Credit: nzherald.co.nz
One example of how the PEOPLE can be encouraged to participate in a democratic system of government is to follow what is currently unfolding in New Zealand. Starting today a referendum which asks the question “Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?” will run until August 21, 2009. The laws of New Zealand permits New Zealanders under the The Citizens Initiated Referenda Act 1993 to propose a referendum albeit the outcome is non-binding on the government.
The reluctance of successive Barbados governments to use referenda to feel the pulse of the people before making very important decisions should be questioned. The day maybe coming to an end soon when the people allow a small band of politicians to make all the critical decisions which are likely to impact the lifes of current and future generations in a far reaching way.
In Barbados we can cite several policy positions taken or left hanging regarding LIAT, CARICOM and CSME, Republican System and others where the involvement of the people may have yielded a different result. BU suspects the act of spanking a child is an one which many parents in Barbados believe is their right to exercise as part of imposing discipline. Countries in the developed world which have intervened between parent and child by establishing laws which stop parents smacking THEIR children have not to our best observation yielded any noticeable positive result compared to other countries continuing to utilize corporal punishment methods.
Very soon Barbados will have to face the issue of whether parents should be allowed to smack THEIR children given our willingness to sign on to international agreements. There is the ridiculous situation in the USA of children being encouraged to take THEIR parents to court. There will always be pros and cons to the matter of whether inflicting corporal punishment (smacking) by parents is the right way to go. In cases where there is abuse relevant agencies can be accessed to determine the best decision in the circumstances. Why should the state dictate to a parent on this matter?
One lesson which Barbados can take away from the citizen initiated referendum currently underway in New Zealand is the importance of an active citizenry in a democracy to ensure the government and the PEOPLE are on the same page. This is all the more important where the power of recall does not exist.
Barbados Underground 
David, on the matter of referenda, they have never been a part of our constitutional culture…if we need them to be, then we must agitate for them; politicians in office are reluctant to share power unless constrained to.
Re the smacking of children, the violent solution is embedded in our psyche, hence there will be understandable reluctance to change. I am not so sure, however, that you can make a valid comparison between those countries which allow it and those which do not…How do you measure the results? It’s essentially about the use of violence towards another human being, not about the effect on the country, whatever that means.
Dave, it’s interesting uv raised this now because just the other day I was sitting beside this beautiul Sudanese-looking woman with a lovely young daughter about 3 or 4 and, every few mins. the mother hitting or pinching the young girl, for no reason at all that I could c. She seemed to expect a young child to sit perfectly still, like a dead!! Cheese, I felt like licking the mother, herself but she smiled at me with that pretty face, and asked me the time and seemed to want to be friendly so my heart melted right there in she hand strightaway!! But, tell the truth, I really wanted to kick her backside!! Chastise the child, yes, but not for no reason at all!! Idiot woman!!
Some people confuse corporal punishment with being barbaric or abusive behaviour, and they often say corporal punishment leads to those children growing up being aggressive, and thus not caring members of society.
I am of the opinion it is better not to smack, however there might be occasions when it is necessary, to prevent an action or actions which in the long term might cause more discomfort to the child.
Greater damage is often done – emotional and psychological – to children in households where no smacking is done, as some parents withdraw into themselves in a literal hands-off approach to parenting, feeling smug that they do not smack their children. I am not suggesting all parents who do not smack are thus inclined. However, when the Law is brought into parenting, it must be enforced, this often leads to a fracture in the relationship which is difficult to rectify.
I do not equate smacking with violence which in broad terms means: “intended to cause injuries or destruction”.
Referendums are usually for national issues which affect all in the same way…I am not sure that applies in this case.
@Yardbroom
I thought the definition of violence was the non-consensual application of force to a person…as in a “violent” shove. Your addition of the element of an ulterior intent suits the purpose of your argument, but just think of its application to spousal abuse…” I did not mean to cause her injury, your Honour, I was not violent”
@ Themis
Quote: ” I did not mean to cause her injury, your Honour, I was not violent”
In most cases like the one you have outlined, there are several features. It is often not what was meant by the accused but the outcome of his/her actions, was injury “of any kind” caused?
There is also the question of a “shove” that could be an assault depending on the force used.
In an assault the victim has not even got to be touched if he/she is, that is into the area of “assault by beating”.
The question of “violence” the test would be what would a “reasonable” person think on seeing the action and the outcome of it.
There is also a separate legal term of “intent” this matter is not as simple as you suggest.
You said the: “the addition of the element of an ulterior intent suits the purpose of your argument”… I used a dictionary definition. I will be generous and just say “injuries” but of course the person who did the smacking must have had an intention, perhaps to correct or modify behaviour, but not injure, and did not injure…thus he/she might not have been “violent”.
An adult takes responsibility for the consequence of their actions. A parent bears the responsibility of their child’s well being. A smack to the behind often does wonders to reinforce parental instruction especially after constant verbal explanation and direction has been deliberately ignored.
I am not clear, Yardbroom, on all that you are saying but you should bear the following in mind:
1 If, as you argue, the case turns on whether injury is caused, how do you define “injury”?
2 Whether or not an action is an assault (strictly speaking, you mean a “battery”) does not depend on the amount of force used but on whether that force was consented to. Thus an unwelcome kiss could be an assault/battery.
3 The use of the word “intent” in law is to be distinguished from “intention”. The former is used with respect to some ulterior intent or objective of the offender, e.g. assault with INTENT to cause serious bodily harm. The latter is the mens rea or the intention to do the primary act, e.g. once you are sane, sober etc. you INTEND the natural and probable consequences of your act.
4 Are you saying in your final paragraph that if I should slap my wife for not preparing my dinner, I would not be violent if I merely intended to correct her behaviour and did not “injure” her?
@ Themis
(1) Injure: ” to do or cause harm of any kind.”
(2) Quote:” Whether or not an action is an assault ( strictly speaking, you mean a “battery”) does not depend on the amount of force used but on whether that force was consented to; thus an unwelcome kiss could be an assault/battery”
Response: I do not mean battery, you could spit on someone, no physical contact is made, that is also an assault.
(3) No explanation required.
(4) Quote: “Are you saying in your final paragraph that if I slap my wife for not preparing dinner, I would not be violent if I really intended to correct her behaviour and did not “injure” her?
Response: I would not equate a wife, an “equal partner” in a relationship with a child.
Your action to your wife was likely to cause harm, this has not got to be physical.
However, the test would be to a Magistrate, Judge or an appointed Jury, was your behaviour “reasonable”.
Most of the aforementioned would conclude that you slapping you wife was”unreasonable behaviour” regardless of if you intended to injure her or not.
No, YB, spitting or even throwing water on someone is actually a battery- see Pursell v Horn (1838).
Are you saying now that an assault/battery depends on whether or not your behaviour is reasonable to a judicial officer? Can it be ever be reasonable to strike another adult without their consent?
It is true that a parent’s physical punishment of a child is not actionable, nor a teacher’s reasonable chastisement, but that’s not because it is not violence, it is because the relationship provides an excuse for what would otherwise be an battery.
I raised my sons with licks, kicks, cuffs an bites. So far, so good. They’ve grown into fine young men and no, they are not violent at all. Their father didn’t like using the belt, so some one had to.The same is meted out to my grans if the need arises. So far, so good.
Child abuse is a diff’rnt story. I never abused my children. You get out of line, ‘Brutus’, was always an arm away to pull you back in line.
A major problem with condoning a violent act (and we can have discussions about degree, but they often do not change the basics) is that you need to be consistent and symmetrical. A parent hitting a child has a hard time explaining to a child that he/she should not hit others. Just because oral measures do not help cannot be cause to escalate to contact and hitting. That’s a problem with some policing, where violence comes about quickly to try to exert control over a situation.
The fact that some children can come through life without apparent visible or mental scars is not an argument from hitting a child. Humans adapt and adjust.
It’s interesting that in most so called non-contact sports the sanctions for violent contact are harsh–and intent now tends to be ignored, looking at outcome. So, in soccer, tripping, hitting, spitting, and foul and abusive language, should all get the maximum sanction [consistent application is often lacking too]. So our general view in even such arenas (sorry) is that we must ward against the violence.
If the law is to be involved, then it has to be that if a person wants to file a charge against what is generally outlawed then that should be possible. Hit your child and be ready to face the charge of assault. Why should your own children be party to accepting more abusive behaviour than meeted out to strangers?
We are equating smacking with abuse/assault?
Its not about administering a smack in a sterile manner. A good parent will administer a smack tied to an explanation.
The child is able to rationalize he/she did something wrong after repeated warnings for example.
Let us not allow the lawyers to runaway with this matter by sinking it in legalese.
You can’t legislate personality.
So therefore you can’t legislate how people should discipline their children.
Now abuse is another thing, but there is nothing wrong with a spank on the behind.
Especially between consenting adults …. right Bimbro ??? lolol…
Bonny, licks I can understand but, ‘kicks, cuffs and bites’?!!
OMG!!
Hard Driver, behave yuhself!!
Laaaaaaadddddddddddd!!
I think 6 of the best should be sufficient chastisement! Any further could amount to abuse?!!
@ Themis
It was you who brought the example of a man and woman in a domestic situation of conflict and a slap being administered. I said it could not be equated with a parent and child, which I understood this thread is about.
Quote: “Are you saying that an assault/battery depends on whether or not your behaviour is reasonable to a judicial officer? Can it be ever reasonable to strike another adult without their consent?”
If you wish to resort to Law, then the Courts must decide. Therefore a Magistrate, Judge or a Jury will decide.
Quote : “Can it ever be reasonable to strike another adult without their consent?”
Yes!
In self defence: If the “strike” was reasonable and proportionate to the circumstances.
I used the words “assault by beating” to infer physical contact. I will not go into why I used that term here…but if you wish you may win this aside from the main thread, no hard feelings.
************
PS: My mother used a little tamarind switch, at times she even asked me to cut it for her…she always went for my legs, bless her. I bore her no ill will and throughout my life – on a few continents – I have never had contact with the police…apart from a professional capacity, my children are the same.
These governments are really “pushing the envelope” with their total control mentality. These are the same people who would tell you that spanking is violent, yet in the same breath they are inducting these same children into their military and teaching them how to violently destroy others in distant lands who were never in any way violent towards them. The home is sacred. It is the last frontier. STAY OUT!
@David and YB, sorry for the excursus into legalese but I was merely attempting to argue that the flogging of a child is violence which the Courts excuse FOR NOW…
YB, don’t you think that for everyone, such as yourself, who was flogged and did not have contact with the police, there at least 5 in prison now who were flogged? Or are you telling me that most of our prisoners were never punished as youngsters? I was not flogged and I have not had contact with the police either!
I am a firm believer in the saying:Don’t spear the rod and spoil the child.The Kindergarden students in the US the first thing the teachers taught them on their first day of school is to dial 911 on their parents.The government is the quasi-parent/ disciplinarian. The kids are the adult now and the parents the kids.I have seen kids spat in their parents face in public, curse them out, ( of all ages) physically assault them etc.That’s the type of society you get when the government criminalised parents for disciplining their kids…..called it CHILD ABUSE.I donot condone the extreme violence that some parents resort to in disciplining their child but there is noting wrong with a good strapping when they stray. I live in the good old USA for over 20 years and I have 3 kids and strapping was part of my parental regime and I let it be known to them that the day they dial 911 they can consider the government their new parents. Now today they are productive citizens and are proud of the way they were grounded unlike some of their peers you ended up as another statistics of the criminal justice system.Which side would you rather erred on?
Yardbroom, not only did she beat u, she also made u cut the switch? My god, did she have to humiliate u to that extent!!
I want to add that this is a good discussion and i like how the commenter’s above have done their job.
I don’t want to side step the argument but i was just wondering, what type of punishment is dished out to a parent that is found guilty of hitting a child?
And if we can argue it is wrong for a parent/teacher to hit a child can we argue that all forms of authority be banished from using force? even the police.
I wont have chance to really engage on this but note that in most societies the police and the army are given special powers for law and order and security of a nation. It does not absolve them from accusations or charges (we know the cases of gratuitious violence).
This argument may be about authority and who does or does not have it. But it is also ab0ut whether meting out punishment is to be encouraged or discouraged. If you want to build a peaceful society do you encourage physical punishment or discourage it? As I said above, those who want it will draw a line where it suits, others will draw the line elsewhere. If I had to fear for my physical well being everytime I transgressed then I would be a man living in terror, and that is often how physical or corporal punishment works. Or, its implications are ignored–why capital punishment does not stop violent crime. Look at the evidence and there is nothing to support that capital punishment is a deterrent. So, if the ultimate sanction does not work, then why would milder forms?
@Yardbroom
Need to pick you up on your earlier comment:
There is the oft saying it takes a village to raise a child. The issue of how collectively a society wants to parent its children makes it a national issue. The other point about the New Zealand governance system enabling citizen initiated referendums is positive. So far commentary has not focussed on this point.
@ Themis
I am not saying that you have to be flogged to prevent anti social behaviour. That is not the case, behaviour is better controlled by “parental examples” in the home. They should be constantly reinforced when children are between the ages of 4-6 years. When they are teenagers it is often too late to change behaviour.
We have examples of young boys in Barbados shooting at each other as if it it a game. They are attempting to copy modes of behaviour, which large countries can cope with, but which a small island like Barbados cannot.
As to the prison population in Barbados, the fact is some young men do not want to work; they aspire to positions for which they have had no training or education, but they think a certain kind of manual work is beneath them. They are never prepared to put in the effort necessary to achieve.
Some are only interested in drugs and the quick profits they bring…the misery to society is often lost in the fog.
A buffer of excuses is often given for bad behaviour, and there is sometimes a relative or friend ready to circumvent the law…we will pay a heavy price but the poorest always pay first.
This is not what people want to hear…it is better to blame others.
@ Bimbro
I never felt humiliated, I always cut a “small” switch.
LIB
I donot think that most society used the detterent factor as the most important factor when instituting laws. No form of punishment will deter a person fron steal, rape and murder so to just single out capital punishment does not hold.I said let the punishment fit the crime.
@ David
I posted before I saw your comment.
In deciding which avenue to pursue we have to look at norms in a particular society. What is good for New Zealand is not necessarily good for Barbados.
I could ask how many national referendums has New Zealand had in the last hundred years and how many has Barbados had?
I believe that occasional gentle corporal punishment does no long term damage to children. I am sure they are many who will disagree…I just accept that.
@ Bimbro
I never felt humiliated, I always cut a “small” switch.
*****************
Laaaaaaddddddddddddd!!
Yardbroon, u in silly r u!!
Laaaaaaaaddddddddddddd!!
Yardbroom
I’m sure you will acknowledge the wisdom (and brilliance) of your mother i.e. you were fully involved in preparing the consequences of your behaviour. When I went to school many years ago the headmaster use to do the same thing i.e. send us to procure the switch which would be used to administer punishment. Looking for that tamarind switch was enough to make us quite contrite so much so that often the headmaster would say “next time I will really use it” and dismiss the offending student.
David said:
The other point about the New Zealand governance system enabling citizen initiated referendums is positive. So far commentary has not focussed on this point.
———————————-
I definitely understand what your saying but I think the best example is actually the Swiss,not necessarily New Zealand.The Swiss governance model is centered around Referendums.In fact should the Government of Switzerland pass a law that doesn’t agree with most of its Citizens it can be overturned by 1 citizen proposing an opposition idea along with the necessary amount of signatures to have it voted via referendum.
In Switzerland Free movement & the Schengen visa rules were all approved visa referendum.
Bimbro,
“kicks, cuffs an’ bites”
You kno how Bonny like to ‘stretch’ de trute sumtimes too. Ya devil.
Zion 1971, Y.Broom,Ready Done,Hard-drive and my sucre-plum Hopi, all those in favor say ‘aye’. Think de ‘ayes’ have it.
A good ‘cut-ass’ never kill a boy yet, might pain fa a while but den it cool down til de nex’ encounter.
“Hard-ears ya wunt hear, own-way ya gun feel”. My motto to dis day.
How if your man applied that rule to you too, Bonnie?
Themis,
I didn’t know that I was my man’s child to discipline. By the time we met, I would’ve/should’ve been well disciplined by my parents however they saw it fit. And trust me, Bonny got her fare share of it from her mother.We’re talking about something completely different when two adults are involved, i think.
Spousal abuse is a different story Themis. We’re discussing children here.
I have a very short fuse when it comes to talking repeatedly to a child about the same thing. Why burn out my throat telling you the same thing fifteen times when you have a cute little behind that can withstand a little pressure the same fifteen times? It works for me.
I second that bonny peppa
Thanks for that Jay.
If Barbados is to improve its governance system and move from the comfort of 100% relying on the politician to ensure a functioning democracy we need to look at how countries elsewhere operate and borrow to enhance our system.
Bonny, LOL!! I sympathise with ur points of view!!
David, why do we always have to ‘borrow’. Could n’t we set the example, for a change!!
@David,Perhaps it can be done via planned shorter election cycles to ensure that any relevant applicant whom would like to reside at Llaro Court would adhere to the wishes of the people.It would also be wise to implement term limits & have set dates for elections in Barbados instead of relying on the acting P.M. to announce such.
Another possibility I was thinking about is the possibility of any Barbados citizen being able to offer a recall referendum towards MPs of Parliament if they are not representing their district as they should,majority vote would be required.
I believe one of the parties in the UK are currently looking at such a thing.
http://ashfordlibdems.org.uk/news/000215/lib_dems_call_for_general_election_and_radical_change_to_uk_politics.html
“”For the first time since the SDP in the 1980’s people are demanding change on a dramatic scale. Following the expenses scandal it is clear that political revolution, not evolution,
is necessary to restore trust in the political system.
“We need fixed four year parliamentary terms. Why should the Prime Minister have the power to choose when you or I vote?
We need the power of recall – much like in the US – where local people can ‘vote again’ if their local representative lets them down badly.
“We also need to change the voting system to check the power of the ‘leading’ party. The opposition should have greater scrutiny powers. Local people should have a greater say
over local decisions and local government should be freed of ‘one size fits all’ targets.
“This agenda for change has been outlined by Nick Clegg MP and Liberal Democrats across the country.”
Power of recall, power to invoke national referenda, power to rescind unpopular decisions, who currently has the power to make these things a reality?
Do people really expect Barbadian politicians to dig holes that they could fall into one day?
Re: Parental Violence
When I was a child my parents, my mother mainly, used to “cut my ass” regularly.
The “licks” would eventually cool, but not the humiliation or embarrassment.
I hated my parents with all my heart on those occasions.
People say that they were flogged as children and it did them no harm.
I think these people are only speaking about physical harm.
I have resolved that I will not inflict those emotions on my children.
There are more effective ways of punishing children available to day.
“And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.”
Ephesians 6:4.
“Smacking” as opposed to beating. should be reserved for toddlers and small children who will have difficulty understanding the effect of their negative behaviour, and then, only if that behaviour places them or others in physical danger.
For the older child where reasoning is possible, other forms of punishment should be attempted.
We as reasonable competent adults, should really not have to hit children.
Meaki
You’re quoting the scripture verses to solidify your argument, which I think this verse in this sense is used in the wrong context.
What about the scripture verse that reminds us not to ‘spare the rod and spoil the child’. Maybe you can elaborate on that verse for me cause I am not as verse as you on the scriptures.
I hated my mother too when I was lashed but that ‘hate’ didn’t last very long, so what????????????????????
@ David you are going along the lines , ” Barbados is to improve its governance system and move from the comfort of 100% relying on the politician to ensure a functioning democracy”
But i would have to agree with Meaki
sentiments “Do people really expect Barbadian politicians to dig holes that they could fall into one day?”
Now my take,The Governing system has worked for us so far because we have been fortunate to have chosen good/not greedy leaders, But it is obvious that if corruption takes hold it would spread through the government like a wild fire.
To put these anti-corruption measures in place would be a nice thing to do , but who would have the power to put such systems in place?
These systems would obviously ruffle a few feathers.
As far as I am concern it is every parent right and perogative to grow their kids in the best possible way they deemed fit without governmental supervision.Apart from the extreme cases of abuses these are the exception rather than the rule.If I feel that my child warrant a good spanking then it is not the business of my neighbours, teachers or government to intervenve. If other parents feel that they can resort to the time- out method as a punishment then that’s their business.The worst thing I hate in my environment is unruly, disrespectful, misbehave kids. I have a lot of nephew and nieces and a few of my siblings I must confess are not worthy to be called parents but I make sure that I am not gonna baby sit or as a matter of fact I do not want no spoiled and unruly kids around me family or not. You grow them that way you deal with them.
Zion bro, please!! I know dis is d liberated 21st century an al dah baloney, but, bro, please!! yuh does doan GROW kids!! U raise dem, even in d 21 st cen. , so bro, please doan use dah phrase again, it’s so inappropriate!! I know u mean well, but, even fuh lil B’dos, yuh does GROW trees an plants but, NOT children!!
Oh dearrrrrr!!
Mus b dem Yankees agin!!
bibro thanks for the correction.
zion, who’s bibro?!!
Laaaaaaaaadddddddddddd!!
No problem!!
Hi David, I think it is time we assess the way the Free Summer Camp programme is going. Rumours of sex, smoking, camp counsellors involved in crime, cursing, and fighting have been reported. police called in at six roads. the evidence is out there….
Anonymous,
“Good ting na cheap, cheap ting na good”.
BonnyP a IittIe swift smack won’t turn a chiId into a victim of chiId abuse. I’m with you on this. I was speaking to a boy of 8 who had just come back from Canada to go to schooI here and asked him which was the better schooI. He said “I prefer it here but Canada is better because you don’t get a Iicking”. The chiIdren of Barbados do as kids do aII over the worId, wiII push the boat out as far as they can get it, and I have noticed that reasoned words, as per modern views of upbringing dont wash here , unIess the threat of a Iicikng invoIve. My own parents had a scheduIe of smacking, rareIy executed. The onIy time you got smacked a sixer was if you came home after dark.
i have read some of the coments and it was very interested to see how some of us view this topic,i know that it is important for a child to be diciplined sometime,the problem is there are many forms of it ,the parent should be the one to choose the most appropriate means to get the desired effect of diciplining the child.
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