Reverend Joseph Atherley | Dr. Esther Byer-Suckoo
In a debate on Voice of Barbados (VOB) this afternoon, the two main parties got the opportunity to discuss how it intends to roll out its social investment policy. Visitors to Barbados Underground over time would have arrived at the opinion that we are firmly of the view that the success of any society is rooted in the need to practice ‘old fashion’ values. A common theme of our articles has been the preponderance of focus on economic strategies at the expense of policy formulation effecting social capital. One of those values which we have been speaking out about is the willingness of modern governments to fashion policies based on lifestyles or what the technocrats call relativism. One lifestyle behaviour which has taken on a momentum of its own is the issue of homosexuality. Unfortunately, this issue has taken a political turn, and the consequence of it all is the intellectualizing of this issue which has the potential to interact with others to destabilize our small societies.
Barbados Underground 
Georgie Porgie
You need to cool it. Usually I value your insight and thoughts but you seem to be missing home or something cause you have become real hyper ever since the date was announced for elections.
You do not have to keep trying to defend yourself. Write your convictions and then let it be but you here quarrelling with somebody. We all hold positions even if they are on the fences of issues therefore there must be disagreement.
Keep to the high road. Come home and vote if you are eligible. Stop arguing in cyberspace. It is like fighting ghosts.
When I first read these thoughts of David’s I thought that it would have been one of those articles that would get zero comments, but look where it gone. And no real answers have been forthcoming. Know why? We ain’t got any. Leave the people alone, we all have got issues too.
Kadri
The bible does not contradict itself, but it does restate itself.
The NT writers all knew the OT Scriptures like Leviticus very well. Hence Paul and the others referred to the OT in their speeches.
In fact my quotations in Romans is very germane to the law as given in Leviticus.
There is a saying the OT is in the NEW revealed; the NEW is in the old concealed.
Proper discussion of OT scriptures involves comparing them with the new. Romans does not contradict Leviticus. It expands on it. You are obviously not a serious Bible student or Bible scholar.
Re now i mentioned common sense aint education, i never mention knowledge, now if u gonna tell me that education is the same thing as knowledge
TO BE EDUCATED YOU MUST RECEIVE KNOWLEDGE OR INFORMATION.
Dont you think that a BSc and an MBBS from UWI are real degrees?
One last thing, I heard my priest say he would never like to have been gay. He remembers his organist telling him as a child how lonely a life it was. People are always sniggering and you always feel like an outsider. Do we know if gays are happy with something they probably can’t help? I ain’t know I have never interviewed one but we should always try to walk a mile in somebody’s shoes before we pass a verdict.
I remember seeing a little boy who was not yet eleven with apparent effeminate tendencies and I raised my eyebrows. His father raised him and another son. You know that was over 7 yrs ago. Do you know how pronounced that behaviour is today? Do you really think he would have chosen to be that way? Me? I say my responsibility is to love and God’s own is to judge.
What position you want a government to hold except to allow everyone under the constitution to be entitled to the same rights? I have a dream that one day we will not be judged on our differences but on our similarities. How is that for a dream?
You are correct. I am missing home.
I am not quarelling with anyone. I am keeping on the high road by showing that one can defend their position with out being abusive or insulting.
Adrian
I would like to just come on the forum as I do on valueMd and have fun without being abused. I don’t abuse anyone on the forum. So why should I be viciously attacked my folk who do not know me?
As you opine using the Bible as the core strategy to battle the entrenched gay lobby will not succeed, because most folk don’t read, study, know, believe, or try to practice Bible principles. So I am not arguing a case here.
I just stated what is the major proof text on the issues by Bible scholars and those who rightly divide the word of truth. i.e those who try to interpret the Bible by certain hermeneutical principles..
There are times when according to Proverbs 26: 5 you must answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. So thats what I did in those cases above. I can understand someone agreeing even in thier ignorance, but being abusive on top of that is unacceptable.
Should be I can understand some one DISagreeing
TO BE EDUCATED YOU MUST RECEIVE KNOWLEDGE OR INFORMATION.
so what about those who have knowledge wisdom and understanding and does not have the education?
point……..
you said romans expand on leviticus, thats what i wanted to hear
so now what do you have to say about leviticus 20 vs 13?
Kadri
Those who have knowledge wisdom and understanding and do not have FORMAL education are still educated to some extent.
Education means to learn whether formally or informally. All over the world, much education is informal. The knowledge is handed down by tradition, or learned empirically, rather than in class rooms or universities.
Our parents had merely a primary school education, but could apply what they knew, and were sound in thier wisdom.
Leviticus 20 vs 13 is an important text on the subject. I dont have my Strong’s here to check, but it is probably the first mention on the subject, in which case it is an important verse following the law of first mention.
Our parents had merely a primary school education, but could apply what they knew, and were sound in thier wisdom.
THEY WERE THUS EDUCATED
Note I never discredited your favorite text on the subject. My argument was that persons who engage in certain behaviors do so because they have denied God and God dave them over. That is the plank in Paul’s argument. It is still relevant today.
Education means to learn whether formally or informally. All over the world, much education is informal. The knowledge is handed down by tradition, or learned empirically, rather than in class rooms or universities.
point well taken, so you see, there is no reason to have to go to the extreme and get so hype then telling us all your academic achievements bcos we all here who blog has wisdom and understanding just like you.
regardless how much qualifications you have, to me your on the same level as a man who has none except for the resume sheet.
and my point still stands, if the govts in times past upheld the laws of the bible as they were, dont you think homosexuality would have been in the closet still.
honestly, it upsets my stomach when i see two women or two men that close, even to think about it is nasty.
its the govts of years past who are to blame to allow this into our society, and yes even the ones we have now.
like i said b4, they will never go against it because one, some of them are gay and two our politicians are scared to stand against other world leaders
Kadri
I had to state my academic achievements to indicate that the person who called me dunce etc was wrong. I produced facts to show that I could not be a dunce. You have to take my statement in its context.
I never denied your point that governments should uphold Bible laws. I believe the Bible and feel that all should try to live by its tenets. In fact, Great Britain became great in a period when many of its leaders were Bible believers. (Some one will ask me to prove that next). Also the British Commonwealth started its declension when it committed an act of anti-semitism contrary to the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 12)
So we are not at all at variance in our position on this matter or on Leviticus. The points you are making is well described by the passage in Romans that I quoted in agreement with you from the very beginning.
If you read that passage over and over you will see how Paul develops his argument very logically.
Anonymous // January 7, 2008 at 2:13 pm
When I first read these thoughts of David’s I thought that it would have been one of those articles that would get zero comments, but look where it gone. And no real answers have been forthcoming. Know why? We ain’t got any. Leave the people alone, we all have got issues too.
==============================
Bajans are passionate on this issue. take a look at http://www.barbadosforum.com topic 46 at
http://www.barbadosforum.com/index.php?showtopic=46
476 replies and 9,000 + views over 3 years.
Does anyone get the sense that the BLP has forgotten how to fight an election campaign?
China vs. Taiwan:
How is this an election issue? How is this a Bombshell? Does the average undecided person care for either of the two?
what is the charge? that Taiwan is bankrolling the DLP election? how does this match up to China bankrolling small business? Remember Mia returning from China and giving us the impression that she has access to the china’s bank account, that there is chinese money to be had by Barbadians? Why should i not view this and the use of the China state corp for contruction at break neck reduce prices, and the granting of military wear to our BDF as China’s way of ensuring that we do not side with Taiwan in it’s bid to be free from colonial rule? Don’t we have more in common with Taiwan as our circumstance re. 1966 would suggest? If Taiwan is funding the DLP who is funding the BLP? somebody has got be funding them too. I fail to see either party putiing on the show that they have so far with whatever financing the treasury per the law provides to each party. Is this a red herring ? Kite flying exercise? I think so.
I warn Barbadians that Owen in breath telling us how difficult it is to govern and to do so for 3 terms and that he unlike Errol Barrow when face with a similar circumstance has kept the faith rather than take a sabbatical. We can remember how long before Errol past away after making a successfull comeback, we remember that a similar thing happen to Sir John Compton, and by GOD Owen is looking a lot like Sir John. Send home Owen to rest. he clearly needs to detox.
ADRIAN
On the matter of election funds from Taiwan or Chinese we must understand that if perhaps Owen was promised funding from sources and if the funding has not come forward, one conclusion he might naturally have is that it went somewhere else in Barbados where the donors thought it would be more useful.
I only speculating and joking.. I dont have any facts LOL
i am a blp supporter but fair is only fair.
if taiwan funded the dlp campaign what is wrong with that?
Kadri // January 7, 2008 at 5:51 pm
i am a blp supporter but fair is only fair.
if taiwan funded the dlp campaign what is wrong with that?
==============================
ha ha ha ha It has not been proven by the BLP that this is the case, and the DLP has denied any such thing. You not seeing anything wrong is all fine and dandy i suppose, but there are no facts to suggest that it did occur.
Georgie Porgie // January 7, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Kadri
I had to state my academic achievements to indicate that the person who called me dunce etc was wrong. I produced facts to show that I could not be a dunce. You have to take my statement in its context.
==============================
GP let your comments speak for themselves, recalling the number of paper throphies you have accumulated can make some fence sitters to this argument really wonder. 😀
Adrian H. that is a interesting link http://www.barbadosforum.com/index.php?showtopic=46. Dey is too much rebuttals to read one time but some of them make a lot of sense.
Ok Adrian I will behave as you suggest, because if I had quoted Proverbs 26:4&5 the chap would have even been more incensed.
david i serious, i dont know why politicians pick at some stupid things like who funded a campaign
when nigel “bounty” pinder fund campaigns nobody say anything except for the police who talk about it behind closed doors after bounty spill beans.
adrian sorry, my bad getting confused wid my msn contacts now
Georgie Porgie,
“The fact that homosexuality was one of the common features of the factors associated with the fall of the great civilizations of the world; i.e The Babylonians, The Persians, The Greeks and the Romans cannot be denied.”
RUBBISH! I challenge you to produce the EVIDENCE of that in each of those four cases.
If you make the CLAIM then you should provide the EVIDENCE.
~B~F~P~E~
This is where the Homo debate on the Barbados forum takes on a bajan context. It is a good to read because this will give you a context within which to view a PM Mia Mottley should a BLP parliamentary team form the next government.
http://www.barbadosforum.com/index.php?showtopic=46&st=60
adrian i scanned there and saw something like “i live in barbados and there are no gay priest there” hmmm,
i know of one gay priest here who now is in belize working under the ministry, for those who dont think there are gay religious leaders, think again, and those who think we dont have gay PMs think again, everywhere there are gays, and wa mek um worst, they are even in our homes when we think its only outside our doors.
The truth of the matter is that over a perlonged period of time the muscles in the rear end collaspe rendering impossible for one to hold their stool becos of the constant damage to it. Bleeding also occurs hence the need for ‘diapers’.
Any doctor will be able to tell you the rear is for a specific task only. Eliminator not an intaker.
E-coli bacteria found in a person’s throat comes from oral sex which comes from someone unproctected penis.
So much for alternative lifestyle.
and the truth shall set them free
Clearly the BLP has abandon the truth detector, and in it’s place is the half truth amplifier.
Cherry…you hit the nail on the head…
this govt supports that nasty behaviour…have you ever noticed how uncomfortable most of those male ministers look sitting in those hard chairs in Parliament…especially Barney..batty-bwoy..!
this govt would have loved to legalise homosexuality…my only thing to say on the matter is…if Owen and Mia went ot bed..who would put who in de bake-fowl???
I must stick a pin here and begin to side with some of the contributors in wondering how come certain posts go up and not others when CLEARLY the one above me is most inappropriate, not for the subject matter but for the use of certain terms.
I would like to briefly address an earlier comment which said Jesus loved everybody so we should love everybody.
We need to really sit down and read the Bible for ourselves. Yes, Jesus loved everybody but he did not love the sin they did. Jesus NEVER suppported unrighteous behaviour/ sin.
Every true believer of Jesus Christ MUST not condone legislation that supports homosexuality.
It is wrong.
What exactly you saved from? You need to recommit your life to God everyday as far as I know and ask for forgiveness. You think you are different from the homosexual who is in need of salvation just like you just because you are not homosexual? All around us we see the effect of sin; in the children born out of wedlock; the persons in prison for their various crimes, the scourge of HIV, divorce, alcoholism, and the list can go on until eternity.
While I believe that homosexuality is a sin I cannot see how it can be termed a crime when it is between two consenting adults. I also believe that pre and post marital sex is a sin but you have not seen that on the law books as a crime.
It can only be a crime in the same way as rape where it is forced upon the unwiling participant.
I don’t know where you would get the impression from the comments here that someone was condoning homosexuality. I have not observed that, but then you probably smarter than I am.
Dear Anonymous,
Please allow me to explain what being saved means- I have been forgiven by Jesus of my sins and separated unto God which is what every born again christian should be according to the Word of God.
What I was saying is that when Jesus forgives and saves, people are converted and are never the same old person again. Their entirely life is changed and they can no more agree with sinful behaviour. Therefore, Barbados as a christian society cannot support any sinful behaviour in our nation. By extension, we cannot inact legislation which supports prostitution or homosexuality.
When we begin to change our legislation to accomodate these types of behaviour we are going into territory of outright disobedience to God as a nation.
In the Bible when God wiped out the entire earth except Noah and his family- what was listed as one of the abonable acts against God? Homosexuality.
What is listed as one of the main atrocious acts in Sodom and Gomorra? Homosexuality.
This why this nation has to, as a body, say this is wrong.
I hope you come to understand what I am trying to say.
God Bless,
Saved
Since when Barbados is a theocracy? We change legislation for the good of the nation and not to please the Bible. Since when is the Bible the constitution of Barbados? In the case of the gay people, (who by the way had no choice in how their sexuality evolved) legislation is needed to give these citizens the same rights as heterosexual Bajans. Afterall, these people deserve to live in peace, harmony and love in a functioning democracy such as yours, and for you to mix church and state in the issue of human rights for all Bajans whether homosexual or not is indeed dangerous territory. Supposedly there are Guyanese coming over there to work, and not all Guyanese are Christians, some are Hindus, Moslems, Buddists, Bahais, and so on, therefore, these non-Christian Guyanese will face discrimination in Barbados?
I want to say that I think Adrian Hinds is a Guyanese. The reason is the writing style. There is something Guyanese in him, about him. Now this Dr. Esther Byer Sukhoo, she looks Guyanese to me, but she could be Trini or St.Lucian.
There is Barbados sitting all alone in the Atlantic Ocean, the most Eastern of all islands, so I am thinking of sending a few of our night people to spice up things in Little England. Cassandra can interview them on Chatting and then you all can come here and comment. Hi Cassandra, if you are reading here. Girl we hope to see you in GY for Fashion Week.
SAVED YA GOT UM RIGHT, fornication was never an abomination, but homosexuality was, is and always will be.
who put homosexuality and fornication on the same level, something gotta be wrong wid dem head.
I was one of the first to research how AIDS was presented when it was first discovered. I am also an expert in homosexual causation. I can assure you that homosexuality is a very bad sexual choice. It is bad because it kills. Though most cases of HIV are now heterosexual, it is only because gays passed it on. Once homosexuality is legalised it spreads like cancer and HIV increases greatly. Do not let government legalise what is clearly a nasty lifestyle. As has been found in the UK and USA, once you legalise it, gays bring in many more even nastier sexually immoral things… pedophilia is waiting around the corner!
Dear David,
Would you please consider this is a new thread?
The basis of hatred, intolerance and discrimination is ignorance.
This comment from “Dr K. B. Napier” about homosexuality and pedophilia is not only designed to perpetuate hatred, it is so wrong and ignorant that it could be dangerous if those who may be vulnerable to pedophilia are distracted by it.
So, while I am a married person with kids, and am comfortable in my heterosexuality, let me put the facts about homosexuality and pedophilia.
“There is no medical evidence to suggest an association between homosexuality and impaired moral judgment.” – Journal of the American Medical Association – Pediatric Forum, March 2001
“It is ludicrous to identify pedophiles as homosexuals.” – Stan Robson, Chief Deputy, Benton County Sheriffs Department
(In over 14 years of Robson’s work with pedophiles, 498 out of 500 offenders identified themselves as heterosexual.)
“The vast majority of offenders are heterosexual men. Male offenders who abuse young boys maintain adult heterosexual relationships. The habitual molester of boys is rarely attracted to adult males.” – Roland Summit, M.D. Head Physician, Community Consultation Service, Harbor UCLA Medical Center.
“The belief that homosexuals are particularly attracted to children is completely unsupported by our data. The child offenders who engaged in adult relationships as well, were heterosexuals. There were no homosexual adult oriented offenders in our samples who turned to children.” – A. Nicholas Groth, Ph.D., Director of the Sex Offender Program, Connecticut Department of Corrections, and Co-Director of the St. Joseph College Institute for the Treatment and Control of Child Sexual Abuse
Additionally, in their article entitled “Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation”, the U.C. Davis Psychology Department concludes:
“The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.”
The above statements from experts in the field speak volumes about the inaccurate and misleading statements trying to equate homosexuals with pedophiles.
Blinded by such statements many people do not know exactly what homosexuality and pedophilia are. One need look no farther than one’s own dictionary to discover the difference between the two:
ped·o·phil·i·a – n.: a mental disorder which belongs to a larger group known as the paraphilias. In pedophilia, carnal lust is disconnected from adult “romantic love.”
ped·o·phile – n: an adult who actively fantasizes about, or engages in sexual activities with prepubescent children.
ho·mo·sex·u·al·i·ty – n.: a sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the same sex.
ho·mo·sex·u·al – adj.: Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
molest
This is not to say that there are no pedophiles who are homosexual. However, to make the blanket statement that all homosexuals have a propensity towards pedophilia is false, misleading. The fact that homosexuality has nothing whatsoever to do with pedophilia was also recognized in the U.S. Federal Court system. In the United States Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit, in the case of Equality Foundation of Greater Cincinnati, Inc. vs. City of Cincinnati, a bench trial was held where the judge made the following findings:
* Sexual orientation is a characteristic which exists separately and independently from sexual conduct or behavior.
* Sexual orientation bears no relation to an individual’s ability to perform, contribute to, or participate in, society.
* There is no correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. Homosexuality is not indicative of a tendency towards child molestation.
* Homosexuality is not a mental illness.
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