Posted by Ping Pong as a comment to BU blog – National Insurance Board Responds To Public Concern
Stephen Lashley, Minister of Culture
In the last week, newspapers report that the government has made two assaults on the concept of the citizen’s right to property. The first assault was the attempt to pass the Antiquities Bill and the second, the declaration to compulsory acquire the land of one person so as to benefit another citizen.
The situation with the Antiquities Bill is extremely disturbing. The Senate raised many cogent questions about the bill which were accepted by the Government senators. It strikes me odd that Minister Lashley, who is an attorney, could not recognise the constitutional issues raised by Senator Newton and neither could any of the other 29 MP’s (i.e.both BLP and DLP) when the bill was passed in the lower house. That the bill (in identical form) was first presented by the previous BLP administration is testimony to the lack of any philosophical mooring by BOTH political parties to defend and act in accordance with the Constitution or any other publicly stated set of values in the interest of the common good other than expediency, appeal to the lowest denominator and laziness.
To reinforce my disquiet, today’s newspapers report that the Government intends to compulsory acquire part of the property of one individual to make available to another private interest. This is an unsettling use of the State’s power to compulsory acquire property. To my knowledge, such power has been exercised to the direct benefit of the public i.e to allow the building of a school, heath centre, police station, roads, public housing etc. That this power is now to be exercised to the benefit of a privately operated company is a most curious development.
However, laudable the intentions, the words “thin edge of the wedge” comes to mind.
This smacks right on to dictatorship;which of the government ministers have a share in “B’s” ? You can’t take land from a private citizen to benefit another private citizen, but what makes it worse is they are competitors!!!!!!!!.
The DLP is behaving like the BLP in their third term in office, they have become VERY ARROGANT. Therefore that scares me for the failed bill just sent back to the lower house, there is no where in that act that can stop the government from walking into my house and taking what they want; THIS IS DICTATORSHIP. We the voting public MUST put a stop to this runaway arrogant attitude this government is developing; it must be nipped in the bud.
First they tricked us by the talk of lowering prices and we voted for them, then prices went through the sky; I’m still awaiting that shipment of fruits and vegies that the Late P>M said was loading when he made his maiden speech at the opening of this parliment. Then the Finance Minister said he would not raise the rate on property taxes, but then we were tricked again, he double the value of the property,hence many people are paying twice as much as they paid before. Now they want to invade your house and remove ALL the antiques our great grand parents left for us This government STINKS>
Why was this bill brought back after being shot down under the last government?
Could the time of the CPO been better spent drafting the FOIA and Integrity Legislation?
This bill also stated that if you have something over fifty years old you will have to take a photo of it and send it to the museum or whosoever that is in charge. Well I am going to send some photos of myself posing real sweet fuh dem., might even skin muh tail at de camera too. Stupse. This bill is a whole lotta shoite…if dem did really concern bout Antiquities why didn’t they do something with Sam Lords. Dem feel day people gine come running forward to tell dem bout what dem got in their house dat old? Well everyone over fifty should do like me, send dem photos mooning.
Several years ago, a friend of mine had her house demolished by the authorities claiming that they were taking her land for the sewage project in CH CH. Well she happened to talk to someone who worked for that project and asked why they wanted her land. She was told that was not true that they had looked at plots in that area and decided that they would not be suitable. she then asked for a letter stating that. She was doing some volunteer work for an International agency and while in the basement a box fell. A UN pamphlet fell out, it was about women and minorities around the world whose rights were being violated by Governments. She picked it up and read it. She had the ammunition she needed to fight her case. She made some investigations , she learnt that it was a private individual was behind the acquisition of her land. She got a lawyer and promised that this case would go to the International Court in the Hague if they had to, well they backed off. She now has to rebuild her home on that spot. We are living in very dangerous times. We have to pay attentions to the type of people we elect.
@islandgal
Do you concede there is a need to protect the history of Barbados?
David the history has been lost a long time ago and whatever is remaining has been left to decay!
When they went begging for Bridgetown to be made a world heritage sites this bill was one of the things they promised they would implement.
Something is really wrong in Barbados. First they want to give our NIS dollar to private investors now they are using the law to take land from a business man, not to build a school or pavilion, but to give to another business man.
We were told all sorts of things to get up to vote for this government but EVERYTHING they said they would do they have now turned around and done the opposite. It has gotten to the point now that none believes anything any government minister says. Ask Mr. Burns at Redjet. All the while we have a lame duck Prime Minister who seems not able to control his ministers
We do not need a law like this, what is needed to educate the population about the preservation of our history. To also encourage them to donate / loan to the Museum. Forcibly taking peoples properties / things will only make enemies. Many of our antiquities have long since been exported to all parts of the world. Whatever is remaining , remains here because they are locally owned and treasured by the owners. What this might encourage people to do is not to report anything and go underground to protect their belongings. The Antiques shops here have very few true antiques today , many are replicas and some are downright rubbish passing off as antiques.
When we collect all of the peoples’ jewelery,silver and heirlooms we could always sell it to the Trinis, like we did the nation’s bank which was born out of the Post Office Bank.
Talking about preservation of our history, what has been done to improve Bridgetown,the Garrison and the island in general since we were accorded the status of World Heritage Site, except for a lot of hot air from our politicians,absolutely nothing. I would not go into details, but a walk through Bridgetown and its environs, will give the word SITE a new meaning.
Sec 12, p.12 of the proposed bill seems to be the cause of the out cry.
Sec 12, p.12 of the proposed bill seems to be the cause of the out cry.
Looks like a page from Stalin’s “dekulakization” programme in the Ukraine and the North Caucuses circa 1929.
This is the result of having a Delinquent Leaderless Party.
Most frightening that the Antiquities Bill made it past the lower house filled with lawyers, who should know better, to be rejected by the Senate, thank gosh at least someone has half a brain.
What kind of jackass drafted a bill that gives free reign for a government official to enter private premises whitout a justifiable warrant.
Wunna joking?
Or yuh think because bog countries get away with ignoring rights y’all could do it too?
Anyone loooking to my proeprty without my permission is a trespasser and will be dealt with accordingly.
So, even if passed, only an idiot would take that job. Wunna would learn where barley grow.
Suppositioning I had an antique cricket bat and said official came to my property DEMANDING it?
He would get it…………and would have to get it extracted by an expert used to dealing in suppositories.
“today’s newspapers report that the Government intends to compulsory acquire part of the property of one individual to make available to another private interest.”
I feel like running a department store and I feel like having it located right on Broad Street. I’ll ask my MP or my party to compulsorily acquire the ground floor of Cave Shepherd for me so that I can run my competing business right there.
Or so that I can run a successful supermarket I’ll ask my favourite MP’s to compulsorily acquire for me the new Carlton Supermarket that is being built in Black Rock, and while they are about it acquire the store’s customer list for me as well.
so that I can run my store without first putting in 30 years of effort and hard work.
Why work hard when I can get my favourite MP’s to fix up things for me.
I have in my posession at least 4 items (all with provenance) a document (60 years old) a utilitarian/decorative object (more than 100 years old) a piece of furniture more than 100 years old, another more than 60 years old and even though I can see why the government would and should forbid me to export or alter or destroy these items I don’t see why I if I (b) make a false statement to the Director as to the existence, location or discovery of an antiquity, an object that reasonably appears to be an antiquity or relic is guilty of an offence and is liable upon summary conviction I don’t see why in my old age I should be should be subject to to a fine of $100 000 or to imprisonment for a term of 2 years or to both.
If this bill passes I expect to spend the rest of my old age at Dodds.
And by the way what if my grandmother gave me these objects because she appreciated that in her old age I wiped her behind for a dozen years?
We know that most MP’s spend no time wiping thier grandmother’s behinds.
It’s really sad and a total disappointment that the current political directorate and their bureaucratic minions are the products of free Secondary education and in most cases free University education. If this is the result of EWB’s & Cammie’s gambling experiment may God have mercy on our souls! There is a saying: “Cheap things no good but Free things worst! Is this what the hardworking people- many now dead and gone- gave their sweat, toil and tears to produce? Those cane field workers, servants and maids, lightermen with their “goadies” from lifting 100 lb bags of sugar and committed teachers of yesteryear who made untold sacrifices to educate this bunch of arrogant and pompous band of “fiddlers” dressing up as black minstrels and misleading the people they ought to be serving and helping.
I feel like selling fast food, so I want the government to acquire all 14 brances of Chefette for me. If they do they will never have to worry about finding money to run their election campaigns agian.
If they fix me up good, I’ll fix them up good too, for life.
And I don’t care if them is “B” or “D”
David
Thank you for posting a copy of the bill. I have read it and I really can’t believe that our members of parliament could have become so arrogant. No right-thinking person could possibly defend the excesses that the Government proposes to legislate in this Antiquities Bill. This bill sounds like something that would be done under Mugabee not Freundel.
By the way, “relic” is defined among other things as
(i) is a botanical or any other organic remain
(j) is a human remain
I really don’t know what they are. When a person dies, what’s left are called “REMAINS” LOL
Front page of the Weekend Nation screams, “LAND ROW Businessman to fight Government’s acquisition” and as if to say a picture is worth a thousand words they juxtapose a picture of Col. Muammar Gaddafi. I would have expected this type of behaviour from Gaddafi not from an elected government of Barbados.
World Heritage Site
Gave the Ministry of Culture something to brag about, actually kept them busy for a while. Now what are they up to? Why are they receiving salaries again?
“Where the Director receives information or believes that an antiquity or relic exists and that the antiquity or relic is being kept or has been discovered on any private premises” This Cummings woman now got real power …
So how she gun approach all dees relics in Parliament and on BU (like Random)
What is puzzling is why the government would try to push this bill through the House with little changes reported having been done to it.
The other point of note is that it was the Senate and not the Lower House where the bill was stuffed. Some on BU have expressed concern at the size of the frontbench which makes groupthink that much easier.
The winds of change are upon us from sea to shining sea . Power Corrupts! Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely. So get from behind your monitors get in touch with your rep. Scream in their faces . Take a page out of OWS. Stop cowering down. forget all the Talk! and intelligent get down and dirty in front of the Pariliament building after all your propety is under seize by YOUR GOVERNMENT. The one who promised to SERVE and PROTECT. We can become the oversight committe.
CANT you people see that this Government is doing some very questionable things that seem to defy commonsense and that seem to question whether the Government wants to be relected?
CAN such actions as this Bill, the unnecessary pressure on pensioners with reference to the change in the drug formulary/pensions cheques to the bank and now the VAT on complimentary tickets along with all the other draconian measures introduced since 2008 and the poor handling of economic matters generally WIN this Government the next election ??????????????????
JUST ASKING
JUST ASKING
WHAT DO YOU THINK ???
JUST ASKING
WHY dont Freeduel Stuart call elections like how Jamaica’s new prime Minister is calling election????
WHY doesnt he hand over to Sinckler who would become Prime Minister and then call elections like in Jamaica??????
JUST ASKING
@ac
The bill is stalled again this time under the administration which followed. In there is some learning for the people on the quality of governance.
It should be interesting to listen to the VoB program on Sunday morning to a well put together panel – Minister Lashely, Dr. Henry Fraser et al.
In May of this year Minister Sinckler – Finance and Minister Lashley – Housing visited B’s to “give their support”. Now we know why two MP’s neither with responsibility for the environment were there.
After the cameras left and behind closed doors the “deal” for the expansion of B’s was done. The meeting went something like this:
Bynoe – I see some land up the road I like.
Sinckler – That is why I brought along Lashley, as you know the Government brek, but Lashley tells me he can use the Land Acquisition Act to take the land.
Sinckler – remember if this gets out blame Thompson. Everybody loved him and since he’s dead he won’t be able to defend himself.
Why would the present administration try to pass a bill like this one ? Dem feel Bajuns foolish? That is political suicide ! It is either dem reel stupid or dem ent know dem fronts from dem backs. Stupse…… This bunch is a dangerous bunch of people who are willing to legalize thiefing. Bajans pull wunna breeches up and start sharpening wunna blackleads. Mek sure wunna reddy tah cast wunna ballots. ONE TERM AND DAT IS ALL !
AC I agree we got to get in front of parliament and tell dem how we feel. This Government has really lost their way.
Excuse me. the Gov’ment never professed to having a way …
As I understand it, right now if you discovered arawak remains, or say slave artifacts on a construction site, there is nothing preventing you from taking them home, keeping them or even selling them to someone outside of barbados. As far as I understand a person doing this would not be doing anything illegal, and no one really has the authority to investigate or do anything as there is apparently no legislation.
I am told that this bill is not fundamentally different from that passed in Jamaica and a number of other countries.
It is certainly legitimate to debate the details of any bill and seek to protect citizens. But I am not sure I am happy about the above-mentioned state of affairs either.
Are some of those protesting loudly in possession serious artifacts?
@TE
It is understood that we need legislation to guard our treasures of historical significance. The national interest must always precede that of the personal.
In Barbados what we have is a very narrow band of people who stand to be affected.
The issue is Sec 12, p12, how can this be redrafted to make the role of the Director of the Museum more palatable.
I can live with that discussion, unfortunately thats not really the issue thats out there.
@TE
Agree and it is why the government should have learned from the debate which took place under its predecessor.
Isn’t this what good governance is all about?
One may recall that much of our cricket audio and video recordings can be found in England and not Barbados or the West Indies.
We need to slam the door shut because history making never stops.
To me a major underlying issue is the reporting style of the main stream media.
The media seems content to print stories without providing readers any sort of background or reference points. I am used to media stories providing resders with some sort of background to an issue rather than simply reporting the views of particular individuals. So much of our “news” is simply, so and so, said this or that.
I have given little thought to the issue of antiquities and know little or nothing on the issue. By printing the comments of those opposed to the bill and providing readers with zero background or reference information, the intial and possibly lasting impression of the bill has been shaped around the worst aspects of the bill. Instead of the journalists doing background research on the issue, the persons on the other side of the debate must now come out and do the journalists’ work for them. We have actually allowed the media to place the onus for informing their readers on other parties.
Obvious questions that could have been researched and included in the article with the various comments would have been whether or not any caricom countries have a similar bill, are there similar powers, how has that been handled, what has the experience been and so on.
@TE
The government in this case is to be blamed and directly Minister Stephen Lashley whose responsibility this falls under. He would have had an insight into the kind of comment generated when the BLP led the bill and he has repeated, ignorance. Coming to the public after the fact has when negative sentiment has taken root makes the noble objectives of the bill secondary.
To me the media does its thing the way it wants to do it and then blames affected parties for poor PR management. The reporting of this issue hardly smacked of a constructive attempt to highlight issues with a view to improving the bill. It has come across to me as a good story to sell papers and another opportunity to give the government a black eye.
The antiquities story would likely never have been reported simply as he said, she said in the NY times without any sort of background and context around the comments.
We have little or no idea what context the Minister provided to the bill, the media has not provided it. The thing only became a story when some high profile persons made comments that made good copy.
I am told that the nation has not even asked the museum for a comment on this issue. If this bill had passed with little opposition, we probably would have heard very little about it and any positives, whether the ministry had highlighted them or not.
I guess you are right David, in this media environment persons should spend a disproportionate amount of their time on PR,and do the media work. So much for the real work they have to do.
Personally, I find the “call and response” journalism disappointing.
@TE
Sound bite journalism is here to stay. It mirrors a society which filters almost everything in dollars and cents and the political.
BU David wrote “In Barbados what we have is a very narrow band of people who stand to be affected. ”
Not so David.
Almost every Barbadian family will be affected by this legislation. as the legislation defines relics and artifacts as anything over 50 years old, so we are not only talking Arawakian or slave or old plantation relics here.
David I am just an ordinary, black working class Bajan, but right there in my kitchen cupboard is my mother’s 70+ year old handmade motar and pestle, make by a Speightown mortar and pestle maker. Mortars and pestles are are an important part of our African culinary heritage. They are an important part of our culture and our language. Where do you think the saying “there is more in the mortar than the pestle” comes form. Do you think that a younger generation who has never seen how a mortar and pestle works will understand what that saying really means? I don’t know that anybody is making mortar’s and pestles anymore. I don’t know that since the advent of electricity they are used in Bajan cooking anymore. I certainly don’t use mine. But it is mine. It does not belong to the state. I may want to give it to Little JOhnny when I did. I may not want to give it or sell it to the state. The state did not help my mother to acquire it or to maintain it. Our family has kept it safely for 70+ years. Who is to say that the state will do a better job that my mother and me have done?
And the legislation in intended to reman on the books in perpetuity, so anything yu buy now may in 50 years time become an artifact and can be seized by the government.
So suppose you buy a carving form the Rastaan in your village, and in the future rich peopl start collecting and exporting ths man’s art, in 50 years time the carving yu bough for $20 may be worth $2,000 or $200,000 and the state will have the right to seize it from your children or grandchildren. And I don’t see anything in the legislation about the state paying a fair cost for the item(s)
I think that w e fool ourselves if we sit at home abe believe that this egislation only affects the rich white peopl on the plantations. It has the etential to affect al of us.
For example if yr great grandfather went to Panama and helped to build the Canal and once a month for 10 years he worte home to his parent or girlfriend or wife and those letter were kept by that perosn, those love letters now more that 100 years old may be an important resourse for historians who are researching the Barbados migration to Panama, and the State will have a right to seize then under this legislation
@Random Thoughts
The debate we are having about this bill reflects our immaturity about the need to preserve our history and heritage. If we don’t have trust in our government who is elected by the people then our focus should be on fixing our system of government instead of displaying selfish tendencies.
David the page is being troubleosme at my end, sliding away from me so that I cannot edit. So sorry for the posting above which clearly I would have edited if I could.
There are many media outfits that their sound bites and much more.
For example, a certain well known economic commentator continues to make claims about the level of public sector employment since 2008, which a certain newspaper prints, despite public information to the contrary.
In the 1960′s some people who wer said to live on the “base” in St. Lucy came around rural Bajan villages encouraging people to sell their old and old fashioned furniture and to buy new and modern.
My paternal’s grandmother’s Bajan mahogany 4 poster bed was sold by a cousin that way. The bed may have been almost 100 years old at the time, and would certainly be 100+ years now and is likely sitting in some other people’s museum or stately house far away alledgely a part of someone else’s heritage. The replacement bed of course did not last as long as a snowball in hell.
Recently Little Johnny made a statement that caused me to see that Little Johnny although very well educated, studied history uo to university and thing, even so Little Johnny does not understand Bajan domestic history. Little Johnny believe that my siblings and I had been raised sleeping on the floor. Little JOhnny did not know until I told mhim that even my grandparents even though rural working class Bajans had good mahogany furniture, maybe because the family for years produced a number f carpenters and joiners, who had access to one of Barbados’ finest mahogany woods. We must not forget David that most of Barbados fine mahogany furniture (and Barbados’s stately homes) were made by the hands of our black craftsmen. So we must not fool ourselves taht we were nothing and nobody.
So we must not fool ourselves or allow othere to fol us that we were/are nothing and nobody and that we own nothing of artistic, cultural or heritage value.
I gaurantee you that almost ever Bajan family owns something, a letter, a documnent, a lamp, a vase, a mortar and pestle, a chair, a bed, and old fashioned pint pot. a steel yard weighing instrument, that is covered by this legislation. Our grandparents may not have owned pearls (and it scares me that the Minister of Culture so misundertands the situation) but they al owned and cherished and took really good care of almost al of the items that are of value in Barbados’ domestic history. Not pearls, but furniture, joi
Not pearls, but furniture, tradsemen’s tools, juke boxes, chattle houses etc.
@ Trained Economist:
If the provisions of the Bill are innocuous and Bajans have nothing to fear why did the Senate delayed the passing of the Bill and referred it for review and comment? It was not the Press who attempted to scuttle the legislation nor the opposition since they don’t have the numbers to do so.
Or are you implying that those appointed sages do NOT know what they are doing?
Quoting BU David “If we don’t have trust in our government who is elected by the people ”
But David you know as well as I do that the people get the government they deserve, and you know as well as I do that democracy is not a flawless system (and no I don’t know of any better system either) but democracy is not perfect and sometimes we the idiot people elect an idiotic government, and so in general we don’t want to give any government to much legal authority over us just in case a few years after the election we realize that we have made an asinine mistake and need to throw the rescals out. We just don’t want the government encasing us in a piece of legislation from which therre is no escape.
And David it is folish to trust your government more that we trust ourselves.
And David this legislation clearly shows that our government does not trust us to tkae care of teh god stuff our grandparents left to us and teh government is saying let us do it for you and my questinis why?
The debate has already been shaped.
Could the ministry have gotten out in front of this, maybe, but I doubt. Without the negative and salicious angle I doubt the nation for one would have been interested, they hardly reported on what was said as the bill went through the lower house..
It is typical for the media and persons to take the best or worst aspects of an issue to make the case for or against the issue, thats the way we tend to argue issues in BIM.
Without someone or some body having powers can we protect artifacts? We can have a debate on what constitutes an artifact?
Do the provsions of the bill follow acceptable international best practices as those by the BSS? A slightly sophisticated newspaper would have raised issues this like this as aprt of its story?
Newspaper stories without background and context is the norm, “news” is he said, she said, research is a foreign language for the nation newspaper for sure.
My own research suggests that the powers in this bill are mild compared to those in egypt. But they haev a lot of relics.
Davis I am a person who likes to look around me. Som eyears ago in Austraia and Canada the governments of those countires told the native peoples that they were not good enough to look after thier own children, notwithstanding that the native peoples of Australia had been looking after thier own children for 50,0000 years, and in Canada for more that 20,000 thousand years. Some shite missionaries came along some of them priests and nuns who never gave birth to nor raised a dog flea in their lives, next thing these people who thought they knew better were beating and sexaully abusing and starving the native people’s children’s and depriving the children of thier parents care and lovce.
So no David I don’t believe that my government ofr the Director of teh Museum can take beter care of my fgrandmothere’ stuff than I can.
@Random Thoughts
You know nowadays it is all about greed.
Quoting Trained Economist “Without someone or some body having powers can we protect artifacts?”
Maybe I should call myself educated historian?
The someone who is currently protecting my family’s artifacts is me. And before me was my parents and grandparents and great grandparents. We don’t need an incompetent government someone. Why do you feel that somebody would be better that us at protecting our own stuff?
Tell me trained Economist which idiot it was at CBC that destroyed the video tape of Barabdos’ 1966 Indepentendce flag raising ceremony. And don’t tell me that the original tape exists, because I know for certain that it was taped over because some idiot maybe a trained economist made a dscision that it was old and we are short of tapes or money to buy new tapes and we will tape over the only original tape of our Independencr ceremony that existed. The tpae currently used by VBC is a put together hodgepodge when the idiots reaized what they had done.
And you are telling me to trust a government or a body?
The same government and same bodies that oare truly incapble of taking care of one of the most important items in Barbados’s recent history.
Don’t take my word for it. Ask CBC, or ask the MInsiter of Culture?
@TE
Where have you been living? Do you expect reasonable objective reporting from the typists masquerading as journalists? Some of the provisions in the bill may certainly be debatable (one wonders what the LOO and his two able assistants one a former AG and the other a prominent lawyer were doing).
The museums of the “important” cities of the world and the private collections of rich individuals are filled with treasures looted from poor nations. Even a European nation (Greece) is still trying to reclaim the Parthenon Marbles taken to London by Lord Elgin in 1812. Recently I read where the US returned a statue to Italy (after it protested) when a private collector tried to sell it at auction for millions of dollars turns out that it was taken from Italy illegally. I think there was a thread on BU which dealt with African artifacts in London which the British Gov’t had refused to return to the country of origin. Fact is all countries try to preserve their heritage, how can Barbados protect its heritage if there are no laws governing such?
I have longed come to the conclusion that many comments here are not a reflection of sober thought but are a result of political grandstanding. Sometimes one needs to put country first.
Much of Barbados’ domestic history is still in the heads and hands and homes of black working class Bajans. Maybe the trained economists of this world is hoping that we do not know this.
The history of the big migration to Englind in teh 1950′s is yet to be written.. Who do we think own the hundreds of thousands of letters which were written home?
Historians have barely scraped teh surface of the Panamanian migration, the time when 40% of Barbados’s young men left. Who do you think owns the Panama documents? Although I saw one with my own eyes at teh Schomburg Museum
Looks like some Government members are about to follow to the the letter this bill. They are trying to take some old relics out of the House………Namely Gline Clarke and Rawle Eastmond and some whispers of Owen.
Sargeant understand that I have no objectin to government’s preventing the destruction of or export of Barbados’ cultural heritage. Government should have passed such legislation on December 1, 1967.
But I object to the though processes that says that government can take better care of an object than I can, and that consequoently government has the right to permenently deprive me of such object, and that government is under no obligaton to offer me compensation.
So if government discovered an oil well on my roperty should I move out and let government and the oil companies take posession and should I expect nothing in return?
December 1, 1966. Day after Independence.
David can I call myself Educated Historian, even though I may neither be Educated nor Historian?
Random Thoughts
I on to you like flies on, well what ever flies like to be on … You really expect foolish people like me to believe that dey had videa tapes back in 1966 …? Now wah kinda idiot you tink I is?
@Sargeant
Your last comment hits the nail squarely on the head. One wonders who feel most threatened by the legislation, the Professor Frasers and the like? i.e the collectors
In other words the original would have to be pun somet’ing else …no?
Sargeant
What heritage has Barbados got that could be so important … a couple of clay pots in the ground and mahogany furniture? You don’ think that this whole thing is a “necessary” distraction?
re:defamation=they will only go for sobs who speak their mind eg ^bafp
Trained Economist:
“My own research suggests that the powers in this bill are mild compared to those in egypt. But they haev a lot of relics.”
What a quantum leap! How can you ever compare this little rock where the original (Amerindian) artifacts and relics have already been destroyed or plundered with Kemet? May Amun Ra forgive you!! A civilisation going back thousands of years and the birthplace (other than Sumeria) of many modern-day cultural, religious and political art forms and mores. Egyptology is a discipline in itself undertaken only by the bright and gifted.
Trading in Egyptian relics and artefacts- whether legal or illegal- has been a massive business over the centuries, involving billions of dollars and collectors of all kinds from Napoleon to Hitler). You must have heard of Howard Carter and his patron Lord Carnarvon?
It’s stretching it a bit much to expect Barbados to have ‘draconian” laws and regulations regarding the handling and protection of the few relics that stretch back less than 200 years. Most of the relics that existed in the old great houses have already be looted and exported to countries with more ‘sophisticated taste for antiques, e.g. England. The legislation should be tightened to protect those relics and antiques already on display, e.g. Sunbury House and the other great houses bought from overseas or made by local craftsmen.
egypt has a lot, we should be very protective of the little we have.
@Sargeant
This maybe the link you referred to in your comment.
I have traced my house back to the 1850′s is that now a relic? De rocks dat de house build wid are relics? So I havta sell it tah de Museum or de Govement?
Gimme $2 million and we can talk !
@ trained economist:
“egypt has a lot, we should be very protective of the little we have.”
I am all for the protection of the little relics we have in the Island. But I feel that this care and protection is best left to Old Joe Citizen and family as convincingly pointed out by Random Thoughts in an earlier thread.
If the government can’t even maintain or forced private citizens to maintain buildings of historical and architectural interest how we expect them to care and look after antiques and relics taken by them. By the way’ antiques require tremendous care and attention if there are to remain” attractive antiques”- no pun intended! Who is going to take care of these relics while they are the subject of a administrative matter or court case?
More so, the government and its executing agencies can’t even enforce the run-of-the mill or day-to-day laws and regulations. How can we expect them to police and enforce this piece of “sophisticated” legislation the breaking of which would most likely involved more sophisticated professional criminals like the CLICO and similar white collar violations.
@BAFBFP
What heritage has Barbados got that could be so important … a couple of clay pots in the ground and mahogany furniture?
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Looks like the Gov’t wasted a lot of that “free” education on you.
The history of Barbados didn’t start when the Portuguese first landed on her shores or when the English followed them, or when the slaves followed. It was settled before and although much of the remnants of the original settlers has been destroyed what should happen if an enterprising Bajan decided to explore some caves ( and he would have to be enterprising cause Bajans aint going into any caves) and discovered some artifacts left by the Caribs or Arawaks? Should he be allowed to sell them to the highest bidder? Or should they be in a National museum where they right fully belong?
I think you should write Freundel a cheque, in the memo section write
“ repayment for free education”
Awight awight Sarge,
So potery found in caves is more valuable than pottery found in the ground… The Arawaks and the Caribs leff their stuff all over the Caribbean so if you don’ find them here yah bound to find them elsewhere.
I ain’ writing Freundel no cheque. I want Freundel to be a man and stand up against the international monetary system and propose to take Barbados and the rest of the region in an alternative direction. See wah gun happen to him … regime change my brother, and fellas like you calling he a i’grant dictator who deserve wah he get …! (Now who the free education get wasted on Sarge …?)
@islandgal246
I have traced my house back to the 1850′s is that now a relic? De rocks dat de house build wid are relics?
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“Don’t look back something may be gaining on you” (Satchel Paige), you never know what’s around the corner but I live in an area which although incorporated into a larger town some die hard locals still refer to as “The Village”. In my not so infrequent walks I see some houses with plaques noting the year of construction.
They are designated as Heritage Homes and the owners can’t change some elements of the construction without the approval of the municipality. When you buy one of these homes you buy it with the full understanding that this is the way things are, we live in a “tear down” world so many things are destroyed unnecessarily. I have seen whole buildings being moved by massive trucks replicating the moving of chattel houses in Barbados circa 1960’s because they stood in the way of developments and the Gov’t stipulated that they must be preserved “as is” and relocated at the developer’s expense.
Sarge
By the way,
Freundel is a Relic
Owen is a Relic
George both a dem is relics
but Ronald is a DEMON!
I got the basis for a calypso fah next year …
Hammy want Lashes
Steven want Lashes
Michael want Lashes
but Ronald is a DEMON
What is a necessary distraction and can Part 2 of the bill be considered as such. Some of people on this blog want to to do away with the present system, But then again it makes one shudder as to some one of the nonsense REf: Baf says .
Part 2 of the bill if one takes it at its word one can’t help but wonder what the government is thinking. People have a right to be outraged. Well then the writers of the bill might have been stoned drunk or very high. they are no provisions included or exemptions. Part 2 is as written is as clear as the nose on your face.Btw my nose is 102 years could that be consider as relic or antique
BAFBFP “… You really expect foolish people like me to believe that dey had videa tapes back in 1966 …? Now wah kinda idiot you tink I is?”
Sorry not video tapes, but reel-to-reel or whatever recording mechanism was used in those days. It has been taped over and what we see now is a hodge-podge. If you doubt me ask the MInister of Culture to ask (1) if the 1966 flag lowering and raising ceremony was tape recorded? and (2) and if so what has become of this tape recording?
And these are the same people who want authority to take our stuff?
Quoting millertheannunaki “sophisticated professional criminals like the CLICO ”
Nothing sophiticated nor professional about what went down at CLICO.
It is just that we Bajans too like to believe the financial fairy stories.
We forget our plain old common sense and let people fool us that there is such a thing as $10 million dollar “a letter of comfort”
Instead of asking wha da?
We ler people fool us into believed that if the Minister of Finance writes off a $19 million dolllar debt to the Turf Club that is not the same as having $19 million less in the tax pot for our other pressing needs.
And we pretend that we can’t ask.
Why?
And how come?
@ David
You asked: Why was this bill brought back after being shot down under the last government?
Because the government is on pause, and after being on recess they needed something to debate on resumption.Two new pieces of legislation in nearly four years, and guess what the House is yet again on break.
Random Thoughts
You can’ tape over reel to reel, I think I know wha’ you gettin’ at but it don’ mek sense accusing without a technically sound position …
Up to the late ’70′s there was an original 1927 or thereabouts Ford Model A car still running about. Since the death of the owner in the ’80′s ,there is no trace of this car. It was probably shipped out in a container to the USA or Europe. Its relics like these that we also need to protect and preserve.
Trained Economist
You are coming over as a trained apologist for the Government. I don’t care how many countries have similar legislation, this bill is plainly and simply very bad law. I understand the Minister to be saying, never mind what the bill is saying: it is not our intention. What happens when the Minister is dead and gone and there is no one left to say what the Government intended. I guess that people would have to rely on the actual words of the legislation. I don’t think that we would have to wait so long though: the words of the bill are pellucid and that is what the courts would enforce.
When Government has collected all the family artefacts: they will come after the family jewels. However, I will have to protest because even though mine are over 50 years: I am still using them.
I think Caswell Franklyn should be banned for indecent behavior
it easier to beat up mon me than to deal withnthe issues
mileranu atleast you seem to be reading my comments but do not blame mr barrow for free education it originated from wynter crawford’s congress party and was introduced bt the grantley adams govt and expanded by the barrow govt with mr tudor as minister of education. i have a pit toilet and i was thinking of onating it to mr antiquites lashley collection but on second thought i would keep it because the way things going i might have to resort to using it sooner rather than later.
Sarge…… The government is not really interested in preserving old houses it seems they are after stuff they can easily carry in a truck or pocket. My ole house wouldn’t interest dem at all. I have even found some ole coins h’a pennies and some wid King George pon em. Eff dem want dem, dem cud come and get dem. Dem somewhere out in de yard. Found one wid Queen Victoria too. Ah gots some antique bottles too ah find when fixing de roof of de out house, seems like dem did likes dem likker in dem days. Oh and ah thow out de double seated latrine seat dat ah found in de latrine dat de wood ants got to. Oh shoite ah got more tings too but ah ent saying nuh more .
And de rasthole dat Hant tawking bout paintings dat de poor peoples can’t buy should be fuh de public tah see. What paintings? Wid big fat white men an wimmen? Or de prints wid de African slaves toiling in de fields? Prints I say because de originals are back in Hingland in some Manor owned by de decendants of the slave owners who owned the plantations. And wha happen tah de tings in at Sam Lords? Axe Grant whet dem is, dem did burn in de fire?
understand the dilemna we are in -i am appalled that in this enlightened day and age so called bright intelligent men as their contributions on the forum sggest will be willing to give more power to a bankrupt discredited political form of governance becuse of their allegiance to a political organisation. shame on them.
Caswell I accept and conceded from the outset that if there are problems with the bill they should be dealt with.
My argument since has been that I don’t think we have had a discussion on any specific details of the bill that need fixing, which would have been useful. What we have had is a rather edgy and almost destructive critique. I
I don’t feel much more educated on the issue and I think the media let us down. They provided little or no context to the stories they ran. henry Fraser did a much better job in the advocate this morning.
EVen a potentially technical debate about obscure antiquities bills descend into a partisan political cuss out,from whcih I have learnt little so far.
Well trained economist. Must one spell out in details what previous governments and present intentions are. Where is the oversight committe !BTW read what Karl Watson said in the Advocate today! maybe it would open up your eyes a little. Being pretentious and partisian is not the way to go
Trained Economist
The media would only let you down if you expected better from them: quite frankly, I don’t. The print media is about selling ad space: broadcast media is about polluting the minds of our youth as their first objective and next they are about selling ads. My suggestion is that those who are interested in the debate should read a copy of the bill, as I did. After reading the bill I became very fearful because of potential abuse of people’s rights that can flow from a strict interpretation of the words of the bill.
I have even considered voting for the DEMS in the next election, but now I am having second thoughts as a result of this bill and the proposed acquisition of land at Vaucluse. A WORD TO THE WISE IS ENOUGH.
ac, I want you to point the partisan and pretentious comments I have made on this thread.
Seems like on this blog now that if you don’t join the bandwagon and rubbish every and anything yu must be partisan.
Caswell,
what do you understand to be the intent of the bill?
what specific changes would you like to see that would achieve the intent while addressing the concerns raised?
As Caswell has been saying over and over, the INTENT of the bill is of no relevance. What is important is the EFFECT of the bill.
And THAT is to empower a government to seize private property based on arbitrary guidelines which in any event, they decide.
How much debate does itbtake tonsee that as idiocy?
The significant point to note here is that a Minister of government who is a lawyer, seems to see it fit to support this bill based on “his government’s (present) intentions.” LOL
@Bush Tes
To be fair to the Minister he indicated that the language will have to be tightened.
Why it will take over 5 years God knows.
Did the Government or the museum pay for or facilitate the restoration of the Montefiore fountain located on Coleridge Street? By the way what is this heritage conscious Government doing with either the old Supreme Court building or the old Public library?
It was interesting to listen to the question when asked of the minister whether the urgency to pass the bill had something to do with the world heritage site designation. He said absolutely false but in the next breath suggested that the legislation was important as a result of the designation to preserve our artefacts/heritage.
Good dear bush tea, surely someone of your intellect saw that ghe question about intent was a lead in to the questions on the specific provisions of the bill.
IG246
Don’t throw out the old coins especially the Queen Victoria piece you may have the monetary equivalent of the Penny Black from British Guiana. I used to collect coins and currency years ago but I don’t anymore. Among my collection are two US Silver Dollars from the 1860’s, some vintage Canadian Dollars pre Bank of Canada from the 1930’s and some US currency including$1.00 & $2.00 bills which have “Pay to the Bearer in Silver”. I think I will visit Washington DC and request my silver. (BTW many Americans don’t use or accept $2.00 bills because they were considered unlucky and some Americans don’t even know they are legal tender) The US no longer print notes requesting an obligation in Silver.
I had forgotten about those “two holers” latrines, could you imagine the conversations if they were both occupied at the same time
.
Back to serious matters the bill in its present form has some flaws and should be amended but we shouldn’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Sarge………. ah done check de Vicky out, it ent worth much at all except fuh de silver. Dem did mek nuff ah dem so nuff in circulation wid collectors. De ole money ent in good condition at all, dem does turn green after dem gets clean and dem did mek nuff ah dem too. I keeping de Victoria wid me and let any body cums and tells muh to give it up. I gine swallow it and mek dem pick through muh shoite eff dem want it sah baddd. Ah gots nuff ole money we did uses tah use before Bubayduss get dem own money. Nuff pennies and cents, lawd dem did real heavy, nuh wonder in dem days when yuh gots change yuh had nuff money.
Ah wonder what de conversation was like in de double latrine…..” Percy yuh here? Ah gots tah jobi baddd but please doan stink muh out doo.”
@ TE
LOL. Man what intellect can a bush man have? Besides low…
Bushie’s attitude is that the Government have absolutely NO idea of how to address the many REAL problems that we face, and instead are looking for some “things to do”.
…things like Bridgetown Heretage site; looking to waste NIS money in 4 seasons,CLICO, Marinas…etc
…they are just like the previous government in this regard – but nowhere as bad yet…
The bill is flawed in it’s very genesis.
The very idea of the Barbados Government taking responsibility for valuable antiquities????!!! Ha Ha Ha LOL Give BT a break!
It would be many times easier, cheaper, more effective, and of course simpler, to introduce a system which provided incentives for owners of such items to have them registered, valued and possibly shared with the schools, tourist, community.
This whole old-fashioned approach, where (apparently half drunk) civil servants conceptualize such simplistic legislation and then have politicians foist it on the public is this expensive and wasteful manner, is outdated and useless.
While there are numerous avenues for national debate on these matters through the mass media, the web and through polls, we continue to see such nonsense as this and the recent NIS bank deposit debacle wasting time and resources by having to be corrected post event.
So BT is not even interested in the “provisions” TE…
What provisions what??!!
@David
To be fair to the Minister……
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As man David, you are indeed a special human being…so generous.
How you mean he indicated that the language will have to be tightened?
When was he planning to do this?
If anyone noticed the scam?
After a ten-year court case?
At the first ammendment?
The challenge of writing good law is to make the effect of the language match the intent of the legislators. Courts only consider intent if the language is unclear or ambiguous.
Bushie would have expected a lawyer to have the kinds of questions that were raised in the Senate well before allowing the draft into the lower house.
But hey….
Should we blame the minister in this case or the CPC Shirley Belle who is apparently welll versed in drafting?
Bottomline this bill is a nice to have for Lashley given the world heritage designation.
It explains why it was dusted off and sneaked through the lower house but no such luck in the upper house.
I got a rare antiqu ‘cat’ dat still purrin n pukin when touched gently. De guvament cud sen Donville, Freundel or Estwick ta colleck dis ‘cat’. Jess lemme kno when dem cumin. I hay waitin.
Purrrrrrrrrrrr
IS Bonny Peppa a serious person ???
balance
I am liking you bad bad bad.
Just Asking
Serious as a heart-attack.
purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, meowwwwwwwwwwwwwww
but trained economist did you accuse others in one of your earlier comments of taking the debate into a partisan political cuss out? or accusing people of political partisanship should be left to you alone.
caswell, your comment’ i have even considered voting for the Dems in the next election’ what a shame and to tink i was looking to you to spearhead my campaign for chance in governance. am i to understand then that your comment -’the problem in this country is simply that politics has polluted everthing. to the politician nothing is sacred ‘- at 10.30 pm oct 17 under the ‘the politics of smoke and mirror’ was only serious commentary but meant to pollute as well. i hope not because i take your comments seriously.and do not lay the change of heart at the door of this bill which is but a storm in a teacup.
i meant to say was not serious commentary delete only and insert not
Balance
Do not look to me to spearhead any campaign for a change in government. I have been around long enough to realise that as long as our present model of governance remains we will only see a change of actors. We would only be swapping one set of misfits for another.
My comment about considering to vote for the DEMS have nothing to do with support for that party: I do not, nor do I currently support the BLP. I was once the campaign manager and election agent for the incumbent in St. Thomas where I reside. As a result of what I have experienced from her I would sooner die than vote for her again. That is why I was contemplating giving my vote to anyone who opposes her as opposed to not voting. Unless there is a third candidate in the race my choises would be limited to the DLP candidate and not voting.
My change of heart about whether or not to vote would be influenced by the contents of this bill, whether you like it or not. I find it repulsive and then the second strike is the attempt to take away land ostensibly for public purposes and giving it to Bynoe because he wants it: that is also repulsive. If the DEMS continue in this vain I will stay at home on election day wearing only sack cloth and ashes.
“I got a rare antiqu ‘cat’ dat still purrin n pukin when touched gently. De guvament cud sen Donville, Freundel or Estwick ta colleck dis ‘cat’. Jess lemme kno when dem cumin. I hay waitin.
Purrrrrrrrrrrr”
Bonny yuh got tah send a pickture of dat pussy fuh dem to see befoe dem cum and inkspect it.
The ship of state is about to flounder on the rocks,and the Captain and his henchmen are busy saving the the treasure chests.