SURE THAT AT THE END OF THE BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY THAT EVEN THE JEWS HAD NO DESIRE TO RETURN TO JERUSALEM AS PREDICTED HERE. Only an estimated 20 % went back at that time, only to be skittled out in Ad 70 by Titus. Ah lie?

    WE KNOW too .. that this prophecy of Micah’s is not being fulfilled today and will not be fulfilled until the Messiah comes

    And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem [Mic. 4:2].

    Here is another chapter, among the many chapters in the prophetic books of the Bible, which makes it clear that the present return of the Jews to the land of Israel is not THE CLIMACTIC fulfillment of prophecybecause in this day in which we live the nations of the world are not going to Jerusalem to hear from the Lord!

    Neither is the Word of the Lord going forth from Jerusalem. NOR HAS ANY OF THIS HAPPENED IN THE PAST! Ah lie?

    There are today several Christian missionaries in the city of Jerusalem who themselves are Jewish, but who have been persecuted for presenting Christ and the Word of God. Believe me, the Word of God is not flowing from Jerusalem!

    The Word of God is not going out from Jerusalem today. For example, no Bible society is printing Bibles in Jerusalem and sending them out to the ends of the earth! To circulate the New Testament from that place would be utterly impossible.

    The Word of God is not going forth from Jerusalem as Micah said it would do.

    The wonderful prophecies in this chapter will be fulfilled during the millennial Kingdom when Christ Himself is reigning in Jerusalem. Then the heads of the capitals of the world—Beijing, Berlin, London, Washington—will be going to Jerusalem to be taught by Christ Himself of His ways!

  250. Georgie Porgie

    And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more [Mic. 4:3].
    “And he shall judge among many people.” This again is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, when He returns to the earth the second time to reign. Imagine the nations of the world bringing their disputes to Him for arbitration! The things mentioned in this verse cannot come to pass until He does come.
    SINCE THIS DID NOT HAPPEN AT HIS FIRST ADVENT SEEMS TO BE THE FULFILLMENT OF THIS IS FUTURE. Eh?
    “They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks.” This verse appears on the building of the United Nations. This verse certainly is not being fulfilled by the United Nations! It will not be fulfilled until Christ comes.
    “Nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” Obviously, we have not come to this position and will not until the Prince of Peace is ruling. Because He is not ruling in our day, we are not to beat our swords into plowshares; we are to keep our powder dry. This is not the time to disarm. When He is reigning, we can get rid of all our protection. These prophecies that Micah is giving in chapter 4 are not for the present hour; they are for the last days. Let’s put them in their proper context.
    But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it [Mic. 4:4].
    “They shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid.” Do you want to tell me that this verse was fulfilled between the return under Ezra and company and the second sacking of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD? Do you want to tell me that this verse is being fulfilled in Israel today? In our day they are absolutely afraid.
    For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever [Mic. 4:5].
    The American Standard Version has a much better translation of this verse: “For all the peoples walk every one in the name of his god; and we will walk in the name of Jehovah our God for ever and ever.” The thought is that in the past they walked after their own gods, but in the future they are going to walk in the name of Jehovah, our God.
    In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted [Mic. 4:6].
    “In that day” reminds us that He is still speaking of the millennial kingdom.
    “Will I assemble her that halteth.” Who is this whom God describes as halting, driven out, and afflicted? It is the nation Israel. Notice that He says, “That I have afflicted.” It looks as if God takes the blame for that which has happened to the nation Israel.
    And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever [Mic. 4:7].
    “I will make her that halted a remnant.” Never throughout the long history of Israel did 100 percent of the nation worship God. Always only a remnant was faithful to Him. God always preserved a remnant. Actually, it was a remnant of those which came out of Egypt that entered the land. Practically the entire generation that came out of Egypt died in the wilderness. It was their children who entered the land. God preserved a remnant. Even in Elijah’s day God had a faithful remnant. Elijah was very pessimistic. He cried, “Lord, I only am left” (see I Kings 19:10). But God told him, “You aren’t the only one; I have seven thousand in these mountains who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Because they were hiding from Ahab and Jezebel, Elijah didn’t know about them (And I am of the opinion that in our day there are more believers than we think there are. There are many believers like those seven thousand. Although we don’t hear about them, they are true believers.) Also, there was a remnant of believers at the coming of Christ; although the leaders of the nation rejected Him and had Him crucified, there was a remnant that received Him. Later, on the Day of Pentecost, a great company turned to Christ; yet it was a remnant. It always has been a remnant. Coming down to our day, there is a remnant even in the church that bears His name. Although I have made the statement that I think there are more believers in our world than we realize, it is also true that in the church there is only a remnant of true believers in Christ.
    Also in our day there is a remnant of believers among the people of Israel—probably more than we realize. Yet God always has His faithful remnant. The word remnant in Scripture is very important; don’t just rush over it.
    In Micah’s day God is saying that of the afflicted ones He will make a remnant; He will regather them and make them “a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.”

  251. @ GP
    I realize that you have been so busy working on lowering the ‘bar raiser’ that you may have missed the question posed by Bagehot above;

    The men want to know the answer GP….

    Bagehot asked:
    ****************************************************************************************
    Can you, GP, tell me what betzpaenic means? And it is ELUCIDATE not ELLUCIDATE, you semi-literate.
    *****************************************************************************************
    ….just being helpful….

  252. Georgie Porgie

    BT
    When you see him tell him to Google it or try a Wicki LOl

  253. Georgie Porgie

    BT
    How can I lower the bar raiser? How can I lower him whom thou hast promoted Sir?

    I am just trying to put foward a logical argument about ” What does the Bioble really say about the Sons of Abraham?’

    To continue in Micah chapter 4.

    And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem [Mic. 4:8].

    “O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion.” God is probably addressing the land itself, informing it that its former dominion under David and Solomon will be restored, the far greater kingdom of the Messiah shall come

    . This has not happened yet; the kingdom has not come. If the people of Israel are back in their land for anything, they are back there for the Great Tribulation Period. The kingdom is still in the far future.

    MICAH PREDICTS THE NEAR FUTURE at that time to him

    At this point a cloud passes over the sun. A great many Bible scholars believe the next two verses refer to the Babylonian captivity.

    Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

    Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies [Mic. 4:9–10].

    These two verses are so specific that they could refer to nothing else but the Babylonian captivity which was coming to the southern kingdom. When Micah directs his remarks to the “daughter of Zion,” he refers to the southern kingdom of Judah. The word that interests me here is travail..

    The picture Micah gives us here is that of Nebuchadnezzar taking Jerusalem. He came to that city three times, and the third time he destroyed the temple area, left it in wrack and ruin, leveled the city, and burned it.

    The suffering of the people of Judah is described as a woman in travail, a woman with birth pangs. This had to be a brief period or the nation would not have continued to exist.

    That kind of trouble could not go on forever because the people could not have endured it. It would have been too frightful, too terrible. For this same reason the Great Tribulation Period must be brief. The Lord Jesus Christ made that clear: “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened” (Matt. 24:22).

    “Thou shalt go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon.” When Nebuchadnezzar captured the city, the remaining inhabitants fled and tried to live in the fields. Eventually they were taken captive to Babylon.

    Let me call your attention to the fact that Micah in these two verses is looking beyond the Assyrian captivity of Israel to the later captivity of Judah by Babylon.

    However, in the next breath he predicts deliverance: “There shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.” Although they shall be captives in Babylon, God will deliver them from there. We know from history that God did deliver them by the hand of Cyrus (see Isa. 44:28; 2 Chron. 36:22–23). The point that Micah is making here is that the travail and suffering of God’s people will end in joy.

    MICAH PREDICTS THE DISTANT FUTURE (this is still unfulfilled)

    Now in this closing section Micah moves ahead to the far distant future, the time of the Great Tribulation and specifically to the final war, the War (not the battle) of Armageddon.
    Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion [Mic. 4:11].

    “Many nations are gathered against thee”—the mention of many nations makes it clear that Micah has moved away from the Babylonian invasion and is speaking of something else here.

    The many nations gathered against Jerusalem are mentioned by several other prophets. For example: Joel 3; Zechariah 12 and 14; Ezekiel 38 and 39 all refer to the War of Armageddon during the Great Tribulation Period.

    But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor [Mic. 4:12].

    “They know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel.” They do not know what God is going to do. They are coming against Israel blindly, unaware that God is bringing them there for judgment.

    Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth [Mic. 4:13].

    “Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion.” The nations of the world are as sheaves for the threshing floor, and Israel will do the threshing. Today Israel is a weak nation and absolutely dependent upon other nations, but in that day they are going to be dependent upon the Lord.

    Psalm 75:6 says, “For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.” Psalm 75:7 goes on to say, “But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.” In that day help for Israel will not come from the north (Russia), or from the south (Egypt), or from the west (Europe or the United States), or from the east (China and the Arab countries). Their help will come from the Lord who made heaven and earth.

    These final three verses look forward to the war which concludes the Great Tribulation Period, the War of Armageddon.

  254. @ GP
    Man I Bush Tea feel that you should answer Bagehot question….

    Fellows beginning to feel that no such word exist, – and that you GP ‘mek it up’ to sound impressive on the blog.

    Bush Tea however does not buy that line of thought, ….as that may lead bloggers to wonder what else you have been making up in order to sound bright and impressive. (LOL)

    …..besides, we bushmen hate big words – they cause BT to keep running over to wiki – only to find that these fancy words can be replaced by a simple likkle word….. but BT can’t find a thing to replace “betzpaenic”

  255. Georgie Porgie

    You can think what ever you like.
    It will snow in hell when the jokers on BU will decide my vocabulary.
    I dont have to try to sound impressive, man.
    And I dont need to impressany one on BU

    What I find interesting is that you guys cant add anything to the discussion.

  256. Are you saying that you reserve the right to make up your own words and concepts as you deem fit then GP? …..snazzy!

    ..but does that not lead to some doubts among bloggers as to when you are ‘making up things’ and when you are teaching?

    …don’t get me wrong, Bush Tea likes creativity – but this is my first exposure to the art of making up words in the middle of a discussion without any reference to what the word actually is intended to mean….. Bzhertvilitious! (I like um too yuh!!)

    LOL – I always thought that only BAFBFP did that …. LOL ROTFLAHMB

  257. Micro Mock Engineer

    BT… a betzpaenic is someone suffering with a neocortical neuron deficiency LOL

  258. Looks like some one has been watching too many episodes of Star Trek. Maybe Mr. Spock knows the meaning.

  259. How about someone with anxiety or neurological problems .

  260. Thanks MME – I can always depend on your enlightenment – appreciated.

  261. Edmund Spencer in alluding to the avoidance of truth puts it so succinctly:-

    “There is a principle which is a bar against all information which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is condemnation before investigation”…

    No wonder Jesus refused to engage the ignorant scribes & pharisees…

  262. For a certain clique in BARBADOS* – a concerted world view can be equated to nothing more than a neighbourhood watch…

    This is fundamentally flawed thinking given that there must first be a breaking free from the shackles of small, narrow-minded island thinking; a form of symbiotic v symbolic interactive homogeneity which ex[presses] itself in terms of unilinear evolutionary theodicy but loses faces when it comes to a reasoned form of Durkheimian functional determinism…

    Smelser’s contagion theory provides a fascinating window into the behaviour of “herd” mentality, crowd behaviour and the “bully” type mentality in the playground…

    As early as 1895, Gustave Le Bon argued that a “collective mind” emerged in such situations with the conscious personality of the individual[s] members almost disappearing…

    Le Bon believed that such individuals were dominated by a single impulse to act almost identically…

    He believed that individuals are less capable of rational thought once they get caught up in the “FRENZY” of the herd and the collective mind is, in effect merely the lowest common denominator of the emotions of the respective members…

    Le Bon’s contagion theory posits that the herd mentality especially that of the acting crowd, as the product of a group “contagion” in which individuals lose much of their self-identity and self-control…

    The result can be seen in “Inhaltsverzeichnis” – an interface between aggressive dis-associative dissonance and in Barron and Lacombe’s (2005) words, a “Jekyll-and-Hyde mentality & nature”…

  263. Georgie Porgie

    Sir Terence M. Blackett Sir. Lord Raiser of Bush Tea’s Bar
    (Does that mean that you raise a security bar to enable the opening of his bar i.e rum shop?)

    Re Edmund Spencer in alluding to the avoidance of truth puts it so succinctly:-

    “There is a principle which is a bar against all information which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is condemnation before investigation”…

    What does Edmund Spencer has to do with the issue as put forward by Micah 4 Sir Bar raiser?
    What is the truth Sir? Why are you avoiding the truth? Why cant you face the truth that your theology is flawed…..and we still have Romans 9-11 held in reserve.

    You come here to impress us with whom you have read in a discussion on Bible!?
    You come here to impress us with whom you have read in a discussion on Bible which you started on the topic What did the BIBLE (not Edmund Spencer or Sam or anyone else) say about the sons of Abraham.

    Re:
    No wonder Jesus refused to engage the ignorant scribes & pharisees…
    Again INCORRECT AGAIN ERRONEOUS
    We will only reference John’s gospel. Off the top of my head check chapter 2
    Check chapter 3 Nicodemus as a ruler of the Jews and a member of the Sanhedrin had to be a Pharisee ‘Check chapter 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, need I go on?

    Have you ever read Luke 15? Or Mark 7? Who was he engaging then Sir?

    How dare you call the scribes & Pharisees ignorant, man. They are no more ignorant than you Sir. They knew the OT scriptures Sir, and we are told in Acts that after they understood the error of their way following the resurrection THAT MANY OF THE BELIEVED. Ah lie?
    Note that PAUL WAS A PHARISEE Ah lie?

    Ignorant from Latin ignoro ignorare ignoravi ignoratum to KNOW
    You are of course cognizant of that?

  264. Georgie Porgie

    Terence M. Blackett Re your junk posted at June 21, 2010 at 8:33 AM
    The extent of the bias at BU is most hilarious
    If Dictionary had posted the arrogant ignorance that you have in respect the tight bowling you are facing in which you cite all books and literature to counteract Bible facts and the logic to which you cannot respond my friends Techie and Not Saved would be all over him. And so would Bush Tea. They would all be out in force mocking you Sir.

    Buit it seems that they are GOGNIZANT not ignorant, of the fact that I can handle your up and down bowling as if it were fish cakes and bakes and a tot of ovaltine.

    Re
    For a certain clique in BARBADOS* – a concerted world view can be equated to nothing more than a neighbourhood watch…
    This is fundamentally flawed thinking given that there must first be a breaking free from the shackles of small, narrow-minded island thinking; a form of symbiotic v symbolic interactive homogeneity which ex[presses] itself in terms of unilinear evolutionary theodicy but loses faces when it comes to a reasoned form of Durkheimian functional determinism…

    When discussing What the Bible really says about the Sons of Abraham concerted world views and neighbourhood watches don’t enter the picture Sir.

    Explain how my logical presentation of the Minor Prophets and their relationship to Israel in the eschaton is “is fundamentally flawed thinking.”?

    Explain how my logical presentation of the Minor Prophets and their relationship to Israel in the eschaton requires “that there must first be a breaking free from the shackles of small, narrow-minded island thinking” and a form of symbiotic v symbolic interactive homogeneity which expresses] itself in terms of unilinear evolutionary theodicy but loses faces when it comes to a reasoned form of Durkheimian functional determinism…”
    Would you like to run that bovine excrement through Mr Hoads biodigester? We could make some useful methane and donate it top some poor person for cooking purposes. Ah lie?

    Terrence Smelser’s contagion theory provides a fascinating window into the behaviour of “herd” mentality, crowd behaviour and the “bully” type mentality in the playground…

    But the BU “herd” is not after you Sir. And the “crowd behaviour” and employment “of the “bully” type mentality in the playground” is reserved for use against the so called Trinity. You cant handle the BU “herd” man? You cant handle the BU “crowd behaviour” and employment “of the “bully” type mentality in the playground”.

    This is just GP alone trying to get you to raise the bar for trute and explain your hogwash in the light of what the Bible REALLY says about the Sons of Abraham in the eschaton, man.

  265. Georgie Porgie

    Terence M. Blackett Re your junk posted at June 21, 2010 at 8:33 AM

    Re As early as 1895, Gustave Le Bon argued that a “collective mind” emerged in such situations with the conscious personality of the individual[s] members almost disappearing…
    Le Bon believed that such individuals were dominated by a single impulse to act almost identically…
    He believed that individuals are less capable of rational thought once they get caught up in the “FRENZY” of the herd and the collective mind is, in effect merely the lowest common denominator of the emotions of the respective members…
    Le Bon’s contagion theory posits that the herd mentality especially that of the acting crowd, as the product of a group “contagion” in which individuals lose much of their self-identity and self-control…
    The result can be seen in “Inhaltsverzeichnis” – an interface between aggressive dis-associative dissonance and in Barron and Lacombe’s (2005) words, a “Jekyll-and-Hyde mentality & nature”…

    Sir Terence M. Blackett Sir. Lord Raiser of Bush Tea’s Bar
    For heaven’s sake, your efflux of bovine excrement is overwhelming the capacity of Mr Hoads biodigester to convert. Man if I had come in BNU spouting such BS BT would say that I was showing off man. Ah lie.

    No “collective mind” is emerging in this situation
    No conscious personality of the individual BU members has disappeared man.
    They are all hoping with bated breath that you can prove anything at all that I have said that is incorrect about What the Bible REALLY says about the sons of Abraham at this time and in the eschaton.

    No individuals are dominated by a single impulse to act almost identically, man. That is happening on the other thread where to a man they are at arms to debunk everything posted by Zoe and Dictionay. Ah lie? But over here one SINGLE SOLITARY SOLE SOUL is SHOWING UP YOUR STUPIDITY! Ah lie?

    Sir Terence M. Blackett Sir. Lord Raiser of Bush Tea’s Bar. I agree with Le Bon that individuals are less capable of rational thought once they get caught up in the “FRENZY” of the herd and the collective mind is, in effect merely the lowest common denominator of the emotions of the respective members… After all I have seen that on BU on several occasions against the so called BU Trinity. But you are highly favored man.

    You are a lofty author of many books whose brother is at Oxford . You have Sam as mentor and Professor and you hob nob with all these Muslim professors. In fact you were Muslim your self. You are a man with pedigree. Bush Tea is a man that does mark hard hear. So when he promote you to raise a security bar to enable the opening of his bar i.e rum shop….that means you real good man. You are a seed!
    Sir Terence M. Blackett Sir. Lord Raiser of Bush Tea’s Bar. I also agree with Le Bon’s contagion theory posits that the herd mentality especially that of the acting crowd, as the product of a group “contagion” in which individuals lose much of their self-identity and self-control… I agree man. You should see the BU herd on the go when I declared uncompromisingly that our PM would be planted on his death like other people.

    But no one would dare treat a Peer like you so Sir. It is only poor likkle GP that some think he does mek up words because they don’t know wuh the words mean that the herd would attack on BU man. You safe man. I cant even get Zoe to get out he books and tear the hogwash you come on here wid by exegeting Romans 9-11.

    Sir Terence M. Blackett Sir. Lord Raiser of Bush Tea’s Bar I agree with you that “The result can be seen in “Inhaltsverzeichnis” – an interface between aggressive dis-associative dissonance and in Barron and Lacombe’s (2005) words, a “Jekyll-and-Hyde mentality & nature”…

    But tell me Sir, when the highly self acclaimed BU judge, don’t know simple words like betzpaenia, you think that the rest of the crowd care about “Inhaltsverzeichnis” and
    aggressive dis-associative dissonance?

    Stop trying to prove that you are a big intellectual man. Defend your position. Tell them more about the evils of the Jews man Tell them What the Bible really says about the Sons of Abraham

  266. A word to the wise…I dare say it will go unheeded.

    If you want people to read what you write, keep it simple. Remember we are all igoramuses here…or should that be betzpaenic.

    When I read:

    “a form of symbiotic v symbolic interactive homogeneity which ex[presses] itself in terms of unilinear evolutionary theodicy but loses faces when it comes to a reasoned form of Durkheimian functional determinism…”

    I nearly swallowed my false teet steupsing. I doubt even you know what that bunch of piffle means.

    Thank God for the Page Down key. Nobody needs that kind of pseudo-intellectual crap.

  267. Georgie Porgie

    Inky
    You not betzpaenic man.

    Your Betz cells seem to be working just fine. (At least some LOL ) Just teasing.

    It has been said by some one IF YOU CANT BAFFLE THEM WITH YOUR BRILLIANCE DO SO WITH YOUR BULL SHIT.

    Terrence having been promoted to a bar raiser must prove he is worthy of his rank. The brilliance bot working so he working the bull shit! That not working either. Clearly he has read or heard of certain books so he has to try to impress us.

    However, he is not advancing or defending the positions he espoused when he started the blog. Even if I have to do it my self I will be on him like corns on policeman boots. I will match him paragraph for pargraph LOL

  268. Georgie,

    It is not bias, but you do have it right, we have not the slightest doubt that you are best positioned to handle this nonsense.

    For the record I have mocked the rambling incoherent drivel of TMB many times.

    Someone posted a parody of TMB in an earlier thread. Frankly, I was unable to distinguish it from the real thing.

  269. @All… If I may please share a tangential point…

    Yesterday (Sunday) my girl friend and I were preparing dinner for seven (7) invited guests.

    The census people (two (2) of them) suddenly manifested, and wanted to ask us some questions. We welcomed them in and answered their questions while I finished the very complicated Tamago Yaki (Japanese Omelette) for the sushi promised.

    Two things which struck me during the interview:

    1. They asked if we had Internet at home? Yes. They then asked if it was ADSL or dial-up. I then asked “what about wireless”. They said “You have to have ADSL to have wireless”. “Incorrect”, says I.

    2. They later asked me my religion. I first said “Agnostic”. Not on the list… “Buddhist” says I. Not on the list… “Jedi” says I (this was a joke). Not on the list.

    At the end of the day, my religion has been recorded as “none” (since it was on the list, but there is an important difference between none (read: atheist) and agnostic) and my Internet connection has been recorded as “ADSL” because it was also on the list as an alias for “high-speed”.

    IMHO, those who designed and approved this questionnaire should be fired — this expensive exercise (only done once every ten years) is missing important metrics….

  270. Georgie Porgie

    OK Mr NS Sir
    You may leave the witness stand and deposit two Banks malts and two Plus to my account Sir!
    I will give you a fair share of any money Low down gives me for the conversion of TMB’s BS to methane.

BU welcomes your comments: comments on the site do not always reflect the views of BU.  For more information checkout our Comments Policy at the top of the page. If you see an error report it, include a link to the story.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s